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Jenny Fernandez: Bold Career Catalyst- Seizing Opportunities for Success · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Leigh Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today I have Jenny Fernandez.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: She is an award-winning executive and team coach Columbia and NYU faculty and a brand Fernandez.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: She is an award-winning executive and team coach Columbia and NYU faculty and a brand strategist.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: She works with senior leaders and their teams to maximize their impact by becoming more curious, collaborative and resilient.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Her work spans Fortune 500 companies, startups and higher education.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Jenny has been recognized by LinkedIn as a top voice in executive coaching, personal branding, leadership development and entrepreneurship.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: She's a top 30 management thinkers to watch and on Thinkers 50 Radar 2024.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: And among that, she's also the global guru's top 30 in brand.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: She's a keynote speaker, moderator and panelist in leadership.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Her new book, zigzag to the Top how to Master the Habits, behaviors and Mindset to Succeed comes out in 2025.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Welcome, jenny to the Top how to Master the Habits, behaviors and Mindset to Succeed comes out in 2025.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Welcome, jenny, to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, leigh.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I'm really excited to be here today.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: So we're going to jump right into being bold and we've had some fun pre-conversations and you were at the Bold Summit and got to meet many of the bold community and dove into the deep end of bold.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: So what is your definition of bold?
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: How would you define it?
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, no, thank you, really great question.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: So I guess my definition of bold is really playing a big game and being all in in your future, in your community, and really positioning yourself for success.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: And this is something that sometimes, as business leaders, we don't do that we really put the overall business that we're managing ahead of us.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: But we have to remember that if we position ourselves for success, it's not because it's selfish, but it's because it's going to help you amplify your impact.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: So playing big for yourself, Right.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: So, yes, going all in for yourself, believing in yourself and doing it.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Is it always easy?
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: And for you, does it involve any type of fear or stepping into any?
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: You know, like moving forward into something that it's unknown?
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think it's ever been easy, but if I were to think back, I do think that it started with my childhood, maybe how my parents positioned myself.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: You know, we I'm from the Dominican Republic, I was born in the ER and I was there until I was 12.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: And they just decided to take the bold move to move to the US and to uproot our family and to come here and start anew.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: How old were you?
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I was 12.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so one aspect that I recognized that I had was that I was always open to the adventure and when I came here, it was just, you know, having this really great growth mindset.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: I feel like if you're open to learning, if you're open to exploring, then you really allow yourself, you know, for embracing opportunities and welcoming, I think, new experiences, and I do believe that that influenced again other bold moments in my life.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: So definitely being open and curious, I think, is connected to being bold, yes, and being open to kind of what's next, the possibility, the opportunity, the learning, the failure, the success, like it's all wrapped up in one.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: That word possibility is something that again is actually part of my mantra, because sometimes we fear holds us back and frankly it doesn't mean that I love everything, but I put myself and I put myself in opportunities and situations where I'm going to learn, and it will become comfortable the more I do it.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Right, exactly so.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Definitely moving here at the age of 12 was a bold move, not for your parents, you know, for doing that and for you kind of what you had to experience.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Do you have any other bold moments that come to mind for you of like a memorable moment or one of them?
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, no, a hundred percent.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: So another bold moment and this was one that I initiated.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: So I am a lifelong marketer.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: I have been working in brand management and being a brand leader for over 20 years and part of my career was actually working in Fortune 500 companies like Kraft Foods, mondelez International.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: And one of the things, one of the bold moments that I would say you know, lee, that I took was actually to move to Asia.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: I moved to China and I took on an expat assignment and, looking back, I have to laugh because I had never been to Asia.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I moved to China and I took on an expat assignment and, looking back, I have to laugh because I had never been to Asia and I decided, okay, let me fly there one week, let me see if I can, if I can make it.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Did you have a job there?
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: So I was offered an expat assignment, which means that the company was going to support me and relocate me if I was open to the opportunity.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: But frankly, I think it was just really a bold thing for me because I had just bought my apartment in Manhattan.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I had an amazing career here.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: I needed to let go of all the political and social capital that I had built here to start anew, because I didn't really know anybody but the person that I was going to report to.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: She was somebody that I had built here to start anew, because I didn't really know anybody but the person that I was going to report to.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: She was somebody that I had built a relationship for several years and she had been a manager that I had in my prior life at the company.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: But again, it really capitalizes on the importance of networking, because I kept this relationship alive for over seven years, even though I never thought it was going to lead to anything else.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Just really, I love working with her.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: So I thought this is somebody that I want, even if it's as a friend, and it just really again created the opportunity for me to become a global leader.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: So I think, looking back, I think it's one of the best decisions that I made to take that bold move and to relocate, because it actually opened up and it's the beginning of my leadership experience, in the sense that I had to be more of a humble leader.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: I was overseeing and managing the Oreo brand in Asia Pacific, so I had oversight of 13 countries, including China, japan, korea, australia, india, so I was really again navigating new cultures, establishing myself and really ensuring that I was going to be able to influence all of these other leaders, because I wanted to really say hey guys, I'm one of you, my success is your success.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: How do we make this happen together and play a big game together?
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so definitely, I think, not only the travel aspect, but the life.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, you actually moved to another country to build a life, to live there for many months.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: How long were you there?
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Almost three years, oh wow, three years in China.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: So when you came back to the US, what did you do differently?
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Or what do you think that experience, in the sense of setting you on a path or trajectory, did for you in your what's next?
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes, no, definitely, and it's funny because I don't think people realize that when you're in China, there's so many things that are closed off to you, so I didn't have access to Google, to Facebook, to a lot of the social media.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so when I came back to the US, I almost saw that the entire industry had changed, because, while China and Asia were moving so much faster in terms of the business and even influencer, marketing and everything else that they did, the US, I think, was just experiencing entrepreneurship exploding.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: They were experiencing direct-to-consumer as a new industry, and I saw a lot of big companies being disrupted.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: They didn't know what to do.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: So I think it was a wake-up call for everyone and when I came back, what I decided to do was embrace a portfolio career and my shift in how I saw my future, kind of my next self, was really to embrace not only being a great leader at the company that I was at, but really creating that next big phase for Jenny and plan for the long term.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but sometimes people don't understand what a portfolio career is.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: So can you define that for us and tell us a little bit about what are the layers of your portfolio?
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: So the portfolio career is really allowing you to almost like be your own entrepreneurial CEO.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: You know CEO, so having different verticals where you might have different sources of income, different areas of real life that you try to activate.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: So for me, that equated to I continued to be a marketing executive at different companies, later on, most recently a CMO, but I also created my career as a professor.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: I started teaching at Columbia and New York University back in 2017.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: And it's so funny, looking back, that was always going to be how I retired, lee, but I felt why do I need to wait until I retire to make it happen?
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: I want to give back, I want to influence the next generation and I created that opportunity for myself and that was the beginning of my portfolio career.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: I also became involved with actually somebody who you had in a prior podcast, the episode Dori Clark and I joined her recognized expert community and with that I was able to become a contributor to Harvard Business Review, to Fast Company, to Forbes.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: So I created again my thought leadership and continued to expand from there.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Now I'm also a leadership coach, which is my main focus a leadership team coach and that also started when I came back from China where I created my own business.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: It's just really allowed me to explore, to get the right education that I needed a certification to explore.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: You know, to get the right education, that I needed a certification to explore and activate on that aspect and to build a community, and that's how I also joined Marshall Goldsmith community, the MG100.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: So one of the things I hear in there it's obviously exploring and being curious, like we talked about before.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, there's a connectedness, but a separateness of each of those right.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: They may be connected in a way of like I'll use my you know, if you think of marketing, I'll use my marketing knowledge If I need to help someone with brand or understanding social or understand some of the things that we do as leaders in thought leadership, because that can go right across those verticals and it just it just sounds like kind of a nice weaving of things that you're really good at and also things that you really like to do.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%, and I think this is why you know many leaders.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: When I coach leaders to explore, it's really looking back at what passions do you have?
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: It could be a hobby Some people love creating and designing jewelry and that can become part of their portfolio career.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: It's just really exploring areas of your life that you have passion for.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: That would actually bring you joy and maybe you can even get to meet amazing people in that field.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe you can get to monetize it at some point.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: So I think sometimes we're so all in in that one career that it becomes our entire identity, and that is a danger zone.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was definitely all in on one career that it becomes our entire identity, and that is a danger zone.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like I was definitely all in on one, but I never thought I am my title or anything like that.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: But I think what was hard for me was just to think of a possibility outside of the corporate world.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: That was what was hard for me, and then I had to get to a place of pure burnout, which I don't recommend to figure out like I needed to make a change and I think I've just grown so much since I made that decision in 2020.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: And it's just been four years, but I didn't think it was possible to support myself, support my family, make a living off of me, my skillsets, my expertise.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: So, when you're coaching people, how do you help them see the possibility if they're seeking that, or you're seeing them really get to a place in their world where they're really good at their job?
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: You know I was really good at my job, but it was also like at a cost, right?
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: So where?
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: do you start to help someone percolate the possibility.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thank you for that.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: And I think what you bring up is a great point, that it really all depends on the possibility.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thank you for that.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And I think what you bring up is a great point, that it really it all depends on the person and I would say, on the level where they are in their career, because you know many of us, we could be Gen X or older millennials and we grew up in a moment in time where having a one career, one focus, being all in was expectation, was what was rewarded.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: But the world has changed.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Now, even if you are a failed founder, you're like wow, you took the risk, you made it Kudos for you, so the ride is no longer penalized, now it's actually rewarded.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: They actually, you know people encourage you.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: They see it as you have courage.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: So I think what I try to first of all is help them see that, hey, it's less risky than what you think it's actually.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: You know, taking that risk, that step, is actually rewarded.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: It's going to give you an opportunity to amplify what you want to do and to create a legacy that you want to.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: You know, leave behind yeah, and it's a choice.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: I think that's something I think people need to understand that choosing to stay in the role which I had done for over 25 years and and it wasn't like it was all negative there was so much positive at everywhere that I worked.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I think what got negative is when I would own too much, take on too much, take things personal and you know just really you know when you're getting burnout.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Everything is amplified and so for me, like it just got to space in a place I just couldn't do it anymore.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: But I also didn't realize I never even thought about being an entrepreneur.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Like you said, I grew up in a household of you, have a job, you get a role, your head down, you keep going, you get promoted.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: But I think what happened was I did that and I was a chief by 40.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: So I was in the C-suite in my early 40s and I was like what's next?
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Because I'm not just going to work till.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I can retire Like.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I don't live life like that right.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: So I think that was interesting.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: So I made it eight more years trying to figure it out and then just burning out and then going, Whoa, like there's possibility.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So when you think about your Ted talk which you just did a Ted talk, so it was helping Gen Z find meaning in their roles and their jobs Tell me a little bit more about one, how you got to the point of doing the Ted talk and then how you chose your topic, Cause that's such an important part.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, thank you, so yeah.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: So the reason that I wanted to do a TED Talk it's really part of my goals in terms of my thought leadership.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: I contribute via writing to all these great publications.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: I continue to build my speaking vertical and the TED just provides really a platform that gives you the ability to talk about something that is very important, that other right, an idea worth spreading that other people want to learn about.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: So the reason that I decided to write about Gen Z it goes back to I think it was November 2021.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: I remember, because it was around the Thanksgiving holiday when I submitted this proposal to HBR.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I wrote an article, which is very similar kind of topic really helping the Gen Z generation, because right now, we're seeing that they're very disengaged.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: They are challenged in many ways in terms of being a multi-generational workforce and feeling rewarded.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: So obviously, as a professor, I know that and I see that face-to-face when I teach as well.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: So this is something that I felt that we need to talk about more and more, because, unless we help the generation and frankly, and the reason that I felt that we need to talk about more and more, because, unless we help the generation and frankly, and the reason that I say that and I'm going to answer because some people might say well, why we need to help them?
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Nobody helped us.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: It's because they have really been impacted by many different environmental things that we didn't experience.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: You know, they're the first digital native generation that they have cell phones and social media since the age of 12.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or earlier, yeah.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Can you imagine having grown up in a place where you're basically in a bubble where you have everyone is looking at what you do?
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: You need to measure up or you are, you know, experiencing FOMO.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: You're being criticized, bullied and then other cultural, I think, shifts that they experienced was this idea of also helicopter parenting with Professor Jonathan Haidt from NYU.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Stern does amazing research and I really admire his work because he highlights that the fact that we were trying to be so overprotective of our youth that we actually may have decreased our ability to be adaptable and resilient, so when they face problems, they may not know or have all of the tools to negotiate, to problem solve, to reduce conflict, right.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: So I think, again, what I propose in my talk, which I really, again, I would love to integrate into a book or a second book, is this idea of healthy friction.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: How do we in the workplace create healthy friction at work so that we are ensuring that our Gen C, who's going to become the next leaders?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: You know, by 2029, they're going to be over one third of the generation in the workforce, so they are the next leaders how do we ensure that we're preparing them to be successful, to be resilient, you know, to deliver at the core of what they can do, because they have such great passion, purpose.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, they have been more involved than any other generation in so many social issues, you know, from climate change to social justice.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: So it's just really I feel again very passionate about ensuring that we do the best we can to help them out for success.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about that word friction.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, so when we feel that friction and let's just use the generational friction right, when you feel that friction between the generations within a workforce, so let's just take coming back into the office, so people say you have to be back.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: That's one just came to mind of like I bet that causes friction between Gen Z and probably Gen X 100%.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: So, from the perspective of that, how do you healthily work through it?
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Is it communication, is it advocating, is it sharing the best ways to work together but also having compromise?
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: How do you unravel that?
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: a little bit with that particular topic, how do you unravel that a little bit with that particular topic.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, fabulous topic.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Frankly, I would say that it goes back to autonomy, because if the companies mandate something, then people feel why are you making me do something?
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: If I am doing my work, I am being my best self, I am creating the outcome that you want, but you still want to physically see me and micromanage me and put me in a bubble where you basically there's no reason to watch me.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: So it goes back to don't just mandate it, communicate it in a way.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: In terms of this is why we would like you to be in the workplace and then create the conditions.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Are we in the workplace to create a better culture?
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: So then create the conditions for a better the conditions.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Are we in the workplace to create a better culture?
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: So then create the conditions for a better work culture.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Are we in the workplace to collaborate and innovate?
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Then have those kinds of meetings.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Again, don't just do it, because it feels that it's just an outdated work culture and more of that control and command way of leadership versus an inspiring way of leadership.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: And what Gen Z really wants and frankly, all generations want, it's just that they're more vocal than the rest of us is that we want autonomy, we want to be able to have aspects of our life that we can self right, that we can self-direct and, you know if, having some kind of flexibility in terms of location, even if it's having a hybrid option where, yes, we go to the office in the moments in times where we are going to create that culture, when we're going to connect, because I have been in offices where I'm literally the one sitting in a room by myself and it's like I could be sitting in a room at home working and not having to commute two hours a day to be here.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: So it's just really, again, understanding at the core of our humanity.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: We all want connection, we all want to grow, create the conditions that are going to help us be our best and also have the understanding and treat the individual as a mature person, saying I'm not here to micromanage you, but I want you here because I want opportunities for mentoring, I want opportunities for learning.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: I want opportunities for learning, I want opportunities for connection.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a misunderstanding around Gen Z that they don't want connection, they don't want community.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: But I think it comes down to they want to create the community the way they want to.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: They want to connect in the spaces and places they want to connect in, and it's usually not in an office.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: So I think that's something that's come up.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Is that accurate of like Gen Z's anti-community?
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: I don't think it is.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, not at all.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: No, they.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: I think that actually the opposite, they're very, very connected to the point that they don't need physical connection to build that through relationship, to be connected.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: They can do it online, they can do it through social media, they can do it through email or Slack or whatever other communication, but they actually do want to have physical contact and physical connection.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: So the hybrid approach is actually the best they can offer, because they want them entering.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: They do feel that their education hasn't adequately prepared them for the workforce, so they do want to learn, they want to catch up, but they also want to be respected and included and have a seat at the table, because they do have a lot to say.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, imagine, as we are at the brink of the fourth industrial revolution, why wouldn't we tap the most diverse, the largest generation that is going to be the next leaders of the future and the first digital native generation, to help us really find what the new way of work is going to be?
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: So I feel like, again, it's a missed opportunity.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: So let's create those meaningful connections.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, figuring out how to work together.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: How to, you know, cohabitate this world together.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: We're still working on it.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: So, with all the folks that you've coached, the leadership coaching that you do and the service that you provide, which is incredible, what are some of the common challenges you're seeing senior leaders or leaders in general, and, if there's a difference between a senior and someone who isn't senior, like differentiating what are the common things that are coming up in some of the coaching sessions you're having?
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thank you.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: So I keep seeing kind of three themes.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: One is what we just discussed, basically that multi-generational friction how do you coach, how do you give feedback which is actually an article I just got published in HBR, which is how do you give feedback to an employee that may not be performing?
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: You know, one of the challenges that we see because of all this generational friction, the middle managers just look at it from a different point of view are being really challenged because, since the pandemic, there is an increased emotional wellness challenges that you see at work.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: There's just more challenges because you have boomers demanding one thing and Gen Z demanding another, and nobody has prepared them, nobody has trained them to handle all of this conflict and they still have to deliver on the business.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: So I think that multi-generational friction is definitely one.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Another one is the topic that I spoke about at the summit last week, which is personal branding.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: There's so many senior leaders, from lawyers to doctors, medical professionals, who want to build their brand, because they're looking at what am I going to do five, 10 years out?
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: How do I stand out?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: And, frankly, as AI continues to automate and evolve our work, we need to make sure that we're connected, we're known and we're perceived as experts, so that we can command the jobs that we deserve.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to make sure that you know we're connected, we're known and we're perceived as experts so that we can command the jobs that we deserve.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think some people you know they talk about thought leadership also connected to that which you talked about as one of your verticals that you've grown and developed and nurtured over time, and it's not a stagnant thing.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: It's not like a one and done, you know, so like it's something you you continue to grow and evolve.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Some people find thought leadership very overwhelming or very big, too big to take on.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: So what's your guidance for someone who just wants to start, like, down the thought leadership path?
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, great question.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: I go back to truly leaning on your strengths, because this is what makes you great.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: So having again starting with elevating our self-awareness and remembering you know what is it about us that we want to be known for, you know what has gotten us to where we are in our career, and those are the topics that you can then start speaking about or, frankly, even just reacting to.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Share an article that you read that spoke to you, and provide your point of view, because I think, especially the higher we are in our jobs, we want to make sure that we are providing again what is our two cents, our opinion, so that we can then start transitioning from just contributing to, later on, actually authoring some new work, yeah, okay, is there a sense that you don't have to also do it alone, like you can work with someone like you, like your coach, or you could actually maybe find a friend who says, you know, you could just ask them, like, what do you think I'm good at?
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Because sometimes I think we're not able to identify what we do.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Well, other people can see it, but we can't see it Cause you think, oh, that's no big deal, I just do it, I just do my job, or I just create great teams, or I have these incredible outcomes, or I'm able to to kind of go across these different areas of work and get it all done, you know.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: So how do you unearth what you're good at?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and great question, because if you're having kind of trouble landing that, and that is totally fine, we all, we all go through that.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: That is normal.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: That's a starting point.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: It's like we're on autopilot and then we're trying to reflect oh, how do I do that?
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, one great thing that we can do is just identify a few, maybe three to five people that we know our mentor, maybe some people that we trust at work and outside of work.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: You know people if we are volunteering in nonprofit organizations, et cetera.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: We just want five professionals who you can just ask a very simple question and you can just say you know, hey, I'm working with my coach and I want to understand what are the three key attributes that come up for you when you think about me and I think this is a question or a version of a question that we have all heard when we have gone for a job interview, they might ask you what are your direct reports going to say about you?
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Or what is your manager going to say about you?
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Because that way you're getting data and you're getting data points that are going to help you to understand.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, these are the different attributes, these are the branding kind of reputation that I have outside.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And then you have to reflect and say does that represent truly who I am?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: And then you have to reflect and say does that represent truly who I am?
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Because maybe you have been fantastic at managing clients right, but now you have moved on from that and you want to look into the future.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: You want to be strategic, right, you want to be a futurist.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: So that requires a different type of brand and I love the book from Marshall Goldsmith what got you here won't get you there Right.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Again, those are great attributes that you have, but when thinking about the new future self, who you want to become, what are the branding attributes that you want?
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: And then you know, as a coach, I will work with my client to help them achieve that new brand, the new identity.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: I had a great conversation yesterday with Michael Bungay-Stanier.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I love him.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: We were talking about the friction between your current self and your future self that occurs and the connection to being bold and you know change and innovating and all those things that can come in.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: And so you kind of hit the nail on the head of thinking about you know where you are today isn't going to get you to the future you.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: And when you think about your future you, what are you doing?
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: How do you feel?
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Where are you working?
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Who are you around?
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: And then thinking kind of the bridge to that is understanding where you are now and where you want to go and realizing that you have a lot of things that you are doing well, but maybe you're not even using your whole you know arsenal of things you're good at right.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: You know maybe you're not even using your whole you know arsenal of things you're good at right.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: You know, maybe you're a great person that brings together community and can create places and spaces for people to come together, but you've never really tried it because you just do it in your teams a little bit.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: But maybe it's something you can do in a particular area of interest or something that you want to do for social justice or something you know it can expand.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: But again we go back to that word opportunity and possibilities of what's out there for you.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: But you don't have to do it alone.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: I think is what I want people to hear from both of us, and you know there's people like you as a coach and as a leader and a mentor, and other people in our lives that can help us maybe figure out how to start.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: And I think that's the key thing is you got to start somewhere.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: No, 100%, and thank you, leigh.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: And I think you mentioned some great points that I just want to highlight Because, as you mentioned, it goes back to then.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: You were able to identify oh, I do this for my kids' games or at home, or just volunteer at work, but maybe that can be something in the future that you can monetize.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: That also opens the opportunity for you to join communities that you want, to be surrounded with people who are inspiring, people who are all working towards their own goals, because then they keep you in check and I don't know if I'm sure you heard the phrase that we're the sum of the five peoples closest to us.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: So, having that community like yours and this is why I really loved when I met all of your members Wow, what an amazing group of people, where these are all amazing women who have been at the top of their careers.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: And you know, as a coach, we're not looking to make you better your career, but we're looking to help you reach that future self, that future destination that you want to create as you look for the next phase in life.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: As we close out, I want to talk a little bit about your book.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, so tell me a little bit about how you came up with the titles Zigzag to the Top and what the book's about coming out in 2025.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: So Zigzag to the Top.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: It's really an alternative to kind of the old adage that we know, which is rising up the corporate ladder, right, and the zigzag is really.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: It goes back to what I mentioned earlier during our talk about having a portfolio career Success is not a straight line, you know.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: This was again valid 15, 20 years ago, but now things have changed and you taking a moment, you know, to become an entrepreneur for you know, giving it a try for three years, and whether you continue, or you're successful and you're able to raise fantastic.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: But even if you're not, that experience that you bring along with you is going to help you to continue to, you know, go up into that zigzag of the mountain, right.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: So I think it's just again a realization that all of those experiences are now valid, they're encouraged and they will help you to differentiate from the number of people who continue the old fashioned way of trying to rise up the corporate ladder.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: That zigzag is just going to help you have more stories you know, more attributes, more identities that you know are going to create an interesting brand that is going to help you stand out.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you talk about the mindset, the habits and behaviors that come along with that, anything key that we should look forward to and hearing about around those areas that you've seen?
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so one that I think is it goes back to also what we have been discussing is really being the source.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: So all of us probably had a roadmap that we took because we were expected to go to college.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Maybe we were expected to go to get an MBA.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: We had expectations and milestones that were set for us and society.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: But I think what is great and what we have to realize is that we have to become the source.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: We have to then create those milestones.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Am I going to be an entrepreneur?
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Am I going to be a founder?
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Am I going to be a speaker?
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: What are the next milestones that are going to help you reach your new heights?
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: So that idea of being the source is something that really came through through the amazing people that I have been interviewing in order to define what does success look like in the new world of work?
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: So if everyone listening is realizing that, if you're feeling like success is not a straight line it isn't never is what you imagine, potentially what it looks like or what it will be like.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: You might have some alignment of it, but usually it's something even greater or more wonderful than you expect, and the highs are higher and the lows might be lower.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: That would be my experience.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: The dips are incredible as an entrepreneur, but also what I'm always proud that I can do and do better and quicker is the pivot.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: When a down comes, I'm like, okay, we got this, we're figuring it out, we'll do this and this.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: It's just a continual puzzle to solve and sometimes the pieces are higher challenges than others.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: And sometimes it's just like okay, we can do this, we've done this, and so I think continuing to believe in yourself is really important in that aspect as well.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes back to.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: You have to have that inner confidence that failing in an area doesn't mean you're a failure, it's just a learning experience.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Every success, as we all know, has had mishaps and, frankly, one of the things that I think we have to truly be open to is that sometimes, when something fails, is the universe giving you feedback that maybe you haven't realized that, oh, my final destination is going to take a different route.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: You have to be open to that.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I'm a big believer and I love the seven habits of highly effective people.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: So that idea of start with the end in mind and really like what is the impact that you're looking to create, whether the title, the position, the salary may take a different shape.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: You have to be open and, again, willing to hear the feedback and then learn how to pivot along the way.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, open to the possibility.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: So, yes.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for being on the bold lounge.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: All the information about Jenny, her coaching services, her new book and her newsletter, which I highly encourage everyone to sign up for, is in the episode notes.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the lounge.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: I love that experience.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.