Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / Episode #3: What About God Moments?

Transcript

Episode #3: What About God Moments? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everyone.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright here along with Terry Summers, Arizona Actress of the Year.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: What year was that, Terry?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think we established it was like 1962, but no, not really.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't born yet.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was, it was in the early nineties.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was, they, they did call me Arizona actress of the year that one year.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: And somehow that has been declared and followed me for,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: pretty much decades later.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, as it should.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: In your eyes.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, as it should.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's very important.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tim Wright, along with Terry Summers.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Terry and I were talking after the last show a little bit about some of the experiences that she had.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: We had been talking in the last podcast about decisions for Jesus,
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: belief,
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: unbelief,
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: starting with God's grace.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, but you know, I had these experiences.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had them too.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought it'd be good today just to talk about those.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: What these experiences, these God moments that we have in our lives, what does that mean?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if we start with grace, what has God up to?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So Terry, you were talking, you can remember the night in your small little church when
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was a powerful moment for you.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us a little bit about it.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was a small little Southern Baptist church and spent up until my junior high years there.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I felt something in my spirit.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: person, my, what I would now call my spirit.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I came prepared and ready to do the routine of listening carefully.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I really, I did feel drawn and I sat on the first, they didn't have pews.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: They were folding gray metal chairs and we're talking little place and
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I sat on the first seat on the first row on the aisle and just hands folded in my lap.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I did not miss a beat with the pastor.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: And being a Baptist church, there was an invitation to make a decision to invite Jesus into your life.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I paused.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I went home and I asked my dad about that.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I want to invite Jesus.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: I want to make a decision.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we knelt by my little pink bed.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's an image I have in my head that I don't want to ever let go of because it
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: had so much else going on in memories.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: My father passed away at an early age for him.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: But the sweetness of it.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he prayed what would be called maybe the sinner's prayer or prayed something similar with me.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I prayed with him.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then the next week I was back in that seat praying.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then officially went forward in my decision in the quote unquote altar call.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I only say that because I don't know that everybody knows that those are things
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: that happen in a Southern Baptist church,
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: but it was an altar call coming forward to the altar.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I, and, and the pastor's name, we called him brother Dave, brother Dave Robinson.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: And he bent down and I said, I made a decision.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: to invite Jesus into my life.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then it wasn't long after that,
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: in the tradition of our particular church,
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: where I was baptized as a public profession of my
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: faith and when i have um well even it came up in our last podcast that i asked that
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: of your brother when we were all sitting around visiting um on a lunch break at
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: community church of joy i asked him when he made his decision and his answer was
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: it's always been and i just couldn't quite tumble around and rec you know reconcile
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: with that but we were when we got off from recording last time i mentioned
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: This very, to me, iconic, pivotal time.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: So sweet.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: But where I would mark my commitment to Jesus by that quote unquote decision I made.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I had something similar when I was in second grade.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I was a weird kid.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be a pastor since I was in second grade.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I came out of the womb a theologian, thinking about spiritual stuff, right?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: We were close to the same age then.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was six-something, and so you were right there.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I was attending a...
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I said in our first podcast,
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was raised in a Lutheran home,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: but we sort of dabbled in other denominations.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the places that we would go for summer or vacation Bible school was the
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: local Evangelical Free Church,
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: which is somewhat like a Baptist church.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And my VBS teacher...
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: happened to be the next door neighbor to my grandma, Mrs. Drake.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew Mrs. Drake really well.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And second or third day,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: she asked if there were any kids who wanted to join her at the altar in the front
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: of the church and pray to receive Jesus as their savior.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And my hand went up immediately.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I remember she and I and one other kid,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember who the kid was,
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: but I remember there was another kid.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And she prayed with us.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure I prayed something, the sinner's prayer, Jesus come into my life.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember she kissed me afterwards on the cheek.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: That was gross.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: But otherwise, it was, I can still, like you, I can still see myself there.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: in that moment.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and, um, it was a moment.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was a God moment in my life.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I, I don't in any way, shape or form downplay that God moment.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I had other God moments as,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: as my life went on,
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: where there were points along and still happen,
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: but points along the way where,
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: and here's where language becomes a difficulty,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: but where Jesus and his grace just became real or showed up in a different way.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And looking back, I can't remember a day in my life when I didn't believe in Jesus.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was raised in a Christian home.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: We always went to church.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: I always believed.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: So to accept or receive Jesus in second grade,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Theologically, well, I already believed in him and he'd already accepted me.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I still think it was a moment among many where Jesus just sort of showed up and said,
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here and I love you.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this is an opportunity for you to respond.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: As you were talking about yours, I was thinking about marriage again.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: We used this before.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: When two people get married,
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: they're committing to each other publicly that they love each other,
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: that they will commit themselves to each other for a lifetime.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, they've already made that commitment.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: They don't necessarily need to...
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not getting into sex before marriage and all that kind of stuff.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what we're talking about.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about relational commitment stuff.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: They already love each other.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so the commitment they're making is to sort of reaffirm, yes, I know you love me.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I love you.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a moment.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is a moment where we're recognizing that.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't necessarily change my love for you or Jan's love for me.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: But it does change the relationship and the way that we think about it.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same love.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: But now we've sort of had a moment.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we celebrate those moments with anniversaries, and we celebrate it with birthdays and so on.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that there's much difference between,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: say,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: that and what Jesus does in our lives as we walk with him,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: where they're just moments.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And for some of us, they'll be dramatic moments.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: For some of us, they'll be real quiet moments.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And for some of us, we may not even think we've had any of those moments.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we probably,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: if we took the time to sit down,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: we say,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: there was a moment where things became clearer to me or where I didn't think I was
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: going to make it.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And something came along and helped me, a word, a phrase.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think these are moments where Jesus, it's not that he shows up differently.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that we have a sense of.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: that this stuff is real and it's just a moment of reaffirmation where I think Jesus
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: reaffirms his love for us.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: then it's a chance for us to do things that are really important for us to say yeah
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: i'm in i'm in but i'm not saying i'm in so that jesus will come in right right uh
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: jesus is already in and now i'm saying yeah i want to be in and so um again if as
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: we talked about in our last podcast if your starting point is you got to make a
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: decision for jesus to love you
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: you get yourself into all sorts of challenges.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if Jesus loves you and you have these moments where, wow, that's, yeah, that's true.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: He does love me.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And a moment that captures your heart, your imagination, that's a gift of grace, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Versus something, something that God gives to me versus something I have to do to get something from God.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it just changes the whole way that we understand how God works in our lives.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that little moment for you with your dad,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: what a powerful moment to have had with your dad,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: especially knowing that your dad passed away at such a young age.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And for your church to be a part of that and for that public moment you had when
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: you were baptized,
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: all of those are ways for God just to come along and say,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Terry,
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're mine.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you just have this sense about it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you're so drawn to it.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: What else are you going to do?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to do something, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: right and so in response to this wonderful grace these god moments um we as human
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: beings do the best that we can to respond uh just as we do with other ceremonies
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: that are important for us right um i as when you spoke of some
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: have more dramatic moments immediately who came to mind.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I know there's many that we can call upon, but one is a mutual friend of ours.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I've heard his story shared in Tom Eggum had quite a dramatic, a dramatic moment.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just wondering if,
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: So when you speak of a six-year-old that really has loved Jesus since I could have
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: ever heard his name,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: and like you,
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: reared in a Christian home.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: But for those that have been held, well, I don't even know how to say it, have maybe been hindered.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: in opening up their minds and their hearts to the love of Jesus that's always been there.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: given that grace has not been the door that was opened for them,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: that they saw,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: that they could experience,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: do you think that in reflection and testimony of seeing these moments that might be
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: more dramatic,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: does that speak or does that almost somehow try to validate our side of the fence?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let me start.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let me get that from a few different perspectives.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: You and I were raised in a church and we've always believed in Jesus.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not always the case for church people.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: There are some kids who are raised in the church and then they leave for a while.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Some may never come back.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Some come back because they're
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: drawn back because they've got kids asking them questions or whatever, right?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or they go through a really tough period in their life and God shows up.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: We all have different experiences of God.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And some, like the Apostle Paul, have this dramatic blinding light experience.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there are others who they couldn't tell you exactly when it happened,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: but they could tell you,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really believe this stuff and now I do.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't matter how it happens.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's that God did it all, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: The problem becomes in some Christian settings that the dramatic story becomes sort
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: of the model that we have to live into.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And if I didn't have a dramatic experience...
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like our friend, Tom Agam, who was hassling some Christian people and they just loved on him.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result, he started to say, hey, this is for me as well.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or the Apostle Paul.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: If we haven't had that,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: if I wasn't saved from drugs and alcohol,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: then my conversion just isn't quite as cool.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm after.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the question.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember one time I heard somebody who had had a fairly dramatic conversion experience.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, now, I know there are a lot of you out here.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: You've never had that kind of experience before.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: You've always believed in Jesus.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: He said, and I'm really jealous of you.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: that you have known all your life how faithful God is.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't have to try drugs.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't have to try this or that.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: You just always knew.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I missed out on so much.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And for me,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: it's how do we as Christian people get to the point where we see every God moment,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: big or small,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: as a valid God moment,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that what moves us isn't the conversion story itself or even the moment.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's Jesus that moves us and his grace for us.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we had a mutual friend.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: We both worked with Walt Callistead at Community Church of Joy for a long time.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember him talking about how we often get caught up chasing the experience
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: of God rather than chasing after God.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: What's the next thing?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And Christianity has lived in the trenches of life.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's lived in the everydayness.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting up.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's having a cup of coffee.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to work.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting the kids ready for school.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's coming home.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's watching the Cardinals lose another game of football.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's going to bed.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's life.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Everyday life.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And somehow, in some way, Jesus is involved in that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there are times we go through the day and we haven't thought about Jesus at all.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And there are times when we just suddenly stop and, wow, I need to pray about this.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't matter.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is still there.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he hasn't abandoned us.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: He's just involved in the everydayness of life.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's what the incarnation, big word for God became flesh, is all about.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: He entered into normal, everyday stuff of life.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And mountaintop experiences are fantastic if you have them.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just a moment.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: What matters is that Jesus is there in the everydayness of life, just loving on you.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're the object of God's affection and knowing that God's presence will never
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: leave you nor forsake you.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so these little moments are to be celebrated.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And as I mentioned, I've had a number of them in my life, but some people never have them at all.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you look at them and say, man, there's something really rich about their faith.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: They just, they just radiate assurance and peace.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's not always like that for them.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the experience, although the experiences are cool.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's grace.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's God's grace.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it's all about.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that it, that it always was there, you know, like.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, and, and,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know I've referenced my marriage to Jan many times,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: but it's the closest I can think of to that human relationship that we have that's
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: somewhat similar.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this may not be true for women.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: It can be true for guys.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can go for hours and not think about the fact that I'm married.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't mean I don't passionately love my wife and that I'm not married, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: In those moments when I'm really in the zone and I'm working on something and
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: everything else is tuned out,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: just because I'm not thinking about Jan doesn't mean I don't love her,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: A.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And number two doesn't mean that in that moment that I'm not married or not committed.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great metaphor.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Love is just a marriage is built in the everydayness of life.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's built on a promise.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: right not first and foremost in emotions built on a promise the emotions are
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: important part of that but it's the promise of love and the commitment of love that
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: holds us um you know when whether we're thinking about each other in that moment or
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: not and i can promise you jan's not thinking about me 24 7 maybe 23 hours a day but
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: not 24 oh a good 23 yeah a good 23
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when my kids were younger,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: just because I didn't think about them didn't mean I didn't love them and wasn't
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: their dad,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: So our challenge with so much of our Christianity is it's based on what I have to
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: do or what I have to feel or what moments I have.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: When all is said and done, it's based on one thing.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: The lavish grace of God demonstrated through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the promise that holds us.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the moment.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's the God moment to build a faith on.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because mountaintops, you got to come down at some point.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can remember some mountaintop experiences and then come crashing down a few days later,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I wouldn't give up that mountaintop experience for anything.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: and I know a couple episodes ago,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: you talked about us as just human beings that we sort of come out of the womb ready
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: to have to work for things.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think even in the same tone, those mountaintop experiences somehow qualify, you know what I mean?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's still in that same lane of working for, you know, and that's a good point.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point that they validate my,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: My Christianity.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I, you know, I heard God speak to me the other day.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and sometimes God does speak to us.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I've heard God speak, not out loud, but intuitively.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have to recognize sometimes it's just gas.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: How do you, is it God's spirit or is it just gas?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: God or Chimichanga.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's part of the joy of living.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: A relationship is always filled with something up ahead and you can't see it coming.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you just live through it together.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's the joy.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's like riding a roller coaster.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Filled with ups and downs and all kinds of thrills.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he's... God's there all the time.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the...
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: I know we were talking about building habits and we can talk about that another time,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: but the habit of reminding ourselves of that grace,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: and you spoke to it,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: that you and Jan say,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: I love you on the regular because it is this,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: it's this muscle that's being affirmed and built.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I keep kind of coming back to that in my mind as I hear you speak, that that is a practice that,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: would help me, you know, like I still feel inclined to not necessarily trust.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's not so much trust, but let his grace be that.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, that always there, that, um,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: mountaintop experiences might be those moments but that always their um
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: understanding of god's love for us and the grace that that really covers you know i
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: had this thing funny thing thinking about grace now i know you probably aren't
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: going to resonate
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: but me having some chunk a chunk on me um a pair of jeans that has give to it is a
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: very different pair of jeans and you know back in the day like levi's were you know
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: like you had to make a determination that that's of the size that you were going to
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: get because once you were that's restricting
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: But I have a pair of jeans that have such stretch in them,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: but they allow for so much that otherwise I wouldn't have had the freedom.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: And this is really not nearly as eloquent as your.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's beautiful.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Which pair of jeans would you rather wear?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: The ones that I can breathe in or.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Which are the jeans that culture wants you to wear?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or religion wants you to wear.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: You took it deep there.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, you took it deep.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just fleshing it out for you, Terry.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: But that's exactly right.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And which are the jeans we think we should wear to punish ourselves?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because these are the jeans.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because you could be cheating by wearing those grace jeans.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: You're pulling off something.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, it was how my mind worked when I was contemplating this question.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: this podcast, like that kind of give, Oh, I just got chills.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's a,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: it's you called it a gift or you use that term and it is a gift,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: but there's some give there for all that I am and all that I am not in these
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: proverbial genes that have stretch.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, who would have thought that stretchy jeans would be the metaphor of the day.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: My grace is like a nice pair of stretchy jeans.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably going to be the one thing everybody will remember.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: All this great.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Terry's stretchy jeans.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Terry's stretchy jeans.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's fantastic.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: That is fantastic.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I asked you to do the show, Terry.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Bring me down to earth.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, we're going to be back again next time.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got a lot of these things we're going to probe together.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Probe is probably not a great word.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to discover together.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And Terry, it's just a delight to have you along for the ride.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a delight to have all of our listeners along for the ride.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Share it with your friends, would you?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And let them know.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not yet signed up for the free recklessgrace.substack.com,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: which is where this podcast,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: one of the places you can get it.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you can get it on Apple, Spotify, other places.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Check it out, recklessgrace.substack.com, where I'm doing writing on this stuff as well.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Terry, thank you so much.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, man, Tim, thank you.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is a joy, and I'm in.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: There it is.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Leaving you with some... It's gone.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, everyone.