Latest / Karl and Crew / A Biblical Theology of Suffering with Dr. Gerald Peterman & The Making of “Daniel and the Fiery Furnace” with Matthew & Daniel Kooman

Transcript

A Biblical Theology of Suffering with Dr. Gerald Peterman & The Making of “Daniel and the Fiery Furnace” with Matthew & Daniel Kooman · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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  S1: the truth daily.
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  S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available
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  S2: and you're forfeiting your soul, there's no amount of gain
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  S2: that would make it worth it.
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  S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S3: the life source, which is God.
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  S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and crew.
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  S5: On this Freedom Friday. What a mosh pit. Something with
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  S5: these fine ladies. Ali, by the way, let me just
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  S5: tell you something. Boom crew Ali and Super die. They're
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  S5: two great gals. Really good gals. And if I haven't
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  S5: told you lately, and I try to. I appreciate you
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  S5: both very much.
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  S2: Thanks, Carl.
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  S5: Appreciate you both.
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  S4: Thank you very, very much.
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  S2: Thank you.
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  S5: Thank you. Really appreciate you. Uh. What do we do
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  S5: on this Freedom Friday? I just fired up about a
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  S5: cool passage. Uh, we touched on it barely. And I'm
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  S5: going to unfold the rest here. Touched on it barely yesterday,
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  S5: I think, in one segment. But on this Freedom Friday,
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  S5: you know, it's an interesting thing. Uh, we're all looking
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  S5: for some kind of relief, right? And what does it
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  S5: look like when we're looking for relief in our life?
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  S5: And I think one of the greatest evidences that we
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  S5: need relief is that the world is on a scramble
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  S5: for something that will provide that. The absence of contentment
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  S5: is maybe one of the greatest revelations that we are
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  S5: on a scramble to get some relief in our life, right?
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  S6: Sure. And I mean, I think that for a lot
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  S6: of people, substances, substances provide some sort of relief. And
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  S6: I'm not talking about just the people who would consider
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  S6: themselves addicted, talking about the people who you know, I
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  S6: know many moms who need a couple glasses of wine
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  S6: every night to just kind of cope with the day. Yeah.
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  S6: And get through the evening and help to relieve some
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  S6: of the stress of life. That's just one example.
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  S5: Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's, there's so many things. I mean,
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  S5: there's myriad Things that we do. And what's interesting is,
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  S5: is we find in Scripture for the nation of Israel,
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  S5: they would opt for different idols. But those idols, all
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  S5: they really represent are pain relief. It's kind of like,
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  S5: you know, it's, it's the, it's the ibuprofen for the soul.
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  S5: You know what I mean? It's something that they're looking
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  S5: for to help fill that void, take away that pain.
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  S6: Do you think it's always pain relief?
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  S5: You know, I've it's it's interesting. I don't know if
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  S5: it's pain relief, but there's I have to look at.
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  S5: So let me crack it open. Behold the Lamb of
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  S5: God who takes away the sin of the world. Right.
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  S5: That's what John the Baptist said of Jesus. And then
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  S5: it goes on. And it's interesting in chapter one of
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  S5: the Gospel of John, it goes on to mention two
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  S5: disciples and ones left unnamed. And that's because John wrote John.
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  S5: So he talks about Andrew and himself, but he doesn't
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  S5: name himself, which is a pretty humble thing, you know
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  S5: what I mean?
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  S6: Oh, yeah.
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  S5: So he could have said, yeah, me and Andrew, we
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  S5: were the first ones stepping up following the Messiah. But
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  S5: when they stayed with him for a day, when he said,
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  S5: come and see, I want to show you what I
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  S5: want to do. Obviously, that must have been imagine what
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  S5: that meeting was like. These are the first two disciples,
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  S5: and they. Then Andrew and John went out and found
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  S5: some other men. One of them was Peter. Cephas would
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  S5: be called Peter, and they said these words. They said, we've.
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  S5: We've found the Messiah, which is translated Christ, which is
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  S5: translated in the Hebrew anointed one, which is the anointed
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  S5: one had one role, and that was to deliver the
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  S5: nation of Israel, deliver them from pain, affliction themselves, everything
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  S5: that's in this world. So is there pain avoidance? Um,
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  S5: I would say there's pain avoidance and there's an attempt
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  S5: to fill that void with something. There's a satisfaction desire
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  S5: for sure, for sure, for sure. What were you thinking
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  S5: when you asked that?
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  S6: Well, because I think satisfaction is nails it a little
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  S6: bit more because I think for a lot of people,
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  S6: you go through hard times for sure. And then you
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  S6: identify pain. But I think a lot of people go
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  S6: through life. There's not like any great pain at any
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  S6: given moment. They could feel like things are okay. But
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  S6: can a lack of contentment for sure. A gnawing sort
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  S6: of man is this is this it kind of a
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  S6: grasping for purpose? For meaning?
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  S5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. That's really it. You know,
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  S5: I'm just going to, without too much fanfare, I just
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  S5: feel deeply compelled to pour out my heart to you
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  S5: this morning because, uh, Allie and I were working on
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  S5: a project after the show yesterday. And so the whole
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  S5: issue of how many people that come here at any
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  S5: given moment who are very, uh, Christianized from a cultural standpoint,
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  S5: and they have what often has been called churchianity or
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  S5: easy believism, which is no faith at all. Um, it's
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  S5: almost demonic in nature. Not that you're a demon, but
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  S5: that even demons believe in God and they tremble. So there's,
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  S5: there's this watered down cultural Christianity that's going to catch many, uh,
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  S5: totally unaware. And that's why we find in Matthew seven,
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  S5: and we repeat it here all the time, because I
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  S5: think it's the message of our day. Many will say
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  S5: on that day, Lord, Lord, and they're going to cite
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  S5: all kinds of religious, not spiritual, but religious activity that
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  S5: they've been up to. And there must come a point.
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  S5: And for me, I haven't shared this in a while,
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  S5: but February 11th of 1984 was a massive turning point
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  S5: for me, and I didn't know how much I was
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  S5: longing for what Jesus had for me, uh, until he
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  S5: saved my soul. That's the wild thing about salvation is
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  S5: you don't know what you don't know until you get
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  S5: to that point. But I long for everyone listening here
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  S5: to see Jesus as more than just a great historical figure,
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  S5: or as, uh, even the Messiah, the Christ, the Son
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  S5: of God. But to come to that point at which
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  S5: you recognize he is my deliverer, he's my Messiah. And
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  S5: then that's what brings up this whole point of deliver
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  S5: from what and whether it's a mad scramble to find
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  S5: contentment in everything that we can find in this world,
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  S5: or to be delivered from pain that we're going through
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  S5: of some sort. Jesus promises all the above. That's that's
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  S5: the coolest thing. And when John the Baptist saw Jesus,
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  S5: he looked at him and he pointed. And he said,
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  S5: behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin
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  S5: of the world. And what's amazing is that sin is. And,
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  S5: and we might, we might say, well, you know, I
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  S5: don't know how much I sin or we put sin
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  S5: into these crazy big buckets, but any attempt, I mean, the, the,
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  S5: you know, the big ones, like, I'm a thief, I'm
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  S5: a murderer. I'm, I'm fill in the blank. But any
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  S5: attempt to try to make sense of. Find satisfaction in
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  S5: this life, or find something to deliver you from pain.
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  S5: Apart from the Messiah is going to come up empty.
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  S5: And this is why central to authentic faith is the
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  S5: admission I'm a sinner. You came to save me from myself.
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  S5: Which is sobering, isn't it, guys? Yeah.
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  S6: It's the saving for myself because I think a lot
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  S6: of times it's only good news if you know that
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  S6: there's bad news. You only are delighted to be found
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  S6: when you know that you're lost.
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  S5: Yeah, and I'm so pumped when you share your story, Ali,
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  S5: because here you are. Good kid. Believed in God. Um,
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  S5: you you you were a good kid, okay? You're a
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  S5: good kid. You were a good young adult. Uh, but
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  S5: then when God's Spirit chose to. Isn't that amazing? Put
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  S5: you around a group of people that revealed to you
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  S5: that all of your religious activity and your perceived goodness
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  S5: on the outside could not span that gap in your
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  S5: life between you and and a Savior whose name is Jesus.
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  S5: That that to me is a beautiful picture.
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  S6: Yeah. I mean, because you can you don't see it
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  S6: until you see it, until your eyes are opened to it,
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  S6: to the fact that you cannot save yourself. You can't
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  S6: make yourself good enough that your attempts to prop yourself
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  S6: up or to achieve or to do good works don't
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  S6: mean anything apart from the saving grace of having your
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  S6: soul saved out of that can flow good works because
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  S6: you've been changed. But when you just try to live
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  S6: a good life that's empty.
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  S5: Yeah. And so there's a lot of you that are
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  S5: here and it's, it's, it runs this huge span of
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  S5: people from the religiously active to the. No attempt to
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  S5: be religiously active. But you are looking to, uh, get
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  S5: that pain medicated in some way. You're looking to get
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  S5: that discontentment resolved. And here's what I want to tell
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  S5: you today. Oh, Jesus has the life that you have
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  S5: been looking for. Jesus has the life that you've been
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  S5: looking for. And the amazing thing about this life that
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  S5: you've been looking for is found in Jesus. When we
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  S5: receive him as the Messiah, meaning it's more than believing
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  S5: in him. It's recognizing he is the one who can
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  S5: deliver me from me. Which is so cool. So, February
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  S5: 11th of 84. Here I am, man. Young kid, Early 20s,
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  S5: and I didn't know how much of a mad scramble
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  S5: I was on. Uh, trying to make my life count,
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  S5: make my life make sense. Um, I knew that I
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  S5: was off track, but I didn't know who I was
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  S5: off track from, and that was, I had never received
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  S5: Jesus as my deliverer. There's some of you here today
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  S5: that recognize in this moment, and it's only because of
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  S5: the Holy Spirit that's brought you here. See, our job
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  S5: is to bring you good information from the Word of God.
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  S5: And then the inspiration of that, the regeneration of that
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  S5: is the Holy Spirit's work. We just bring that. And
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  S5: then the Holy Spirit begins to work, and the Spirit
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  S5: of God and angelic forces are unseen, but as palpable
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  S5: as can possibly be. And some of you are were
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  S5: experiencing that today. And what's amazing is we don't even
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  S5: have to iterate exactly the thing that you've been looking
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  S5: for to deliver you, uh, to, uh, bring contentment to you,
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  S5: to relieve pain from you. Uh, but the Spirit of
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  S5: God is revealing that Jesus came to do that. And
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  S5: then I go back to John the Baptist's words, behold
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  S5: the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of
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  S5: the world. And that's a huge opportunity. This is why
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  S5: we're called to go into all the world and to
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  S5: share this good news of Jesus Christ. And that's what
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  S5: we're doing here today. We're going across all of our
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  S5: listening audience, North America, Canada. Yeah. Beyond, far beyond. And
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  S5: we're saying, friend, isn't today the day that the Spirit
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  S5: of God is telling you to surrender all you are
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  S5: to Jesus Christ. And the beautiful thing about salvation is
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  S5: that it is a soul that cries out to God. God,
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  S5: I need to be delivered from me. And it's it's
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  S5: so liberating when you cross that threshold with humility and say,
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  S5: it's been me. And if the cry of your soul
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  S5: today is to say, free me from me, Jesus. And
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  S5: here's what's beautiful. The Spirit of God is calling you.
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  S5: He's calling you. And it's so rich and real and
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  S5: and powerful and friend, you don't want to go through
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  S5: this life trying to figure out how you can deliver yourself.
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  S5: You can't, but Jesus can. And so today I simply
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  S5: ask you one question. Are you done running from God?
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  S5: Are you done trying to be the deliverer of your
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  S5: own soul? Are you done trying to find contentment in
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  S5: all the other empty gods of this age? And are
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  S5: you ready today to cry out to Jesus and say,
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  S5: I'm a sinner? You came to to take away the
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  S5: sin of the world. Jesus, take away mine. Just. Just
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  S5: yell it out to God. Say, take away mine. Take
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  S5: away mine. I give you my life. I surrender all
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  S5: I am to you and you will turn. And you'll
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  S5: leave this broad path that leads to destruction. And many
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  S5: are on it. Many religious people are on it. You
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  S5: will turn and you will come face to face with
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  S5: the living Jesus. Don't let pride hold you back, friend.
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  S5: And if that's the cry of your soul today, save
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  S5: me from me. I'm a sinner. I'm a man or
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  S5: a woman of unclean lips. I need your touch in
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  S5: my life today. I surrender all that I am to
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  S5: Jesus Christ. We want to help you, and I'm going
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  S5: to pray for you in a moment, but we're going
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  S5: to help you right now. If this is the cry
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  S5: of your soul, you get to the side of the road,
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  S5: you get somewhere, but you get that phone right now.
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  S5: Because today, this work that God is beginning in you,
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  S5: he will carry it on to completion until the day
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  S5: of Christ Jesus. And we're called by God in order
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  S5: for us to be obedient to God. Our role right
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  S5: now is to help you take your first steps with
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  S5: Jesus and Ali. We've got a cool resource and we
• 16:15
  S5: want people to use every bit of it, don't we?
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  S6: So if that's you, just text new NEW to 805 557898,
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  S6: just one word, new 805 557898. You're going to get
• 16:31
  S6: a response from us that has a link. Read through
• 16:34
  S6: it carefully how to get a Bible, what to look
• 16:36
  S6: for in a church, and then a form to fill out.
• 16:38
  S6: Don't miss this. In case you want follow up from
• 16:41
  S6: our team here at Moody Radio, just text new to
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  S6: 805 557898.
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  S5: Yeah. Come on. Come to Jesus, friend. Today is the day.
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  S5: Surrender all you are to Jesus Christ. And I can testify.
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  S5: The life you've been making for yourself. Will be so
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  S5: outstripped and outshined. By the love of Jesus that will
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  S5: flood your soul. The power of the Holy Spirit, the
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  S5: arms of God that are bringing you in. Text new
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  S5: wherever you are today, right now to 805 557898. One
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  S5: word new to 805 557898. I want to pray for
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  S5: you right now. So wherever you are in this world,
• 17:30
  S5: if today is the day that you're surrendering all you
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  S5: are to Jesus Christ, I'm going to pray for you.
• 17:35
  S5: But text that word first. New to 805 557898. Father,
• 17:42
  S5: I thank you that you catch us at moments when
• 17:46
  S5: we have no apparent appointment with you, but you had
• 17:51
  S5: an appointment with us, and I praise you that you're
• 17:54
  S5: calling men and women to yourself today. It gives me
• 17:57
  S5: great joy and great tears of happiness and gladness of
• 18:02
  S5: heart and such a a beautiful thing when when you
• 18:08
  S5: call us to yourself and say, I came as the
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  S5: Messiah to deliver you from you. And Lord, today we
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  S5: say thank you and for all these new followers, wherever
• 18:21
  S5: they are in this world, I pray, Oh God, that
• 18:24
  S5: you would protect them, that you would hold them close,
• 18:27
  S5: that you would guide them, that you would direct them.
• 18:29
  S5: And thank you that you promised to transform them through
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  S5: and through, in Jesus name. Amen. If this is you, friend,
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  S5: and some of you I know because this is me
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  S5: in so many of us that we were called out
• 18:44
  S5: of darkness into the light, could barely see a phone
• 18:46
  S5: screen because we had tears in our eyes. And those
• 18:49
  S5: are tears of shame being emptied out and joy that's
• 18:53
  S5: rushing in just when you can. If today is the
• 18:56
  S5: day when you surrender all you are to Jesus, just
• 18:59
  S5: text the word new right now to 800 555, 7898.
• 19:08
  S5: New to 800 555, 78, 98. We're going to read
• 19:16
  S5: out the last four numbers of your telephone number in
• 19:19
  S5: just a little bit. It's a cool thing when you
• 19:22
  S5: can see and hear that we see and hear what
• 19:26
  S5: God's doing in you. It's beautiful.
• 19:29
  S1: It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 19:33
  S6: You know, when you think about new life in Christ,
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  S6: you can you can have lived a okay life by
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  S6: the world's standards. So there are so there are many
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  S6: people who have a testimony where they are radically saved
• 19:46
  S6: out of drugs, alcohol addiction. You could be radically saved
• 19:51
  S6: out of pride, radically saved out of self-reliance. And notice
• 19:57
  S6: I use the word radical with both because one sounds radical,
• 20:02
  S6: one sounds less so, but they're both radical because of
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  S6: the spiritual reality that there's a there's a change that
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  S6: happens where you go from death to life, from darkness
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  S6: to light, to being a child of the devil, to
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  S6: being a child of God. And that's always radical, regardless
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  S6: of the circumstances that surround it. So for me, I
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  S6: didn't have a drugs to Jesus story. I didn't have
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  S6: a wild, addicted lifestyle where most people who knew me
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  S6: when I was a little kid and would see me
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  S6: now would say, yeah, that's pretty much what I expect.
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  S5: It's funny.
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  S6: They wouldn't. They wouldn't say, oh my goodness, she's so
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  S6: much different on the outside. But what they may not
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  S6: see is that the inside is much different, because I
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  S6: went from a very self-made, self-directed, achieve as much as
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  S6: I can to try to make myself good enough kind
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  S6: of life to a life where I can freely and
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  S6: willingly recognize that apart from him, I can do nothing.
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  S5: Yes.
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  S6: Where my source is not me anymore. My source is
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  S6: not trying to make myself better, to impress people, to
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  S6: make sure that people think well of me. That now
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  S6: I can run into the arms of Jesus. I can
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  S6: run to the feet of Jesus. I can confess my
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  S6: desperate need for him, even if nobody else can see it.
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  S6: I know, I know my how my heart is. I
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  S6: know that I can't clean up my own motives. I
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  S6: know that I can't make myself anything. And so life
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  S6: in Christ is freeing.
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  S5: Yeah.
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  S6: You're not your own God. You're not your own power source.
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  S6: You're not your own leader. You belong to him. All
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  S6: of the privileges and benefits as a child of God
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  S6: apply to you. That's a great place to be.
• 21:57
  S5: So well put man. This is David Leonard. Boom! Crew.
• 22:01
  S5: Grateful those new followers of Jesus. He's making everything new today.
• 22:08
  S1: God is breaking chains and running free. You're listening to
• 22:14
  S1: Carl and crew.
• 22:15
  S5: You know, the amazing thing about this spiritual life is
• 22:19
  S5: that when we are transformed, regenerated by the power of
• 22:22
  S5: the Holy Spirit, we walk into this brand new life.
• 22:25
  S5: But it doesn't mean that there aren't going to be
• 22:28
  S5: Battlefronts Thomas Aquinas. I don't know if I'm glad that
• 22:31
  S5: he codified it or not, but between the world, the
• 22:34
  S5: flesh and the devil, we got some challenges going on here.
• 22:38
  S5: And when I say the devil, we need to understand,
• 22:40
  S5: if you go to Ezekiel 28, you find that the pride,
• 22:44
  S5: the beauty and the pride of this fallen, angelic being
• 22:48
  S5: took with them a third of these angelic beings, all
• 22:52
  S5: in alien to God and their forces today that were
• 22:57
  S5: warned about in Ephesians six. So you got the devil,
• 23:00
  S5: you got the world, and you got the flesh, and
• 23:03
  S5: the flesh is all that we are apart from the
• 23:05
  S5: Spirit of God. Old tapes, old memories, habits, things encroach
• 23:09
  S5: on us. Oh my goodness. It seems like a battlefront.
• 23:12
  S5: And out of that can come a lot of pain
• 23:14
  S5: and suffering. Doctor Jerrold Peterman is with us right now.
• 23:18
  S5: I'm not sure that I'm so thrilled that Thomas Aquinas
• 23:21
  S5: codified all that. I could go a whole lifetime without
• 23:24
  S5: knowing those three buckets. Gerald.
• 23:26
  S7: Oh, I don't blame you. I understand what you're talking about.
• 23:28
  S5: Yeah. So let's jump into it here. There's a lot
• 23:32
  S5: of people that almost feel like they're ashamed that they're
• 23:37
  S5: going through pain and suffering. And I think we have
• 23:43
  S5: glossed over and minimized this with verses that are true,
• 23:49
  S5: that Jesus came to give us life and life more abundant.
• 23:52
  S5: And we feel like if I'm not experiencing abundance, however,
• 23:56
  S5: I define that there must be a real problem with me.
• 24:00
  S5: What do you say to that?
• 24:01
  S7: Well, Carl, it's absolutely true. I have the privilege of
• 24:04
  S7: teaching at Moody since 2002, and every semester I encounter
• 24:08
  S7: some students that are feeling exactly what you're talking about.
• 24:11
  S7: So it's quite common. Every generation is going through it.
• 24:15
  S6: Doctor Gerald Peterson with us again here on Carl and
• 24:19
  S6: crew professor here at Moody Bible Institute. His research interests
• 24:22
  S6: include New Testament, Greek language, Greek and Roman background to
• 24:26
  S6: the New Testament. He also teaches a class on biblical
• 24:29
  S6: theology of suffering. You said that class is often a
• 24:33
  S6: popular one for students, not because anybody's like, oh, yay,
• 24:37
  S6: let's talk about pain and suffering, but because for anybody
• 24:40
  S6: who wants to understand both how to live the Christian
• 24:44
  S6: life and how to minister to people effectively, this is
• 24:48
  S6: not a topic that you can avoid.
• 24:50
  S7: Right? Right. I should say, I team teach this class
• 24:54
  S7: with my colleague, Doctor Andrew Schmutzer. So he teaches half
• 24:58
  S7: and I teach half. He teaches the better half, and
• 25:00
  S7: I get to sit and listen to him. But absolutely right.
• 25:04
  S7: I think um, although it's painful, although it's sometimes difficult
• 25:08
  S7: for us to face to face our pain, to try
• 25:10
  S7: to understand our pain, to learn to sympathize with others
• 25:13
  S7: in their pain. It's a friendship skill, of course, and
• 25:16
  S7: it's also a ministry skill.
• 25:18
  S5: How do we delineate? I know one of the premises
• 25:22
  S5: that you have is that pain doesn't always have suffering,
• 25:24
  S5: and suffering doesn't have always have pain. So let's let's
• 25:28
  S5: get definitions here. What is pain? What is suffering? How
• 25:32
  S5: are they different? And then we're going to break into
• 25:35
  S5: the how do we find hope here?
• 25:37
  S7: Yes. Very important. Imagine you have a moody student. Actually
• 25:41
  S7: this happened and during class his dad sends him a
• 25:45
  S7: text saying, I'm divorcing your mother. And all that week
• 25:50
  S7: he's angry, discouraged, puzzled, bewildered. He has no physical pain,
• 25:56
  S7: but he's full of suffering, wondering like, what is going on?
• 26:00
  S7: What can I do? On the other hand, I'm sorry.
• 26:04
  S7: Take me as an example. On a Saturday, often on
• 26:07
  S7: a Saturday afternoon. My legs ache, my back hurts, my
• 26:10
  S7: heart's racing and my suffering. No, I'm marathon training and
• 26:14
  S7: I know this is what happens when you train for
• 26:16
  S7: a marathon so you can have, um, emotional trauma, emotional hardship, Sadness,
• 26:24
  S7: bewilderment with no physical pain. Of course they can go together, right?
• 26:29
  S7: Or you can have physical pain. And it's not traumatic.
• 26:33
  S7: You've been able to adjust to it. You know what
• 26:35
  S7: it's about. It doesn't bring you any discouragement or hardship.
• 26:39
  S7: So I think we should take pain and suffering on
• 26:42
  S7: a case by case basis and ask her. Ask him.
• 26:47
  S7: Tell me what's going on.
• 26:49
  S6: The theology of suffering. The word theology matched with suffering
• 26:53
  S6: can be uncomfortable. But why frame that out? Why that
• 26:59
  S6: even exists? That there is a theology here.
• 27:01
  S7: Right, right. So when we talk about theology, we talk
• 27:04
  S7: about looking at what all the Bible says and trying
• 27:09
  S7: to make sense of what all the Bible says on
• 27:11
  S7: a topic. So we can talk about a theology of
• 27:13
  S7: God the Father, right? So Andrew and I try to
• 27:16
  S7: look at what all the Bible says about the pain
• 27:20
  S7: and the suffering we go through and what become some
• 27:23
  S7: commonalities to it. What becomes some causes for it? What?
• 27:27
  S7: What shows up as poor ways of suffering or godly
• 27:32
  S7: ways of suffering? So in other words, we're trying to
• 27:35
  S7: follow Scripture and and follow godly examples of how they suffered.
• 27:40
  S7: And so one of the things we need to learn
• 27:42
  S7: is that there have been godly, godly people who've suffered
• 27:47
  S7: emotionally quite, quite badly. But this doesn't mean they're less
• 27:52
  S7: pleasing to God.
• 27:53
  S6: Mhm.
• 27:54
  S5: Can suffering and the fruit of the spirit cohabitate?
• 27:59
  S7: I think they can. Right. Love. Joy. Peace, patience. I
• 28:02
  S7: think they can cohabitate. Let's just let's just talk about
• 28:06
  S7: joy just for just for a minute. Um, when Paul says,
• 28:10
  S7: rejoice in the Lord always. Let's look at this word always.
• 28:14
  S7: All right. I take it that Paul is encouraging joy
• 28:18
  S7: as a habit. Joy as something that's consistent in the life,
• 28:23
  S7: not necessarily joy as something that's 247 365. Let's look
• 28:27
  S7: at how Jesus uses this word when he says always
• 28:30
  S7: when he says in John eight, I always please my
• 28:33
  S7: heavenly Father. Oh, well, then we know that is every
• 28:37
  S7: second of all eternity. But another time he says to
• 28:40
  S7: the high priest, you want to know about my teaching?
• 28:43
  S7: I always taught in synagogues and in the temple. Wait, Jesus,
• 28:47
  S7: I heard that once you taught from a boat. Isn't
• 28:49
  S7: that not included? No, no no no, by always I
• 28:52
  S7: mean that was my settled habit. So yes, I think
• 28:56
  S7: our life can have joy as a characteristic while also
• 29:02
  S7: we have anger over unrighteousness, while also we have sadness
• 29:09
  S7: with our Christian brothers and sisters. I mean, what does
• 29:12
  S7: Romans 12 say? It says, rejoice with those who rejoice
• 29:16
  S7: and tell those who weep why they shouldn't know, it says,
• 29:19
  S7: and weep with those who weep. Yes. So. So sometimes
• 29:23
  S7: Scripture has tensions and we just have to ask, how
• 29:27
  S7: can I how can I hold these tensions together and
• 29:30
  S7: do all that the word is encouraging me to do?
• 29:34
  S5: What an important conversation. More with Doctor Gerald Peterman. How
• 29:38
  S5: do we find hope in pain and suffering? What can
• 29:43
  S5: Jesus do to give us freedom, release and hope. Straight ahead.
• 29:50
  S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 29:53
  S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram.
• 29:55
  S5: Carl and crew were having. In the middle of a
• 29:57
  S5: great conversation with Doctor Gerald Peterman, professor of Bible here
• 30:01
  S5: at Moody Bible Institute. And we're talking about this gap
• 30:05
  S5: between pain and grace, a biblical theology of suffering. Uh,
• 30:09
  S5: there's a, there's, we've, we've already established that some people
• 30:13
  S5: feel like something is wrong with me if I'm in
• 30:17
  S5: this pain and suffering. And I think the the most
• 30:22
  S5: obvious question people have is, how do I get out
• 30:26
  S5: of this? And it brings a lot of theological twists
• 30:30
  S5: to it because God is sovereign over all things, and
• 30:33
  S5: sometimes these things will persist. So what do you say, Gerald?
• 30:38
  S7: Well, I'm not so sure. We should always try to
• 30:41
  S7: get out, but I can understand why someone might be
• 30:44
  S7: reaching the end of her rope or his rope. I mean,
• 30:46
  S7: imagine you have a child with a severe birth defect
• 30:51
  S7: who lives. Thanks be to God, right? But through ten
• 30:55
  S7: years and 15 years and 20 years, your life is
• 30:58
  S7: challenged because you must adjust. And you you wanted something
• 31:02
  S7: different for him or her, and you have to come
• 31:05
  S7: to grips with this. So the challenge of helping this
• 31:08
  S7: individual never leaves you, which means maybe the sadness never
• 31:13
  S7: leaves you as well. But I think God can help
• 31:16
  S7: us to persevere with that sadness and find some sense of.
• 31:21
  S7: He's been with me. He's helped me. I had only
• 31:25
  S7: get to this point of having served this way for
• 31:26
  S7: 15 years because because the Holy Spirit has been empowering me.
• 31:31
  S7: So the end point for me is can I live
• 31:33
  S7: together both with hope and with suffering?
• 31:37
  S6: Mhm. A lot of times people will, in their pain
• 31:40
  S6: and suffering, it's easy to feel like God is far.
• 31:43
  S6: I don't sense God. And the flip side of that
• 31:46
  S6: is there are times when in our pain and suffering,
• 31:48
  S6: that's when we feel God. The closest. How is God
• 31:51
  S6: personally involved in our pain and suffering? And how can
• 31:54
  S6: we be more aware of his presence?
• 31:57
  S7: I think we should go to Jesus, right? We should
• 31:59
  S7: go to Jesus, and we should get really familiar with
• 32:03
  S7: times in the Gospels when he was obviously in pain.
• 32:07
  S7: And then we can know that he understands us in
• 32:10
  S7: our pain, that he he can feel the pain that
• 32:14
  S7: we're in. He has. He has felt it so. Luke 19.
• 32:19
  S7: Jesus is coming into the city for the last week
• 32:21
  S7: of his life. He comes up over the Mount of Olives.
• 32:24
  S7: He sees the city and. Luke 1941 says he wept
• 32:28
  S7: over it. He knows it's judgment is coming. That is,
• 32:32
  S7: maybe we have a husband or a wife, a child,
• 32:37
  S7: a grandparent, someone who who we know is in disobedience.
• 32:41
  S7: And we have prayed and we've prayed and we've prayed
• 32:43
  S7: and we agonize over it. Our Lord has been there.
• 32:46
  S7: He knows what we're going through, and he will help
• 32:49
  S7: us persevere through it. I'd say keep talking with him
• 32:52
  S7: about it and keep searching the scriptures for when Jesus
• 32:56
  S7: encountered something like you've encountered.
• 32:59
  S5: You know, Doctor Peterman, there's a central passage in second
• 33:03
  S5: Corinthians four. You've probably dealt with this in a theology
• 33:07
  S5: of suffering, because Paul articulates something very interesting. He says,
• 33:11
  S5: we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed, perplexed
• 33:16
  S5: but not driven to despair. Persecuted but not forsaken. Struck
• 33:22
  S5: down but not destroyed. It's almost like and I've I've, I've,
• 33:26
  S5: I've just pondered this here even recently. It's almost like
• 33:29
  S5: he's saying it's really bad, but it's not that bad. Right?
• 33:34
  S7: Well, something like that. It's really bad, but it's not
• 33:37
  S7: that bad. Uh, I think God gave Paul and I
• 33:41
  S7: think God can give to us insights in the, in
• 33:45
  S7: those depths, in friends who will come when we're in
• 33:48
  S7: those depths to say that God is still with us.
• 33:51
  S7: God has not forsaken us. And Karl, later in second
• 33:55
  S7: Corinthians chapter 11, Paul gives us a list of suffering
• 34:00
  S7: that includes being 40 lashes minus one five times, beaten
• 34:04
  S7: with rods, three times, shipwrecked three times, often cold and
• 34:09
  S7: hungry and exposure. Um, and but.
• 34:12
  S5: When you get to Hebrews 11, for crying out loud.
• 34:14
  S8: Oh yeah, that's right.
• 34:16
  S7: I'm going to I'm going to laugh about it or
• 34:17
  S7: I'm going to cry about it.
• 34:18
  S8: Right.
• 34:19
  S7: Um, but, uh, he had the presence of God and
• 34:24
  S7: he knew he was doing the will of God by
• 34:27
  S7: being a pioneering church planter, which cost him. So what
• 34:33
  S7: are we doing?
• 34:34
  S8: Yeah.
• 34:34
  S7: Are we in God's will? We know we're doing his will.
• 34:37
  S7: Then there we can begin to find some encouragement.
• 34:40
  S8: Oh!
• 34:40
  S5: That's huge. They'll hold it. Time out! That's huge. Knowing
• 34:46
  S5: the will of God. Even if the will of God
• 34:48
  S5: puts you in the bull's eye of satanic attack, there
• 34:54
  S5: is hope. Knowing the will of God isn't there?
• 34:56
  S8: There is.
• 34:57
  S7: And. And Jesus is in the will of God. Jesus
• 35:01
  S7: is in the will of God, doing exactly what he
• 35:04
  S7: ought to be doing when he is in the garden,
• 35:06
  S7: sweating blood and crying out to his father that there
• 35:10
  S7: be some other way. but he doesn't go any other way. Right?
• 35:15
  S7: He completes the plan.
• 35:17
  S6: Doctor Peterman, before we conclude our time with you. Give
• 35:19
  S6: a give a quick thought on ministering to those in
• 35:22
  S6: in comfort or ministering to those who are in pain.
• 35:26
  S6: It was a lot of times we can get it
• 35:28
  S6: horribly wrong. We can have good intentions, but can sometimes
• 35:32
  S6: miss it. Got about a minute and a half. Go ahead.
• 35:34
  S7: Uh, I think the first thing is listening, uh, asking
• 35:38
  S7: about what's going on. Um, will you let me into
• 35:40
  S7: your life? Will you tell me about what's happening? Can you,
• 35:43
  S7: can you can you give me the reasons, the causes?
• 35:45
  S7: Can we talk about your feelings? Ask some questions. Make
• 35:49
  S7: it your first goal to get them to the place
• 35:52
  S7: where they know you have understood what they're going through.
• 35:56
  S7: And then you're beginning all. All the time you're praying, Lord,
• 36:00
  S7: help me with this conversation. Right? Then what can you detect?
• 36:04
  S7: Maybe is a is an encouragement they haven't received yet?
• 36:07
  S7: Or what can you detect? Maybe along the way is
• 36:10
  S7: a correction. They haven't received yet. So you earn the
• 36:15
  S7: right to deliver those things by first making sure you
• 36:19
  S7: listen carefully, and then maybe over the course of a
• 36:21
  S7: few minutes or maybe an hour long conversation. Who knows? Yeah.
• 36:24
  S7: God will give you something that you can bring for
• 36:27
  S7: further encouragement or maybe for correction.
• 36:31
  S5: Uh, this is a 15 second question. How important, how
• 36:34
  S5: vital is the truth of who we are in Jesus Christ?
• 36:37
  S8: Yes. We have to.
• 36:38
  S7: Rely upon the spirit in us, and he's the one
• 36:41
  S7: who guides us. He's the one who gives us wisdom,
• 36:44
  S7: and he will promise it to us, and he will
• 36:46
  S7: give it to us in that conversation.
• 36:48
  S6: Doctor Gerald Peterman, he has a book called Between Pain
• 36:52
  S6: and Grace. In addition to the course that he teaches,
• 36:54
  S6: it uses some of the same principles. I want to
• 36:57
  S6: make sure that you get this resource or have access
• 36:59
  S6: to it. Just text pain to 805 557898 for more
• 37:04
  S6: on the book. More on our guest. Just text pain
• 37:07
  S6: to 805 5557898.
• 37:11
  S5: Doctor Gerald Peterman, I want to thank you for being
• 37:13
  S5: in here today. What a wonderful, wonderful topic. And it's
• 37:18
  S5: wonderful because it's a real challenge for many. Text pain
• 37:22
  S5: to 805 557898. Text pain to 805 557898.
• 37:32
  S1: Your shot of hope to help you through the day.
• 37:35
  S1: This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 37:39
  S5: Yeah, man. Uh, are you a big movie goer? Ali?
• 37:43
  S6: I am not, I'm not. I'm trying to remember the
• 37:46
  S6: last time. I think the last movie I saw in
• 37:49
  S6: theaters was the Michael Jackson movie. That was a couple
• 37:52
  S6: months ago.
• 37:53
  S5: Oh, I didn't even know there was one out. That's
• 37:55
  S5: how to deal with that.
• 37:57
  S6: Well, it's I, I don't know if it's still in theaters,
• 37:59
  S6: but it was fairly recently.
• 38:01
  S5: Okay.
• 38:01
  S6: What about you, boy?
• 38:02
  S5: Last movie I went to.
• 38:04
  S6: In the theaters.
• 38:06
  S5: Oh. I don't even know. It's been like two years.
• 38:11
  S6: Wow.
• 38:14
  S5: I don't know. Might have been a year.
• 38:18
  S4: Okay.
• 38:19
  S5: I remember the first movie I ever remember seeing in theaters. Yeah.
• 38:25
  S6: Okay. What was that.
• 38:26
  S5: Was. Um. Um. No, I'm going to forget the name
• 38:29
  S5: of it. Uh, jungle book. Jungle book? Or is that
• 38:31
  S5: the name of it?
• 38:32
  S6: Oh, yeah. The Disney movie.
• 38:33
  S5: Yeah. Way, way back in the day. I'm talking long
• 38:36
  S5: before I was.
• 38:37
  S9: Yeah.
• 38:38
  S6: Way.
• 38:39
  S5: Yeah, yeah. We're talking way book way back. Um, and then,
• 38:43
  S5: you know, because that was, that was big for me
• 38:46
  S5: as a kid. Uh, boom crew. What's first movie you
• 38:49
  S5: ever saw in your life?
• 38:51
  S6: In theaters. In theaters? I want to hear this. This
• 38:53
  S6: is going to be a good one because, I mean,
• 38:56
  S6: movies capture a certain like you, you associate movies with
• 38:59
  S6: a certain period of time in history, right? Yeah, yeah.
• 39:03
  S6: So don't be afraid to tell us that first movie
• 39:05
  S6: you saw in theaters, even if it dates you a
• 39:08
  S6: little bit. None of us are getting any younger. What
• 39:11
  S6: was that first movie you remember seeing in a theater
• 39:13
  S6: or a drive in? 800 555, 7898 text 805 557898.
• 39:21
  S5: Before we had a big theater in the little town
• 39:23
  S5: I was raised in, well, not raised in, but for
• 39:26
  S5: my sophomore junior senior year of high school. Oh my goodness.
• 39:30
  S5: I've never met a more crotchety old guy that owned
• 39:33
  S5: a theater. It was a privately owned deal. It was one.
• 39:35
  S5: It was one screen. No joking. He would take your
• 39:39
  S5: money like he was ticked off at you.
• 39:42
  S9: Oh.
• 39:43
  S5: That's $4. And I mean, he was the talk of
• 39:46
  S5: the town.
• 39:47
  S6: Okay. $4. I'm stuck there. When was the movie? Only $4?
• 39:52
  S5: It was four bucks. Sound of music came in here.
• 39:55
  S5: Star Wars, Star Wars.
• 39:58
  S6: Bambi, Old Yeller, snow white, snow white. Yep. Disney's the
• 40:04
  S6: sword and the stone, huh? So what about you, Snow White?
• 40:09
  S4: I remember Snow White, and I remember a Winnie the Pooh. Oh,
• 40:13
  S4: those are the two that kind of stick out for
• 40:14
  S4: me being little E.T..
• 40:17
  S5: The Ten Commandments.
• 40:18
  S6: Rocky.
• 40:19
  S9: True grit. Rocky. Jaws.
• 40:21
  S6: Jaws. I was terrified.
• 40:24
  S9: That's pretty good. Footloose.
• 40:27
  S6: Old yeller. It's amazing how many of these are the
• 40:29
  S6: Disney classics where the first introduction to the theater for
• 40:32
  S6: a lot of people.
• 40:34
  S9: Nice.
• 40:34
  S5: Yeah, this is fun. We got a lot of old
• 40:36
  S5: yellers here. When did Old Yeller come?
• 40:39
  S6: Was that the dog?
• 40:40
  S9: Yeah.
• 40:41
  S4: Yeah.
• 40:42
  S9: It's. It's sad.
• 40:43
  S6: Is it sad?
• 40:44
  S9: I feel like so many of those.
• 40:45
  S6: Why were so many of those kids movies have, like,
• 40:48
  S6: a rip your heart out ending like Bambi? I mean,
• 40:51
  S6: many people still haven't recovered.
• 40:54
  S4: Or even like.
• 40:55
  S9: Lion King. I mean.
• 40:58
  S6: Wow, that one really hurt.
• 41:01
  S4: It did. It really, really did.
• 41:04
  S6: That little lion, in the way that they depict his sadness.
• 41:07
  S6: And it was a cartoon lion. But wow.
• 41:10
  S4: The little paw. Oh.
• 41:12
  S5: Hold on, hold on. Let's go. On a better note here.
• 41:14
  S5: Herbie rides again.
• 41:15
  S6: Okay, Herbie the Love Bug.
• 41:17
  S5: Yes, Herbie Love Bug was one of my second or
• 41:19
  S5: third flicks. I mean, that was so good.
• 41:22
  S4: So cute.
• 41:23
  S6: Rambo. Whoa!
• 41:27
  S5: All right, if your first flick in a theater is Rambo.
• 41:31
  S5: I know, first off, that's a dude. There ain't no
• 41:34
  S5: way that ain't anything but a dude.
• 41:36
  S4: Because he goes, what were my parents thinking? That's pretty good.
• 41:40
  S6: Oh, 101 Dalmatians.
• 41:41
  S4: Yes, yes.
• 41:43
  S6: Also some sad stuff there.
• 41:44
  S8: Yeah.
• 41:45
  S5: What's Flashdance? Never heard of that one.
• 41:47
  S6: I don't know.
• 41:48
  S4: A woman wants to become a dancer. It's. Yeah.
• 41:51
  S5: Okay.
• 41:51
  S4: It makes it into Juilliard and all that good stuff, so. Yeah.
• 41:54
  S5: Oh, wow. Okay. Bad news Bears.
• 41:58
  S4: Oh, yeah, a little a little tough.
• 42:01
  S6: Mary Poppins first edition.
• 42:03
  S4: Of the original. Yeah, that's a great movie. There's a
• 42:07
  S4: great movie. Yeah.
• 42:10
  S5: Somebody said jaws, and it ruined our summer in Pensacola, Florida.
• 42:15
  S6: I mean, right.
• 42:19
  S5: I mean. Oh, that is hilarious.
• 42:22
  S6: We're sitting in the middle of central Illinois worried about
• 42:25
  S6: shark attacks.
• 42:28
  S4: That's hilarious.
• 42:30
  S6: This is an irrational fear.
• 42:33
  S5: I stand and applaud you on that one. Ali, we're
• 42:36
  S5: in central Illinois and we're freaked out by jaws. That's hilarious.
• 42:39
  S6: You play that music right now and everybody's running it.
• 42:42
  S5: I ain't going, I ain't going near Lake Michigan. I
• 42:46
  S5: ain't gonna go near it. It's not the ocean I'm going.
• 42:49
  S5: I know jaws is in there. Willy Wonka.
• 42:53
  S4: Okay. Very good.
• 42:56
  S5: Apple dumpling gang. I've never heard of that movie.
• 42:58
  S4: Oh, that was cute. With, um, Barney Fife. My goodness,
• 43:01
  S4: his name eludes me right now.
• 43:03
  S5: Oh.
• 43:03
  S4: It's, um. He was in.
• 43:04
  S5: It. Don Knotts.
• 43:05
  S4: Thank.
• 43:05
  S5: You. Yeah.
• 43:06
  S4: Thank you, thank you.
• 43:07
  S5: Oh my goodness.
• 43:08
  S6: Okay.
• 43:09
  S4: Oh! Born free.
• 43:10
  S5: Born free. That's a good flick. Another tear jerker?
• 43:15
  S4: Yes.
• 43:17
  S5: Why are all the good ones tearjerkers.
• 43:19
  S4: Like, uh.
• 43:20
  S6: The aristocrats. Around the world in 80 days. In the 1950s,
• 43:24
  S6: they said I was in a downtown theater in Chicago.
• 43:26
  S6: I remember the screen was curved. Oh.
• 43:30
  S4: Okay.
• 43:31
  S5: Okay, so Ali's ripping me for $4 movies, and now
• 43:34
  S5: we got someone just chimed in. Here goes. In the
• 43:37
  S5: 50s Westerns for $0.25 every Friday night. How did you
• 43:42
  S5: make money? Even in the 50s, at a quarter a flick?
• 43:46
  S6: Well, a lot more people went to the movies. Don't
• 43:49
  S6: you think? As loaded? Yeah. Like I feel like nowadays
• 43:53
  S6: you could, at any given moment, you go in the
• 43:55
  S6: movie theater and it's pretty empty. I mean, unless it's
• 43:57
  S6: like a big release and it's the opening night.
• 44:00
  S4: Oh, I don't know. Like if you watch. Like I
• 44:02
  S4: Love Lucy, they would get decked out like if they
• 44:05
  S4: were going out to the movie theater. It was an evening.
• 44:07
  S6: It was an experience.
• 44:08
  S4: Yes.
• 44:10
  S5: Yeah. No space.
• 44:11
  S6: Jam.
• 44:13
  S5: Shows up in gym shorts and t shirts that have been.
• 44:15
  S4: Blankets.
• 44:16
  S5: Working in the yard all day, sweating profusely, got sweat, salt,
• 44:20
  S5: wrinkles around it. You know, the whole deal. Oh that's funny. Okay.
• 44:24
  S5: There's there's reason for this madness. Take it away.
• 44:27
  S6: There is. Maybe you should get to a theater this weekend.
• 44:30
  S6: There is a brand new movie out today with one
• 44:33
  S6: of the most epic Bible stories going. It's the story
• 44:38
  S6: of Daniel where you're going to hear from the filmmakers
• 44:41
  S6: coming up.
• 44:42
  S1: Standing on the Rock each and every day. You're listening
• 44:47
  S1: to Carl and crew.
• 44:48
  S5: Every once in a while, we have an opportunity to
• 44:50
  S5: really tee up a treat. Boy, we got one today. Ali.
• 44:53
  S6: Yeah, it is a movie that is releasing today. Daniel
• 44:57
  S6: and the fiery furnace. If ever there was a story
• 45:00
  S6: in the Bible made for the big screen.
• 45:02
  S5: Yeah, but this would be one. And I got one
• 45:04
  S5: crazy question that I'm going to ask these guys ready for. This.
• 45:08
  S5: Is the fourth guy in the furnace A.I. or is
• 45:12
  S5: it some image or is it generated somehow? Or is
• 45:15
  S5: it a dude? That's what I want to know. So
• 45:17
  S5: we got them here. Right now, Matthew and Daniel Coleman
• 45:20
  S5: are with us. They are writer and director brother duo.
• 45:23
  S5: And you guys have been doing this now for a while.
• 45:26
  S5: I just want to say thank you so much for
• 45:31
  S5: putting the work into this great effort. We're fired up
• 45:34
  S5: to have you guys with us today.
• 45:36
  S10: Well, thank you so much. And if there's one thing
• 45:38
  S10: to spend your life and definitely your life sweat on,
• 45:41
  S10: it'd be the word of God. I mean, there's nothing
• 45:42
  S10: more inspiring to open every day and to bring to
• 45:45
  S10: the set of a movie. So it's been a thrill.
• 45:47
  S5: Yeah. I don't think we're giving away the punch line
• 45:49
  S5: when we say the fourth man in the fire. I
• 45:53
  S5: am really curious, how did you depict that? Was it
• 45:56
  S5: a wrestling match to figure out how to do that.
• 45:59
  S5: Tell us how that went down.
• 46:00
  S11: You know, the whole film is and filmmaking is just
• 46:03
  S11: a process of troubleshooting and problem solving from screenwriting all
• 46:07
  S11: the way to VFX and marketing the distribution of a film.
• 46:12
  S11: So it's, it's quite a task for depicting such a
• 46:15
  S11: critical moment, you know, in history, which it really is.
• 46:18
  S11: It's a moment that inspired the world, changed the world.
• 46:22
  S11: We used a number of different techniques. We used a
• 46:24
  S11: lot of practicals. Like a lot of what we did
• 46:26
  S11: is practical. We did a lot of compositing and VFX,
• 46:29
  S11: and we can get into the Fourth Man and the fire.
• 46:32
  S5: You know what? I don't I don't want to give
• 46:34
  S5: that away. I think, I think I'm changing my mind
• 46:36
  S5: on that. I want to leave that. But but the
• 46:39
  S5: bottom line guys is you're listening to God as you're
• 46:42
  S5: developing these things, aren't you?
• 46:44
  S11: Definitely.
• 46:45
  S10: One of the things that really shook us and why
• 46:47
  S10: we made the movie is it's basically the outline of
• 46:50
  S10: all of Gentile history in advance. So the story of,
• 46:54
  S10: you know, the Bible says that salvation is first for
• 46:56
  S10: the Jews and then for the Gentiles. And it's the
• 46:58
  S10: story overarching of the Jews and the narrative leading to
• 47:01
  S10: their Messiah. But when Daniel and his friends are exiled
• 47:03
  S10: to Babylon, the entire history of the Gentiles is unfolded
• 47:07
  S10: with the four greatest kingdoms that ever were leading up
• 47:10
  S10: to the one great and everlasting kingdom that Daniel prophesied
• 47:14
  S10: of in Daniel chapter two, which is, you know that
• 47:17
  S10: rock not cut out from human hands, that comes and
• 47:19
  S10: shatters all the kingdoms of this world to pieces, and
• 47:23
  S10: becomes the everlasting kingdom, which will have no end. And
• 47:26
  S10: when we kind of began to just imagine that, and
• 47:29
  S10: Daniel seeing who he called and he named the Son
• 47:32
  S10: of Man bar Anak in Aramaic, which was this name
• 47:36
  S10: that Jesus Christ took for himself all those years later
• 47:38
  S10: when he said, the prophet Daniel spoke of me, and
• 47:41
  S10: I am that Son of man. That was literally the
• 47:43
  S10: earth shattering moment in all of human history. Daniel predicted it.
• 47:47
  S10: He saw it in advance. He was a true prophet.
• 47:49
  S10: And just to be able to tell that story and
• 47:52
  S10: to say, you know what? All of this is about
• 47:53
  S10: the Messiah.
• 47:54
  S5: That is beautiful.
• 47:55
  S6: Wow. The story, of course, set in ancient Babylon, follows Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach,
• 48:00
  S6: and Abednego as they confront power, persecution, the cost of
• 48:03
  S6: remaining faithful in a culture that challenges their convictions. Whenever
• 48:07
  S6: you take a story from Scripture and try to adapt
• 48:11
  S6: it in this way, what were the challenges of doing this?
• 48:14
  S6: You want to remain true to the Word of God.
• 48:17
  S6: You also want to make it really, really compelling to watch.
• 48:21
  S6: What did you wrestle with most when it came to
• 48:23
  S6: bringing this to the screen?
• 48:25
  S11: It is such a biblically epic tale that needs needs
• 48:28
  S11: to be on the big screen. So one thing is
• 48:30
  S11: you need a budget, and you need to be able
• 48:32
  S11: to come up with the funds to pull it off,
• 48:35
  S11: because there's hundreds of people involved in this production, right?
• 48:38
  S11: You know, we ask God what story he wanted us
• 48:40
  S11: to tell. We've been asking that for years. And with
• 48:43
  S11: this film, we said, if you don't want us to
• 48:44
  S11: make this movie, don't give us a script. In two weeks,
• 48:47
  S11: we we were able to get a script together mostly
• 48:50
  S11: over one week. We worked on it, getting the first
• 48:53
  S11: draft and it was like, wow, God's really pumping this
• 48:55
  S11: thing out and making it happen. But you know, we
• 48:57
  S11: needed an army of people funding it behind us. And
• 49:00
  S11: so we used a crowdfunding platform actually to get it funded.
• 49:03
  S11: That was probably our biggest challenge, was knowing we were
• 49:06
  S11: going to be able to get to the finish line
• 49:08
  S11: with that side of it. The creative side is fun
• 49:11
  S11: and challenging, but God has really had his hand in
• 49:13
  S11: it throughout the whole process. And that that was a
• 49:16
  S11: really like an amazing part of the journey was just
• 49:18
  S11: seeing God work through it.
• 49:20
  S5: It seems like this would be difficult because of the
• 49:25
  S5: I mean, you just take the scene of that fiery
• 49:29
  S5: furnace and the heat that consumed those that were bystanders
• 49:34
  S5: and those that were part of trying to put these
• 49:37
  S5: guys to death. I don't even know how in the
• 49:41
  S5: world you're going to do this. I can't wait to
• 49:43
  S5: go see it. And there's a lot of people listening
• 49:45
  S5: right now that are going, yeah, we got to see that.
• 49:47
  S5: That's a massive undertaking, isn't it?
• 49:50
  S10: It really is. And, you know, one of the reasons
• 49:52
  S10: that the Book of Daniel is so cinematic is the
• 49:54
  S10: stories leap off the page. I mean, they're still part
• 49:56
  S10: of modern culture. You know, these words that people say
• 49:59
  S10: he's in the he's in the lions den. He's going
• 50:01
  S10: through the fiery furnace. The writing's on the wall. You know,
• 50:03
  S10: these all come from the book of Daniel. And it's
• 50:05
  S10: a timeless story. And we wanted to depict that profoundly
• 50:08
  S10: because it's such a profound story. I mean, when people
• 50:10
  S10: read that, we believe that they'll picture this scene and
• 50:15
  S10: we say, and to borrow a great quote from Chris Martin,
• 50:18
  S10: you know, this is a scene that you have to
• 50:19
  S10: see before you die. You have to see this because
• 50:22
  S10: it is depicted as a miracle as it was. And
• 50:24
  S10: it's profoundly performed by incredible talent when they walk into
• 50:28
  S10: the fiery furnace. You believe the miracle and you know,
• 50:31
  S10: it's a human moment where fear would have overtaken them,
• 50:33
  S10: just like you and I as you walk into those flames.
• 50:36
  S10: But then the words of Isaiah come into your mind
• 50:38
  S10: as they walk through the fire. They will not be burned.
• 50:41
  S10: And they were there was faith to go into those flames.
• 50:43
  S10: And what an incredible moment. I mean, it's such a
• 50:45
  S10: moment that we're still talking about it today.
• 50:47
  S6: Matthew and Daniel come in with us right now. they
• 50:50
  S6: are the filmmakers behind Daniel and the Fiery Furnace, which
• 50:52
  S6: releases in theaters today. Coming up, let's find out a
• 50:56
  S6: little bit more about these guys. So how did God
• 50:59
  S6: call them? Out of darkness, into light, and then into
• 51:02
  S6: this incredible calling of making movies that tell important stories?
• 51:07
  S6: More with Matthew and Daniel coming up.
• 51:09
  S1: Your shot of hope to help you through the day.
• 51:12
  S1: This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 51:16
  S5: Matthew and Daniel coming with us right now. And Ali,
• 51:19
  S5: you you nailed it. We got to get these filmmakers.
• 51:22
  S5: We got to hear their story. We know they're radically
• 51:25
  S5: committed Jesus followers, but how did that happen?
• 51:27
  S6: Yeah. They're storytellers. So let's get their story. Matthew, we'll
• 51:31
  S6: start with you.
• 51:32
  S11: You know, we grew up in a Christian home. We've
• 51:34
  S11: always been seeking God and reading the word. So the
• 51:38
  S11: parents had the Bible open at dinner. You know, after dinner,
• 51:40
  S11: we'd read the Bible together. My dad would always he'd
• 51:43
  S11: read a line of scripture, and then you never knew
• 51:46
  S11: when he would stop, but he would stop. And then
• 51:48
  S11: we'd have to guess the word that was coming next.
• 51:50
  S11: That was his method. That's one of the methods I
• 51:52
  S11: use with my kids, too, where it's like, you know,
• 51:54
  S11: try to keep them engaged. So as kids, that was
• 51:57
  S11: one way that they did that. And you know, we
• 51:59
  S11: grew up in church and with Sunday school and all
• 52:01
  S11: that and knew all the Bible stories. And then after
• 52:04
  S11: high school, dad and I both got involved in starting
• 52:08
  S11: a film company. We, we debated going to film school,
• 52:11
  S11: but as the rebellious entrepreneurs we were trying to be,
• 52:15
  S11: we decided instead of paying all that money for film school,
• 52:17
  S11: we would just invest in gear and our own stuff.
• 52:20
  S11: We basically bought ourselves our film studio and made a
• 52:23
  S11: movie that was our first film project. We call it
• 52:26
  S11: our film school. And then we brought that home and
• 52:28
  S11: we did a premiere of it in our town, and
• 52:31
  S11: we brought out like ten 000 people in our town
• 52:33
  S11: of like probably 80,000 people at the time. It was
• 52:36
  S11: like a big event and everybody came out. I think
• 52:39
  S11: it lit a fire in us that God was behind
• 52:41
  S11: what we were doing. And then so that's 20 years ago.
• 52:44
  S11: Jump forward to 2023 and the market has just shifted.
• 52:49
  S11: You know, there's a there's a demand and a desire
• 52:51
  S11: for biblical stories qualities getting so much better. And we're
• 52:55
  S11: also able to get talent involved that we never were
• 52:58
  S11: able to get before. So you can you can put
• 53:01
  S11: these pieces together with technology and cast and the market
• 53:05
  S11: wanting these stories has enabled us to, you know, really follow,
• 53:11
  S11: I believe, what God called us to do, which is
• 53:12
  S11: bring his stories to the big screen. That's been our
• 53:15
  S11: our journey. Just keep one step forward and wait for
• 53:17
  S11: God's timing.
• 53:18
  S6: Daniel, I want to go to you. You know what
• 53:20
  S6: a privilege to be raised in a in a Christian
• 53:22
  S6: home where the Word of God was opened and. Explained Daniel,
• 53:26
  S6: from your own story. Our experience here on the show
• 53:29
  S6: is that oftentimes people who are raised in a Christian home,
• 53:32
  S6: it's a great foundation, but there has to come a
• 53:35
  S6: point in time for where you decide, this is not
• 53:37
  S6: the faith of my parents. This is not the faith
• 53:40
  S6: of just the church I grew up in. This is
• 53:42
  S6: my faith. When did that happen for you, Daniel? know.
• 53:45
  S10: Honestly, I and I can't speak specifically for Matt, but
• 53:48
  S10: it may have happened almost at a similar time. You know,
• 53:50
  S10: when we got that film gear, as Matt mentioned, and
• 53:53
  S10: we took it, we actually went to Kenya, India, Thailand
• 53:55
  S10: and Malaysia. We went on a trip around the world
• 53:57
  S10: and we began to think about, as you know, young men,
• 54:01
  S10: you initially, at least for myself, it was like you
• 54:03
  S10: have these Hollywood dreams. You have this idea of what
• 54:05
  S10: could be filmmaking. Well, God has way bigger plans than Hollywood.
• 54:09
  S10: I mean, Hollywood can like bend down a knee and
• 54:11
  S10: worship Jesus because Hollywood needs to turn to God. And
• 54:15
  S10: we found that out in real time, because our entire
• 54:18
  S10: vision for filmmaking, at least for myself, was shifted on
• 54:21
  S10: its head. And the film, ironically, was about how the
• 54:24
  S10: kingdom is upside down. And so we found that to
• 54:28
  S10: get up, you got to get low. And so we,
• 54:30
  S10: we really learned about humility. And God calls us like
• 54:33
  S10: those listening. I mean, if you want to rise, get humble,
• 54:37
  S10: get low, lie down on your face and worship the
• 54:39
  S10: Lord Jesus. Because the thing is, I mean, we decided
• 54:43
  S10: that these are the stories we're telling, is like the
• 54:45
  S10: ones that elevate others, like those that are suffering in
• 54:47
  S10: mud huts in India. You know, like those that are
• 54:49
  S10: suffering around the world. I mean, we started telling these
• 54:52
  S10: stories and seeing like God is with those in suffering.
• 54:55
  S10: It was a revelation, honestly. It was like, we want
• 54:57
  S10: to tell God's stories. I mean, he came down, humbled himself,
• 55:00
  S10: became a man. You know, God came down to earth.
• 55:03
  S10: And that's the story of Daniel. I mean, the Messiah
• 55:06
  S10: came down and we just started to see that it
• 55:09
  S10: wasn't about the stories that the world might say could
• 55:11
  S10: be successful. It's like, you know what? The greatest Story
• 55:14
  S10: Ever told will always be the greatest story, and it's
• 55:16
  S10: the one that God's writing. And so yeah, it's been a,
• 55:18
  S10: it's been a thrill to shift our vision to try
• 55:20
  S10: to serve his.
• 55:21
  S5: Yeah. You know, you mentioned humility. That's a hallmark of
• 55:24
  S5: what we talk about around here. It's Andrew Murray who
• 55:27
  S5: wrote the book humility. And in it, he says a
• 55:30
  S5: lot of things, but not least of which is humility
• 55:33
  S5: is the one virtue that gives birth to every other virtue.
• 55:36
  S5: You know, you're in an industry that is going to
• 55:39
  S5: drag you. I mean, just think about this, Sally. They're
• 55:42
  S5: having to raise money. They're marketing this thing. I mean,
• 55:46
  S5: there's tactics and approaches that you're probably challenged or tempted
• 55:51
  S5: to compromise at certain junctures, because there's a lot of
• 55:54
  S5: shortcuts you can take in any industry. How is the
• 55:58
  S5: Holy Spirit kept you guys on point? I know it's
• 56:00
  S5: not perfect, but how has that worked?
• 56:03
  S11: I think like my journey is it's about a daily
• 56:07
  S11: checking and a daily pressing in. We've had decisions where
• 56:11
  S11: we've felt that, like, I, we don't know which way
• 56:14
  S11: to go. You know, we don't know which way to go.
• 56:16
  S11: And I can tell one story about we really did
• 56:20
  S11: just ask God. We asked God. We ask for our
• 56:22
  S11: prayer team to give us, you know, support. We asked
• 56:25
  S11: and then personally just asking God like to show up
• 56:28
  S11: and lead our steps. The only thing you can do
• 56:30
  S11: is trust that you're hearing from God and keep pressing in,
• 56:34
  S11: you know, seek him and you'll find him. And we
• 56:35
  S11: do mess up. There's not all perfect decisions, you know. Yeah.
• 56:39
  S11: One example of that, like him just showing up is
• 56:42
  S11: we had this a lot of issues with visas and
• 56:44
  S11: we filmed the movie in India, and we had issues
• 56:47
  S11: getting people to India from different countries that have issues
• 56:50
  S11: with India. And we didn't know all these things. The
• 56:53
  S11: geopolitical state of, you know, but one of our cast,
• 56:56
  S11: we had cast as the prophet Jeremiah, and he was
• 56:58
  S11: supposed to shoot, and we were waiting for his visa
• 57:00
  S11: to come through for weeks. And it wasn't coming through.
• 57:02
  S11: It wasn't coming through. And then, you know, we were
• 57:04
  S11: two days from filming and he wasn't there. We were like, oh,
• 57:07
  S11: we've got to figure this out. Like, we have to
• 57:09
  S11: shoot this in two days. There's no way we can
• 57:11
  S11: do without it. And one of our other, we had
• 57:13
  S11: cast someone else for the false prophet, Hananiah, son of Azar,
• 57:17
  S11: the false prophet in the story. And we had cast
• 57:19
  S11: him and he came to us and he said, you know, guys,
• 57:22
  S11: I've memorized every line of Jeremiah from the script already.
• 57:26
  S11: I heard you're having trouble getting him here. If you
• 57:29
  S11: need somebody else, I'm willing and ready and I'll do
• 57:31
  S11: it for free. And so we had asked our prayer
• 57:35
  S11: team to pray. And, um, you know, you're feeling the,
• 57:39
  S11: the struggle, Right? Where? God? Where are you? God? Like,
• 57:41
  S11: why aren't you showing up? We need answers. What is it?
• 57:44
  S11: And it was right in front of us. We didn't
• 57:46
  S11: know it. We just had to open our ears and listen.
• 57:48
  S12: It's a great story.
• 57:49
  S11: Yeah, it's an amazing way that God just weaves himself
• 57:52
  S11: into the story.
• 57:53
  S5: What do you think about these guys? I love.
• 57:55
  S6: These guys. I really, really love the heart behind it,
• 57:57
  S6: the passion I love. I love good storytelling because I
• 58:00
  S6: think it has such a power to touch the hearts
• 58:03
  S6: of people who may not even realize the message that's
• 58:06
  S6: being communicated until it fully. It's like you have to
• 58:09
  S6: take it in and then you see it in greater revelation.
• 58:12
  S6: I don't know, it's an interesting thing that happens when
• 58:14
  S6: when stories are told really well.
• 58:17
  S11: One thing to add, we had, um, we did all
• 58:19
  S11: these church advance screenings and we're kind of not into
• 58:22
  S11: the let's make an evangelistic movie. That's not our goal.
• 58:25
  S11: Our goal is to like, tell the story. You know,
• 58:27
  S11: the story works if it's good. We've been doing these
• 58:30
  S11: advance screenings. We got a video from our coordinator of
• 58:32
  S11: these screenings and he said, guys, check this out. And
• 58:34
  S11: it's the pastor. After the screening, he goes, you know,
• 58:37
  S11: some of you guys aren't believers here. And he does
• 58:39
  S11: an altar call after the screening, and 15 people come
• 58:43
  S11: up and get saved at the end of the at
• 58:45
  S11: the end of the movie.
• 58:46
  S13: I love it.
• 58:46
  S11: He said, uh, you know, our movie is not an
• 58:49
  S11: evangelistic movie, but it's evangelizing.
• 58:51
  S13: Yes.
• 58:52
  S11: That's God working. And that that really is for us,
• 58:54
  S11: the testimony of it being a success. And, you know,
• 58:58
  S11: we'll get critics and we'll get we're kind of looking
• 59:00
  S11: forward to getting slammed here and there.
• 59:02
  S13: And, you know.
• 59:03
  S11: We'll, uh, we'll try to bounce off that. But, you know,
• 59:06
  S11: if God is changing people's hearts, like, how can we
• 59:09
  S11: be against that?
• 59:09
  S6: Yeah. How can you make it without having critics? Right?
• 59:12
  S6: I mean, that's the stamp of approval right there.
• 59:15
  S13: Yeah. The movie, I.
• 59:16
  S5: Gotta tell you, they got the stuff going on here,
• 59:19
  S5: don't they, Alex?
• 59:19
  S6: I'm excited about this one. Daniel and the Fiery Furnace
• 59:22
  S6: releasing in theaters today. If you want more information, including
• 59:27
  S6: where you can see it in your area, just text
• 59:29
  S6: Daniel to 805 557898. Just one word, Daniel to 805 557898.