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How Curtis Barton Built ALKEME into a $2B Insurance Powerhouse · The Insurance Growth Lab

• Curtis Barton [0:00:00]: Working every piece of the business. Curtis Barton [0:00:00]: From reception and trash taking out to having nearly a three million dollar revenue book to have an eleven million dollar agency as a whole to taking it into our platform agency and doing acquisitions in m and a. Callan Harrington [0:00:15]: If you look at ALKEME, twenty one on insurance journal top one hundred, over fifteen hundred employees, ninety plus different offices across thirty five states, two billion in premiums written. Curtis Barton [0:00:25]: You've gotta constantly be thinking about how I reinvest into my people, how am I reinvest into my customers and how am I reinvest into my systems. Curtis Barton [0:00:33]: And if you're not thinking about that, you're gonna get left in the dust? Callan Harrington [0:00:37]: You guys are arming your producers with a process Ion technology to essentially put that on steroids. Callan Harrington [0:00:46]: What does that look like? Curtis Barton [0:00:48]: Pick a niche that you can be good at and then hyper niche. Curtis Barton [0:00:51]: We took in a step further my agency where we front branded every one of our producers had their own brand that they ran that was specifically geared towards the niche they were in. Curtis Barton [0:00:59]: When you know your product and you know the industry that you're going after, it makes your sales process that much more streamlined. Callan Harrington [0:01:18]: So, Curtis, you know, when I was research. Callan Harrington [0:01:20]: You've got about five million different stories that we could jump into. Callan Harrington [0:01:24]: But the thing that I'd love to start with is, to tell me about skiing. Callan Harrington [0:01:28]: What is it? Callan Harrington [0:01:29]: What it What what role is that played in your life? Curtis Barton [0:01:33]: You know, the funny thing about, you know, skiing. Curtis Barton [0:01:35]: Because I grew up in Southern California, I grew up by the beach, and my family actually my father who is in insurance, which will get to later, but he actually loved to ski. Curtis Barton [0:01:43]: So I spent a ton of time on the slopes. Curtis Barton [0:01:45]: And I picked it up really good As one of those things that you just naturally good at, you know, some people are naturally good other things. Curtis Barton [0:01:51]: But it's an area like, what I love about it is being outdoors one and the ability that I feel totally to to to a certain degree in control of where I'm at when I'm skiing. Curtis Barton [0:02:04]: And I feel like I've got full command and what's going on. Curtis Barton [0:02:06]: And there's a sense of security and freedom that comes with that. Curtis Barton [0:02:10]: And I try to use that in business a lot of times from a metaphor oracle standpoint. Curtis Barton [0:02:15]: And when I look at how I would command the slope is how I would, like, command the business. Curtis Barton [0:02:21]: I wanna feel the same thing. Curtis Barton [0:02:22]: And so I kinda trans transition the same thing from skiing. Curtis Barton [0:02:26]: You're always dealing with with terrain that's changing. Curtis Barton [0:02:28]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:02:29]: And I think that's... Curtis Barton [0:02:30]: That that correlates directly with where our business sits today, not only our business, but everybody's business. Curtis Barton [0:02:35]: And as we go through these these sea changes, in Ai and some other things that are attacking our business, it's it's pretty interesting to take on that same tactical approach is to be prepared for inconsistent conditions. Curtis Barton [0:02:51]: And being able to adapt to those quickly. Curtis Barton [0:02:53]: And for me, I think that is why I like skiing is because I can pick up and adapter very quickly to conditions changing fast on me and it feels very... Curtis Barton [0:03:02]: If feels very controllable. Callan Harrington [0:03:05]: You know, what's funny is I can empathize with that in a totally different world. Callan Harrington [0:03:09]: I, I so I do a good amount of improv sketch in and stand of comedy. Callan Harrington [0:03:15]: Right? Callan Harrington [0:03:15]: In an improv specifically. Callan Harrington [0:03:16]: What you just described is is pretty much that to the tea. Callan Harrington [0:03:20]: Like, you you know the basics. Callan Harrington [0:03:22]: And so as a result, you can get yourself out of anything. Callan Harrington [0:03:25]: Even though everything is being made up completely on the spot, which is why a lot of times I recommend people take an improv class, probably because it's easier because like if most people went out and just went and did skiing, like, you did, they, you know, break every bone in their body myself included. Callan Harrington [0:03:38]: But but I think that's so interesting. Callan Harrington [0:03:42]: Is that essentially though what you are saying, Like, you know that you're gonna get yourself out of this no matter what. Callan Harrington [0:03:46]: Because you flex that muscle five million times. Curtis Barton [0:03:50]: Yeah. Curtis Barton [0:03:50]: I mean, that's really it And you got command over what you know what to do. Curtis Barton [0:03:53]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:03:53]: And our our business isn't complicated. Curtis Barton [0:03:54]: No business is complicated at the end of the day. Curtis Barton [0:03:57]: You know you know what roadblocks are ahead you It's just challenge of, are you gonna be able to accept the roadblocks as they hit you? Curtis Barton [0:04:03]: And are you gonna adapt to them? Curtis Barton [0:04:04]: Are you gonna be able to change your course pattern? Curtis Barton [0:04:06]: Or are you gonna change your direction? Curtis Barton [0:04:08]: Are you gonna are you gonna blow through it? Curtis Barton [0:04:10]: What are you gonna do? Curtis Barton [0:04:11]: How are you gonna attack it? Curtis Barton [0:04:12]: And I think that that is is something that you're either bored with or not. Curtis Barton [0:04:17]: And, you know, being a leader is a tough position because people look at you and there's any type of sea change and they go, why are we doing that? Curtis Barton [0:04:24]: And so you know, I'm constantly navigating that, and I'm constantly attaching people to the power of why? Curtis Barton [0:04:30]: And why are we doing what we're doing? Curtis Barton [0:04:31]: And and making sure that we're communicating that across our team across the industry as to a remove that we make. Curtis Barton [0:04:37]: Why are we making that change happen? Curtis Barton [0:04:39]: And why is that change occurring? Curtis Barton [0:04:40]: It's not because I just woke up in the morning and felt like, doing it? Curtis Barton [0:04:43]: It's muscle memory kicking in and knowing, oh, I've been down this road before. Curtis Barton [0:04:47]: And I know we've gotta adjust our our stance. Curtis Barton [0:04:49]: And we've gotta make sure that we're ready to take on, you know, the bump that's in front of us, So that we don't blow our knees on. Curtis Barton [0:04:57]: You know. Curtis Barton [0:04:58]: And that's the best way to translate it back to skiing. Curtis Barton [0:05:01]: So, yeah, skiing is an interesting thing for me. Curtis Barton [0:05:03]: You know, I was I thought I was gonna be an olympic skier. Curtis Barton [0:05:06]: I just ski the university of Colorado Boulder, be a hundred guys and team, and I was probably ninety ninth. Curtis Barton [0:05:12]: And find out really quick that there's a lot of really good guys out there and So, you know, I I ended up transferring out of University universal colorado auto and up their University Arizona. Curtis Barton [0:05:23]: My dad thought that I need to be away from the snow for a while, and that my great shit my my Gpa should pick up. Curtis Barton [0:05:29]: And so you know, I mean, for every practical since learned, I had a pretty interesting college experience, and and and and I sucked every every piece of marrow out of that experience and enjoyed it. Curtis Barton [0:05:41]: Let's just put it that way. Callan Harrington [0:05:46]: I love it. Curtis Barton [0:05:46]: That's all I like to say about that. Callan Harrington [0:05:48]: That... Callan Harrington [0:05:48]: Yeah. Callan Harrington [0:05:49]: That's it it's a good mic truck moment because here, look, the reality is, the results have came through. Callan Harrington [0:05:55]: Right? Callan Harrington [0:05:55]: If you look at ALKEME, twenty one on insurance journal top one hundred. Callan Harrington [0:05:58]: Over fifteen hundred employees, ninety plus different offices, thirty five state across thirty five states, two billion in premiums written. Callan Harrington [0:06:08]: And then probably the one that I'm most impressed with is over a hundred and twenty two million in Eb. Callan Harrington [0:06:14]: So you guys have been very successful. Callan Harrington [0:06:18]: But what I found to be super interesting. Callan Harrington [0:06:21]: One is how it started. Callan Harrington [0:06:23]: Can you talk about that a little bit? Callan Harrington [0:06:25]: I mean, so you guys didn't have the traditional, like, like, you know, a very common thing is you've got an agency. Callan Harrington [0:06:32]: You start buying a couple of other agencies. Callan Harrington [0:06:34]: You grow to be pretty big. Callan Harrington [0:06:35]: And then you take on, you know, maybe a, a smaller private equity company, and then five years, you flip it to a bigger one. Callan Harrington [0:06:43]: You just get bigger and bigger bigger, but you guys formed pretty uniquely. Callan Harrington [0:06:46]: Can you talk about that? Curtis Barton [0:06:48]: Yeah. Curtis Barton [0:06:48]: So I mean, look, I... Curtis Barton [0:06:51]: My agency that my legacy agency, I like to call it my the my core agency, We were all part of a cluster. Curtis Barton [0:06:56]: And I'd had grown... Curtis Barton [0:06:59]: I I... Curtis Barton [0:06:59]: My dad I'd start that at zero. Curtis Barton [0:07:01]: My dad sold his business when I was in college and basically got out of the business who retired When I came out of college. Curtis Barton [0:07:06]: I was set to the attorney. Curtis Barton [0:07:07]: Thank god. Curtis Barton [0:07:09]: I missed that one. Curtis Barton [0:07:10]: My dad's like, you don't read very well. Curtis Barton [0:07:13]: Why do you even wanna do that? Curtis Barton [0:07:15]: And I'm like, I get you. Curtis Barton [0:07:16]: I hear I understand what you're saying. Curtis Barton [0:07:18]: But you know, Ended up in the insurance space, worked with my dad for, you know, fifteen years we built a business. Curtis Barton [0:07:24]: Was about, you know, four and half million dollars in line revenue it a nice business. Curtis Barton [0:07:28]: Very family driven business. Curtis Barton [0:07:30]: You know, we tried to make our stretches and hire producers and grow where we could, limited resource. Curtis Barton [0:07:36]: You I looked at my avalon one day and I said, you you're just traveling the world, and you're having a great time with mom, and I I totally love that for you, but I have to protect myself, and I'm growing my own my ability. Curtis Barton [0:07:47]: And, at some point, I need to make a move. Curtis Barton [0:07:48]: And I said you didn't you need to give me more equity or you need to sell me the business he said I'll sell it to you. Curtis Barton [0:07:54]: And then I was able to kinda free up from the old traditional mindset that that was in place with the organization, take the business in different directions, and on a personal lines division, a benefits division, a financial Services division, grew it to about eleven million in top line revenue. Curtis Barton [0:08:08]: And then I just kinda woke up one day and send, like, man, I don't wanna be seventy two years old and sitting on top of an agency and having everything on my shoulders, you know, where I have to, you know, be the top sales guy. Curtis Barton [0:08:21]: I have to be the Hr. Curtis Barton [0:08:21]: I have to be the It. Curtis Barton [0:08:22]: I have to be the accounting, you know, the accounting person, and I have to be... Curtis Barton [0:08:27]: Kinda takes trash out which I've done. Curtis Barton [0:08:29]: I've done everything in insurance literally from take out that trash, sleep before too. Curtis Barton [0:08:33]: Well, Know. Callan Harrington [0:08:35]: Let me pause right there because I wanna ask a couple things. Callan Harrington [0:08:37]: You're at eleven million. Callan Harrington [0:08:38]: I'm gonna play Devil's advocate real quick. Curtis Barton [0:08:41]: Yeah. Callan Harrington [0:08:41]: Could you not have hired those different positions still hit... Callan Harrington [0:08:46]: Let's just say fifteen twenty percent Eb and then done whatever you wanted. Curtis Barton [0:08:52]: Well, it's... Curtis Barton [0:08:53]: Look, it's a... Curtis Barton [0:08:53]: That's a lifestyle business. Curtis Barton [0:08:54]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:08:55]: And at some point, you got a challenge, Like, I I'm competitive guy. Curtis Barton [0:08:59]: And a lifestyle business wasn't good enough for me. Curtis Barton [0:09:02]: I wanted to create generational wealth, and I wanted to do it for others. Curtis Barton [0:09:05]: I wanna to do it for my people. Curtis Barton [0:09:06]: And I wanted to do it for others, and I wanted to pay a new way in insurance that I I saw a real echo chamber in the insurance industry that everybody was doing it the same way. Curtis Barton [0:09:18]: They were all switching and, you know, people will leave Brown and Brown, and they take the playbook and they'd start Brown and brown number two. Curtis Barton [0:09:24]: And, yeah, Brand Brown's a great agency. Curtis Barton [0:09:26]: There's nothing wrong with it. Curtis Barton [0:09:27]: It's like, everybody's doing everything the same way. Curtis Barton [0:09:30]: The same playbook looks being being rewritten and just saw a real opportunity to say, you know what? Curtis Barton [0:09:35]: Let's buck the system. Curtis Barton [0:09:36]: Let's take in a different direction. Curtis Barton [0:09:38]: Let's embrace technology. Curtis Barton [0:09:40]: Let's put technology the forefront of our decision making. Curtis Barton [0:09:43]: Let's be a production based organization that thinks about the customer first. Curtis Barton [0:09:47]: You know, And I if people blip service, you know, customer journey, but then they gut resource that goes along with the customer service section. Curtis Barton [0:09:55]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:09:56]: And then it's about how do we empower our people to be more proactive in their business, and have more ownership, in kind of their day to day structure and how do we make their job fulfilled, and that leads to high retention and that leads to better results and and, you know, and then, obviously, profitability will come behind that. Curtis Barton [0:10:13]: A lot of people tend ten and in our space to financially engineer their results. Curtis Barton [0:10:17]: And so they start with the financial result they want and they back in to you how to get there. Curtis Barton [0:10:21]: We talk about how do we get the customer journey to be the best? Curtis Barton [0:10:26]: How do we keep retention high, and then how do we treat our people? Curtis Barton [0:10:30]: Which is a huge part of the of of the picture is how are you making their jobs more fulfilling so that they have a better experience at work so that they love giving better customer service, and they feel more ownership over their work product. Curtis Barton [0:10:43]: And, you know, when I was talking, when I started to look at eleven million. Curtis Barton [0:10:47]: Like you said, it was a great lifestyle business, and and I didn't need to do a thing. Curtis Barton [0:10:51]: I could've kept doing that forever, and I kinda incrementally grown that to twenty million, but Again, lifestyle business, you know, a lot of people in that lifestyle it's... Curtis Barton [0:11:00]: You've gotta constantly be thinking about how am I reinvest into my people, how am I reinvest into my customers and how am I reinvest into my systems. Curtis Barton [0:11:09]: And if you're not thinking about that, you're gonna get left in the dust. Curtis Barton [0:11:13]: And I could see that early on. Curtis Barton [0:11:15]: And I saw it the traditional way that insurance was done, and I call it the Mahogany wave or the Silver Tsunami, you know, where it's like, it you gotta have mahogany desk, and you gotta have green carpet, you gotta hang at that animal on the wall. Curtis Barton [0:11:28]: You know? Curtis Barton [0:11:29]: And I was like, no. Curtis Barton [0:11:30]: I don't wanna have... Curtis Barton [0:11:31]: I don't wanna run a business like that. Curtis Barton [0:11:32]: I don't wanna run that same playbook at it. Curtis Barton [0:11:35]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:11:35]: Or I don't wanna go hire a bunch of people that came out of Abc b publicly traded company and put them in my organization. Curtis Barton [0:11:42]: And have them run their playbook with my people. Curtis Barton [0:11:44]: You know, I wanted to totally just blow that up and start fresh and start with a fresh look and take on how I thought the business could be built going forward. Callan Harrington [0:11:56]: Well, so... Callan Harrington [0:11:56]: Okay. Callan Harrington [0:11:56]: So you... Callan Harrington [0:11:57]: In in in ALKEME, that don't make sense, and and that's definitely, like, you were driven by, you wanna do something more. Callan Harrington [0:12:04]: A lifestyle business was fine, but you wanted to build something that hadn't been built before, and you had that drive to do that. Callan Harrington [0:12:12]: So you too... Callan Harrington [0:12:13]: So as I understand this, there were six insurance agencies in one wealth management firm. Callan Harrington [0:12:19]: And you guys said, okay. Callan Harrington [0:12:22]: Why don't we just... Callan Harrington [0:12:24]: Instead of, joining instead of you, your agency being acquired, Why don't we just get it with the Pe company, put all these together and then go build our own. Callan Harrington [0:12:33]: What did that process look like? Callan Harrington [0:12:34]: How did you pull that off? Curtis Barton [0:12:36]: Well, we're all part of a cluster, all of us. Curtis Barton [0:12:39]: And so there's was actually two others. Curtis Barton [0:12:40]: So it was actually eight originally. Curtis Barton [0:12:42]: And what we did is we... Curtis Barton [0:12:44]: The cluster itself where they were going through some things and the ownership had changed than the the the main owner had passed it to his son, his son was doing some things internally that we didn't like, that we didn't appreciate. Curtis Barton [0:12:56]: And I kept saying, why are we paying all this money for this. Curtis Barton [0:13:00]: We're not getting anything really out of it? Curtis Barton [0:13:02]: So I went to the guys and I knew that were growers in the organization. Curtis Barton [0:13:06]: I said, look, we all grow. Curtis Barton [0:13:07]: We all run good business, why don't we take that and start own affiliate group, you know? Curtis Barton [0:13:12]: And that was all gonna be one point o. Curtis Barton [0:13:14]: We did that in two thousand eighteen. Curtis Barton [0:13:15]: But I said here's the condition. Curtis Barton [0:13:17]: I said we need to go on one system when you keep our data in one slots so that we can harness our data and we can creatively consciously make decisions that are fact based to grow our business the right way. Curtis Barton [0:13:28]: And so we started went that in mind in two thousand and eighteen, which is if you look at the way things have evolved. Curtis Barton [0:13:34]: We were way out of the curve, didn't know at time. Curtis Barton [0:13:37]: We just thought it was natural for us. Curtis Barton [0:13:38]: It was a natural mechanism for us to do it. Curtis Barton [0:13:40]: So we did that. Curtis Barton [0:13:41]: We moved eight out two of them. Curtis Barton [0:13:45]: And and as we got on that system, we realized really quickly that we add a we had a platform. Curtis Barton [0:13:50]: We have twenty five million dollars in top line revenue and we're like here. Curtis Barton [0:13:53]: We got a platform right here? Curtis Barton [0:13:54]: Like, it's sitting in front of us, how can we take that platform now, And as I'm having discussions with, like, you know, insert any consolidating anyone certain there, they were all calling me. Curtis Barton [0:14:05]: They weren't showing me anything that was gonna be transformational for my people or for me. Curtis Barton [0:14:10]: Except for a check. Curtis Barton [0:14:12]: And I wasn't motivated just by a check. Curtis Barton [0:14:14]: I was I was motivated by doing something transformational. Curtis Barton [0:14:17]: And so I just went to him and to guys. Curtis Barton [0:14:20]: We got one problem in this in this organization. Curtis Barton [0:14:22]: We all love each other and this is great, but you guys are all having conversations with people and I know it. Curtis Barton [0:14:26]: One. Curtis Barton [0:14:27]: And if you start to leave, I gotta start replacing you? Curtis Barton [0:14:30]: And I said, so why don't we just merge together and then try to go get our own capital and sell off to private equity. Curtis Barton [0:14:37]: And then we can run and what we call an owner operators model where we get we roll our sleeves up when we get dirty. Curtis Barton [0:14:42]: And that's really kind of the foundation, and they all they all agreed. Curtis Barton [0:14:46]: And since I have the largest agency in the bunch, I think they just saw that, hey, he's thought it through enough to to lead. Curtis Barton [0:14:52]: And so naturally, that's kinda how I became the CEO. Curtis Barton [0:14:56]: The founder, kind everyone to get into one... Curtis Barton [0:14:59]: Get into one room together and actually saw their business at the same time in emerge. Curtis Barton [0:15:03]: So we did a merger and an acquisition at the same time. Curtis Barton [0:15:05]: To start. Curtis Barton [0:15:06]: Now the two that fell out, fell out for interesting reasons and one of the people that fell out, his daughter actually came up with ALKEME. Curtis Barton [0:15:13]: Instead of ever looked at A as a name, and that's how ALKEME really kind of originated from. Curtis Barton [0:15:18]: We were supposed to be unify, which was too close to our clusters name. Curtis Barton [0:15:21]: And I looked at the definition of alchemy, and I was, like, it's like, saving the magical transformation of combining multiple metals together and formidable, more formidable metal. Curtis Barton [0:15:29]: It just made sense. Curtis Barton [0:15:30]: But I guess like the spelling. Curtis Barton [0:15:31]: Inside took the phonetic spelling, and I was like, there we go. Curtis Barton [0:15:34]: Boom. Curtis Barton [0:15:35]: And Have to pay anybody for it. Curtis Barton [0:15:36]: And there we go. Curtis Barton [0:15:37]: We're off the races. Curtis Barton [0:15:38]: Quick Url search and and demand search and we were off the races. Curtis Barton [0:15:43]: But you know, the idea was really with those guys was like, look, we've all got great lifestyle businesses, but that could be taken away from us. Curtis Barton [0:15:50]: Like, let's create something that's systemically different. Curtis Barton [0:15:53]: And that can provide a future for our families for future generations that can result in in generational wealth. Curtis Barton [0:16:00]: And along the way, bring a lot of people with us, you know, along that journey. Curtis Barton [0:16:05]: And so When they fell out, I happen to have a group that I knew that I was working some wealth management stuff through. Curtis Barton [0:16:11]: And I always loved financial services and wealth management thought it really mirrors our business a lot for a number of different reasons. Curtis Barton [0:16:18]: And so we convinced them to come in and kinda fill the whole the void of those two reading, and that's how we started. Curtis Barton [0:16:24]: So we started with seven, six six P C agencies in California, and one wealth management shop ran out of Scottsdale Arizona. Callan Harrington [0:16:33]: Super interesting. Callan Harrington [0:16:34]: Super interesting. Callan Harrington [0:16:35]: So I guess my My first question is, do you think... Callan Harrington [0:16:41]: Now, I know the obvious answer is if they're really good and they've got a consortium of that join ALKEME. Callan Harrington [0:16:46]: Get it get acquired by ALKEME. Callan Harrington [0:16:48]: But let's say that there's a group out there, that hears this and they're thinking we can possibly do this. Callan Harrington [0:16:56]: What are the what are the roadblocks that they're gonna run into. Callan Harrington [0:17:00]: My first one, which I thought was interesting was who who, like, well, I was curious like, what was the process you already had mentioned it Of, like, who's going to lead this? Callan Harrington [0:17:08]: And, like, how do you have this many leaders and and get anything done? Callan Harrington [0:17:14]: That'd be my first couple things, but I'm curious. Callan Harrington [0:17:16]: What like, what what do you see as those roadblocks? Curtis Barton [0:17:19]: I'm gonna get, I have, you know, twelve years of working with these people side by side, not living together in the same house, but partnering and in some capacity. Curtis Barton [0:17:29]: So I developed relationships them that were beyond just a traditional business relationship. Curtis Barton [0:17:33]: It was a friendship and and a ship for each other that was different. Curtis Barton [0:17:37]: I think, you know, the roadblocks is... Curtis Barton [0:17:40]: I mean, look, first of all today is like, the worst absolute worst time to try to start something like this just to let everyone know with the public's under pressure the way they are are and things happening. Curtis Barton [0:17:50]: Capital markets recycling debt being high. Curtis Barton [0:17:53]: I think what you don't know is kind of a a superpower. Curtis Barton [0:17:58]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:17:59]: Like, you you know you think you have this idea and you just go for it. Curtis Barton [0:18:02]: And you think it's gonna be simple, and it's not, you know, when you have to have that ability to push that back and just be like, you know what? Curtis Barton [0:18:09]: We can do this, and to have the belief in yourself that you can do it. Curtis Barton [0:18:13]: It's not easy. Curtis Barton [0:18:14]: And there's a lot of people that just aren't bank. Curtis Barton [0:18:17]: And what does that mean? Curtis Barton [0:18:18]: That means that private actually looks like you and say saying, you're not bank. Curtis Barton [0:18:21]: I don't I know you trust your process. Curtis Barton [0:18:22]: I don't trust you. Curtis Barton [0:18:24]: I don't trust the way you put the business together. Curtis Barton [0:18:26]: I don't like your mindset. Curtis Barton [0:18:27]: Whatever it is. Curtis Barton [0:18:28]: It's very difficult. Curtis Barton [0:18:29]: Raising capital in today's markets is a nightmare. Curtis Barton [0:18:32]: And if you don't have scale right now, I would not wanna be out there trying to raise capital on my own. Curtis Barton [0:18:38]: I'm candidly. Callan Harrington [0:18:40]: That that makes total sense, and I could definitely see the reasons not to do it. Callan Harrington [0:18:44]: And I could see the reasons to do it for sure. Callan Harrington [0:18:48]: Let me ask you this. Callan Harrington [0:18:49]: Could this not be done? Callan Harrington [0:18:50]: Yes. Callan Harrington [0:18:50]: Better if you got a capital partner because now you can go out and well, you could free up liquidity, but could they not merge on their own? Curtis Barton [0:18:58]: They could. Curtis Barton [0:18:58]: But that's a that's you know, you've got culture wars. Curtis Barton [0:19:01]: You've got things that exists internally. Curtis Barton [0:19:03]: And again, it goes back to what you said is, like, who's gonna lead? Curtis Barton [0:19:07]: Who's gonna fill what position. Curtis Barton [0:19:09]: And can you get everyone to to operate as a unit and a team. Curtis Barton [0:19:13]: And I knew that the group that we had could operate that way, and we saw it early on because we were already operating that way. Curtis Barton [0:19:19]: And so we were able to get, like, almost, like, a mere look into the business to say that, yeah, we can do this and we can do this effectively because we understand each other. Curtis Barton [0:19:28]: Yeah. Curtis Barton [0:19:30]: I mean, you gotta be careful. Curtis Barton [0:19:32]: I mean, cultural issues are real, and you've gotta make sure that you're culturally aligned if you're gonna try to merge some people together. Curtis Barton [0:19:37]: Going out and taking traditional debt, bank style debt, you know, lots of covenants, really hard. Curtis Barton [0:19:43]: People don't Look, insurance brokerage is, including myself at the time, the sophistication level that comes along with attaching debt to your business, can destroy your business if you're not careful. Curtis Barton [0:19:55]: And so, you know, you a situational awareness, you have kinda have to have. Curtis Barton [0:19:59]: As a leader to understand where your weaknesses are and then fill in with people that can actually support that weakness. Curtis Barton [0:20:05]: And so when you look at debt and stacking debt up, like, that we we run across a lot of deals where people went on a buying spree of smaller agencies and stack that up, and they actually got forced to sell their businesses. Curtis Barton [0:20:18]: And those are guys that we don't target because they don't really wanna sell their business. Curtis Barton [0:20:22]: They just got stuck in a interest rate hike situation that put the debt so much. Curtis Barton [0:20:30]: It was so hard on their business. Curtis Barton [0:20:32]: They had to make a decision to solve the business. Curtis Barton [0:20:35]: They had no other choice. Curtis Barton [0:20:36]: They couldn't afford to continue to move on. Curtis Barton [0:20:38]: And you saw that at the high levels too. Curtis Barton [0:20:40]: You saw some of the bigger platforms at the same the same, kind of impact on. Curtis Barton [0:20:45]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:20:46]: So I think, you know, my my suggestion to people that wanna grow their business and do it that way would be to do it slowly. Curtis Barton [0:20:53]: To make sure that you lay down, you know, standard operating procedures, you get out one system, you put her down on one place. Curtis Barton [0:20:59]: You make sure that everybody's operating lock step. Curtis Barton [0:21:01]: I call it the Southwest model. Curtis Barton [0:21:03]: You know Southwest air. Curtis Barton [0:21:04]: They were they ran the same plane, the same parts. Curtis Barton [0:21:06]: The same mechanics could fix anything in a plane. Curtis Barton [0:21:09]: That's how they kept their routes simple. Curtis Barton [0:21:11]: You know, that's how they grew their business. Curtis Barton [0:21:12]: And I think that, you know, you gotta think about your business in the same fashion. Curtis Barton [0:21:17]: And, you know, Would never discourage anybody for being entrepreneurial and going out there and and trying to attack. Curtis Barton [0:21:22]: And see what they can come up with. Curtis Barton [0:21:24]: Just know that it's not as easy as it sounds and that you can do it. Curtis Barton [0:21:28]: You just gotta be prepared. Curtis Barton [0:21:29]: And I think I heard Kirby smart of Georgia say it. Curtis Barton [0:21:32]: You know, any type of success you have to give and sacrifice certain things in your life for that success. Curtis Barton [0:21:38]: And you gotta be prepared for that. Curtis Barton [0:21:40]: And I don't think most people at our space and our business are prepared for the sacrifices that you have to make in order to take a business to level that we've grown our business too. Callan Harrington [0:21:49]: Well, and it's it's getting back to what you said earlier is is, you know, once you get in the lifestyle, it's hard to get out of it. Callan Harrington [0:21:58]: And for good reasons, there's nothing that no... Callan Harrington [0:22:01]: Nothing against a lifestyle business whatsoever. Callan Harrington [0:22:04]: But I hear you on on on what you're saying. Callan Harrington [0:22:07]: I've been in a number of insure techs where we've grown significantly, and it's different. Callan Harrington [0:22:14]: And is just... Callan Harrington [0:22:15]: It's definitely very different. Callan Harrington [0:22:16]: So I wanna talk a little bit. Callan Harrington [0:22:19]: I wanna switch gears here a little bit and talk about organic growth niche markets. Callan Harrington [0:22:23]: I've heard you talk a lot in previous interviews about, you know, one, how you agree your initial book to two and a half million when you were first getting into this with security guards and a number of different niche markets. Callan Harrington [0:22:37]: And then and I heard you talk about, like, how you guys are arming your producers with a process I technology to essentially, my words not yours, put that on steroids. Callan Harrington [0:22:52]: What does that look like? Curtis Barton [0:22:55]: When you're in sales and you're starting off and you're starting at zero. Curtis Barton [0:22:57]: It's it's a hard business to start it, and that's why the fallout rate, it's the dropout rate is so high, especially on the commercial side of the business is because it's really challenging to get a book moving. Curtis Barton [0:23:06]: And so I always tell people if you're gonna start the business, pick something, and maybe it's not a passionate thing, but pick a niche that you can be good at and then hyper niche, which means drive deeper and niche within a niche. Callan Harrington [0:23:20]: Yep. Curtis Barton [0:23:20]: And that drives diversification. Curtis Barton [0:23:21]: Well, it drives... Curtis Barton [0:23:22]: It drives what it does is it drives expertise. Curtis Barton [0:23:24]: And then you'd be a thought leader. Curtis Barton [0:23:26]: And so you put a lot of content out around that specific niche. Curtis Barton [0:23:30]: So that you're constantly in front of people talking to them about problems that their business is facing, and we took a step further in my agency where we front branded, every one of our producers had their own brand that they were ran that was specifically geared towards the niche they were in. Curtis Barton [0:23:45]: And I'll use security guards as an example. Curtis Barton [0:23:47]: At the time we we started by securityguard.com. Curtis Barton [0:23:49]: Super simple. Curtis Barton [0:23:50]: It was a direct tip. Curtis Barton [0:23:52]: This shows y'all how long ago it was, but you know, we were able to run that. Curtis Barton [0:23:55]: The whole website was geared towards security guards. Curtis Barton [0:23:57]: So you're not searching through a hundred different things to figure out who's the guy that handles security grants. Curtis Barton [0:24:02]: Your front and center, it's all about you. Curtis Barton [0:24:04]: It's all about your business. Curtis Barton [0:24:05]: It's all information geared towards your business and makes you an immediate expert. Curtis Barton [0:24:09]: And so you become you become the expert in the industry. Curtis Barton [0:24:13]: And then basically, as Google switched their kind of their calculations around on how they looked at direct it, you know, Urls, we moved to Ga pro insurance as long exist today as a sub. Curtis Barton [0:24:25]: But, you know, the bottom line is is to create the, I don't wanna say illusion, but create the illusion that that's all you do. Curtis Barton [0:24:33]: Yeah. Curtis Barton [0:24:33]: Know? Curtis Barton [0:24:34]: And it just makes it life a lot simpler. Curtis Barton [0:24:36]: And when you know your product and you know the industry that you're going after, it makes your yourself process that much stream more streamlined because you know where the holes are, You know where the problems are, you gotta to fix them quickly. Curtis Barton [0:24:48]: When you're sporadically just writing anything. Curtis Barton [0:24:51]: You can't be an expert of all things. Curtis Barton [0:24:53]: You know, Jack all trades, master of non type scenario. Curtis Barton [0:24:56]: It's like, really no. Curtis Barton [0:24:58]: And you... Curtis Barton [0:24:59]: And then you can start to predict and analyze, like, what are their issues why are they having issues where do you see it? Curtis Barton [0:25:05]: And the those discussions aren't then about a sale. Curtis Barton [0:25:08]: It's an educational process that leads to a sell later, and and that's the way we've always thought about it. Curtis Barton [0:25:14]: So we we really look at ALKEME when we look for bolt on acquisitions. Curtis Barton [0:25:18]: You really look for people that have a specialty. Curtis Barton [0:25:22]: What what is different about you as an agency owner and your agency in particular that's gonna make me interested in it. Curtis Barton [0:25:29]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:25:29]: And why do I think that that's gonna be interesting for ALKEME as a whole and for all the shareholders I work for? Curtis Barton [0:25:34]: And how do I create value through that? Curtis Barton [0:25:37]: And so what we always look at to say is, what what industries do we like? Curtis Barton [0:25:42]: What industries do we think we can mirror and and counter and and actually put into our puzzle? Curtis Barton [0:25:47]: And kinda of bring across the rest of our our network and and create internal cross sell, which then pumps organic growth. Curtis Barton [0:25:54]: And when you look at organic growth, and you people don't really try to... Curtis Barton [0:25:58]: I mean, I don't think a lot of people understand truly what organic growth means. Curtis Barton [0:26:02]: And How use? Callan Harrington [0:26:04]: I I'm very curious how you define it. Curtis Barton [0:26:06]: So organic growth is new new. Curtis Barton [0:26:07]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:26:08]: I mean, at the end of the day, when you look truly at organic growth. Curtis Barton [0:26:10]: And when you get into a bigger business, they'll just go T where we're T, and they'll take a calculation over the top. Curtis Barton [0:26:15]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:26:15]: But really, to me, it's new new. Curtis Barton [0:26:17]: And and that organic growth is is new dollars. Curtis Barton [0:26:20]: That's free money. Curtis Barton [0:26:21]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:26:21]: That... Curtis Barton [0:26:21]: There's no debt associated with free money. Curtis Barton [0:26:23]: That's just money coming in that you're creating and that money creates one dollar of organic growth creates seven in capacity to buy inorganic growth. Curtis Barton [0:26:32]: And so when you really look at that organic growth is a fuel that you put into the car. Curtis Barton [0:26:37]: That makes it go. Curtis Barton [0:26:39]: And if you can't have organic growth in today's market, your toast because you're just sliding backwards because the retention levels are falling off, we know that rates are softening. Curtis Barton [0:26:49]: We know that. Curtis Barton [0:26:50]: And when you look at it from a holistic view, you know, if you can't continue to have true organic growth firing in your system. Curtis Barton [0:26:59]: At some point, your system's gonna slow and start to fall off. Curtis Barton [0:27:03]: And buying tendencies, we're seeing buying patterns or switching, people are adopting more to new buying patterns than we saw. Curtis Barton [0:27:11]: When I was starting in the business. Curtis Barton [0:27:13]: You know, my dad was a kind of guy that had clients for forty years. Callan Harrington [0:27:17]: Yeah. Curtis Barton [0:27:17]: You know? Curtis Barton [0:27:17]: Yep. Curtis Barton [0:27:18]: That doesn't exist anymore. Curtis Barton [0:27:20]: You know? Curtis Barton [0:27:20]: I mean, there's few and far between. Curtis Barton [0:27:22]: And people will try to tell you they have clients for forty years, but, you know, they're... Curtis Barton [0:27:26]: They may be attached to the agency to the second, the agency has a shift. Curtis Barton [0:27:30]: That client usually moves out and they were attached to that person. Curtis Barton [0:27:33]: And those those are hard hard clients to find in today's market. Curtis Barton [0:27:37]: You know, average life policy probably seven years at this point in commercial, you know? Curtis Barton [0:27:43]: And that's that's a long hold. Curtis Barton [0:27:44]: So you've gotta think about that and you've gotta kinda add that into your into your planning when you're when you're looking at growing your business. Callan Harrington [0:27:52]: Do you... Callan Harrington [0:27:52]: Here's a random question. Callan Harrington [0:27:53]: On that seven year number, do you... Callan Harrington [0:27:56]: Is that Also, if you are the... Callan Harrington [0:28:00]: Like, the specialist in that niche or do you find that number's higher? Curtis Barton [0:28:05]: I think it'd a little higher, but again, a lot of those people are transactional buyers. Curtis Barton [0:28:09]: So if they're looking and if you if if they wanna buy a sub... Curtis Barton [0:28:13]: Inferior product, which a lot are sold, you can't stop them from doing that. Curtis Barton [0:28:19]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:28:19]: I mean, as much education that you can put forth on it, you can't stop them from buying an inferior product because they see a price point that they like. Curtis Barton [0:28:26]: And I call that, you know, you're Nordstrom effect. Curtis Barton [0:28:29]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:28:30]: You go to Nordstrom and you buy something because you can return it, You know, and that there's good customer service that's attached to it. Curtis Barton [0:28:36]: And so, you know, at the end of the day, I mean, it's not Rocket science what we do. Curtis Barton [0:28:41]: But it is you you do have to have the thought process that aligns with where the consumer thinking and tracking with that. Curtis Barton [0:28:50]: So I mean, I think, you know, what we're trying to do now is is really since we're a fully integrated migrated platform in which kind of the front side of your question. Curtis Barton [0:28:58]: We take everybody and move them on our system onto our name, and we get all our data in one spot. Curtis Barton [0:29:04]: So we're able to take that data, harness it and then we're able to cross sell onto of that data. Curtis Barton [0:29:07]: And then we're able to layer in our Ai tools over the top of it. Curtis Barton [0:29:10]: And those are on two sides. Curtis Barton [0:29:11]: It's kind of a Seesaw cell effect. Curtis Barton [0:29:13]: So we some of it goes towards operational leverage, which is making jobs easier. Curtis Barton [0:29:18]: And we call it taking the sludge off of the account managers and Aes desk, Csr desk, which is taking off the meaning, the the task they don't wanna deal. Curtis Barton [0:29:28]: Taking those off of their desk and getting them more involved and being proactive risk managers instead of just a reactive risk manager. Curtis Barton [0:29:35]: And, you know, like, what does that mean? Curtis Barton [0:29:37]: I mean, there's a lot of stuff like certificates and things that you can run automated. Curtis Barton [0:29:41]: Yes. Curtis Barton [0:29:41]: Living it's a super important thing. Curtis Barton [0:29:43]: I used to do a lot of contractors. Curtis Barton [0:29:44]: You know, I understand how important that is, but that's a totally a reactive table stakes thing that you're supposed to do for your client. Curtis Barton [0:29:52]: But I want my people. Curtis Barton [0:29:53]: I want my account managers being many salespeople people, having your conversation. Curtis Barton [0:29:57]: What's going on with your business. Curtis Barton [0:29:58]: How's your life? Curtis Barton [0:29:59]: How are things going? Curtis Barton [0:30:00]: Is there anything we can help you with? Curtis Barton [0:30:02]: Hey. Curtis Barton [0:30:03]: I see we don't have your comp. Curtis Barton [0:30:04]: Can I actually introduce you to Tom, who's a specialist and comp? Curtis Barton [0:30:07]: I think you might be a matter of fact, I looked up your experience mod It looks like your Emr is high. Curtis Barton [0:30:12]: You need some help. Curtis Barton [0:30:13]: Can we give you some help. Curtis Barton [0:30:14]: Can we have a conversation. Curtis Barton [0:30:16]: Turning them into more sales people that are engaged more in the front side of the process? Curtis Barton [0:30:20]: And I think they get more value out of their job when they're doing that as opposed to and I I'm gonna say paper pushing, but we know it's just electronic paper pushing now. Callan Harrington [0:30:29]: Yeah. Callan Harrington [0:30:29]: Yeah Yeah. Curtis Barton [0:30:30]: We know. Curtis Barton [0:30:30]: And and I think that that's a big differentiator. Curtis Barton [0:30:32]: And so since we are fully migrated and integrated, we don't have to work like, a lot of our competitors do, which is they're working on rein integrating the company back into one company. Curtis Barton [0:30:40]: As as opposed to a loose consolidation of a bunch of companies. Curtis Barton [0:30:44]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:30:45]: And so we can focus on putting all of our money and all of our investment in all of our effort into Ai, How do we drive Ai differently into our business not only from an analytics standpoint from a sales process standpoint from a service standpoint. Curtis Barton [0:30:58]: And then can we can we do things like automate workflow right from the inbox? Curtis Barton [0:31:03]: Yes. Curtis Barton [0:31:04]: We can. Curtis Barton [0:31:04]: We're doing it. Curtis Barton [0:31:05]: We can take it from subject line, and we can actually start to run a workflow in the middle of the night as an email comes in, and we could start to process that and do seventy five percent of the load and then leave it for the account manager to finish off the last mile. Curtis Barton [0:31:18]: And so those are things that can impact your business from an operational leverage standpoint, which creates blood profitability and shareholder value. Curtis Barton [0:31:25]: And so, again, anchoring people to why we're doing what we're doing, we're doing it to be more effective in how we run the business, how we drive business and how we grow the business. Callan Harrington [0:31:37]: You know, you you had touched on this... Callan Harrington [0:31:39]: You touched on it there about this integration process, and then you mentioned earlier in the conversation about agencies that you'd stay away from. Callan Harrington [0:31:48]: As I understand that, you guys have a pretty detailed scorecard that you used to evaluate new... Curtis Barton [0:31:56]: You know that? Curtis Barton [0:31:56]: Sky. Callan Harrington [0:32:00]: This is all from Pure research. Callan Harrington [0:32:02]: I'm happy to think after on on where I found all this. Callan Harrington [0:32:05]: But but I hear that you have at... Callan Harrington [0:32:07]: Well, okay. Callan Harrington [0:32:08]: One. Callan Harrington [0:32:08]: Is that true. Callan Harrington [0:32:09]: And two, can you share some of the things? Callan Harrington [0:32:12]: I'm sure you probably can't share the whole thing, But could you share some the things that are on that score. Curtis Barton [0:32:16]: It's not rocket science. Curtis Barton [0:32:17]: I mean, people are doing it and their head anyways, But we physically came up with a scorecard. Curtis Barton [0:32:20]: You're absolutely right. Curtis Barton [0:32:21]: And we blind score, so the people that are on an M and A call. Curtis Barton [0:32:24]: Are scoring certain things like, hey. Curtis Barton [0:32:26]: What's the age of the owner? Curtis Barton [0:32:28]: What's the geography of the owner? Curtis Barton [0:32:29]: How much gas is left to the take? Curtis Barton [0:32:31]: What is their differentiator? Curtis Barton [0:32:32]: What's their c growth look like over a three year period? Curtis Barton [0:32:35]: You know, who are their sales drivers? Curtis Barton [0:32:37]: Who are their carrier drivers? Curtis Barton [0:32:38]: You know, do we think we can move the business? Curtis Barton [0:32:41]: What system are they on? Curtis Barton [0:32:42]: How hard is it gonna be to move them off their system Tell me about your sales process? Curtis Barton [0:32:46]: Can we move you into our sales process? Curtis Barton [0:32:48]: What lines and specialties do you look at? Curtis Barton [0:32:51]: Where's your concentration of your business? Curtis Barton [0:32:53]: And that way we can steer around things like, when we started in two thousand and twenty, you know, personal lines was fine in the beginning, and then just totally imp in California. Curtis Barton [0:33:02]: You know? Curtis Barton [0:33:03]: And so we had to steer around personal lines for a while. Curtis Barton [0:33:06]: So we, you know, we'd squirt out, and we'd look at it. Curtis Barton [0:33:09]: And cool part is we blind score and we'd have three people on the call and and at the end of the day, we'd book at each other's scores, it it'd be interesting to see how we overlap. Curtis Barton [0:33:17]: And when we came together. Curtis Barton [0:33:19]: And there is a direct correlation between the ones where we came together. Curtis Barton [0:33:22]: It made a positive decision and the results of that agency post acquisition as opposed to ones where we had differing opinions. Curtis Barton [0:33:29]: So it's just another way for us to really validate not only what we're seeing in front of us. Curtis Barton [0:33:37]: And then also to have a look back period to when we actually buy them, how do they perform according to the score that we gave it up upfront. Curtis Barton [0:33:45]: That they under or over perform, you know? Curtis Barton [0:33:48]: And that's a key piece of this is is self evaluation and self awareness. Curtis Barton [0:33:52]: You know. Curtis Barton [0:33:53]: And again, it comes to repetition when you're starting out, you know, unfortunately, anybody starts out gonna have to get some clay on the table, which means that you're have to do some deals that you aren't the best deals in the world. Curtis Barton [0:34:03]: Yep. Curtis Barton [0:34:04]: And you get the clan on the table and you start to form, and I was told this by a guy, that who's been in the business for a long time. Curtis Barton [0:34:09]: He's like, you get your cal table, and then you mold clay, and then the business comes out of a play. Curtis Barton [0:34:14]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:34:14]: And that's the way it works. Curtis Barton [0:34:15]: And so kind of that's kind of what we look at is, like, yeah. Curtis Barton [0:34:19]: The beginning we did some deals that we kind of... Curtis Barton [0:34:21]: We needed to do to get off the block But now we can be very tactical in our approach. Curtis Barton [0:34:26]: And each deal we do, we get better at that approach. Curtis Barton [0:34:29]: We know what the warning signs are. Curtis Barton [0:34:31]: We can see it. Curtis Barton [0:34:32]: Since I've been on both sides of the table, I can relate to them very quickly, and I've been in production, and I can smell it. Curtis Barton [0:34:39]: You, I can smell the problems when I'm talking to them. Curtis Barton [0:34:43]: And I can tell them what their problems are as I'm talking to them. Curtis Barton [0:34:46]: I can literally then and be, like, is this one of your problems and maybe like, yeah, Absolutely. Curtis Barton [0:34:50]: That's a huge problem of ours. Curtis Barton [0:34:52]: You know? Curtis Barton [0:34:53]: And so that just comes through experience repetition and muscle memory. Callan Harrington [0:34:58]: Okay. Callan Harrington [0:34:58]: I wanna dive in on something that you said on that one specifically. Callan Harrington [0:35:01]: You mentioned you mentioned some of these things that make total sense. Callan Harrington [0:35:05]: Essentially, these are highly operationalize, but flexible, so they can flex into what you're doing. Callan Harrington [0:35:11]: Their systems aren't so rigid that like, they're imp... Callan Harrington [0:35:15]: Like, they can't they can't be molded into what you guys are doing. Callan Harrington [0:35:18]: Am I right in saying that you're essentially looking for people that have built this... Callan Harrington [0:35:23]: Well, okay. Callan Harrington [0:35:24]: I'm hearing two things because I hear one, it sounds like you want some of these people to to still be around when you acquire them. Callan Harrington [0:35:32]: But at the same time, they've also built this business in a way that can run without them. Callan Harrington [0:35:37]: Now, I know many times, people look to acquire those those agencies or brokers and they prefer that the the principal or owner or is not involved. Callan Harrington [0:35:50]: Sounds like you guys want them involved. Callan Harrington [0:35:52]: And... Callan Harrington [0:35:52]: But those are... Callan Harrington [0:35:52]: Am I hearing that correctly or am I am I mis something? Callan Harrington [0:35:55]: No. Curtis Barton [0:35:56]: Yeah. Curtis Barton [0:35:56]: That... Curtis Barton [0:35:56]: We wanna lie in? Curtis Barton [0:35:57]: So, yeah, When we're looking at a potential partner, we don't do... Curtis Barton [0:36:01]: There's certain there's certain models out there that are actually really unique where they dis the owner from the book of business. Curtis Barton [0:36:06]: The owner goes off and retire they take that book and they take it, they give it to va, and they have the Va handled a the book and business, and they play with the commission in the middle. Curtis Barton [0:36:15]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:36:16]: So they have, they can churn off a lot of the business and still be profitable. Curtis Barton [0:36:19]: Our theory is always like, we wanna be at growth engine. Curtis Barton [0:36:22]: So we want people that are looking for how to grow their business to the next level, but can't get there themselves. Curtis Barton [0:36:28]: They need the scale, and they need the operational lift off of them. Curtis Barton [0:36:31]: And so we have our shared services office, which we basically could pull off the It, the Hr, the payroll, the accounting, all the stuff in banking treasury. Curtis Barton [0:36:40]: All the things that get in the way of you running a business and and doing what your core mission was when you started because when you start a business, you start a business and with what. Curtis Barton [0:36:49]: Usually, a strong producer that leaves an agency because something triggered him. Curtis Barton [0:36:54]: Or her, and it could be a reduction in commission. Curtis Barton [0:36:58]: It could be a purchase. Curtis Barton [0:36:59]: It could be whatever. Curtis Barton [0:37:00]: And they start a business in the beginning, it's all great. Curtis Barton [0:37:02]: It's all production. Curtis Barton [0:37:03]: It's all new. Curtis Barton [0:37:04]: They're growing. Curtis Barton [0:37:04]: They're growing. Curtis Barton [0:37:05]: They're. Curtis Barton [0:37:05]: And all of a sudden, they run into a lawsuit. Curtis Barton [0:37:08]: Now they gotta get legal involved. Curtis Barton [0:37:09]: They got Hr? Curtis Barton [0:37:10]: They gotta deal with. Curtis Barton [0:37:11]: Now they gotta stand up a system. Curtis Barton [0:37:12]: They gotta get it an Ams system. Curtis Barton [0:37:14]: They gotta put proof processes and procedures down. Curtis Barton [0:37:16]: They've gotta think about now can I hire producers and how do I get an producer to come to a smaller agency? Curtis Barton [0:37:22]: That's a tricky thing. Curtis Barton [0:37:23]: So skill, will beat growth anytime. Curtis Barton [0:37:28]: And as you... Curtis Barton [0:37:29]: And and and when I say growth, I mean, growth in a smaller agency, people like, one we're around fifteen percent a year, and I'm like, your books two million dollars. Curtis Barton [0:37:35]: Like, you'll never catch scale like we have. Curtis Barton [0:37:38]: You'll never be able to catch that scale and that growth that we can present. Curtis Barton [0:37:41]: Because now all of our eighty, you know, eighty three acquisitions we've done are now selling on behalf of you too. Curtis Barton [0:37:47]: And that's a big difference. Curtis Barton [0:37:49]: That's a force multiplier. Curtis Barton [0:37:50]: And then when you add Ai to the top of it, Ai becomes a forced multiplier in your business not only from an operational leverage perspective, but also from a growth perspective. Curtis Barton [0:37:58]: And so I think, like, our... Curtis Barton [0:38:00]: You got, two choices with Ai you either lean back and you get scared of it or you lean in. Curtis Barton [0:38:05]: And we've completely leaned in on it and said we're just gonna absorb it, and we're gonna take it. Curtis Barton [0:38:10]: We're gonna utilize the best we can in our business to help our business be better at what we do and to serve more people. Curtis Barton [0:38:15]: And so I think, you know, Again, going back to it, it's just like, it it all depends on what that individual that owns that agency trying to accomplish. Curtis Barton [0:38:25]: Most of the ones that buy, they wanna take a two million dollar shop and make it a five million dollar shop, but they can't get their on their own. Curtis Barton [0:38:32]: They just can't. Curtis Barton [0:38:33]: And so they come and they join in with us, and then they're able to take some chips down off the table, sec ties their future, and then grow on the upside to acc a value in the stock. Curtis Barton [0:38:41]: And since we're the size company we are at a hundred and twenty million Eb, plus, we're we're at a really good size. Curtis Barton [0:38:48]: We're a good size where you can still do triples on your business over two year run, three year run. Curtis Barton [0:38:53]: You know, you get to eight hundred nine hundred million billion dollars in revenue. Curtis Barton [0:38:57]: Not so easy to triple that. Curtis Barton [0:38:59]: And that's what what I call the d point of the industry, and that's where a lot of the early on startup up roll ups or have gotten to. Curtis Barton [0:39:08]: Consolidation plays have gotten to where they're now and a really tough decision. Curtis Barton [0:39:13]: It's like, how do I take the next step forward? Curtis Barton [0:39:15]: Because private equity can't get the return out of the business that they want, you know, in that period of time. Callan Harrington [0:39:22]: No. Callan Harrington [0:39:22]: I definitely think that's an interesting thing to consider once they start get, like, especially when you're looking at ones of that size. Callan Harrington [0:39:28]: You know, one the things I'm curious about is You know, you took this from zero to where at today. Callan Harrington [0:39:34]: As you... Callan Harrington [0:39:35]: And one of the things I found interesting in in all of the research and and in our conversation is, you've got a pretty good feel all the way into the absolute weeds into the into the complete details. Callan Harrington [0:39:47]: What have you had to stop doing along this journey to scale with you personally to scale with the size that the business has gotten? Curtis Barton [0:39:57]: You've gotta make mature as a leader in maturity can come in a lot of levels, you know, when you're running your own business and you're paying for it out of your own pocket, and it's just you. Curtis Barton [0:40:07]: You can lead with a lot more I would say un behavior. Curtis Barton [0:40:14]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:40:15]: And when you're... Curtis Barton [0:40:16]: When you're working on behalf of a bunch of shareholders and investors, you've gotta lead with intelligence and you've gotta lead with information, and you've gotta attack problems face on. Curtis Barton [0:40:26]: You can't let them faster. Curtis Barton [0:40:27]: Smaller businesses you can tend to kinda weed them out over time or whatever and deal with them and people do. Curtis Barton [0:40:33]: You know, But those businesses again, like, even my business was built to sustain a lifestyle, which means that I wanted people in place and I could go have freedom to do other things. Curtis Barton [0:40:42]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:40:42]: So I could go watch my son play Water or watch my daughter play Volleyball. Curtis Barton [0:40:46]: And that's an important part that we still have in our business today, but you also want the infrastructure behind you in an organization like ours that when you come in, you still feel like you can grow your business for with the tools that we provide, and you can still have some of that flexibility to have the lifestyle that you that you want. Curtis Barton [0:41:03]: When you talk about me personally. Curtis Barton [0:41:05]: I mean, I just love the game. Curtis Barton [0:41:06]: I'm a student of the game. Curtis Barton [0:41:08]: You know, I I didn't even have a business degree out a poly side degree. Curtis Barton [0:41:11]: When you look at it, I mean, I've been through, like, a master class Mba in the last five years from debt finance all the way through? Curtis Barton [0:41:19]: You know, how private equity thinks looks, turns, modeling, how do you model for this, how do you design around that? Curtis Barton [0:41:26]: You know, and that's... Curtis Barton [0:41:28]: You've gotta be... Curtis Barton [0:41:29]: I mean, I tell people all the time, read books, listen to books, listen to people, you know, take in every conversation and really listen to what people are telling you. Curtis Barton [0:41:40]: And try to learn from it. Curtis Barton [0:41:42]: It takes something from everybody that you talk to and leave behind what you don't want. Curtis Barton [0:41:48]: Those are huge lessons to learn like, and I saw my kids on all the time. Curtis Barton [0:41:51]: And then just come in everyday prepared to do which you're supposed to do. Curtis Barton [0:41:55]: You know, like, it it's consistency. Curtis Barton [0:41:58]: And anything... Curtis Barton [0:41:59]: Anybody that you've ever seen be super successful. Curtis Barton [0:42:01]: It's all about consistency. Curtis Barton [0:42:03]: It's all about coming to work or showing up to the baseball field or showing up the soccer patch, and having the ability to show up prepared the scene to what your coach is telling you and be prepared to take action, you know? Curtis Barton [0:42:16]: And after a while, it just becomes muscle memory. Curtis Barton [0:42:19]: But, yeah. Curtis Barton [0:42:20]: You're right. Curtis Barton [0:42:20]: I I understand every piece of the business because I've worked in every piece of the business. Curtis Barton [0:42:23]: And I've worked literally from reception and trash taking out to having nearly a three million dollar revenue book. Curtis Barton [0:42:32]: To have an eleven million dollar agency as a whole to taking it into our for agency to growing it at where it's out today and doing acquisitions and M and A. Curtis Barton [0:42:42]: And, you know, again, it's because I'm a student of the game. Curtis Barton [0:42:45]: I'm constantly listening to books. Curtis Barton [0:42:46]: I'm constantly trying to improve myself. Curtis Barton [0:42:48]: I'm constantly talking to the other CEOs in our space. Curtis Barton [0:42:51]: Where are your Pv and j your processes, you know, bureaucracy and jams. Curtis Barton [0:42:55]: What is stopping your business from being successful? Curtis Barton [0:42:58]: How can I take away some of the rev? Curtis Barton [0:43:00]: Where did you run into a wall? Curtis Barton [0:43:02]: You know, learning lessons from people that have made mistakes and then adopting away from? Curtis Barton [0:43:06]: And taking the business away from that and taking it towards greener passengers. Curtis Barton [0:43:10]: And it's never perfect, and it's it's really... Curtis Barton [0:43:14]: You're buying imperfect businesses and you're trying to basically optimize them into your model. Curtis Barton [0:43:20]: And and and notoriously, a business, by its very nature doesn't have a lot of reinvestment into systems, processes, procedures, accountability, sales culture, these types of things. Curtis Barton [0:43:33]: And so it starts the top. Curtis Barton [0:43:35]: You gotta give him to believe in you. Curtis Barton [0:43:36]: You gotta them give him believe in the message. Curtis Barton [0:43:38]: You gotta tell them to why you're doing what you're doing. Callan Harrington [0:43:40]: You know, I... Callan Harrington [0:43:40]: I'll double down on. Callan Harrington [0:43:41]: You mentioned talked with everybody, Read the books, do all those things, and I'll even add. Callan Harrington [0:43:45]: Hire people. Callan Harrington [0:43:46]: Hire hire experts, higher... Callan Harrington [0:43:48]: Hire people that have done that before pay them to give you that advice and be just just crazy how fast you can fast track whatever you're doing as a result of that. Curtis Barton [0:43:59]: I always say hire the people that want to take your job. Callan Harrington [0:44:02]: Yeah. Curtis Barton [0:44:03]: And I don't say that because you want someone to take your job. Curtis Barton [0:44:05]: But you... Curtis Barton [0:44:05]: You have two choices. Curtis Barton [0:44:06]: You either hire down and that becomes angle around your neck or you hire up and you take the credit for the win that comes under your wings. Curtis Barton [0:44:13]: And so my theory has always been, like, higher up. Curtis Barton [0:44:16]: Know, get people that are around you and surround yourself with good people, and I tell my kids like, look, I got a nineteen at twenty one. Curtis Barton [0:44:23]: Year Tell them since they were thirteen. Curtis Barton [0:44:24]: You show me your five friends and I'll tell you who you are. Curtis Barton [0:44:27]: You show me five of year business your five year people in your C suite, and I'll tell you what type of business you run. Callan Harrington [0:44:33]: Yeah. Callan Harrington [0:44:33]: Now a hundred percent. Callan Harrington [0:44:35]: Curtis last question I have for you is if we were to sit down and have an interview just like this in ten years time. Callan Harrington [0:44:42]: And everything went to plan. Callan Harrington [0:44:45]: Where would you be? Callan Harrington [0:44:47]: What you be doing? Curtis Barton [0:44:49]: I saved ten years time. Curtis Barton [0:44:50]: I think we'd be a publicly traded company. Curtis Barton [0:44:51]: And That'd be the CEO that the company. Curtis Barton [0:44:53]: I mean, that's really what we're building it to be. Curtis Barton [0:44:56]: I mean, we're building it to be a forever company. Curtis Barton [0:44:57]: We're not building it to sell off to you know, any of the publicly traded or strategic opportunities are out there. Curtis Barton [0:45:03]: We get those opportunities every day. Curtis Barton [0:45:05]: They come our way. Curtis Barton [0:45:06]: Just like I did when I was an independent agent. Curtis Barton [0:45:08]: We wanna do it differently. Curtis Barton [0:45:09]: We wanna rem mold the way that people think about insurance and we're doing it. Curtis Barton [0:45:14]: We're getting kids to come into the business. Curtis Barton [0:45:16]: We're working in the schools, the business schools, and we're teaching people that there's so many different layers to insurance than just what they interpret insurance to be. Curtis Barton [0:45:25]: And that usually is kind of like a used car salesman man. Curtis Barton [0:45:28]: Right? Curtis Barton [0:45:28]: They don't understand the art in the in the beauty of reoccurring revenue and zero Capex and what that actually means to a business. Curtis Barton [0:45:36]: Now that model is shifting as Ai comes into the business, buying patterns will shift. Curtis Barton [0:45:41]: And so I think you'll see agencies and I think you'll see even our agency where some of our... Curtis Barton [0:45:48]: What we call the high, which is our our business intelligence unit that actually services business and grows business will be one of the top producers if not the top producers in the entire agency. Curtis Barton [0:45:58]: And it won't be... Curtis Barton [0:46:00]: It won't be people to be a consortium of people over Ai that drives it and drives growth. Curtis Barton [0:46:06]: That's the reality of where we're at. Curtis Barton [0:46:09]: I think in the middle, it's gonna be sticky with people. Curtis Barton [0:46:11]: So that's why I say, if you're gonna wanna climb to security have a flight to quality, get up in the middle market sector and stick in there because that's where the human connection is still gonna lie. Curtis Barton [0:46:22]: I anything that's, you know, on the smaller side that I think you don't have a good handle on and what I mean don't have a good handle on that you got a service model where you're not touching that constantly because you start to lose money. Curtis Barton [0:46:33]: You've gotta figure that out. Curtis Barton [0:46:34]: If you can figure that out, then you can run a business crazy. Curtis Barton [0:46:37]: I think you'll see people that'll I'll start businesses in a in a basement, well they'll and there's got that... Curtis Barton [0:46:41]: I already done it. Curtis Barton [0:46:42]: We're a billion dollar value company. Curtis Barton [0:46:43]: He has their own employees. Curtis Barton [0:46:44]: You know? Curtis Barton [0:46:45]: And so I think that you're gonna see some of that come out. Curtis Barton [0:46:49]: I think you're gonna see the Mg Mg... Curtis Barton [0:46:50]: Units gets get spun up like that. Curtis Barton [0:46:53]: I think those are the ones that are the most ripe for for disruption right now. Curtis Barton [0:46:57]: The traditional retail brokerage model. Curtis Barton [0:46:59]: I think that you're gonna see a Seesaw effect with Ai right now where you're gonna see some margin erosion. Curtis Barton [0:47:05]: But you're also gonna see operational leverage kick, and that's gonna offset the margin erosion by a long shot. Curtis Barton [0:47:11]: In the near term. Curtis Barton [0:47:12]: Where it goes, I mean, honestly, come on. Curtis Barton [0:47:15]: None of us know where this is going with Ai. Curtis Barton [0:47:18]: Not even a shot and hell can I take wound shot to tell you what what's gonna happen in the next five years? Curtis Barton [0:47:23]: I've seen things developed where we've literally gone from saying, hey, I'll use monday.com, You know, like, a just a a communication tool. Curtis Barton [0:47:35]: And I've seen our team spin up our own communication tool in less than two hours. Curtis Barton [0:47:40]: And that's how quickly things are moving. Curtis Barton [0:47:42]: And if you're not a part of that, you're gonna get you're gonna get run over by people that are in charge of that. Curtis Barton [0:47:48]: You know, and that's where I see why we have an advantage over a lot of people, but that gap could narrow quickly if you don't stay on your game. Callan Harrington [0:47:57]: I I tend to I tend to agree, and things are moving fast. Callan Harrington [0:48:02]: They're about five million things that I wanna dive into on what you just said. Callan Harrington [0:48:06]: Well, I. Callan Harrington [0:48:07]: That's For the day I Curtis Barton [0:48:11]: can go all day long and I'd love to come back on and dive deeper into that, but, like, I do you think early on like, ensure tech became Insure tech was gonna be a disrupt, but actually became an augment mentor. Curtis Barton [0:48:21]: I think you're gonna see Ai look like a disrupt, but then turn into a more of an augmentation tool that gives you operational leverage, and that's really, you know, kind of the way I see it. Callan Harrington [0:48:34]: I I I think it's gonna be super interesting. Callan Harrington [0:48:36]: Curtis, I could do this covers. Callan Harrington [0:48:38]: I could probably go for another couple of hours. Callan Harrington [0:48:40]: I I thank you for coming on today. Callan Harrington [0:48:42]: It's been a ton of fun. Curtis Barton [0:48:43]: No. I appreciate it. Callan Harrington [0:48:45]: A hundred percent.