Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to the riotous Luke Molloy & Dylan Rees about their choice of Spyfall Part 2

Transcript

Talks to the riotous Luke Molloy & Dylan Rees about their choice of Spyfall Part 2 · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a glump pen knife for doing.
• 0:35
  Quicker, quicker, quicker. Quicker hello and welcome back
• 0:41
  to Hamster With a Pen Knife that no Goochie podcast.
• 0:45
  Sweet. I'm me a Joe Ford.
• 0:50
  Anthony, Luke, Malloy. We are joined by Dylan Reese
• 0:57
  from the 2 Hunts for TV podcast. And you know what?
• 1:01
  You sounded a bit like someone doing an impression of Rusty
• 1:03
  Davis. By the end of that, in charge
• 1:05
  just then. Everybody loves.
• 1:07
  Yeah. This podcast is marvelous.
• 1:11
  And you can have lazy beams coming out of his eyes.
• 1:16
  What are we doing today, gang? We are spy falling all over the
• 1:21
  place. Again, yes, but every.
• 1:24
  We get together. It happens.
• 1:28
  I can't wait. You're a big fan of the era,
• 1:32
  right? Big fan.
• 1:35
  See what your complaints are. You know all he's doing is what
• 1:38
  Moffett does all the fucking time.
• 1:39
  Sorry, I've already started and that is picking up in a
• 1:43
  completely different place and basically telling another story.
• 1:47
  Yeah, I like that. I like.
• 1:50
  The structure. What fails is that the story a
• 1:52
  lot worse than the story in part What?
• 1:55
  I like the fact that that he ribs.
• 2:00
  That muffet's timely wyminess by having this sequence on the
• 2:04
  plane where all the instructions of landing it are there.
• 2:07
  And then at the end of the story, someone goes to the
• 2:09
  doctor. Well, what about the plane?
• 2:11
  She goes, oh, bugger it, I'm going to do that.
• 2:14
  I'm going to go through it now. I don't think.
• 2:16
  I don't think that is a really big muffet, I think.
• 2:18
  I totally think it is. No, I think it's it's just
• 2:21
  copying and doing it, not with the same sort of punch.
• 2:26
  Potatoes, guitars. How how long was River Song
• 2:31
  falling down? How many universes where River
• 2:34
  Song jumps off the building at the end of Impossible Astronaut?
• 2:37
  Does she just splat on the concrete and die?
• 2:40
  And then in that one universe, the Doctor saves her.
• 2:44
  It's the one universe where he saves that trick, but not River
• 2:47
  Song. Yeah, take take him to save you
• 2:55
  though, Thinking about does it. Should we?
• 3:00
  Yeah. Should we?
• 3:01
  Should we just go straight into it?
• 3:03
  Yeah, because we can talk and we can talk.
• 3:06
  We might as well talk with this episode flying down the.
• 3:11
  Three of us all get together with a drink.
• 3:14
  This is the three of us together without one.
• 3:17
  I've got a drink now. Yeah, I poured a red wine for
• 3:20
  the second one because I know it's going to be a heated
• 3:22
  debate. OK, right.
• 3:25
  It's always cut us in then, yeah.
• 3:28
  OK, on 1321? You're on the side now that I
• 3:34
  thought I did a stunning impression.
• 3:35
  You there, Luke? Go on, do it again.
• 3:40
  Hello. Oh God, I like in the recap the
• 3:47
  the big recap we get is that all those spies dying at the
• 3:50
  beginning, which kind of actually seems a little bit
• 3:52
  irrelevant to the pot by this point.
• 3:53
  That you know, I'll tell you what, I'll watch The wedding or
• 3:55
  River song this afternoon. And that brought up the Tessa
• 3:59
  Lecter so many times. I knew how that episode was
• 4:02
  ending. Whereas this doesn't tell me at
• 4:04
  all how this episode is going to end.
• 4:06
  I felt like such a moron, not guessing the Tessa Lecter.
• 4:10
  What did you? Think and I was with you then.
• 4:14
  I didn't know what it was gonna be.
• 4:15
  I thought it might be the magic come from the 2 parter in the
• 4:19
  middle. It was, yeah.
• 4:21
  I was very shocked with this on the test selector even though as
• 4:24
  you say, it's all set up. I think I was say like wrong
• 4:29
  foot but I think it was cuz I thought it was gonna be
• 4:31
  cleverer. It's literally like Agatha
• 4:34
  Christie putting a picture of the murderer on the cover.
• 4:39
  Yeah. Yeah, no, I don't think it's
• 4:42
  resolved very well. So he's six.
• 4:44
  I think it's enjoyable, but I don't think it's resolved.
• 4:46
  All these marvelous scenes from Spy.
• 4:48
  For part one, we're seeing the greatest one of the greatest
• 4:51
  openers of Doctor Who I. Still can't believe you said
• 4:54
  that. Yeah, when I first watched that,
• 4:56
  I just thought, yeah, that's certainly an episode of Doctor
• 4:59
  Who. I do wonder if it is a bit of
• 5:03
  the Series 6 effect on me that the cliffhanger was so exciting.
• 5:08
  I thought the preceding 45 minutes was as exciting, but
• 5:11
  actually upon revisiting it, it kind of was.
• 5:15
  So with the cliffhanger being that the master's back, I
• 5:18
  remember at the time I was I was annoyed that it ruins the Missy
• 5:23
  arc. I couldn't really give a toss
• 5:25
  now because the master's not going to stay dead forever.
• 5:28
  They need to come back, but I am annoyed that it's just a psycho
• 5:30
  again. But we've already been through
• 5:32
  that part. One, but it was the fact that
• 5:34
  the rug pool got me and I'm a classic Doctor Who found where
• 5:37
  this happened every other week. So I should be programmed to see
• 5:41
  this stuff and I didn't see it. That's what excited me.
• 5:45
  I wanted to go back again and see how I was.
• 5:47
  Tricked Do you. Do you think, though, that we
• 5:49
  should have had a line about Missy?
• 5:53
  Or at least. No, Doctor Who is classic for
• 5:58
  never going. You know how did the Master
• 6:00
  escape? Is a running gag.
• 6:02
  Should we just do it because it's always been done?
• 6:05
  I mean, there's always room to do something different, but not
• 6:09
  here. I just think.
• 6:11
  That you're all that sort of fan that needs the connection.
• 6:14
  No, I don't need them. I just think Missy's redemption
• 6:16
  was the first sort of new thing that we've done with the master
• 6:18
  for ages. And then and now you've just got
• 6:21
  the master pop up and just do the same thing we've always done
• 6:24
  and. The fairway line would have been
• 6:26
  good. I mean, you mentioned George,
• 6:27
  your bank, for God's sake. One line wouldn't have been hard
• 6:30
  with it. That made me hard as a rock when
• 6:32
  he said about do you know, it's interesting that Rusty Davis
• 6:36
  said it for his new era. They're not reinventing the
• 6:39
  wheel too much. And I wonder because they don't
• 6:42
  think it's that broken, if that makes sense.
• 6:44
  Like, my biggest worry about the forthcoming era is that it is
• 6:48
  just more of the same. And you, you.
• 6:51
  We could be sat here in a year's time doing a commentary on the
• 6:54
  finale of series 14 and as they've revealed, somebody else
• 6:58
  is the master. Yasmin Finney is the master all
• 7:01
  along you. Know an oral contract for that
• 7:04
  commentary okay, but I might, I'll be there to give you oral
• 7:08
  anytime Joe. He's very adept, you know, I
• 7:18
  forgot what I was going to say. Now I've had half a glass of
• 7:20
  wine and making oral sex jokes. Honestly.
• 7:24
  Well, I mean. We were together, you know.
• 7:27
  You could definitely do more with this Southern world.
• 7:30
  I think that that's a bit of a sight missed opportunity.
• 7:34
  I think the whole place to fear is a bit just crap to watch.
• 7:37
  It would have been better with just, it would have just been
• 7:41
  better with the classic parachute, wouldn't it?
• 7:44
  No, the the the camera goes in through the destroyed cockpit,
• 7:49
  into the plane with them all. I mean, that's just a stunning
• 7:52
  shot. And then Jody's Dr. on the those
• 7:56
  little screens is Peak Jody whiskey.
• 7:58
  Could you could you imagine anything worse?
• 8:00
  You're dying on a crashing plane and then Jody's Dr. turns up on
• 8:04
  the screen. Ray of sunshine pops up to save
• 8:07
  your life. I'll be in heaven.
• 8:09
  I'll be out. If it was the if it was the
• 8:13
  Capaldi Dr. he'd just let you die.
• 8:15
  He'd go. Sorry, you're going to die.
• 8:16
  But you know, I've got to stop the master.
• 8:18
  But he'd be happy for his car and I'd still prefer that.
• 8:22
  Would you show how much I really don't like it if you'd rather
• 8:24
  die by the 12th Doctor than be saved?
• 8:28
  I just. Kick the problems, Luke.
• 8:30
  I prefer Capaldi to give me one of them pills he gives to to the
• 8:33
  dialect van. Just just let me kill myself,
• 8:37
  Doctor Who and the suicide pills.
• 8:39
  Piloting made easy. I'm sure piloted is very easy
• 8:44
  these days. You know, it's all done with
• 8:45
  computers. One of my oldest friends are
• 8:48
  pilot. You know, I'll tell you what
• 8:49
  he's earning. It's absolutely ridiculous what
• 8:52
  he gets by pushing a few buttons.
• 8:54
  Well, it's it's about the experience of knowing which
• 8:57
  buttons to push us now. As well in a crisis, mostly,
• 9:00
  yeah. Yeah, exactly.
• 9:03
  Now here is Ada Lovelace, and we're meeting Byron at the end
• 9:07
  of the season, aren't we? Yeah, yeah.
• 9:10
  So we're doing a bit of history this year.
• 9:12
  Exciting, It's. Fabulous.
• 9:16
  And I'll tell you what, there's a sequence later where you've
• 9:19
  got Ada and Nor and the Doctor all in the window as the world's
• 9:23
  burning around them, and it's fucking ace in the Bechdel test.
• 9:28
  It's a fabulous image and it's doing it for women in Doctor
• 9:32
  Who. I think it's a marvelous
• 9:33
  sequence. I also.
• 9:35
  But if it's in, if it's in a pretty shit story, is it that
• 9:38
  good? I think it isn't a shit story
• 9:41
  and I I love that the way this story is to, you know, it jumps
• 9:46
  around in time and space as well.
• 9:48
  Like it's that's what I want more of from my Doctor Who.
• 9:51
  I want multiple locations all over the universe or all over
• 9:54
  the world or all over time. It just makes it it makes it
• 9:58
  feel like a show that's set in time and space and not just set
• 10:03
  in 21st century London. And you and I do.
• 10:06
  We spent a lot of the flux season, so complementing the
• 10:10
  production value and saying it's all of it was it was a step up.
• 10:14
  But actually when I watched this earlier this is just as good.
• 10:16
  This is and and it is a shit tunnel.
• 10:19
  Locations and time periods and all of them are done evocatively
• 10:24
  that vividly. So I agree that I liked up to
• 10:27
  hop and all this place Once Upon a time.
• 10:29
  I think it's one of the best whisker stories.
• 10:34
  Oh yes, definitely one of the most watchable ones.
• 10:37
  I was not expecting you to say that.
• 10:39
  I've. Heard.
• 10:41
  Yeah, big fan of that, it's the best one.
• 10:44
  Well this is pretty good as well Them too though but I do dis not
• 10:50
  dislike but I prefer it when they start.
• 10:52
  Characters sort of get the story so even though it probably feels
• 10:56
  a bit old school now, but like Unicorn the Wasp being AG for
• 11:00
  Christie's Vincent and the Doctor being Vincent's.
• 11:02
  So I think. I prefer Ada Lovelace to be in
• 11:05
  this. If it was her story and the
• 11:08
  stories for her, you know what I mean?
• 11:11
  I just feel like you get you get a better grasp of the character.
• 11:14
  It makes them, it gives them the moment in the spotlight if
• 11:16
  you're going to bring them into Doctor Who.
• 11:18
  I think, I think you do get a good grasp of her character and
• 11:21
  it's quite refreshing that we're not doing one of those celebrity
• 11:24
  historicals that they love doing.
• 11:26
  It I get that we've done with you know we did four or five
• 11:30
  back in the day so you sort of you don't want to do the same
• 11:32
  thing I guess. Great about her.
• 11:33
  If she's smart, she's competent. She helps the doctor out in a
• 11:37
  crisis and her skills come into play.
• 11:40
  And we learn about. We learn about her as well.
• 11:42
  She picks up that bloody garden. She's the master.
• 11:45
  Yeah, yeah, she does. Using all the math skills,
• 11:51
  they're using all the math skills.
• 11:54
  There is a, you know, sorry to bring these up, but there's a
• 11:57
  big finish story, my 4th Doctor Adventures called The
• 12:01
  Enchantress of Numbers, where Tom Baker meets a little place,
• 12:04
  and that is that story that I'm describing where she's very
• 12:07
  integral to the plot and it's actually really good.
• 12:10
  It's kind of boring, that one. No, it's really good.
• 12:14
  We're never gonna agree on anything.
• 12:16
  It's got a bit of Ligopolis going on.
• 12:19
  It's like using Ada Lovelace's maths to create stuff.
• 12:22
  Ligopolis, Justin. Richly shitless.
• 12:25
  You are so. It just enriches.
• 12:28
  Possibly. Much better than competent then,
• 12:32
  is it? Which is better than Chip Bill.
• 12:35
  So I'm not having it. Can I draw your attention to a
• 12:42
  minor controversy that happened that could only happen with
• 12:44
  Doctor Who fans? Please, please, everybody
• 12:50
  thought. Not everybody.
• 12:51
  A small minority of people thought that Gareth Roberts was
• 12:55
  back working on the show because the location manager of this
• 12:58
  story is called Gareth Roberts. It's funny you say that because
• 13:01
  when the credits rolled by in part one, I did think Gareth
• 13:05
  Roberts, he's hit on hard times and now he's a location manager.
• 13:10
  He's not. He's a right wing columnist.
• 13:12
  But you know, fuck that. Joe, is it your?
• 13:14
  Is it time for your? Trivia facts or are we still
• 13:18
  waiting for that? Well, no, because the character
• 13:21
  has not appeared yet. OK.
• 13:23
  OK. Yeah, I'll, I'll drop it at the
• 13:24
  pertinent point. You don't have a character.
• 13:26
  My graph talks about Gareth Roberts.
• 13:28
  You know, he always says he's like a massive man baby, that he
• 13:32
  looks like a big baby with a beard.
• 13:36
  That's all I can ever see now. I love all of this, all of this
• 13:40
  popping back into history, scientific inventions.
• 13:43
  Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It's it's Peak Doctor Who.
• 13:47
  Not Peak Doctor Who. This is Peak Doctor Who.
• 13:49
  Doctor you you say everything's Peak Doctor Who, Doctor Who.
• 13:53
  It's not just constantly peak. No, I just mean that particular
• 13:57
  setup or moment. I'm not saying the whole episode
• 14:00
  is necessarily Peak Dr. though it is.
• 14:02
  But I mean like, you know when you it's.
• 14:05
  It's the Victoria, dear. Shut your fucking.
• 14:10
  I don't know. It's all history.
• 14:11
  It's all the same. I.
• 14:14
  Read that tweet and I housed you.
• 14:19
  But it's all the same. It's all Victoriano.
• 14:21
  It's all people in stupid fucking clothes being passed,
• 14:23
  isn't it? It's a little intersensual.
• 14:25
  Doctor Who, though, isn't it? We are.
• 14:28
  We're exploring the science of the time.
• 14:30
  A fabulous villain is about to walk in and steal the show.
• 14:34
  I mean, it's just marvelous. Yeah, I'm sounding like Rusty
• 14:37
  Davis now and I I think. Part one is quite.
• 14:41
  Watchable and it's got a decent pace and it can just watch it
• 14:45
  was I think once we get past this scene with the Doctor.
• 14:50
  The Master. This is buzz the shit out of me.
• 14:55
  Yeah, genuinely. And it should.
• 14:57
  It should be doing more because it's working across different
• 14:59
  time frames and but it's just no.
• 15:03
  There's no relationship there between the Master and the
• 15:05
  Doctor. I don't buy into Genuine's
• 15:07
  performance at the doctor and. By this point I've sort of
• 15:11
  forgotten about the whole spies dying and four storyline.
• 15:15
  The bit where it he makes her kneel down in front of him and
• 15:19
  say his name. I think that's it, Sizzles.
• 15:25
  I'm not sure if she's going to fuck him or hit him.
• 15:28
  Something is going to go down. If only she's done both, she
• 15:32
  could have been my. Favorite.
• 15:37
  It's the horniest the chipper's ears gets, really.
• 15:39
  Because it's not. It's not a horny ear at all, is
• 15:42
  this. No, it's.
• 15:42
  Not. But there's there is a freesome
• 15:44
  between the pair of them. It's not.
• 15:46
  I don't think it's a sexual thing, but there's definitely
• 15:49
  an. You can't.
• 15:49
  You can't, like repeat bow and get something bound for you like
• 15:54
  that without it being horny. A bit later on where he says
• 15:57
  what have you done and he throws her up against the tower.
• 16:02
  He wants her at that point. I think he's a bit too
• 16:07
  aggressive as the master, yeah. Why?
• 16:11
  Why? Why would you not want the
• 16:12
  master to be aggressive, constantly killing people?
• 16:16
  I know, I know that he just wipes out like a universe in the
• 16:20
  gophilis, but I mean, I mean physically quite aggressive.
• 16:24
  I think that's that's quite refreshing because I feel like
• 16:28
  the mass Missy was incredibly passive in that respect.
• 16:32
  Yeah, you say there's nothing you take on the master.
• 16:36
  But you know, I've I've known men that are unpredictably
• 16:40
  violent and it is really scary and I think the one is really
• 16:43
  scary when he suddenly leaps at people, I think it's really well
• 16:47
  done. It's it's a certain type of man,
• 16:49
  and it's the sort of man we don't normally see in Doctor
• 16:51
  Who. Yeah, I don't like you that
• 16:54
  much. And that's Okay you You're
• 17:00
  probably fine with the 6th Doctor doing.
• 17:02
  It's a Perry, though, weren't you?
• 17:04
  Oh, can I tell you a really great story about?
• 17:06
  Going off the 6th Doctor? More actually.
• 17:11
  Right now. All right.
• 17:15
  When Ma worked at the gate in Cardiff, yeah, that's where they
• 17:18
  filmed sequences. You know the sequences of the
• 17:22
  volcanology, they where they capture the master, where unit
• 17:26
  comes in and catches the master. And he knew they were filming,
• 17:29
  but he didn't know what they were filming.
• 17:31
  And then he found a whole tub full of little Dolly people and
• 17:36
  he was like straight on the phone to me.
• 17:38
  Don't you tell no one, but it's the fucking master.
• 17:42
  I remember on to watch he who he was discussing after part of the
• 17:46
  Doctor had been broadcasting all that, and he said there's a bit
• 17:49
  of blue tack on the wall somewhere that he's likely been
• 17:51
  meaning to scrape off forever, and it's seen in the scene.
• 17:54
  Every time we watch that scene, he goes.
• 17:56
  I told you I should have taken. In that blue tackle, the more
• 18:02
  fun thing was when he found the bit of scripts, yeah.
• 18:06
  Joy of joy is it was a sequence with Tegan and Ice in it, so he
• 18:09
  was straight on, the blower again said.
• 18:11
  Don't you tell us soul, but what if Tegan and Ace have been code
• 18:17
  names? Apparently in when they were
• 18:20
  doing the 50th they kept referring to sort of cover up.
• 18:24
  They thought they had a leak to cover up the John Hurt doctor.
• 18:26
  They called the character Omega during prep, like before anybody
• 18:29
  had got the script. So.
• 18:31
  Funniest thing was, I didn't believe him for a second.
• 18:33
  I went. That's a dummy script.
• 18:34
  They'd left that in the bin for you to find to spread
• 18:37
  misinformation. So when that trailer hit Legend
• 18:40
  of the Sea Devils, he was straight on the phone again.
• 18:42
  I told you so. That trailer didn't do much for
• 18:46
  me, but I cried for an hour. But the the trailer of well, not
• 18:51
  the trailer that shot of the Sea Devil coming back at the end of
• 18:54
  even the Daleks. I lost my mind.
• 18:56
  It's the fact it blinks. I've just never seen a Sea Devil
• 18:59
  blink before. Or it'd be better if it wouldn't
• 19:02
  to give you the island. That's all you want.
• 19:04
  Wow, Neil, I I I mean, I'm a pathetic vest of the human, but
• 19:10
  I genuinely cried for an hour after seeing Ace in the trailer.
• 19:15
  A whole hour. I'm not even shitting you, Daisy
• 19:17
  was like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
• 19:20
  My experience of watching Sophie Aldrin and Janet Fielding in The
• 19:24
  Power of the Doctor. I mean, that's one of my
• 19:26
  favorite experiences of watching Doctor Who episode.
• 19:29
  I was howling. I was just so excited, yeah.
• 19:33
  And then to see them face off with their attention, The
• 19:36
  Doctors again was just the dream.
• 19:38
  See in Sylvester McCoy and Sophie Aldrin was just too much
• 19:41
  for me. Again, I love bobbing.
• 19:43
  It was Janet Fielding staring at that phone like an old woman.
• 19:47
  What was that? Oh dear.
• 19:52
  I wonder if they're bringing them back.
• 19:53
  I wonder if they'll be in the unit spin off.
• 19:56
  Well, she's kept hold of that coat, Janet Fielding.
• 19:59
  She's there, every convention going now.
• 20:01
  She yeah, she's getting her money out of that.
• 20:03
  Just like Peter Davison's getting his money out of his
• 20:07
  costume from that that story as well.
• 20:09
  And Paul Mcgann's had a costume made-up as well, isn't he?
• 20:12
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 20:14
  Obviously you getting a stiffy over there, Luke?
• 20:16
  Oh yeah. I'm not.
• 20:18
  I'm not. I'm not vibing Paul Mcgann's
• 20:19
  haircut at the moment. No.
• 20:21
  God no. It looks terrible.
• 20:23
  I just like however he looks. I think he looks likes that the
• 20:28
  65 year old guy down the pub who's got an 18 year old
• 20:31
  girlfriend and there's a bit weird.
• 20:33
  That's the look. It is why he's given.
• 20:34
  That's my doctor. I don't know why, but it's
• 20:39
  something come on mundane about seeing WH Smiths and Shoe Zone
• 20:42
  in a Doctor Who episode. That line.
• 20:45
  Hello, friends. Or should I say playing thieves?
• 20:49
  No, hold on. I mean, we're.
• 20:52
  Basically doing the sound of drums here, aren't we?
• 20:54
  Yeah. You're on the.
• 20:54
  This, this demographic, this people.
• 20:57
  It's just pathetic. It's it's literally just
• 20:59
  something for them to do. I'm sorry Luke, I would agree
• 21:03
  with you because I don't think it really goes anywhere, but
• 21:05
  just for the sequence where they take out the guards with the
• 21:07
  shoes, the laser shoes. It justifies his existence just
• 21:12
  there and the nice little breather they have on the
• 21:14
  building site before they get surrounded.
• 21:17
  That way here with people I don't have character scenes,
• 21:19
  they do. No, but it's not like the side
• 21:21
  of the drums have done this and it was in a believable way.
• 21:25
  And they had jokes and they had characters we care about, and it
• 21:28
  had an and it had Martha as well, who we didn't care about.
• 21:31
  Oh, that's true. And it had an excuse of how they
• 21:35
  stayed undercover with the little Keys, but this is just
• 21:39
  too, too childish. I'm sorry.
• 21:41
  I know we're watching. I know you can throw that, but
• 21:45
  it's just the story is sort of too big and not funny for the
• 21:48
  prestigious to work. We've got a bit more history
• 21:52
  here. We've got Babbage here and more
• 21:54
  history. And he's played by the feller
• 21:56
  who played Rimmer's brother in Redwolf, Marvelous Good Spot,
• 22:00
  which in the more recent series. Yeah, he was in Trojan.
• 22:05
  Yeah, Yeah, I watched that the other day, actually.
• 22:04
  That was the episode of Time. You really?
• 22:07
  Need to rewatch Red Dwarf? What does he say?
• 22:09
  Rimmer, you're a total twat when he You've done commentaries on
• 22:16
  Red Dwarf right on the On the Hamster Extra haven't.
• 22:19
  You. Yeah.
• 22:20
  I chose all the early ones. It's too predictable.
• 22:23
  It shows all the early ones. We should get, we should get
• 22:25
  some later ones, indeed. Red Dwarf.
• 22:29
  I mean, I I I do some red dwarfs, I'd like to do some
• 22:33
  later ones, particularly. Yeah, I think some of those
• 22:36
  later ones are quite underrated. What's the 1st 5 minutes of that
• 22:41
  series seven episode where women jumps out the plane and is
• 22:45
  riding the crocodile? That that was my favorite.
• 22:49
  Like 5 minutes of a dwarf. I believe that's a James Bond
• 22:52
  pastaish, you know? Yeah, very.
• 22:55
  On point, I mean, if this was a bit more ridiculous, maybe I'd
• 22:58
  like it. I mean, it's a bit ridiculous
• 23:01
  thing. Yeah, but it's stupid.
• 23:04
  It doesn't realize it's being ridiculous.
• 23:06
  I remember Josh Schneer's posted the I think it was Josh
• 23:10
  Schneer's. I'll say somebody posted on
• 23:12
  Twitter the sequence, the old soft shoes that shuffle, saying
• 23:16
  that that was the worst scene and the most embarrassingly
• 23:19
  cringe moment in Doctor Who. And I'm like, well, you've
• 23:22
  clearly never seen invisible enemy horns.
• 23:24
  And I'm on, you know, the under the penis the burping bin for.
• 23:28
  Me then. Cringy scenes are always made
• 23:30
  better in time when someone does something funny with them and
• 23:34
  you know, on YouTube or in a meme fit Madely or doctor poop
• 23:37
  or something like. That I feel like Evil Dan has
• 23:40
  completely justified the era for a certain element of fandom.
• 23:44
  Yeah, I think. I think Evil Dan meant that no
• 23:47
  one really criticized John Bishop or Dan at all.
• 23:52
  Everyone was just happy he was in the show because you knew you
• 23:54
  were getting more Evil Dan memes at the end of the episode.
• 23:59
  Quite aside from the fact that he was just wonderful as well.
• 24:03
  Yes. No, I like, I like John Bishop.
• 24:07
  So I've lost the plot. Yeah, me too.
• 24:10
  We've been talking about Red Dwarf.
• 24:11
  Well, there isn't really. There isn't really a plot is
• 24:13
  that. But do you find yourself like do
• 24:16
  you find yourself sort of. I know you liked it either, but
• 24:19
  you sort of like it more or sort of over like it in a way because
• 24:23
  you're. Because you know that a lot of
• 24:27
  people don't like it. No, not at all.
• 24:29
  Because I will slack off Doctor Who with all of my heart if I
• 24:32
  don't like it, but I just, I would defend it more.
• 24:35
  But I genuinely think it's an era with a huge amount of merit
• 24:40
  and a really refreshing change from Stephen Moffett's version
• 24:44
  of the show, which I enjoyed at the time.
• 24:46
  But I have real trouble going back to this is instantly for me
• 24:50
  more rewatchable this this version of the show than the
• 24:53
  most. I would say I think the Battle
• 24:55
  of Rans, Grafcolos and Legend of the Sea Devils are two of the
• 24:58
  worst Doctor Who stories I see. I absolutely can tell the
• 25:02
  difference between good and bad in this era.
• 25:05
  Of course for me that I can. I I genuinely think Love of
• 25:09
  Monsters is brilliant and and. And there's just there's no
• 25:14
  doubt about that. And I just can't understand why
• 25:16
  people wouldn't. But I do understand why people
• 25:18
  would think The Wings of Accutane is shit, even though I
• 25:21
  love it. Do you know why love Love of
• 25:23
  Monsters fails for me? It's a brilliant script,
• 25:26
  brilliant performances. It's a terribly directed bit of
• 25:28
  television, like in terms of the visual style, the way it looks,
• 25:33
  the production design, the the shots and things like that.
• 25:37
  It fails as a directed piece of television.
• 25:39
  But I love the. Script.
• 25:41
  I quite like it because it's different again, but obviously
• 25:44
  they didn't like it because the guy never came back to direct
• 25:47
  again. But I really is, you know, Luke
• 25:50
  Malloy thinks in reverse of this.
• 25:51
  He thinks he's very well directed, but it's a terrible
• 25:54
  script. I don't think this is very well
• 25:57
  directed. You're mad.
• 25:59
  You don't think this episode is well directed?
• 26:01
  What? Not particularly.
• 26:03
  What's about? It Well, there's nothing about
• 26:05
  it that makes me think that's an amazing piece of direction, and
• 26:08
  the whole whisk here is more of a problem with Series 11, but
• 26:12
  the whole whisk here generally has just far too many close-ups,
• 26:15
  so we can't really tell what's going on outside of them.
• 26:18
  That I get frustrated. But I think 5 does.
• 26:21
  I think there are a few production problems in that one.
• 26:23
  There's a lot of close-ups in that story.
• 26:25
  I think of The Whiskerer as huge, wide shots and sprawling
• 26:29
  vistas and things like that. I don't think of it as close-ups
• 26:32
  at all. No, I think it cheats.
• 26:36
  I'm not sure you can watch Flux and say that there isn't.
• 26:40
  No, I think my flux is sort, it's basically sorted out.
• 26:43
  It's definitely overseas and 11 issue.
• 26:46
  There's a lot of stuff in like Rosa and a Seranga Conundrum
• 26:52
  where there's a lot of closeups and it's not particularly clear
• 26:55
  what is going on or what you meant to be feeling.
• 26:57
  I think that's because those are like more Rosa's, a more
• 27:01
  intimate story, you know, so you you'll go in with the characters
• 27:04
  on the journey. So it's not about it.
• 27:05
  The Seranga conundrum. I mean, whatever.
• 27:07
  I think that's a lot of fun, but I've never really noticed.
• 27:09
  I think it's quite a confined space.
• 27:11
  They're shooting it and that's the only thing I can think of.
• 27:14
  The team flying through space at one point I.
• 27:18
  Don't know, but I don't really. I don't really watch anything
• 27:21
  and think, oh, that's a fantastic piece of direction
• 27:23
  because I don't particularly know too much about it.
• 27:25
  It's it's it's specific ones like whenever Nico and used to
• 27:29
  direct like an episode. I notice more when something is
• 27:33
  badly directed than when it's like Nightmare and Silver is
• 27:37
  appallingly directed. And I'm aware in every scene
• 27:41
  just how terribly directed that is.
• 27:44
  Yeah, I mean that that that's a whole other best.
• 27:47
  Whole other best. I I don't think I'll ever watch
• 27:49
  that again. That's got 2 Matt Smiths talking
• 27:53
  to each other. I mean the pain.
• 27:56
  I've seen it plenty of times. Look at this.
• 27:59
  Look at these shows here. We're only in this street for a
• 28:03
  second and they've dressed that whole street and and flames.
• 28:07
  It looks great. I think Nightmare and Silva is
• 28:11
  marginally better than the doctor's wife.
• 28:13
  Marginally. I don't really like EVE often.
• 28:17
  I don't like EVE often, though. They're both low down.
• 28:21
  It's not low. My jaw has dropped to such an
• 28:23
  extent you can fit 4 cocks in it right now.
• 28:28
  A horror. Oh no.
• 28:31
  No, that's nightmare and silver. There's only two of us here.
• 28:36
  Luke, I haven't done Nightmare in Silver yet.
• 28:37
  We may have to talk. All right.
• 28:39
  But I wouldn't come on there and defend it, because I don't
• 28:41
  particularly like it either. But I don't hate it.
• 28:46
  Bizarrely enough, I don't think the Nazis get any focus at all
• 28:49
  in here, and yet it's still a more responsible take on them
• 28:51
  than let's kill Hitler. Then Nazi master.
• 28:55
  Oh my God, I've never wanted a fuck a villain more than I do
• 28:59
  Really rest up as a fascist. I mean, that just does it for
• 29:03
  you. So the evil, dumb music is
• 29:05
  really good to go, but it's the only piece of music really that
• 29:10
  I sort of would recognize. Come on, look at him.
• 29:13
  He looks fantastic there. Do we think?
• 29:18
  I know we've done Let's Go Hitler's obviously happened.
• 29:20
  But do we think Doctor Who's OK to do Nazis?
• 29:23
  Like, do we think it's an OK subject matter?
• 29:25
  Everything else can do. Nazis.
• 29:26
  Yeah. Do you know, do you know when it
• 29:28
  wasn't OK, Sorry that Brian Hales, when he submitted The
• 29:32
  Smugglers, was also submitted a Doctor Who story about Nazis.
• 29:35
  And I bet that would have been. I bet that would have been the
• 29:38
  most cancelable bit of television.
• 29:40
  I think it's quite old hat, though, to do Nazis, You know,
• 29:44
  you were saying that Doctor Who's always 10 years behind the
• 29:46
  time. Like why?
• 29:48
  Why is TV still doing Nazis? Really.
• 29:51
  Well, silver Nemesis was doing Nazis.
• 29:54
  Yeah, that was the laziest Nazis you ever see.
• 29:57
  Yeah, I had no clue what was going on there.
• 30:00
  As long as it doesn't try and do something that's that terrible,
• 30:03
  like as in that much of A threat and that much of an effect on
• 30:06
  people's lives sort of when this it's still within living memory.
• 30:11
  I know there are sort of older people that are still about who
• 30:13
  would have lived through that, but they're very old.
• 30:15
  I mean it I somebody sent me a link once to a fan film that was
• 30:19
  dealing with Doctor Who and 911 and it was like, don't, don't
• 30:23
  put those things together. I have a moment of therapy here
• 30:26
  for a second with you guys. Small confession because I love
• 30:30
  this scene so much. Him and his mother, right?
• 30:33
  Because. I was always trying to impress
• 30:35
  my mother and to see her sitting in that chair, absolutely
• 30:37
  disinterested and refusing to give him one morsel.
• 30:40
  That was my mother. I used to wish her dead all the
• 30:43
  time. So some part of me is leaning
• 30:46
  into this. I mean, I've lost.
• 30:47
  I shouldn't really say that, but people are allowed to have.
• 30:51
  People are allowed to have complicated relationships with
• 30:53
  their parents, and I think there's this thing I love the
• 30:56
  fact that that Lenny Henry's whole character is just that I
• 30:59
  was really just trying to get approval from my mom, you know,
• 31:01
  I think that's quite a quite a fun.
• 31:03
  Idea I live here in just like a big garage.
• 31:06
  She's also an garage. She's kidnapped.
• 31:09
  Her in She doesn't just hang out in the garage.
• 31:14
  You really weren't paying attention, were you?
• 31:17
  Oh, it was. From her direction, OK.
• 31:17
  I was. It wasn't clear that direction.
• 31:25
  But it's a figure as well. It's like, well, if he's willing
• 31:27
  to kill his mother, he'll go to any lengths.
• 31:31
  I've not heard your Silver Nemesis 1 yet, but when we did
• 31:34
  it for Lost on Gallifrey, I actually found myself quite
• 31:38
  liking it because it was short and punchy, but also what I
• 31:41
  found the most interesting thing about it is that it it's like a
• 31:44
  combination of all three show runners.
• 31:46
  Because you have like the Rusty Davis, sort of like groundedness
• 31:50
  in characters. You got the chip mills like
• 31:52
  obsession with origins and and whatever and you got the Stephen
• 31:55
  Moffett just like bits all over the place and time in what I
• 31:57
  mean it's yeah, that's interesting.
• 32:01
  Yeah, watch it. Watch it again and you see bits
• 32:04
  of all the showrunners in silver.
• 32:06
  Things about that commentary. One, we both fucking adored it
• 32:09
  and 2NSFW. That's all I I can't be
• 32:17
  objective about the McCoy era. I just love it so much that I
• 32:19
  can't. It's like I can see certain
• 32:22
  faults, but I will defend every single one of them.
• 32:25
  I just love every single. Episode Nemesis is absurdly
• 32:28
  flawed. And yet, Oh yeah, it's
• 32:30
  effortlessly entertaining. Is there a bad McCoy story?
• 32:34
  I don't think so. I don't think there is people
• 32:36
  point at time in the Ronnie, but they would be wrong.
• 32:38
  Well, some people point at Dragonflow, but we put them
• 32:40
  wrong, didn't we? Yeah, exactly.
• 32:42
  We put them right, not wrong. Oh, yeah.
• 32:44
  Sorry. I think Jagged Fire is my least
• 32:47
  favorite and so I will say that I think.
• 32:49
  You've got a treat coming up in the hamster schedules.
• 32:52
  But but I still quite like it. I quite like them all.
• 32:57
  Yeah, they're all great. And then, for a long time,
• 32:59
  Season 24 was like everybody hated it, but everyone loves it
• 33:02
  now, right? Yeah.
• 33:04
  Was it your favorite by any chance?
• 33:06
  It's my favorite. Yeah, mine's 26.
• 33:09
  That's the best area of Doctor Who ever.
• 33:11
  Probably is. This sequence reminds me of that
• 33:16
  bit in Sleepy Hollow. You know where they they start
• 33:18
  tearing up the floorboards with someone Highlands and it's
• 33:21
  really tense. This is really quite dark for
• 33:24
  Doctor. You could see the same scene in
• 33:28
  any sort of war, 15 or 18 years. Schindler's List it is.
• 33:32
  It's pretty much lifted from Schindler's List on this thing.
• 33:34
  And very well done as well. Yeah.
• 33:37
  There it was. Okay.
• 33:38
  So I can drop my bit of trivia now because the character has
• 33:41
  arrived. It's a fabulous what's the name?
• 33:43
  No, no, no. No call.
• 33:46
  No call that would do and that is that Chris Chibnall in his
• 33:52
  Divine Right wrote her execution scene into the episode and it
• 33:57
  was filmed and it was edited into the episode.
• 34:02
  And God, everybody around him, said Chris.
• 34:05
  This has got to come out where all it takes has left the
• 34:10
  building. This is made me really think
• 34:13
  Christian. That sequence is out there
• 34:16
  somewhere or that pool will be merged.
• 34:19
  It's this. There was almost that moment,
• 34:22
  wasn't there? That was written into by Gareth
• 34:24
  Roberts or maybe even Rusty Davis.
• 34:26
  But they both were. There was that moment in not
• 34:30
  ideas landing. What's the, what's it called?
• 34:34
  The Giant Wasp one, yes. And they were going to mention a
• 34:40
  list of Agatha Christie ones, and there's one obviously called
• 34:46
  and it was gonna cut at that point to the 10th Doctor going
• 34:49
  niggles the brain, doesn't it? And it's like.
• 34:52
  Yeah, yeah, it's acceptable. It's acceptable.
• 34:55
  It's in the right is tail, but I don't know whether he says it in
• 34:59
  the right is tail. I don't think it ever got
• 35:01
  further than a thought. I mean it was in I think it was
• 35:04
  in the script for a bit and then they suddenly went no, this is,
• 35:07
  this is too. Much I think he said.
• 35:09
  I I was like trying to figure out a way to get it in the
• 35:12
  script before realizing maybe it shouldn't be there.
• 35:16
  I think there was some shocking lapses and taste from Moffett as
• 35:19
  well in his run. Again, though, I don't think the
• 35:23
  lapses would happen now. They shouldn't have happened
• 35:26
  then, but I don't think they'd happen now.
• 35:28
  Having those 3 black characters in Journey to the Senate where
• 35:31
  the targets all turned out to be.
• 35:33
  Criminals and thieves. And shit, actors.
• 35:35
  Yeah, that's the biggest crime. This is a beautiful shot of them
• 35:41
  with the reflection of the burning Paris in the window.
• 35:43
  And this is often for me. This is iconic, this shot and it
• 35:47
  is, it is doing. It's a fine shot.
• 35:50
  It's not iconic, is it? It is.
• 35:52
  It's three women. I didn't even know.
• 35:55
  That shot is not in printed itself.
• 35:56
  In my mind I. Feel sorry for you?
• 35:59
  Then? That's because you're a bigot.
• 36:02
  Stop it, Dylan. But I I genuinely think there is
• 36:06
  a portion of fandom that will be appalled at the idea of three
• 36:08
  powerful women there in a scene in Doctor Who.
• 36:13
  I I mean it's it's very, It should be brilliant.
• 36:17
  It is. Brilliant it is.
• 36:19
  The only one particularly like here is Ada Lovelace, because
• 36:22
  she's been, she's have a bit of a character, she's actually done
• 36:25
  something in the episode. No, car doesn't do anything
• 36:29
  really. She just hangs about and we've
• 36:33
  gone through, we've gone through the doctor.
• 36:36
  Now she's magnificent. This is, this is the doctor that
• 36:43
  filmed herself in the heart of the pandemic saying it's all
• 36:47
  right to be afraid children, but we're going to get through this.
• 36:50
  Every line she delivers, it's just a clunker.
• 36:53
  Just that she's hard to watch. She's physically hard to watch.
• 36:56
  You embarrass me, Luke. I just.
• 37:00
  I just. I just don't get it.
• 37:01
  And I know once you've got the ick about a doctor or an actor
• 37:04
  like that, it's really hard to unget it.
• 37:06
  But I mean, this is spoilers for a future too hot for TV.
• 37:11
  That's Luke. Malloy is on, but I really
• 37:13
  struggle with Christopher Eccleston.
• 37:15
  I I don't think he's a very good actor at all.
• 37:17
  Oh yeah, that's a good tease. But we'll go into that in that
• 37:21
  episode. But I get the same thing when
• 37:23
  he's shouting at that Dalek. I'm just a bit like oh.
• 37:25
  And the suit of me is suitably teased.
• 37:29
  Oh, here we go. The laser.
• 37:30
  Cheese. Now this is Blue Doctor Who.
• 37:33
  This is It's shot like a spy thriller, but it's got laser
• 37:37
  beams coming out of his shoes. The tasty girl does not know,
• 37:43
  right? He had no.
• 37:44
  Idea. Look at him.
• 37:45
  Look at those lips. I'd snog him for hours.
• 37:49
  And don't you have a go, mate? You always there saying about
• 37:53
  how pretty those girls are in the Moffett era?
• 37:55
  When was I having a go? You were?
• 37:57
  Giving me a disapproving. Look, no.
• 38:00
  I was giving his act in a disapproving look.
• 38:03
  I've got one criticism of that scene.
• 38:06
  All those security guards look like they've just been dressed
• 38:09
  out of like a Peacocks and they've never worn those clothes
• 38:11
  before. Those clothes need to be worn,
• 38:14
  not like worn down, but they need to look lift in.
• 38:16
  But it's like they've all always their first day on the job.
• 38:19
  This, this, that was in the trailer, the of the Morse code
• 38:23
  thing going along the tunnels into the master in the this is
• 38:27
  imagery I remember. This is a nice touch.
• 38:33
  It's it just feels like, you know, it's heading towards this
• 38:36
  epic confrontation and this epic climax and.
• 38:39
  Do you think the master being in that sea is is too far?
• 38:42
  No, and I know that literally is his character is that he kills
• 38:45
  people and body bar. No.
• 38:47
  I think that the Master would utilize any force, any army on
• 38:52
  any planet and manipulate people.
• 38:54
  If he yeah, it might just be. This is the fellow relied
• 38:57
  himself with the Daleks. In front, I know, yeah, but the
• 38:59
  Daleks aren't real. I think that's it, isn't it just
• 39:02
  it's a bit more. It's like the physically violent
• 39:05
  thing. It's always the same.
• 39:06
  Argument or let's go hit The Nazis are real and they were
• 39:09
  used as comedy stooges in that or the 3rd.
• 39:11
  Yeah, but that's that's almost more acceptable in Doctor Who
• 39:15
  because they're doctors friends with Chairman Ma and and in the
• 39:18
  ultimate venture, he's friends with Margaret Thatcher, which is
• 39:21
  possibly the worst crime Doctor Who's ever committed.
• 39:23
  But they didn't know what they were doing.
• 39:24
  Back then. Terrence Dix knew exactly what
• 39:28
  he was doing. He was a big, chubby Tory.
• 39:32
  Aside from the fact that he looks smoking hot in the
• 39:34
  uniform, I just feel like making the master a Nazi is a perfect
• 39:39
  fear. I don't know.
• 39:40
  I think it makes it too real for me for.
• 39:43
  I just think of the the cartoon aim the master.
• 39:47
  I can't imagine him. Leaves us up to the bit in a
• 39:49
  minute that so many people object to and I fucking love.
• 39:53
  And it's that bit where she reveals his skin color and it's
• 39:57
  a really uncomfortable moment. It's supposed to be.
• 40:00
  Questionable decision that she makes and I like it because we
• 40:04
  don't often get that with Jody Whitkins.
• 40:05
  Dr. We don't often go. Should she really be doing that?
• 40:09
  I really. We get that all the time, but
• 40:11
  the show tells you that it that she's exactly right and don't
• 40:15
  question it like it doesn't do that here.
• 40:19
  Interacting to the UK, you know when she gives a spider, there
• 40:22
  is literally no debate to have. She's right.
• 40:24
  Move on. Which is the least dramatically
• 40:26
  interesting way to go about. But I think the Doctor, you
• 40:29
  know, could be accused of being a bit of a like a colonial, you
• 40:34
  know, like the Doctor shows up and imposes.
• 40:36
  His view onto alien nations to the all her view to onto alien
• 40:40
  races and nations and goes, this is right, this is wrong, and
• 40:44
  you're going to behave like this and I'm going to sort it out.
• 40:46
  I don't think the idea that the doctor is somehow this moral
• 40:50
  arbitrator that is completely right all the time is a bit of a
• 40:53
  fallacy, I think. Yeah, I to be honest, this
• 40:56
  doesn't bother me. Nor does it bother me when the
• 40:58
  Doctor does. Morally dubious things actually
• 41:01
  quite like it. What bothers me in the WIT
• 41:03
  career is that regardless of what she does.
• 41:06
  You you are told it's the right decision.
• 41:08
  The the farm also, it's the right decision and we there's
• 41:11
  just never any conflict there. Anybody in Iraq is in the UK
• 41:14
  said that was the right thing to do.
• 41:16
  I just don't think anyone comments on that at all.
• 41:19
  Yeah, which I think is wrong. But I think we don't.
• 41:22
  The Doctor isn't pulled up enough in general outside of
• 41:25
  this era on the sort of morally ambiguous decisions sometimes.
• 41:29
  There is something about the risk that makes it stand out
• 41:31
  though, I think. I I I don't think it stands out.
• 41:35
  I think people because there's a weird sort of dislike among some
• 41:41
  people with the error that they that people just for anything.
• 41:46
  No, I think I find it because because I find that
• 41:48
  insufferable. The fact that no one questions
• 41:50
  anything she does or challenges it makes it more insufferable.
• 41:54
  But the worst example of what you're talking about is though,
• 41:57
  and I'll say it a million times, it's A Christmas Carol, where
• 42:00
  the Doctor does fucking appalling things, rewriting
• 42:03
  somebody's life, and the whole episode is dressed up as a
• 42:06
  massive fairy tale as if he's done the right thing.
• 42:09
  I think it's far worse there than it is here.
• 42:12
  But it makes him better. It doesn't matter.
• 42:14
  He's got no right to play God. You cannot change history or not
• 42:17
  one line, All this bullshit. Morally dubious.
• 42:24
  That's what you said. Yeah, it's very morally dubious,
• 42:27
  but nobody comments on it. Everyone says what a marvelous
• 42:30
  thing he did. But they do though, because Cast
• 42:33
  ran himself Comments on it says you got no right.
• 42:36
  Change in my life wasn't who he was going to be though by.
• 42:39
  The end. By the end of it, he's all happy
• 42:41
  that you know that his life has been changed.
• 42:44
  Jack and Katherine Jenkins, of course.
• 42:45
  Yeah, but I think as as an audience, well, obviously not
• 42:49
  for you, but I think for me I was like, well, yeah, it makes
• 42:51
  total sense. I think everyone, by the end of
• 42:54
  that story, is happier and you know.
• 42:57
  You're not challenging his decision today, what he's doing
• 42:59
  the Christmas go. I don't think people challenge
• 43:02
  it enough because generally people are OK with the era, and
• 43:05
  I think because people aren't OK with this era, they're looking
• 43:08
  for to pull it apart in ways that I think it doing things
• 43:12
  that Doctor Who's always done. I don't know.
• 43:14
  I think it's here and lends itself to being pulled, pulled
• 43:16
  apart easier because it's just not as well written or cleverly
• 43:21
  put together. I also don't, but it's a simpler
• 43:23
  error, but I don't think it's. I I don't think.
• 43:27
  I don't think it's a badly written era at all.
• 43:29
  I think that that's a lazy criticism that people throw.
• 43:31
  It is. I think Doctor Who is scifi
• 43:35
  simplified and perhaps it wasn't for the Moffett era, but it
• 43:37
  certainly wasn't the Russell T Davis era.
• 43:40
  You know, I think it's an accessible version of science
• 43:42
  fiction for a mainstream audience and it it doesn't deal
• 43:47
  in complexities too much. But it had been doing that for a
• 43:50
  little. Bit I wouldn't say it's badly
• 43:51
  written. It's a lot more simply written
• 43:53
  than the other two areas. And I think when you've got a
• 43:56
  Doctor performance on top of that, that I don't like it.
• 44:00
  I just struggle, especially when I when I've liked the Stephen
• 44:03
  Moffett era being so challenging on different levels.
• 44:08
  Now I'm coming to the conclusion, you know this era
• 44:10
  ain't for you. Look.
• 44:11
  Really. See, I love this pair look.
• 44:17
  Nor and Ada roaming the streets working for the doctor.
• 44:22
  Yeah, I love a Big Finish box set soon.
• 44:24
  Well, you better believe it. This bit on the on the tower,
• 44:27
  right? I think it's iconic for lots of
• 44:29
  reasons. I think it's a great
• 44:30
  confrontation scene with terrific acting, but.
• 44:33
  It has a bouquet. It's very clever.
• 44:36
  Well, it's got some fabulous continuity as well, some deep
• 44:38
  dive continuity too. Oh yeah, but they even got that
• 44:41
  wrong, didn't they? You get, you said to George your
• 44:44
  bank, but it was actually the Pharaohs project.
• 44:46
  God's sake, Jim is such a geek. But you've also got the
• 44:51
  opportunity for the pair of them to ask questions, and there are
• 44:54
  pertinent plot points revealed here too.
• 44:57
  So a lot of the stuff that hasn't been explained so far,
• 45:00
  the two major players in the story get to interrogate each
• 45:03
  other and explain what is going on.
• 45:06
  It's really well done. And then you get the bit of the
• 45:08
  game where she behaves shocking in a shocking manner as well,
• 45:11
  which is another little layer on top of it.
• 45:13
  I'll just think this is a terrific sequence.
• 45:18
  I'm sort of like tuned out by this point.
• 45:22
  The last 20 minutes have been just so disinterested that I'm
• 45:26
  sort of. I think that's why I don't
• 45:27
  really have an opinion on the whole perception filter thing.
• 45:31
  I feel sad for you. Yeah.
• 45:33
  But you know why? It's because I don't.
• 45:36
  You're not winning at life. But I'm not enjoying it.
• 45:37
  Oh yeah, no. But like as I said, I wouldn't
• 45:40
  watch it if it went for this podcast right now.
• 45:43
  We wanted to do this because it'd be interested and it has
• 45:46
  really been interested. For the last 20 minutes, for you
• 45:51
  it's the. First podcast where really I
• 45:54
  felt like properly under the cost.
• 45:57
  From the from the off, but not because it is, because it is
• 46:00
  very actually hard to just articulate something when the
• 46:02
  fundamental line is just you don't like it.
• 46:05
  And this is where I was when you and I discussed Father's Day.
• 46:09
  Yeah, and I came at you. I had a list of reasons.
• 46:12
  At you? What did you just say?
• 46:17
  You know what? It says.
• 46:19
  I'm still wiping it out in my eyes now.
• 46:23
  Yeah, I afraid it's gone again. Yeah.
• 46:27
  It's not gone. It's not gone.
• 46:29
  Gallifrey's. There, she goes there.
• 46:32
  This Citadel's been destroyed. Gallifrey's not gone, so they
• 46:36
  could easily just rebuild it, the technologies.
• 46:38
  Are there other cities on Gallifrey that were before the
• 46:41
  Time War? That was what was a good
• 46:42
  Arcadia. My my take away from it is that
• 46:48
  he's. Fucked up a lot of Time Lords.
• 46:50
  A lot of them are dead. But there are other Time Lords I
• 46:52
  didn't take from this. It's like the ultimate
• 46:54
  destruction of Gallifrey. We literally see it at the end
• 46:57
  of the episode. Yeah, I think that's for.
• 47:00
  I just think, I think for the first time it's destroyed.
• 47:03
  I'm not talking in spinoffs, you know, Rusty Davis destroyed it.
• 47:07
  Does something, makes it, gives the Doctor proper character.
• 47:10
  Bringing it back at the 50th meant something.
• 47:12
  It it was a a new drive and it worked well in the anniversary,
• 47:16
  I think it did mean something. No, but it worked well in that
• 47:19
  what it led to was hell. I know it.
• 47:20
  I know where it goes. Which is a great story.
• 47:23
  Yeah, and it is because. Because hell feel like that's
• 47:26
  where all the viewers jumped. Shit, where we were down in the
• 47:28
  Matrix models talking about Gallifrey and.
• 47:30
  Hell, Ben, what the fuck is this all about?
• 47:34
  I didn't like Hell Bent on Transition whatsoever, but it is
• 47:37
  really good. But it just rejects the idea of
• 47:41
  what you think a Gallifrey story should be and instead puts the
• 47:44
  characters at center stage. It's a brilliant story, what I
• 47:47
  think rejects what you think Gallifrey should be.
• 47:51
  Don't say it. Don't say the end of this
• 47:53
  season. No, it's no.
• 47:55
  That is exactly all about Gallifrey and the two most
• 47:59
  interesting characters to have come out of Gallifrey, which is
• 48:02
  the Doctor and the Master. Boring each other to death.
• 48:10
  The Timeless Children is exactly what Moffett rejected doing,
• 48:14
  because it's it's a boring Gallifrey story and instead he
• 48:17
  does something with the main characters.
• 48:19
  But some center stage makes it really interesting.
• 48:22
  Yeah, I mean the the my love of hell bent is that he goes back
• 48:25
  and is willing to basically almost destroy his home planet
• 48:28
  and the web of time just to save his best friend, the person that
• 48:30
  he loves. But he's psychotic, isn't he?
• 48:34
  Yeah, but I think that's I always said.
• 48:37
  The actual story. If if Doctor Who finished after
• 48:41
  Hell Bent, it would be the perfect closure for the new
• 48:43
  series. I think you know but well.
• 48:47
  It was going to be Moffett's conclusion, wasn't it?
• 48:50
  Well, one of the many it was going to be husbands of River.
• 48:53
  Yeah, it was that. And then it was husbands.
• 48:54
  And then it was fabulous. Happily ever After all I loved
• 48:57
  to have gone out there. I mean, even when Kapadi was
• 49:02
  looking for it, it was sort of exciting because we've been
• 49:04
  deprived of it. But like just to join it again,
• 49:09
  it is. So unimaginative.
• 49:13
  But The thing is for me is I find Gallifrey stories
• 49:16
  interminably. Well, it just, it just feels
• 49:19
  like this bold new era in series 11 has just quickly become
• 49:23
  derivative of taking out Gallifrey and the Sisterhood of
• 49:26
  Khan and all that bullshit and just having a setting, the sort
• 49:31
  of dramatically rendered and having a character tale between
• 49:34
  two people on it. That's the best of Gallifrey
• 49:37
  with the best characters that came from Gallifrey.
• 49:40
  It works for me. But it's a terrible story.
• 49:43
  It's not even a story. I I would, I said this very
• 49:46
  recently somewhere, but I would just love a Gallifrey story that
• 49:49
  just wasn't set in the in the capital or in the Citadel.
• 49:52
  Could we like oh, a Gallifrey story is set in in a somewhere
• 49:56
  else on Gallifrey and watch Invasion of Time Leela heads out
• 49:59
  into the hills. But no.
• 50:00
  Hell Bent. Hell Bent isn't set there.
• 50:02
  All there, you know. Something like that, like
• 50:05
  someone actually actually that wasn't just orange or.
• 50:09
  The Citadel, like an actual different little city or
• 50:12
  underground bit or, I don't know, just.
• 50:14
  Some like a bohemian arty place where it's just coffee shops and
• 50:18
  the craft beer bars. Fuck of Infinity you're talking.
• 50:21
  About Oh yes, The Lounge of Rattle On.
• 50:24
  I do like this sequence. You know, we're talking to this
• 50:27
  audience about giving away all their information because I'm
• 50:30
  like, fuck me, yeah, that's me, that's me, that's me.
• 50:33
  I've given away that. I've given away my credit card
• 50:35
  details. So many TV shows have touched on
• 50:37
  this. Yeah, and we're going to get
• 50:39
  more of this stuff with Russell back.
• 50:41
  You know, there's going to be like some terrible thing about
• 50:43
  Bitcoin or something. But you know, you're saying that
• 50:45
  like you don't care for anyone in the audience.
• 50:47
  I think Russell would put in a line that he'd have two quirky
• 50:50
  characters, and I agree. With you and Russ was the master
• 50:54
  not doing that. Yeah.
• 50:55
  And then suddenly you're invested.
• 50:58
  I remember him talking about The Truman Show.
• 51:00
  Yeah, I know you guys have ever seen that.
• 51:02
  Fantastic. Greatest films ever made.
• 51:05
  And he said the one character, the jury's eye more than anyone
• 51:08
  is the woman in the bar serving the drinks and the camera
• 51:12
  lingers on her whenever we go to them watching the TV show and
• 51:16
  their stories never told. And he and he said he just, he
• 51:20
  felt something for that character and that's what he
• 51:23
  tried to bring to a lot of these instrumental characters having
• 51:26
  an impact. He always says about the stones
• 51:28
  of blood, doesn't he? Would be the campers that aren't
• 51:32
  relevant in the story, but do add so much to what the Oakre
• 51:35
  are doing. I've been told she's recently
• 51:37
  been seen on Ice World by Dylan Reese.
• 51:40
  Yeah, she's in dragon fire. God, she she is a camper.
• 51:46
  There you are. I've been looking all over for
• 51:48
  you boys. Come on.
• 51:50
  Talking of Nazis as well, that market is submitted a Nazi story
• 51:55
  for series four. I had it very recently, but that
• 51:58
  wouldn't have aged very well at all either.
• 52:01
  I can't remember the details of it, but it was set in like a
• 52:03
  Nazi museum or something. Yeah, but I thought it was set
• 52:05
  in a a museum. No, I don't think it was about.
• 52:10
  Works of art that the government had hidden during World War 2 so
• 52:15
  they wouldn't get destroyed. So it was set under the British
• 52:18
  Museum. I don't think it was about Nazi
• 52:19
  art. I don't know.
• 52:21
  There's a podcast I heard very recently that said I'm glad that
• 52:24
  didn't get made, but maybe they were just being dramatic.
• 52:26
  Remember I said earlier about chippers sort of ripping at
• 52:30
  Moffett and his time in Wyoming, US.
• 52:32
  He's doing the same thing here with the curse of fatal death.
• 52:34
  When the master walks in and goes, for God's sake, 77 years.
• 52:38
  It's taken me to get him, which is what happens.
• 52:40
  And he keeps falling down that hole, doesn't he?
• 52:42
  Goes. How does he survive the Nazis
• 52:45
  doing that? Do we just take it for granted?
• 52:47
  He's better than them, isn't? He he was pretty serious from
• 52:52
  our stroke. Everything.
• 52:53
  Even the end of the witches familiar, yeah?
• 52:56
  Valid point taken. I like the fact that the mother
• 53:00
  is just there in the back of the scene the whole time, a poor
• 53:04
  woman. I also presume that the master
• 53:09
  will have just hypnotized the Nazis and just buggered off.
• 53:12
  Essentially, he's going to let me go and.
• 53:14
  I think my issue with Part 2 as well, I think it's naturally
• 53:18
  come off over the course of this podcast.
• 53:19
  I just don't think we should have really gone into Nazi World
• 53:22
  War Two. I think I've had an issue since
• 53:24
  we've gone there. I don't mind it.
• 53:27
  It's. The the only real, I mean the
• 53:30
  Nazis are obviously a threat in it, but the only person we see
• 53:33
  them doing any sort of wrong to essentially is the master, who
• 53:37
  is a bit of a wrong. Yeah, I today it's sort of.
• 53:41
  Or maybe we're saying it's got sympathetic Nazi agenda and we
• 53:44
  can point that at Chris Chip. Not no, no, I'm not.
• 53:46
  Probably not Doctor Who doing Nazis.
• 53:47
  I think like just the master Jessed up was one and it just
• 53:51
  feels physically a bit too. But today you can't articulate
• 53:54
  it. We just.
• 53:56
  But yeah, I I I'm repeating what I said earlier but I find it in
• 54:00
  Let's Go Hitler far more offensive where it's just played
• 54:03
  for comedy. Yeah, at least it's played for
• 54:06
  that real. I mean, it was going to be
• 54:07
  played a bit too real because we were going to see porn or being
• 54:11
  executed. I can understand the thinking
• 54:13
  behind the comedy, won't they? Well, he said, didn't he muff
• 54:17
  it? He was like, you've got one of
• 54:18
  the worst people in human history.
• 54:19
  Of course we would insult him by knocking him out straight away
• 54:22
  and knocking him in a cupboard because we can't go and do a big
• 54:26
  story with Hitler. It just wouldn't be right.
• 54:29
  Yeah. Feels more tasteless.
• 54:30
  It leaves an icky taste in my mouth.
• 54:35
  I wouldn't do if Rory the Roman met with the Master during the
• 54:39
  76 years. Actually, I'm scared.
• 54:42
  I'm scared. Big Finish.
• 54:43
  You've got the same thought. They've got Sasha, the one now
• 54:46
  in that Box 1 issue with the climax here is she's doing
• 54:51
  exactly the same thing with the plot that she's doing with the
• 54:53
  plane, and that is she comes along, preprogrammed this thing
• 54:57
  so there was never a threat in the 1st place, and the second it
• 55:00
  was going to be activated, the cassava were going to be sucked
• 55:03
  into it. So actually the whole thing is
• 55:06
  presented as a big threat to the Earth, but actually that threat
• 55:09
  was never going to happen because back in time she's
• 55:12
  already preprogrammed that thing to not do what it's supposed to
• 55:14
  do. She.
• 55:14
  Explains it all so insufferably. I mean, she solved the cassava
• 55:19
  and overtaking the world by just fiddling off screen with the
• 55:22
  Masters. TARDIS, which is which is which
• 55:26
  is which is the like core of every bad classic master story.
• 55:31
  As the Doctor fixes it by fiddling with the TARDIS off
• 55:33
  screen. Perfect.
• 55:36
  Just what we want. Yeah, I'm standing there with
• 55:39
  that screwdriver, fixing the plot.
• 55:41
  It's a 2 parter. The resolution's got to be
• 55:43
  clever. Yeah, there's so many Doctor Who
• 55:46
  stories by all your favorite writers where they fiddle around
• 55:49
  with a computer or pointless on a screwdriver and it's all
• 55:52
  fixed. It's about the ride with Doctor
• 55:55
  Who. It's never about.
• 55:56
  Yeah, but a lot. Of disfaction, of store.
• 55:57
  The end of the stories are never that satisfying.
• 55:59
  No, but a lot of the time it yeah, a lot of the time it is
• 56:02
  they just press with buttons. But they they do seem to have an
• 56:05
  emotional payoff. I've said all of our CD's for
• 56:08
  all is a sort of cheap get outs, but the reason they don't feel
• 56:11
  like it's because someone usually pays the price or
• 56:14
  there's some sort of emotional payoff.
• 56:16
  So he sort of gets away with it. Well, Jody pays the price here.
• 56:19
  The doctor pays the price. The doctor's.
• 56:20
  That's the whole arc of this story.
• 56:22
  She suddenly, she suddenly doesn't know who she is.
• 56:24
  And you know, she starts to get very worked up and anxious about
• 56:27
  it throughout the season. So, like I'm forgetting you'll
• 56:30
  beef with the timeless child that is 100% scattered through
• 56:33
  this season and like how it affects our relationship with
• 56:36
  the fam. It doesn't affect it.
• 56:41
  It doesn't affect it too much though.
• 56:43
  I mean, she's just a bit Moody. In the same way that she sort of
• 56:46
  was anyway. But no.
• 56:48
  It's a character for this doctor to be booty, I think.
• 56:51
  I see. She's fun.
• 56:53
  She's fun. She loves life.
• 56:56
  She's having a she's having a great time.
• 57:01
  No, not. For me, not for me.
• 57:03
  I'm just enjoying the debate. I've got to admit I would just
• 57:07
  skip past it, but I did like the subversion of oh.
• 57:11
  When the Master says it and she's outwitted him, I do think
• 57:14
  that is really good. What we We fucking turned the
• 57:18
  corner here, haven't we? You've said at least three
• 57:20
  positive things, which you can repeat at the end of the
• 57:22
  podcast. We have to say three things we
• 57:24
  love about this episode. A massive criticism about many
• 57:27
  doctors is this whole thing about deleting people's
• 57:29
  memories. Yeah.
• 57:31
  I don't. I don't like it.
• 57:32
  I don't get it. I don't like it when Capaldi and
• 57:34
  Matt Smith or anyone does it. Also, you know you could.
• 57:38
  It's a good job the doctor's a good person because otherwise
• 57:40
  they get up to some very dodgy shit of those sort of powers,
• 57:43
  you know? What?
• 57:43
  What does this add though like? Wiping their memories.
• 57:47
  Yeah, I think it's better. Does it not allow her to meet
• 57:51
  the 4th Doctor in the big? Finish What is the end of about
• 57:56
  500? What does it add?
• 57:59
  Unless he's conserving the continuity of a Big Finish
• 58:03
  script and and we know he's. We know he's not because by the
• 58:07
  by the time we get to. Theodotic.
• 58:09
  We know he's not doing that for that reason.
• 58:13
  Yeah, because Mary Shelley did it.
• 58:15
  Yeah, true, true. I'm not sure about unless.
• 58:18
  Unless she does that off screen at the end a little quick, man.
• 58:21
  What she's She's obviously deleting Ada's memory because
• 58:24
  she cannot know all this stuff about the futures computers and
• 58:27
  things like. That would.
• 58:28
  Would we care really, if she flew off?
• 58:31
  No. Also, there's a load.
• 58:34
  There's loads of historical characters the Doctor's done
• 58:37
  stuff with and then just gone well.
• 58:39
  He's very irresponsible. Yeah.
• 58:42
  Well, no. This is a more responsible.
• 58:44
  You've got an issue with the Christmas Carol where he's
• 58:46
  changing their lives, but not an issue where he's just, well,
• 58:49
  she's just mine, She's she's tidying up and she's gone.
• 58:52
  I never should have been here. So it's just take.
• 58:55
  Away you justify however you like tidying up, I will justify.
• 58:59
  Thank you for I've justified many things in my life mate.
• 59:04
  You never tidy them up though. No, it's bloody messy.
• 59:08
  There's so there's more dangling threads than a Stephen Moffett
• 59:11
  season. So we're going to Gallafry.
• 59:15
  Oh, this shot of look at this. It's.
• 59:18
  The same shot we've seen loads of times, but with flames.
• 59:22
  There's flames and the smoke all right, looks gorgeous, and the
• 59:26
  bit in the Timeless Children where you see it all being built
• 59:28
  up. Yeah, amazing.
• 59:31
  The history of the time. Or did you tell me she's not a
• 59:33
  motionless? She's got tears.
• 59:35
  This was the bit everyone had gone.
• 59:36
  Do you know what? That's Jody's darkest moment
• 59:39
  there. She can act because her tear
• 59:40
  falls down her face. I wasn't going to be.
• 59:44
  Her big moment for me in 11 was kissing the frog.
• 59:49
  I was like, yes, embracing life. The better moment in the
• 59:52
  universe. Yeah, gorgeous.
• 59:57
  I do prefer when this TARDIS is blue, you know?
• 59:59
  Can you hear me as well? I love.
• 1:00:02
  I love the walls and the background.
• 1:00:04
  It looks like it goes on forever but the center bit and I love
• 1:00:06
  this new stuff that the thing the master standing on the
• 1:00:08
  different layers and stuff like that.
• 1:00:10
  It looks really cool, but it's the central console and the ice
• 1:00:14
  lollycocks of death just over it from the.
• 1:00:16
  That toy did look like a dildo, didn't he?
• 1:00:19
  Yeah, no, it did like. I bought 7:00.
• 1:00:23
  I've got one in now. Stuck them together.
• 1:00:26
  No wonder you're smiling so much you see that bar.
• 1:00:34
  This is an enticing glimpse of what's to come.
• 1:00:37
  Yeah, I was so ready for this season by this point, especially
• 1:00:42
  that early bit where the timeless child that was
• 1:00:44
  mentioned on the ghost monument suddenly turned out to be a plot
• 1:00:47
  point. I was just like, I'm ready to go
• 1:00:50
  on the trip of a lifetime. Just just to be and I did like.
• 1:00:56
  This back to the ghost monument as well, because I've completely
• 1:00:59
  forgotten you. You like the rags?
• 1:01:03
  I'm on the rags I. Really.
• 1:01:04
  Like the rags, I think the weird and alien and F1 eights and it's
• 1:01:08
  one of the only things. It's a silly Doctor Who idea.
• 1:01:12
  It's what? When I say Pete, Doctor Who,
• 1:01:13
  that's what I mean. It's like that.
• 1:01:14
  Think of only Doctor Who would do killer bandages.
• 1:01:20
  You don't like lights that are silhouetted like Tom Baker, but
• 1:01:23
  you do like a bunch of flying rags.
• 1:01:25
  No, the lights are good. They just cook.
• 1:01:29
  They just don't. They don't hit enough a level
• 1:01:31
  yet, although it's the. Halls of nine more thing where
• 1:01:34
  the ball heads were supposed to come off and it was supposed to
• 1:01:36
  be something else underneath, but they couldn't afford it, so
• 1:01:38
  they just get the shitty ball heads.
• 1:01:41
  Although I will, I'll try and go like sort of quite analytical
• 1:01:44
  though for a second. There is something to be said
• 1:01:46
  about the Cassavan being everywhere and faceless and
• 1:01:52
  those being and all just for the real spy, which is technology.
• 1:01:57
  And how it's everywhere. Nameless, featureless.
• 1:01:59
  Never know when it's listening. That's quite a nice thematic tie
• 1:02:03
  up with the whole bot and technology thing as well as, you
• 1:02:07
  know, the monster. There's a thought there.
• 1:02:09
  There's definitely thought in there from Chip Bill.
• 1:02:13
  But Joseph, there's what he's doing all chippers.
• 1:02:15
  He's got a plan. You know, this second episode,
• 1:02:19
  yeah. When I sort of stepped back from
• 1:02:20
  it after I watched it earlier, I was like that had some history
• 1:02:23
  in it that had monsters in it that had a great villain in it.
• 1:02:26
  It had Gallifrey in it. It had parts.
• 1:02:29
  It. Had a great Doctor in it.
• 1:02:32
  It had fun companions in it. It had great action.
• 1:02:34
  It was all of Doctor Who in like, an hour.
• 1:02:37
  She's spouting the Doctor Who wiki right there.
• 1:02:41
  Do you think there is anything that would make you soften on
• 1:02:44
  this character? Do you think you're going to
• 1:02:45
  change your mind or something? Because most people, even if
• 1:02:48
  they have a violent sort of reaction, I don't mean violence
• 1:02:52
  is a good one. Yeah.
• 1:02:55
  Yeah. A lot of the people that hated,
• 1:02:59
  say, Colin Baker or Sylvester McCoy at the time, years later
• 1:03:02
  suddenly come back and go. Actually, do you know what?
• 1:03:04
  I quite. I quite like them now and I can
• 1:03:06
  see what they were going for. Do you think you're destined for
• 1:03:09
  a big reappraisal at some point, or do you think it will always?
• 1:03:11
  Be In a way it almost scares me. But no, I think that I
• 1:03:17
  definitely, I don't particularly hate it now because the year is
• 1:03:21
  over and it's gone. And what if it wears?
• 1:03:23
  It might have, it might have got me really angry or whatever at
• 1:03:26
  the time, but I don't think I'll ever turn around and like her or
• 1:03:29
  like the performance. I think I'll just find it.
• 1:03:32
  Nonplussed Did we reconvene for the 70th anniversary and see
• 1:03:36
  whether you've changed your mind and do another?
• 1:03:38
  I remember definitely being like, just not, not not a fan of
• 1:03:43
  Kapali. I was just like he's worse than
• 1:03:46
  the other three, easily hands down.
• 1:03:48
  And it was only by the time I got to the pie that I was sort
• 1:03:50
  of, really sort of got grasp on Kapali.
• 1:03:53
  By the time he left I was like he's he's just as good as all
• 1:03:57
  the others. But the difference being is when
• 1:03:59
  Kapali was the doctor and. I was unsure about more.
• 1:04:03
  I thought he was worse. I never disliked him or anything
• 1:04:05
  like that. I thought he was quite good.
• 1:04:08
  Yeah, I just didn't think he was going to 03.
• 1:04:09
  Whereas I found Jody, a lot of the time, sort of unwatchable.
• 1:04:14
  I think a fair comparison is like Dylan, will you ever soften
• 1:04:18
  and consider Eccleston a great actor in the role?
• 1:04:21
  Will I ever soften and consider Matt Smith a great actor in the
• 1:04:25
  role? I don't think we will.
• 1:04:27
  And I'm wondering if, Luke, I do have my moments though, if I do
• 1:04:31
  put on an Echostone story that I will still watch it and be like,
• 1:04:35
  I will find things to enjoy about that era.
• 1:04:37
  Because I love the era at the time.
• 1:04:39
  But even then I was still a little bit like, oh, there's
• 1:04:42
  just little flashes I don't like.
• 1:04:44
  And as I've got older and that series has aged more, I'm still
• 1:04:47
  like, I'm now more like, I really struggle with this this
• 1:04:50
  guy as as the Doctor, whereas yours is like almost like a
• 1:04:55
  really. I used to win violence again,
• 1:04:57
  but a really strong reaction against the whole era.
• 1:05:02
  Well, I think like at the time I never I was, I didn't know quite
• 1:05:05
  what it was and you've obviously got all fandom like reaction in
• 1:05:09
  your head as well on Twitter and then it's also the current
• 1:05:13
  Doctor Who and you can't see past it.
• 1:05:14
  So you know that's all going on you you like there's no future.
• 1:05:19
  This is the future of Doctor Who.
• 1:05:22
  Like as it's as it's now gone. It just doesn't really bother me
• 1:05:26
  that much. It's just gone.
• 1:05:28
  But I think, sorry. Yeah, I was going to say at the
• 1:05:31
  time, you don't really know what the cause is.
• 1:05:33
  And I think as time's going on, I've gone.
• 1:05:35
  Do you know what? I don't think Chibnil skips to
• 1:05:37
  that bad. I don't like his direction for
• 1:05:40
  the show and I don't like the story Oxy went with and I don't
• 1:05:43
  think the companions are that bad.
• 1:05:44
  And then it's sort of gone when I've heard that criticism, a lot
• 1:05:47
  of like, oh, it wasn't Jody Whisker, it was Chris Chibnell.
• 1:05:50
  I think I've gone the other way. I've gone.
• 1:05:52
  Actually, it's not Chris Chibnal, It's Jody Whisker.
• 1:05:55
  Specifically playing this role. It's so strange to me because
• 1:06:00
  I'm the complete reverse. I can see problems in the
• 1:06:03
  writing. I can see all this but my one.
• 1:06:08
  The thing I don't doubt for a second, the thing I keep coming
• 1:06:11
  back for, and the thing that provides me with the most
• 1:06:15
  entertainment is Jody Whiskers performance as the Doctor.
• 1:06:18
  I just love it. And I think if you like the
• 1:06:21
  doctor. The show you don't really like,
• 1:06:25
  you will like the show regardless and I think that's
• 1:06:28
  been trying to get my head drawn that as it went out as being my
• 1:06:31
  biggest problem with the West Korea, not realizing why I don't
• 1:06:34
  like the show and it fundamentally being because I
• 1:06:36
  don't like the doctor. And I think it's worth saying
• 1:06:39
  because what? Potentially you won't, because
• 1:06:43
  the hand fam audience is really lovely, but potentially you'll
• 1:06:46
  have people jumping on you saying you're a terrible sexist
• 1:06:48
  and all these terrible things that you're not and I know
• 1:06:51
  you're not, is. It is perfectly OK to have that
• 1:06:54
  opinion. I think it's come to a point
• 1:06:56
  where if people have that opinion, there is something, an
• 1:06:58
  army ready to jump on them and say how dare you.
• 1:07:02
  Not like Jodie Whisker. As a doctor, of course, it's
• 1:07:05
  absolutely fine to to have problems with the era and I
• 1:07:08
  think that's why I wanted to do this, because I knew you weren't
• 1:07:11
  going to change your mind just through talking to us.
• 1:07:13
  And you know, as as I've got problems with my areas and stuff
• 1:07:17
  like that, it's only that small minority of people who are
• 1:07:21
  literally just, they don't like Doctor Who because Doctor Who's
• 1:07:24
  a woman. There, you know, and I
• 1:07:26
  definitely didn't want to be the person every two minutes going
• 1:07:30
  like clarifying that. Oh yeah.
• 1:07:33
  Well, I'm not. I'm not sexist because we should
• 1:07:35
  take it as red. That's so boring and usually a
• 1:07:38
  bit of a flag. Anyway, I have a question for
• 1:07:42
  you both Is this because I foresee, I would.
• 1:07:47
  I foresee the new Russell T Davis era probably being more
• 1:07:51
  akin to this, certainly thematically, or this era
• 1:07:55
  thematically and in terms of an agenda, if we want to call it an
• 1:07:59
  agenda, people, you know, be it political or just about
• 1:08:02
  diversity, whatever. Do we think that the Jodie
• 1:08:05
  Whitaker era and going forward is the jumping off point for a
• 1:08:09
  certain group of fans? Perhaps people, you know, people
• 1:08:14
  in their 50s, sixties, 70s who love the classic era, who quite
• 1:08:17
  like the new series but they're fondness for it dwindles.
• 1:08:20
  You know, Moffett's too complicated.
• 1:08:23
  Don't what? Like don't like Jodie Whittaker.
• 1:08:25
  Chibnall's not a good writer. Do you think that that that
• 1:08:28
  we've now hit that jumping off point where there's going to be
• 1:08:30
  a bigger division in fandom? I think it's yes.
• 1:08:34
  I spoke to someone a couple of weeks ago who is exactly that
• 1:08:37
  person. And I've I've sort of seen
• 1:08:40
  rumblings dismissing the new series sort of in favor of the
• 1:08:46
  the golden days of the classic series.
• 1:08:49
  So yeah, a simple answer is I do think.
• 1:08:52
  Yeah, I think The Division only gets bigger.
• 1:08:54
  I think with any other show, if you're a fan of it and you don't
• 1:08:58
  like it, you jump off. But there's something about Dog
• 1:09:00
  Two. I'm living proof of it.
• 1:09:02
  But when you say you're going to jump on, you just keep watching,
• 1:09:05
  even if you don't like it. I also think in this new era, it
• 1:09:11
  is going to bring in an army of new, fresh fans as well.
• 1:09:16
  Who are going to have a as? Did this one, Yeah, it should be
• 1:09:19
  said, yeah. There were a lot of people who
• 1:09:23
  loved the Jodi era, and every I think it was.
• 1:09:26
  It may not be this huge reinvention that everybody
• 1:09:29
  wanted and this suddenly big rating success, but there are an
• 1:09:33
  army of people who loved the Jody area really jumped on for
• 1:09:37
  that point. Just like a lot of people jumped
• 1:09:39
  off for Peter Capaldi because they felt the Doctor should be a
• 1:09:42
  young man because that's all they've essentially known for a
• 1:09:45
  couple of Doctors. So we're just going to get more
• 1:09:50
  wider variety of voices as the show goes on, as long as it can
• 1:09:53
  keep attracting new people to it.
• 1:09:58
  Well lads, I'm going to try and draw this astonishing
• 1:10:04
  conversation to a conclusion by posing the problem of us finding
• 1:10:10
  9 reasons Why am I calling it a problem?
• 1:10:13
  It's going to be easy for me to it's going to be a problem for
• 1:10:16
  Luke. For 9 reasons to recommend
• 1:10:19
  Spyful and just to be contrary, we'll start with Luke.
• 1:10:23
  We'll go Luke, Dylan, Joe. Can I do free?
• 1:10:26
  Why not to recommend? It no, I didn't do that with
• 1:10:33
  Father's Day. That's true, and it's not in the
• 1:10:36
  spirit of Hamster. So that's the I What's it like?
• 1:10:45
  Wow. It's here we come back in 20.
• 1:10:53
  Minutes start with Dylan. It's no, hang on.
• 1:10:55
  It starts it start, It starts as it should.
• 1:10:58
  And with a good with that, with, you know, reintroducing the
• 1:11:03
  characters and seeing where they're up to and then them all
• 1:11:06
  joined together, it's quite efficient and a good, nice start
• 1:11:10
  to a series. I am going to go first of all
• 1:11:19
  for Lenny Henry, because I do think he gets a little bit sort
• 1:11:22
  of pushed to the side because it's the return of the Master.
• 1:11:25
  But I think he's a fantastic sort of foil for the Doctor and
• 1:11:28
  Co, a sort of believable modern villain who you could quite
• 1:11:31
  easily if you took The Master out of the story.
• 1:11:34
  I think he'd be a compelling enough villain to carry it
• 1:11:37
  forwards. Anyone expects him to.
• 1:11:40
  Play it to the extent that he did.
• 1:11:42
  No, but he's Henry. There was a series years ago
• 1:11:46
  where he played the headmaster of a school.
• 1:11:48
  I can't remember what it was called.
• 1:11:50
  And he was bloody brilliant in it.
• 1:11:52
  And for years, you know, around some of the late 90s, early
• 1:11:55
  noughties, people used to go, oh, Lenny Henry will be the new
• 1:11:58
  Doctor. Classic tabloid fodder.
• 1:12:00
  But I actually believe it. I actually believe he could play
• 1:12:02
  the role. Perhaps not now, but certainly
• 1:12:05
  back then he would have been a prime candidate.
• 1:12:07
  And not because he's just a funny.
• 1:12:11
  My first thing then is going to be the last 10 minutes of Spy
• 1:12:16
  for part one, starting with them leaving the house, the car
• 1:12:21
  chase, jumping into the plane, the master reveal and the
• 1:12:25
  cliffhanger. Because I cannot remember in the
• 1:12:28
  whole run of the new series where I had more fun watching
• 1:12:32
  something on broadcast. I just loved it.
• 1:12:35
  So, so yeah. So those two set pieces at the
• 1:12:37
  end of episode one. Yeah, I I'll go for the Cassavan
• 1:12:44
  as as an idea and as A at the home world as well.
• 1:12:48
  Just because of how alien they are.
• 1:12:51
  I think like because Cassavan and to an extent the rags from
• 1:12:56
  the ghost monument, they're both very alien.
• 1:12:58
  They're both a bit shit. They both sort of put you in the
• 1:13:01
  mind if like the William Hart and all sort of aliens that you
• 1:13:04
  used to get. Like that that we that's a
• 1:13:07
  backhanded compliment there. That weird, strange sharing
• 1:13:11
  world, No. I think, like, the cassava could
• 1:13:14
  have actually been very memorable if you'd have gone on
• 1:13:16
  to maybe play a big part in the end, in all evolve the form in a
• 1:13:21
  way. But I do.
• 1:13:24
  I like. I like them.
• 1:13:27
  Backhanded is the best we can hope for.
• 1:13:29
  Dylan. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:31
  I'm going to go for just the interplay between Jody and
• 1:13:35
  Sasha, particularly in the tower scene.
• 1:13:37
  I just think they've got great chemistry.
• 1:13:39
  I think it's electric. I could watch them.
• 1:13:42
  I could watch them just argue it out all day.
• 1:13:44
  I don't actually need the history and the explosions of
• 1:13:47
  the monsters. I've just watched those two
• 1:13:49
  locked in A room. I am going to say how the era
• 1:13:54
  continues to celebrate amazing women in history.
• 1:13:59
  And it's to this era's credit that we do that as often as we
• 1:14:03
  do and highlighting we've done, we spent so long highlighting
• 1:14:07
  fantastic men from history and finally we're shining a light on
• 1:14:11
  the women. And I'm really going to point
• 1:14:13
  out again that sequence where they're at the window and to me
• 1:14:16
  that that is an iconic shot in Doctor Who, three powerful women
• 1:14:22
  higher their powers coming together.
• 1:14:25
  I just think it's incredible for the girls, other girls.
• 1:14:30
  I'm actually, I've actually got a few now.
• 1:14:35
  Well, no, the first one's stupid, but I was going to say
• 1:14:38
  the Masters TARDIS flying through the air like the Wizard
• 1:14:41
  of Oz, but because it reminds me of Clara's Diner Anna Betta
• 1:14:45
  episode of that too. Just kidding.
• 1:14:47
  No, I was going to say maybe the Evil Dan music that's evil
• 1:14:50
  master music is probably like Segan's most famous and best
• 1:14:55
  piece of music. But I think it is only right
• 1:14:59
  maybe, that I say the snap joke just because it sums up all the
• 1:15:04
  hypocrisies of myself and don't say he fans worldwide.
• 1:15:10
  We love it for it and we're all capable of it.
• 1:15:15
  My next thing is going to be Chris Chibnall, which may sound
• 1:15:18
  like a bit of a cop out, but just for having the balls to
• 1:15:21
  sort of kick off the season like this.
• 1:15:23
  You know, it could. This could quite easily again be
• 1:15:25
  a season finale for holding his cards close to his chest in
• 1:15:29
  terms of the Master, in terms of the time that his child being
• 1:15:32
  set up so long ago. Anybody, whether you like the
• 1:15:35
  error or don't like it, he obviously had a plan.
• 1:15:38
  He he knew when he was writing The Timeless Child into the
• 1:15:42
  ghost monument several years before that this was going to be
• 1:15:46
  the story he was going. To tell.
• 1:15:48
  So yeah, he did. So it's it's.
• 1:15:51
  Not your time, Luke, Malloy let him told.
• 1:15:53
  Though. This is quite specifically about
• 1:15:55
  Chris Chibnall's balls and I've got to hand them to them.
• 1:16:00
  I'll be there massive. Well then my last is going to
• 1:16:05
  be. It's all about the money, money,
• 1:16:08
  money. I mean, this just looks
• 1:16:11
  spectacular. I've never in my wildest dreams
• 1:16:15
  figured the Doctor Who would look this expensive and it isn't
• 1:16:18
  really like me to go for something as shallow as that.
• 1:16:21
  But when the set pieces are as exciting as this, and and the
• 1:16:25
  money is so evident on the screen, I mean it looks
• 1:16:28
  incredible. I could enjoy this purely on its
• 1:16:31
  visual splendor alone. There's a lot of other reasons I
• 1:16:34
  like it, but that's one of the reasons why I would put this on
• 1:16:37
  time and again. Just looks great, yeah.
• 1:16:41
  I I I must agree. And if I could have a fourth
• 1:16:43
  it's the location management by disgraced talk to writer Gareth.
• 1:16:49
  He's still getting bored. We've we've done 9 and no one's
• 1:16:53
  mentioned the laser shoes, but. Yeah, that's true.
• 1:16:57
  But I can we have that as a joint 10th between all of us.
• 1:17:00
  We all love the laser. Shoes.
• 1:17:01
  The last person I figured was him to be doing a bonus one.
• 1:17:07
  Boys, that was just glorious. Thank you so much.
• 1:17:11
  I know where we're going next, but the listeners don't.
• 1:17:13
  Why don't you, Dylan, Tell them where we're heading next.
• 1:17:17
  Where are we doing another one for the three of us?
• 1:17:20
  Yeah, we've got a 2 parter at the end of series nine.
• 1:17:22
  Yes, of course we're doing. Ever episode of Doctor he we're
• 1:17:26
  doing Heaven Sense and Hell Bent.
• 1:17:29
  Which I still, I'm still never sure which ones.
• 1:17:32
  Which I I I've never been able to figure out.
• 1:17:36
  I just get them confused all the time.
• 1:17:38
  But I'm very excited to read. This Now there's a Gallifrey
• 1:17:40
  story for you. This time I'll be the one coming
• 1:17:44
  with the reservations against you, too, because I think Heaven
• 1:17:47
  said it is a marvelous piece of television, but I never want to
• 1:17:49
  watch it, and I want to get to the bottom of why.
• 1:17:52
  And I think Hell Bent is. The the second The Deer after
• 1:17:56
  the Wedding of River Song new series.
• 1:17:58
  So I'm excited to hear why that is not the case.
• 1:18:03
  Heaven sense the one with just Capaldi and the the Shroud,
• 1:18:06
  right? Yeah.
• 1:18:06
  That's right. OK, great.
• 1:18:07
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:18:08
  But that will just that that will just be us going by This is
• 1:18:10
  great, isn't? It yeah, I know.
• 1:18:13
  Or possibly going isn't this dull.
• 1:18:15
  There's not a lot going on. It's just that it'll probably
• 1:18:19
  just be really wanking for 45 minutes.
• 1:18:21
  That's that's how much I love that story.
• 1:18:23
  Great. You have the cameras on tonight.
• 1:18:28
  I'm not lasting 45 minutes. Hamster only fans coming soon
• 1:18:37
  boys, you're incredible. You have both run amazing
• 1:18:41
  podcast. Sorry, you have.
• 1:18:43
  You do brilliant when we come to give up.
• 1:18:48
  Thank you so much. It's been a hoot.
• 1:18:50
  It's been great. I hope it hasn't been too much
• 1:18:53
  to endure. I feel like I've still got
• 1:18:56
  there's still so much more to talk about, but we need to.
• 1:19:00
  We didn't. We didn't even touch on the
• 1:19:01
  Timeless Children, really. But it's not the time.
• 1:19:04
  No, exactly. We can.
• 1:19:05
  We can revisit that another time.
• 1:19:07
  We'll we'll do the second version of Ascension of the Time
• 1:19:11
  and the Timeless Children. No, do not put that in the time,
• 1:19:15
  please. I got it there.