Latest / The Two Authors’ Podcast / The Enneagram System with Claire Taylor

Transcript

The Enneagram System with Claire Taylor · The Two Authors’ Podcast

• 0:00
  It's not a cult, which I understand that saying it's not a cult maybe raises eyebrows that it is a cult.
• 0:06
  Only people running cults say this isn't a cult.
• 0:11
  Welcome to the Two Authors podcast, an entertaining chat show hosted by bestselling mystery and thriller authors Douglas Pratt and Nicholas Harvey
• 0:20
  in lively, humorous and informative conversation
• 0:24
  with distinguished guests who share their thoughts
• 0:26
  and experience about forging a successful author career.
• 0:32
  - Welcome to the show.
• 0:33
  How you doing, Duggy Dug?
• 0:35
  - I am doing good.
• 0:36
  I mean, run a little bit late
• 0:37
  because I looked at my time wrong,
• 0:38
  but otherwise I'm doing pretty good.
• 0:41
  (laughing)
• 0:41
  - I know you look like your hair's on fire if you had hair.
• 0:44
  - Yeah, I know I was coming in and I was like,
• 0:45
  oh, I thought it was Tim.
• 0:47
  I had looked last night at my,
• 0:49
  He always looked before and it just showed up in the grid.
• 0:52
  And I was like, oh, it's 10 o'clock.
• 0:53
  I didn't really zoom in to see.
• 0:55
  It was actually 9.30.
• 0:56
  So, what's going on?
• 0:56
  - Oh, yeah, that's all right.
• 0:57
  - All right, all worked out, all worked out.
• 1:00
  All right, the show brought to you as always
• 1:02
  by our friends at Velum.
• 1:05
  - Too love Velum.
• 1:06
  That's what I was doing this morning.
• 1:07
  I was working in Velum before.
• 1:08
  - Were you?
• 1:08
  - This morning.
• 1:09
  - That's why I was late.
• 1:10
  - I just did two little updates in my Cat Cromwell series.
• 1:16
  Boom, just going to Velum, make this more literally,
• 1:19
  just a couple of words in book one and book four
• 1:21
  that had come up that I needed to change.
• 1:24
  And output it from Valom, jump on KDP, upload it, boom.
• 1:28
  I mean, the whole process, making the changes,
• 1:31
  uploading them, everything.
• 1:32
  I mean, 10, maybe 12 minutes, it took me the whole thing.
• 1:36
  - It's so easy.
• 1:37
  You know, we just talked about drop cats here too.
• 1:40
  And that was what slowed me down
• 1:43
  was I had a drop cat pop up where I didn't need to.
• 1:45
  And it was so, it took me just a second to figure it out,
• 1:48
  development is so user friendly that it didn't take you long. And that says a lot because
• 1:52
  you know, I'm pretty slow.
• 1:55
  All right. Well, big thanks to Valence for supporting the show. We love you guys. Big
• 1:59
  thank you also to our Patreon supporters. Tricia, thank you for dropping in there. I
• 2:04
  see you in there, Tricia. You're lovely. And yeah, if you feel you get value for the show,
• 2:09
  pop over to Patreon. It's a free tier and a paid tier. The paid tier is three-fourths
• 2:13
  of nothing. And it's like three bucks a month, folks. And there's tons of extra stuff in
• 2:18
  there that you can enjoy. So, and it just supports the show, helps us, helps subsidize
• 2:23
  some of the costs towards the payment of the show.
• 2:26
  And continuing our May Podpal shout out to our besties over the wish I know then podcast
• 2:32
  for writers. We listened in to their most recent show.
• 2:35
  Great show.
• 2:36
  It was a really good show with their guest, Amy Robinson. They were talking about author,
• 2:41
  and balancing passion projects and mental rest.
• 2:44
  And this is an episode everyone should listen to.
• 2:47
  - It was very good.
• 2:47
  A lot about the just taking things at your own pace
• 2:52
  and not trying to listen to what everyone else
• 2:54
  is telling you to do, like podcasts like us.
• 2:56
  (laughing)
• 2:57
  - Yeah, what's hilarious is I listen
• 3:00
  when I'm at the gym, right?
• 3:01
  So I get on the elliptical and I fire up the podcast
• 3:03
  and I start listening.
• 3:05
  And our lovely friends, Jamie and Sarah.
• 3:08
  Now, if you need to be calm
• 3:10
  and you need someone to calm you.
• 3:11
  Hearing Sarah speak is the most calming, soft spoken,
• 3:15
  lovely, it's like it'll calm anyone.
• 3:18
  - She should do the ASMR, like talk to you real softly.
• 3:21
  Like it's time to go to bed, you know,
• 3:24
  just real soft like that.
• 3:25
  But then Jamie, Jamie's over there,
• 3:27
  this one about Jamie, she's like, "Goose poop."
• 3:29
  I just, "Goose poop."
• 3:32
  - Her y'all to minute ratio is definitely up there.
• 3:38
  And she's got that soft spoken Southern thing.
• 3:41
  So get this.
• 3:42
  So I'm like, when I really listen to their show,
• 3:44
  I basically, well, first of all,
• 3:46
  I'm gonna be on the elliptical 45 minutes
• 3:47
  and their show's about an hour, just over an hour.
• 3:50
  So I speed it up because they talk quite slowly.
• 3:53
  So it works out perfectly, right?
• 3:55
  Well, then they introduced this lovely lady, Amy Robinson,
• 3:59
  and she is like, when you speed her up to 1.3, she...
• 4:05
  - Well, she's from Jersey, I think.
• 4:06
  So she's not a stutter.
• 4:08
  She's like, she's just gonna talk about it.
• 4:10
  Yeah, she was a 90 to nothing, yeah.
• 4:12
  - She is going, like she is fifth gear flat out
• 4:16
  on the straight the whole time.
• 4:17
  So I've got this like squirrel on an IV of caffeine going
• 4:22
  with Amy's talking and then the girls sound like
• 4:25
  they're regular speed 'cause they're normally slow speaking.
• 4:28
  So I'm on the elliptical, I'm going, I'm like,
• 4:30
  oh yeah, she's positive, she's talking fast.
• 4:32
  We got it going, I'm working out here.
• 4:34
  I was like, boom, 30 minutes in, I'm like, bloody hell,
• 4:38
  I'm shagged out, I'm not gonna make another 15 minutes.
• 4:40
  So I just sped her up to like 1.35
• 4:43
  and then that (imitates explosion)
• 4:45
  brought me in the last 15 minutes.
• 4:46
  - Oh, you ran through her, yeah, wow.
• 4:49
  - Okay.
• 4:49
  - You could do that, I just, I'm sure Amy Robinson
• 4:52
  is not gonna come on our show now.
• 4:54
  - No, the caffeinated squirrel.
• 4:56
  - Although I do think I cannot wait to see Jamie again
• 5:00
  and give her a y'all--
• 5:02
  - What, are we gonna start counting?
• 5:03
  I mean, I do y'all a lot, but Jamie can drop y'all like there's no business. So anyway,
• 5:13
  you know, it was a great show. It really was. I didn't enjoy what she said. She had a lot
• 5:18
  of really great points. And it's a lot of what we talk about that whole year of knowledge
• 5:21
  may vary just because somebody tells you it's a good idea. It doesn't mean it's going to
• 5:25
  work for you. So I think it's well worth checking it out this week over there. I wish I'd known
• 5:30
  then.
• 5:30
  Our guest today is a fiction writer and she's also an author coach. She's an advanced certified instructor of the
• 5:36
  Inagram spectrum of personality styles and an accredited
• 5:40
  Practitioner of the integrative Inagram say that again. No, no, I'm not saying that again
• 5:47
  Her name is Claire Taylor. We met her a couple of weeks ago at a little author event. She's a really smart
• 5:53
  Art very smart or so much smarter
• 5:57
  So we're going to raise the IQ of the show with Claire at the moment she comes on.
• 6:01
  We'll chat with her shortly. But first, we have a listener question from our recent guest,
• 6:04
  the lovely Jennifer Hilt. Jennifer Hilt, thank you so much for sticking around with us on the show.
• 6:14
  It's always good when Doug puts his foot in the mouth, right before the countdown ends
• 6:19
  for us to go live. So that's a perfect intro to this. So Jennifer, you kindly stuck around to
• 6:25
  ask us a listener question. What do you got for us?
• 6:29
  Yeah, you guys have been great. My question to you guys is, what do you love or not love or are just curious about the amnesia
• 6:37
  trope?
• 6:38
  What's that? I don't remember what you said.
• 6:43
  He had time to think about it for a second. So
• 6:47
  you guys are bad, bad, bad, bad.
• 6:48
  Told you he's got a dumb answer.
• 6:50
  I want to say it's it's a very often used like how many I mean I can't think of a
• 6:57
  Single 80s TV show that didn't have somebody get amnesia in it, but at the same time
• 7:01
  I always enjoyed it when they did so it feels like it's kind of a fun
• 7:05
  But often overused trope so I haven't tried to use it yet at all. I have used a disorientation
• 7:13
  So I'd like put my person in a disoriented
• 7:16
  situation so he is completely out of sorts, but I have not used amnesia yet, but I mean
• 7:22
  I'm not opposed to it at the same time. So what do you think Nick?
• 7:26
  I think it is heavily overused and overused as an excuse a lot. I think it's an easy cop
• 7:33
  out to create a situation. Honestly, I think when it's used in a clever way, then it can
• 7:40
  be really cool. But the problem is it's because it's overused, you've got to be really, really
• 7:45
  clever about it. So I haven't used it as such, but I've kind of used it because in my Cat
• 7:53
  Cromwell book, she has a neurological condition where memories drop out. And I did a lot of
• 7:58
  studying on how memory works. And I've always been fascinated. To me, it's an amazing system.
• 8:04
  And you think about it. What it should be is if you've witnessed something and you remember,
• 8:10
  Why can't we remember everything?
• 8:11
  So it should be just this big file cabinet of stuff.
• 8:15
  I have a neurological issue myself,
• 8:17
  but it's different from what I gave her.
• 8:19
  But I wanted to write a character
• 8:21
  that had something going on.
• 8:23
  And because I was fascinated with memory,
• 8:25
  I gave her this one where she has memories that drop out,
• 8:28
  like a particular event will drop out of her memory.
• 8:31
  And it doesn't actually leave her memory the access to it.
• 8:34
  And it's described in the books as there's a little clock
• 8:37
  at the top, which is the short-term memory.
• 8:38
  and then you've got the basement where all the files are kept with all the details.
• 8:41
  The clerk runs up and down stairs.
• 8:43
  That's when you're like, when someone says, "Oh, you remember on this TV show?"
• 8:46
  And you're like, "Oh, wait a second.
• 8:47
  That had the so-and-so."
• 8:49
  Well, that's the clerk runs down and gets a picture of the actress, comes up, shows
• 8:53
  it to you, waves it in your face.
• 8:54
  And you're like, "Oh, I remember now.
• 8:55
  It was so-and-so."
• 8:56
  And that's in a very simplistic way.
• 8:58
  That's kind of how recalling memories can work.
• 9:02
  Well, her clerk is on tea break and won't go downstairs and go get anything for a little
• 9:06
  bit.
• 9:07
  And so she uses photographs as a method of recalling these memories.
• 9:12
  So I thought that was really interesting.
• 9:14
  It's a little different from amnesia.
• 9:16
  But to properly answer your question, I think it's overdone, as Doug said.
• 9:19
  I think when it's done really well, I think it can be still interesting.
• 9:23
  I will say, I'm reading, I was just telling Jen before, while you were off, I was reading
• 9:28
  Project Hail Mary, which starts with the main character having amnesia and waking up on
• 9:33
  a spaceship.
• 9:34
  So to me, it's kind of neat if you can deliver it and use it as a way to hamper your main
• 9:40
  character, I think.
• 9:41
  So, yeah, but like Nick said, I think the way Nick did it with his character has been
• 9:45
  really well done.
• 9:47
  It's not quite the same as Amnesia, but it definitely kind of touches on some of that
• 9:51
  ability.
• 9:53
  Yeah, it's a variation.
• 9:54
  My other pet hate is when people are knocked out.
• 9:57
  It's like they just, even in really serious, well-made movies, they'll just bonk them on
• 10:02
  the head and they go unconscious.
• 10:04
  And they're conveniently unconscious for the rest of the show, right?
• 10:08
  Like for the next 20 minutes of that scene.
• 10:10
  If you are unconscious for 20 minutes, you have very serious brain trauma.
• 10:15
  So most people who are knocked unconscious go out and are out for seconds.
• 10:21
  Anything beyond, like when you get into measuring minutes of being unconscious, it means serious
• 10:26
  brain trauma.
• 10:28
  There's exceptions in all sorts.
• 10:29
  But it's the whole, they just knock them conveniently over the head and they go out.
• 10:33
  No, normally when you knock someone over the head like that, they go, "Ow, you..."
• 10:37
  Yeah.
• 10:38
  And there's expletives at you and scream at you.
• 10:41
  And don't go unconscious.
• 10:43
  Just so you know, brain trauma was my wrestling name back in the '80s.
• 10:47
  And on that note, thank you, Jennifer.
• 10:49
  [LAUGHS]
• 10:49
  Thank you.
• 10:51
  We'll end it with a laugh and exit with a laugh.
• 10:53
  Thanks for a great question.
• 10:54
  We really appreciate it.
• 10:55
  [MUSIC PLAYING]
• 10:58
  Claire Taylor, welcome to this week's show.
• 11:00
  Thank you so much for joining us.
• 11:02
  We had the pleasure of meeting you in person a couple of weeks ago now, which was great.
• 11:07
  So how are you doing?
• 11:08
  I'm doing great today.
• 11:09
  Thanks so much for having me.
• 11:10
  I'm excited to come and chat.
• 11:12
  It's pretty impressive that we met you in person and you're like, "Oh, sure.
• 11:16
  I'll come torment myself with you two assholes."
• 11:19
  I'm notorious for terrible judgment.
• 11:23
  So is my wife.
• 11:25
  Yeah, yeah.
• 11:26
  Evidence we're presenting here today.
• 11:28
  All right.
• 11:29
  Let's get this thing going.
• 11:30
  Give us a little bit of background on how you got,
• 11:33
  when you first started writing,
• 11:34
  how you got involved in writing when you were published,
• 11:36
  and also when you were branched out into the author coaching.
• 11:39
  - So I have been writing stories
• 11:41
  since I was a very little lonely kid,
• 11:43
  as many authors have started in those early days,
• 11:46
  but I started writing a lot more in high school,
• 11:49
  just decided kind of, you know,
• 11:51
  I was gonna start writing a book,
• 11:52
  and so I started doing that during my free time.
• 11:55
  I did have friends, but they weren't that interesting.
• 11:58
  So I wrote a book instead.
• 11:59
  Yeah.
• 12:00
  Then I went to school for creative writing.
• 12:04
  I went to four years at Texas State and didn't really know what I was going to do with that.
• 12:09
  I figured I'd probably end up teaching, which I eventually did.
• 12:11
  But in the meantime, I was writing on the side as much as I could when you're a very
• 12:16
  poorly paid teacher in Texas and you have to make ends meet.
• 12:20
  And then I published my first book sort of through one of those hybrid vanity presses
• 12:25
  back in like 2012.
• 12:27
  It's not very good.
• 12:28
  been unpublished, but I published through them.
• 12:31
  And it took seven years from when I started writing it until I published it.
• 12:35
  And that was a big experience.
• 12:37
  And then my next one was two years later.
• 12:38
  And that's when I went into indie publishing in 2014.
• 12:42
  And so I figured out, oh, I can publish this through KDP.
• 12:46
  I can create the layout and everything myself.
• 12:49
  And so it was very much that bootstrapping.
• 12:51
  And then quit my full-time job in 2015 to write.
• 12:56
  I did not have the income to back that up.
• 13:00
  (laughing)
• 13:01
  I just rage quit.
• 13:03
  (laughing)
• 13:05
  I said, all right.
• 13:05
  - French quitting is the best, isn't it?
• 13:07
  Oh, like, you know.
• 13:08
  - Yeah, yeah, it's very good.
• 13:11
  - Especially teaching.
• 13:12
  You were teaching?
• 13:12
  What level are you teaching?
• 13:14
  - Well, at this point, I was mostly in the administration.
• 13:17
  - Oh, okay, so it was an office rant.
• 13:19
  - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:20
  Well, yeah, I was doing the job of people
• 13:22
  who paid more than me without getting paid
• 13:24
  or getting the title or anything.
• 13:25
  And I was like, so I would like a raise in a anyway.
• 13:29
  They said no.
• 13:30
  And so I said, OK, bye.
• 13:31
  And I left and I did a lot of editing.
• 13:34
  Was it more dramatic than that?
• 13:36
  As I was I want to vision you.
• 13:37
  I hope so.
• 13:38
  I'm visualizing.
• 13:39
  Yeah.
• 13:41
  I love good rage quit stories anyway.
• 13:45
  We're like, you know, somebody.
• 13:46
  Yeah, but I waited until I was outside of the building.
• 13:48
  That's important when you work with children.
• 13:50
  So, you know.
• 13:51
  [LAUGHTER]
• 13:52
  They don't get paid more than you.
• 13:53
  They don't let me do that.
• 13:54
  They don't let me do that. They're like, "Nah, you don't need to work with kids. That's okay."
• 13:59
  Completely different story when I rage quit my indoor soccer team. That was a much bigger spectacle.
• 14:05
  Yeah, so I went and I had editing under my belt. I had been an in-house editor at a romance publishing
• 14:10
  company before I went into teaching, like between college and teaching. So I had some freelance
• 14:15
  work that I was doing to kind of make ends meet. And then I just slowly over the next few years was
• 14:20
  was like, "Oh, I think I can phase out editing and just start publishing."
• 14:24
  So that's what I did.
• 14:26
  My first big series was called Jessica Christ.
• 14:28
  It's a satire about God's daughter in Texas.
• 14:31
  Seven book series, took about five years to write.
• 14:35
  And they didn't hang you.
• 14:36
  That's pretty impressive.
• 14:37
  I was going to say, you weren't struck by lightning.
• 14:39
  No one makes you.
• 14:40
  That's good.
• 14:41
  I mean, yeah, it's amazing to this day.
• 14:45
  I'm just waiting for that knock on my door.
• 14:48
  more so today than 10 years ago.
• 14:50
  Yeah, probably so.
• 14:51
  And so, yeah, that was kind of the comedy that I went into.
• 14:55
  I wrote "Satire" first, and then I had a comedy series,
• 14:59
  like "Buddy Cop," paranormal "Buddy Cop" comedy series,
• 15:02
  "Kill Haven Police."
• 15:04
  And then I got into "Cosymistory," paranormal "Cosymistory"
• 15:07
  in 2018, and just that kind of took off,
• 15:09
  and I kept writing it 'cause it's fun,
• 15:11
  and I get to write about animals,
• 15:13
  and so it's a little bit more therapeutic
• 15:14
  than writing about tuna shifters or whatever I had
• 15:17
  and kill haven police.
• 15:18
  - Tuna, shifter.
• 15:21
  - Wow, yeah.
• 15:21
  - You start to run out of ideas
• 15:24
  and you need different kinds of police encounters.
• 15:28
  - Like they turn into an actual tuna fish
• 15:31
  or like a can of tuna.
• 15:32
  'Cause you never know in this world
• 15:34
  of weird shifting things.
• 15:37
  - I think it was a tuna shifter pretending to be a siren
• 15:41
  for sex work, yeah.
• 15:43
  So anyway, I wanted something a little bit quaint-er.
• 15:47
  And so I went into the paranormal cozy mystery.
• 15:50
  - Then a sexy tuna, okay, that's fair, okay.
• 15:54
  - That's kind of it.
• 15:55
  And then I've been writing a lot of paranormal cozy mystery.
• 15:57
  I write as Nova Nelson.
• 15:58
  I have the East Wind Witches series.
• 16:00
  I have three different series within that world.
• 16:03
  And then I also started writing crime fiction
• 16:05
  just 'cause I was like,
• 16:06
  if I'm gonna consume this much information
• 16:08
  about serial killers, I need to like get it out.
• 16:10
  - Get it out less.
• 16:11
  - Get it out less, you can focus that intent.
• 16:13
  Yeah, that's fair.
• 16:14
  - And when did the coaching come in?
• 16:17
  So the coaching that sort of arose organically,
• 16:19
  maybe in about 2018, I think it was,
• 16:22
  I got really into the Enneagram,
• 16:25
  which I'm sure we'll talk all about.
• 16:27
  And I used it mostly for writing characters
• 16:29
  to help me align their motivations.
• 16:32
  And so I picked that up.
• 16:33
  Maybe it was around book four in the Jessica Christ series.
• 16:36
  I was like, I gotta get to know her more.
• 16:37
  She's becoming an adult.
• 16:38
  I need to know like who she is.
• 16:41
  And so I started working with the Enneagram on that.
• 16:43
  And then when I would chat with my friends,
• 16:44
  Since I had all of my storytelling and editing experience, I would just chat with my author
• 16:50
  friends to help them kind of get unstuck in some of their plots.
• 16:54
  And I just kept going, "Well, what is their core motivation?
• 16:58
  What are—who are they?"
• 16:59
  And from that, I ended up doing a lot of those calls with friends, and I was like, "Maybe
• 17:03
  they should just offer this as like a service."
• 17:06
  And that's sort of how the coaching started.
• 17:08
  It started with the story coaching, and then people kept going, "So if this applies to
• 17:12
  characters, does this also apply to me?"
• 17:14
  like, "Well, yeah." And so then I got more into the career coaching.
• 17:18
  Very introspective.
• 17:22
  Yeah. And so then I started working with Enneagram and the author career and author motivation
• 17:29
  and really went all in and got all of these certifications and everything so that I could
• 17:33
  better coach people and better help people with that. So then I've just been doing that
• 17:38
  sense because it is sort of a unique approach to coaching. And so I do that in a right fiction.
• 17:44
  those are my days.
• 17:45
  Fantastic.
• 17:47
  And people can find you at Liberated Writer is your coaching services and you have courses
• 17:52
  and what have you there.
• 17:53
  So, let's talk about this in-eagram business.
• 17:56
  I took mine as you've seen.
• 17:59
  So, we'll, Beck Assign did this with Clifton Strengths to Doug, so it's my turn to get
• 18:04
  pins pushed in me.
• 18:05
  So, we'll go over that in a minute.
• 18:07
  But tell the listeners a little bit about what an in-eagram is.
• 18:11
  So the Enneagram, Ennea is just the Greek root for nine.
• 18:15
  Gram is just a shape.
• 18:16
  So it's just nine types that are defined
• 18:20
  by their core motivations.
• 18:22
  So that would be a core fear and core desire pair.
• 18:24
  And from those core motivations arise various cognitive,
• 18:30
  emotional, and behavioral schema or patterns
• 18:33
  that tend to arise from those fears,
• 18:35
  including attentional patterns, which
• 18:36
  is why it's so useful to talk about now.
• 18:39
  and we're all thinking about where our attention's going,
• 18:41
  the attention economy, and how our attention
• 18:44
  sort of naturally flows towards our writing
• 18:45
  and our creativity.
• 18:46
  So it helps us understand how our core fear,
• 18:50
  which hides in plain sight, and says,
• 18:54
  "Hey, I'm a very logical approach to life,
• 18:56
  so don't even question me."
• 18:58
  How our core fear is diverting or fracturing our attention
• 19:03
  and how it's leading to certain patterns,
• 19:05
  certain subconscious patterns,
• 19:07
  that we haven't noticed that keep getting us the same result
• 19:10
  that we don't like.
• 19:11
  So we can really start to dig into that fear,
• 19:15
  find the ways that it's showing up,
• 19:17
  the ways it's talking to us and misleading us.
• 19:20
  And then immediately we start to see a whole new world
• 19:23
  of options of things we can try for our author career.
• 19:27
  So that's where it's good for the author career,
• 19:29
  but it's really just like these nine profiles.
• 19:32
  I tend to just focus on the core fear
• 19:34
  'cause core fear and desire kind of two sides
• 19:35
  at the same coin, right?
• 19:36
  So for type three, the fear is being worthless or without value,
• 19:41
  and the desire is to have worth and value.
• 19:44
  So it's the same thing, but I think the fear tends
• 19:46
  to be a little bit more easier to grab onto for people
• 19:49
  to understand the type.
• 19:50
  So really looking at those nine core fears,
• 19:53
  and they are social fears.
• 19:54
  It's not like a fear of snakes or a fear of,
• 19:57
  I don't know, clowns or anything like that.
• 19:59
  It's a fear of basically being expelled from the group.
• 20:03
  So it's these social fears that we have that drive us.
• 20:07
  - We just talked a little bit about Becca Simon and her
• 20:08
  and the Clifton Strengths that I did last year.
• 20:11
  But so how does that kind of compare to the,
• 20:13
  how do they differ?
• 20:14
  How do they compare, I guess,
• 20:16
  the INE, RAM and the Clifton Strengths?
• 20:18
  - They work really well together.
• 20:19
  So Becca and I do a lot of work together
• 20:22
  where she has these calls high level on her Patreon
• 20:24
  that'll jump on and we'll look at a specific strength
• 20:27
  and how each of the INE and gram types
• 20:29
  influences that strength.
• 20:31
  because the fear, right?
• 20:33
  If your core fear is working,
• 20:35
  you know, sort of beneath the surface,
• 20:37
  it can make those strengths go into what Becca calls
• 20:40
  their basements, right?
• 20:41
  As opposed to their balconies.
• 20:42
  And so a lot of the times there's strength work you can do,
• 20:45
  which is really about, you know,
• 20:46
  sort of leveraging your top strengths and optimizing those.
• 20:50
  And then there's, sometimes you hit a wall with that.
• 20:54
  And it's because that core fear is not letting you do the thing.
• 20:57
  And so it's this underneath sort of driver that can shape it.
• 21:02
  So that's why different strengths can look so different in people.
• 21:06
  I mean, besides just the complexity of strengths, which is great,
• 21:08
  but it can look so different in people
• 21:11
  because what they are trying to accomplish with that strength looks different.
• 21:16
  Are they trying to get praise from that strength?
• 21:19
  Are they trying to get a power up position from that strength?
• 21:22
  Are they trying to satisfy some sort of unquenchable
• 21:27
  desire for stimulation with that strength?
• 21:30
  So that's how it can kind of,
• 21:31
  the Enneagram kind of filters through the strengths
• 21:34
  and can really help you leverage them
• 21:36
  and can really make them go haywire.
• 21:40
  - So side note, also, can you imagine, Nick,
• 21:42
  a coaching session with Claire and Becca at the same time?
• 21:46
  - I was just thinking of the same thing.
• 21:48
  We were just in the same room with them
• 21:49
  with another group of authors.
• 21:50
  And when they both look at you at the same time,
• 21:52
  like what what what have they seen?
• 21:54
  What have they seen now?
• 21:55
  They're making notes.
• 21:56
  Stop making notes.
• 21:57
  They're probably texting over there.
• 21:58
  Did you hear what he said?
• 21:59
  Oh, that's a paper right there.
• 22:03
  Yeah, our chat is just a bunch of red flags.
• 22:06
  Yeah.
• 22:06
  Red flags to each other.
• 22:11
  They probably see it like, you know, in video games
• 22:13
  when you see somebody is like injured and the bar is going down.
• 22:16
  They just see the red flags over our head.
• 22:18
  Yeah, I see that from over here.
• 22:20
  Oh, my God.
• 22:21
  Just used emoji, just the red flag.
• 22:23
  The red flag, yes.
• 22:25
  No, that would be like, I just,
• 22:26
  I think that would be very eye-opening
• 22:28
  to have the two really big brains
• 22:31
  telling me what I'm doing wrong.
• 22:33
  So.
• 22:34
  We look at these things, they're a test, right?
• 22:35
  I tend to look at it like I'm doing a test.
• 22:38
  Okay, yeah, but you get the results
• 22:40
  and then it's, that's fine.
• 22:41
  But it's, what do you do with the results afterwards?
• 22:43
  Which we'll talk about in a little bit.
• 22:45
  So let's do this thing.
• 22:47
  So you've got my IEQ 9 test results.
• 22:51
  So obviously when you do this on a call,
• 22:53
  you go far more in depth.
• 22:55
  But let's hit the big ticket item.
• 22:58
  - Yeah, let's roll with Nick.
• 22:59
  Let's talk about it.
• 22:59
  - See if he can send me other than crying.
• 23:01
  (laughing)
• 23:03
  Get ready to take over, Doug.
• 23:05
  - That's no problem.
• 23:05
  I'm counting on you to be all like, oh no.
• 23:08
  - I did give it, when Beco was doing it,
• 23:11
  it's Clifton strength.
• 23:12
  I was like chirping in the background,
• 23:14
  adding little, unuseful bits and pieces.
• 23:16
  So I deserve it now from him.
• 23:18
  - Yeah, I mean, it's bad practice for me
• 23:20
  to send people crying.
• 23:22
  It's just not good for return customers.
• 23:24
  So I do try not to do that.
• 23:26
  - I think it generates more work.
• 23:28
  You know that they're going out the door.
• 23:30
  You're like, I can fix that.
• 23:31
  I can help you with that.
• 23:32
  (laughing)
• 23:33
  - Right, like a vacuum sales person.
• 23:35
  Just dump the dirt on the vacuum.
• 23:36
  - Dump it down like I can clean it up.
• 23:40
  - And now a quick word from this episode sponsor.
• 23:43
  This year, you and I are both going
• 23:45
  to the mega conference, "Orthon Nation."
• 23:48
  And you know what I'm really excited about?
• 23:51
  - I know what I'm really excited about.
• 23:52
  I'm excited to hear from Andy Weir.
• 23:54
  This is like the-- - Isn't that crazy?
• 23:56
  - He's huge.
• 23:58
  Martian Project Hail Mary.
• 23:59
  It's the biggest movie out there right now.
• 24:02
  It's a great book.
• 24:03
  I just cannot wait.
• 24:04
  - Now back to the show.
• 24:06
  - So I do wanna say that I have your consent
• 24:09
  to have this conversation recorded,
• 24:11
  But at any point, if you're like, okay, that's enough, that's fine.
• 24:14
  Consent can be withdrawn.
• 24:16
  So you tested.
• 24:21
  So Nick, you tested as an SX eight.
• 24:24
  So that would be your subtype.
• 24:26
  I felt short of a nine.
• 24:27
  I was going for nine, man.
• 24:28
  I could, you can't tell.
• 24:29
  Oh no, SX eight sounds pretty cool.
• 24:31
  So that sounds pretty.
• 24:33
  SX does sound cool.
• 24:35
  It's the sexual subtype.
• 24:36
  So we'll talk more about that.
• 24:38
  Yes.
• 24:40
  The sexiest eight.
• 24:42
  Look, I mean, this is being honest.
• 24:44
  It's that accent.
• 24:45
  He is sexy.
• 24:46
  OK, so let's just start with the eight, what the eight is.
• 24:49
  So in the IEQ 9, it's called the active controller,
• 24:52
  but most of the time it's called the challenger.
• 24:54
  And so the eight is really looking
• 24:56
  at autonomy, independence, power, strength.
• 25:01
  That is what the eight's filter looks for.
• 25:04
  So each type is sometimes called a lens.
• 25:06
  And through that lens, you filter different information,
• 25:10
  There's way too much information in the world to filter it all into your brain.
• 25:14
  We would just be catatonic.
• 25:15
  So, we have these perceptual filters that decide what's relevant and what's not.
• 25:21
  So, relevancy, something we all have to think about when we're running ads, but also it
• 25:25
  applies to our Enneagram type.
• 25:27
  So, what is relevant?
• 25:28
  Well, it sorts based on what's relevant to that core fear.
• 25:31
  So the core fear of the eight is to be harmed or controlled.
• 25:34
  And so the eight filters information based on, is this going to allow me to have that
• 25:39
  independence or is this going to be something that starts to control me?
• 25:43
  And so with that, looking at the author life, a lot of the times, eights end up in independent
• 25:49
  publishing because can you imagine trying to work with a publisher who's trying to control
• 25:53
  your story?
• 25:54
  That's really just not going to work for an eight.
• 25:57
  It's going to be very frustrating and it may spur some of that heat, that aggression of
• 26:02
  the eight to come out.
• 26:04
  So, AIDS can be very independent.
• 26:06
  Also, when we're looking at things like fandoms or even just your following, AIDS can sometimes
• 26:12
  feel like their fans are trying to control them with expectations.
• 26:17
  And that can be something that AIDS start to rebel against.
• 26:20
  So the "A" really has to keep that eye on, "What am I perceiving as an attempt to control
• 26:26
  my autonomy and to control me?
• 26:27
  And is that actually it?"
• 26:29
  So a lot of the times, AIDS end up doing things all on their own.
• 26:33
  And if someone shows up and says, "Let me help you," for some 8s, that can feel like
• 26:37
  an attempt to take over.
• 26:39
  And so that's like an example of where that 8 lens may be narrowing your options.
• 26:46
  So a lot of the times, 8s will hit this wall in success, and they go, "I can't get past
• 26:51
  this point."
• 26:52
  And it's because they're not seeing that they need to build a collaboration, because that
• 26:57
  collaboration, which Nick, you're already doing because you have this podcast with Doug,
• 27:02
  so you're already expanding a little bit.
• 27:04
  But it's also that one-to-one,
• 27:06
  like you're gonna trust one person.
• 27:07
  Like the SX8, which SX is just a subtype,
• 27:10
  does have like my people,
• 27:13
  but it's a small group of my people.
• 27:15
  And those people get your full protection.
• 27:17
  The way you would protect yourself, you protect them.
• 27:20
  And so as long as they don't,
• 27:22
  knifey in the back and then it's over.
• 27:23
  The eight is not super forgiving on a blind side.
• 27:26
  - No way.
• 27:28
  (laughing)
• 27:30
  It's possible what you've said so far might be accurate.
• 27:33
  I'm not saying it is, but it might be.
• 27:36
  So the eight is just a very intense type.
• 27:40
  And one of the defining qualities of the eight
• 27:42
  that I think is really interesting is the vice.
• 27:44
  So every type has a vice, and we can talk about Doug's as well
• 27:47
  and the spirit of fairness.
• 27:48
  We can talk about mine as well.
• 27:50
  I've got multiple vices.
• 27:51
  We can all talk to our vice.
• 27:53
  We're nearing this down to one.
• 27:54
  OK.
• 27:55
  I collect vices.
• 27:56
  Like some people collect baseball cards.
• 27:58
  Is this your one?
• 28:00
  And actually, Doug, that is a result of your vice.
• 28:03
  So we can go into that.
• 28:05
  [LAUGHTER]
• 28:08
  I am very aware, so yes.
• 28:10
  Yes.
• 28:11
  So the vice of the eight is called lust.
• 28:14
  But it's really just this intensity that's brought to things.
• 28:17
  So when you're doing something, you're doing it very intensely
• 28:20
  as an eight.
• 28:21
  It's the all or nothing.
• 28:22
  It's the hot or cold.
• 28:24
  And so that can lead to some problems
• 28:27
  if you pick up a project and you've got that lust, that intensity, it can become an obsession,
• 28:33
  right?
• 28:34
  And it can become this thing that it's really hard to do just a little bit of, to let go
• 28:38
  of it all.
• 28:39
  It's just intense energy that the eight brings.
• 28:43
  And so this can be really helpful to an author career when you have a book and you're like,
• 28:47
  "I'm going to throw everything into this and I'm going to get this project done."
• 28:51
  It can be a huge benefit to have that, but that intensity.
• 28:56
  Is this like the thing where he said the other day that he doesn't take a bathroom break because he's so focused?
• 29:03
  I might have been a hint to the type yes, I was just wondering like he said that the other day I'm like, huh, that's an issue
• 29:10
  Yeah, I'll sit here crossing my knees and hopping tapping my feet for like ages
• 29:16
  And that's also like it sometimes will be like I don't know why everyone's so scared of me, you know like
• 29:22
  (laughing)
• 29:26
  I feel like I'm pretty kind,
• 29:28
  and you know, but the energy of the aid
• 29:31
  is just bringing this intensity.
• 29:32
  So that's that less energy.
• 29:34
  It can sometimes be used defensively, right?
• 29:37
  I'm gonna overwhelm them so that they can't take a hit at me,
• 29:40
  but it becomes just a pattern that just, you know,
• 29:42
  you're just bringing a lot of intensity
• 29:44
  with you wherever you go.
• 29:46
  And people pick up on that.
• 29:48
  - Smoldering intensity, I think, that's it.
• 29:50
  - Smoldering, yes.
• 29:51
  - You're bringing the smolder.
• 29:55
  - That sounds a little nice, I suppose.
• 29:58
  (laughing)
• 29:59
  Rather than this intimidating guy.
• 30:01
  - You know, so some of the work of the eight
• 30:02
  is just to realize you're bringing a lot
• 30:04
  and it's just about learning to kind of pull back
• 30:07
  a little bit and that's really painful at first
• 30:10
  for the eight because it's like,
• 30:12
  but it feels so good to go in guns blazing.
• 30:15
  Like it feels so good.
• 30:17
  - Or just to go to the bathroom.
• 30:18
  - Well, yes.
• 30:19
  - Just to stop and go to the loo.
• 30:21
  Yeah, there is some relief in pulling back just a little bit.
• 30:29
  Less pressure on certain parts. I don't know. I'm just like thinking less.
• 30:33
  Yeah. So we were chatting before we started off air a little bit and you were saying the
• 30:38
  Enneagram, when you're taking it, it helps sometimes for us older folks to think about
• 30:45
  yourself a little bit younger and take the test in that light. We had this conversation
• 30:52
  earlier, not before I took the test. One thing that does ring true, it feels like it's really
• 30:58
  accurate for me probably 30 years ago. I feel like I've softened the edges in a lot of ways.
• 31:07
  I'll credit most of that to my wife, Cheryl, because she's the loveliest human being in the
• 31:12
  world and I watch her being the loveliest human being in the world and a little bit rubs off on me.
• 31:17
  So I think that has helped a lot. And then relationships like with Doug, who's just laid
• 31:21
  back as a get. So it helps, right? So I feel like, and plus being a little bit introspective at some
• 31:28
  point, you kind of go, "Why is all these things going wrong?" So maybe I'm doing something wrong.
• 31:34
  So anyway, I feel like I have softened the edges of some of that.
• 31:38
  Yeah, absolutely. And this is so that Enneagram gives us kind of the general description and what
• 31:42
  it describes, especially in the report, tends to be kind of the average levels of development. So
• 31:48
  each type has nine levels of development. And they're sometimes referred to as unhealthy, average,
• 31:55
  and healthy, but we can kind of remove the stigma and just say like their levels of integration,
• 32:00
  like how much have you integrated all the parts of yourself. And so you have a pretty high level
• 32:06
  of integration, Nick. So some of these patterns that become a real issue, you've probably
• 32:12
  worked through, right? When people, you know, you don't have to do any grand work to work
• 32:17
  on these patterns. You can go to any, like, therapist that's worth the money or a friend
• 32:22
  who's insightful, and they'll start to point these things out, and you'll go, "Oh, yeah,
• 32:25
  I do notice that about myself." So introspection goes a long way. But yeah, we look generally
• 32:30
  when we're taking these tests or when we're having a hard time typing someone because
• 32:34
  maybe they have done a lot of development work.
• 32:36
  We look at about 25 to 30 age range
• 32:40
  because 25, that personality is really starting to set in,
• 32:45
  but we have the least amount of self-awareness
• 32:47
  that we'll ever have in our adult life.
• 32:49
  So those patterns really start to cause problems.
• 32:52
  So if you're like, I don't really know,
• 32:54
  if you look back between 25 and 30,
• 32:56
  you'll start to recognize the nature of the problems
• 32:59
  you kept running into again and again.
• 33:01
  And that can help us understand what that sort of core type is.
• 33:06
  So a slight sidebar here.
• 33:07
  So when you walk in, like when we met the other week,
• 33:12
  you walk into a room and group of people,
• 33:13
  and there's several of the people there, like Doug and I,
• 33:15
  that you hadn't actually met before.
• 33:17
  Does your brain automatically start building a number?
• 33:21
  Thank goodness, no.
• 33:23
  No, I really like to not think about it
• 33:25
  when it's not time for it.
• 33:27
  Like, because I do this all of the time.
• 33:30
  I mean, sometimes it'll jump out to me and I'll be like, whoa,
• 33:32
  like I had Doug's number pegged.
• 33:35
  I knew it.
• 33:36
  (laughing)
• 33:39
  I would have put money on it.
• 33:40
  Like get me in the prediction markets on that.
• 33:43
  - I try to be as predictable as I possibly can.
• 33:46
  - He's an open book.
• 33:47
  - And actually, you know, sometimes if I'm bored,
• 33:50
  I'll start to start to wonder about it.
• 33:52
  Nick, I think I had your subtype, like your instinct pegged,
• 33:55
  but I wasn't sure between a few.
• 33:57
  And I think that goes to, you know,
• 33:58
  of just some of the work you've done.
• 34:00
  I could tell the intensity, but I was like,
• 34:02
  I don't know if this is like a intensity
• 34:05
  of the sort of mind focused intensity,
• 34:07
  or if this is like an eight intensity,
• 34:09
  or if this is like a passion of four intensity.
• 34:11
  So I was not really sure.
• 34:12
  - Also that British intensity he has anyway, so.
• 34:15
  - Yeah, yeah, the 10th type British.
• 34:18
  - 10th type British.
• 34:20
  - Don't know what you're talking about.
• 34:21
  (laughing)
• 34:23
  What are we discussing here?
• 34:24
  We shouldn't be talking about feelings, my God.
• 34:26
  - Yeah, that's right.
• 34:27
  Fear of impropriety.
• 34:30
  - We've got plenty of that.
• 34:31
  We have good reason to fear our impropriety
• 34:35
  over in the UK, I think.
• 34:37
  - Yeah, more every day being revealed.
• 34:40
  So that's, yeah, I would say that,
• 34:43
  I try not to, it jumps out at me sometimes
• 34:46
  and I'm like, I have my suspicions,
• 34:47
  but I've been wrong before
• 34:49
  and there are a lot of reasons for it
• 34:50
  'cause sometimes what we are internally,
• 34:54
  we learn not to express that
• 34:55
  or we're in a culture that doesn't let us express it
• 34:58
  a particular way and sort of offers us
• 35:01
  a different avenue of expression.
• 35:02
  So like, you know, my type, I'm a type one,
• 35:06
  but my expression tends to be more seven-ish,
• 35:09
  like let's have a good time, let's joke around.
• 35:11
  And so it may be hard to type me.
• 35:13
  Also, I have sort of some eight intensity.
• 35:16
  So people will sometimes think I'm an eight,
• 35:18
  but women are often mistyped as eights,
• 35:20
  people of color often mistyped as eights.
• 35:22
  Anyone who is actually having to push against
• 35:25
  the sort of social oppression of any kind tends to look a little bit more
• 35:30
  adish because you're challenging things all the time.
• 35:31
  And because you kind of have to fight and you kind of have to be a little bit
• 35:34
  more like, hey, get back.
• 35:36
  You know, and so there's the mistyping of social overlays and all these other things.
• 35:40
  So I can't ever guess with, you know, total accuracy, but yeah.
• 35:45
  And I'm a real nuisance to watch a TV show with because of this.
• 35:48
  Cause I'm like, that's a six.
• 35:50
  And my husband's like, okay, okay, all right.
• 35:54
  - Okay, that's super.
• 35:55
  - I just was trying to watch Family Guy and hear you.
• 35:58
  (laughing)
• 36:01
  - All right, so let's do, so we'll move on here.
• 36:05
  I think we've done enough about me.
• 36:08
  - Yeah, you look very uncomfortable there.
• 36:10
  - Oh no, I feel like we have some more,
• 36:12
  we have some stuff to unpack here, so.
• 36:14
  - No, no, no, we'll get to some,
• 36:16
  what do we do with these things in a minute?
• 36:18
  But let's talk about Doug for a second.
• 36:20
  So you've got Doug's in theagram too.
• 36:22
  So let's talk about Doug in relationship with me.
• 36:26
  Like how do our two personalities mesh?
• 36:29
  - Right, so Doug is a seven,
• 36:31
  which is generally called the enthusiast.
• 36:34
  And that is a type that is very much avoiding pain
• 36:39
  and deprivation, that's the core fear,
• 36:42
  to be trapped in pain and deprivation.
• 36:43
  And so it's really looking for satisfaction.
• 36:46
  And sometimes that can look for stimulation.
• 36:49
  So that vice of the seven is gluttony.
• 36:52
  - Oh, for sure.
• 36:54
  (laughing)
• 36:55
  Wow.
• 36:57
  - Oh yeah.
• 36:58
  - Dude, I'm fast for you.
• 36:59
  - I get fat.
• 37:01
  (laughing)
• 37:05
  I mean, it's fair.
• 37:06
  - I mean, it's whatever, but yeah,
• 37:07
  I couldn't get the sexy one so long.
• 37:11
  - It's not necessarily food related,
• 37:14
  but it's wanting to have a little bit of everything,
• 37:17
  wanting to sample all the things, right?
• 37:19
  And I think that is something that is pretty well-known
• 37:22
  about you, Doug, and that you recognize about yourself,
• 37:25
  is that you want to try all the things.
• 37:26
  - That is true.
• 37:27
  - Right, so you try all the things, Nick sees what works,
• 37:30
  and then goes, I'm going all in on that, right?
• 37:33
  So that's that interplay between the gluttony and the lust,
• 37:37
  but there's also a huge benefit to it.
• 37:39
  Like the seven goes out and tries new things
• 37:41
  and experiments and is the generalist of the Enneagram.
• 37:46
  So bringing new ideas together and keeping things fresh.
• 37:50
  And there's a whole theory of the evolutionary purpose
• 37:53
  of each type.
• 37:54
  And the seven is just to go out and keep things fresh.
• 37:57
  It's to go out and make sure the inbreeding doesn't happen.
• 38:04
  - We just keep it nice and fresh.
• 38:06
  Don't sleep with the cousins.
• 38:08
  - Right, but the sevens are the ones that go out.
• 38:10
  And yeah, don't sleep with the cousins.
• 38:12
  There's enough people out there.
• 38:16
  - Oh, you're from Tennessee.
• 38:17
  What are you coming on now?
• 38:18
  - Oh yeah, look at me.
• 38:19
  I'm not the one out there like, oh, lusty and whatnot.
• 38:23
  - Hey, what the royal family does, that's different.
• 38:26
  That's not the general population.
• 38:28
  - The royal family can use some seven energy.
• 38:30
  So going out, you know, but finding those new ideas
• 38:34
  and gathering new interesting things.
• 38:36
  And this is really important for the author community
• 38:38
  when we're looking at like sort of the role of each type
• 38:41
  in a community is that it doesn't get stale, right?
• 38:46
  It's so easy for people to get very focused
• 38:48
  in on a few different things
• 38:50
  and then those things stop being as effective
• 38:52
  and everyone starts freaking out,
• 38:53
  well, the seven's going, but look over here,
• 38:54
  look in this industry what they're doing.
• 38:56
  Oh, look at this interesting thing.
• 38:58
  Oh, I read this interesting article.
• 39:00
  I wonder if I could bring that in.
• 39:01
  And so bringing in those new ideas,
• 39:04
  not necessarily with like the depth that say
• 39:06
  like a type five would bring,
• 39:08
  but just sort of like, hey, here's some interesting things
• 39:11
  we're gonna add to the mix and we're gonna try them out.
• 39:14
  And also the seven can, when it's not working,
• 39:17
  they can split, they can go, nope, done with that.
• 39:20
  So that's kind of the ability of the seven
• 39:23
  and that attentional pattern of the seven.
• 39:25
  That desire to have satisfaction can lead to kind of that hunt
• 39:30
  for new and interesting things.
• 39:33
  - And now a word from this episode sponsor.
• 39:36
  - Hi, this is Jamie Davis,
• 39:37
  I'm a fantasy author and show manager for the Author Nation conference, and I am super
• 39:41
  excited to get to see some of you, maybe all of you, at the conference coming up this November
• 39:46
  in Las Vegas.
• 39:47
  In the meantime, here's a dad joke for you to bring a smile to your day.
• 39:51
  What's blue and smells like red paint?
• 39:54
  Of course, it's blue paint.
• 39:56
  And now, let's get back to the show.
• 39:59
  So how does sevens and eights get along?
• 40:02
  Well, you're both supposed to like each other?
• 40:05
  I mean, if it says no on paper, we should just end this.
• 40:09
  It's called a dead end.
• 40:10
  Yeah, just call it.
• 40:11
  Whatever.
• 40:12
  It was worth a try.
• 40:13
  Here's a seven, so he'll just go, "Ah, whatever."
• 40:15
  Come on, Clark.
• 40:16
  Can I just quit?
• 40:17
  Can I just break up with him?
• 40:19
  That's what he said.
• 40:20
  Give me a good reason.
• 40:21
  I mean, I hate to be the one to say, but this whole thing is cursed by God.
• 40:25
  So it's...
• 40:27
  No.
• 40:28
  Any two types can get along.
• 40:31
  And every pairing you can come up with has a really interesting dynamic that arises from
• 40:36
  it.
• 40:36
  So what I noticed about the seven and the eight, and especially you two in general, and I think
• 40:41
  why you get along so well is you're both assertive types.
• 40:44
  So there's three ways that the nine types get what they want.
• 40:48
  So these are called the Hornavian style, sometimes interaction styles, but it's how do you get
• 40:53
  what you want?
• 40:53
  And both the seven and the eight just go for it.
• 40:56
  They're assertive.
• 40:56
  They're like, "Well, I want it, so I'm going to go after it."
• 40:59
  This is not universal among the types.
• 41:01
  types are compliant types and they want to try and earn it.
• 41:04
  Some types are withdrawn types and they just withdrawn to themselves and give it to themselves.
• 41:10
  That assertive energy, you too will see eye to eye on that.
• 41:13
  The seven is trying to go out and get security.
• 41:15
  That's really what the seven is trying to get is like, "I don't want to miss out on
• 41:19
  things and not have what I need, so I'm going to go and do all the things."
• 41:22
  Eight is really going out and trying to get power and autonomy and control in the best
• 41:28
  possible way.
• 41:29
  But really like establishing sort of like, I have control over this situation.
• 41:33
  I'm going to go get it.
• 41:34
  If I want it, I'm going to get it.
• 41:36
  Like rating other countries.
• 41:38
  I just go get them.
• 41:38
  Well, um.
• 41:39
  Just conquering.
• 41:41
  So maybe you are British after all.
• 41:43
  Oh yeah.
• 41:44
  We have empires.
• 41:46
  We like our empires.
• 41:47
  Yeah.
• 41:48
  Hey, you know, we don't have any room to talk, but.
• 41:51
  You're Texan so.
• 41:54
  (laughing)
• 41:55
  Texas has an eight overlay for sure,
• 41:57
  that sort of Texan culture.
• 41:59
  We just keep trying to be like,
• 42:00
  hey, we get to see and it's like, stop it, stop it.
• 42:03
  Anyway, no, but that eight goes out and just says,
• 42:06
  well, if I want it, I'm gonna go get it for myself.
• 42:08
  It's that autonomy, that independence.
• 42:10
  And yes, an unhealthy eight can turn into conquering, right?
• 42:14
  It can, so when we're looking at the eight,
• 42:16
  we look at maybe the four types of power, right?
• 42:18
  There's empowerment, power to power with and power over.
• 42:22
  And so the healthy eight really likes,
• 42:24
  has that deep sense of empowerment,
• 42:26
  like, well, I can just go do the thing, right?
• 42:28
  And it may have the power to,
• 42:29
  if you're in a leadership position,
• 42:31
  that's giving power to people,
• 42:32
  power with standing beside people.
• 42:34
  And then as eight becomes less healthy,
• 42:36
  that power over becomes the craving.
• 42:38
  And so that's really--
• 42:40
  - So when he tries to conquer something,
• 42:41
  I need to stop him, is that what you're saying?
• 42:43
  - Yeah, yeah.
• 42:44
  It really, I mean, power over comes from a disconnection
• 42:48
  from our sense of empowerment, right?
• 42:50
  And so we're trying to do it in relation to other people,
• 42:53
  trying to find power in relation to other people,
• 42:55
  rather than saying, I'm powerful.
• 42:56
  It's like, well, as long as I'm more powerful than someone else,
• 42:58
  then I don't have to be afraid.
• 42:59
  So it's a way of trying to calm that fear
• 43:02
  that can become insatiable, essentially.
• 43:04
  And it can just keep going in that direction,
• 43:07
  kind of past the event horizon into some tragedy,
• 43:11
  which is great for writing a character who's a type 8.
• 43:13
  So one of my favorite type 8 tragic anti-heroes
• 43:17
  is Daniel Plainview from "There Will Be Blood,"
• 43:19
  if you've seen that.
• 43:20
  And you can see his sort of tragedy unravel as his need for power separates him from connection
• 43:26
  to others, especially his son, who he has that connection with.
• 43:30
  Okay, cool.
• 43:31
  All right, so we're good, Doug.
• 43:32
  We're carrying on.
• 43:33
  Yeah, y'all.
• 43:34
  We can make it work.
• 43:35
  Yeah, we're good.
• 43:36
  He was like, I really didn't know.
• 43:37
  I was like, I wasn't sure.
• 43:39
  I was like, maybe this is it.
• 43:40
  Maybe we're done.
• 43:40
  The next podcast we're just going to be like, well.
• 43:42
  Yeah, of course, Ed.
• 43:43
  Then I was going to roll with it.
• 43:44
  I think that the possible conflict between the seven and the eight is, you all have already
• 43:51
  navigated that, it sounds like.
• 43:52
  The conflict would be, "Nick, you want something like, let's go.
• 43:57
  Let's go.
• 43:57
  Why are we waiting?
• 43:58
  Why are we puttering around here?"
• 44:00
  If the seven's like, "Hold on.
• 44:01
  Let me try this other thing.
• 44:02
  Let me try this.
• 44:03
  Let me try that."
• 44:04
  But I think if your businesses were more intertwined, like you were trying to co-write together,
• 44:08
  you would feel more of that push and pull and deciding on a plot and moving forward with
• 44:14
  but, you know, in the podcast.
• 44:16
  - We actually do co-write together.
• 44:17
  - Oh, you do?
• 44:18
  Oh, is that something that comes up?
• 44:20
  Too many ideas and wanting to, what is that like?
• 44:23
  - It's, oh, I should probably let Doug go first,
• 44:27
  but I won't because I'm number eight.
• 44:28
  - Oh no, you're already started, so go.
• 44:31
  - Yeah, not Nate letting someone go first.
• 44:32
  - Yeah, I think, exactly as you've explained it,
• 44:36
  I'm passionate about things and I'll push for things.
• 44:39
  And Doug is passionate about things
• 44:41
  and he'll bring things to the table.
• 44:42
  And when he's very passionate about something,
• 44:45
  I know that's what we should do.
• 44:47
  I know when to give.
• 44:48
  And if he's not that passionate about it,
• 44:50
  which is most of the time, he's like,
• 44:51
  "No, no, that'll work too.
• 44:52
  Let's do that."
• 44:53
  Or, "No, that's, maybe that one's a better way to go."
• 44:55
  Or a different way to go.
• 44:56
  And he'll give, he's super easy going.
• 44:59
  But when he goes, "No, I think this is good."
• 45:03
  I know to take that seriously.
• 45:04
  I don't think I carry on fighting too much, so yeah.
• 45:08
  - I do like, when I do say something and he goes,
• 45:11
  "Oh, we're gonna do this way."
• 45:12
  And then it goes wrong.
• 45:13
  I'm always like, "Ha ha ha, I told you you couldn't do that."
• 45:16
  (laughing)
• 45:17
  Told ya.
• 45:18
  'Cause he'll come in like, "Why did we do this?"
• 45:19
  It's like, "Cause you didn't listen to me."
• 45:21
  And then, but I don't do that when I'm wrong
• 45:23
  because that would be stupid.
• 45:25
  So I would up point that out.
• 45:26
  So.
• 45:27
  - Well, it sounds like you're using your different patterns
• 45:30
  of, you know, energetic patterns,
• 45:32
  but like attentional patterns to your advantage, right?
• 45:35
  Like Doug, you're keeping Nick
• 45:37
  from getting too locked into something, right?
• 45:39
  Sometimes the eight will get really locked into something
• 45:41
  and try and force it.
• 45:43
  And the seven is like, why would I force it?
• 45:44
  That sounds awful.
• 45:45
  What if I just looked at other options, right?
• 45:47
  So that's sort of, you know, the variety
• 45:49
  that the seven likes to look at can keep the eight
• 45:51
  from getting too locked in if you listen to each other,
• 45:53
  right?
• 45:54
  And it sounds like you are,
• 45:55
  but sometimes the eight doesn't listen to the seven,
• 45:58
  the seven doesn't listen to the eight,
• 46:00
  and it can become that sort of head budding
• 46:03
  'cause you have two assertive types.
• 46:05
  - Can I also just say, Nick, if you had tried harder,
• 46:06
  you could have been six and we could have been six, seven.
• 46:10
  Just let me down again.
• 46:11
  (laughing)
• 46:13
  - Clars like, oh God.
• 46:15
  - Once more, once more.
• 46:16
  Okay, so what is the first steps for applying this stuff?
• 46:20
  Right, we do the test, we run the results.
• 46:23
  So we've got these things and it gives us
• 46:25
  in the profile that I got,
• 46:27
  that's like 23 pages of information.
• 46:30
  There's a few suggestions.
• 46:33
  But what do you suggest as the next steps?
• 46:34
  What's it to do?
• 46:35
  - Well, there's sort of an infinite amount of work
• 46:37
  we can do through that lens of the type.
• 46:40
  And it's a lifelong process because we tend to backslide into fear,
• 46:46
  and that's just what happens.
• 46:48
  But we can, over time, two steps forward, one step back.
• 46:51
  So what I like to do when I'm doing coaching is figuring out,
• 46:54
  like, well, what is a problem that you're
• 46:55
  facing in your business right now?
• 46:57
  Let's just start there.
• 46:59
  My motto is, if it's not a problem, it's not a problem.
• 47:01
  So let's not go poking around for things.
• 47:04
  We don't need to find problems.
• 47:06
  They usually present themselves to us.
• 47:09
  And so if you're an eight and you're saying,
• 47:11
  I'm just tired, I'm feeling burned out,
• 47:13
  then we would look at that sort of pattern
• 47:15
  around the eight of the fierce independence.
• 47:16
  Sometimes it can be rugged individualism and say like,
• 47:19
  where are some places that you could ask for,
• 47:22
  you know, backup, some assistance?
• 47:23
  Where are some, what are some things you could offload?
• 47:25
  That's usually the first step.
• 47:26
  And of course it's going to be very personalized
• 47:28
  to whoever I'm talking with.
• 47:30
  But just for instance, that may be something that we look at
• 47:32
  because we know the nature of the eight is to just say,
• 47:34
  well, I'll do it myself.
• 47:35
  Because the eight's trying to reinforce this sense of self
• 47:38
  I am strong and I am powerful.
• 47:41
  And sometimes that looks like taking on so much to try to overcompensate and say, "Look,
• 47:45
  I am strong and powerful.
• 47:47
  I'm doing all these things."
• 47:48
  And it's like, "Okay, but what if you didn't?
• 47:50
  What if that's why you're tired?"
• 47:52
  When the eight burns out, and I work with a lot of authors who are close to burnout
• 47:57
  because of these patterns, when the eight burns out, it usually crashes and burns.
• 48:01
  And it's very hard for the eight to figure it out because they move toward what we call
• 48:05
  our stress type.
• 48:06
  So when you look at the Enneagram, it's got the nine types,
• 48:09
  and there's all these little lines connecting them.
• 48:12
  That shows us what we move toward under stress.
• 48:14
  So when the patterns of the eight aren't working,
• 48:16
  that intensity, that pushing, pushing, pushing,
• 48:19
  it moves toward, it starts to look a little bit like a five,
• 48:22
  which is sometimes called the quiet specialist
• 48:24
  or the investigator, which is very much
• 48:26
  internalized thinking center.
• 48:27
  It's sort of the eight withdrawals into their castle
• 48:31
  to plot their comeback, right?
• 48:33
  But it sometimes gets stuck there.
• 48:36
  And so it's like, until I can figure out how to regain that sense of power and autonomy
• 48:41
  and independence, I'm just kind of stuck here plotting.
• 48:45
  And so that's a lot of the times when I meet with aides, especially aides, because the
• 48:50
  nature of the type, one of the least likely to come for coaching.
• 48:54
  And so, you know, asking for help just doesn't occur to the eight a lot of the times.
• 48:59
  And so, you know, when the eight does come, it's usually because they're kind of in that
• 49:02
  holding pattern of that five energy, that stress type, and they don't know what to do.
• 49:07
  It freaks me out because it's like, "But I'm the action person.
• 49:11
  I go and do things, but I don't know what to do here, and I don't feel that intensity
• 49:16
  that I'm used to."
• 49:17
  So then we would coach around, "Okay, well, where has this fear kind of made you think
• 49:21
  all or nothing?"
• 49:22
  Right?
• 49:22
  The eight goes into all or nothing.
• 49:24
  And so then we coach out of that.
• 49:26
  And so really, I just look at, "Okay, well, what are you struggling with?
• 49:29
  I help you see what your fear has blocked off, right?
• 49:32
  It's blocked off a lot of pads.
• 49:35
  And it sounds like, "Oh, that's stupid.
• 49:37
  Don't do that.
• 49:38
  That'll never work."
• 49:39
  "Oh, nobody would do that.
• 49:40
  Oh, you'd just end up making an ass of yourself if you do that."
• 49:42
  So it sounds very logical.
• 49:44
  It sounds very helpful to fear.
• 49:47
  But a lot of the times it's just like a holographic wall.
• 49:51
  And it's like, "No, no, no.
• 49:52
  You can just walk through it and it'll be fine."
• 49:54
  And probably what you're looking for when we feel stuck, a lot of the times, the thing
• 49:57
  that we're after is on the other side of that fear.
• 50:00
  And so it's really about just starting to see the forms that it takes and running experiments
• 50:05
  to challenge its claim.
• 50:07
  That's great.
• 50:08
  And this is all joking aside, we did have the pleasure of being in the same room with
• 50:13
  Claire and Becca and two wonderful people.
• 50:15
  And we had several little sidebar conversations and it was incredibly enlightening and got
• 50:21
  both of us very enthused to do our enneagrams and take a look.
• 50:24
  So if you're looking for a nudge in the right direction,
• 50:26
  I'd strongly recommend you go to Liberated Writer
• 50:29
  and have a chat with Claire.
• 50:31
  - I mean, Nick started peeing
• 50:32
  in the middle of the morning now.
• 50:34
  - Yeah, I just pee myself, I just had.
• 50:35
  (laughing)
• 50:36
  - Yeah, he stopped wearing the--
• 50:37
  - I haven't quite got the bit
• 50:38
  about going to the bathroom to do it,
• 50:39
  but I didn't have to wait any more.
• 50:41
  - He put on the depends is that way he's got.
• 50:43
  - Baby steps, you know.
• 50:44
  - Baby steps.
• 50:45
  - Yeah, baby diapers is what it came down to.
• 50:47
  - Yeah, depends, that might be my thing.
• 50:49
  All right, so let's move on to one other thing.
• 50:51
  - Our new sponsor is the pen.
• 50:53
  - New sponsors, brought to you by Depends.
• 50:56
  And, oh my gosh.
• 50:58
  All right, so while we have a little bit of time left,
• 51:00
  let's go on to another thing that we talked about
• 51:02
  quite a bit in this group last week,
• 51:03
  which is author community, which is something,
• 51:07
  man, I'm recognizing more and more,
• 51:08
  the little gathering we had was like three days
• 51:12
  of therapy for me.
• 51:13
  I came away feeling energized,
• 51:16
  although a lot of what we talked about
• 51:18
  wasn't necessarily positive about the industry right now
• 51:21
  and brought up a lot of the issues and problems,
• 51:23
  I still came away really enthused from that.
• 51:26
  And you've got a project underway called the Liberati
• 51:29
  that you're starting that's coming soon.
• 51:31
  I've got to tell you, when I saw the name,
• 51:33
  I thought of Liberachi and the Illuminati.
• 51:36
  So I was kind of thinking like Enlightenment,
• 51:39
  but Pedazzled in Rhinestones kind of thing.
• 51:41
  - I'm gonna say that also feels like a adult swim cartoon
• 51:45
  of Liberachi leading the Illuminati.
• 51:48
  (laughing)
• 51:50
  We want to see a logo that's bedazzled.
• 51:52
  So, but anyway, all joking aside,
• 51:55
  it sounds like a great project.
• 51:56
  Talk about that a little bit.
• 51:58
  - Yeah, so the name just came to me.
• 52:00
  I was trying to think of a name and I thought of it
• 52:02
  and I was like, that's so silly.
• 52:03
  I have to keep it.
• 52:05
  - It's perfect, I love it.
• 52:05
  - It's great, I love it.
• 52:06
  - You're so smart.
• 52:07
  - It's catchy, it's catchy, right?
• 52:08
  - It is.
• 52:09
  - And it's not a cult, which I understand that saying
• 52:11
  it's not a cult maybe raises eyebrows that it is a cult.
• 52:15
  (laughing)
• 52:15
  - Only people running cults say this isn't a cult.
• 52:18
  So don't worry, it's not all of your savings
• 52:21
  you have to give us to--
• 52:22
  - No, it's not like you're based in Texas.
• 52:25
  - Yes, yes.
• 52:26
  Hey, nothing weird has ever happened here.
• 52:31
  Trust me, it's fine.
• 52:32
  We have zero regulation, you'll be great.
• 52:34
  - You'll be fine.
• 52:36
  (laughing)
• 52:39
  - Yeah, so the Liberati is a community
• 52:42
  that's gonna be focused around the Enneagram
• 52:43
  because I've been in Enneagram communities
• 52:45
  And it's just, I mean, a lot of the times we talk about the enneagram is just a shared language, right?
• 52:51
  Because you can say, I'm a type two and people go, oh, you're a helper.
• 52:55
  Okay. So I kind of know some things about you or think I know some things about you.
• 52:59
  And it helps raise compassion for each other.
• 53:02
  Cause a lot of the times you look at someone doing something and you go, what is wrong with your brain?
• 53:09
  And it's hard to feel compassionate.
• 53:12
  Yeah.
• 53:12
  Nick says that to me a lot, actually.
• 53:14
  And honestly, at some point it feels offensive, so.
• 53:18
  (both laughing)
• 53:21
  - But when you have the context and the model,
• 53:23
  the Enneagram, you go, oh, they did that
• 53:25
  because they're scared of something different
• 53:27
  from what I'm scared of.
• 53:28
  And that thing that we're scared of, it's terrifying.
• 53:31
  I mean, it's so terrifying, we often can't look at it.
• 53:33
  So that can help us sort of extend compassion.
• 53:36
  And that really helps the dialogue.
• 53:37
  So it's an Enneagram focused community.
• 53:40
  I'm going to be doing two-hour specialized presentations on Enneagram topics, so like
• 53:45
  Enneagram and community involvement.
• 53:47
  Enneagram and email lists, right?
• 53:50
  These things that matter to authors, very targeted things.
• 53:53
  So I'm going to bring my expertise, but that's just going to be kind of that one thing once
• 53:57
  a month where we kind of get the conversation going.
• 54:01
  And then it's just we have all kinds of monthly calls, and I'm trying not to overplan it,
• 54:06
  which is, you know, my one likes to be very in control.
• 54:10
  The one's called the reformer often.
• 54:11
  Sometimes the perfectionist, you know,
• 54:14
  I could sit there and go,
• 54:15
  "Oh, this is exactly how it should go
• 54:16
  'cause I love organizing things.
• 54:17
  I love planning things."
• 54:18
  And so that's my work in community is to pull back,
• 54:23
  recognize that as a need for control because I'm scared
• 54:26
  and pull back and like create that space
• 54:30
  for things to develop organically.
• 54:32
  So that's what I'm gonna do with this community.
• 54:34
  You know, it's a year commitment
• 54:36
  people disappear. And that's the thing. When we're under stress, most of the authors I know under stress disappear from community. It's this sort of survival instinct of like, I'm embarrassed that I'm struggling, I can't handle all of this, this is take I something has to go, you know, I can't keep it all together. I can't show up impressively. And so this withdrawing is what we tend toward. And that's the thing that keeps, you know, shooting us in the foot is the instinct to withdraw.
• 55:06
  when we're struggling, we need to have community. We need to move toward others.
• 55:12
  And so that's really what I'm trying to help us all practice. My self included is to keep showing
• 55:17
  up for a year. And that's sort of the launch pad because right now things are shifting in the
• 55:22
  industry. And I want all the nine perspectives to show up and contribute. And we can have this
• 55:28
  group thinking, right? Like each perspective brings what its perspective is. Each of the nine
• 55:33
  types brings a very important piece of the pie, but it takes collaborative thinking.
• 55:39
  It takes the different perspectives colliding.
• 55:41
  It takes conflict.
• 55:43
  It takes listening to each other to come up with something that will serve us in the
• 55:48
  next phase of whatever this industry looks like.
• 55:50
  Fantastic.
• 55:51
  That sounds really good.
• 55:52
  And it's definitely something I've learned more and more through various groups.
• 55:58
  I'm getting more involved in groups, and especially like a couple of weeks ago.
• 56:02
  He drags me just like he does.
• 56:03
  - He's always like, I don't wanna do that.
• 56:05
  But you're like talking to people.
• 56:07
  Like you'll actually like being around these people.
• 56:09
  So, yeah.
• 56:10
  - Well, we are at a practice.
• 56:11
  I mean, community is a muscle, right?
• 56:13
  Because when you enter into community,
• 56:16
  you will be annoyed by people.
• 56:18
  You will be tired, right?
• 56:21
  Like these are the things that happen to you.
• 56:23
  - Specifically, Nick, she's talking about you.
• 56:24
  You specifically, you will be annoyed by people
• 56:27
  and you will be tired of them.
• 56:29
  So, yes.
• 56:30
  Right?
• 56:30
  Like that is a necessary component
• 56:32
  that I think we've developed expectations
• 56:34
  that we could be in a community
• 56:36
  and it would be this like love vest,
• 56:38
  but it's like, no, community is,
• 56:40
  it's this centrifuge of personalities
• 56:42
  and people bump up against each other and that's okay.
• 56:45
  And some days we're just gonna be like, these people
• 56:48
  and we're not gonna wanna come back,
• 56:49
  but once we get back into it,
• 56:51
  once we have those experiences
• 56:53
  and don't let that anxiety sort of keep us separate,
• 56:56
  we start to really get those benefits.
• 56:59
  And so it's a muscle we have to work,
• 57:00
  and the pandemic just completely atrophied it
• 57:03
  for most of us.
• 57:04
  And so it's really time,
• 57:06
  we're starting to really see the deprivation of community
• 57:09
  and what that does to us.
• 57:11
  And going and looking at people,
• 57:13
  these are gonna be not in-person calls,
• 57:15
  but Zoom calls in my community,
• 57:16
  because it's like, when you're looking at someone,
• 57:19
  it's much harder to be a dick to them.
• 57:22
  - Oh no, it makes really good at that.
• 57:24
  - Or it's more fun depending on your personality.
• 57:28
  But you can see, like if you say something
• 57:31
  that doesn't land right, you can kind of see
• 57:33
  their expression in that part of you goes,
• 57:35
  oof, I don't like that, you know?
• 57:36
  And then you can make amends, you can reconcile,
• 57:39
  you can explain yourself, you can apologize,
• 57:42
  all these things can happen that we need to experience.
• 57:46
  Or you can double down.
• 57:47
  - Come on with another Xamarin.
• 57:48
  - I mean, there will be a code of conduct
• 57:50
  for this game, for sure.
• 57:51
  (laughing)
• 57:52
  - Yeah.
• 57:54
  - All right, really fantastic.
• 57:55
  - I would never just, I mean, that's obviously,
• 57:57
  I do think the community is one of those things.
• 58:00
  It's amazing and we do value it a lot.
• 58:03
  I think it's amazing.
• 58:05
  I think we as an indie have this amazing community anyway
• 58:09
  for the most part.
• 58:10
  So I mean, there's always that one genre,
• 58:12
  but other than that,
• 58:14
  it's like everybody works together.
• 58:17
  It's such a refreshing feeling compared to,
• 58:20
  if you come out of any other industry in the world,
• 58:22
  it gets more cutthroat I think
• 58:24
  than the indie publishing world does.
• 58:27
  - Very true.
• 58:28
  - Well, looking at the Enneagram,
• 58:30
  there are reasons why we don't,
• 58:31
  each type doesn't enter into community,
• 58:33
  or enters a community and leaves it very quickly.
• 58:36
  And so that's something that we can use our type
• 58:39
  to figure out, like why can't I stay?
• 58:41
  Why does this not feel right for me?
• 58:44
  Is this me or is this them?
• 58:45
  And then we can start to practice those skills
• 58:48
  of community 'cause they are skills, you know?
• 58:51
  We call them social skills because we can practice them.
• 58:54
  (laughing)
• 58:54
  - Might need quite a bit of practice.
• 58:56
  - All right, so we've taken up enough of your time, Claire.
• 58:59
  This has been brilliant.
• 59:00
  And you can find Claire at Liberated Writer.
• 59:02
  There'll be links in all the show notes we'll give them to you.
• 59:05
  But yeah, one more question for you here.
• 59:06
  We have a wheel of questions.
• 59:07
  - Wheel of questions.
• 59:08
  - Look at that, Doug's gonna spin the wheel
• 59:11
  and we'll come up with a random question off here.
• 59:13
  What you got, Doug?
• 59:13
  - It's actually a random this time
• 59:15
  of a photo of Nick trying to cheat.
• 59:16
  - Yeah, I curate them sometimes.
• 59:18
  - Yeah, I do.
• 59:19
  - It's hard to resist.
• 59:21
  - Okay, this will be, all right,
• 59:23
  you get to have one book and you're stranded on a desert island.
• 59:28
  What is the book?
• 59:29
  The Princess Bride.
• 59:30
  Oh, I love that.
• 59:32
  God, instantly she said.
• 59:33
  Choice, yeah.
• 59:35
  It's on a shelf behind me right now.
• 59:36
  I keep it on hand.
• 59:37
  I love the book, the movie.
• 59:39
  Book or a movie, which one's better?
• 59:41
  Both. Why choose?
• 59:43
  It is one movie that was made based on the book from beginning to end.
• 59:48
  I mean, even the dialogue and everything, it is so close to the book,
• 59:52
  which you can rarely say.
• 59:54
  Well, and fair to say, William Gold, he wrote, it goes to me, we wrote both.
• 59:58
  Well, he did write the screenplay for it, which helps.
• 1:00:00
  Yeah, and it's a shorter book, so it helps when you do it.
• 1:00:03
  All right, Doug, what's yours?
• 1:00:04
  I, you know, I mean, Princess Bride is a good one.
• 1:00:06
  I would actually say Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
• 1:00:10
  Oh, I think that'd be a good one to have.
• 1:00:12
  So also on my shelf behind me, I would take how to survive on a desert island.
• 1:00:18
  All right.
• 1:00:22
  Look at that. He is so eight. He is so an eight.
• 1:00:27
  That was an SX eight move right there.
• 1:00:29
  Every day. Like he's like, I'm not gonna, I am not gonna fail being stranded on a desert island.
• 1:00:34
  I'll show you. So we're also the island.
• 1:00:38
  That's right. Exactly. We're also the eights. We come into the community and the rest of the
• 1:00:42
  community leave. So I won't be invited to the Liberality. All right, Claire, this was brilliant
• 1:00:48
  and having you on. So great to be eating you and so great getting to discuss this stuff
• 1:00:52
  with you and I'll be studying my in-ear grammar and trying to do better, Claire. I'm gonna
• 1:00:56
  do better.
• 1:00:57
  You're doing great, Nick. Don't worry.
• 1:01:00
  All right.
• 1:01:00
  Thanks a lot.
• 1:01:00
  I'm not gonna try to do better. I'm just gonna do what I do anyway.
• 1:01:04
  You should. We love you.
• 1:01:11
  Thank you so much, Claire. She's fantastic. She was really cool meeting her for the first
• 1:01:16
  time.
• 1:01:16
  You look a little gutted. Are you all right, though, man?
• 1:01:18
  I feel a little tired.
• 1:01:21
  I feel like she poked you a little bit there.
• 1:01:23
  I was like, huh, I expected it because I'm already know I'm a wackadoo.
• 1:01:30
  Honestly, it's amazingly accurate.
• 1:01:32
  And then before we went on air and we touched on it on air, that if you take the test imagining
• 1:01:37
  yourself sort of late 20s, early 30s, that kind of age, I guess if you're 19, you can't
• 1:01:43
  do that.
• 1:01:43
  But if you're like me in an old fart, the results made more sense.
• 1:01:47
  I don't know that my answers would have been different
• 1:01:50
  that I put in there, but the results that it spat out,
• 1:01:53
  I feel like the rough edges have,
• 1:01:56
  time has taken a lot of the rough edges though.
• 1:01:58
  - I will say, I didn't look at it like from that,
• 1:02:00
  but I did look at it like,
• 1:02:02
  and as you guys answer the questions,
• 1:02:04
  it does give you, think about this as your whole life,
• 1:02:06
  think about this as more recently.
• 1:02:08
  And I thought, okay, well, that's good.
• 1:02:10
  So sometimes you have to answer those questions, I think,
• 1:02:13
  even though I'm like, that's not the answer I would,
• 1:02:15
  That's what give, but that's really the right answer.
• 1:02:17
  You know, like I think sometimes you got to be honest
• 1:02:20
  with yourself about what you're asking
• 1:02:22
  or what they're asking so that you can not just,
• 1:02:24
  I mean, if you go in there and try to honestly
• 1:02:26
  want to look good, then it doesn't really help you
• 1:02:27
  and you need all.
• 1:02:28
  So you might as well save yourself the time.
• 1:02:29
  - Yeah.
• 1:02:30
  - No, you've got to answer, yeah.
• 1:02:32
  You've got to answer it honestly.
• 1:02:33
  So, but it's a good test.
• 1:02:35
  You can tell by the test that it asks you very close
• 1:02:39
  to the similar question in different ways multiple times.
• 1:02:42
  So that's how it feels.
• 1:02:43
  - Trying to trick me off.
• 1:02:44
  But then me, I was like, I remember that question.
• 1:02:49
  Yeah, it builds the perspective.
• 1:02:51
  Anyway, Claire's great, and she's really intuitive with this stuff.
• 1:02:54
  So if you have a hankering to do Enneagram and get it looked at, liberated writer.
• 1:03:01
  Totally worth doing.
• 1:03:02
  But I also like that she's building this community too, because I do think I'm a big proponent of having community.
• 1:03:08
  I think that's big.
• 1:03:09
  I mean, you know, you're my community, but you know, we also have others that we're all a part of.
• 1:03:14
  And it really is amazing how we just, you know, we keep it going there.
• 1:03:18
  And I think it's a great indie authors are some of the best people out there.
• 1:03:22
  Absolutely.
• 1:03:23
  Also, some of the worst people.
• 1:03:25
  Just say, you know, there's always exceptions, but the majority are really, really great.
• 1:03:30
  So like, and like, like Claire said, like if you don't like people, then don't network with them.
• 1:03:35
  There are people in this industry that they need, both of us have, have rubbed the wrong way or been rubbed the wrong way.
• 1:03:42
  You know, and now we still clear off.
• 1:03:43
  Yeah. Yeah. So cool. All right. Good show. Thanks, Claire. And support the show on Patreon. If you feel you get value, there's great extras and bonuses in there. There's a fantastic bonus we did with Claire after recording the main body of the show.
• 1:03:56
  Nice long one too. So it's good. It was a good little chunky one.
• 1:04:00
  Plenty of content in there and it's real cheap just to join. You can join for free and check out the stuff and check out Patreon and see what it's all about.
• 1:04:07
  Anyway, huge thanks to our friends at Bellum. Thanks for the show. We love Bellum.
• 1:04:14
  You'll find links to all that stuff, Claire's stuff, our stuff, all the things in the show
• 1:04:20
  notes and until next time, be cool to each other.
• 1:04:22
  Farewell and some following seas.
• 1:04:25
  You've been listening to the Two Authors podcast with Nicholas Harvey and Douglas Pratt.
• 1:04:31
  Subscribe on your favorite platform for new shows coming every week.
• 1:04:35
  (upbeat music)