Latest / The Leading Yourself Podcast / Why Great Leaders Welcome Dissent and Embrace Imperfection | Ewan Hamilton
Transcript
- Kene Igweonu: Leadership be quite instinctive ⁓ and can be a But how you get to place where leadership becomes a reflex is that you read a lot of leadership books, you go for courses, you learn from mentors and sponsors. But when you're under pressure, that stuff doesn't help you because you've not internalized it enough. My guest in this episode is Ewan Hamilton, who is Chief Product and Commercial Officer at Experian Customer Service. Ewan, do you mind saying a little bit about your company and your role within that? I always to start from there because I think it's really important that people understand the scale of what you have to deal with in your day job and what your role means. So what does it mean to be a Chief Product and Commercial Officer at Experian? And so what I find in my own practice is that I've learned all that stuff about leadership from people and from books and from different theories. When I'm not under sustained pressure, when I have the space to think and actually bring them into practice, I deliberately bring them into how I lead. And by practicing them in that way, they a little bit more internalized so that next time I'm under pressure, I stand better chance of those ideas flowing into how I Ewan Hamilton: Sure. So, Experian is a big global data company, but does a lot more than that now. I work in the UK business, ⁓ our consumer business. And the way I tend to describe that is anytime ⁓ consumer is engaging with an Experian branded product, that's in the consumer business. So, we've ⁓ a app that lots of people use ⁓ to their credit score, improve their credit score. Kene Igweonu: that challenge. Ewan Hamilton: compare credit products, protect their identity. got about 16 million customers that have signed up. And so my role is being responsible for effectively the full products of the product strategy, ⁓ we're trying to take ⁓ business, what we're trying to do to support customers, ⁓ driving sort of commercial relationships that we've got. work with lots of the banks. So yeah, we're quite a big team across ⁓ full consumer business. It's about I think that you often will say, or you read books and think, ⁓ these people have got it together. They know exactly how they lead and they've got ⁓ it And I don't think many people are like that. And I think the reality is we're all slightly making up as we go along. ⁓ But think trusting your instinct in the moment, the pressure situation, when you need to make a decision. Yeah, you got to go with it. And I think then 500 people and in my kind of product team is about sort of 60 odd. yeah, lots of interesting things that we work on and we see ourselves as one of the most exciting fintechs in the UK and we're really trying to help shape the financial services market in the UK. when you do have a bit of time or when you learn more and then you kind of reassess, do you think I made the right decision with the information I had? How would I do that differently? And I think that that's the process of evolving your leadership and being more deliberate. But I think still the majority of the time you're working on instinct and I don't think that's, that's a problem, but sometimes it's quite good opportunities like this to reflect on, you know, what is, what is my leadership style? How do I show up? Um, Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much for joining me on podcast today. Okay, great. ⁓ Yeah, absolutely. I'm so delighted to have you here. So for listeners, just to kind of give a bit context, I first met Ewan the Harvard Business School when we did a course called, do you remember the title of the course we did? It's been a while now. Ewan Hamilton: No worries, good to be here. Kene Igweonu: Yeah. There is a method in the madness. I think you're absolutely right about working by instincts leadership. Because sometimes you've got to make 1,001 very quickly but I think there is a space particularly things are operation, when you can actually have the deliberate we have practicing. Ewan Hamilton: because sometimes there is a method in the madness. ⁓ disruptive innovation, I think was the focus. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, strategies for a successful enterprise. So that's good. So that's an impromptu test right there. You passed it. So well done. So in this conversation, I'm particularly interested in how self-leadership shows up under pressure. Ewan Hamilton: Hahaha Kene Igweonu: Because you know the popular saying, practice makes perfect. I think that's where it comes in. But you cannot practice when you're under pressure, when you have to deliver the goods instantly. Ewan Hamilton: Mm. Sometimes ⁓ people I as weaker leaders can hide behind kind of theory and kind of practices. And that's almost creates a barrier then to other people to say, unless I have these things, I can't lead. I think that ⁓ I'm quite against that, I think that you can lead, you can it on kind common sense or as we said before, instinct. ⁓ Theory definitely has its place, but I think people that overuse it or quote certain things in inappropriate to me that can be a sign that maybe they're not the best leader or they're not the most comfortable leader ⁓ in the room. Kene Igweonu: Actually, I agree with that because sometimes I think one thing I found in my own experience as an academic, is that sometimes there are a few occasions when you start with the theory and go into the practice, but most times you actually start from the practice. And once you've tested and established that practice, then you go back and say, OK, how does this fit to get us in theory? So you can approach it actually from both ways. Ewan Hamilton: Mm. Mm. Kene Igweonu: But I hear what you say. I think that I have seen leaders who are very good on the theoretical stuff. But I think one of the hallmarks, at least of the ones I've encountered, is the lack of impact. Because they can talk the talk. When they're in a room, they can really use the right language. But what don't see is the impact of their leadership, because it's all in theory. Ewan Hamilton: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think we could probably all listening to this think of a few people that would fall into that category. And think as leader, it's about having the ideas and it's about having then the execution that's within the people that can do both of those things and motivate a team to achieve, be able to spot where there's risk and be able to prioritise and drive focus. are the leaders I really look for, people that Kene Igweonu: So let's begin with what self-leadership means to you as a senior executive leader. Ewan Hamilton: really know what's the most important thing we need to be doing. Why? What impact does it have? Those the things I look for over people that can quote kind of theory or, you know, business books that they've read. Says me who quoted about an Abraham Lincoln book, but you know. ⁓ It's good question. It's not a term that I probably have come across that often, but the phrase is do as I say, not as I do. I that's the opposite ⁓ of kind of leadership ⁓ that try and represent. And so for me, it's how can I constantly embody what I want my teams to do and how I want them to act. So ⁓ I want be really deliberate and ⁓ Kene Igweonu: I mean, yeah, it comes in useful sometimes, but I think ultimately it's about the practice. I mean, leadership is practice. It's not in the domain of theory. How do you do that? How do you build a team with that kind of mindset? I mean, I ask this question because we use a lot of interviews to get people into roles. I personally think interviews, like exams, is not the best test of knowledge. How do you... Ewan Hamilton: Yeah. to really ⁓ show up as want to appear. think of things that is really hard to do as a leader, but really important is to try and be calm, collected, ⁓ just absorb a lot of the pressure that can come on you. And that can be pressure coming from above, can be pressure coming from below. One of my early bosses actually, he taught me a lot where ⁓ we had Mm. No. Kene Igweonu: build a team that way when you haven't worked with those people in the past. How do you know who fits, who is going to be able to bring that kind of understanding to the table? Ewan Hamilton: You know, it was in quite a startup environment and he was one of these people that no matter what was going on, no matter how busy we were, how stressed he was, how much pressure he was under, it was like, just didn't, didn't even touch him. And ⁓ remember being in his team and that gives you a lot of confidence. gives you ⁓ lot of faith. And I think I try and do that where I can. ⁓ yeah, really just always be positive and, and try and, ⁓ I think that is one of the hardest things and I think it is something that... personally don't love scripts and I like sort of changing interview and the flow, depending on the conversation and trying to really establish how deeply people think about certain topics. So if someone works at a company, I'll try and, ⁓ what, you what are are the biggest risks that are facing the business today or what are, you know, what are some of the ⁓ big challenges facing? Those sorts of things where you can, you can kind of quickly assess the level of depth for someone's answer. Kene Igweonu: Hmm. Ewan Hamilton: find the good things in any situation. So that's probably what I think of when you ask about leading yourself. Kene Igweonu: So you've got to set the weather for your team. So make sure that you're achieving what you want to achieve with the team. you set the weather. Interesting. ⁓ So I'm wondering if the idea of kind of absorbing the pressures of work in the moment, Ewan Hamilton: Okay, this person really thinks a lot and thinks deeply and is very thoughtful versus this is quite a high level answer. So I think that's kind of one thing. I think then we use particularly so in product, we use product sense interviews to just really see how people approach kind of problems where there's no right answer. How structured do they think? How creative are their ideas? Exactly. Mm-hmm. Kene Igweonu: and holding the space and really setting the right kind of weather that you want for your team. I'm wondering what does that do to you as a leader? Because you've got to let that pressure go somewhere, somehow. How do you manage soaking up so much pressure? What do you do with that afterwards? Ewan Hamilton: Hmm. ⁓ how broad is their understanding of things like regulation and what can't do. So I think, case studies and sort of practices definitely play a role. But I think broadly, again, I'm going to go back to the word for instinct. think ⁓ I often leave an saying, I really just have a good feeling about that person. I just think, I don't know what it is, but I just think they're going to be good. And I've definitely been wrong, but I've been right. Yeah, it's good question. I over time you do just build a higher tolerance for it. And so, you used to really stress me out or create for me a few years ago are now things that you kind of probably don't spend a huge amount of time. So it does take time to build that level of resilience and realize, you know, these things happen ⁓ and always going to happen and you dwell on it. So I think that is a good lesson. many times on that as well and probably not always gone for the most obvious candidate and I think those candidates where you see something in someone, on paper they're definitely not the best. They tend to be like the highest performing people that I've found when you get that right but that's very rare. I think the other thing is sometimes you do just have to take some time, whether that's going on a walk, go on a run. think exercise for me is a really helpful ⁓ pressure release. And obviously can't do that in the middle of the working day very often, but I'll definitely, I've had a tough day, I'll say to my wife, look, I think I need to go on a long run and that normally sorts me out. Kene Igweonu: Can you describe a moment when your values not convenience or ambition guided a difficult leadership decision you had to make. Ewan Hamilton: think that it's a good question. One value I have is definitely around sort of inclusivity. And I don't you've ⁓ read book, Team of Rivals, and it's about Abraham Lincoln and how when he became president, he wasn't expected to be president, but rather than creating a team of people that were less experienced than him and that he could kind of dominate, actually... got his rivals that are much more experienced to be on his leadership team. And I think that really value having people around me that I trust to dissent and challenge and push a different agenda often to talk to what I might have. And there's a I can't go into specific examples about Experian currently, but When there's really kind of difficult I really value having people around me that I trust to dissent and challenge and push for a agenda often to talk to what I might have. When there's really kind of situations and there's no right answer. I think having people around you that disagree with you, doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but I think that's a really helpful tension and that really resonates with my values. situations and there's no right answer. I think having people around you that disagree with you, doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but I think that's a really helpful tension and it means you know there's maybe sort of politicians around that don't necessarily follow that today but me that resonates with my values. Kene Igweonu: Hmm. I like that. And I know the story of Lincoln and how, after he the election, he brought his opponents into his government. And ⁓ I think really important way of kind of thinking about this, because what you don't want is group think when everybody's thinking like you want people that will challenge you. ⁓ Does that approach to leadership you you bring diversity into this into your leadership space, ⁓ you bring people who you? Ewan Hamilton: Mm. totally. Kene Igweonu: What does that do? Is there a personal cost to that? It's not a very comfortable place to be with as a leader. Ewan Hamilton: Get the balance right between ⁓ creating an environment where just constant discussion and very little decisiveness and And I think that you can't have a situation where there's eight or 10 people all offering their views and they're all countering you and you just spend all your time debating. So I think you want a couple of people ⁓ whose opinions you trust and tend to look at things in a different way. ⁓ But then also, knowing the point, right, draw a line under that this is the decision we agree and we commit to that decision. think that's the balance to strike. I think what one thing I actually say to everyone that joins our which is it doesn't matter ⁓ how you are, how long you've been working, how long been in the company, you can always a challenge and apply your view and ⁓ and put your view forward, you don't need to earn your stripes. I think having that as a culture means that you're kind of always having a fresh view on things. You can always learn and do better. And that's something that, guess keeps our culture quite fresh. Kene Igweonu: So thinking about your your leadership role, how do you stop that role becoming your identity as a person? Ewan Hamilton: Mm. Kene Igweonu: especially when as a leader, people have very high expectation of you and you've got high responsibility. Ewan Hamilton: That's, that's, that's a really good question. It's something I do actually think about is when you're used to being in an environment where, know, I'm not too authoritative, but you are used to giving people instruction and telling them what to do. And you then go into your personal life and that's a very different situation, certainly for me. And so how, how do you not have that, kind of, impact you and how you show up personally, but then also vice versa? It's not an easy thing. I think the reality is you don't want to have different personalities in work and out of work, but you do have to show up differently. think that really understanding the you play in ⁓ both of your life and continuing to try and ⁓ not make work your sole focus. So one thing I really benefit from is that my wife's a doctor, so she's an obstetrician gynaecologist and her working life and her daily kind of rhythm is so different to mine. easiest day is probably 10 times harder than my worst day. ⁓ just the reality. And so when I hear what she gets up to and what she does, ⁓ It really puts things into perspective for me and I can't really get, get too stressed and get too, um, I guess, yeah, self-centered on that sort of stuff. I think also because, I don't spend that much time talking about work outside of work. I very much compartmentalize when I'm at work, you know, a hundred percent. It's my, my focus. when I'm out of work, it's not. And I think that's a really helpful balance to strike. sometimes you have to take it home or you're thinking about something that's coming up, but that's quite rare for me. So I think that really helps. Kene Igweonu: And that's really good. mean, there's this performance study scholar, Richard Schechner, that talks about this notion of how we different social roles as a leader, as a parent, as a husband, ⁓ and so and so forth. ⁓ And that of those roles, the fact that we perform them differently doesn't make us inauthentic. But that's how we just inhabit those rules at different times. Thanks for that. So is there a regular practice or habit that helps you stay grounded, both as a human being, but also as a leader? And you talked before about exercising. something? Ewan Hamilton: I probably got a really simple one and it's like, I'm going back into the office quite a lot now and I live on the Victoria line. So I get a seat and my commute in is 25, 30 minutes on the tube, no internet. And I read and I deliberately read fiction because I just love fiction. And that's my moment where I'm just in a completely novel world, hundred percent focused. It's like that time, that's the fastest moving time in my day. It's like, but before I know it, I'm at Victoria station and I'm ready to work. But I think that's a really thing for me to just completely disassociate and focus on something else. Kene Igweonu: That was a good one. So in a sense, every leader has to find a moment when you immerse yourself in that fantasy, that world that is different from the world that you inhabit in daily. That allows you a bit of an escape, so to speak. Ewan Hamilton: Totally. Yeah, and I think the other thing I do if I'm working from home is I'll always get up and I'll always go for a walk before I log on, get a coffee, walk around the local park. in that time, I'm often thinking about things that will happen in the day and ⁓ to come up with ideas or ⁓ about some problems I'm facing. But I think that I'm very consistent in my routine on most things actually, and I think that kind of just helps you kind of navigate the week and navigate the pressures and everything else. Kene Igweonu: Consistency and routine. Great, great. I think every great leader, every leader, not just great leaders, every leader should have some consistency and routine. It helps to keep you grounded. So for someone who is listening to this podcast right now, who is maybe reflecting on what it means for them to live well, what would you want them to hold on to? What would you say to them? This is a practice. This is a discipline that you need to hold on to and nurture Ewan Hamilton: Mm. Mm-hmm. Kene Igweonu: in order to grow and to develop to become that leader that I want to be. Ewan Hamilton: I think one thing I've learned as you go from an individual contributor and become a manager of a smaller team and then a bigger team, you kind of go through that stage of, and if you're a high performer, you're used to doing a job ⁓ ⁓ really tangible things and often getting ⁓ broadly right. I as you become and more senior, you realize that actually you can't ever get it all right. You get it wrong most of the time. And whether that's with how people view the decisions that you make, how people view how you show up in certain situations. I think when I was experienced as a leader, you kind of look those negatives or those as ⁓ you really on it. And I think actually part of leadership is accepting that you're never going to get it right. You get it wrong most of the time. And whether that's with how people the decisions that you make, how people view how you show up in certain situations. I think when I was less experienced as a leader, you kind look at those negatives ⁓ or those criticisms ⁓ you really dwell it. And I think part of leadership is accepting that you're never going to get it right. Hopefully you get it right sometimes, but you never do. And I think that's quite cathartic. And as long as you're trying to get it right and you're trying to do the best, and that's what I try and do, I think that's really important. And I think you've got to be okay with getting things wrong and being really open to feedback because people really value that and people respect, leaders that are very open to hearing that. Hopefully you get it right sometimes, but you never do. And I think that's quite cathartic. And as long as you're trying to get it right and you're trying to do the best, and that's what I try and do, I think that's really important. And I think you've got to be okay with getting things wrong and being really open to feedback because people really value that and people respect, I think, leaders that are very open to hearing that. Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Yeah. Ewan Hamilton: you know, when you're trying to land a difficult message, hearing where maybe you weren't sensitive to an opinion that you hadn't necessarily thought of before. Next time you'll consider that. yeah, accepting you're going to get it wrong is something that I think you learn a lot more as you get more senior, whereas early in your career, you're not so used to that. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, I spoke to a leader who talks about this idea of being very self-critical and really challenging themselves to get better. What you're saying here is not dwelling on those things, but learning from those things that you have got wrong and you will get lot of things wrong in leadership and that's absolutely true. ⁓ it's what you learn from it, isn't Ewan Hamilton: I think the best leaders I've worked with, say are very self aware. And I don't think you want to constantly be second guessing or trying to modify how you're showing up. But I think being tuned into different things, you know, I'm always analyzing how I think something landed or how I've positioned this decision, or you just got to constantly you know, learn and evaluate and improve as a leader. That's what I found anyway. And be open to doing that. Particularly in the world we're living in with technology changing so rapidly, you got to be open to learning and challenging yourself. Because otherwise you're not going to be a leader for very long. Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely true. Absolutely true. And I think that's really important that we keep of improving and learning new things and new ways of doing. in world of everybody's talking about these days. Sometimes I ask myself, I learning enough about how AI work, how it functions, how it will help me do my job better? I'm not sure I am, but I think there's still opportunity for me learn and get better in that space. Ewan Hamilton: ⁓ definitely all of us. Kene Igweonu: Yeah. All right. you so much, Ewan. Is there anything else you wanted to say before we end the podcast? But I think you've really said some really amazing stuff, Ewan Hamilton: Yeah, I think probably I've talked talking a lot about leadership as being something that's quite a sort of individual experience. And I think it can be and I think sometimes it is lonely. I think what I've learned actually, as grown as a leader is that it's really important to have a home team. ⁓ I've a boss that really put a lot of emphasis into that team. And I think having people either in your team or peers that you really trust their counsel and you can bounce off. I think there's a inclination early in your career. You think you need to have all the answers yourself and, you know, make decisions and be really, really, you know, kind of direct on that stuff. I think I've actually found that over time, really bouncing that stuff off people and it isn't just an individual thing, it is a team sport being a leader yeah, I that's a really important thing to also consider. Kene Igweonu: Hmm. Thank you. ⁓ I think from this conversation that being a leader is about, know, leadership is a team sport and being a leader is building the right team and being able to motivate that team, you know, setting the weather for that team, making sure that that team is working at its best. And I like what you said very much earlier in this conversation as well about getting the right people who you trust, but who can challenge you, who can bring and different ideas to the table. Amazing. Great. Well, Ewan thank you so much for coming on this podcast today. said so many wonderful things here. I'm going to listen again to it. ⁓ I hope for those of you watching that you have enjoyed listening to Ewan talk about what leadership means to him ⁓ and idea that leadership is a team sport. And you've got to make sure you have the right people alongside you, people with different skills to help you achieve your best as a team. Ewan Hamilton: Absolutely. Kene Igweonu: Thank you so much once again for joining me and goodbye. Ewan Hamilton: That's good. Bye.