Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How a FemTech Pioneer Is Fixing Women's Health Infrastructure with Ida Tin | Ep. 140

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How a FemTech Pioneer Is Fixing Women's Health Infrastructure with Ida Tin | Ep. 140 · Women Disrupting Tech

• 0:00
  I, I think it's helpful to think of Women's Health as societal
• 0:03
  infrastructure. This thought came to me.
• 0:05
  I was sitting at a dinner that JP Morgan was organizing for
• 0:08
  their infrastructure fund. So these are people investing
• 0:12
  into things like electricity grid and water pipelines and gas
• 0:17
  pipelines. And I thought, well, actually,
• 0:19
  you could think of women's bodies together with our
• 0:22
  medicines and our healthcare systems as our pipelines where
• 0:26
  our life energy runs into society, right?
• 0:29
  It runs through our body. We have to have healthy bodies
• 0:31
  to participate in society. And when you look at the data
• 0:35
  showing that women did 25% more of their life in poor health
• 0:39
  than men, and you see that this poor health is distributed
• 0:43
  throughout their whole life, we can see that there is a very, in
• 0:47
  a sense, wasteful system. We don't actually make women
• 0:51
  thrive well. That's Ida Din.
• 1:06
  She's the Co founder of Clue and the woman who coined the term
• 1:09
  Famtech. In this special episode of Women
• 1:12
  Disrupting Tech, she's my guest to explore what happens when we
• 1:16
  stop treating Women's Health as a niche and start seeing it as
• 1:19
  infrastructure for society. We talk about why continuous
• 1:23
  hormonal data might be the missing layer in Women's Health,
• 1:27
  why prevention does not fit most current healthcare business
• 1:30
  models, and what it takes to raise capital in a space that
• 1:34
  investors still struggle to understand.
• 1:37
  You'll also hear why Europe has a unique opportunity to lead in
• 1:41
  gender informed healthcare, and how EDA's Femtech Assembly is
• 1:45
  helping to shape the future of Women's Health.
• 1:48
  So if you care about how health data and capital shape the
• 1:52
  systems we built, here's my conversation with EDA Did.
• 1:57
  Hey Ida Tin, good afternoon. Welcome to Women's Disruptive
• 2:01
  Tech. It's an honour to have you.
• 2:03
  Let's start with some background.
• 2:05
  So you coined the term Femtech years ago, but how did you get
• 2:11
  from coining Femtech to becoming senior advisor of at Sprint and
• 2:19
  the founder of the Femtech Assembly?
• 2:22
  Yeah, that was a long journey. Many things happened.
• 2:24
  So first of all I was Co founder of Clue, which is an app for
• 2:30
  Women's Health that had started before coining the term.
• 2:33
  And then after being Co there for about a decade, I decided
• 2:37
  that it was time for other people to take over.
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  What made it better suited going for it for the next type of
• 2:47
  company that the company would morph into?
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  And then I took some time to kind of think about what I
• 2:54
  wanted to do, and I decided I wanted to do nothing for a
• 2:57
  while. And as I was doing nothing, I
• 3:00
  find myself traveling around the world talking about femtech
• 3:04
  because I kept being invited to speak at different places.
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  And it was an incredible opportunity to meet the femtech
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  community around the world. And after I'd done that for a
• 3:13
  while, I realized that, well, hold on, I'm doing the kind of
• 3:16
  work you would do if you were in a think tank.
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  Try to connect people all the way from investment banks to
• 3:23
  people thinking about starting a start up.
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  And I thought I wanted to get myself sort of like container
• 3:29
  around my work. So I decided to start from tech
• 3:31
  assembly, a think tank. And then as I was just doing
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  that, this opportunity came in because life takes it's weird
• 3:39
  turns. And this was from Sprint, which
• 3:42
  is the federal German agency for BRICS renovation.
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  And they do something they call challenges, which are innovation
• 3:50
  programs, brand programs. And they said either you have
• 3:54
  said femtech and female health 100 times in our conversations.
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  Why don't you try and scope a challenge around something in
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  Women's Health and what would you do?
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  And I said, well, there's one data set that is really missing
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  in Women's Health, which is having continuous data on
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  women's hormones. So here I am, halfway through
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  scoping this challenge around continuous forward monitoring.
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  OK. So going back to Clue, OK, maybe
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  for background purposes, what was Clue about?
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  So it started out with the question in my mind, why has
• 4:34
  there been so little innovation in family planning methods since
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  it all came out? And I thought, what if we could
• 4:40
  take out our phones that he could tell us today you cannot
• 4:43
  get pregnant or today you can get pregnant.
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  So that idea started out as a hardware idea and then morphed
• 4:51
  into being an app that helps women understand their
• 4:55
  reproductive cycle and, and by now it is kind of a health
• 5:02
  companion for women through their reproductive lives.
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  So it can help you understand how to get pregnant, trigger
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  pregnancy, menopause, periods and many other things.
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  And we have done many scientific collaborations because we have
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  one of the largest data centers in the world and women's cycles,
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  they work together with research institutions from around the
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  world to learn more about the women's cycle and how it is
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  impacted for instance by blue chip and the other things.
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  And we also took loom through FDA clearance as the world's
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  first 100% data-driven type of birth control.
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  I should say in bracket. The product is not on the market
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  that has a long story to it, but in a way that was my my goal
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  setting out and after 10 years kind of reached that goal and
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  then decided, yeah, to step down.
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  OK. So you initially, if I
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  understand it correctly, you've Co founded clue with three guys,
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  right? Yeah, even 4 actually, yes. 4
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  even. OK, so So what was that like to
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  work on a Women's Health problem?
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  Fertility and and and measuring when you're ready to to have a
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  baby or not. What was it like to work on that
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  particular problem with four men?
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  Small clarification was actually to help women understand their
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  menstrual cycles, sometimes to figure out when to try for a
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  baby, sometimes for the opposite, and many other
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  reasons. It was great.
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  I am a big believer in femtech companies being built by diverse
• 6:47
  teams for the world. I think it's really important
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  that women are part of building these products and services.
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  Otherwise I think we end up with solutions that feels off, but
• 6:57
  also the other way around. We need men to understand that
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  Women's Health is relevant to all of society and we need men's
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  talents and energy and money and many other things to be part of
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  innovating in Women's Health. So I was grateful for these men.
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  I'm still very grateful for all the many men who have worked
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  include as team members, as investors, as Co founders.
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  Without them, who would not be where we are today?
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  No so so I want to double click on one thing.
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  Why is it important for men to understand Women's Health and
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  and menstrual cycles? Except for the really obvious
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  part. So if we look at women's
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  healthcare, it's a really expensive part of society.
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  It's very important to run healthcare and it turns out that
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  a lot of our spending goes to women health related things in
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  our healthcare systems. It's also very important when
• 8:01
  women don't get adequate healthcare because then they
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  have a lot of sick days from work, they drop out of the
• 8:07
  workforce too early and of course their quality of life
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  goes down. And women are in many ways
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  important fabric and sort of glue in our society.
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  They very much keep families functional.
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  So when women are not thriving, it hasn't incredibly large
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  impact on their families, their local communities and our
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  natural economies. And we, I would say on an even
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  bigger scale, we have a world that has been built very much
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  without women's participation. And we have a lot of global and
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  planetary issues that need a little bit of rethinking I think
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  to solve. And we need diverse ways of
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  thinking and perspectives. And women have different life
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  experiences because of the biology we live in.
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  And we need to bring these perspectives in as we start
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  solving our planetary problems. Because it turns out, I think,
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  that as we're learning to care for the planet, we are learning
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  that we live in a regenerative system.
• 9:15
  It's a very interconnected biological system, and we have
• 9:19
  to approach things with a more holistic worldview to actually
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  make them healthy. So it's the same thing we're
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  learning as we're learning to care for women's bodies that we
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  need to learn on a planetary scale.
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  Yeah. Oh, that's, that's an
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  interesting observation that there's a lot of similarities
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  between the two. I I agree though that there's if
• 9:43
  we understand both better, this will the planet will be a better
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  place to live on for sure. Going back to Clue for a for a
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  minute, was that app ever launched?
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  Yes, I think. WHO is one of the leading apps
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  in Women's Health Today we have more than 10 million users in
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  190 countries. I'm happy to say that the app is
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  well and thriving. OK, so in the end all the hard
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  work did pay off. Yes, very much so.
• 10:16
  It did. And as I mentioned before, we
• 10:18
  have a really large data set on Women's Health that is also very
• 10:22
  diverse. It's coming from all over the
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  planet and this is really important because in Women's
• 10:27
  Health, there's an acute lack of research and there's acute lack
• 10:31
  of data. And so be able to for scientists
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  at, you know, pirate at Columbia and MIT and Stanford and many
• 10:39
  other amazing research institutions to be able to
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  access parts of this data set, of course, fully anonymized and
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  conduct research is a is, is important.
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  And hopefully something that will then, you know, in the end
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  leads to women getting better information when they get to
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  their doctor. So about health tracking, yeah.
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  So we can track a lot of data nowadays like glucose data.
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  And now also with a clue where we can check on is it on
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  hormones or on menstrual cycle level that we can check?
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  So clue is about the reproductive cycle and the work
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  I'm doing with strength will be on hormones.
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  OK. So what is missing on the
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  hormonal data then that we don't currently have?
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  So we can test hormones in blood or in urine or in saliva, but
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  those are snapshots of our levels and hormones, they
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  fluctuate in women, they fluctuate a lot during the day,
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  during the cycle, during pregnancy.
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  And we don't have much granule data on hormones.
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  And for the average person, hormone testing is not readily
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  available. It's something that you can pay
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  for. You get this one off data point,
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  but it's very expensive and it's cumbersome.
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  So the way we have you mentioned continuous glucose monitoring or
• 12:17
  sleep data, we don't have 4 hormones yet.
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  OK, so, So what, what, what is the missing piece there?
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  Is it is it just that it's really cumbersome to collect or
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  is it that it's difficult to collect or a combination of the
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  two? So the part that is missing is
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  continuous. That is really the missing point
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  here. We can do heart rate on
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  something like an O-ring and we have it continuous.
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  But for hormones we don't have a way of getting it continuously
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  yet. The technology has simply not
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  been built yet because it is, for different reasons, very
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  difficult. OK.
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  But yeah, the attempt is to try and hopefully in a couple of
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  years we will have something that is on the path to be
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  something a consumer can find and buy that is continuous.
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  Yeah. So what is, what's the impact of
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  it of not having this data? What what is happening as a
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  result of not having the data or what is not happening?
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  Yeah, but I think let's talk about period menopause, for
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  instance. This is a moment where women
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  stop having cycles and their hormones change dramatically.
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  We know from the data that many women are simply misdiagnosed
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  when they go to the healthcare providers with some of the
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  symptoms that might be extreme mood swings, hot flashes, sleep
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  problems, joint pains and many many other things.
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  The list of symptoms is actually really long and yet often women
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  will be prescribed antidepressant medicines, anti
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  excise the medication when in fact it's a hormonal problem.
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  So. So that is 1.
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  Problem. But if you look at something
• 14:18
  like cardiovascular disease, brain diseases or immune
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  autoimmune diseases, all of these probably have related to
• 14:28
  hormonal fluctuations, but they are not well understood yet.
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  So we're hoping that this data set will really reveal some of
• 14:36
  these connections, maybe correlations.
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  We don't know because we don't have the full data.
• 14:42
  And then I'll just mention finally that we routinely give
• 14:46
  hormonal contraception to women. We give hormonal replacement
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  therapy and all of these medications are given where we
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  actually don't have a good sense of what the right dosage should
• 14:58
  be for an individual. Yeah, and if it's right cure, if
• 15:03
  it's actually the right medicine to give.
• 15:05
  If it, if it, you know, even if it's the right medicine that
• 15:09
  we're giving it in the right amount.
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  And then we know, for instance, that if you all have, if you're
• 15:13
  from South America or from Southeast Asia, you probably
• 15:16
  need different dosages of something like contraception.
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  And so the whole idea of how do we give medicine that it's
• 15:23
  really personalized and how do we care for people in a
• 15:26
  personalized way? We we believe that if we had
• 15:31
  hormonal data, we could get much closer to doing that well than
• 15:35
  we can today and move from curing illnesses to do more
• 15:40
  preventive medicine. Yeah, which our healthcare
• 15:43
  system needs because we are all getting older and sicker and our
• 15:47
  healthcare systems are buckling under the pressure.
• 15:49
  We need to start doing something different to keep having the
• 15:52
  level of care that we have or even better.
• 15:54
  Yeah, yeah. I want to keep people out of the
• 15:57
  system for as long as as possible.
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  Yeah. I was listening to an episode of
• 16:03
  Freakonomics this morning, which dealt with the shortage of
• 16:08
  physicians, of general practitioners.
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  And basically one of the things that the guests all said is also
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  part of of indeed prevention and keeping people out.
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  And we don't do nearly enough, not even on the men's part of
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  the equation. No, I mean, there's a person.
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  Imagine that if we could understand people's hormonal
• 16:35
  health better, we could see. We could understand, for
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  instance, something like phenotypes of PCOS, which is
• 16:43
  polycystic Oberon syndrome, which is a condition that many
• 16:47
  women suffer from and gives a lot of problems, a lot of
• 16:49
  fertility problems. If we could have a better sense
• 16:52
  of who are these people, we could get them care before they
• 16:56
  potentially get sick. So yes, we need more data to do
• 17:02
  better preventive care. Yeah.
• 17:05
  So it's I also read somewhere that you think this is in part
• 17:10
  an infrastructure issue. Yes, I think it is.
• 17:14
  I, I think it's helpful to think of Women's Health as societal
• 17:18
  infrastructure. This thought came to me.
• 17:20
  I was sitting at a dinner that JP Morgan was organizing for
• 17:23
  their infrastructure fund. So these are people investing
• 17:27
  into things like electricity grid and water pipelines and gas
• 17:32
  pipelines. And I thought, well, actually
• 17:34
  you could think of women's bodies together with our
• 17:37
  medicines and our healthcare systems as our pipelines where
• 17:41
  our life energy runs into society, right?
• 17:44
  It runs through a body. We have to have healthy bodies
• 17:46
  to participate in society. And when you look at the data
• 17:50
  showing that women did 25% more of their life in poor health
• 17:54
  than men, and you see that this poor health is distributed
• 17:58
  throughout their whole life, we can see that there is a very, in
• 18:02
  a sense, wasteful system. We don't actually make women
• 18:06
  thrive well. So their energy is leaking out
• 18:09
  of the pipes, if you like. And this is very costly for
• 18:14
  society. So I thought if we as society
• 18:16
  think of Women's Health again, including healthcare systems,
• 18:21
  ultra medicine, as an as a really important part of what
• 18:27
  makes the society efficient and healthy and thriving, we should
• 18:31
  invest more. And then we have the other data
• 18:33
  set showing that there is nothing you can invest in as a
• 18:37
  society that gives a better return than Women's Health.
• 18:41
  The European Investment Bank, they say if you invest €1.00 in
• 18:46
  Women's Health, you get €26 back.
• 18:49
  It is very smart for societies to not use all this human
• 18:55
  potential and have all these very costly diseases hunt women
• 18:59
  for their whole lives. So I was wondering, yeah,
• 19:03
  because that it's a bit going back to something we discussed
• 19:06
  earlier, but why, why do investors not see this
• 19:11
  opportunity yet? I think they are increasingly, I
• 19:14
  think there are many reasons for this and some of them are
• 19:17
  cultural. Men generally don't understand
• 19:21
  much about what it feels like to have a woman's body.
• 19:25
  There is a whole set of life, a whole set of life experiences
• 19:29
  that women have that we have done a poor job of telling the
• 19:35
  world about and the job the world has done, a poor job of
• 19:38
  listening and asking questions. They, they have been hindered by
• 19:43
  taboos and shame and things. So men are not invited into
• 19:50
  understanding that there is this big part of life that is very
• 19:54
  invisible in our culture and that has been very overlooked
• 19:57
  and under researched and underfunded under innovative in.
• 20:01
  So those are some of the reasons.
• 20:03
  But I think it's changing. We see some of the big players
• 20:06
  now paying attention. We see Mackenzie came out with a
• 20:10
  big report. We see the Gates Foundation
• 20:13
  allocating money. We see national.
• 20:15
  Government is allocating special funding for Women's Health, so
• 20:21
  we we do see change coming, but these are big and heavy systems
• 20:26
  to change, so we need a lot of work.
• 20:30
  Yeah, Yeah. Just to add to the that change
• 20:33
  is coming, I read that I think the company name is Hologic that
• 20:39
  was acquired by two private Equity parties vote for €18
• 20:44
  billion. The good thing about it is that
• 20:47
  there's attention to female health because this is a female
• 20:51
  health care start up. The the not so optimal news here
• 20:56
  was that it was founded by men. So the wealth distribution
• 21:02
  doesn't go to women. But it's, I think there is
• 21:04
  attention and it's growing indeed.
• 21:08
  Yeah. So out of curiosity, you were
• 21:12
  sitting at this dinner and you think of.
• 21:14
  OK, well, actually the women's body is and Women's Health is
• 21:19
  sort of infrastructure for that we need to fix to make sure that
• 21:26
  energy is not leaking, that productivity is not leaking,
• 21:30
  that we can actually channel our resources in the right way.
• 21:33
  Did you actually test this by chance with those infrastructure
• 21:39
  investors? I did a little bit, but it's
• 21:43
  definitely on my To Do List because I don't know anything
• 21:46
  about trading stocks. But I was playing around on my
• 21:49
  app for like 10 minutes, my banking app to see if I could
• 21:52
  invest, you know, €100, just to see how that system works.
• 21:56
  And I was trying to find, you know, a pool of companies in
• 22:00
  Women's Health that I can invest in.
• 22:02
  And I understood that this doesn't exist.
• 22:04
  You can invest into a pool of energy companies or, you know,
• 22:08
  micro conductors or something. And I then made a little post on
• 22:14
  LinkedIn and said, Hey, why doesn't this exist?
• 22:18
  And so many people said it should exist.
• 22:20
  Let's go build this and let's create this.
• 22:22
  And I, I said, well, I'm, you know, this is not my field of
• 22:26
  expertise, but I would love somebody to pick up that idea
• 22:29
  and maybe take contact to JP Morgan or some other bank and,
• 22:32
  and suggest that they start an infrastructure funding for
• 22:35
  myself. So the idea is open and free for
• 22:39
  all to take, and rapid. OK, Well then ING and Goldman
• 22:44
  Sachs and JP Morgan and all those other parties, BlackRock,
• 22:50
  here's your call to action. Start a female health
• 22:53
  infrastructure fund. There is healthcare, there are
• 22:57
  healthcare funds which include or which may include companies
• 23:04
  that also produce medication for women, but that's really
• 23:09
  generic. It's not quite the same, no.
• 23:13
  And there's, there's a lot of, do you know if there are any
• 23:20
  venture capital companies that are specializing in this field
• 23:25
  there? Is they all tend to be early
• 23:29
  stage funds and they all tend to be quite small, their fund
• 23:33
  sizes. There is a big gap for later
• 23:37
  stage venture funding in Women's Health and in femtech.
• 23:42
  That's another. That's another idea that's free
• 23:45
  for all to run back. Cool.
• 23:47
  So again, here's your call to action.
• 23:49
  Also for feces, listening to this, to this podcast.
• 23:56
  So with Sprint, you're now scoping a major challenge to
• 24:01
  unlock hormonal data. How can it help women in Europe?
• 24:07
  How can it help Europe in general?
• 24:10
  So unfortunately we see a political direction in the US
• 24:15
  where anything that is gender informed medicine that is gender
• 24:22
  sensitive is being sort of, I don't know, it feels like it
• 24:26
  becomes a taboo to talk about gender and sex differences.
• 24:31
  And that's really unfortunate because we know that women
• 24:35
  express symptoms for a number of general health conditions
• 24:39
  differently or disproportionately than men, and
• 24:42
  we need to understand gender when we talk about healthcare.
• 24:46
  So that's a problem in America, but it's of course also a great
• 24:49
  opportunity for Europe to not do the same.
• 24:52
  And I'm pretty sure that we will start having better health
• 24:57
  outcomes than in the regions where they do not look at gender
• 25:01
  when they care for people. And hopefully this can be
• 25:07
  something that can draw investment and talent and
• 25:10
  activity to Europe because there is so much also business
• 25:15
  potential to be unlocked in Women's Health.
• 25:18
  So and then hopefully we will show.
• 25:22
  We will, you know, we can't discuss it, but we can show
• 25:24
  better health outcomes by a more gender informed approach.
• 25:28
  That will then be the winning argument also in America and
• 25:31
  other places where gender is becoming censored.
• 25:35
  Maybe. Yeah, yeah.
• 25:36
  I hope that at some point people in the US will find out that
• 25:41
  there is reason for this to be for health to be approached on a
• 25:46
  gender basis, for the simple reason that that bodies work
• 25:49
  differently. Yes, exactly.
• 25:51
  And maybe if I were to sort of take that one step further, I
• 25:54
  would say that I believe that designing societies for health
• 25:59
  in the broadest understanding of the meeting, meaning whether
• 26:03
  it's our bodies being healthier or our communities or our
• 26:07
  nature, our environment must be a winning strategy.
• 26:11
  And what is called for, given the problems our planet has.
• 26:17
  And when I look around the planet, I think Europe is in a
• 26:19
  really unique position to be the healthiest continent on the
• 26:24
  planet and make that a competitive advantage, because
• 26:29
  getting people to come to Europe with their talents is important.
• 26:35
  And I think it's a really big kind of attractive point to be a
• 26:40
  healthy place. Come and be here.
• 26:44
  And because, you know, sometimes people.
• 26:45
  Say, you know, how do we become more like Silicon Valley or how
• 26:49
  do we compete with China? With the Middle East and I, I.
• 26:53
  Think we have to be uniquely European and I think 1.
• 26:57
  Of the ways we can be. Uniquely European is to to focus
• 27:01
  on health. Amen.
• 27:04
  It's also. Interesting.
• 27:06
  Yeah, because I don't think the US has any blue Zones, whereas
• 27:11
  Europe at least as as a couple, Asia has a couple where people
• 27:17
  tend to live long lives and healthy lives.
• 27:20
  So yes, I, I agree that there's a huge opportunity for Europe
• 27:25
  especially to, to do this in a safe and let's say also climate
• 27:33
  friendly way. Yes.
• 27:35
  Because I believe that the. Systems they, you know, affect
• 27:38
  each other. We we get healthy also by being
• 27:40
  in healthy environments and, you know, care about not polluting
• 27:44
  our natural environments and we are healthy when we are in
• 27:47
  communities where we care about each other.
• 27:51
  If we have societies. Where we only care about money,
• 27:55
  we end up with unhealthy societies in a number of ways.
• 27:59
  So the orientation towards health is not just about
• 28:02
  healthcare. I would say it's a mindset that
• 28:05
  understands and kind of bow down to the fact that we are
• 28:09
  regenerative systems as individuals, as communities, as
• 28:12
  a planet, and we must design according to the principles of
• 28:16
  what sustains in life. Absolutely.
• 28:20
  So what kind of innovations are you hoping to attract with the
• 28:26
  Sprint Challenge? What kind of of founders would
• 28:30
  enroll so if you are building. A biosensor that can do
• 28:34
  continuous hormone monitoring anywhere on the planet.
• 28:37
  I definitely want to hear from you and, and, and have you be
• 28:43
  part of this ecosystem. I.
• 28:45
  Recognize that it's a. Very complex system to go all
• 28:48
  the way from now we have a biosensor to we understand what
• 28:52
  the data actually says about the body to how do we bring this to
• 28:56
  market, How do business models, how do we educate people to
• 28:59
  understand what this means? How do we change practice and
• 29:04
  clinical kind of protocols in the healthcare system?
• 29:07
  There are many, many, many parts that needs to come together.
• 29:10
  We have to start somewhere. And I, I am now starting at sort
• 29:14
  of .0, which is how do we generate the data.
• 29:17
  So anybody who can can be part of that work are mostly most
• 29:25
  warmly invited to take contact. OK.
• 29:30
  So what? I'm hearing you.
• 29:31
  Say it's, it's at at start, it's about how do we connect, collect
• 29:35
  data from bio centres, from devices that can do that
• 29:41
  continuously. So we better start to understand
• 29:44
  all those cycles and. Then from there we.
• 29:48
  Can move to OK how do we? Get this data.
• 29:52
  To build medication, to build protocols, to build better
• 29:56
  health system, let's say for Women's Health.
• 30:02
  And probably overlay. This hormonal data set with many
• 30:06
  other data sets because of course we need to understand
• 30:09
  bodies in a more holistic way. But but yes, so we, this is
• 30:14
  where I start. And I, I do think that if we had
• 30:19
  better understanding of hormones, it could be very
• 30:22
  transformational actually for, for so many areas of health and
• 30:27
  not just for women, also for men, but starting with women,
• 30:30
  because women are, our hormones are a little more crazy and a
• 30:35
  little more complex. So we're starting the hard
• 30:38
  place. Yeah.
• 30:41
  So so. Can you share a couple of
• 30:43
  transformation there that you see coming if we start, if we
• 30:48
  manage to collect this type of data so?
• 30:53
  Every single woman goes through perimenopause and menopause, and
• 30:57
  these are really, really radical, kind of almost violent
• 31:03
  transformations for many people. And we know that women drop out
• 31:07
  of the workforce sooner. Than they would have.
• 31:10
  If their symptoms were not taking them.
• 31:12
  So that's a really big one if we can help that transition get
• 31:15
  smoother, but also something like cardiovascular disease.
• 31:19
  So women's hormones very much impact our health of our heart
• 31:24
  and our kind of vascular systems.
• 31:26
  And women die a lot from heart disease.
• 31:29
  If we could manage that better, that would be a huge win.
• 31:32
  We know that we may get Alzheimer's more, you know, is
• 31:36
  that related to hormones? Question mark, What if we could
• 31:39
  work on that? Many women take the pill every
• 31:44
  day. They don't actually you.
• 31:47
  Know do that well. They they have many symptoms.
• 31:50
  Could we do that better for them?
• 31:51
  That would be massive. Yeah.
• 31:55
  I think and and again like. Sometimes a little bit.
• 32:00
  Chicken egg like we don't have the data, so we don't know what
• 32:02
  difference it would make and we don't know what difference it
• 32:06
  would make. So we don't start building the
• 32:08
  data access or, you know, do the long haul to do the innovation
• 32:12
  to get the data. But I think that's why public
• 32:15
  money is also needed for this research.
• 32:18
  You know, we need to leapfrog this technology so we get the
• 32:21
  data. And I would be very surprised if
• 32:24
  that doesn't unlock a whole slew of foe on research that needs to
• 32:29
  be done to understand how women's hormones actually
• 32:33
  impacts lots of other health conditions.
• 32:35
  So we just don't understand it yet.
• 32:37
  So let's let's. Start collecting data to make
• 32:41
  sure that we start understanding this and that we can actually
• 32:43
  connect. Start connecting the dots, yes.
• 32:49
  So I. Want to talk about the?
• 32:50
  Femtech assembly first, what is it?
• 32:53
  And then on the back of that, what is the relationship with
• 32:57
  the Sprint hormone challenge, if any?
• 33:00
  Yeah. So I.
• 33:02
  Wanted to create sort of a container around myself because
• 33:06
  there I was travelling around the world speaking at
• 33:09
  conferences, at Nikki, meeting femtech innovators and the
• 33:13
  bankers and the investment managers and all kind of people
• 33:17
  and I. Sort of realized that I was
• 33:20
  doing. The kind of work he would be
• 33:21
  doing if he hadn't been tech trying to connect people, trying
• 33:25
  to understand what are these big patterns here and how do we
• 33:27
  maybe policy makers and so decided to start from SIG
• 33:32
  assembly and. Then this opportunity came.
• 33:35
  In from spring and kind of derailed me a little bit from my
• 33:38
  think tank. So they are not connected, but I
• 33:41
  would say my thinking has evolved over the last year
• 33:44
  because first I was thinking, OK, think tank, you know, it's
• 33:47
  like you bring some smart people together.
• 33:49
  You kind of develop your thinking.
• 33:51
  You write a paper, maybe podcast or other things, but more and
• 33:55
  more. I understand.
• 33:56
  That there are so many people who come and they say I really
• 34:00
  want to do something in femtech and they have an impressive
• 34:03
  career behind them, but they don't quite know how to make a
• 34:07
  difference in this sector. And I thought, what if femtech
• 34:11
  is something could be more like a social movement, more like
• 34:15
  almost like a hashtag or some way to say we are all part of
• 34:19
  this global change. We are all part of this work and
• 34:23
  we do it in so many different ways.
• 34:26
  Whatever part of the world we sit in, we do our bit, but we to
• 34:30
  help people understand that they are part of this global change.
• 34:33
  And so actually I had a really interesting call with a branding
• 34:38
  agency that I was, I was sort of gifted A branding exercise very
• 34:42
  generously and it was inspiring to see that Femtech assembly.
• 34:48
  Could be more. Like almost like a stamp that
• 34:51
  people can take and say, you know, I'm hosting this event and
• 34:55
  I will use the stamp Femtech assembly and be part of this
• 34:58
  global community, but very freely distributed.
• 35:01
  Because I don't really want to build an organization and have
• 35:03
  to raise money for it and, you know, spend my energy building
• 35:06
  the organization. I want the organization to just
• 35:09
  be totally flat and open and everybody can pull in the same
• 35:13
  direction. But let them like a voice or
• 35:19
  credibility and the sense of community.
• 35:22
  So I'm it's information, but I would love it to be yeah, more
• 35:27
  like a social movement actually. And yeah, for, for the techies,
• 35:34
  yeah, for the. Techies among us.
• 35:35
  It's a bit. Sounds a bit like open source
• 35:38
  software. Yeah, it's like an.
• 35:40
  Open source software piece of code here.
• 35:43
  It's just a little snippet, but you can use it so.
• 35:47
  That we can find each. Other we can connect and once I
• 35:52
  have a little more time, I would love to to sort of kick it off
• 35:58
  and. Vent my energy to it but.
• 35:59
  Really, more than anything, enable everybody's energy to be
• 36:02
  challenged into this work. Yeah.
• 36:05
  Do you think? Or do I understand correctly
• 36:08
  that you think the efforts towards Women's Health in
• 36:12
  general are too fragmented? So there's a lot of things
• 36:16
  happening around the world, but there's no sort of cohesive over
• 36:23
  underlining action. I wouldn't.
• 36:26
  Say it's too. Fragmented, I think everybody
• 36:29
  that pulls in this direction, whatever way they do it,
• 36:32
  including you. Thank you so much for having me.
• 36:34
  I think it's really valuable what I it's, so it's not to kind
• 36:39
  of centralise it, it's just to enable and to amplify.
• 36:44
  Voices. It is to to channel more good
• 36:48
  energy to this work, yeah. OK, so it's it's.
• 36:54
  More again. About the infrastructure that
• 36:58
  yes, it's. Pushes it forward.
• 37:02
  Yes, it's a simple. Line of code that you can copy,
• 37:04
  paste and morph and change so it fits your purpose but that
• 37:09
  hopefully it will help amplify your work and give you a stage
• 37:14
  and a voice. So will there be sort of a?
• 37:18
  Femtech assembly conference then next year hey, if I.
• 37:23
  Could make my dreams come true. I would probably build a simple
• 37:27
  website with like, you know, this is what it is.
• 37:30
  So This is why we're doing and here's your kit.
• 37:32
  If you want to go do a femtech accept somewhere and you want to
• 37:35
  have an event, you want to write a paper, you want to podcast,
• 37:38
  here's a little bit of infrastructure for you to go and
• 37:43
  here's the hashtag and here are our principles.
• 37:45
  So, you know, be kind, be generous, be, you know,
• 37:51
  trustworthy in all of this. And if you agree to this way of
• 37:55
  being in the world that you know, take this native and go
• 37:58
  use it the best way you can. OK, sounds.
• 38:02
  Really cool. Be a.
• 38:04
  Be an. Assembler do assemblies, yeah, I
• 38:08
  think that there's. A.
• 38:10
  There's a bunch of health events now starting in the Netherlands.
• 38:15
  Embrace Health is doing 1. I think you were at an event of
• 38:19
  Florida this year, earlier this year with Anna.
• 38:24
  So yeah, that was a name I was looking for.
• 38:29
  So that's the. Type of events.
• 38:33
  You would be looking for and then the podcast will I'll get
• 38:38
  to that in a bit. One thing that I was still
• 38:41
  wondering about it, it intersects with clue.
• 38:43
  It intersects with female health more in general.
• 38:46
  I some way, shape or form. It may actually also have links
• 38:51
  with the with the assembly work you're doing.
• 38:54
  And it's around data and privacy because those are really
• 38:58
  important both for for from a user perspective, but also from
• 39:04
  a data perspective, because if you don't safeguard your data,
• 39:07
  then the quality of your data is can be not so good.
• 39:12
  So I want to talk about your experience with Clue.
• 39:17
  What is one thing that founders in the in the femtech space
• 39:22
  should keep in mind if they build an app like Clue or if
• 39:26
  they do build a bio centre for instance that tracks hormonal
• 39:32
  data? I'm very happy you asked that
• 39:35
  question. I think it's incredibly
• 39:37
  important. So I would say if you if you it
• 39:42
  matters where you build this technology because that defines
• 39:45
  under which regulation you are. And if you are in Europe, you
• 39:48
  are under the best data protection regulation in the
• 39:50
  world. Build it together with people.
• 39:54
  That are like the ones who will end up using the product, IE
• 39:59
  built with women. If you want to build for women,
• 40:03
  make sure that privacy is not a negotiable.
• 40:06
  It's never like oh, business goals of privacy.
• 40:10
  Privacy is built into the DNA and that's the premise.
• 40:13
  Without trust, we cannot build anything.
• 40:16
  We ask for the most intimate data and we must honor and
• 40:20
  govern this with uttermost respect.
• 40:24
  So that's a non negotiable and then I will say.
• 40:28
  Use. Common sense don't.
• 40:30
  Ask for more data than you can give value back.
• 40:34
  Don't ask them where they live and for their phone number if
• 40:36
  the service you're giving them has nothing to do with where
• 40:39
  they live and their phone number, for instance.
• 40:43
  Make sure that the user is in control.
• 40:45
  They can delete the data, they can port the data, they can, you
• 40:49
  know, have agency of where this data go.
• 40:52
  Make write the privacy policies so they actually understand
• 40:56
  them. You know, if you cannot look
• 40:58
  uses in the eyes and explain what your business model is,
• 41:01
  it's probably not the right business model.
• 41:04
  If you cannot explain uses how much data is being sent back to
• 41:08
  the ad networks because they wouldn't like it, you are
• 41:12
  probably sending too much data back to the ad networks.
• 41:15
  Have an. Imaginary.
• 41:17
  Empty chair around the board meeting with an imaginary user
• 41:22
  sitting there. Make sure that you know that
• 41:25
  they are hearing everything you say in the court meeting.
• 41:27
  If you're saying things that you don't want users to hear, you
• 41:31
  are not being ethical. That's my navigation, yeah.
• 41:36
  And also. The same applies, I think to, to
• 41:40
  or should apply to investors because of.
• 41:43
  The funding? Especially in Europe.
• 41:47
  Investors start to ask for how do you do this with privacy and
• 41:51
  especially if you talk about like really sensitive data, like
• 41:55
  promotal data, you have to have an answer to that question.
• 42:00
  If you don't, then maybe maybe figure that out first before
• 42:05
  going anywhere. I agree and.
• 42:08
  Investors must be willing to not pressure startups to get profit
• 42:15
  at all cost. I you know.
• 42:19
  Don't ask them to build business models that compromise data
• 42:22
  privacy and definitely don't reward the companies that
• 42:26
  breaches the uses trust or do things that are straight up
• 42:30
  illegal. I maybe just a side note, but
• 42:32
  I'm actually working on a paper for how to be a good ethical
• 42:36
  data company in Women's Health because it it appears to me that
• 42:40
  we have never kind of not on a regulatory level, but sort of
• 42:44
  culturally agreed on what is it to be behaving well.
• 42:48
  And I think for users, it would be very nice if they could very
• 42:51
  easily Orient themselves and say, oh, this is a company who
• 42:53
  agreed that this is good data practice or this company didn't
• 42:57
  want to sign that. Oh, maybe I'll take the one that
• 42:59
  have said yes to this set of. And I'm working on this with
• 43:03
  Karen Walters, who's a regulatory lawyer.
• 43:06
  And if it didn't get stuck on my desk, we would publish this
• 43:11
  soon. And and, you know, it can be.
• 43:13
  We can discuss it. It's not like the truth, but
• 43:15
  it's at least one attempt of saying this is how we define it
• 43:19
  so we can have a conversation and people can.
• 43:23
  Yeah, I'll put it on. LinkedIn when it's ready.
• 43:26
  Yeah, oh, oh, please send. Me the link when it's ready
• 43:29
  because then I can actually reference it in in the show
• 43:32
  notes, but people can. Can.
• 43:35
  Actually read it. So going back to to investors
• 43:43
  for a minute, investors still see Women's Health as a sort of
• 43:47
  niche topic, although that is now changing as we as we
• 43:51
  discussed. So how can founders reframe this
• 43:56
  to be the next big opportunity? Because you talked about the,
• 44:02
  the, the €1.00 in is €26 out part.
• 44:06
  I think there's there's a lot of value in there.
• 44:10
  But what else can founders say? I mean.
• 44:15
  It's definitely helpful that somebody like McKinsey came up
• 44:17
  with with a report saying we're losing $1 trillion every year
• 44:22
  and most opportunities because we don't take proper care for
• 44:25
  this health needs. I would say.
• 44:32
  Actually, I have written a guide for male investors who wants to
• 44:36
  invest into women's, female founders building femtech.
• 44:40
  So this is very specific, but I, I mentioned that because you
• 44:45
  think you have a business conversation when you go and
• 44:48
  raise money, but there is so many other things going on in
• 44:51
  that room that has nothing to do with business numbers.
• 44:54
  There's a lot of gender stuff, there's a lot of cultural stuff,
• 44:57
  there's a lot of communication stuff.
• 44:59
  And it's difficult to build that bridge where a male investor,
• 45:04
  which is typically still is, and a female founder building
• 45:07
  something for a need that this male body has never experienced
• 45:11
  and will never experience. So there are tips and tricks and
• 45:16
  that's what I tried to write down on this guy.
• 45:19
  But I would say the main message is if you are a man who wants to
• 45:23
  invest in Women's Health, you have to do a little bit of
• 45:26
  homework the same way you would have to if you wanted to start
• 45:29
  investing in crypto currencies or blockchain technologies like
• 45:34
  you go understand a few things and then.
• 45:39
  About the market and about the opportunities.
• 45:41
  And then also understand what all these gender and culture
• 45:44
  things are, you know, what is it that's happening in the room?
• 45:49
  But I mean, if, if somebody says it's a niche, I think as a
• 45:53
  female, a female founder, I will say that's very interesting.
• 45:56
  You think that here are all the reasons why I don't think that.
• 46:00
  And you know, and then and then I will say, and by the way, for
• 46:04
  our next meeting, I would love you to do your homework because
• 46:08
  this was an unenformed comment. And then but OK, so that's.
• 46:13
  Might be a little bit arrogant and maybe you can also do
• 46:15
  something in a corner from itself that is niche.
• 46:17
  But then I would say if you look at Women's Health as a category,
• 46:21
  it's a huge. Industry.
• 46:25
  You. Know and it and and to.
• 46:27
  Fill all the many gaps we see in this landscape.
• 46:30
  We have to do all these different things.
• 46:32
  So you should not regard this little one thing as niche, but
• 46:34
  rather that's part of filling this big picture, yeah.
• 46:39
  So maybe it's 1000 piece puzzle where you're looking at at
• 46:44
  something that is indeed one piece of puzzle, but it's part
• 46:48
  of the 1000 pieces that needs to be laid or put in place.
• 46:52
  Exactly, yes. And then I would also, in some
• 46:55
  very gently, kind of humble at a kind of friendly way, say, I
• 47:02
  might know something that you don't know.
• 47:05
  Because of the life. Experiences I've had and see.
• 47:09
  If there's a way to. Invite the people listening to
• 47:12
  say, ha, there might be something.
• 47:14
  I don't know. And this is difficult because
• 47:19
  our culture doesn't invite people to have that mindset when
• 47:23
  they're in positions to write checks or, you know, maybe they
• 47:27
  need somebody and they don't fit the picture of what they think a
• 47:30
  great leader will look like or what a great founder will look
• 47:32
  like or what it means to be ambitious or, you know, And so
• 47:39
  we have to. Somehow tease out.
• 47:40
  This openness where wait, you have to listen differently, you
• 47:44
  have to listen. With more sensitivity.
• 47:48
  More humbleness is there? Is there a way to?
• 47:51
  Sort of tease that at the start of the meeting to really invite
• 47:56
  people on the, let's say, especially investors to, to, to
• 48:01
  open their minds to the possibility that AI am a well,
• 48:06
  I'm not a female founder, but let's, let's suppose I'm a woman
• 48:10
  for a woman for a minute. I'm a female founder and I have
• 48:14
  a different experience which can teach you something.
• 48:19
  If you didn't know, because I'm I.
• 48:21
  Personally, I'm a huge fan of the starting with Tell me
• 48:25
  something I don't know. Yeah.
• 48:28
  Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I mean.
• 48:31
  I think if you, I mean, you can send the guide to them or you
• 48:36
  can read it yourself and say these are like the points where
• 48:39
  I think this conversation could get hung up because they don't
• 48:42
  quite get this and soon highlighted and say before a
• 48:44
  meeting, I'd love you to see these stats or I'd help you to
• 48:47
  understand that I might look, you know, maybe I look weird to
• 48:51
  you, but here are the reasons why you think that I can pull
• 48:54
  this off. Or, you know, and.
• 48:56
  But maybe most importantly, to give the founders walking into
• 49:00
  that pitch meeting the confidence to know that what
• 49:04
  they've seen in the market is a real opportunity to know that
• 49:07
  they know something that the person across the table might
• 49:10
  not know. Yeah.
• 49:13
  So, so this this guide, can we download it anywhere?
• 49:17
  Yes, yes, it's on LinkedIn. It's on my profile page there
• 49:22
  it's for free. And again, people are free to
• 49:25
  take it, copy it, change it more fit, make it fit their context,
• 49:30
  take parts out, disagree with some other parts.
• 49:33
  It's completely open source. OK, Well, that's that's.
• 49:37
  Very cool. So to wrap up, I want to ask you
• 49:41
  for some personal advice. So I'm building an AI coach that
• 49:47
  connects female founders with investors.
• 49:50
  And my first vertical, interestingly, is, is female
• 49:54
  health because I feel I agree that we have a huge challenge to
• 49:59
  solve there. And there's, there's, let's say,
• 50:04
  an extraordinary amount of value that especially female founders
• 50:09
  can bring there. But from your perspective, what
• 50:14
  is an essential element for that funding coach to do its job?
• 50:20
  I think there's a lot of like. Basic mechanics that you can
• 50:23
  learn as you raise money. You know, how do you filter the
• 50:27
  funds so that you talk and spend your time and energy on the ones
• 50:31
  that can actually fund you in your region, at your stage, your
• 50:34
  mom, the sector, etcetera. Do you go, you know, go pitch
• 50:41
  first to the funds that you don't desperately, desperately
• 50:44
  want on board so that by the time you get the meetings what
• 50:47
  you really want, you have practice?
• 50:51
  How do? You.
• 50:52
  Take feedback. How do you build a deck?
• 50:55
  How do you figure out how much money to ask for?
• 50:59
  How do you build urgency and competitiveness into the ground
• 51:03
  so that you have some negotiation power?
• 51:05
  I mean, there are many, many elements to fundraising, and I
• 51:07
  think taking some of the sort of knowledge that you can find in a
• 51:10
  book would probably be really helpful.
• 51:14
  Yeah, there's probably like, I mean, I'll encourage you to read
• 51:17
  this guide as well because I think sometimes what makes
• 51:20
  people sign the deal or not, it's not about the numbers.
• 51:25
  And the business idea is very invisible and kind of social
• 51:28
  things, You know, what are you wearing?
• 51:30
  How do you talk? Who do you bring to the meeting?
• 51:32
  Who did the introduction, blah, da, da, da, da.
• 51:35
  It's like a social dance and it's frustrating.
• 51:38
  And women are disadvantaged in that social dance.
• 51:42
  But I think it's good to know that it exists also for your own
• 51:44
  mental health. When you've had 100 Nos, you
• 51:47
  know. Am I doing something wrong, or
• 51:49
  am I part of a big systemic problem?
• 51:53
  But you're. Working up the wrong tree you're
• 51:57
  working up. The wrong tree.
• 51:58
  And also everybody is on a learning curve.
• 52:01
  I mean, you should take feedback.
• 52:02
  And probably your first version of the deck was really crap and
• 52:06
  you know, so yeah, but I love that you're building this and
• 52:12
  and hopefully many people will find it and, and, and end up
• 52:16
  raise money. Yeah.
• 52:19
  Yeah, well, thank you for thank you for this and thank you for
• 52:22
  all the wisdom and knowledge you've shared with us today.
• 52:27
  So you that in if people want to.
• 52:30
  Connect with you and learn. More about Sprint, that is
• 52:33
  SPRIND by the way. So with AD from D Archeon at the
• 52:38
  end or about the Femtec assembly, where would you like
• 52:42
  to send them? Thank you for asking, you can
• 52:46
  definitely find me on LinkedIn. I'm not a big social media
• 52:50
  person, so LinkedIn is pretty much the only platform where
• 52:53
  I'm. Really active.
• 52:55
  Right now cool and then we'll. Link to your LinkedIn page in
• 53:01
  the show notes. So Edatin, thank you very much
• 53:05
  for this conversation. Really enjoyed it.
• 53:07
  Thanks for the wisdom again listeners.
• 53:10
  Thank you very much for listening.
• 53:12
  And as always, until the next episode, keep being awesome.
• 53:29
  Well, that's it. Thank you for listening.
• 53:30
  To episode 140 of Women Disrupting Tech titled How a
• 53:35
  femtech pioneer is Fixing Women's Health infrastructure
• 53:39
  with EDA Did. Special thanks to Kasha Bokup
• 53:43
  for her help in getting EDA on the podcast.
• 53:46
  If you have any questions for EDA, please leave them in the
• 53:49
  comments on Spotify, YouTube, or Apple Podcast.
• 53:53
  I do read all the comments and I'll make sure you get an
• 53:56
  answer. If you want to connect with EDA
• 53:59
  or learn more about her work with the Femtech Assembly,
• 54:03
  please use the links in the show notes.
• 54:05
  As usual, you can find the show notes at Women Disrupting Tech
• 54:08
  O'clock, and on Subtech. You can find the link to the
• 54:12
  show notes in the caption. If you found this episode
• 54:15
  useful, please take a moment to rate and review the show on
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  Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube.
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  And if you haven't already, hit the follow or subscribe button
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  so you'll never miss a future episode.
• 54:28
  Once again, thank you for listening.
• 54:30
  I hope to see you in the next episode, and until then, as
• 54:33
  always, keep being awesome.