Latest / Claymore: Become Who You Are / #475 The Reality of Spiritual Warfare (#5); An Ignatius Guide For Everyday Living with Father Ryan Browning!

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#475 The Reality of Spiritual Warfare (#5); An Ignatius Guide For Everyday Living with Father Ryan Browning! · Claymore: Become Who You Are

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Become who you Are podcast, a production of the John Paul II Renewal Center.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I'm Jack Riggert, your host, and, as always, I'm glad you're with me.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: I hope you're doing well.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Crazy times we're in, but we're in Lent and this is a time to remember that we are dust and to dust we shall return.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a time really to turn back to God, to connect with God, to detach from other things that are going on in our lives, so important.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: As you know, usually on Wednesdays Linda Piper and I are unpacking John Paul's theology of the body, Very, very powerful work, work that really becomes more important as time goes on, with all the sexual confusion we're in and the trans rights and queering of the culture and all these different things We've launched, touch with who we are, our meaning and purpose in life, why we're even created, male and female.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: So that work is so important.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: But John Paul also did something else.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: He also understood the human heart, he understood the culture and the times that we're in and he understood that these are very evil times.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: So what's the solution to all this?
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: I am, you are.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: St Augustine said.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: You know the God who created you without you will not save you without you.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: This is a universal call to holiness.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: This is very clear through Vatican II, john Paul II and the saints and the mystics throughout the ages.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: This is for our turn, the lady, to step up, bring the shining light into the church.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: And so this is why, at this time, I thought this is a good idea to bring St Ignatius back, reintroducing a series to Father Ryan Browning and I recorded during COVID on the discernment of spirits, a work by St Ignatius.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: It's a very important understanding for those of us who are really.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Our eyes have been opened by this the evil all around us right now.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Very important understanding for the sense of the battle that we're in right now.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: I believe many of us do sense that.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: And so what do you do with that right?
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Well, the discernment of spirits is a timeless practical teaching passed down to us from St Ignatius of Loyola that are so helpful in these evil times we find ourselves in.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: As we're trying to read our own hearts, as we sit in prayer, try to understand what's going on with our own hearts, it's a good time to sit there with God and then think about what's going on in your heart and then say what's going on in my heart and of course that affects our heads and our anxiousness and everything and see if those are good spirits and bad spirits and how to react.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I really firmly believe that between now and the election, that things are going to get worse.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: And I say, you know it's amazing, because I started this podcast over four years ago because I sensed something was coming and I wanted to have a voice when that evil came.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Well, it was only a couple months after that that the COVID pandemic came, and I can feel this sense of foreboding almost as we get closer to the November election.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: So what can we do?
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Well, we can get deeper and deeper into prayer.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Cardinal Burke has got a novena going on.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Please join that.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: I put that in my last newsletter and it's going to be quite a journey and it's a time for all of us to really turn intensely again, with an intense focus on the crucified, our crucified and risen Lord, and to be able to spend more time in the sacraments and prayer and praying the rosary, reading scripture and then going able to spend more time in the sacraments and prayer and praying the rosary, reading scripture and then going out and doing good things in the world.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: But when you do all that, the sense of evil is still around us, and so it's good to have a clarity of heart in this battle.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: And this is what St Ignatius of Loyola gives us some very practical rules.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: He calls them or ways that we can understand this battle.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: So buckle up and get ready for today's episode.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I'm excited and pumped up to be here with Father Ryan Browning, pastor of St Thomas More in Elgin, illinois, and our spiritual director here at the John Paul II Renewal Center.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: We've been, or I should say Father has been, and I've been asking questions.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: He's been unpacking spiritual warfare and the discernment of spirits, and I'll just give you just a little outline of where we've been at.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: So we've had a number of previous episodes.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: If this happens to be your first, make sure you go back and review the other ones.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Not that you couldn't just jump in here, but it'll make more sense to you.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: In previous episodes we've outlined the spiritual battle that we're all in as part of the human race and, as Father said in an earlier episode, this spiritual battle can all be summed up as God has a plan for our lives, and so does the evil one, and we've been discussing St Ignatius, who gave us 14 rules or guidelines to assist us in the spiritual battle and in this discernment of spirits, which simply have to do with the ups and downs in the spiritual life of each of us.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: There are times, for instance, when we have a desire to pray, when we feel close to God.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: We feel this energy, our hearts are warm, we get up with renewed closeness to God.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Scripture comes alive for us, and I know in my own life marriage, my family life, seems to go good, easy, as does getting up in the morning for morning mass, when we had mass, of course, right and then at other times, for no reason, the bottom seems to drop out of this energy, it's harder to pray, and when we do, prayer is drier.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: It's a chore to get up to go to early morning mass.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: God feels distant.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: That closeness that we just had the day before seems to have left us.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: My patience is less with my spouse, my kids, maybe checking in on a friend becomes harder, and these ups and downs are going on all the time in our spiritual life.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: And along comes St Ignatius of Loyola with a teaching on exactly this type of experience that we all go through and, as Father said before, it's nothing to be ashamed of.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: All the saints go through this a closeness to God that St Ignatius would call consolation, and at other times, discouragement and struggle, which he calls desolation.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: And these all came out of his own experience when he crafted these 14 rules or guidelines in which he calls desolation.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: And these all came out of his own experience when he crafted these 14 rules or guidelines in which he helps us to understand these experiences and how to deal with them.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: So, father, it's awesome to be with you.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I hope you're doing well.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I know that you were a little bit sick, but you look recovered and are you ready to go?
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to be here.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: So that little bit of opening anything you want to go.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to be here, awesome, awesome.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: So that little bit of opening, anything you want to add to that.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: While you're doing it, I'm going to check just one thing.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: So go ahead, father, you're on.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, just to recognize that these guidelines that St Ignatius gives us are extremely practical and will help us to really live a discerning life, one that is paying attention to the movements of our heart and ultimately then recognizing where those movements are coming from and accepting the ones that are from God and rejecting those that are not from God, from the evil one or the world or the flesh, and it just helps us to continue to be more in tune with the Lord's voice and movement in our life.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if I could just say again, yeah, I know you just said that, but I've been practicing these since you and I have been starting to discuss this over a month ago, a month and a half ago, and how practical these are.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Because these spiritual practices, they flow directly into our lives, our work, our marriages, our relationships, the way we get up in the morning, the way we go to bed at night.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: So very, very practical, father.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: So I'm excited that we're going to move on.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about we're going to start at rules five and hopefully get through five, through eight here.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Tell us just a little bit about.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: We've come out of really defining what consolation and desolation are and now we're going to move into kind of a little different part of his rules.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: So where are we at, father, with the next ones coming up?
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: So rules one through four are the foundation, what you need to understand in order to then move forward.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: And so in living a discerning life, the most important thing is to become aware of the movements of our heart, to understand them a bit, so where they might be coming from, and then to accept the ones that are from God, those consolations, and to reject the desolations.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: And so that's going to help us continue to live a discerning life.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: And where really essential growth takes place in the spiritual life is in this everyday experience and discerning it and living it well and living it well.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: And so what we'll find is that over the next few rules actually from rules 5 through 14, it's really focused on how do we take action based on what we're experiencing, but especially in rejecting desolation.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: So because consolation, it's pretty easy, it's self-explanatory.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: When you're in consolation, you kind of drink it in, you hold on to it.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: He does have a couple of rules that he'll help us what to do in consolation, but overall that's pretty easy.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: People can take care of that themselves.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: What's difficult is when we enter desolation.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: So a lot of his rules are going to deal with what do we do in times of desolation, and that's where he's going to begin with Rule 5, which is one that you need to never forget.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Always remember Rule 5.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, so of all the rules here, this seems to be a foundational rule.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I know I've heard you say that before Rule 5.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Rule 5 is very important to remember, and you'll see why.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I'll just kind of read it here, and you'll see why I think whenever I read it.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: So Ignatius says the fifth in time of desolation, never make a change, but be firm and constant in the proposals and determination in which one was the day preceding such desolation, or in the determination in which one was in the preceding consolation.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Because as in consolation the good spirit guides and counsels us, more so in desolation the bad spirit, with whose counsels we cannot find the way to a right decision.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: So we never want to forget this.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: All right, that's what he says.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: It will get you safely through the darkness and desolation that we'll face at all times in life.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Right, there's the ups and downs of the spiritual journey.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: So you never make a change because that's what we want to do.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: You think of it in terms of, like the stock market, right, so many times we'll buy.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: We do the opposite of what we should do.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: We'll buy when it's going high because we feel comfortable with it.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: And then when things start dropping, like it has been recently, you want to immediately sell it off, when it actually it's the opposite of what you really want to do, but it's tough.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: So whenever you're in spiritual desolation, the first thing you want to do is like I'm going to give up my prayer.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: This doesn't matter.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: And so Ignatius gives us the best counsel Don't do that, you stick with what you had already decided to do, those determinations and proposals that you chose in a time of consolation before this desolation set in.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: You stay faithful to those.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, so let's just say I decided to in consolation, I'm feeling good and I decide to go to start a new Bible study, and I'm feeling pretty good about that, and that's on a Monday, and a Wednesday comes and Wednesday I wake up and I'm just not feeling that energy.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Something's bothering me now and I'm feeling a little down and I say to myself you know what?
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: I got a lot on my mind, things aren't really working out here, I really don't need to go to another Bible study, et cetera, et cetera.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: And what you're saying here with this rule, father, is if I made a decision or proposal while I'm in consolation, while I'm feeling in the Spirit and close to God, there's probably a good reason that I made that, hopefully.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: And now do not change that when I'm feeling down, right, I mean, that's the essence of that rule Whatever I made in consolation, whatever I decided to do, not to change that.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: If I'm going to change it, change it again in consolation, right, but not when I'm feeling down in desolation.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: You cannot make any big decisions in times of desolation because, as he says at the end of that rule, in consolation the good spirit guides and counsels us more, so in desolation, the bad spirit.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: So when we're making big decisions in desolation, we're being guided by the bad spirit and so we don't want to do that.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: We want to focus on okay, this is a normal part of desolation.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go to that because I made that decision in consolation and when I'm back in consolation I'll discern it again and make sure that it is correct.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: But I can't make that decision in desolation.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: I have to get through that desolation first.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: What?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: you'll find is you show up on Wednesday night and it's awesome.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: That's normally what you find.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: That's a good point.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: And the same thing.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: If I'm feeling down and I decided I was going to call a friend and that Wednesday I fell down and sure enough, I call that friend, despite of not feeling like it, and we have a great conversation and he actually starts to lift me up for whatever reason.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: So, yes, so there were two questions.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: I think you and I had talked about that.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: You kind of asked yourself you know, am I I think it was am I in spiritual desolation?
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Was that one of them, father?
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, Am I in a time of spiritual desolation?
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: And then you ask yourself the second question.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: If the answer is yes, you say okay, am I in this time of spiritual desolation, considering changing a spiritual proposal that was in place before the desolation began?
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: And if the answer is yes, then you say, okay, I can't do that.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, If the answer is yes to those questions, then you say okay, I can't do that.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: If the answer is yes to those questions, then you say okay, I know that this is spiritual desolation and I cannot make a change.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: It's just that simple.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Make it that concrete.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we'll come up with little excuses or something.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: This is just no.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: This is no.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Remember it as no.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: We're not making a decision on that.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: And that gets back to our three.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: Basis here is to be aware, right to notice or be aware of where we're at.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: We're in desolation now.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: So we're aware of that, to understand that we're there and maybe even start to understand, maybe, the reasons why we're there.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: But then to act and the act here is not to change anything it's one of the things we're going to remember to do is don't change any decisions I made while I was in consolation.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: So prayer life, et cetera, we're not going to change anything in desolation.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: So, and Father, one other thing here can you make a distinction between spiritual desolation and natural desolation or this natural feeling?
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Sometimes something did happen that morning, maybe my wife got in a car accident, right, and I am feeling down.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: And so could you make just that distinction here?
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Because we know that there are decisions you make and that's not necessarily a spiritual desolation, that's more of our everyday.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Look it, I'm not feeling good about this accident.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: What do I do?
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I have to change, I have to do something and take action, right?
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you will find that there are just non-spiritual desolation, right.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: So you wake up and you're feeling a little tired, a little depressed.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: You take a look at that and say, well, I need to get more sleep, or I need to get better at managing my time, and so you can make good decisions about that stuff, and just recognize, like okay, today's just a little bit rough.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Now, the key is, though, that if you don't deal with it and even pray about it, even though it's non-spiritual at the time, it can become spiritual desolation.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: And the difference is, when you get into spiritual desolation, you're going to have thoughts like well, god doesn't love me, he's abandoned me.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Why is he letting me experience this?
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: You're going to start reflecting these things toward God, and so, even in the state of non-spiritual desolation, it's good to bring it to prayer and to discern where did this come from?
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Is there something that I've done?
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Is there an apology that I need to give, or is it just I need to get a little more sleep and just be aware of my needs, my human needs, as well, yeah, so this rule in essence applies specifically, of course, to spiritual desolation, but also to non-spiritual desolation.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: When I'm down, like you said, even with the stock market or something like that or certainly when I don't feel good or I'm tired, it's probably not a good idea to make any kind of major decisions.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Anyways, right.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, maybe you need to go for a walk, you need to get some sunshine.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: You know, whatever it is like, you find little ways that can help pick you up out of that non-spiritual, so that it doesn't become spiritual desolation when it starts to referring to God move on, and I know there's more we could talk about with rule number five, and it's been awesome already.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: You know, it kind of took me off the hook some mornings, you know where I said you know, I don't have to make a decision here, I'm just going to enter into prayer.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: So that's been awesome.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: And so then rule number six seemed to be pretty important to me, even though I guess, rule number five, I'm focused and don't make a decision, don't make a change, but there are some actions that we do take, father, and so I think rule number six that you had mentioned to me before, this is what we do do, or at least there's some of the things we should do, right.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, five and six go together, of course.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: So we don't make any in number five.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: We don't make any changes to our spiritual proposals and practices that we had in place before the desolation began, but what we do change is ourself.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: So here's how Ignatius puts it.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so in the sixth rule Ignatius says although in desolation we should not change our first proposals, it is very advantageous to change ourselves intensely against the desolation itself, as by insisting more upon prayer, meditation, upon much examination and upon extending ourselves in some suitable way of doing penance.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: All right, so this is what we do in times of spiritual desolation.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Right, this is what.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: So when you see rules five and six together, they need to be seen together.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: You can think of it as in a football analogy right, rule five is defense, that's when the defense is on the field, and rule six is offense.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: So you're going against the desolation.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: So desolation God does not want us to stay in desolation.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: So these are things that we're going to do to start to work our way out of it.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: And I think it was so exciting to me because this from St Ignatius is this call to freedom again that Christ does not want to leave us in desolation.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: He's there, you know.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Very often we hear him say my peace, be with you, right, my peace I give to you and we know that.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: So when we're feeling in desolation and anxiety et cetera, we're not going to make a decision, but we are going to try to move out of that.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: And it sounds from the four methods that you just outlined there that I'm moving toward God right With this and increasing my seeking of grace and relationship with Him.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: And just one thing that we can talk about probably at the end of these rules, maybe spend a segment on desolation.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: The spiritual desolation that Ignatius is talking about is not the dark night that St John of the cross.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: It's a separate thing, and we can distinguish those things at the end, because that's always a question that comes up in our minds.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: This is spiritual desolation.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: This means that the evil one is trying to direct you in a wrong way, and so rule five is we play defense against it, we don't change anything, because then he can't have any power.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: And then rule six is I go against.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I go on offense against the desolation itself, changing myself.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: So God never wants us to just simply passively endure spiritual desolation.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to sit in it, kind of thing.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: No, no, no.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: We have to begin to make acts of hope and trust in God, and here are these tools that Ignatius gives us.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: And when he talks about to insist more upon prayer, what he really means in that is just simply the prayer of petition to God.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Right, Turn to God and ask for his help.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Jesus promised that he would hear us right when we turned to him.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: So you say Father, help me.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Lord, I know you're with me in this experience.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Help me to experience your grace.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: You know, Jesus, I trust in you, All those little quick prayers that we can offer up.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Lord, I know I'm in this time of desolation.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Clear the fog, Help me to fight through this.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Those types of simple prayers throughout the time of spiritual desolation.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Clear the fog, help me to fight through this.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: Those types of simple prayers throughout the time of spiritual desolation is what he means in that first one.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, awesome.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: And then the second one you mentioned.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Then I'm going to petition in prayer, I'm going to turn to God in prayer and I remember you mentioned to me look at, if you're praying 10 minutes every morning, you know, maybe push it out to 10 and a half, 11 minutes.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Just push it a little bit further and make that act.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: You know that you're not going to just take this land down and then.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: So now we're going to move on to the second one you mentioned, which is meditation.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: So can you tell us just a little bit about that, father?
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you want to spend time in meditation, which is this mental prayer of allowing the Lord's words through scripture, or meditating upon the truths of the faith in these different ways, to allow that to begin to be what's swimming around in our mind and our heart.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: So, for instance, go to your favorite psalm, psalm 23,.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: The Lord is my shepherd.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Right, there's nothing I shall want.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Go to those and pray just slowly, through those words.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Go to Psalm 130,.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: You know, out of the depths, I cry to you, o Lord.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: These are just.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Whatever Psalms speak to your heart, whatever stories of Jesus in the gospel, whatever healings, whatever it is that really speaks to you.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Go to your favorites and if you don't have them yet, then keep reading and write down those favorite ones that you can really go to in time and meditate upon God's fidelity in the past.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Right, so we can not only use the scriptures to help us do that, but then to go back in our own experiences and think of those times of consolation or those times where we remember God powerfully working in our own experiences, and think of those times of consolation or those times where we remember God powerfully working in our life to bring about resolution in something to draw us closer to him and meditate upon those, because many times we'll forget about those things.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: It's as if we've never experienced God in our life, so we have to meditate upon our memories as well.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the Psalms are like that, this crying out, aren't they?
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know right away, I'm not alone when you read some of the Psalms, these lamentations and just from the heart, this crying out from the heart God save me.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: These petitions, like you said.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: And then, and of course we know from reading these in the past, like you said, that my experience shows me that I'm going to get out of this.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I'm going to get out of this and it's just a matter of time, right?
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: So I've had these experiences of consolation and stuff in the past and sometimes in the going through spiritual desolation.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: I'll just kind of go back to those moments and think about them again and think, ok, look, how faithful God was, how he encountered me in these moments, and he's going to do that again, you know, and it's just a good reminder, like, ok, this is just a thing that I got to fight through.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what's going to be interesting you and I had talked about when we first came on, about just purist life itself.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, look at, people aren't coming to mass.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, just like the John Paul II Renewal Center.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, our incomes are going down.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: We're going to have expenses still going.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: I think we're going to probably look at this five, 10 years from now and say, wow, you know, somehow we got through this.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, who knows how it's an adventure.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: But I know from business Father in the past, being an entrepreneur there are times where I thought there's no way I'm getting out of this.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: There's no way my family is going to survive.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be able to keep feeding them.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: They're all going to die of starvation.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: I can't provide.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: I mean it's a very scary thing for a man.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And somehow I can look back and and a tough time sometimes, but we made it through it.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: And I can look back at those times now and know that God was really there.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: I could see it over and over and over again.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: So that's awesome and I think these are very important rules for us in where we find ourself you know at least taping this in the middle of a pandemic you know it can be.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously the evil one's going to use all of these emotions and struggles and fears that arise in our heart to kind of lead us away from God.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: So we're going to have to have these rules so we can fight against that, because obviously the Lord's still at work in this.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a great time, you know.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: First of all, people will have time, possibly right to actually study these a little bit.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And man, what?
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Like you said, how useful.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: I mean there may not have been an overall blanket of need for this than there is in our times for quite a while.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I mean there have been.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Of course, you know things in the past, but this is a worldwide event.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: And what a beautiful time, father, what a blessing to be here with you and unpacking these right now.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: The third one you said was what, father?
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Much examination or examination Is that with the third one here, when we're taking action against a desolation again now?
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: So the third little tip that he gives us is to do much examination, and what he has in mind by that is for us to recognize.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Right, it always goes back to those three things be aware, understand and take action.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: And so this, being aware that we're in a state of spiritual desolation, to say, okay, let me examine this.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: When did it begin?
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: So I started asking myself questions how did this get going?
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: When did it start?
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: And so I asked the Lord to show me, like, where did this begin and what was the kind of thing that started it, so that I can examine.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Is there something that I can do here?
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: We want to help me see clearly, because what happens is we can begin to find freedom if we stop for a moment and we look at a difference between myself in desolation, which is before I started asking this question to myself, reflecting on myself in desolation.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: So then I begin to reflect on okay, why am I in this desolation?
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: What's going on here?
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Where did it maybe begin?
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what a beautiful movement, Father.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Right To almost move out of myself and look down on what's going on in my life.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's a powerful thing, instead of being caught up in this kind of frenzy, this panic, this anxiety.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Look at those.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Things are happening.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: But now I'm just going to take a step almost out, examine, look down what happened maybe recently, what even happened this morning.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Why am I here and is there anything that I need to do about that?
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: And that's awesome.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: Just to be able to do that, just to stop the merry-go-round for a few minutes.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Stop, I think it was your word.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Stop being led around by our feelings and emotions for just a little while.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Pause and examine what's going on.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: You gave the example of was it a father?
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: A dad that was rushing out of his house or something?
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: What was that example?
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: I thought that was a good example that you gave me one time.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: You know you got a young father.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: He's got a really busy day at work and he's a little bit stressed out already in the morning, running a little late, like normally he would do his little routine with his little two or three-year-old, you know, and kiss his wife goodbye and those type of things before he'd leave the house.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: But today he was so stressed out and just wasn't thinking and he kind of runs past them and you know the little boy wanted a little attention before and he didn't give it to him and then he did recognize on his way out, like the kind of hurt in his wife's eyes as he was leaving.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: But he was just so preoccupied with everything that was going on.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: You know he rushed to work and so he gets at work and it's kind of he's a little short with people.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: He's still stressed out, you know, and this guy's normal routine would be to take some time at lunchtime and you know, just say a little bit of prayer, spend a little time in prayer over the lunch period.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: So as he's getting close to that in being in a state of spiritual desolation, at this point he is like no, I think I'll go to this other place and have lunch outside, which can be a source of temptation to him in many different ways and other ways.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: And so he recognizes finally what's going on in his heart and he says to himself, okay, well, okay, that desire to give up prayer and to go out and, you know, like, have a beer at lunch or something, that's a temptation and I need to pay attention that I'm in desolation.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: So he goes back and he does some examination when did this begin?
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: And he saw that it began because of the day right, it was stressed, and this and that, and after he had left his wife and son so abruptly without the normal kiss, goodbye and things like that, he recognized that was a source of it, so that he knew I need to call her and apologize.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And so he called and he told her how sorry he was and they of it, so that he knew I need to call her and apologize.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: And so he called and he told her how sorry he was and they make it up for to them and how sorry he was that he hurt his little boy's feelings because he didn't give him that attention.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And as he's doing that, the desolation begins to lift a little bit, and so by the time that he's off the phone and everything's kind of better.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: He enters into his prayer after lunch and everything changed after lunch so that he was able to enter into a more peaceful period of time.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: So that's going back and examining where might this have began and then taking action and the apologizing for being distracted and quick.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see people often.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm feeling down, I'm feeling desolation, and instead of taking the proper action, what I'm going to do is I'm going to grab the mouse and start, you know, monkeying around on, say, social media, or the remote on the TV right, go to the refrigerator and start to grab food out of there, and all of those things are compounding instead of helping, compounding and leaving me in that anxiety or that desolation.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: And so here I have the freedom to act.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Here I have the freedom to examine, to understand what's going on and to do something positive to get out of the funk, and that's a very empowering thing to be able to do that and understand that.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Once I do that, father, I know that the fourth thing was something about.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Was it penance?
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: What was the last one that you said?
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: The fourth one that we're going to do?
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: So we're going to pray more, or at least continue to pray.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Don't change any behavior.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Meditate and really try to understand what's going on in our hearts.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Read some scripture, something that's uplifting, be reminded that God has gotten us out and given us sufficient grace to get out of this in the past, and we will get out of this.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: We're going to examine what's going on at that time.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Why am I feeling like this and what should I do to act positively to get out of it?
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: And what?
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: The fourth one, father.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so then you want to make suitable acts of penance.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: So where our normal move and you actually just mentioned it is to go towards low and earthly things right, so, to pick up my phone and go to social media or even worse, sometimes right, or to turn on the television in this time and try to drown out the pain of spiritual desolation.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: And so what we need to do is the opposite, is go intensely against that desolation and those low and earthly things and to stand our ground.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: And the best way to do that is make little acts of penance.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: So if you're tempted to go on social media, then say, okay, I'll give it 10 minutes.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: That's going to be my act of penance 10 minutes.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: I won't pick up that phone, and if I still want to do it afterwards, then I will.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: And most of the time, what you're going to do is standing your ground against going to those low and earthly things is going to give you some strength and power.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Those low and earthly things is going to give you some strength and power.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: You know, or or you know, like you said, go into the refrigerator.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: You know you can find yourself in there for the third time and you're like why am I standing in front of this?
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: There's things I'm not even hungry anymore.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're, you're, there's a, there's the ache of spiritual desolation and so doing those little acts of penance and maybe it's adding an extra minute to your prayer time right, that's a little act of penance because that's really tough when you're in spiritual desolation but you do those things that go directly against that desolation, whatever it is that you're tempted to in the low and earthly way.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: And a tip is to make yourself a little card or piece of paper that fits in your Bible or whatever, with the things that work for you when you find yourself in desolation.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: So test these things out.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Little acts of penance you can write those down, the psalms or scripture verses that you want to meditate upon, the little short prayers that are helpful for you.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: And ways to do an examination, like have your little desolation helpful for you?
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: And ways to do an examination, like have your little desolation sheet that you can turn to yeah, that's awesome, yeah, be ready ahead of time.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: So, father, then rule number seven and I remember, you know, as a practical person, and I know that St Ignatius was a soldier and he was a very practical guy and I know that when he started these he was hit with a cannonball, you know, broke one leg and hurt, damaged the other one.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: So he's really going through some trials, right, and he has to endure these trials and he started to meditate, I believe, on these trials and the endurance and what was the rule then, father, number seven, as he's going through these things, Let one, he says, let one who is in desolation, consider how the Lord has left him in trial in his natural powers, so that he may resist the various agitations and temptations of the enemy, since he can resist with divine help, which always remains with him, though he does not clearly feel it, for the Lord has taken away from him his great fervor, abundant love and intense grace, leaving him, however, sufficient grace for eternal salvation.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: So one of the ways that it helps us to know this rule is that when we find ourselves in a time of spiritual desolation, I can trust that the Lord is giving me the sufficient grace I need to fight through this.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: So he's always going to be there.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: He's left us to our own abilities because he wants to strengthen us in this trial.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: He wants to see just how much we're made of to fight these things and to know that the grace is there even if we don't feel it.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: The grace to get through this is there even though we don't feel it.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: The grace to get through this is there even though we don't feel it.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: When you're going to need him, right and turn to him.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: I remember you and I I believe this is where I had brought up or you had brought up you know God kind of leaves you in trials at some point and he's just, he's going to leave you in your own natural powers.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: You know, pulling with with, with, drawing, uh, that feeling that closest to him because he doesn't want to be a vending machine.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: You know he doesn't want to be that.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Hey, I put a prayer in, right, and I get the solution out.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Uh, we, we, we need to, uh, move away sometimes from that, this idea that money or power, things are going to bring us pleasures and stuff, and sometimes the trial has to be some of those things will be taken away from us, right, and so we're left alone.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we're feeling stripped away so that we can then move and turn to him and say, okay, you know what, either I see that I don't need those things, or they've been taken away from me and it's time to turn back, get on my knees right and ask for help, ask for the grace.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: We know it's there, but sometimes I have to understand that I can't do this on my own.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Victor Frankl wrote the Man's Search for Meaning and, based on his experience in the concentration camps Awesome book.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so one of the things in there that he noticed was that those who had just a minimal perspective on the trials I mean awful, serious things, you know.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: For instance, they had certain dates in mind that they would get out right, and that date comes and passes like they fall apart.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Most of them die.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: It was only those who found meaning in where they were going through that survived.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Those who had God family like their whole deal was to make it through, to be with their family again or to trust in God in the midst of this awful, horrible thing.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Those were the ones who made it through.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Because it makes a difference how you see the trials that you're going through and if you see them with eternal meaning, for instance that anything God permits in my life he will use to make me holy right.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: That one helps me all the time to think of that.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Because when you have that deeper spiritual meaning to know that level of faith that it's going to be able to bring you through these trials, if you don't have that, it's much more difficult.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes it just it, for instance in this Victor Frankl's example, like it broke people to the point of they died after those days come and pass because that was their.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: They didn't have a deep enough meeting for yeah, I mean, you know that's, that's that thing.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: You know, if, if this is a good and loving God, why is he permitting this, you know?
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: And and what good is he going to draw out of this?
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, these are tough things.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine being in a concentration camp?
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: But I remember, you know just things in my own, in my own life too.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: You know, just go, oh my gosh, right Again.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Somebody gets in an accident, or it gets hurt or comes, you know, it has cancer.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: You know, how are you going to get through all that?
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: You know, and these are tough issues and, at the end of the day, if he's going to, if, if, if you're going to get through this, you're you.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: You know that there's just a lot beyond our control.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: There's a lot that money and power.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: They're not going to help us.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: No, and the key is to know that you can resist.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: You're given the grace to resist by God.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: He's always going to give you the grace to resist and that he's there with you.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: He's going to help you through it.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: That's what he wants us to get out of this rule, these interrelated truths like that the Lord is going to give us the grace always a sufficient grace and that he's going to help us get through this.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: So keep trusting in Him.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: It's really a deepening of trust in the Lord and His grace at work in the midst of spiritual desolation, even though I don't feel it.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: That's the key.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know that you mentioned and maybe you did it now and I missed it, but that God's always going to give us the grace for our eternal salvation, that that's always going to be there, that at the end of the day, you know God is going to be there.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: And again, and I think back this is if we don't understand that we're pilgrims here and this is a journey, and a journey to sainthood and a journey to holiness and a journey to union and communion with God.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: This life can be a pretty brutal life and I think well, I don't think.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: I know from my own experience in life that that joy, the only way that joy and happiness is coming back into my heart when I look around the craziness of this world, is to move toward God.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: And he does give me that, that peace, and he does give me that hope in the midst of this crazy stuff that's going on.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: You know, um, you know, look, again, we got this coronavirus going on and I was in the store and people are panicking.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: You know you could see a certain panic level, not everybody, um, but I'm getting a little older now and I've been through a number of things already and and and and I could say look at, this is awful, right, I mean, bad things are happening and there's no way around it.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: But in the midst of that, there's some strength and and and encouraged, in the midst of this, that we can find when we turn to, to, to God.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's awesome, father.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: If we're going to um, are we going to try to tackle number eight?
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Uh, I know eight's, uh, eight's a beautiful rule.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Do you want to do that now or you want to do that next time?
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: You can call it.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, why don't we do that next time?
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Cause there's too much stuff there to.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this was beautiful.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: One final thing on seven is the litany of desolation that comes to our mind when we're going through.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: It is I can't, I can't, I can't.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: And what it needs to be is I can because God will give me the grace.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: And you said this refocus and I and again from Sister Faustina you know, jesus, I trust in you.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean it's that that small phrase has done more in my life, right?
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Those quick phrases my dad used to say when we were young kids, just we'd be out in the yard and throwing the ball around and having fun and he would just say glory to God, and he would do that in consolation, and then when we were in you know desolation, it was down.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: And then he would say you know, god gives us the grace to get through this.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: You know, and Jesus, I trust in you.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: And so, yeah, it's a beautiful journey if we keep that in mind.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Father, any parting words?
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: What are we going to do next time when we get back?
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Then?
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Give us a little tidbit on eight, because I know eight.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: I've been practicing eight, father, and it is awesome.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: So you know, in Rule 8, he's going to give us some ways of thinking in the state of desolation that's going to help us to get through it.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Thinking in the state of desolation that's going to help us to get through it, and those are going to be very, very helpful, with patience and knowing that you'll soon be consoled.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: And then, using those, he'll direct us back to those means in rule six.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: And then rule nine is going to ask the question why?
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Why would a good and loving God allow me to experience this?
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: And so Ignatius is going to give us three possible answers for that.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: And then rules 10 and 11 will give us what to do in times of consolation, which he just gives us some good pointers to help us, in times of consolation, to prepare for desolation.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, hey, that's awesome.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Hey, father, it was beautiful.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Before I allow you to go here, I'm going to give you a guideline or a rule that if you would say a prayer for all of us, will you please, and for everybody listening here.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Sure In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Let's call my God to pour out His blessing upon all those who listen to this podcast.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: May their hearts be open to recognizing the Lord's grace at work, especially in consolation and in desolation.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: May they put to inaction these rules, these guidelines of St Ignatius that will bring them again closer and deeper in our Lord and in that journey with Him.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: And may Almighty God pour out his blessing upon you, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Father, it's a joy to be with you and thanks for everybody that's been listening.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Again, remember to subscribe to the podcast, write a review if you get a few minutes and, of course, like everyone else, our funds have dried up a little bit here at the John Paul II Renewal Center.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: So, if you're, if you're uh, if you've been lucky and blessed, uh, please feel free to share that with us.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: And, uh, and I'll put, uh, I'll put some of the scriptures that father had recommended in the past into the show notes.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: I'll have the books in the next two sessions.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you, father.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Appreciate it.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Thanks, jack, god bless.