Latest / The Vault: The Epstein Files / Mega Edition: Kathy Ruemmler And Her Epstein Related Transcript From Her Trip To Congress (Part 8-11) (11/7/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: Kathy Ruemmler And Her Epstein Related Transcript From Her Trip To Congress (Part 8-11) (11/7/26) · The Vault: The Epstein Files

0:00
Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the
0:03
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right
0:06
Speaker 1: back in to the Kathy Rumler conversation with Congress. Question
0:12
Speaker 1: by Mr. Lynch. Okay, did Mr. Epstein ever talk to
0:17
Speaker 1: you about the nature of his dealings with Mr. Black? Answer,
0:22
Speaker 1: I understood they had a business relationship, but I didn't
0:24
Speaker 1: know any more details than that. Mr. Lynch, yeah. What
0:28
Speaker 1: in any particular business? Rumler, no, I didn't understand the
0:31
Speaker 1: details of the business relationship. Question, were you ever aware
0:36
Speaker 1: of any abuse allegations against Mr. Black? Answer, no, not
0:40
Speaker 1: that I can. I know there has been some litigation subsequently, meaning,
0:44
Speaker 1: you know, after Epstein, you know, died in more recent years,
0:47
Speaker 1: there's been Mr. Black's been involved in some civil litigation.
0:50
Speaker 1: I'm aware of that. Mr. Lynch, what about affairs? Were
0:53
Speaker 1: you ever aware of Mr. Black being involved in any affairs? Answer,
0:58
Speaker 1: I don't remember at the time. I know there have
1:00
Speaker 1: been allegations again in the media covering civil lawsuits or
1:03
Speaker 1: civil lawsuits that allege an affair. Question, I see. And
1:07
Speaker 1: were you ever aware of Mr. Black requiring women to
1:10
Speaker 1: sign non-disclosure agreements in connection with any of that litigation? Answer,
1:15
Speaker 1: I didn't have knowledge of that. Mr. Lynch, okay, that's
1:17
Speaker 1: all I have. Question, were you aware that Brad Karp
1:21
Speaker 1: was working with Mr. Black on any of the things
1:24
Speaker 1: Representative Lynch just described? Answer, no. I knew that Mr.
1:29
Speaker 1: Karp and Mr. Karp's law firm were the primary law
1:32
Speaker 1: firm for Apollo, and at the time, Mr. Black was
1:35
Speaker 1: the CEO and chairman of Apollo. And in fact, the
1:38
Speaker 1: Apollo referral that I referred to earlier, I recall, came
1:42
Speaker 1: because Paul Weiss had a conflict on that particular matter.
1:46
Speaker 1: So there was an opportunity for another law firm to
1:48
Speaker 1: step in, whereas typically Paul Weiss was handling most of
1:52
Speaker 1: Apollo's matters. Redacted, thank you. That concludes our hour. We'll
1:56
Speaker 1: go off the air. Mr. Grant, we'll go back on
1:58
Speaker 1: the record, it's 1255, and I believe Mr. Biggs has
2:02
Speaker 1: some questions. Mr. Biggs, I do, thank you so much.
2:06
Speaker 1: And so I just want to clarify some things to
2:08
Speaker 1: make sure I understood them. Rumler, sure. Question, you mentioned
2:12
Speaker 1: that you knew Mr. Epstein had a girlfriend, she looked
2:15
Speaker 1: about 30, and her name was Karinia? Rumler, yeah. Question,
2:19
Speaker 1: and how did you know of his relationship with her? Answer,
2:23
Speaker 1: I met her on a couple of occasions and he
2:24
Speaker 1: introduced her as his girlfriend and referred to her, you know,
2:28
Speaker 1: from time to time, you know, general passing, as in
2:31
Speaker 1: a way that someone, the way that someone refers to
2:34
Speaker 1: their significant other, you know, Corinna and I, you know,
2:37
Speaker 1: went to, you know, this thing or that thing. Question,
2:40
Speaker 1: and you mentioned Darren Indyke. Did you know Darren Indyke
2:43
Speaker 1: previous to the 2019 indictment of Mr. Epstein? Rumler, yeah,
2:49
Speaker 1: I had met Mr. Indyke once in person. Biggs, Did
2:52
Speaker 1: you know he was Mr. Epstein, for lack of a
2:54
Speaker 1: better term, maybe his criminal defense attorney? Or someone that Mr.
2:58
Speaker 1: Epstein had retained, maybe even before the 2019 indictment? Answer,
3:03
Speaker 1: I understood Mr. Indyk to play a different role for Epstein.
3:07
Speaker 1: I understood that. Mr. Biggs a different role from what? Answer,
3:11
Speaker 1: I did not understand Mr. Indyk to be a criminal
3:14
Speaker 1: defense attorney. Biggs, okay. Question, I understood him to be
3:17
Speaker 1: his in-house counsel who actually worked more on like business contracts,
3:21
Speaker 1: you know, those types of things. Question, so were you
3:24
Speaker 1: surprised that ostensibly, it sounds like a commercial transaction attorney
3:29
Speaker 1: was putting together a defense team for Mr. Epstein? Answer, well,
3:33
Speaker 1: I understood that he was his legal, he was one
3:36
Speaker 1: of his legal advisors, but unlike the other legal representatives,
3:39
Speaker 1: the other lawyers who had, who, you know, had multiple
3:43
Speaker 1: other clients. My understanding is that Mr. Epstein was Mr.
3:46
Speaker 1: Indyke's only client. Yeah, he was like Tom Hagen. Remember
3:50
Speaker 1: in The Godfather, Tom Hagen had one client, same with Indyke.
3:54
Speaker 1: The only difference is Tom Hagen was actually a good lawyer. Mr. Biggs,
3:59
Speaker 1: would you say he was in-house? Answer, right. Question, okay. Answer,
4:05
Speaker 1: that's the way I thought about it and understood it. Question, okay.
4:09
Speaker 1: And so you received a call, I believe, from Mr.
4:11
Speaker 1: Epstein informing you that he'd been indicted and on perhaps
4:14
Speaker 1: the day that he was, that the indictment was announced? Rumler, well,
4:19
Speaker 1: not exactly. The sequence, as I remember it, is that
4:22
Speaker 1: he called me to tell me that he'd been arrested. Question, okay. Answer,
4:26
Speaker 1: but the indictment was, which would have been, just mechanically,
4:29
Speaker 1: what happens in general practice, I'm not talking about specifics,
4:32
Speaker 1: but from my experience as a prosecutor, an indictment is
4:36
Speaker 1: returned from the grand jury to a court, and then
4:39
Speaker 1: an arrest warrant is issued. So that's what I assumed
4:42
Speaker 1: had happened there. And then the indictment itself was unsealed
4:46
Speaker 1: and made public upon the arraignment date. Question, so did
4:50
Speaker 1: you hear from him that he had been arrested? Rumler,
4:53
Speaker 1: on the day of his arrest, that was my understanding
4:56
Speaker 1: that he was arrested and he called me and informed
4:58
Speaker 1: me that he had been arrested. Question, and if I
5:01
Speaker 1: remember your testimony right, it was a short conversation. He
5:05
Speaker 1: informed you that he had been arrested and you basically
5:07
Speaker 1: told him to call his lawyer. Rumler, yeah. Question, it seems,
5:12
Speaker 1: were you interested at all? and why he would have
5:14
Speaker 1: called you to tell you that he was arrested? Answer,
5:17
Speaker 1: it didn't surprise me, because again, I knew him, and
5:20
Speaker 1: I was, you know, quite a, you know, well-known defense attorney.
5:24
Speaker 1: And I think he thought that I was a good lawyer.
5:26
Speaker 1: And I think so in that regard. I guess I
5:28
Speaker 1: wasn't surprised. I know if I had been, if I
5:31
Speaker 1: had been like a tax attorney, and he called me,
5:33
Speaker 1: that would have been a bit more surprising. But given
5:36
Speaker 1: the nature of my practice, it didn't really surprise me. Question,
5:40
Speaker 1: But he didn't request that you provide any kind of
5:42
Speaker 1: counsel or advice at all? I know that when I
5:45
Speaker 1: practiced as a defense attorney, almost everybody asked for a
5:48
Speaker 1: little bit of advice when they would call. Ms. Rumler,
5:52
Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with that. Question, yeah, so kind of.
5:55
Speaker 1: I was surprised when you testified. Oh, he just said, hey,
5:57
Speaker 1: I got arrested. And you said call your attorney. Rumler, yeah. Question,
6:02
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know what more might have been said,
6:04
Speaker 1: if anything. Answer, again, to my recollection, it was a
6:08
Speaker 1: very short call. And he seemed to me to be
6:10
Speaker 1: in a state of shock. And I was shocked. I was,
6:13
Speaker 1: you know, stunned and didn't understand, you know, what the
6:17
Speaker 1: guy could possibly have been arrested for again, just, you know,
6:20
Speaker 1: based on my understanding. Question, so he didn't tell you
6:23
Speaker 1: what the allegations was or the charge was? Answer, I
6:27
Speaker 1: don't believe he did. And I'm not sure that he
6:29
Speaker 1: knew at the time. I'm not sure how much he
6:31
Speaker 1: was told. Because again, you know, the arrest would typically
6:34
Speaker 1: be executed by, you know, the agents, the FBI agents.
6:37
Speaker 1: And in my experience... They don't really get into great
6:39
Speaker 1: detail about, you know, what the indictment says or anything
6:42
Speaker 1: like that. Question, did he reveal whether he'd already talked
6:46
Speaker 1: to Mr. Indyke before he called you? Answer, I don't
6:49
Speaker 1: remember whether he did or not. In my mind, when
6:51
Speaker 1: I said you should call your lawyer, I was not
6:54
Speaker 1: thinking about Darren Indyke as a person he should call.
6:57
Speaker 1: I was thinking he should call his defense attorney. Question,
7:01
Speaker 1: so he had a different defense attorney? Answer, he did. Question,
7:04
Speaker 1: and who was that? Answer, Martin Weinberg. Question, and do
7:07
Speaker 1: you know if he had reached out to Martin Weinberg
7:09
Speaker 1: before he called you? Answer, I don't know. Question, and
7:13
Speaker 1: I guess I'll just leave that alone. I just have
7:15
Speaker 1: one more area. I wrote down just a few adjectives
7:18
Speaker 1: you used to describe Mr. Epstein earlier today. Extremely arrogant.
7:22
Speaker 1: Did I get that right? Ms. Rumler, yeah. Question, okay, avuncular. Ms. Rumler, yeah. Question,
7:29
Speaker 1: which is not a term we usually hear around this table,
7:32
Speaker 1: but I thought it was interesting. And you said that
7:35
Speaker 1: he was, I don't know if you used the term, inveterate,
7:39
Speaker 1: but you implied he's a mansplainer. Rumler, he was a
7:43
Speaker 1: mansplainer indeed. Question okay. Without asking you what a mansplainer is,
7:47
Speaker 1: I'll leave that one alone. It makes me wonder if
7:49
Speaker 1: you could, and this is not a question that is
7:51
Speaker 1: unique to you. This is a question that has been
7:55
Speaker 1: asked to many of the witnesses who knew him or
7:57
Speaker 1: work with him. Do you think that Mr. Epstein, the
8:00
Speaker 1: way you knew him, the way you described him, is
8:02
Speaker 1: the kind of man who would have ended up killing himself?
8:05
Speaker 1: Miss Rumler, uh, I believe he killed himself. Mr. Biggs,
8:08
Speaker 1: so that's a yes. Miss Rumler, yeah, I believe he
8:11
Speaker 1: killed himself. I don't know that I can shed a
8:13
Speaker 1: lot of light on whether he's the type of person
8:16
Speaker 1: who would kill himself, but I believe that he killed himself. Question, so, okay,
8:20
Speaker 1: I'm not asking for a psychological profile here. Just, you know,
8:24
Speaker 1: just you then were not surprised to hear that the
8:27
Speaker 1: unvuncular Epstein had killed himself? Rumler, I was very surprised. Biggs,
8:32
Speaker 1: you were surprised? Rumler, I was very surprised. And when
8:36
Speaker 1: I learned, when I learned the news, one of the
8:38
Speaker 1: first thoughts I had was, how in the world would
8:41
Speaker 1: he know how to do that? So, you know, that,
8:43
Speaker 1: that came to my mind. And of course, given, you know,
8:46
Speaker 1: my experience in the Justice Department, and when I was
8:49
Speaker 1: the Principal Associate Deputy Attorney General, you know, people would
8:52
Speaker 1: call that the paddag. When I was the paddag, the
8:55
Speaker 1: Bureau of Prisons, you know, fell under the DAG, the
8:58
Speaker 1: Deputy Attorney General's Office of Supervision. And you know the
9:01
Speaker 1: primary responsibility of the Bureau of Prisons, the Federal Bureau
9:05
Speaker 1: of Prisons, is to keep the community safe and keep
9:08
Speaker 1: the inmates safe. And obviously, for someone, at the time,
9:11
Speaker 1: with Mr. Epstein's profile, to have been in a situation
9:14
Speaker 1: where he could kill himself was a massive, massive failure
9:18
Speaker 1: at the Bureau of Prisons. Question, uh-huh? You haven't looked
9:22
Speaker 1: at any? Any report or anything like that? The post-mortem
9:25
Speaker 1: or anything like that? Rumler, I haven't. other than what
9:28
Speaker 1: I've read in terms of media coverage of those reports.
9:32
Speaker 1: But I haven't read, I believe the Inspector General did
9:35
Speaker 1: a report around the circumstances of Epstein's suicide, and I
9:38
Speaker 1: have not read that. Question, absolutely last question, because I
9:42
Speaker 1: want to make sure I get this right. Were you
9:44
Speaker 1: the first person that he called the day he was
9:47
Speaker 1: arrested for the charges? Rumler, I don't know. Biggs, okay.
9:50
Speaker 1: Thank you for letting me take time. Mr. Grant, yes, sir.
9:55
Speaker 1: Question by Mr. Grant. Just to follow up a couple
9:57
Speaker 1: things Mr. Biggs brought up. How did you hear the
10:00
Speaker 1: news that Mr. Epstein had killed himself? Answer, it popped
10:03
Speaker 1: up on my phone in a New York Post. You
10:05
Speaker 1: know how you get those pop-ups. Question, so it wasn't
10:08
Speaker 1: from an associate of his or someone in his orbit? Answer, no,
10:12
Speaker 1: I don't believe so. I learned through the media. Question,
10:16
Speaker 1: did you discuss it with his death, with anyone in
10:18
Speaker 1: his orbit? or any of his associates? Answer, well, in
10:22
Speaker 1: his orbit, I at some point discussed it with his lawyer. Question,
10:25
Speaker 1: and that lawyer being? Answer, Mr. Weinberg. And I certainly
10:29
Speaker 1: would have discussed it, discussed it with Mr. Karp, because
10:31
Speaker 1: you know, Mr. Karp knew Mr. Epstein. I discussed the
10:35
Speaker 1: client that Epstein and I shared, Ms. de Rothschild. Question,
10:39
Speaker 1: and gets cut off by Rumler. So those are the
10:42
Speaker 1: ones I remember. I remember I may have discussed it,
10:45
Speaker 1: Biggs jumps in again. Could I ask? There was a
10:48
Speaker 1: question I wanted to ask you with regard to Ariana,
10:51
Speaker 1: I believe, the Rothschild. And what was the extent of
10:54
Speaker 1: that relationship between Mr. Epstein and Miss Rothschild? Miss Rumler,
10:59
Speaker 1: it was a business relationship as far as I observed.
11:02
Speaker 1: He was, you know, an advisor to her. Biggs, was
11:05
Speaker 1: he managing the money? Answer, I don't know. I don't,
11:08
Speaker 1: not to my knowledge, but I wouldn't have any information
11:10
Speaker 1: about that one way or the other. Biggs, thank you. Mr. Grant,
11:14
Speaker 1: and to follow up on a previous point. You said
11:17
Speaker 1: that you discussed news of Mr. Epstein's death with his attorney, Mr. Rothschild,
11:22
Speaker 1: and Mr. Karp. I discussed it with them. What do
11:25
Speaker 1: you mean by that? What was the discussion? Answer, oh gosh,
11:30
Speaker 1: just an expression of shock, shock. And all these events,
11:33
Speaker 1: the arrest, the indictment, the suicide, were all quite shocking
11:36
Speaker 1: to me. And again, this is someone who I knew
11:38
Speaker 1: and I had dealt with, and so it was quite
11:40
Speaker 1: surreal to be, you know. And again, the media coverage
11:43
Speaker 1: around Epstein's indictment in 2019 was very extensive. And the
11:47
Speaker 1: idea that the Bureau of Prisons, you know, could have
11:50
Speaker 1: been so negligent in a core duty to have allowed
11:52
Speaker 1: him to commit suicide was shocking and appalling to me. Mr. Biggs,
11:57
Speaker 1: I have to go vote. Mr. Fishman, good luck with that. Ms. Rumler,
12:01
Speaker 1: thank you, Congressman. Mr. Biggs, yes, thanks. All right, folks,
12:05
Speaker 1: we're going to wrap up right here. And in the
12:07
Speaker 1: next episode, dealing with the topic we're going to pick
12:09
Speaker 1: up where we left off. All the information that goes
12:12
Speaker 1: with this episode can be found in the description box.
12:15
Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the
12:18
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
12:21
Speaker 1: where we left off with Kathy Rumler and her conversation
12:25
Speaker 1: with Congress. Question, Mr. Biggs. Ms. Rumler, to ensure the
12:29
Speaker 1: record is clear, I want to pivot briefly to a
12:32
Speaker 1: topic that we discussed during the previous hour. I believe
12:35
Speaker 1: that you were asked about clients that Epstein referred to you.
12:38
Speaker 1: Is that right? Answer, yes. Question, and there was an
12:41
Speaker 1: individual client that you did not want to provide the
12:44
Speaker 1: name for, correct? Answer. That's a consideration just for my ethical,
12:48
Speaker 1: you know, obligation. And given that it has nothing to
12:51
Speaker 1: do with anything, I think, that you're interested in, I
12:54
Speaker 1: just didn't feel like it was appropriate to say the
12:56
Speaker 1: person's name. Question. And you answered my next question, to
13:00
Speaker 1: be clear. This individual has nothing to do with the
13:02
Speaker 1: committee's investigation into sexual misconduct and trafficking conducted by Mr.
13:07
Speaker 1: Epstein and Ms. Maxwell? Answer. That's correct. This is an accounting...
13:11
Speaker 1: This is an accounting fraud case that had nothing to
13:14
Speaker 1: do with Mr. Epstein whatsoever. Question, has the individual ever
13:18
Speaker 1: been identified as a person of interest by this committee
13:21
Speaker 1: or the Epstein Files Transparency Act? Answer, no. Question, Mr. Grant.
13:26
Speaker 1: I want to turn gears a little bit. I know
13:28
Speaker 1: that you've mentioned the gifts you received in your opening
13:31
Speaker 1: statement today, and I know in previous hours, it's loosely
13:34
Speaker 1: been brought up. But just to make sure that we
13:36
Speaker 1: have a clear record in accounting of the gifts, I'm
13:39
Speaker 1: going to go through a lot of them. Starting with
13:41
Speaker 1: my first question, being, did Mr. Epstein give you gifts
13:44
Speaker 1: over the course of the relationship? Answer, yes he did. Question,
13:48
Speaker 1: and what was, when did you receive the first gift
13:51
Speaker 1: from Mr. Epstein? Answer, oh gosh. I believe it was
13:56
Speaker 1: when I was flying to Geneva for my first meeting
13:58
Speaker 1: with the Rothschild Bank, and he really, without my knowledge,
14:01
Speaker 1: you know, upgraded my flight. I learned that I had
14:04
Speaker 1: been upgraded, you know, when I went to board the flight,
14:07
Speaker 1: they gave me a different boarding pass. Question, and this
14:10
Speaker 1: was an upgrade to first class? Answer, it was from
14:13
Speaker 1: business to first class, yes. Question, and what would you
14:16
Speaker 1: say is the biggest, most lavish, most expensive gift that Mr.
14:20
Speaker 1: Epstein provided you? Answer, the most lavish gift that he
14:23
Speaker 1: tried to give me, I did not accept. I guess
14:25
Speaker 1: it's called a jet card. But it's essentially, if you
14:28
Speaker 1: can imagine, like if you give someone like a Starbucks card,
14:31
Speaker 1: this is a card that you can use to charter
14:33
Speaker 1: a plane. And it was the face value of it.
14:36
Speaker 1: I mean, there wasn't like a physical card, but it
14:39
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I'm giving you this jet card. The
14:41
Speaker 1: face value is $ 50, 000. I thought it was excessive and
14:45
Speaker 1: I don't charter private planes. And it was nothing that
14:48
Speaker 1: I was ever going to do, you know, for my,
14:51
Speaker 1: for myself. And I, you know, just declined it. Question.
14:54
Speaker 1: And do you know when he would have tried to
14:56
Speaker 1: provide you this jet card? Answer. Yeah, that was ostensibly
15:00
Speaker 1: a birthday gift for my birthday in April of 2019. question,
15:05
Speaker 1: thank you for that. So over the course of the
15:08
Speaker 1: committee's investigation, we've identified numerous other gifts. I will stipulate
15:14
Speaker 1: to you that I'm using the term gifts pretty broadly. Answer, okay. Question,
15:18
Speaker 1: so the first one I would like to talk about
15:20
Speaker 1: is Mr. Epstein providing you flowers. On how many occasions
15:24
Speaker 1: in total did Mr. Epstein, either personally or through his
15:27
Speaker 1: employees or agents, provide you flowers to the best of
15:31
Speaker 1: your recollection? Answered to the best of my recollection it
15:33
Speaker 1: was only once, but it's possible that it was other times.
15:37
Speaker 1: My memory is that he sent me flowers once when
15:39
Speaker 1: I was sick, along with chicken soup, which is ironic
15:43
Speaker 1: because I don't eat chicken, and so you know the
15:44
Speaker 1: chicken soup didn't get eaten. Question, and did Mr. Epstein
15:48
Speaker 1: ever pay for your facials at Bliss Soho? Answer, not
15:52
Speaker 1: that I remember, but it's certainly possible. Question, did Mr.
15:55
Speaker 1: Epstein provide or pay for a massage for yourself at
15:58
Speaker 1: the Mandarin Oriental? This would have been, both of these
16:02
Speaker 1: would have been for Valentine's Day, around Valentine's Day in 2016. Answer,
16:07
Speaker 1: my memory was that it was a spa day gift,
16:09
Speaker 1: was actually a holiday gift, so it was more of
16:11
Speaker 1: a Christmas gift, that didn't get used or whatever. And
16:14
Speaker 1: my memory was, it was actually the Peninsula Spa, not
16:18
Speaker 1: the Mandarin. But again, it was 10 years ago, so
16:20
Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure. Question, did Mr. Epstein ever pay
16:24
Speaker 1: for a hair blowout or haircut at Fakai Salon for you,
16:27
Speaker 1: on or around Valentine's Day in 2016? Answer, I recall
16:32
Speaker 1: that he paid or insisted on paying for a haircut
16:34
Speaker 1: or a blowout for both me and our shared client,
16:37
Speaker 1: Ariane Rothschild. It probably was on that occasion. Question, did
16:41
Speaker 1: you find it strange or unusual you were getting gifts
16:44
Speaker 1: on or around Valentine's Day from Mr. Epstein? Answer again,
16:48
Speaker 1: I don't believe that these were Valentine's gifts. Question, we
16:52
Speaker 1: can go through the rigmarole of putting more documents in
16:55
Speaker 1: front of you, but I will stipulate to you that
16:57
Speaker 1: the email that I'm referring to you is from February 12th, 2016. Question, okay.
17:03
Speaker 1: Isn't Valentine's Day on February 14th? Question, yes. Answer, okay. Question,
17:08
Speaker 1: that's why I said on or around Valentine's Day. Answer, yeah.
17:12
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't remember it being a thing that
17:15
Speaker 1: he would like send me Valentine's gifts. He definitely would
17:18
Speaker 1: send me a gift on my birthday. And he was,
17:20
Speaker 1: you know, he was a pretty prolific gift giver. Question,
17:23
Speaker 1: and sticking specifically to the Fakai Salon, On how many
17:27
Speaker 1: occasions did you get your hair done, cut, blow dried, etc.
17:30
Speaker 1: at Sakai Salon? Answer gosh. The typical cadence for a
17:34
Speaker 1: woman's haircut, like once every like 10 weeks or so.
17:38
Speaker 1: But you know, the Sakai Salon closed at some point.
17:41
Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly when, but many years ago it closed.
17:44
Speaker 1: And the building that it was in, the Henry Bendel
17:46
Speaker 1: building in New York City, the whole got hit with
17:49
Speaker 1: the retail sector turned down and the whole building shut down.
17:52
Speaker 1: So I couldn't tell you. But what I can tell
17:55
Speaker 1: you is that I paid for the vast majority of
17:58
Speaker 1: my haircuts and continue to as an adult woman. I'm
18:01
Speaker 1: pretty capable of paying for my own hair. Question, are
18:04
Speaker 1: you aware of how many times Mr. Epstein would have
18:07
Speaker 1: paid for your hair services at Fakai Salon? Answer, I
18:10
Speaker 1: have no idea, but it was probably on, you know,
18:13
Speaker 1: one or two occasions. Question, during these occasions, were the
18:17
Speaker 1: services provided by Frederick Fakai himself or other associates at
18:21
Speaker 1: the salon? Answer, oh, other associates. You know, Frederick Fakai
18:25
Speaker 1: is like a franchise, and there were multiple Frederick Fakai
18:28
Speaker 1: salons in New York City, and I think elsewhere, actually. Like,
18:32
Speaker 1: so you know, it's like Vidal Sassoon. And so I've
18:35
Speaker 1: never met Frederick Fakai, or I wouldn't recognize him if
18:38
Speaker 1: he walked in here. Question, so to be clear, you've
18:41
Speaker 1: never been introduced to Frederick Fakai by Mr. Epstein or
18:44
Speaker 1: anyone else? Answer, no. Question, are you aware of Mr.
18:48
Speaker 1: Epstein trying to provide you a massage at Urban Detox
18:51
Speaker 1: in New York? On March of 2016? Answer, that does
18:55
Speaker 1: not ring any bells. Question, are you aware of Mr.
18:58
Speaker 1: Epstein paying for a spa day at the Four Seasons
19:01
Speaker 1: in D.C. for you? And this also would have been,
19:04
Speaker 1: this would have been August of 2016. Answer, I do
19:08
Speaker 1: remember that, yes. Question, and what exactly did you get
19:11
Speaker 1: done at the Four Seasons? Answer, so I believe I
19:14
Speaker 1: have the time frame right. That it was either before
19:17
Speaker 1: or after I was either about to start or it
19:20
Speaker 1: was after I had finished a big trial. and trials
19:22
Speaker 1: are stressful things. And so he was, you know, again,
19:25
Speaker 1: being nice by saying, you should go get a massage.
19:29
Speaker 1: You seem stressed out, which I'm sure I was. Question,
19:32
Speaker 1: and did Mr. Epstein, in fact, pay for the massage
19:35
Speaker 1: at the Four Seasons? Answer, I believe that he had
19:38
Speaker 1: his assistant, you know, call and say, you know, please book.
19:41
Speaker 1: She either made the appointment for me, or I made
19:43
Speaker 1: the appointment, and she called and said, it should be,
19:45
Speaker 1: you know, paid for on this credit card. Question, and
19:48
Speaker 1: you're aware on how many occasions in total Mr. Epstein
19:51
Speaker 1: paid for massages for you? Answer, I don't know, but
19:54
Speaker 1: it would have been you probably just identified the two
19:57
Speaker 1: occasions in which he gave me as gifts a visit
20:00
Speaker 1: to a spa. The one occasion at the Four Seasons
20:03
Speaker 1: and one occasion I thought it was the Peninsula, but
20:06
Speaker 1: maybe it was the Mandarin Oriental. I don't remember. Miss Toland, Question,
20:10
Speaker 1: seeing as the nature of the gifts we've covered so far, flowers,
20:14
Speaker 1: spa appointments, and massages, did you ever interpret these gifts
20:18
Speaker 1: to be a romantic gesture or a flirtatious gesture from Mr. Epstein? Answer, no,
20:23
Speaker 1: I did not interpret it that way at all. Question, well,
20:26
Speaker 1: how did you? Answer, well, again, the haircuts, you know,
20:29
Speaker 1: the haircut was something that he insisted on, you know,
20:32
Speaker 1: doing for both me and our shared client. He was
20:34
Speaker 1: obviously an extremely wealthy person, and it was his way,
20:38
Speaker 1: it seemed to me, to be his way of maintaining
20:40
Speaker 1: relationships with people. And by that, I mean, you know,
20:43
Speaker 1: professional relationships. And in business, particularly, in professional services, one
20:48
Speaker 1: thing that happens all the time, but not for me,
20:51
Speaker 1: because I don't golf, but, you know, business colleagues or
20:54
Speaker 1: clients or other associates will invite people to play golf
20:57
Speaker 1: at their private country club. And there are guest fees,
21:00
Speaker 1: and those guest fees can run, you know, up to $ 1, 000.
21:04
Speaker 1: I didn't golf. You know, I don't like really go
21:07
Speaker 1: to like the Knicks games. And so I think he
21:09
Speaker 1: interpreted it as I'm a female professional and I had
21:12
Speaker 1: quite a stressful job and I was traveling all the time.
21:15
Speaker 1: And you know, that's the thing that you give to
21:18
Speaker 1: a female professional. You give her a spa day. That's
21:21
Speaker 1: how I took it. Question. So they didn't strike you
21:23
Speaker 1: as odd or concerning answer. No question. Okay. Mr. Grant.
21:28
Speaker 1: And you're aware that Mr. Epstein paying for the glam
21:30
Speaker 1: squad to come to your New York apartment for hair
21:33
Speaker 1: and makeup. Answer. I have a vague recollection of something
21:36
Speaker 1: like that, but I didn't. I don't believe it ever happened.
21:39
Speaker 1: I know that the glam squad is basically it's sort
21:41
Speaker 1: of like TaskRabbit where, you know, I think there's an
21:44
Speaker 1: app and you can call and have them like come
21:46
Speaker 1: to your house and do your makeup. But I've only
21:49
Speaker 1: had my makeup done once and I remember it because
21:51
Speaker 1: I thought it looked weird and it was actually before
21:54
Speaker 1: a state dinner. question, you've mentioned that your one first
21:58
Speaker 1: class trip that Mr. Epstein provided to you, going to Geneva.
22:01
Speaker 1: Were there any other trips which Mr. Epstein paid for,
22:04
Speaker 1: an upgrade to first class? Outright booked you a first
22:07
Speaker 1: class ticket, or bought you a train ticket? Answer, there
22:11
Speaker 1: may have been one other occasion, in which I was
22:13
Speaker 1: traveling to Geneva, that he asked his executive assistant, again,
22:17
Speaker 1: that's where the Rothschilds Bank was, and he asked his
22:19
Speaker 1: assistant to book for me, and you know, and I said,
22:23
Speaker 1: you don't really need to do that. If I'm remembering
22:26
Speaker 1: this right, on one occasion, I was going to travel
22:28
Speaker 1: to Geneva around the Christmas holiday, and he asked his
22:31
Speaker 1: assistant to book the flight for me, which I thought was,
22:34
Speaker 1: I thought it was quite rude to ask his assistant
22:36
Speaker 1: to book a flight for me. He was, you know,
22:39
Speaker 1: asking her on Christmas Day. And I felt quite apologetic
22:43
Speaker 1: to her that he was asking her to do this,
22:45
Speaker 1: which I didn't need him to do. I was very
22:47
Speaker 1: capable of buying my own plane ticket and making my
22:50
Speaker 1: own flight reservation. question and did mr epstein ever set
22:53
Speaker 1: up a dentist or doctor appointment for on your behalf
22:57
Speaker 1: answer he recommended a dentist in new york i had
23:00
Speaker 1: to get a root canal and so i was like
23:03
Speaker 1: crazy enough to get a root canal and a wisdom
23:05
Speaker 1: tooth which i would not recommend that anyone ever do
23:08
Speaker 1: you know i was kind of new to new york
23:10
Speaker 1: because i had spent my whole career in washington and
23:13
Speaker 1: he knew tons of people and so he recommended this
23:16
Speaker 1: guy to do a root canal and then you know
23:19
Speaker 1: also a dentist In addition, he had a friend who
23:21
Speaker 1: was an oncologist, and I met her on, you know,
23:24
Speaker 1: one occasion at the townhouse. And she was talking about
23:27
Speaker 1: her work, which she was very focused, in particular, on
23:30
Speaker 1: breast cancer. And so he was introducing us, you know,
23:34
Speaker 1: and he was saying, she's done all this great work
23:36
Speaker 1: on breast cancer, etc., etc. And then she went on
23:40
Speaker 1: to tell some stories about how important early detection is
23:43
Speaker 1: for breast cancer, and how it just makes all the
23:45
Speaker 1: difference in the world. And in the context of that conversation...
23:49
Speaker 1: I made the comment that I had never had a mammogram. Again, I've,
23:52
Speaker 1: you know, been working hard in government. And as you
23:55
Speaker 1: all know, working in government, you oftentimes like fail to
23:58
Speaker 1: do things like go to the dentist and fail to
24:01
Speaker 1: do all these basic things. And so when I said that,
24:04
Speaker 1: that I had never had a mammogram at the time,
24:06
Speaker 1: you know, I was in my mid forties and there
24:09
Speaker 1: was kind of like shock and horror expressed. And, you know,
24:11
Speaker 1: both Epstein, you know, and his friend who was the
24:14
Speaker 1: oncologist both insisted that I immediately make an appointment and
24:18
Speaker 1: at her breast clinic to get a mammogram. Question, and
24:21
Speaker 1: who was this oncologist? Answer, Eva Dubin. Question, and did Mr.
24:25
Speaker 1: Epstein pay for these appointments, or visits, rather? Answer, no,
24:29
Speaker 1: I don't believe. They were all covered by insurance, as
24:32
Speaker 1: I recall. Question, did Mr. Epstein ever give you an
24:36
Speaker 1: Apple TV or Apple TV products? Answer, he gave me
24:39
Speaker 1: an Apple Watch. I don't think Apple has a TV.
24:42
Speaker 1: I don't think so. He did give me an Apple Watch. Question,
24:45
Speaker 1: not any of the Apple TV devices. That you can
24:47
Speaker 1: stream other apps off of? Answer. Oh, those little black boxes? Question. Yes. Answer.
24:54
Speaker 1: I don't remember that. It's possible. But he did give
24:56
Speaker 1: me an Apple Watch as a Christmas gift. Question. And
24:59
Speaker 1: that was an Apple Watch with a Hermes band. Is
25:01
Speaker 1: that correct? Answer. Yes. Question. And did Mr. Epstein provide
25:06
Speaker 1: you with a Fendi coat and bag? Answer. Yes. Question.
25:09
Speaker 1: And do you remember roughly when you would have received those? Answer.
25:12
Speaker 1: I don't. Question. Did it strike you as odd to
25:15
Speaker 1: receive a coat and bag? From Mr. Epstein? Answer, not really.
25:19
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, he typically would send as a
25:22
Speaker 1: birthday gift. He would at least send me a handbag. And,
25:25
Speaker 1: you know, I assume that he, you know, had his
25:27
Speaker 1: executive assistant basically go to the handbag closet that he
25:30
Speaker 1: had at his house. It seemed like very, you know,
25:33
Speaker 1: not a particularly personalized gift. You know, I think for
25:36
Speaker 1: a woman, you know, leather goods, you know, handbags or
25:39
Speaker 1: wallets or, you know, scarves are very kind of, you know, common,
25:42
Speaker 1: you know, the common gift. Question, so were you not
25:45
Speaker 1: part of the decision-making process in selecting these bags or coats?
25:49
Speaker 1: They were just randomly gifted to you? Answer, in most
25:52
Speaker 1: every instance, the answer to that is yes. I believe
25:55
Speaker 1: that he, the Fendi bag that you just mentioned, I
25:57
Speaker 1: believe that he sent me an online picture of it.
25:59
Speaker 1: You know, do you like the bag? You know, kind
26:01
Speaker 1: of thing. But the other ones, no. The other ones
26:04
Speaker 1: just came as they were. Question, and either probably him
26:08
Speaker 1: or his assistant picked them out for you? Answer, I certainly...
26:12
Speaker 1: Could not have imagined that he was picking them out
26:13
Speaker 1: for himself. Question, okay, so he wasn't trying to style
26:17
Speaker 1: you with certain pieces in any way? Answer, no, no.
26:20
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't have that impression. All right, folks, we're
26:22
Speaker 1: going to wrap up right here. And in the next
26:24
Speaker 1: episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up
26:26
Speaker 1: where we left off. All the information that goes with
26:29
Speaker 1: this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone?
26:33
Speaker 1: And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
26:38
Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to pick up where we left
26:39
Speaker 1: off with Kathy Rumler. and her interview with Congress. Mr. Grant, question.
26:45
Speaker 1: And the last main gift I'll bring up is the
26:48
Speaker 1: Hermes bag. I believe it was approximately a $ 10, 000 bag.
26:53
Speaker 1: Did you receive that gift from Mr. Epstein? Answer, I did. Question,
26:57
Speaker 1: and did you? Similar question. Just asked, were you involved
27:00
Speaker 1: in picking out that gift at all? Answer, not that
27:03
Speaker 1: I remember. I do remember the circumstances of the gift, however.
27:07
Speaker 1: And the circumstances were? that I had mentioned earlier, that
27:11
Speaker 1: in 2016, I had done a trial that was where
27:13
Speaker 1: the damages, it was in federal court, in California, you know,
27:17
Speaker 1: in Orange County. So it was south of LA, and
27:20
Speaker 1: the damages at stake were quite big. I don't remember exactly,
27:24
Speaker 1: but I believe the damages claim at least was, you know,
27:27
Speaker 1: several hundred million dollars. And I was representing a foreign bank.
27:32
Speaker 1: This was not the Rothschilds Bank. It was a different bank.
27:35
Speaker 1: And then, you know, trial had some publicity around it, And,
27:38
Speaker 1: you know, the publicity around it would have suggested that
27:41
Speaker 1: this would have been a very difficult case to defend
27:44
Speaker 1: and that my client, which was a foreign bank, it
27:46
Speaker 1: was actually a foreign Middle Eastern bank, was not very
27:50
Speaker 1: popular defendant in California. And I won the trial. And
27:53
Speaker 1: so it was a complete defense verdict. And so there
27:56
Speaker 1: was some media reporting in the legal press around, in particular,
28:00
Speaker 1: my performance. You know, I had given the closing argument
28:03
Speaker 1: in the case and he sent me a bag as
28:05
Speaker 1: a congratulations gift. And I received a lot of other
28:08
Speaker 1: congratulatory gifts after winning the trial from other clients and,
28:12
Speaker 1: you know, other associates. Mr. Grant, so in short, this
28:16
Speaker 1: gift also did not strike you as being odd in
28:18
Speaker 1: any way, answer no. I mean, it was, it didn't
28:22
Speaker 1: strike me as odd coming from him, given his wealth,
28:25
Speaker 1: and given his general kind of, you know, he was,
28:28
Speaker 1: he was kind of an over-the-top guy, if you know
28:30
Speaker 1: what I mean. And so, you know, whereas I might
28:33
Speaker 1: have gotten a bottle of really nice champagne, you know,
28:36
Speaker 1: from another client, this guy, sends a Hermes bag. This
28:40
Speaker 1: was kind of his. This was kind of, you know,
28:43
Speaker 1: his thing. Question. And one of the main points of
28:47
Speaker 1: the committee's investigation is how Epstein and Maxwell surrounded themselves
28:51
Speaker 1: with influential people, whether that be other billionaires, people in government,
28:55
Speaker 1: people in universities, and well-known. Did you ever get the
28:59
Speaker 1: impression that due to your past working in the White
29:02
Speaker 1: House Counsel's Office, being a very prominent attorney, first in D.C.
29:06
Speaker 1: and then in New York, that Mr. Epstein was trying
29:08
Speaker 1: to provide you with these gifts to keep you in
29:10
Speaker 1: his circle and your connections in his circle? Answer, I
29:15
Speaker 1: did not believe that at the time. And the reason
29:17
Speaker 1: why I didn't, not only didn't believe it, it didn't
29:20
Speaker 1: even cross my mind. And the reason is that, you know,
29:23
Speaker 1: when you leave, when you leave the government service, which,
29:25
Speaker 1: you know, some of you may do at some point
29:27
Speaker 1: in time, you start over. And, you know, yeah, I
29:31
Speaker 1: had been the White House counsel, but guess what? That
29:33
Speaker 1: was yesterday. And here's today. And so I had to
29:36
Speaker 1: build a practice. I had to perform well and I
29:39
Speaker 1: had to do the work. And I was a lawyer
29:41
Speaker 1: in private practice. I didn't have the ability to, you know,
29:44
Speaker 1: do anything special for him. I wasn't. I was never
29:47
Speaker 1: even asked to do, you know, I wasn't asked to,
29:50
Speaker 1: you know, call somebody in government or anything like that.
29:53
Speaker 1: And so, you know, in my mind, this was a
29:55
Speaker 1: guy who liked to give people gifts. In my mind,
29:58
Speaker 1: they were inconsequential to me. in the private practice of law,
30:02
Speaker 1: but also just in professional services generally. People are giving
30:06
Speaker 1: each other gifts all the time. As I noted, it's either,
30:08
Speaker 1: you know, tickets to Knicks games, tickets to the US
30:11
Speaker 1: Open was a big thing. You know, it's a big
30:13
Speaker 1: thing in New York. You know, trips on private planes,
30:17
Speaker 1: rounds of golf, flowers, wine, champagne, you know, all those
30:20
Speaker 1: kinds of things. It's very common. And while, you know,
30:23
Speaker 1: he may have been a little bit extra, it didn't
30:25
Speaker 1: seem extra to me in terms of the significance to
30:28
Speaker 1: him in light of his, you know, wealth. and they
30:31
Speaker 1: were just inconsequential to me. And at the time, you know,
30:34
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to have been, had some success
30:36
Speaker 1: in my career, and you know, I was very lucky
30:38
Speaker 1: to be well compensated. And there is nothing that he
30:42
Speaker 1: ever gave me that I could not have easily paid
30:44
Speaker 1: for myself. And as I said, the one thing he
30:47
Speaker 1: tried to give me that I just thought was too
30:49
Speaker 1: over the top, I said it's just too over the top.
30:52
Speaker 1: I appreciate the gesture, but no thank you. Question, thank
30:56
Speaker 1: you for that. Did Mr. Epstein ever provide you any
30:59
Speaker 1: cash gifts? Answer, no. Question, did Mr. Epstein ever wire
31:03
Speaker 1: you any money? Answer, no. Question, did he ever provide
31:06
Speaker 1: you with any checks? Answer, I don't believe so, no. Question,
31:11
Speaker 1: did he ever provide you with any gift cards? Answer, yes,
31:15
Speaker 1: he did. Well, he tried, you know, that jet card.
31:17
Speaker 1: It's not a card, but that's what they call it,
31:20
Speaker 1: I guess. But yes, he gave me a Bergdorf Goodman,
31:24
Speaker 1: you know, which is a department store in New York,
31:26
Speaker 1: gift cards at some point. Question, and do you recall
31:28
Speaker 1: the value of those gift cards? Answer, I don't specifically.
31:32
Speaker 1: What I recall about the context is that this notion
31:35
Speaker 1: of me having a burdensome travel schedule was a constant
31:38
Speaker 1: topic that was raised, right? And a lot of it,
31:41
Speaker 1: I was traveling to Geneva a lot during the time,
31:44
Speaker 1: but I was traveling all over the world. And he
31:46
Speaker 1: thought that I was cheap in traveling, you know, in
31:48
Speaker 1: economy or, you know, in business class when first class
31:51
Speaker 1: was available. And, you know, this one was his unsolicited comment.
31:56
Speaker 1: And so at one point he said, I'm going to transfer.
31:59
Speaker 1: I don't know whether he said it to me or
32:01
Speaker 1: he said it to somebody on his staff, but he said,
32:03
Speaker 1: I'm going to transfer American Express points to her so
32:06
Speaker 1: that she can use it to travel better, to travel
32:08
Speaker 1: in a way, you know, I think people should travel.
32:11
Speaker 1: And so there was some effort, you know, to do that.
32:14
Speaker 1: And apparently, I guess they couldn't do it or something.
32:17
Speaker 1: And so in lieu of that, he sent me these,
32:19
Speaker 1: I guess, converted those points, those American Express points into
32:22
Speaker 1: a Bergdorf Goodman gift cards. And he gave them to me.
32:26
Speaker 1: They were sent to my office. And it wasn't just one.
32:30
Speaker 1: I remember it was multiples. And I think, you know,
32:33
Speaker 1: maybe each one was worth like $ 1, 000 or $ 500. I
32:36
Speaker 1: shared them with a number of assistants in the law firm. Question,
32:40
Speaker 1: the Amex points were actually my next question. So thank
32:43
Speaker 1: you for answering that also. Question, did Mr. Epstein give
32:47
Speaker 1: you access to any other perks offered by his American
32:50
Speaker 1: Express Black Card, such as lounges, airport lounges, the Amex
32:54
Speaker 1: Centurion concierge service, or anything of that nature? Answer, no. Question,
33:00
Speaker 1: were you ever under any health care plan of Mr. Epstein's? Answer, no. Question,
33:05
Speaker 1: and I know you mentioned denying the private jet card
33:08
Speaker 1: as a gift for Mr. Epstein. Do you recall any
33:10
Speaker 1: other gifts you denied from Mr. Epstein? Answer, he offered
33:14
Speaker 1: to fly me on his plane to Paris when I
33:16
Speaker 1: had to go to Geneva to present to the board
33:18
Speaker 1: and the bank. And he offered to fly me to
33:20
Speaker 1: Paris on his plane. And then I could, from there,
33:23
Speaker 1: go on to Geneva. And I declined that invitation slash,
33:26
Speaker 1: you know, gift. Question, did you ever receive any loans
33:30
Speaker 1: from Mr. Epstein? Answer, no. Question, did you ever request
33:34
Speaker 1: a loan from Mr. Epstein? Answer, no. Question, did you
33:38
Speaker 1: ever have any loans forgiven by Mr. Epstein, whether they
33:41
Speaker 1: be outside loans that he was willing to pay off
33:44
Speaker 1: for you? Answer, no, I did not. Question, did Mr.
33:47
Speaker 1: Epstein ever provide you with any ownership or voting rights
33:50
Speaker 1: in any entity of his? Answer, no. Question, did Mr.
33:54
Speaker 1: Epstein ever provide you with any real estate? Answer, no. Question,
33:58
Speaker 1: did Mr. Epstein assist you either home hunting or apartment hunting? Answer,
34:04
Speaker 1: I was looking for an apartment in New York and
34:06
Speaker 1: I was going to see the apartment with my broker.
34:08
Speaker 1: And he called me and said, when he called you,
34:11
Speaker 1: what he would say is, I'd say hello and he
34:13
Speaker 1: would say, what's doing? And that was his, hey, what's up?
34:17
Speaker 1: He would say, what's doing? Like, what are you doing?
34:20
Speaker 1: And so I said, I'm going to look at an apartment.
34:22
Speaker 1: And he goes, oh, do you want me to come
34:24
Speaker 1: look at it? I said, sure. I never purchased real
34:26
Speaker 1: estate in New York before. And so he came and
34:29
Speaker 1: looked at the apartment that I was looking at and
34:31
Speaker 1: expressed his unsolicited opinion that it was not an apartment
34:35
Speaker 1: that I should buy. Question, did Mr. Epstein ever ask
34:38
Speaker 1: you for any personal favors of any kind? Answer, he asked.
34:42
Speaker 1: The only thing that I can recall him asking me to,
34:44
Speaker 1: he asked me for, you know, referrals to lawyers. I
34:47
Speaker 1: didn't really view that as a personal favor, but he
34:50
Speaker 1: asked whether I could help to arrange for a White
34:53
Speaker 1: House tour for one of his friends. Question, that's actually
34:57
Speaker 1: my next question also. Who's the friend that you set
34:59
Speaker 1: up on a White House tour? Answer, it was Mr.
35:02
Speaker 1: Woody Allen and his wife. Question, and did you have
35:05
Speaker 1: to use your contacts in the White House to set
35:08
Speaker 1: up that tour? Answer, I had a number of contacts
35:11
Speaker 1: in the White House, and so I asked one of
35:13
Speaker 1: them whether they would arrange a tour for Mr. Allen
35:16
Speaker 1: and his wife, yeah. Question, had you met Woody Allen
35:19
Speaker 1: prior to setting up that tour for him? Answer, I had, yes. Question,
35:23
Speaker 1: and were you aware of Mr. Allen's legal history when
35:26
Speaker 1: making these arrangements? Answer, his legal history? Question, specifically his
35:31
Speaker 1: widely publicized sexual abuse allegations? Answer, I was aware of,
35:35
Speaker 1: you know, public reporting that had occurred, I believed. I
35:39
Speaker 1: don't know whether it was the 90s or 2000s, but
35:42
Speaker 1: I was aware that there, you know, had been controversy
35:45
Speaker 1: around Mr. Allen, sure. Question, did that controversy ever cause
35:48
Speaker 1: concern to you at all? Answer, well, I mean, he
35:51
Speaker 1: was one of, you know, the iconic comedic directors. I
35:55
Speaker 1: certainly had watched many of his films. One of my
35:57
Speaker 1: favorite films to this day is Annie Hall. My favorite
36:00
Speaker 1: actress is Diane Keaton. I knew that, you know, Diane
36:03
Speaker 1: Keaton had given really, you know, she had at some
36:05
Speaker 1: point given a very, you know, heartfelt tribute to Mr. Allen.
36:09
Speaker 1: And I was very happy to help arrange a White
36:11
Speaker 1: House tour, which I had done for hundreds of people
36:14
Speaker 1: over the years for him and his wife just to,
36:16
Speaker 1: you know, see the White House. Wait, I thought she
36:19
Speaker 1: just said she had no contacts anymore. I guess she does.
36:24
Speaker 1: Miss Toland, just jumping back in for a moment, why
36:27
Speaker 1: did you say you denied the offer from Mr. Epstein
36:29
Speaker 1: to take the trip on his private aircraft? Answer, because
36:33
Speaker 1: I didn't want to sit on an airplane and talk
36:35
Speaker 1: with him for eight hours. I wanted to go on
36:37
Speaker 1: the plane, put the mask on, my sleeping mask, and,
36:39
Speaker 1: you know, go straight to Geneva and try to get
36:41
Speaker 1: some sleep on the overnight flight. It was as simple
36:44
Speaker 1: as that. Question, did Mr. Epstein attempt to compensate you
36:48
Speaker 1: for setting up that White House tour for Mr. Allen? Answer, no.
36:52
Speaker 1: And you just asked, he knew that Mr. Allen and
36:54
Speaker 1: his wife were going to be in Washington, and you know,
36:56
Speaker 1: was it possible for them to get a White House tour? Question,
37:00
Speaker 1: did Mr. Epstein ever personally himself ask you to gain
37:03
Speaker 1: access to the White House in any way, whether for
37:06
Speaker 1: a tour or a meeting or anything of that nature? Answer, no. Question,
37:11
Speaker 1: and this was touched on briefly in previous hours, but
37:14
Speaker 1: were you ever formally retained as a lawyer? For Mr. Epstein? Answer. No,
37:18
Speaker 1: I was not. Question. Never signed any legal binding agreement
37:21
Speaker 1: to provide legal service? Answer. No, I did not. Question
37:25
Speaker 1: by Mr. Emmer. Just to follow up on the gifts.
37:29
Speaker 1: Are you aware of Epstein giving anyone else similar gifts
37:32
Speaker 1: that you received? Answer. I knew that he had given
37:36
Speaker 1: gifts to our shared client. Again, that I would haircut,
37:39
Speaker 1: you know, handbag, sweater, you know, those kinds of things. Question.
37:43
Speaker 1: Did anyone ever express being uncomfortable with the gifts that
37:46
Speaker 1: they were receiving from Mr. Epstein? Answer, I never heard
37:49
Speaker 1: any expression of any discomfort. Question, and you referenced previously
37:54
Speaker 1: that it was common that you'd receive gifts. You specifically
37:58
Speaker 1: mentioned trials, right? Is that right? Question, it's common to
38:02
Speaker 1: receive gifts in the professional services world. And so I
38:06
Speaker 1: received many gifts from clients and other associates, you know,
38:08
Speaker 1: professional associates during my years in private practice, as did
38:12
Speaker 1: my partners. Question, approximately how many gifts would you have
38:17
Speaker 1: received from professional acquaintances or clients worth more than $ 5, 000? Answer,
38:22
Speaker 1: I don't know that I can quantify it, and I
38:24
Speaker 1: don't know that I can specifically, you know, tell you
38:26
Speaker 1: about specific value. You know, there are certain, let's say,
38:29
Speaker 1: you know, concerts or something that you might get invited
38:32
Speaker 1: to where the face value of the ticket typically you
38:35
Speaker 1: would get, you know, you might get invited to a box, right?
38:38
Speaker 1: And the face value of the ticket could be many
38:41
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. I recall, you know, receiving a Chanel
38:44
Speaker 1: necklace from a daughter of a client that I actually
38:47
Speaker 1: viewed as a very personal because it was something that
38:49
Speaker 1: I knew. She had personally taken the time to find
38:52
Speaker 1: something that she really believed was like, you know, consistent
38:55
Speaker 1: with my style and that I would appreciate. I don't
38:58
Speaker 1: know how I would value it. Question. And I believe
39:02
Speaker 1: that I asked you if others around you were uncomfortable
39:04
Speaker 1: with gifts. But for the record, were you ever uncomfortable
39:07
Speaker 1: with gifts that you were receiving from Mr. Epstein? Answer,
39:11
Speaker 1: the only gift that I was uncomfortable about receiving because
39:14
Speaker 1: I thought it was excessive was the jet card. But
39:18
Speaker 1: the other ones, no. Mr. Grant, that'll wrap up our
39:21
Speaker 1: second hour. We'll go off the record. All right, folks,
39:24
Speaker 1: we're going to wrap up right here. And in the
39:25
Speaker 1: next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick
39:27
Speaker 1: up where we left off. All the information that goes
39:30
Speaker 1: with this episode can be found in the description box.
39:34
Speaker 1: What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the
39:37
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to get right
39:40
Speaker 1: back to Kathy Rumler and her conversation with Congress. Redacted,
39:45
Speaker 1: we'll go back on record. Question by redacted. So, Ms. Rumler,
39:50
Speaker 1: you did mention in your opening statement you gave, but
39:53
Speaker 1: I don't think we have a copy. That feels like
39:55
Speaker 1: a long time ago. Can you talk a little bit
39:57
Speaker 1: more about how you helped Mr. Epstein with his legal issues? Answer,
40:01
Speaker 1: I was not his lawyer. Question right. Answer, but as
40:05
Speaker 1: a distinguished congressman who was here earlier said, you know,
40:08
Speaker 1: he said, when I was a defense lawyer, everyone, every
40:11
Speaker 1: time someone called, they asked me for advice. That's very
40:15
Speaker 1: similar to my life and my experiences. And certainly Mr.
40:18
Speaker 1: Epstein did that. You know, from time to time, I
40:21
Speaker 1: knew he did it with others as well. And the
40:23
Speaker 1: issues that he typically would ask me about were related
40:25
Speaker 1: to media scrutiny or media allegations. And on occasion, he
40:30
Speaker 1: would ask me questions that were legal, questions of points
40:32
Speaker 1: of law, is how I would say it, arising from
40:35
Speaker 1: the litigation in Florida. And I understand that a couple
40:38
Speaker 1: of victims had brought against the Justice Department, which I
40:42
Speaker 1: will refer to as the CVRA litigation, the Crime Victims
40:45
Speaker 1: Rights Act litigation. Question got it. And then, as time
40:49
Speaker 1: went on, there was more litigation. He faced an increasing
40:53
Speaker 1: amount of litigation, or not. Answer, I don't recall. I
40:57
Speaker 1: don't really remember other litigation that he was involved in,
41:00
Speaker 1: or that he was a party to, to this CVR case.
41:03
Speaker 1: It obviously involved his non-prosecution agreement, and in particular, as
41:07
Speaker 1: I understood the issue, the legal issue before the court,
41:10
Speaker 1: there was whether or not the Justice Department had violated
41:14
Speaker 1: the notification rights of the plaintiffs in that case, and
41:18
Speaker 1: that there was a legal issue, I was actually familiar
41:21
Speaker 1: with this legal issue. The legal issue, as I understood it,
41:25
Speaker 1: that was before the court, was the Crime Victims Rights Act,
41:28
Speaker 1: among other things, requires prosecutors to provide notice to victims
41:32
Speaker 1: of crimes. And the question in a decision not to prosecute,
41:36
Speaker 1: which is what a non-prosecution agreement is, whether or not
41:40
Speaker 1: those notification requirements had kicked in, and whether or not
41:43
Speaker 1: the Justice Department, the U.S. Attorney's Office, had provided notice
41:47
Speaker 1: and adequate notice at the same time. That was my
41:50
Speaker 1: general understanding of the issue that was before the court.
41:53
Speaker 1: And I knew that the Office of Legal Counsel at
41:56
Speaker 1: the Justice Department had actually issued a formal opinion on
41:59
Speaker 1: that question, not directly related to this lawsuit, but just
42:03
Speaker 1: in general. That question, when does the Justice Department have
42:07
Speaker 1: to provide notification to victims? And that Office of Legal
42:10
Speaker 1: Counsel opinion had stated that those notification obligations only attached
42:14
Speaker 1: or kicked in when a charging decision when someone had
42:17
Speaker 1: been charged. Well, she's wrong about that because the court
42:21
Speaker 1: already admonished the federal government for the CVRA violations. Question,
42:27
Speaker 1: as you learn more about the case, did the cause
42:30
Speaker 1: or did that cause you to reevaluate your understanding of
42:33
Speaker 1: the circumstances of his non-prosecution agreement? Answer, I don't remember
42:37
Speaker 1: there being many facts in the case in the sense
42:40
Speaker 1: I remember that it was a legal issue. And that
42:43
Speaker 1: was a legal issue before the court. And the question was,
42:46
Speaker 1: you know, there were sort of two questions. One is,
42:49
Speaker 1: did the Justice Department not fulfill its obligation under the CVRA?
42:54
Speaker 1: And then second, if they hadn't, what was the remedy?
42:58
Speaker 1: But I don't remember there being, you know, I don't
43:00
Speaker 1: remember having much knowledge about there being facts because the
43:03
Speaker 1: facts are a little bit subsidiary. To the legal question. Question, well,
43:08
Speaker 1: one set of facts was whether the CVRA remedy aside
43:11
Speaker 1: had been violated at all. Answer, that's right. Question, and
43:15
Speaker 1: that would be because the plaintiffs or potentially other survivors
43:19
Speaker 1: or victims had not been afforded the rights under the CVRA.
43:23
Speaker 1: Is that right? Answer, my recollection of the Justice Department's
43:26
Speaker 1: position in that litigation was that they had complied. I
43:30
Speaker 1: should say it as opposed to they, but the prosecutors
43:33
Speaker 1: had complied because there was They made a decision to
43:37
Speaker 1: not prosecute. So if there had been a decision to
43:40
Speaker 1: prosecute where an indictment had been returned, then a bunch
43:43
Speaker 1: of notification, you know, provisions would kick in. Question. The
43:47
Speaker 1: plaintiffs were Jane Doe's, the people who were survivors who
43:50
Speaker 1: were Jeffrey Epstein's victims, were they not? Answer. My understanding
43:55
Speaker 1: is that they were people who said, you know, we
43:57
Speaker 1: believe that we're victims of this conduct and the Justice
44:00
Speaker 1: Department owed us certain notifications and we didn't get them. Question.
44:05
Speaker 1: Did you believe there were victims of Jeffrey Epstein? Answer,
44:09
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't have any reason to doubt it. There
44:11
Speaker 1: clearly were victims of Mr. Epstein's conduct that was resolved
44:15
Speaker 1: with the non-prosecution agreement. And the legal question, what I
44:19
Speaker 1: understood it to be, the reason that the prosecutors chose
44:22
Speaker 1: not to prosecute him federally was that they did not
44:25
Speaker 1: have sufficient evidence that he knew that anyone was in
44:27
Speaker 1: fact underage. But that doesn't mean they weren't. Question, it
44:32
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they weren't. It means that you believed that
44:35
Speaker 1: he had more underage victims than were reflected in the
44:38
Speaker 1: two counts that he ended up pleading guilty to? Answer
44:41
Speaker 1: in one count, there were no underage victims at all.
44:43
Speaker 1: That was a solicitation of prostitution count. And again, in
44:46
Speaker 1: law enforcement slash prosecutor state of mind, the crime of
44:50
Speaker 1: prostitution has two participants. Question, and you've already, we've already
44:54
Speaker 1: discussed that. Question, at times you reminded Mr. Epstein that
44:59
Speaker 1: if she's a minor, then that's not legally prostitution. Answer,
45:02
Speaker 1: a minor can't consent. Question right. Answer, to engage in
45:06
Speaker 1: a commercial sex act in the way that someone who
45:09
Speaker 1: is legally of age can. And the law treats those
45:11
Speaker 1: people very different. Without opining as to whether that's a
45:16
Speaker 1: good policy or whatever, that's what the law does. Question,
45:19
Speaker 1: I think you understand what I'm asking here. Is that
45:22
Speaker 1: working on the CVR case, you became aware of a
45:25
Speaker 1: number of plaintiffs. Mr. Fishman jumps in. I'm sorry, she
45:29
Speaker 1: didn't testify that she was working on the CVRA case. Question, sorry,
45:34
Speaker 1: you're right, we'll get to that. Question, in becoming familiar
45:37
Speaker 1: with this CVRA case, you also became familiar that there
45:41
Speaker 1: were a number of plaintiffs. Those plaintiffs alleged to be
45:44
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein's victims, survivors at the time. Those additional victims,
45:49
Speaker 1: whether or not he was charged or pled guilty to
45:51
Speaker 1: his offense against them. And you were aware of that, right? Answer,
45:56
Speaker 1: what I was aware of with respect to the CVRA
45:58
Speaker 1: litigation is that there were, and again, that this was,
46:02
Speaker 1: this was public litigation, and that there were two different
46:05
Speaker 1: plaintiffs who identified as Jane Doe 1 and Jane Doe 2.
46:09
Speaker 1: And at some subsequent point, there was a motion filed
46:12
Speaker 1: by lawyers who were representing the two Jane Doe victims
46:15
Speaker 1: who said that their rights had been violated by the
46:17
Speaker 1: Justice Department. And the motion was seeking to add to
46:20
Speaker 1: additional Jane Doe plaintiffs. And I came to learn that,
46:24
Speaker 1: through public reporting, at the name of the third Jane
46:26
Speaker 1: Doe plaintiff, that's what I knew. Question, do you recall Mr.
46:30
Speaker 1: Epstein ever filed any motions in the CVRA case at all? Answer,
46:34
Speaker 1: I don't remember specifically whether anything was filed. I have
46:38
Speaker 1: a vague recollection that there was. Well, I shouldn't say.
46:40
Speaker 1: I don't remember. I don't remember. I knew that he
46:44
Speaker 1: wasn't any party to it. Question, what kind of work
46:47
Speaker 1: did you do or advice did you provide to Mr.
46:49
Speaker 1: Epstein regarding CVRA case? Answer, again, I wasn't his lawyer.
46:54
Speaker 1: He had a lawyer. Question, and just to be clear
46:57
Speaker 1: on that, you never represented him Answer, I did not
47:00
Speaker 1: represent him. Question, you were not his lawyer. Answer, I
47:03
Speaker 1: was not his lawyer. Question, when you gave him advice,
47:06
Speaker 1: you were never giving him advice in a legal capacity. Answer,
47:09
Speaker 1: that's not what I said. Question, I'm asking. That is
47:13
Speaker 1: what I'm asking you. Answer, he asked my opinion or
47:17
Speaker 1: my views on a number of occasions. Those views, typically,
47:20
Speaker 1: he asked me, let me rephrase it or phrase it differently.
47:23
Speaker 1: There was a lot of media reporting that arose from
47:26
Speaker 1: the CVRA litigation because of a motion that had been
47:29
Speaker 1: filed and allegations that were made in that motion that
47:32
Speaker 1: were quite, that were the kinds of allegations that would attract,
47:35
Speaker 1: that attracted, that did in fact attract a lot of
47:38
Speaker 1: media attention. And so there were things that happened as
47:41
Speaker 1: a result of that and a whole bunch of collateral
47:43
Speaker 1: litigation that spun out of that filing. And he asked
47:46
Speaker 1: me about that, you know, from time to time. And
47:49
Speaker 1: I would, you know, give him my best response, you know,
47:51
Speaker 1: based on my understanding of the facts at the time. Question,
47:55
Speaker 1: would you ever perform a similar role to his lawyers directly? Answer, sure,
47:59
Speaker 1: if asked. Question, were you asked? Answer, I don't, not
48:04
Speaker 1: that I, sitting here today, I don't have any specific
48:06
Speaker 1: recollection of anything, but you know, you know, one of,
48:10
Speaker 1: one of the things about being a lawyer is that
48:12
Speaker 1: lawyers like to talk to each other about cases. And certainly,
48:15
Speaker 1: you know, again, he had counsel, a very quite competent,
48:19
Speaker 1: really good counsel, who was representing him. And so, you know, again,
48:23
Speaker 1: we had a shared client. He knew me. He seemed
48:25
Speaker 1: to me to have a practice of kind of wanting
48:28
Speaker 1: to get a lot of people's perspective, particularly on things
48:31
Speaker 1: that were, you know, in the media. And again, I
48:34
Speaker 1: remember at this time that there were some, you know,
48:37
Speaker 1: some allegations that had been made in this filing that
48:39
Speaker 1: were quite, you know, that were quite media, got the
48:42
Speaker 1: media going. Question, how did you react to those allegations? Answer, well,
48:47
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I remember that there were
48:48
Speaker 1: allegations that I found to be, I thought seemed implausible.
48:53
Speaker 1: That's not the right. I was skeptical of some of
48:55
Speaker 1: the allegations just based on the nature of the allegations
48:58
Speaker 1: without having any facts. Based on my training, my experience
49:02
Speaker 1: as a prosecutor, there were allegations that seemed unlikely to
49:05
Speaker 1: me based on my, I didn't have a lot of
49:08
Speaker 1: indica or credibility, I would say. Question, you are skeptical
49:11
Speaker 1: that whether the person whose stories those allegations drew from
49:15
Speaker 1: was herself a victim of Mr. Epstein and Maxwell? Answer,
49:19
Speaker 1: I didn't reach a conclusion. about that, but I certainly
49:21
Speaker 1: had no reason to disbelieve that. Question, did you ever
49:24
Speaker 1: inquire whether she was or wasn't a victim? Answer, inquire
49:28
Speaker 1: of whom? Question, well, that's a very good question. Did
49:31
Speaker 1: you ever ask Mr. Epstein? Answer, I don't believe I
49:33
Speaker 1: ever asked him, but he told me he made an
49:36
Speaker 1: assertion to me on more than one occasion. His consistent
49:39
Speaker 1: assertion with respect to that, the allegations of that individual,
49:43
Speaker 1: was that those allegations were not true. Question, did you
49:46
Speaker 1: ever talk to his lawyers about that? Answer, I may have,
49:50
Speaker 1: I don't remember. Question, so you mentioned that litigation spun
49:53
Speaker 1: off from that. Can you just describe what that litigation
49:56
Speaker 1: environment was like? What was happening? What does that mean
50:00
Speaker 1: to have it spin off? And can you tell me
50:02
Speaker 1: what you were working on? How you worked on those
50:05
Speaker 1: sort of collateral litigation issues? Answer, I wasn't working on
50:09
Speaker 1: any of those things. Question, were you providing advice on them?
50:12
Speaker 1: Answer again, he would ask my opinion on things that
50:15
Speaker 1: were happening kind of in the media landscape. I can
50:18
Speaker 1: give you an example. One of the allegations in the
50:20
Speaker 1: filing that I'm referring to was made against Professor Alan Dershowitz.
50:24
Speaker 1: And the allegations were that were made against him if you,
50:28
Speaker 1: if you're him, if you were him, they were highly
50:30
Speaker 1: inflammatory allegations. And he responded to those allegations and that
50:35
Speaker 1: were made in the court filing and immediately reported on
50:38
Speaker 1: extensively in the media. His response was to respond in
50:41
Speaker 1: the media in a way that was disparaging of the
50:44
Speaker 1: Affiant and the Affiant's lawyers. In turn, at least the lawyers,
50:48
Speaker 1: I remember the lawyers in turn, the lawyers sued Mr.
50:51
Speaker 1: Dershowitz for defamation. So that's an example of collateral litigation. Question,
50:57
Speaker 1: and Mr. Epstein would ask for your advice regarding that
51:00
Speaker 1: collateral litigation? Answer, I remember he asked my opinion. and
51:05
Speaker 1: that I do remember he asked my opinion, and I
51:07
Speaker 1: thought that, you know, if it were me, and it
51:09
Speaker 1: wasn't me, but if I had been advising Mr. Dershowitz,
51:12
Speaker 1: the more appropriate that the better legal course than going
51:15
Speaker 1: on TV and denying and making accusations, right, would be
51:19
Speaker 1: to go to court, file a motion to strike the pleading,
51:22
Speaker 1: and say why you thought the pleading should be struck. Question,
51:25
Speaker 1: did you ever talk with Mr. Epstein about whether your
51:27
Speaker 1: communications with him about his legal issues or related items
51:31
Speaker 1: were subject to some kind of privilege? Answer, I don't
51:34
Speaker 1: recall having any conversation with him about that one way
51:37
Speaker 1: or the other. Question the same with same question for
51:40
Speaker 1: his lawyers. Well, again, remember what I recall him asking
51:44
Speaker 1: was about matters that were in the media, because again,
51:46
Speaker 1: he was represented by counsel, right? And so his counsel,
51:50
Speaker 1: to the extent that there were issues relating to the CVRA,
51:53
Speaker 1: you know, that counsel was monitoring the litigation, was ensuring that,
51:57
Speaker 1: you know, whatever should be done or responses, if they
52:00
Speaker 1: were required, you know, he was responsible for those things,
52:03
Speaker 1: not me. typically what Epstein would ask me about, again,
52:06
Speaker 1: were things that were in the media. You know, for
52:09
Speaker 1: better or for worse. In the course of my career,
52:11
Speaker 1: I've worked on many, many matters that where the legal
52:14
Speaker 1: issue and the media issues are combined. Question, this was
52:18
Speaker 1: not a typical fact pattern for you in that regard,
52:20
Speaker 1: is what you're saying. Answer, well, there's nothing about the
52:23
Speaker 1: whole fact pattern that was typical. But those types of matters,
52:27
Speaker 1: those types of matters where there was a court proceeding
52:30
Speaker 1: that had a Many, I would say most, court proceedings
52:34
Speaker 1: don't get any media attention whatsoever. I happen to have
52:37
Speaker 1: spent some time in my career working on cases that
52:40
Speaker 1: have a lot of media attention. All right, folks, we're
52:42
Speaker 1: going to wrap up right here. And in the next
52:44
Speaker 1: episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up
52:46
Speaker 1: where we left off. All the information that goes with
52:49
Speaker 1: this episode can be found in the description box.