Latest / The Daily Writer / Finding Hope in the Midst of Mental Illness (with Chris Morris)

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Finding Hope in the Midst of Mental Illness (with Chris Morris) · The Daily Writer

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Today's podcast episode is a little bit different because we're tackling a heavy topic.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that topic is mental illness.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's an issue that affects us all in one way or another.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: And if you haven't personally struggled with some kind of mental illness or maybe had a brush with it of some type, chances are very high that you know someone who has.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: In today's conversation, we have a guest who digs deep into his personal experience with this issue and helps point the way forward.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: So stick around.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: This is kind of a heavy topic, but a very, very important episode.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd say my most important episode so far.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: So keep on listening, and I know you'll be blessed.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Hey friends, welcome to the Born to Create podcast.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Kat Sanders, and I'm an author, creative coach, and professor.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: This is the show where we explore the mindset, habits, and principles to help you make a bigger impact in your life and creative work.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Today I'm thrilled to be talking with Chris Morris, who is the husband, father of four, CPA, and author.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: He writes honestly about pain, chronic illness, and hope.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: He's the author of the book Perfectly Abnormal, and he's also co-author of the excellent new book called Whispers in the Pews: Voices on Mental Illness in the Church.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: In our conversation today, Chris shares openly about his recent experience in a psych ward.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: He learned some powerful lessons about the church that all of us need to hear.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Chris also offers a lot of practical suggestions for church leaders on making the church a safe haven for those who are struggling with mental illness.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: And he also shares what to do when you're struggling with your own darkness.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: I've got to be honest, this is probably the most important episode of the podcast that I've published up to this point.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I really encourage you to listen to the whole interview and to take what Chris says to heart.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: If you do, I can promise that you'll be a better leader, an artist, and a human being because of his brave example and his wise words.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: And if you want to take a deeper dive after the episode is over, be sure to check out our show notes at KentSanders.net slash Christmas.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: I also want to mention that today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, The Artist of Two Case 26 Essentials for the Creative Journey.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: This book is filled with a lot of practical tips to help you be more successful as an artist and as a creative person no matter what kind of work that you do.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: This book makes a great Christmas gift for somebody on your list, or let's be honest, it can also make a great gift for yourself if you're looking for something for yourself.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: And who doesn't buy a little something for themselves at Christmas?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: You can check it out at KentSanders.net slash suitcase.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: We'll get to the conversation with Chris in just a minute, but first, here's a few quick words from today's podcast partners.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: Hey there.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is Julie Mayhan from Patio Live, and you're listening to the Born to Create podcast.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, this is Eric Elder from TheRanch.org, and you're listening to the Born to Create Podcast.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Anna Real from the RealANna.com, and you're listening to the Born to Create Podcast.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I am here with my friend Chris Morris, and uh Chris, so glad to have you on the show and that we were able to uh kind of get this worked out and uh chat with one another about this whole uh important topic of mental health.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks for having me, Ken.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_05: I'm really glad to be here.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: So we have known each other for, gosh, I don't know, a few years.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I know this is an issue that's really close to your heart, and so I really feel honored that you took the time to do this because uh I consider you uh definitely an authority on this topic, and it's something that's close to my heart as well.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: So before we talk about the book that has just come out, I'd like for you to uh, if you don't mind, sharing your story of this article that you wrote for crosswalk.com, which was entitled Two Things I Learned About the Church and a Psych Ward.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: I thought that was one of the most compelling things that I had read in a long time.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I read a lot of stuff, so you know, you know, I I don't just like throw that out lightly.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um so if you're comfortable with that, share that story with us and what the two things were that you learned about the church and a psych ward.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_05: Sure.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_05: So I I guess I should just start by saying I spent yeah, I spent a week in a mental health facility.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_05: I woke up and due to a series of circumstances, some some in my control, some out of my control, I found myself in a in a really dark place.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_05: I I not only had suicidal ideations, but I had a plan and I was on the cusp of starting to execute that plan when I was when you know something, probably the Holy Spirit, said, Hey, you should give your wife a call.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_05: She was at work.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_05: You should call your wife first and talk to her and tell her what's happening.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_05: I I did.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_05: She's a nurse at a hospital, so it's not like she can drop everything and run.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_05: Right, right.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_05: What she did do is she she called about 15 of our common friends.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_05: So over the course of the next hour, I had I had all sorts of people calling me, checking in on me, making sure that I was okay.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_05: One of them ended up being one of them is the uh spiritual counselor at a mental health facility.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_05: And and he, you know, he talked, he basically was assessing me.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't realize that because I, you know, he's also a friend.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, wow, these are really specific questions.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_05: This is odd.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, and he after he was done assessing me, he said, Chris, this is probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do, but I need to come pick you up, and you need to be, you need to go, you need to be in a mental health facility.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_05: You're you're not safe right now at home.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: So, how did that make you feel whenever he said that?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_05: There were so many emotions that went through my head.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_05: Part, you know, some of it was shame, because you know, good good Christians aren't supposed to be at mental health facilities.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's sort of the common wisdom, although it's not wisdom by any stretch.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_05: It's hard to do air quotes on a podcast, though, isn't it?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, yeah, it is.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um so I felt some shame, I felt some I felt some relief, to be honest, that you know, if there was one person who I who I knew I could trust to sort of assess if I was okay, it was my buddy Joel.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_05: And I was really grateful that he you know, he he was working that day at the facility, and he, you know, he stopped what he was doing, came and got me and brought me in.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm forever grateful for it.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_05: I know that sounds like a stupid thing for for me to be like, wow, a friend left work so I wouldn't die.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_05: But but but but it really was meaningful to me because it's you know, because I was in such a crisis place, and I was really, really not okay, the most not okay I think I've ever been in my life.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: Are there any specific things, and and maybe this is getting into a whole whole thing that you don't want to dive into here on like a public podcast?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: And we can edit, and I can go and edit stuff out if I need to.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and I often do that in shows to shorten things and whatnot, but what kinds of things tend to bring those sort of episodes on or crisis points that looking at your own life and in talking with many people?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: I know you know you've talked to many people, particularly in in editing the book that you just came out with.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: What kinds of things bring on really mental health crisis moments generally in people's lives?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_05: I think we all have what we, you know, we we all have this baseline of expectation that's normal for us.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_05: And that that normal looks different for every single person.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_05: But we still have we all have this expectation of what normal is.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_05: And we know when we're not hitting normal.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_05: And and and I my my experience in reading in reading these uh the essays from these books and in my own life very recently is that you know when when when I'm if I if I if I'm sort of figuratively looking up at the baseline and it seems like it's up in the sky and I can't reach it because I'm so low.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_05: And there's no and there's no there's no ladder, if you will, for me to climb to get to that baseline.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_05: Because I'm just a mess.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_05: That that's when I that's when when I have my oh that's for me, that's when I had my oh crap moments.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_05: Like let me let me give you really specifically what happened with me.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_05: So I I I had I was suffering from a concussion at the time due to some other health conditions that I have.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um so so a lot of confusion, a lot of frustration, just the things that happen with with concussions.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_05: I I woke up that morning and I grabbed my t-shirt to put it on, and I looked at it and went and I went, I don't know what this is, and I don't know what to do with this.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_05: And there was just something so stunningly disturbing and upsetting about the fact that I looked at a t-shirt for five minutes before I have a master's in business administration.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_05: You know, like like these are the thoughts that go through my mind.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_05: I I have an MBA, I I I've worked with chief compliance officers of multinational companies to help them solve problems.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know what a freaking t-shirt is right now.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_05: What is wrong with me?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_05: And and I and something in me just sort of it it kind of shattered, like, oh wow, I'm not okay.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_05: I I've always had the my baseline has always been more depressive than, you know, like like I've never been the happiest guy in the block.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: I understand.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_05: But but like in that moment, I didn't even, I couldn't even, I couldn't find my baseline because it was such a dramatic event for me.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_05: You know, in my case, it was brought on in part by a concussion.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_05: For other people, it's circumstances where they just feel so overwhelmed by the negativity that's sort of being thrown at them or by by other people's words or by other things that are that are happening to them that were sort of unexpected.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_05: But when you lose the baseline, I think that's that's when a crisis strikes.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's that's a really good insight.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: I've never heard it framed that way, but that completely makes sense.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: And as I think about my own experiences in life, that rings true.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, at some point, I think most of the time we sort of hover around that baseline, sometimes we're above it, sometimes we're somewhat below it, but whenever for for different reasons we dip way below that, it's almost like we lose any sense of I'm trying to I'm underwater and I I can see the surface.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: I know it's up there somewhere, but I'm I'm in deep so far that I I don't feel any hope of getting out of it.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I agree with you.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_05: I I'm glad that rings true because uh I wasn't expect I that that was an answer I just came up with.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's that is really uh insightful.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: There's you know, there are times when somebody says something and I think, wow, that that puts like a whole slice of my life into perspective.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that I'm gonna be thinking about that for the next week, I guarantee you.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: So you uh you have the friend pick you up and you go to the mental health facility.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh in the article you mentioned that you learned a couple things about the church there.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: So what was your experience there and what specifically were the the insights that you learned about the church?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_05: Sure.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_05: So my I think the the biggest thing that I walked away with sort of experientially is that you know, though those who were in a mental health fact, at least in the mental health facility I was in, they they're like today's widows and orphans.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_05: You have, you know, there was there was a gentleman there who who had severe PTSD from from his time in Iraq.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_05: There was a grandma whose whose kid, there was a ma, an older mom whose kids didn't want anything to do with her because they'd, for whatever reason, they just sort of moved on with their life.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_05: There was a uh a gentleman whose anger issues were just wow, they were frightening.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but but all everyone, the thing that everyone shared is that they were forgotten.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_05: And it really broke my heart sort of watching this.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there were a couple visitation sessions during the during the the week that I was there on on the mental on the psych ward, and I was the only one in my ward that had anyone that came to visit.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_05: That's crazy.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_05: That's absolutely crazy.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_05: It is, and I know from overhearing the phone calls, there was there was a uh a public phone in the hallway, so everyone heard everyone else's calls.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_05: There were children, you know, adult children that were there.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_05: And so so it's not like there was it's not like V Vs were nomads wandering the world.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_05: It's just that for whatever reason, some some of it could be that they didn't want to have anyone visit them because you do have to sign a piece of paper that says, please come visit me.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_05: But but regardless, I was, you know, there were 15 people on my ward, and both times I was the only one that had anyone visit.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_05: And that that really broke my heart because it's not that's not how it ought to be.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: No, wow, that's it's tragic.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it really it really messed with me.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_05: I also, you know, personally, I understood I I learned a lot about how how much little that the little things that I take for granted really impact my sense of personal freedom.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_05: Like, hey, it's for it's 4 15.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like eating right now.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_05: I think I'm gonna make myself a sandwich.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I and I can go do that when I'm not in a psych ward.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_05: You know, otherwise it's like you get cafeteria, you know, it's like it's like being back in school, you know, being being being seven or eight years old.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, it's lunchtime, everyone, let's line up and go to the cafeteria.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_05: And you get the whatever food is offered to you.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_05: Hope you like it.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: Good luck.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_05: And it was very that that was very strange to me.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I didn't I didn't realize sort of the the level to which I uh I took my freedoms for granted.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: So then that that experience really changed your perspective of uh the faith or church or Christians?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_05: It did.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_05: One of the things that I learned, and again, part of this was an internal learning, is that mental illness is still a dirty little secret in the church.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there's this, you know, you look at the statistics, it's something like one in four people in America have been diagnosed with a mental illness of some sort.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_05: You know, just dwell on that, think about that for a second.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_05: That's that's only those who have been diagnosed.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_05: Who knows how many people are struggling undiagnosed?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so the chances are that whoever's listening to this, they either struggle with a mental illness of some kind or they know someone in their immediate circle who does.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Probably multiple people.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: So this is a very personal issue for everybody.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_05: It is.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_05: I 100% agree.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_05: And it's, you know, I I had to, I realized how uh I realized this idea of mental illness being a dirty little seeker, just in the context of you know, people reaching out to me.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_05: Hey, I haven't heard from you in a week.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_05: How you doing?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_05: What have you been up to?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_05: And like I had to really think about how how honest am I gonna be?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not Kence, I'm not a liar, but I I really had to think about, oh, you know.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_05: I was away do I say, yeah, I was, I was, I was, I was visiting some people, I was with friends, new friends.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that doesn't really make a nice, snappy Facebook update status thing.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_05: You know, so I even in writing this article, I thought long and hard about whether there was something I wanted to address or not, whether I wanted to be this honest.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_05: You know, so so you think about this reality that you know 25, if 25% of people in America are are struggling, uh have a diagnosed struggle with a mental illness, and it's probably not that different in the church.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't think it's any different.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Probably maybe it's higher.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, and and and and yet you you still hear, you know, you still hear sermons like seven steps to a successful life, you know, or or the the examples that pastors give of struggles.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_05: You know, instead what you hear is you hear really unfortunate correlations like, well, you're you know, depression is just not resting in the joy of the Lord.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_05: Anxiety is not is not trusting God enough.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_05: And look, I'm not I'm not trying to separate out the the spiritual components from from from mental illness, because I I actually think one of the biggest problems we have is we we we try and do that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_05: We try and act like the soul doesn't affect the mind, doesn't affect the spirit, doesn't affect the body.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_05: We're holistic beings, everything affects everything.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_05: It does.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we're really comfortable with that idea in the context of, oh, I'm about to go, I'm I'm about to go do some public speaking.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_05: I have butterflies in my stomach.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's pray about it and they'll go away.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_05: Or or even, you know, uh and uh and uh I I also have diabetes, you know.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_05: I've never once had someone say to me, you know, if you really had more faith, then you wouldn't have that then you wouldn't have diabetes.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah or you shouldn't take your medication because that that's really demonstrating that you don't believe God's got a hold of you.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_05: But there's a different world when it comes to mental illnesses.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I've never understood that because I mean these are medical conditions.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like when I take medication, and I've been very open about my own journey with depression over the years.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: When I don't take my medication, I feel it physically.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I know that if I go a certain number of days, I'm gonna feel it even worse, you know.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's like a medical thing, but yet we treat that differently.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: We put it in some type of different category, and I don't understand why we do that.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_05: I I wish I understood that.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_05: I know that that part of it is just a lack of training.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_05: A lot of pastors don't feel equipped.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there are studies out there with that that show something like 70% of pastors say they're not comfortable talking about mental illness or being part of a support system.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_05: You know, that's a really high number.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: Well, many pastors would probably benefit from being in a support system, you know.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, as I as I talked to so many pastors here and there, you know, just over the years, I mean many pastors are really, really lonely.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: And um because of the the nature of uh church ministry and what all that means and the pressures and sometimes the really unclear measurements of success and and all those kind of things.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, you know um pastors may be one of the the highest at-risk vocational groups for you know mental illness and pressure and and all those things.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_05: And that wouldn't surprise me at all.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me for sure.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: But yet because it is kind of a stigma in the the Christian community, many times pastors are are wanting to seek out help.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: And they feel hopeless in this because hey, if they get help, then then that's a judgment on them somehow, which is totally bogus.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I agree with you.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_05: You know, that so so that there was a there was a moment for me to circle back to sort of my my time in the psych ward.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_05: There was a moment for me that that that was uh so life-giving.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_05: It was when my pastor came to visit me, you know, and he he he said, I he he you know, we we sat in the this very sterile room that was probably you know barely big enough for two two chairs to be there, or it's like our knees were touching almost.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, this is uncomfortable.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_05: You know, he looks at me and he says, Chris, I you have too much to live for.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_05: I know that you're in a really dark place right now, but but you're you are still beautifully and wonderfully made.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_05: God's not done with you.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_05: Don't you go leave in us?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_05: People in our church need what you've got.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_05: And it was like it was life from the dead for me.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_05: I think, you know, shortly after that, that that meeting with my pastor, where I were sort of turned the corner and I I started to I I could recover, I could see my baseline again to go back to what I was saying earlier.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_05: You know, and it gave me hope that you know the church can be a safe haven for the mentally ill.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_05: It it's hard work, but you know, my it I know my pastor isn't the only one.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_05: He didn't, you know, he he came in, he visited me when I was in probably the darkest place I've ever been in my life, and he wasn't afraid to do it.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_05: And he didn't throw any platitudes at me.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_05: And he, as a matter of fact, he the first thing he said to me is he said, Chris, I hate to tell you this, but I have zero platitudes for you.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure that was really disappointing to you.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_05: And it I mean, I I chuckled just like you did, and it was a perfect it was a perfect way for for for him to validate, hey, you're you're still a human being.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_05: Because you you know this about me, Kent.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_05: You know that humor is a really important part of who I am.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_05: So for him to sort of come in and crack a joke right away, sort of, hey, hey, I know we're in a weird place, and I know that we're very you're we're uncomfortably close to one person.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_05: And and I understand that this is not your, you know, that you can't find your baseline, but but hey, I still love you and I still understand who you are, the baseline, you know, in your in your core being.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_05: And it was really awesome.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: I wish that every person had a pastor like that.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_05: Me too.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I've had pastors in my own life who've who've made a massive difference.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, hopefully both of us uh can make differences in people's lives as well, maybe not, you know, as vocational pastors, but hopefully everybody listening to this can be pastoral in the way that we're reaching out to and loving and serving people.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: So let's chat about the book for uh for a bit.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: What specific needs are you trying to address in the book?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh, which is called Whispers in the Pew is a great title, by the way.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: What are some of the things that you're trying to address in here and and what are you hoping that the book accomplishes?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_05: I think the biggest thing that I that I'm trying to to help people understand is that no two mental illnesses look the same and that everyone's story is is very very different you know I there there are a series of stories in there around PTSD not none of them look even remotely similar to each other there are a couple in there that are dealing dealing with depression again they're wildly different expressions of how how that depression manifests itself so this this idea that you know we we all have trauma that we that we go through in our life and the way that our that holistically our as a single person the way that we respond to these traumas the way we respond to these difficulties is going to look very different.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_05: So that's one of the things that I'm really trying to accomplish and the other thing is just pointing out that man sometimes the church is really amazing at helping people who are in the throes of a mental illness of a downtime with a mental illness.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_05: Just spectacular there's a story in there that it happens to be this this particular story I'm thinking of isn't with the church, but it's with a group of Christians where a guy literally was going to commit suicide at the end of this conference that he went to because he was so overcome with love and you know he it it changed it he's still here.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_05: He's still here that's amazing.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah I I mean so I was crying as I was reading that story because it's just such an incredible thing.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_05: And then unfortunately you have the flip side as well where you have some challenges where people are not they they don't receive the love the care the attention and the compassion that you would hope.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_05: You know one one of the other essays ends with a woman saying my family is ready to go to another church now and to join it and I don't know if I can do that.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_05: This is this is where my mental illness has left me.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know if I can join a church.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_05: I can attend but once I join then they're going to have to they're going to expect things of me and I don't know if I can trust them.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: And no no judgment just heartbreak.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: Something you do talk about in the book is the idea that some people have left their churches because they're hurt, they're frustrated.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: What are those people looking for and why can't they find what they're looking for inside the church?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah that's a tough question.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_05: You know I I I think that probably you know for for the the couple people that I that I'm thinking of who I who I know who wrote that because some some some of the essays are from friends or acquaintances.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_05: You know one of them in particular I'm I think he needs to find uh a counselor to work with that can really help him rebuild some baseline not trust isn't even the word some you know a a baseline of uh of of risk taking because whenever you know you if you have a mental illness and you're not talking about it it's a key part of your life you're near and you're in a church you're sort of playing a game you know you're not being real everyone has a mask that just happens to be the mask that you're wearing.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_05: And at some point you have to make a decision to take a risk and take that mask off and see what happens.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_05: You know and and and and and and there are some people that just aren't able to do that without without without outside professional help.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_05: You know what one thing specifically that that my church does really well that makes it a safe place for those who who are struggling with mental illness so there's this concept of of normalizing mental illness.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah saying hey hey this is something that people struggle with just as much as they they struggle with other categories and it just creates a safe environment.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah where you feel accepted and where your your weirdness is accepted as okay this is part of who I am and none of us are perfect.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and I wonder if that's a big part of the appeal of something like Celebrate Recovery where people can come and they can feel accepted no matter what kind of what they're wrestling with.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I've had multiple people at my church our church has a big celebrate recovery program.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I've had multiple people just you know not saying that I need to go like like they're not trying to say hey I'm pointing out something is weird with you and you need to go to celebrate recovery.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: But they've just genuinely said hey you should come to CR sometime because this is what church should feel like and I've kind of wondered okay how can how can we begin to make everyday church more like that where people are there's sort of like a radical acceptance of come with all your baggage and and all the things that that are not right about you and and that's part of who you are and you're accepted.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know and it's tragic that so many people feel like that's not their experience in a church.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_05: I agree with you I think I mean I I could go I could go a little theological nerdy on you here.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_05: I think that the church movement has been really unhelpful in in regards to to creating real transparent environments you know because there there are churches where you can go and like the whole idea is hey you want to be anonymous come to our church for a while and then if you decide you want to be known you can you can have that happen.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah yeah and I mean I I don't want to be super critical but I don't that that isn't the church I see in acts.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah and I understand that church that that that the form of church needs to adjust to be more to be valued and to you know in the in the uh environment and the culture that it that that we find ourselves in.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_05: I believe that radical transparency should be a part of every of every culture of a church in every culture though.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it's something that's missing.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know it's really easy to blame pastors and a lot of churches do blame pastors for this and pastors for that and you know maybe there's an element of that that's an element of that sort of finger pointing that is true to a degree in the sense of you know everything sort of rises and falls on leadership.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: But much more of the issue just lies within all of us as people of faith.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean how many times have I walked by somebody who looks like they're struggling or I've known somebody is struggling but I haven't reached out and I haven't said hey you matter as my friend and I care about you and how many times have I thought about sending an email or a text or a note but I haven't I just haven't taken the time you know so maybe maybe your book and all the things that you're talking about and doing can help spur us on a little bit in that direction of just a general awareness of caring about people and not just saying well that's the church leader's problem.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know if we're a part of the church it's all of our problem.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_05: I think you're right on Kent I love that right you know if part of the you know part of the work of this book is for people to slow down a little bit and to really pay attention to one another you know and really invest more in in each other in the church then I can't even begin to tell you how thrilled I would be yeah there's several quotes in the book that I really loved.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean the whole book is great and um obviously I'm really encouraging people to go out and and get it because this whole issue of mental health affects all of us.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe if if we don't feel like it affects us directly it does affect someone that we love almost certainly but you said my hope is that there will be room for a new way to approach mental health one that sees the person before the health condition.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: What did you mean by that seeing the person before the health condition?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: I thought that was a really intriguing way to frame that.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm curious if you can unpack that a little bit for us.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_05: Sure I'll do my best um I think what it comes down to is this no one wants to be a project no one want no no one wants to be oh well well susie's been having a really hard time lately and she's anxious so you know I should I should reach out to her because she's boy she's a mess.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_05: I think that that is viewing the the the health condition before the person viewing the person before the health condition what what would be as simple as you know Susie hasn't quite seemed herself today or or or recently I've no I've noticed that she seems a little just a little off I'm going to reach out and just see how she's doing and see where things go.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_05: You know so coming in with no agenda but relationship coming in with no with no thought other than you know how how can I be the hands and feet of Jesus to the to this person in the church.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_05: That that phrasing the hands and feet of Jesus we often put it in the in in in the context of evangelism which is unfortunate.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah because if you really take a look at the New Testament there are so many things that we're supposed to do to one another or for one another for one another sounds better than to one another.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah yeah that that totally makes a lot of sense I never thought about it in terms of not looking at somebody like a project but we do tend to do that sometimes.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: So as we kind of wrap this up normally at the end of these interviews I ask whoever the the guest is to share one or two practical takeaways for our listeners.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: So there are two specific groups that I'm thinking of one is pastors and Christian leaders and number two those who are struggling with mental illness or a mental health issue.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_05: Are there any super practical things that you would suggest to pastors or Christian leaders in terms of helping them to deal with this issue and help people in a sort of a practical way so I I think that that one part of what needs to happen or what what can happen is I've already mentioned this a couple times but but I you know just for emphasis I'll mention it again you know be uh in in in sermons and in teaching series is in your in your teaching begin to really think about and include uh mental health conditions in the examples that you give that's a great idea because that will again it will it will create a safe it'll it'll create a safe space it'll create a uh a sense of so this is what people in this church deal with okay I'm not alone that that's the key is to understand it is sort of understanding hey I'm not alone so it's almost legitimizing it yes from the stage.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_05: Yes definitely and then another thing I would suggest is really look to develop a uh first sort of know what your boundaries are know what you're you are you are comfortable and aren't comfortable with dealing dealing with if someone comes to you and says I have X that I'm dealing with you know you sort of know ahead of time whether you feel equipped and comfortable to approach that or not.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_05: And if you don't have a list of resources that you can you can point them to.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_05: So Christian counselors um maybe not all of them would be Christian counselors you know but but just different different people who would be able to provide the support that maybe is a past cool that's awesome.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: Hi buddy what about um those who struggle with mental illness um and maybe this is like a super duper loaded question but what are some immediate steps if someone is in a very dark place right now what would you recommend maybe one or two or three things that they they could do immediately to begin to get out of that dark place that is that is a really heavy question but I'll do my best to answer it.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_05: The very first thing is to call someone anyone who will listen and who will care whether whether that's something like a national suicide hotline in my case it was my wife don't stay alone don't don't think that you you're going to be able to or that you ought to or that you should walk through this this journey alone because we're not built to to deal with really heavy things whether it's mental illness or other something else yeah God built us for community and diving you know pushing into community which is so hard because you have to know who a safe person is.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_05: Again there's that risk of taking off the mask and saying hi I'm Chris and I'm and I'm feeling suicidal today and having someone go, well have you considered Jesus that that could be the least helpful thing that someone could possibly it could be.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_05: So there's this thought of having to really carefully consider who to open up to which is why some of these other resources like the you know I think of the National Suicide Prevention Hotline is a is a good source because you know that they're going to they're not going to say have you considered Jesus um another thing that's been really helpful for me this this may not be helpful for everyone but it's certainly been helpful for me is to is this sort of you know uh for for me it's writing but in some way have some sort of outlet for sort of expressing what it is that's happening.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_05: It's a great idea.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_05: That's a little outside the box but I think that it can be really helpful for people to just write you know maybe it maybe it looks like a journal maybe it doesn't.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_05: You know a journal when I say journal sometimes people think that it has to have like a very specific format.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_05: I just mean sort of like you know belch on the page and whatever happens happened.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: And don't you think there's something also to be said for working on our friendships in the times where we're not in crisis?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because when we're in crisis those those are the people that we're going to count on.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_05: Well I think that's huge.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_05: You know I I think back to the fact that you know with my own story where where Barbara was able to call I mean literally I probably had 12 people calling me over the course of an hour each one just calling to see how I'm doing just making sure I wasn't alone yeah and every single one of them it's is it was it's a a close valued friend who I've spent a lot of time sort of investing in and in that friendship and I and it's you know I'd have been in trouble more trouble if I didn't if there weren't all those people who were calling and just checking in on me.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: And each of those people who were checking in on you either have had in the past or will have at some point in the future some type of crisis of their own that that then you will respond to.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you know we're all gonna hit crisis points.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah you're right and and some of the friendships specifically sort of have sort of been birthed out of crisis points from either my life or their life.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well Chris this has been really really well I was gonna say it's been really fun.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: Fun isn't probably the right word um I would say educational enlightening inspiring you know because we don't associate this topic of mental health and mental illness with fun necessarily but but it's part of our lives and I'm I really appreciate your bravery in kind of putting your own story out there.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think that is that's inspiring to me personally.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: I've always appreciated your friendship and I appreciate your craftsmanship as a writer.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm honestly a little jealous because I read your stuff and I go man how come I couldn't have phrased something that way it's like it raises my own bar up a little bit.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like I gotta work harder to be that good.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I really appreciate all the the goodness that you're adding to the world in in various ways and I really hope some good things happen with this book.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's a really really wonderful book and I hope that you and and all the contributors to the book are able to help a lot of people with it.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: So so thank you.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you Kaz I really appreciate the time I hope that you enjoyed that interview with Chris as much as I did.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: If you've listened to a few of these episodes you know that at the end of every interview I always share three specific things that I learned and as always I have three of those to share with you again today.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: These are simply some key action steps that you can put into practice right away to start making a bigger impact in your life and creative work.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: So here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Chris.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Number one is be aware of people who are struggling around you.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know it's so easy to ignore other people today.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: We're all busy with jobs most of us have families, church, social media, hobbies, and a million other things that take up our time and our attention.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: But if we pause long enough and really look and really listen to the people around us, we will very easily see other people who are struggling in some way, shape or form.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly I was really heartbroken by Chris's story of being in a psych ward but then looking around and seeing all these people who in his words were forgotten.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody should ever be forgotten.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody should be in a place in their life where nobody comes to see them in a hospital or a psych ward or anywhere else where they could easily be overlooked.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: That should never be the case.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it's up to us to be aware of people who are struggling in our lives we just got to pause and look around and notice the people around us who need our help in some way.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: Number two is seek help if you're struggling.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: I've written publicly about my own battle with depression and you can find links to a couple of posts in the resources section of the show notes for this episode.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: I know what it's like to be in a very dark place emotionally and mentally.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: I don't need to recap all that here but you can go back and read those posts if you'd like to all that I really want to say now is that if you're struggling, if you're having suicidal thoughts if you're in a very dark place, please call a friend, call a pastor, get in touch with a counselor or ask somebody that you know for help.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: Your life is too valuable and the gifts that you have to offer to the world are too important to throw those away.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I would be remiss if I didn't mention the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: You can find the website at Suicide Prevention Lifeline dot org that's suicidepreventionlifeline dot org or you can call the number at one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five that's one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five and then finally number three life is bigger than our art.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes of course this podcast is about creativity and about making the best art that we can as creative people.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: However I think it's also important to remember that we're a part of a bigger community of people we're a part of the bigger story of humanity than just our small story.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: This episode is specifically about being aware of other people's pain.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's about having empathy it's about loving people it's about serving people it's about our common humanity with each other.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: And as I mentioned just a minute ago we've got to slow down and start paying attention to other people more rather than being consumed with our own lives a hundred percent of the time I think that is far more important than any other single piece of art that we ever create.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean yes our art is important we're put on this earth to bring something of value to other people to to honor God and to serve other people with our gifts and with our life but there's a bigger story at work than just the art that we create.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: I believe that the most important art we create is the art of relationships with other people.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah you might be a writer you might be a painter you might be a pastor who's writing sermons you might be a teacher you might be a dancer or a graphic designer or a filmmaker or any of a thousand other things that involve the creative arts.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: But what's way more important than all those things combined is the art that we create when we're loving other people, when we're empathizing with them, when we're serving them when we have good relationships with them.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: You might be a great artist with a capital A, but if you ignore the needs of the people that are in your life and you're ignoring the needs of the people right around you, we've missed the bigger picture if we do that.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: So I believe life is bigger than our art and our greatest art is connecting with other people in good relationships.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: Well friends that wraps up this episode of the podcast you can find the show notes at KentSanders.net slash Chris that's where you'll find all the links and lots of other good stuff.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: This episode was produced by me, Kent Sanders and our associate producer Ben Sanders.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: I also want to give a shout out to today's podcast partners who were Julie Mahan, Eric Elder and Anna Real.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: You can find their links in the show notes.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: If you enjoyed this episode please subscribe and leave a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: You can do that by visiting KentSanders.net slash iTunes and finally if you enjoyed this episode please consider sharing it with a friend or a family member who you think would benefit from it.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: You can find lots more resources to help unlock your creative potential at KentSanders.net.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: Until next time remember that you were born to create and designed to make a difference.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: Now go create something awesome