Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / COPS: PREP SCHOOL GRAD USES GOLF CLUB TO KILL BROTHER FACES PROBABLE CAUSE HEARING

Transcript

COPS: PREP SCHOOL GRAD USES GOLF CLUB TO KILL BROTHER FACES PROBABLE CAUSE HEARING · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last Days.
0:07
Speaker 2: A star athlete accused in his brother's gruesome murder back
0:13
Speaker 2: in court as prosecutors prepare an indictment. I'm Nancy Grace,
0:19
Speaker 2: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
0:22
Speaker 1: That's right.
0:23
Speaker 2: A Princeton man known as a star student now accused
0:26
Speaker 2: of murdering his own brother and the family cat. He
0:31
Speaker 2: was in court prosecutors preparing to take his case to
0:34
Speaker 2: a secret grand jury. The victim, twenty six year old
0:38
Speaker 2: Joseph Hurt getting the family superstar, brutally murdered in the
0:43
Speaker 2: family's Princeton apartment with a knife and a golf club.
0:48
Speaker 2: A probable cause hearing is set down for the next
0:51
Speaker 2: few weeks, but that may be totally sidestepped if the
0:57
Speaker 2: state gets an indictment first. A probable cause hearing is
1:02
Speaker 2: when evidence is brought forth to a magistrate judge. The
1:06
Speaker 2: judge decides if there's enough probable cause for the case
1:10
Speaker 2: to be bound over to superior court or felony court.
1:15
Speaker 2: But all that can be easily sidestepped if the state
1:20
Speaker 2: simply takes the case to a grand jury.
1:22
Speaker 1: A probable cause hearing is never a good thing. For
1:25
Speaker 1: the state.
1:25
Speaker 2: Why because it's a public hearing and the defense gets
1:29
Speaker 2: a chance to cross examine the state's witnesses.
1:33
Speaker 1: That's kind of like a dry run for the trial. No, no, no, don't.
1:39
Speaker 2: Do that, go to grand jury. That said, what do
1:43
Speaker 2: we believe happened? Based on police sources and police reports
1:47
Speaker 2: we've managed to obtain.
1:48
Speaker 3: Listen, flashing lights and sirens break the usual silence outside
1:51
Speaker 3: the luxury of Michelle Muse's apartments just off Princeton University campus.
1:55
Speaker 3: Around eleven to fifteen pm, police answer a nine to
1:58
Speaker 3: one one call to the nearly seventh thousand dollars a
2:00
Speaker 3: month complex reporting a death in a fire. Units in
2:03
Speaker 3: the building sell for as much as two million dollars.
2:06
Speaker 3: As responders arrive, flames are not visible, and police work
2:09
Speaker 3: to gain access to the building.
2:11
Speaker 1: True words were never spoken.
2:13
Speaker 2: Money can't buy love or happiness a seven thousand dollars
2:18
Speaker 2: a month apartment, and they can't be happy with every
2:23
Speaker 2: luxury they could be provided. Still, brother kills Brother, a
2:29
Speaker 2: story as old as Genesis. Joining me an all star
2:32
Speaker 2: panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight,
2:34
Speaker 2: straight out to Karen Wall, Senior Local Editor, Patch Media.
2:40
Speaker 1: Karen thank you for being with us.
2:41
Speaker 2: First of all, can you describe where this occurred?
2:47
Speaker 4: This apartment is in on the middle of a very
2:52
Speaker 4: new complex. These apartments were built in twenty nineteen, it appears,
2:57
Speaker 4: and they're right in the middle of Homer Square, which
3:01
Speaker 4: is high end shops. That the whole block where they
3:05
Speaker 4: are is essentially self contained. The apartment isn't accessible directly
3:12
Speaker 4: from the street. You have to go through an archway
3:14
Speaker 4: to get into it.
3:15
Speaker 1: When you say luxury shops, what do you mean by that?
3:17
Speaker 4: We're talking high end boutiques, you know where you're not
3:21
Speaker 4: walking in there unless you're pulling down thousands of dollars
3:24
Speaker 4: a month in income.
3:27
Speaker 2: You know, it's amazing to me to look at all
3:29
Speaker 2: these photos and guys, we're getting these photos that you're
3:31
Speaker 2: seeing right there off there the family's social media. That's
3:36
Speaker 2: where we're learning so much about these two soccer star brothers.
3:41
Speaker 1: Now one dad. You know Phil Waters, help me out here.
3:44
Speaker 2: Phil Waters, guys, you know him well, former homicide detective
3:47
Speaker 2: for Houston PD, President's CEO Kindred Spirits Investigations. Phil, I mean,
3:54
Speaker 2: I've been in so many housing projects, Trump through crack houses, brothels.
4:01
Speaker 1: For lack of the better word.
4:04
Speaker 2: You name it under bridges and strip clubs where murders
4:08
Speaker 2: go down. But really you're looking down at what Brooks
4:14
Speaker 2: brothers and Ann Taylor. That's probably not posh enough actually
4:17
Speaker 2: with and these people still with all of that, they
4:22
Speaker 2: still have to kill each other. I mean, these two
4:25
Speaker 2: were soccer stars at preppy schools, bringing in tons of money,
4:30
Speaker 2: silver spoon, the works.
4:32
Speaker 1: What is wrong with these people?
4:34
Speaker 5: Well, it just goes to show that people with money
4:36
Speaker 5: still have problems like the rest of us.
4:39
Speaker 2: As you already wait, Phil, okay, don't start it off wrong.
4:46
Speaker 1: Then okay, problems, Yeah, problems.
4:49
Speaker 2: But I don't have the problem that I want to
4:51
Speaker 2: murder a family member and our cat and dog and
4:55
Speaker 2: guinea pig.
4:56
Speaker 1: I don't have that. I don't call that really a problem.
4:58
Speaker 2: I call a problem an illness, a family member with
5:02
Speaker 2: maybe an addiction, going broke and losing your home and
5:06
Speaker 2: living under.
5:06
Speaker 1: A bridge, those are problems.
5:09
Speaker 2: The urge, the sudden, urged a club, your brother dead
5:13
Speaker 2: with a golf club, then stab him. I call that
5:15
Speaker 2: a problem. I call that premeditation and murderous intent.
5:20
Speaker 5: Well, I would have to say that is something like
5:22
Speaker 5: this regardless of the setting. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.
5:27
Speaker 5: And what I have noticed that if I have a
5:29
Speaker 5: case like this, in all my cases that I always
5:31
Speaker 5: put together a psychological autopsy on the suspect, because when
5:34
Speaker 5: I get them in the interview room, I want to
5:36
Speaker 5: be able to address the wise behind the act. And
5:40
Speaker 5: in this particular case, the one thing I've noticed is
5:43
Speaker 5: that in the description in the media of these two men,
5:50
Speaker 5: the younger brother the victim here, Joseph has always described
5:55
Speaker 5: in his great successes in high school, and his great
5:59
Speaker 5: successes in college at the University of Michigan with the soccer,
6:05
Speaker 5: with his academics, and then his success with his job,
6:10
Speaker 5: the work that he's been involved in. And then when
6:13
Speaker 5: you talk about the description of the brother a suspect
6:18
Speaker 5: in this case, it just says he played soccer at Wesleyan.
6:23
Speaker 5: So there is a real backstory here that is yet
6:27
Speaker 5: to develop. But I would tell you that this didn't happen.
6:31
Speaker 5: This was not an instant decision. This is something that
6:34
Speaker 5: has been building, building, building, and this is you know
6:37
Speaker 5: what we would call a smoking gun case. Well, in
6:41
Speaker 5: this case, it's a smoking golf club.
6:43
Speaker 2: No, no to everything you just said. All of what
6:47
Speaker 2: you just said may very well be true. Okay, may
6:51
Speaker 2: be true, but what you are describing is a motive
6:56
Speaker 2: for murder, and that motive is jealousy. I still don't
7:00
Speaker 2: see that as a problem that we all have a
7:04
Speaker 2: family problem that would lead to a drastic act. In
7:10
Speaker 2: my mind, would be something severe or not. You're jealous
7:13
Speaker 2: of your little brother because he outdid you on the
7:15
Speaker 2: soccer field. And speaking of jealousy in this case. To
7:20
Speaker 2: special guests joining us, Sam Bassett, renown criminal defense attorney
7:25
Speaker 2: at Minton Bassett, Flores and Carsey, and let me add
7:30
Speaker 2: former president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Educational Institute, Sam,
7:36
Speaker 2: I hear everything fil just said, and he may be
7:39
Speaker 2: factually one hundred percent accurate.
7:43
Speaker 1: But about five years.
7:44
Speaker 2: Into prosecuting nothing but violent crime, I was looking over
7:48
Speaker 2: at a defense a killer, a murderer, and it wasn't
7:52
Speaker 2: his first time, and I thought, why why would he
7:57
Speaker 2: leave such a wake of pain behind him over nothing?
8:01
Speaker 2: And then it hit me five years It took me
8:04
Speaker 2: why ask why? Because the state never has to prove motive,
8:09
Speaker 2: does it, Sambassett, it does not.
8:12
Speaker 6: I think this case kind of has a resonating theme.
8:15
Speaker 6: In Texas a few years ago, we had a Clay
8:17
Speaker 6: case where the defense put on an expert to talk
8:20
Speaker 6: about the affluenza, the psychological effect of wealth and privilege
8:27
Speaker 6: on a young man who had committed a crime, and
8:31
Speaker 6: to try to mitigate the responsibility. Now that fell on
8:35
Speaker 6: unsympathetic ears for ninety percent of the public.
8:39
Speaker 7: Because.
8:41
Speaker 6: It's hard to stomach, as you said, it's hard to
8:43
Speaker 6: stomach how somebody with all these privileges and all these.
8:48
Speaker 7: Blessings could do something like this.
8:50
Speaker 6: And I think you have to begin to peel the
8:52
Speaker 6: onion skin layers and try to understand what was going
8:55
Speaker 6: on inside this older brother's head. Other than just let
9:00
Speaker 6: it has to be something even.
9:02
Speaker 1: Worse you just said, the state doesn't have to prove motive.
9:07
Speaker 2: Why do I have to get in his head and
9:10
Speaker 2: look around in there to figure out why he brutally
9:13
Speaker 2: murdered his brother and the family cat. Now you were
9:17
Speaker 2: referring to a defense called affluenza when typically an adult
9:23
Speaker 2: manchild is so used to a silver spoon in his
9:27
Speaker 2: mouth that he can't relate to real life.
9:30
Speaker 1: Now, see right now, you're barking up the wrong tree.
9:34
Speaker 2: My dad worked the swing shift for the railroad my
9:37
Speaker 2: whole life, and my mom started off as a bank teller.
9:40
Speaker 2: All right, So the whole affluenza I'm too rich to
9:44
Speaker 2: be held accountable thing is not working right here. But
9:48
Speaker 2: speaking of the affluenza teen, he was not a teen.
9:52
Speaker 2: But the affluenza defense you're referring to Ethan Couch. I
9:56
Speaker 2: remember him well, a Terran County case.
9:58
Speaker 1: Listen nine one one.
10:01
Speaker 7: What is your ass emergency? There's a record road we
10:06
Speaker 7: need commnbuloce. We flipped and again, okay were you involved? Oh,
10:14
Speaker 7: I was in the truck. Okay, you're in the truck.
10:17
Speaker 7: Are you injured? We just to help it. And how
10:23
Speaker 7: many people are injured? Just for my record, dude, I
10:26
Speaker 7: have no idea. You don't know how many people are
10:29
Speaker 7: injured we're calling.
10:33
Speaker 1: That's him, Ethan Couch.
10:35
Speaker 2: He flipped his souped up truck, killing three, killing three,
10:42
Speaker 2: including a youth minister on the side of the road,
10:44
Speaker 2: trying to change a woman's flat tire, and permanently, permanently
10:52
Speaker 2: paralyzing another victim.
10:55
Speaker 1: And take a listen to the sentence. Look at my brother.
10:58
Speaker 8: He's doing more than a twin day period one twenty
11:01
Speaker 8: eight or whatever he's doing more than ten years of probation.
11:06
Speaker 3: Ethan Couch is such a spoiled child. When he kills
11:09
Speaker 3: four people while driving under the influence of drugs and
11:12
Speaker 3: speeding through a residential area, his attorney creates a special
11:15
Speaker 3: defense for him due to his affluenza and placed the
11:19
Speaker 3: blame for the car crash and the deaths squarely on
11:22
Speaker 3: the shoulders of his parents for never punishing him for
11:24
Speaker 3: anything he does wrong and giving him everything he wants.
11:28
Speaker 2: If it had been prosecuted for murder, he'd be in
11:30
Speaker 2: jail right now. As it was, it was a lesser
11:33
Speaker 2: voluntary He could have gotten twenty years behind bars on
11:36
Speaker 2: each count. But what did he get, An unspecified sentence
11:41
Speaker 2: to a treatment facility. He goes on the run and
11:46
Speaker 2: he's found with his mother hold up in a five
11:49
Speaker 2: star resort in Mexico. He was caught ordering room service,
11:57
Speaker 2: ordering pizza. Okay him, Ethan cows, you brought it up.
12:03
Speaker 2: I didn't affluenza, and that's what we're saying here as well.
12:08
Speaker 2: When you heard from Alex Molina, the brother of the
12:12
Speaker 2: permanently paralyzed Sergio Molina, that was from our friends at
12:17
Speaker 2: fort Worth Star telegram back to this case.
12:22
Speaker 9: Listen eleven sixteen pm Saturday night, Princeton Police receive a
12:26
Speaker 9: nine to one one call about a dead body and
12:28
Speaker 9: a fire in an apartment building. The caller, Matthew Hurkin,
12:32
Speaker 9: remains cryptic on the phone, not answering the dispatcher's questions
12:35
Speaker 9: about who is dead, why they are dead, who owns
12:39
Speaker 9: the apartment?
12:40
Speaker 3: And more?
12:41
Speaker 9: Police and first responders surround the building. But nothing could
12:44
Speaker 9: have prepared officers for what they found inside.
12:48
Speaker 2: Two Our friend Karen Wool joining us from Patch media.
12:53
Speaker 1: What did they find inside?
12:55
Speaker 4: Karen reporting says that they found Joseph dead, the family
13:01
Speaker 4: cat dead, and they found a bloody knife plate and
13:08
Speaker 4: Joseph's eyeball missing. The cat apparently had been set on fire.
13:19
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last days.
13:26
Speaker 2: A star athlete accused in his Princeton brother's horrific murder
13:32
Speaker 2: in court as prosecutors prepare to take the case to
13:36
Speaker 2: a grand jury. What happened in that Princeton apartment Joining
13:40
Speaker 2: us right now, Phil Waters, veteran homicide detective.
13:44
Speaker 1: It was a rage attack. Why do you say that.
13:47
Speaker 5: Well, just the scene itself. When I walk into a
13:49
Speaker 5: scene like this. The first thing that's going to stick
13:52
Speaker 5: out to me is it's overkill. You know, this use
13:56
Speaker 5: of a golf club and a knife and the condition
14:00
Speaker 5: of the body of the victim. And then you've got
14:02
Speaker 5: this this subtext over here with the killing of the cat.
14:07
Speaker 5: So there's some kind of symbolism here between everything that
14:10
Speaker 5: happened in that scene. This is one of these things
14:12
Speaker 5: where as I walked into any scene, I let it
14:14
Speaker 5: talk to me. I want to take a look at it,
14:17
Speaker 5: and what are these things indicate to me about what
14:19
Speaker 5: happened in this moment in time in that apartment.
14:23
Speaker 2: Doctor jan Gorniac is joining us renowned former medical examiner
14:28
Speaker 2: and the Clark County Office of Medical Examiners as in Vegas,
14:32
Speaker 2: never lack of business. She's seen more dead bodies than
14:36
Speaker 2: probably all of us put together, even having visited many
14:40
Speaker 2: crime saying, doctor Gorniac, thank you for being with us.
14:42
Speaker 2: Do you agree with Phil's assessment, Phil Waters that this
14:47
Speaker 2: is a rage attack?
14:49
Speaker 8: If so, why I am not sure I can agree
14:52
Speaker 8: with that because that's outside of my lane. So as
14:55
Speaker 8: a friendtic pathologist or a death investigator, we go in
14:59
Speaker 8: and we note the injuries that we see but to
15:03
Speaker 8: categorize it as a rage, that's not what we typically do.
15:09
Speaker 8: But I can understand why Phil is saying that an
15:12
Speaker 8: overkill because the use of more than one weapon golf
15:16
Speaker 8: club and a sharp force instrument as the knife.
15:20
Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious, doctor Gorniac, when you say overkill, what.
15:26
Speaker 1: Do you mean by that? And what here leads you
15:30
Speaker 1: to call it overkill?
15:31
Speaker 8: Well, the use of more than one weapon. So you
15:35
Speaker 8: have a blunt object, which is the golf club, and
15:37
Speaker 8: then you have a sharp force weapon, which is a knife.
15:40
Speaker 8: I'm not sure exactly what injuries he has, but it
15:43
Speaker 8: sounds like most of them are from the golf club.
15:48
Speaker 8: I've done plenty of cases, both blunt force injuries and
15:52
Speaker 8: sharp force injuries. Sometimes you have one stab woman and
15:55
Speaker 8: someone is dead. Sometimes you have ninety six. So depending
15:59
Speaker 8: on that or just number of wounds that you can
16:01
Speaker 8: take a golf club and strike somebody in the head
16:04
Speaker 8: one time and cause their death, or you strike them
16:07
Speaker 8: about the body and not only do they have head injury,
16:10
Speaker 8: but they have chest injury, heart lacerations, liver lacerations.
16:14
Speaker 2: Doctor Gorniac, have you ever seen a murder victim that
16:17
Speaker 2: had a body part gouged out as in this case.
16:20
Speaker 1: I have not been twenty years. I've been practicing.
16:25
Speaker 8: I've had dismembered bodies, But to gouge out an eye
16:30
Speaker 8: in this case, I.
16:33
Speaker 1: Think that would have given me.
16:34
Speaker 8: The willies if I was at that scene, because I mean,
16:37
Speaker 8: I've seen a lot, but that probably would have been
16:39
Speaker 8: a little bit too much for me.
16:41
Speaker 2: You know, I want to go to doctor Jeff Kalashevski again,
16:44
Speaker 2: Doctor Jeff.
16:46
Speaker 1: Why and criminal law doesn't matter? Now?
16:50
Speaker 2: Practically speaking? It does actually because a jury wants to
16:54
Speaker 2: hear what's the motive?
16:56
Speaker 1: Right? They want to hear?
16:58
Speaker 2: Could you describe what is the middle child syndrome? The
17:05
Speaker 2: alleged killer the brother in this case was the middle child.
17:09
Speaker 2: The older brother superstar. The younger brother eclipsed the suspect
17:17
Speaker 2: in every way. He himself was a shining star. He
17:21
Speaker 2: played soccer at a really ritzy prep school in Toms River.
17:26
Speaker 2: He went on to play soccer a starting soccer player
17:30
Speaker 2: for another elite prep school, Wesleyan. I guess that wasn't
17:37
Speaker 2: enough to satisfy his ego.
17:40
Speaker 1: What's with the middle child syndrome?
17:42
Speaker 10: Well, there's this stereotype that the middle child gets less attention,
17:47
Speaker 10: so that they have to do things to get more attention.
17:50
Speaker 10: But this is clearly beyond a middle child who's jealous
17:54
Speaker 10: of a little brother. There's a lot more going on
17:56
Speaker 10: in this case than that. Just when we talked earlier
18:00
Speaker 10: about using a golf club and then a knife, we
18:05
Speaker 10: talked about is this a rage killing. There's more going
18:08
Speaker 10: on than this. You know, someone uses a golf club,
18:11
Speaker 10: and I've had plenty of cases where people have used
18:13
Speaker 10: golf clubs and gouged out eyes and said pets on fire.
18:16
Speaker 10: Believe it or not, the golf club can't kill you,
18:20
Speaker 10: but it's usually it can be on one hip, but
18:23
Speaker 10: it's not a very efficient murder weapon. So for what
18:27
Speaker 10: we talked about already, in this case, this killer was
18:30
Speaker 10: obviously into the experience of the murder. Took it a
18:35
Speaker 10: step further where gouging out eyeballs. This is an experience
18:39
Speaker 10: rather than just aim I want to off my brother
18:41
Speaker 10: that I'm jealous of and then the idea of setting
18:44
Speaker 10: the cat on fire. Again, for some reason, this person
18:47
Speaker 10: is carrying out these acts and these murders for the
18:52
Speaker 10: experience rather than just the motivation or the aim that
18:55
Speaker 10: I want to off my little brother who I'm jealous of.
18:58
Speaker 1: Okay, Kelly's ask you hold on just a JD.
19:01
Speaker 2: I'm not a forensic psychologist like your author of Dark
19:04
Speaker 2: Sides on YouTube, doctor Jeff Kalischewski, forensic psychologist, Doctor Jeff
19:11
Speaker 2: the experience. We've been analyzing that theory in depth when
19:17
Speaker 2: it relates to Brian Koberger, the PhD criminology student out
19:25
Speaker 2: at Pullman in Washington State, and the working theory is
19:31
Speaker 2: that with no connection to the four murdered college students
19:38
Speaker 2: murdered in their own beds in the wee hours of
19:41
Speaker 2: the morning before Thanksgiving break because he was obsessed with
19:46
Speaker 2: the experience. He had been asking in a study for
19:54
Speaker 2: his PhD, asking violent felons a questionnaire like what did
19:59
Speaker 2: you feel just before you committed the crime? What were
20:03
Speaker 2: you thinking? What were you feeling, what went through your mind?
20:06
Speaker 2: What did it feel like when you identified your quote target?
20:10
Speaker 1: How did you feel during it?
20:12
Speaker 2: Were you cognizant of finding a way out or a
20:15
Speaker 2: quick exit? In retrospect, how do you feel about what
20:19
Speaker 2: you experienced.
20:20
Speaker 1: During the crime. He was obsessed with it, then.
20:24
Speaker 2: Carefully plotted and planned the murders and then carried them out,
20:29
Speaker 2: many people thinking his desire was the experience to know
20:35
Speaker 2: what it feels like to kill someone. What are you
20:40
Speaker 2: talking about in this case the middle child syndrome. The
20:45
Speaker 2: middle child wants the experience of gouging his little brother's
20:49
Speaker 2: eyeball out.
20:51
Speaker 10: For some reason, he does because, again, if this was
20:53
Speaker 10: a simple, straightforward I hate my brother and I'm going
20:56
Speaker 10: to kill him, like you said, that goes all the
20:58
Speaker 10: way back to Genesis, have been done a lot more efficiently,
21:02
Speaker 10: and it would have not taken us long. In this
21:06
Speaker 10: experience of using a couple murder weapons, gouging the eyeball,
21:10
Speaker 10: setting the cat on fire. There's more here than just
21:13
Speaker 10: a straightforward murder with a motivation of jealousy or just
21:17
Speaker 10: a hate of your brother.
21:18
Speaker 2: Hey, doctor Jeff Kalswski, listen to this. The of course,
21:22
Speaker 2: cause of death for Joseph is pending autopsy, but we
21:26
Speaker 2: know he was bludgeoned. According to police sources that spoke
21:30
Speaker 2: to the post, Matthew played. Now this is the suspect.
21:36
Speaker 2: Brother Matthew Hurtkin, now thirty one, no longer a fresh shide,
21:42
Speaker 2: fresh faced, bright eyed team playing soccer.
21:46
Speaker 1: He's a grown man.
21:48
Speaker 2: I bet you anything, living off his mom and dad,
21:50
Speaker 2: but that remains to be saying. He played soccer at
21:52
Speaker 2: Tom's River North High School and went on to play
21:56
Speaker 2: at the elite Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Okay, so he
22:02
Speaker 2: played college soccer. That's a big deal. That's hard to do.
22:06
Speaker 2: Very few people make it onto a starting college sports team.
22:12
Speaker 2: I don't care how great you are in little league,
22:15
Speaker 2: You're probably not going to make it onto a college team.
22:18
Speaker 2: He did, and he played on the college team for
22:21
Speaker 2: years at Wesleyan.
22:24
Speaker 1: Was that not enough for his ego?
22:27
Speaker 2: Then comes along Little Brother, a three time academic All
22:31
Speaker 2: Big Ten soccer player, played at University Michigan twenty sixteen
22:37
Speaker 2: to twenty nineteen. He the Little Brother now murdered high school,
22:41
Speaker 2: two time MVP off as a Player of the Year,
22:46
Speaker 2: graduated from the Steven m Ross School of Business, and
22:50
Speaker 2: had a career in asset management.
22:52
Speaker 1: Per the News now hold on, Phil.
22:56
Speaker 2: Waters was describing these two brothers, and there's an older brother,
23:00
Speaker 2: by the way, an older brother, Joseph Hertgan, who is
23:05
Speaker 2: a shining star in his career. Phil Waters, you were
23:09
Speaker 2: talking about how he just couldn't find that much about
23:13
Speaker 2: the alleged killer. Nobody can we find out a lot
23:17
Speaker 2: about the victim. We found out a lot about the
23:20
Speaker 2: older brother, but not much about the alleged killer brother.
23:25
Speaker 1: Phil, You're right, well.
23:27
Speaker 5: I tell you what, It's just an indication. And again,
23:29
Speaker 5: and I'm looking at this thing as a homicide top
23:32
Speaker 5: walking into this scene. I agree with the doctor to
23:34
Speaker 5: the good degree that once he started the killing, that
23:40
Speaker 5: he was getting into the experience. But look, it started
23:45
Speaker 5: that this fuse started burning a long time ago, in
23:50
Speaker 5: my opinion, and it finally got to the point where
23:53
Speaker 5: something happened in that apartment that day between he and
23:56
Speaker 5: his brother that finally blew the lid off of this.
24:00
Speaker 5: And so again, these things don't happen in a vacuum.
24:04
Speaker 5: I just think it is. It's I think there's more
24:08
Speaker 5: to it than just a simple jealousy.
24:11
Speaker 1: This is something that is.
24:12
Speaker 5: Built and built and built over years from a lot
24:15
Speaker 5: of different directions. And I think the fact that we
24:19
Speaker 5: know very little about the suspect in this case to
24:22
Speaker 5: me as a homicide cop, as an indicator, That's why
24:26
Speaker 5: I would want to get him in an interview room
24:28
Speaker 5: and delve into where did this start and how did
24:32
Speaker 5: it manifest itself into this brutal evil killing.
24:36
Speaker 7: Of his brother.
24:37
Speaker 2: Did a college soccer star murder his little brother, also
24:43
Speaker 2: a college soccer star?
24:44
Speaker 1: In There's the Apartment Listen.
24:46
Speaker 3: At the University of Michigan, Joseph Hertkin continues to receive
24:49
Speaker 3: awards for academic excellence off the field. Hurtgan major's in
24:53
Speaker 3: business administration, accounting and finance graduates with honors and lands
24:57
Speaker 3: a job as an analyst for Locus Point Capital.
24:59
Speaker 1: Wow.
25:01
Speaker 2: What you were seeing is from that We are Soccer
25:03
Speaker 2: at Michigan facebook page.
25:05
Speaker 1: The little brother now did a shining star? Listen?
25:10
Speaker 3: A former college soccer player is being charged with brutally
25:13
Speaker 3: murdering his younger brother and setting their family cat on
25:16
Speaker 3: fire in a ritzy apartment just steps from Princeton University.
25:20
Speaker 3: Thirty one year old Matthew Hrkan is now in police
25:22
Speaker 3: custody in Mercer County, New Jersey, after reportedly using a
25:25
Speaker 3: golf club and a kitchen knife to bludgeon and slash
25:28
Speaker 3: baby brother Joseph Herkin, who is an even more successful athlete,
25:32
Speaker 3: to death. Police sources say the youngest Hurricane was missing
25:35
Speaker 3: an eye, and a bloody plate and fork were found
25:37
Speaker 3: not far from his body.
25:39
Speaker 2: Straight out to Sam Bassett joining us, a veteran trial
25:42
Speaker 2: lawyer out of Texas. What do you make of the
25:45
Speaker 2: fact that both murder weapons were readily accessible. It's not like, again,
25:51
Speaker 2: let's use coburger, he had to buy the murder weapon.
25:55
Speaker 2: Who is presumed innocent until proven guilty by the way,
25:58
Speaker 2: he had to buy the murder weapon on Amazon and
26:01
Speaker 2: stealthily sneak over to the murder scene. In this case,
26:06
Speaker 2: both weapons were right there, the golf club and the knife.
26:11
Speaker 2: That actually adds to the legal formula here.
26:15
Speaker 5: I think it does.
26:16
Speaker 6: I think it adds to the speculation that I might
26:18
Speaker 6: have been a rage attack, something that triggered him to
26:21
Speaker 6: be really angry at his brother and just go off
26:24
Speaker 6: on him, and he just didn't stop too.
26:27
Speaker 2: Doctor Jan Gorniac, former medical examiner in Vegas.
26:31
Speaker 1: Grniac way in.
26:32
Speaker 8: So, we were talking before about the eye gouging being
26:36
Speaker 8: post mortem.
26:37
Speaker 1: I believe it post mortem.
26:38
Speaker 8: It didn't happen during the fight because as humans, we're
26:42
Speaker 8: gonna we're gonna fight. We're going to fight back.
26:45
Speaker 1: Also where I said it, also, it's I.
26:48
Speaker 8: Guess my job is easier than the detectives or the
26:52
Speaker 8: attorneys because we're just involved with the cause and the
26:56
Speaker 8: manner of death. So we know the cause, you know,
26:58
Speaker 8: blunt for's injury, for in injuries, the manner of death
27:01
Speaker 8: is homicide. We don't deal in with the wise, but
27:05
Speaker 8: as humans we always want to know. So but we're
27:08
Speaker 8: sitting here trying to rationalize irrational behavior. And but that's
27:14
Speaker 8: what we do because it doesn't make sense. So we're
27:16
Speaker 8: trying to make sense of it and try to come
27:18
Speaker 8: up with a story. But I also have to say
27:20
Speaker 8: we haven't talked about mental health. I think mental health
27:24
Speaker 8: plays a big role in this case. We don't know
27:29
Speaker 8: his mental status. Maybe he, like you said, didn't get
27:34
Speaker 8: along with his brother, but there could be some underlying
27:36
Speaker 8: mental health issues that he is undiagnosed untreated. But there's
27:42
Speaker 8: something else definitely going on.
27:43
Speaker 2: Joining me is a renowned for a medical examiner, doctor Gorniac.
27:49
Speaker 2: Did you specialize at any point in psychiatry or psychology?
27:53
Speaker 1: I did not.
27:55
Speaker 2: I did not, Okay, but yes, you are saying there's
27:58
Speaker 2: a mental health issue. Can I ask, do you have
28:00
Speaker 2: a scentilla of evidence such as a prior diagnosis, treatment
28:06
Speaker 2: prescriptions from a doctor that he may he the alleged
28:10
Speaker 2: killer may have had.
28:11
Speaker 1: Do you know anything at all regarding that? I don't.
28:15
Speaker 8: I'm just putting it another layer into the why because
28:20
Speaker 8: we're trying to figure out what's case.
28:22
Speaker 2: So you know nothing at all about his mental health.
28:26
Speaker 1: Yet you are assuming because.
28:29
Speaker 2: He killed his brother and gots his eye out that
28:32
Speaker 2: he must have a mental illness.
28:34
Speaker 1: Is that in your supposition?
28:36
Speaker 8: That is not it? I said, we cannot not think
28:39
Speaker 8: about it. We have to think about it. We're thinking
28:41
Speaker 8: about everything else. But we do have a mental health
28:44
Speaker 8: issue in this country that there's a lot of people
28:47
Speaker 8: that aren't treated, and we have to make sure that
28:50
Speaker 8: that's not It's not the why, it's not an excuse.
28:54
Speaker 8: But this obviously is not normal behavior. You I mean,
28:58
Speaker 8: I grew up with a sister. Put up, doctor Gorniac.
29:00
Speaker 2: Yet again, doctor gordias on behalf of all murder victims
29:05
Speaker 2: across our country. Do you believe murdering anyone, let's just say,
29:11
Speaker 2: an infant lying in its crib?
29:13
Speaker 1: Do you think that no normal behavior? Okay? No, then
29:18
Speaker 1: somehow because the eyes gouge out, you.
29:21
Speaker 2: Are saying that he may, with no evidence whatsoever, have
29:26
Speaker 2: a mental health issue.
29:27
Speaker 1: And in my world.
29:28
Speaker 2: What that means is he will go to a treatment
29:31
Speaker 2: facility and ultimately walk free in about eighteen months.
29:35
Speaker 1: That's what means. Dr Gorniac.
29:38
Speaker 8: No, No, that's not what I'm saying. So because there
29:41
Speaker 8: is also you have and I'm not a lawyer. I
29:43
Speaker 8: don't try cases, but I know there's things about guilty
29:46
Speaker 8: by reason of insanity. I'm not saying he's insane, but
29:49
Speaker 8: there has to be. We can't none.
29:51
Speaker 1: Why did you bring it up?
29:52
Speaker 5: There's things I.
29:54
Speaker 2: Thought you're not saying. Then why did you bring it up?
29:58
Speaker 2: Let me something me with patch media?
30:03
Speaker 1: Karen. Isn't it true? And this is a lightning round, Karen.
30:07
Speaker 2: Isn't it true that the alleged killer, the brother the
30:11
Speaker 2: middle child.
30:12
Speaker 1: Called nine one one? Isn't that true? Yes? Yes, he
30:16
Speaker 1: called nine one one.
30:17
Speaker 2: And isn't it also true when the police arrived, he
30:21
Speaker 2: opened the door and essentially led them according to the
30:24
Speaker 2: post to, there's the body right, Yes, yes.
30:29
Speaker 1: A family tragedy in New Jersey. A Princeton murder suspect
30:33
Speaker 1: kills his younger brother and his cat with a knife
30:36
Speaker 1: and golf club.
30:39
Speaker 2: So curious if he had the wherewithal to know what
30:46
Speaker 2: he did was wrong and report it to nine one
30:50
Speaker 2: one an usher in the police. Sam Bassett, this is
30:55
Speaker 2: a yes no, because I know you're going to want
30:58
Speaker 2: to argue this till you're blue in the fact. But
31:01
Speaker 2: isn't our law in the American jurisprudence insanity is based
31:07
Speaker 2: on the old MacNaughton rule that was brought over in
31:10
Speaker 2: our common law from Great Britain. And the McNaughton rule
31:13
Speaker 2: of insanity is litmus and it is did Purp know
31:18
Speaker 2: right from wrong at the time of the incident, not
31:23
Speaker 2: now that he's lawyered up and they're saying, hey, that crazy.
31:27
Speaker 2: At the time of the incident, he had the wherewithal
31:30
Speaker 2: to know what he did was wrong and call nine
31:32
Speaker 2: one one and bring in the police.
31:34
Speaker 1: Isn't that true?
31:35
Speaker 6: That is true.
31:42
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
31:49
Speaker 2: A grand jury set to convene in the case of
31:51
Speaker 2: a star athlete charged in his own brother's murder in
31:55
Speaker 2: a Mercer County Superior courtroom. Felony prosecutors stated they planned
32:00
Speaker 2: to take Hurtkin's case to a grand jury to get
32:03
Speaker 2: an indictment. That way, in the nick of time, they
32:06
Speaker 2: beat a probable cause hearing scheduled in the next few weeks,
32:11
Speaker 2: the defendant Hurtkin agreed to pre trial detention. What does
32:15
Speaker 2: that mean that the prosecution did not need to go
32:17
Speaker 2: to court to show evidence proving why he should be
32:21
Speaker 2: held behind bars while he awaits trial. Now appearing virtually
32:27
Speaker 2: from jail, He's seemed polite during a brief appearance, telling
32:31
Speaker 2: the judge good afternoon. Yet I'm sure he's going to
32:35
Speaker 2: claim mental instability. He knew enough to say thank you
32:39
Speaker 2: when the judge told him to have a good day.
32:41
Speaker 2: As the hearing ended. To doctor Jan Gorniac, former medical
32:45
Speaker 2: examiner in Vegas, I don't tell you how to perform
32:49
Speaker 2: an autopsy.
32:51
Speaker 1: Do I Have I ever told you how to perform
32:53
Speaker 1: an autopsy?
32:54
Speaker 2: No?
32:54
Speaker 8: As, But I'm also a physician. I'm not just an autopsist.
32:58
Speaker 8: I am a dog first. So when I do autopsies,
33:03
Speaker 8: we look at not only I mean, obviously I'm not
33:05
Speaker 8: going to say whether someone is guilty or not, but
33:08
Speaker 8: I also have to look at the medical history social
33:12
Speaker 8: history of my patient also. So I just say that
33:18
Speaker 8: my patient, right, so I will.
33:20
Speaker 2: I'm not you're talking about mental health issue on the
33:23
Speaker 2: alleged killer.
33:25
Speaker 1: That's not your patient, is it? It's not, but.
33:27
Speaker 8: I'm saying, I'm saying he's crazy mental.
33:30
Speaker 1: I have anxiety.
33:32
Speaker 8: That is a mental health disorders anxiety right now, but
33:37
Speaker 8: I'm saying so depression, anxiety, personality disorder. But there's it's
33:41
Speaker 8: there's something else in my opinion, right And I'm not diagnosing.
33:45
Speaker 8: I'm not saying he's insane. I'm not saying he didn't
33:48
Speaker 8: know right from wrong. But it's part of you're trying
33:52
Speaker 8: to figure out what else is in his history? So
33:55
Speaker 8: what else is in his history? And I think medical, mental, social,
34:00
Speaker 8: it's very important when you're going to look at the
34:02
Speaker 8: totality of why someone did something.
34:05
Speaker 1: How about his main as hell? And he is consumed mind, body,
34:10
Speaker 1: and soul with decades of jealousy for his shining star
34:17
Speaker 1: little brother. What about that's not an illness?
34:21
Speaker 8: But well maybe it's a coping. Why isn't he Why
34:24
Speaker 8: isn't he able to cope with that? Why isn't he
34:26
Speaker 8: able to say congratulations together and not be that jealous?
34:30
Speaker 1: I understand, I understand that. I'm not arguing. I'm not
34:33
Speaker 1: to say I get.
34:34
Speaker 8: It, but I'm just saying we're trying to rationalize irrational
34:38
Speaker 8: behavior and I'm just saying, there's many layers to everybody,
34:42
Speaker 8: and we have to look at his social history. You know,
34:45
Speaker 8: does he abuse drugs? I don't know.
34:47
Speaker 1: Does he use alcohol? We don't know that.
34:50
Speaker 2: We'll just child my goodness, we have no evidence of
34:55
Speaker 2: drug in and just fy before you bard that out again.
34:59
Speaker 2: Volunt use of drugs or alcohol are not a defense
35:04
Speaker 2: under the moll. I don't care if he does have
35:06
Speaker 2: a drug problem. I don't care if he drinks himself
35:09
Speaker 2: silly breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That is not an excuse.
35:12
Speaker 2: How about this Kalishewsky consumed with jealousy starting from day
35:18
Speaker 2: one when that child, the baby brother, the murder victim,
35:24
Speaker 2: is brought home from the hospital.
35:26
Speaker 1: And Mommy's loving on it and daddy's loving on it.
35:29
Speaker 2: And then he gets outshined at the soccer field, he
35:32
Speaker 2: gets outshined in school. The brother gets this great job.
35:37
Speaker 2: He doesn't. In fact, can I see the picture the
35:41
Speaker 2: alleged killer posted the day before the murder, while the
35:46
Speaker 2: brother's out working, the murder victim the purpose at home
35:51
Speaker 2: taking selfies of him with a cat toy.
35:54
Speaker 1: There you go, this is him.
35:57
Speaker 2: While the brother is out making a living, he's at
36:01
Speaker 2: home taking selfies with a cat toy Kelishevski.
36:05
Speaker 10: Well, the bottom line is, and I think the medical
36:08
Speaker 10: examiner was getting into this, it's not usual for her
36:12
Speaker 10: to do an autopsy and a murder victim where the
36:15
Speaker 10: eye's been gouged out, likely post mortem, So you can
36:20
Speaker 10: go with the theory of this is a jealous brother rage.
36:24
Speaker 10: But there's a lot of weird stuff going on beyond
36:27
Speaker 10: just a murder that happened, and I think those are
36:30
Speaker 10: the things that people are noticing more than the straightforward
36:34
Speaker 10: murder case. And I think that's why these questions of
36:37
Speaker 10: mental health comes up, because of these sort of unusual,
36:40
Speaker 10: weird things are outside of just a normal I'm jealous
36:42
Speaker 10: of my brother and I hate him and I'm.
36:44
Speaker 5: Going to kill him.
36:45
Speaker 1: I think he's dead. He's been shot.
36:49
Speaker 7: He's been shot. Yes, hello, ma'am, you said your husband
36:53
Speaker 7: was shot here?
36:54
Speaker 5: How long ago?
36:55
Speaker 1: Probably ten fifteen minutes ago, ten minutes ago, maybe ten
36:58
Speaker 1: minutes ago. He was shot. Maybe he's by whom my son,
37:02
Speaker 1: who's nuts, But I didn't know he was just nuts.
37:06
Speaker 2: Another spoiled rich brat preppie killer. That one is Thomas
37:12
Speaker 2: Gilbert Junior, who guns down, his father sends his mom
37:15
Speaker 2: out for a sandwich, and mommy trots off to the deli,
37:19
Speaker 2: and while she's gone, he guns down dad because dad
37:23
Speaker 2: finally was going to cut off his allowance Thomas Gilbert Jr.
37:28
Speaker 2: And now we've got another spoiled rich Bratt who murders
37:32
Speaker 2: his brother. Now a lot has been made even of
37:36
Speaker 2: our renowned medical examiner, doctor Jane Gorniac, who ventures to
37:40
Speaker 2: guess maybe he is mentally ill, maybe he has a
37:45
Speaker 2: drug or alcohol problem, or maybe he's consumed with jealousy
37:48
Speaker 2: and finally kills his roommate, his.
37:50
Speaker 1: Own little brother.
37:52
Speaker 2: Karen Wall, what can you tell me about the alleged
37:57
Speaker 2: killer's poetry? But for hold on, I've taken the liberty
38:02
Speaker 2: of recording some of it.
38:04
Speaker 1: Listen.
38:04
Speaker 9: Is that your voice or is that my voice? Was
38:07
Speaker 9: that the work of my hands? Or was that the
38:10
Speaker 9: work of your hands? Do you like to watch me suffer?
38:14
Speaker 9: Do you like to crush me with pain? It disturbingly continues. Now,
38:20
Speaker 9: what is it that you want me to do this time?
38:24
Speaker 9: Do you want me to burn everything down? Must I
38:27
Speaker 9: sacrifice everything to your altar? Is there not enough ashes already?
38:33
Speaker 1: Okay?
38:34
Speaker 2: I just exoriated doctor Gorniac for giving a psychiatric opinion.
38:41
Speaker 2: But from my vantage point, he the alleged killer that
38:46
Speaker 2: murdered his little brother, is complaining about the little brother.
38:50
Speaker 2: Do you like to crush me with pain? Do you
38:52
Speaker 2: like to watch me suffer? What do you want me
38:55
Speaker 2: to do?
38:55
Speaker 1: This time? Burn everything down?
38:57
Speaker 2: Must I sacrifice everything to your altar?
39:01
Speaker 1: Yeah? That's how I read it. Karen Wall.
39:03
Speaker 2: How much bizarre poetry has the alleged killer written?
39:11
Speaker 1: There's reams of it online. There's at least two that
39:14
Speaker 1: we were able to find that I was able to
39:16
Speaker 1: find in searching. But as.
39:21
Speaker 4: The police detective said before, it was hours of searching
39:27
Speaker 4: to find anything to even give any hint of what
39:32
Speaker 4: Matt is about and who he is and what is
39:35
Speaker 4: going on.
39:36
Speaker 1: The poetry is very disturbing.
39:38
Speaker 2: Look at these excerpts that he has posted on Facebook. Quote,
39:43
Speaker 2: he still has a pulse, blood still flows through his veins,
39:46
Speaker 2: but something's wrapped around him, squeezing him, choking him, suffocating him.
39:51
Speaker 2: Blood oozes out of his eyes, He convulses, he doesn't stop.
39:56
Speaker 2: He's lost, he's asleep, he's dead. His body's surrounded by fire.
40:00
Speaker 2: He set the cat on fire. The fires are blazing
40:03
Speaker 2: inside of him. Now, what is it that you want
40:06
Speaker 2: me to do this time? Do you want me to
40:09
Speaker 2: burn everything down? Straight out to former homicide detective Houston PD,
40:16
Speaker 2: president of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, Feel Waters. Now,
40:22
Speaker 2: a lot of people may do contortions about his mental
40:26
Speaker 2: health as an excuse for what he did. But he
40:30
Speaker 2: called nine to one one, he ushered police into the body.
40:34
Speaker 2: What I would describe this as is wishful thinking. Blood
40:39
Speaker 2: coming out of your eyes, fire around you. He's describing
40:44
Speaker 2: the murder scene before he did it.
40:47
Speaker 5: I would agree to a degree of that. I want
40:50
Speaker 5: to come to the defense a little bit to the
40:52
Speaker 5: good doctor there the discussion about mental health in this thing.
40:56
Speaker 5: As a homicide detective, where we're going to kind of
40:59
Speaker 5: determine is what happened and what was theor how was
41:03
Speaker 5: how did that occur? What was the timeline on this thing?
41:07
Speaker 5: You know, we keep talking about the I being gouged out,
41:11
Speaker 5: and other than it being said that, I don't know that.
41:16
Speaker 5: What so I want to see is the autopsy. Did
41:19
Speaker 5: the eye come out because he was beating him with
41:23
Speaker 5: a golf club and then once he saw that, then
41:26
Speaker 5: he went ahead and finished the job. So there's a
41:29
Speaker 5: lot of stuff going on here. One thing leads to
41:32
Speaker 5: the other. And when I would attend the autopsy, which
41:36
Speaker 5: I did in every homicide case I haven't did with
41:39
Speaker 5: a doctor, and we would discuss what I found at
41:42
Speaker 5: the scene. So it's all part of the same formula.
41:46
Speaker 5: So the discussion about mental health is going to be
41:48
Speaker 5: part of the investigative discussion.
41:51
Speaker 2: Let me just be clear where I'm coming from here.
41:55
Speaker 2: A mental defect will not negate intent to kill. I
42:05
Speaker 2: am standing for the crime victim.
42:08
Speaker 1: You may think me.
42:08
Speaker 2: Harsh, but what matters is justice for this crime victim.
42:17
Speaker 2: The constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to
42:21
Speaker 2: protect the crime victim. Also, we are learning the Princeton
42:26
Speaker 2: Preppy murder suspects parents were no shows when their son
42:31
Speaker 2: appeared in court.
42:34
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds.
42:37
Speaker 2: And to find out what the grand jury has to say.
42:43
Speaker 2: Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,