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Heather Gudenkauf: The Perfect Hosts · Storied Account with Jen Jumba

• Jennifer Jumba: This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. In conversations with writers, something magical happens. as readers, we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. And my hope is through these conversations, you begin to learn about their craft and them as a person, and you'll become like me, fiercely loyal and want to read their current book, entire backlist, or any future book they write. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them. not only as incredible storytellers, but also the thoughtful individuals you have come to know. So my guest today is Heather Goodenkopf. She is the Edgar Award nominated New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of 10 novels, including The Overnight Guest, her most recent thriller, Everyone is Watching, her debut novel, The Weight of Silence, was an instant New York Times bestseller. and remained on that list for 22 weeks. Goodenkopf's critically acclaimed novels have been published in over 25 countries, have sold over 2.5 million copies worldwide, and her books have been featured deservedly so on many best of roundups, including lists by the New York Times, Washington Post, NPR, Amazon, Apple Books, Goodreads, and more. Her 11th novel, The Perfect Hosts, was just released last fall. Heather lives in Iowa with her family and what she refers to as a very spoiled German short-haired pointer named Lolo. In her free time, Heather enjoys spending time with her family, reading, swimming, and hiking, and is currently working on her next novel. So thank you so much for joining me today. Heather Gudenkauf: Thank you so much for having me, Jen. Jennifer Jumba: So this book, The Perfect Hosts. Can you just give us like a brief introduction to it? It's a topic that we see a lot more of lately. And so ⁓ think of course, you're Heather Goodenkopf. So of course it takes a slightly dark turn, but can you give us a little bit of an introduction to the couple? Heather Gudenkauf: Sure, so Madeleine and Wes Drake are a wealthy, land-owning, horse ranch-owning family out in Wyoming, and they're expecting their first child. And so they decide to throw this huge, over-the-top gender reveal party with 200 of their closest friends, and in very lavish style, they have champagne, they have it catered, they have... Reba McIntyre coming in to They a big, you know, boom of a surprise for everyone as of the reveal. And as the guests around ⁓ and the big reveal is to happen, something terribly wrong happens and their are changed forever. And just sets off this ⁓ chain reaction, a mystery that needs to be solved and ATF agent Jamie Saldano who comes to investigate what exactly had happened on the ranch and he has some secrets of his own including a past with the town of Nightjar where the story takes place ⁓ and the of his sister. from years earlier. And so these stories kind of intertwine and a story of small town secrets and family loyalties and sisters ⁓ it's really kind of a wild, wild ride, but has quite a bit of emotion in it as well, I think. Jennifer Jumba: Without a doubt. know, the opening scene, know, Madeline standing in this ginormous house and looks ⁓ out she just sees nothing but, land and the Tetons, in the distance. It's almost as if I think she refers to as having her own personal slice of that mountain range. And so, of course, if you're a house like that, the celebration is going to be absolutely mentioned Reba coming in, I was struck by the food being served. These grown-up s'mores cinnamon graham crackers, milk chocolate ganache, candied pecans, and coconut topped with an almond-scented toasted meringue. Is that something you created? See, make on a regular basis. Heather Gudenkauf: Yes. No, I'm not known, I would say, for my cooking, but it was sure fun researching some over-the-top party foods, and I had a lot of fun creating this very lavish barbecue for 200 people. Jennifer Jumba: And it even has a theme. think the theme is pearls and pistols. And so you have, women, ladies kind of dressed up, with that, with the strand of pearls. And then you have, because it's out in Wyoming, you have everybody, all the gentlemen walking around with pistols and guns and yeah, what could possibly go wrong? Heather Gudenkauf: packing heat. And the whole thing is, you know, completely absurd, right? And that was kind of the point of it. Because we know, you know, I think, you know, people want to get together, find reasons to celebrate. you know, celebrating new life is always exciting. ⁓ but, you know, doing my my research, and I kind of put that in air quotes, because I watched a lot of Jennifer Jumba: Right. Heather Gudenkauf: gender reveals online and how wild and over the top they became and you know they turned into almost like weddings that you know the extractments and money put into it and just almost absurd ⁓ and you what everybody really wants is for us you know their child to be born healthy and Jennifer Jumba: All right. Right. Heather Gudenkauf: I thought it'd be really interesting to take, you know, something that's supposed to be one of the happiest moments in a couple's life and it on its head and just see where it took me. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, and I think the Drake family is well known generation wise in that part of Wyoming and pretty much kind of control things that are happening. And the town is called Nightjar. And so you mentioned Jamie Saldano coming back as the ATF agent to investigate this. And was curious about what Nightjar was. And apparently he was as a kid when his mom said they were moving there. Heather Gudenkauf: Yes. Jennifer Jumba: And what he envisioned was like a mason jar, but instead of capturing the fireflies, like we all did as kids, you were capturing the night, but the night jar is actually something else. Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah, it's a bird. it, you know, this is is kind of a funny, interesting story about where I got the name of the town. all writers do, we kind of mine our own lives for inspiration, whatever it may be. And would my son lives over in London, and I visiting him and he took us to a pub. And the name of the pub was Nightjar. And I was just so fascinated by that name. I, you know, that those kinds of things that I described in the book about, you know, catching fireflies and the night. then, you know, of course I learned it was a bird and I tucked it away thinking, you know, I'm going to use this in a book someday. And I did. And so ⁓ that's that came from. But yeah, Jamie has this really complicated history with Jennifer Jumba: Great. Heather Gudenkauf: this town that he lived for just a short amount of time. His family was pretty transient. He with his mom and his older sister and he was around 11 or 12 at the time he moved there and felt very much the outsider in this town where there's a lot of generational wealth and landowners and he was kind of a city kid. And one evening, night, he and his sister are along the gravel dirt roads they get a little spat a little fight and she kicks him out of the car and that's last time you ever saw her and how has haunted him through the years. in writing this book, know, it's the Drakes were kind of the main of course, with Madeline and Wes and their relationship and ⁓ their upcoming the birth of child. But really stole my heart. as a character that came to me. really had a fun time exploring his and what he was like and his history. So much so that a lot of it ended up on the cutting room floor because it's a thriller. I write thrillers and the pace needs to move along. But I was so enchanted by his relationship with his sister that I kept wanting write more about it. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Heather Gudenkauf: I hope it can. Jennifer Jumba: So does that mean that he's gonna be in another book? Heather Gudenkauf: ⁓ I would love that. I don't know if that's in the cards, but you know, I always, I always say to my editor, know, this maybe this one could be this book could be a series, maybe this one might, might be the one and I definitely left some doors open for that. ⁓ In case it is ever a possibility. I don't know if that is, you know, would be in the cards, but it's fun think about. Jennifer Jumba: He most certainly did. So you mentioned that you enjoyed this character as I, because one of the things that you do really well is you paint such complex characters. I that's essentially what we are as human beings. We're not all good, we're not all bad, and why we certain things or don't do certain things. And so you're able to capture that. So you have somebody who's an ATF agent who's supposed to be... perceived or maybe stereotyped as this tough guy, but we all have a history to us. We all have life experience that comes before where we are today. And contrasting that, I think you did a wonderful job. There's something very tender about him. And at the same time, there's also this big important job that he has to do, hold people accountable and look facts and try to figure out and piece together what happened. Heather Gudenkauf: Yes. Yeah. Right. I love the way you put that. Yeah, we do all come with a history and a past to wherever we're, whatever point we are in our lives. And really wanted that to shine through with Jamie ⁓ you the ATF part, it was so, so interesting, so informative. I had the opportunity to connect with an ATF agent who spent lot of time visiting with me about the ins and outs of the job and what it means and the work that they do and the logistical parts of it. And I learned so much and things that we don't even ⁓ about, obviously, because that's not part of our worlds typically. But was very grateful have that expertise and those bits ⁓ of factoids that I could insert the story to hopefully give it a realistic flair. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely, you did. And so how does that work? I'm what your Google search must look like. ⁓ Or you use Tor or something else. how is that you're able to do the research? mean, obviously, you're a bestselling writer, so people know who you are when you call or reach out to them, I imagine. Heather Gudenkauf: Not pretty. I do obviously look for experts in their field and I typically start close to home and try to find a connection that way. And I have a nephew in law enforcement a town in our state. And I started with him and like, ⁓ do you happen know of any ATF agents or anything? And then that opened up some doors and talking to another person talked to another person and got me to the right for this. Jennifer Jumba: So it's six degrees of Heather, not six degrees of Kevin Bacon anymore. Heather Gudenkauf: Well, ⁓ but I do that with, you most of my, my research, whether it's, you for medical reasons or legal things, you know, I search for people but sometimes that takes me kind of far flung, which is great because, you know, there are a million billion other people out there. mean, Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ huh. Heather Gudenkauf: four billion other people out there the world. However, our population is now, but that are much smarter than I am. So, you know, I'm stuck in this little room writing. We have to reach out find experts to help. Jennifer Jumba: Not true. Yeah. And if somebody were looking for a subject matter expert in how to write bestselling thrillers, know, they would see you. mean, we can't all be experts at everything. So. ⁓ Heather Gudenkauf: That's too kind. Jennifer Jumba: the thing you do a lot of research, but as a reader, you don't bog down with really complex details. It's enough for us to understand, but not overwhelm and kind of get, want to say distracted or slow that pace down, which is so important to you as a thriller writer. So how do you decide what goes in and what goes out? Do you have like a beta reader that's like, Whoa, I don't need to know about the Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah, yes I do. have, you know, you actually, my sisters are early readers. I have a really good friend from elementary school who ⁓ early drafts. ⁓ I ⁓ a who actually a friend from Facebook. We've never met, but she's, you know, an avid reader, reads ton and really smart and she's gone through my manuscripts to help me out some. And then Jennifer Jumba: No. Heather Gudenkauf: my agent, of course, and my editor. We have a very collaborative relationship. So when my editor gets it, she always, you know, they have that eagle, that bird's eye view of a project. ⁓ you I've spent so many months ⁓ working digging in that sometimes I can't see, you know, what's close to it. And having, you know, an editor that I'm so collaborative with is incredibly helpful. Jennifer Jumba: Hmm? You're too close. Right. Heather Gudenkauf: getting other sets eyes on the book, the is huge. Jennifer Jumba: Approximately, I'm just kind of curious. How long does it take you when you're writing a book? Like I'm sure you have like what everybody refers to as the ugly first draft and then you hone, hone, hone. And then I would imagine that manuscript after a couple of beta readers and some feedback then goes to editor. Heather Gudenkauf: Yep. Correct, yes, and it varies with each project because like with all our children, they're all very different and have different needs. And so it takes me a little, I do, like all authors, I think a lot. And so there's a lot of that goes into it and planning and not even sitting behind the computer for that. It might be in a notebook or just walking thinking. And then, Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Yeah. Heather Gudenkauf: then this is something I've come to later in my career with more of an, being more of an outliner. In beginning, I was more of riding the seat of my pants, a pantser. And that really worked for me for a long time, but it's not as efficient as, you know, maybe we'd hoped it would be for myself for life. And as you know, with life, things come up and I find myself with projects and having to step away for maybe weeks or even a month or two at a time because of, you know, family health and such. And coming back into the project, not where to dip my foot back in because I didn't have that map ⁓ there me. And so recent books, I... Jennifer Jumba: Right. Okay. Heather Gudenkauf: you know, I've started outlining and it does help me it helps me kind of ground myself when I step away from a project and come back in. It's a path but it's not not written in stone. Because ⁓ think of the most magical moments in writing are the ones that take you by surprise. And those my So I kind of yeah, combination. So there's and pantsers and I think a plants are Jennifer Jumba: I think as a reader, would say the same. Heather Gudenkauf: I'm somewhere in the middle. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Well, I think it's ⁓ really kind of cool if you kind of have an outline. I know you said not written in stone, so it can change at any point in time. But it's always surprising to us as readers, kind of turning the pages and, ⁓ my goodness, I didn't see that coming or, ⁓ wow, that that's. And so even you kind of have an idea where you're going to still be able to convey that sense of edginess on a page and keep us turning, I think is such a great skill to have. Heather Gudenkauf: I mean, I as a reader love that as well. so, you know, as a reader, I'm, you know, in awe of authors that are able to do that and do that well. I'm, you know, every book read, say, you know, I'm learning, I'm learning from the masters and from people who've done this before me. And that pace is so important and knowing where to lay the crumbs for the reader, because as readers, we want to be able to figure it out. ⁓ as a reader love that as well. so, you know, as a reader, I'm, you know, always in awe authors that are able to do that and do that well. I'm, you know, every book I read, say, know, I'm learning, I'm learning from the masters and from people who've done this before me. And that pace is so important and knowing where to lay the crumbs for the reader, because as readers, we want to be able to figure it out. ⁓ It's also when an author can, you know. It's also when an author can, you know. throw you for a loop a little bit too. I'm like, aha, I didn't see that coming. But it's very satisfying to be able to look back as a reader and look at the clues and say, okay, I see where that was leading me now. throw you for a loop a little bit too. I'm like, aha, I didn't see that coming. But it's very satisfying to be able to look back as a reader and look at the clues and say, okay, I see where that was leading me now. Jennifer Jumba: Right, but you can't leave too many or we as readers figured out too soon and you can't leave too few so that we get to the end and we're like, what? That was kind of a, I to say cheap gratuitous thrill, but yeah, so it's, is a balance and you seem to have found that right balance for your books because there's always something that when I look back and I'm like, of course hindsight's 2020, but you look back and you're like, oh, I should have gotten that. But I'm glad I didn't because Heather Gudenkauf: Yes. Great. Jennifer Jumba: It was super exciting to read page after page and like, okay, cereal for dinner, you know, laundry's done. I'm not worrying about anything else. yeah, absolutely. so I'm, I'm still struck by these, you know, gender reveal parties, and, and things go tragically wrong in this, there's, ⁓ an explosion. I'm not anything away cause that happens very early on, but it's the source of it. and, Heather Gudenkauf: Thanks. Jennifer Jumba: who it was intended for and who did it and why. so in come characters to the story, you have Madeline's sister, stepsister, who shows up after the gender reveal party's over, kind of as like a surprise. They don't get along, because the stepfather passed away and instead of leaving his estate to her, he leaves it to Madeline to control because yes, the stepfather sister's a bit of a wild card, Never ⁓ the one. So there's a lot of tension between the two of them. And then have this waitress who, ⁓ is of lost soul, that all of a she doesn't have a job because the catering company is impacted by this. And I'm always kind of struck by the fact people who live kind of relatively isolated, they live on this gigantic part of land. Heather Gudenkauf: Right. break. Jennifer Jumba: And I think, you somebody comes to your door and needs help. you, I want to say lonely, but craving enough company because her husband, Madeline's husband, Wes travels a lot. So you set yourself up because you need some and friendship and not to feel so alone in this gigantic house while you're incredibly pregnant. Heather Gudenkauf: Right. Yeah. Right. And that's, I think we find that with Madeline when we first meet her, we see this, this absolute, you know, it's this wealth and it seems so over, you know, I say this a million times, but over the top and so extravagant. ⁓ we're you know, at first we're not sure if we like Madeline. We're like, ⁓ lady, has all this and, you know, ⁓ poor little rich girl kind of thing. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Heather Gudenkauf: But we get to know very quickly that she's out of her element here. This isn't what she for. It's not what she craves, ⁓ land and the ⁓ so much as being and of course having a healthy child and her friendships. she is and she feels very isolated where they're at because... the mountain, you know, surrounded by mountains and she's on this property by herself. Really her horses are her friends. And then enters, you know, her sister who she does have a very complicated relationship with, very much a love hate. they, we learned that they had a falling out, not the not too recent past. And she's surprised to find her sister. Jennifer Jumba: Hmm. Heather Gudenkauf: on her doorstep because she wasn't invited. wasn't invited. ⁓ guess ⁓ and then Mellie, you know, the caterer who's injured in the explosion along with with Madeline and they share an ambulance ride together and they really bond. They really bond there. ⁓ so ⁓ this young woman shows up on her doorstep, you know, Jennifer Jumba: Purposely not invited. can you crash a gender reveal party, I guess? Heather Gudenkauf: searching, for help, Madeline just feels very beholden in a way or connected that she needs to bring her into her home. And that could be the, could be the meaning her life. No, that's what we try to find out as we read. Jennifer Jumba: Right. I'm struck by Lucy, her stepsister, right? And Madeline kind of observes her and how she with people. Like they don't really seem to get along at all. And yet Madeline talks about Lucy as, know, somehow always finds a way to slither in, into people, into their good And today she's, putting on a good show. And I just think, gosh, we all do that from time to time, right? We perform or ⁓ Heather Gudenkauf: Right, right. Jennifer Jumba: You know, we kind of mask, but it is maddening, for her to see her sister like, she's not a great person. And yet everybody seems to like her and find her incredibly funny and charming and. Heather Gudenkauf: Exactly. you know, I think, and I'm so fortunate, I have five older brothers and sisters who I adore. And so my relationships, you know, are nothing like, you know, sibling relationships are not like in the book. But I think we do, we get to know, you our siblings in it, you know, their strengths, their weaknesses, ins and outs ⁓ and what maybe other people don't see and this is really just an elevated example of that and doesn't help that you know, Wes is kind of ⁓ opening ⁓ arms Lucy and then that becomes a whole other issue like how Manipulative is this situation who's manipulating? What's happening? Who do trust ⁓ and? And that's a for in the book Jennifer Jumba: Great. Right. And for us as readers trying to figure that out as we're kind of like observing, from outside the dynamics that are happening. And we all and I think you make a reference to it in the book, that a lot of these dynamics are amplified when there's grief or money involved. So that sets a whole other set of things, because we just act differently with to different situations and everybody handles the very same experience differently. Heather Gudenkauf: Right, Jennifer Jumba: And there's also a great theme in the book about female friendship and how strong it is and how it's different than the relationship you have, with your husband or your partner. And that that thread woven through that there's really nothing quite like it. And I think that's part of what we realized with Madeline is that she doesn't really have that strong friendship, that strong presence. so maybe she's looking when the waitress, shows up and knowing that they bonded when you go through tough stuff, whoever's right there with you that kind of connects you that pivotal life experience. ⁓ Heather Gudenkauf: Right. Right, and Madeline we get to know her, we know she, we come to find that she's very generous and, and a you real And she wants to help. She wants to have an impact on other people and, and she wants people to like her. And, ⁓ and so she, opens heart in her home ⁓ and you there are effects of that. are consequences. And so ⁓ finds herself, you in this isolated ⁓ ranch with two that doesn't know if she can trust. One of them's her sister, step-sister, and one of them is this young woman who has come to her injured and asking for help. and there's nobody there to help her, you know, in this situation. So she's kind of got to figure, you know, figure things out. And the reader has to along for that ride ⁓ Madeline that journey. Jennifer Jumba: And I think the great thing about this book is you have that whole storyline going, the dynamics between three women that are living in the house while Wes is kind of in and out on business. And at the time, have Jamie, one of my favorite characters that you've written so far, ⁓ Soldano, know, reconciling not only happened, source the explosion ⁓ who was responsible. And it's so hard talking like in code because we don't want to give anything away. But he's trying to reconcile the past with what happened when his sister disappeared. And I have to say, like Juno. You her appear with ⁓ this great this back and forth between Jamie and his and some of these great ⁓ one-liners and snarky and typical siblings. We all of are able to find humor in things or call somebody, you know, sarcastic or dramatic. And it really works, I think, in this book, kind of helps to lighten that, that loss that he feels, because he still kind of carries with him. Heather Gudenkauf: Right. Right. I, you know, as I was writing this book, had, within a couple years, I lost both my mom and dad, and you who we were, my whole family very close to, and it was very hard, very difficult situation. But and I found myself, and I've never, I mean, I've had loss, of course, before, but nothing as profound as that, as losing my folks. And I, I found myself talking to them, you know, like, Oh, mom, like, here we go, or gosh, I could really use your advice right about now, dad. And I found a lot of comfort in that. And I, you know, as I was writing Jamie and his story, I imagine that he would probably be doing the same with his sister. And being the age that they were when this all happened, I imagine Juno being, you know, a typical big sister, like, you know, come on, you idiot, like figure this out. And, and Yeah, I liked how you said that he carried her with him ⁓ ⁓ coming back to the scene of the crime really made all the more profound ⁓ and really that that has gone on too I need to figure out what happened to my sister because law enforcement has this ⁓ case is stalled and maybe. I, Jamie, could configure this out. Jennifer Jumba: I the structure of the story. You tell from multiple character perspectives, which is always great because it's just like life that everybody's kind of experiencing the same situation but differently based on who we are, what's happening at the time. But Mellie, you chose to narrate from a first-person perspective. Can you talk a little bit about that choice? Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah, you know, Mellie, who's, you know, like a 21 year old waitress, caterer, you know, and ⁓ like didn't have the most parts or sections in the book, but her voice to me as I wrote, I'd started out everybody in in third, third person, like the whole book, I'd written that in third person. And found that Mellie's voice was, you know, Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Right. Heather Gudenkauf: was unique and I felt like, okay, I can make this even stronger by having her tell her story in her own voice. She had kind of, know, a sassy, very, not entitled, but like, I've been through so much, I deserve this kind of attitude. And so I thought it would be a good way to really let readers kind of get into the head of Mellie, but she's also. pretty cagey. She doesn't want people to get too close either. even in her first person point of view, she's got a bit of a wall. But get a sense of what she wants and that she'll do anything to get that as well. And I ⁓ also you know, I often write in multiple perspectives, you know, I think all but one of my books is written with multiple characters. And ⁓ this there were Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, she has a bit of a chip on her shoulder sure. Mm-hmm. Heather Gudenkauf: three female lead actors and then Jamie. And you run the risk if you write in ⁓ person for everybody that they to sound alike. And so putting in that different perspective, turning to first person or third person or whatever it might be is important. yeah, so most of the book written in third person until I thought Mellie, Mellie needs her own. her own story to tell here. So was fun to do. Jennifer Jumba: it was certainly fun to read ⁓ her perspective to gain a little bit more understanding of who is and where she comes from, for sure. Heather Gudenkauf: And she came, you know, it's very tough and necessarily likable. ⁓ I think in her and kind of hearing there, I had a lot of ⁓ sympathy for as well because she put herself some bad positions, but there were people there around her who took advantage of her as well. And she was, you know, to her way the best way she could and not making the best choices in doing so. Jennifer Jumba: and she's incredibly young. mean, so young, so that explains some it. You like you about characters who are in, my age bracket who are still making bad decisions. ⁓ Exactly. The other thing liked about Jamie, and you talk about this in book, is his skill at being able to get people to talk to him. Heather Gudenkauf: Yes. Right, only mistakes, right? Jennifer Jumba: You know, how he makes people at ease, how he makes people feel comfortable, which is an incredibly good skill. If you're somebody who's investigating and your job is to ask questions, to gain answers or insight. But it's different if you're approaching a very sensitive, situation, that has, you know, tragic, component to it, to, be able to be somebody can hold that space while asking the tough questions. Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah. Right, and I think with Jamie, with his background, with his kind of unstable childhood and the loss of his sister, I kind of thought of him as a watcher, as somebody, a character who would stand back and kind of watch the world go by as a child and take everything in, but not necessarily... jump in and participate. And so he gathers a lot of information by watching people. But of course, if you're an investigator, you have to ask the questions. he does have a way ⁓ disarming people and making feel comfortable. you know, he does have, you know, as in law enforcement, you do need to have that kind of presence, but he does it in a way that people want to help him for the most part, and that they, you know, that he's there for the greater good and trying to solve this crime. And people like him. He is a likable guy. But, you know, along the way, as with most investigations, he ends up, you know, hitting a few brick walls. And, and even find a point in the book where he loses his cool. ⁓ and like, when Jamie's mad, we know it's it's pretty bad here. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. you know, certainly understandable. At the same time, I'm thinking about, you know, how people are with one another and who do you trust and how do you trust them? ⁓ And I'm also thinking about His sister disappeared in a time period where we didn't have internet like we know it today. We didn't have social media. We didn't have that digital footprint of wherever our phone goes, there we are kind of thing. And you have it contrasted with what during the reveal party. And I just, found that really kind of interesting to juxtapose the two. ⁓ Heather Gudenkauf: Right, when Juno disappeared, there was no footprint. You're right, there was nothing. ⁓ with gender reveal and the explosion, there were hundreds ⁓ of phones and there footage. And so that adds another layer of the investigation of through people's... cell phones and to see if they caught anything or if the photographer caught anything. And, of course, you know, because it's an explosion and there are incendiary devices were used trying to track the components of that, that bomb where somebody could have gotten it. And so it is, it's a, just a whole different world of investigation or, ⁓ you know, maybe some the same ⁓ know, basic steps of it, but the way we go about getting that information, think in law enforcement has changed so and over the years. yeah, so we, you we went from this one case where there was no information, no clues to where there's too much to sift through. Jennifer Jumba: Right. We were talking a little bit earlier because we are both proud owners of card catalogs. And that was how I researched when I was younger. I mean, you were limited to, author, title, subject. And so you didn't have as many, as you said, like sources or pieces of information. So you were able to make an informed decision you were reading, you ⁓ the introduction and conclusion, the abstract and in the end. And now that if I use ⁓ Heather Gudenkauf: Yes. Jennifer Jumba: database, put in thing and I come up with like, you know, 10,000 results, and I'm having to figure like, which is the best one. And so in library science, dorky, but we talk about ⁓ do satisficing where it's enough satisfy the requirement of what you're looking for, without sacrificing tons of time, because if you had to read the abstract and the conclusion for everything, even if you filter, you know, your parameters, overwhelming and trying to make sense of it all is just as big a job. ⁓ Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah, exactly. yeah, so getting those first person interviews, know, hugely important. But yeah, the books I checked out, the I got, the internet searches and you know, how do you condense it down into something meaningful and helpful for a thriller? It's, you know, it's, you hope you get it right. You hope get it. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I would say you've got an track record. So for sure you get it right. Absolutely. I just I think it's just fun to think about your research process and to think about how you go about writing the different perspectives and making sure each voice comes across differently and unique. ⁓ Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah, to build these worlds for each of your characters and backstories that, you know, I keep a notebook where each character has a tab in the notebook and I write down everything I can possibly build for their history and some of it gets in the book and some of it doesn't. I feel like that's the way I get to know the characters and I feel like I get, and I know many authors say this, but I get to know my characters as I write. And so they are might be just like we do in our relationships and getting to know people, takes time. And so more I write, the more I'm into the book, I get to know them better and they reveal them, the characters reveal themselves to me. And then as I add to the notebook, then I go back and might layer in more of the details that I learned about them along the way. They become. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I mean, think, yeah. Heather Gudenkauf: real people strangely as as write. Jennifer Jumba: No, but I think it helps you. helps inform your the story and the because you how that ⁓ you know character so well, you know how they would act in that particular situation. And that takes that takes time. I imagine, when you go for your walks, you may have one or two characters tagging along with you or ⁓ you're folding laundry and this one's saying, I want to do that. That's not really, you know. Heather Gudenkauf: Absolutely. Yeah, they're always always tagging along. Jennifer Jumba: Now, since you've written, I'm just curious, since you've 11 books, all that, it's big group walking with you. Do some characters stay with you longer than others or how does that work? Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah, with book, ⁓ are characters that stick with you. They're definitely about, but in at ⁓ my of work, there are definitely some that I wonder where they would be today. For example, from The Way to Silence, my very first book, that character, I often think her, about where she would be now. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Heather Gudenkauf: ⁓ I think of Amelia from Not A Sound and yeah they do they stick with you and you're like you know I wonder if I should ever revisit them and revisit their story and try to continue it most often it's it's like no you know I think I their story's been told but I like to think about you know I think of them fondly like old friends. Jennifer Jumba: I would have to agree. mean, as a reader, there are certainly characters that stick with you, that you just want kind of tagging along with you for things or ones that you would want to talk to yourself. Like Jamie, what do I do here? Or Madeline, like, hey, do you have some clothes I can borrow? heading to, right? She does have a great closet. I was a little envious of that, for sure. Yeah, and then I was struck by her Heather Gudenkauf: She has a great closet. No. Jennifer Jumba: her choice and Wes's choice in terms of how they chose to decorate their nursery. Like completely white. And I'm thinking that's a kid. Like there's messes inherent with kids. And I know when they're little, they're not, you know, really moving just yet on their own, but Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's part of revealing the characters. And we learned that that really wasn't Madeline's design. was like her husband had aesthetic in mind. And, you Madeline just would have been happy with the rocking chair and the bedroom and a crib. yeah, so she isn't so caught up in, you know, what the neighbors think, but her husband absolutely is. Madeline wants to make husband happy too. And so she kind of along for the ride. So ⁓ even all those little choices, we learn what makes character tick and what's important to them. Jennifer Jumba: it's a dangerous game that, know, the whole, you keeping up with the Joneses, but, know, making sure that your presence, your life of luxury is apparent to everybody that that becomes the defining thing. And clearly we Madeline is not comfortable with that. Heather Gudenkauf: And how exhausting that has to be for people and anybody, whatever your social, just trying to on that show, it's gotta be tough. Jennifer Jumba: I even think in the very opening scene, she's she's kind of like because her dress isn't, white fitting properly because she's pregnant and then she can't put her shoes on, and her friends just like, here, wear some flip flops. Like, that's who she is. She would just show up and like, flip flops and a relatively simple thing. But it's this whole appearance that she has to do because she loves her husband. And it's important to him. So once to support him. Heather Gudenkauf: Right, right. And I think that's, know, yeah, so tally. We just never really know what's going on behind closed doors. Jennifer Jumba: So. Yep. think there's a line in here that people are exceptionally good at hiding their dirty little secrets and when desperate will do just about anything. I think. Heather Gudenkauf: Yes, there are lots of characters in this book who are desperate to do that. Yes, I do. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, thing you do a great job ⁓ is setting the scene for what Wyoming feels like. I mean, you even talk about how the night silence and night sounds are different. And so you can almost just hear it as you're reading the book, which is really kind of neat to experience and feel that expanse of space. You know, this isn't set like in an urban setting where there's Heather Gudenkauf: Thank you. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: No cars hustling and bustling down, you know, highways and people stopped in traffic and trying to trying to get here. There's just something very soothing about having all of that wide open space and those gorgeous views of mountains Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah, yeah. you know, readers who've read my books know that typically my books are set in Iowa where where live. And I love writing about Iowa. I do. I love love it. But for you know, a few of my books, I needed to take my character out of their safe space into you know, something that's unknown. And that this story is a case of that, you know, having to take Madeline away from what she knew to her husband's world, which was out. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Heather Gudenkauf: out west, which you know, I love to go visit out west. I just think it's so beautiful. And, you know, like you said, the wide open spaces, the and ⁓ the isolation it was perfect for this story. And so, you know, about every year, my husband and I will travel out west, you know, take a car ride. And I try to get call myself a wannabe cowgirl, because I've been on a horse. ⁓ I can count probably on one hand, I get a chance to, I want do that. And ⁓ just it's such a beautiful country ⁓ and was the perfect location for this book. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I agree. absolutely loved, because I've not been that far out west. I've been to other places, but I was just like, yeah, now I want to go. I've read like Craig Johnson and Longmire, and then you have it with this. And I was like, oh, this is just telling me I need to go out west. Heather Gudenkauf: Right, and it's there's no hustle, there's no bustle. It's all just beauty. there's something very peaceful about that. Jennifer Jumba: I just don't know if I could probably I could cause I'm a bit of an introvert but that all the time versus escape to it for portions of the time. Heather Gudenkauf: That would be interesting. think I could. I think I could go many, many days without leaving my house and I would be perfectly okay with that, honestly. But you're right, I don't know. After a long, winter, dark, winter, I don't know. It's a good question, but it is beautiful to visit. Jennifer Jumba: my friends and, family kind of laugh at me because, people talk about going to these silent retreats and they're like, no fair, like you can't go because you would like it too much. ⁓ Heather Gudenkauf: What do mean you can't nobody's talking okay, right? Jennifer Jumba: Okay. So, your previous career, I think it's fun to kind of point out that you were a teacher and you taught little ones. ⁓ Heather Gudenkauf: Yeah, I did. I I taught primarily third and fourth grade and loved it, loved every minute of it. you know, it was just joyful to be in around being around those little kids. And, you know, I spent 26 years in education. So I continue that through really quite recently until about six years ago during the pandemic when I stepped away from my education career. But I lots of different roles in education. I taught lots of grade levels, mostly third and fourth, but I was an instructional coach, which meant I helped with curriculum other items with teachers and principals. And I was Title Reading Coordinator, which was ⁓ a position where I was to help. Jennifer Jumba: awesome. Heather Gudenkauf: coordinate reading programs for at-risk students in lower economic schools. ⁓ it a real privilege. I had opportunity to work with some fantastic teachers who, their sole goal was to give children the joy reading and to ⁓ make that positive. So been so lucky to be able to do two things in my life that I'm incredibly passionate about. education writing so I can't. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. And no, I think it's terrific. And you're right. The joy of reading, I can't imagine not having that. And I'm so grateful for the teachers that invest the time to make sure that kids are able to read. It opens up a whole different world. I there are places you can like, I just traveled to Wyoming, right? And didn't have to leave my house. You know, or you learn something as you're reading. There's so many reasons why reading works for people, Heather Gudenkauf: I started out as a young person, I was excited to go to school, but when I got there, I had a terrible time. And I was so far behind my classmates and couldn't read and math was a disaster. ⁓ was discovered I had a profound hearing loss in the middle of my first grade year. And once that was discovered and I fitted for hearing aids, it's like the whole world opened up. And my life absolutely changed. early intervention from teachers who were great about giving accommodations to me. And then on, when things turned around, I knew I wanted to be a teacher. if I think about what my life would have taken if that wasn't discovered, and if didn't have the teachers who are willing to work with me. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Right. Yeah. And then you turned around and gave it right back. which, Yeah. And I'm sure they loved you and I'm sure like they're, some of them are a little bit more grown up now saying, oh yeah, I had Mrs. Heather Gudenkauf: me on the right path. ⁓ hope so because I sure loved it. ⁓ I know I find out my gosh some of my first of students are like so grown up and like what happened what happened Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, well, they got older. We didn't is kind of look at my nieces and like, how how are you driving? How are you a junior in high school? Yeah, so I yeah, no, I would talk to you, you know, the rest of the day, but you know, time, time just flies. so as we get, you know, ⁓ to wrap this is storied and the final five questions. When you were with your children, did you know Heather Gudenkauf: That's great. Exactly. So it seemed possible. It Jennifer Jumba: what their gender was before they were born. Heather Gudenkauf: So I three children and two of them I did know. And the reason we knew is because we had some minor complications with them. So we had have more ultrasounds. So for my first child, we found out ⁓ my child, everything was smooth sailing. So we like, let's be surprised. So we were, which was great. And then for... Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Okay. Heather Gudenkauf: our third child, we some hiccups along the way. So we found out there too. So both are fun. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ Super fun. yeah, no big crazy gender reveal parties, I'm assuming. No. Heather Gudenkauf: No, that would probably never happen at my house. Jennifer Jumba: next question. Reba is flying in to perform at this gender reveal party, right? ⁓ at your next book launch party, who would you invite to perform? Heather Gudenkauf: Great. ⁓ my gosh, what a question. Okay. who would I, there's so many. my goodness. And I think this is so funny because I'm not a Swiftie, but that's who's coming to my mind. I mean, I love her stuff, but I don't consider myself a Swiftie, know, like ⁓ it be great to have Taylor Swift. She's so empowering ⁓ and yeah, would, ⁓ yeah, storyteller. So that's. Jennifer Jumba: Right. She is. is a great storyteller. Heather Gudenkauf: I think I would do that. Jennifer Jumba: live in Iowa. Have you ever met Caitlin Clark? Heather Gudenkauf: I have not met Kate McClark. I have not. And I would love to because I'm a huge basketball fan. I'm a huge women's basketball, I watch every game for a long time. yeah, I could name just every player in the WNBA now and college basketball. And I just love it so much. So yeah, she's great. She's an inspiration, such a hard worker and so much fun to watch. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, what she's doing for like the next generation, I think is special. Heather Gudenkauf: ⁓ I... I do too. And I think what she also really highlights that there women and young women along the way who've done that as well, but didn't get the recognition that she's been ⁓ getting because circumstances and because she's a fantastic player. But it also that limelight to shared with so many who have come before and who are coming after. And it is So much fun to see young people excited about sports and women, young women, girls excited, and boys wearing, you know, number 22. It's exciting. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I'm excited for the season to start and I believe next year, it's the next year of the year after Cleveland is getting a WNBA team back. We used to have one when I first moved here and then it went away, but now we're getting another. So I'm super excited. Heather Gudenkauf: ⁓ Yeah... It is great. It's so much fun. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. I mean, I wish like Dawn's Daily could come coach me, you know, or Kara Larson from Duke. mean, both of them. incredible. Yeah. And there's actually, I think, a documentary on Pat's Summit, which I think would be interesting to ⁓ watch. Heather Gudenkauf: I now I know we're getting off on basketball, but played back in the day when there was six on six. ⁓ so it's, invite to it up because to explain the rules would would take a while. ⁓ And ⁓ one the classes in our high school that played six on six women's basketball. And so it's been so fun to see how changed. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Wow. Great. Absolutely. Yeah. Heather Gudenkauf: and opportunities out there for young women. Jennifer Jumba: For sure, yeah. What's your favorite card game? Heather Gudenkauf: my gosh, I don't really play cards. I'll go like in Iowa, a big one. couldn't even tell you how to play it. Euker is huge. Euker. I tell you. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Okay, Yooka was big when I was in college, ⁓ Yeah, I used to play ⁓ Jin Rummy with my grandma, which was Heather Gudenkauf: My husband's family tried to teach me that as well. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I've since forgotten, but it was fun while I did it. the final question, what song is always on your road trip playlist? Heather Gudenkauf: ⁓ what song? Okay, gosh. like oldies. I love Fleetwood Mac. ⁓ Dreams or ⁓ I listen to just about everything and it just depends on the mood. I like musicals, so I'll have those on my playlist too. When I'm writing, I'll often have classical music on or ⁓ in case of whatever book I'm working on, like Jamie from Jennifer Jumba: Me too. Heather Gudenkauf: perfect host was really in the 90s kind of hard rock. So I would listen to that as I was writing Jamie's character. Yeah, ⁓ I try to get into the heads of my characters sometimes as well. Yes. Jennifer Jumba: Very cool. Super fun. Yeah, well, this has been great. thank you to everybody who's listening and a huge thank you to Heather ⁓ for taking time to talk about her latest The Perfect Host. Like her other books, Heather always creates complex characters who face challenging situations and those echoes will remain with you when you finish reading the book. And then you'll crave the opportunity to talk to people after they've read the books because you can't believe these things just happened. To find out who else is a guest, go to storytocount.com. This is Storytocount with Jen Jumba.