Latest / The Front / Jews don’t want ‘thoughts and prayers’

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Jews don’t want ‘thoughts and prayers’ · The Front

0:05
Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
0:07
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, December seventeen, twenty twenty five. Thoughts and prayers.
0:15
Speaker 1: It's the easiest and most glib of social media platitudes.
0:19
Speaker 1: I'd like to be seen expressing sorrow, but I won't
0:22
Speaker 1: be going deeper. After the death of George Floyd, it
0:25
Speaker 1: was a black square when the Iranian government murdered girls
0:29
Speaker 1: for removing their veils, it was a performative haircut. Now
0:32
Speaker 1: it's a lengthy post expressing shock and horror. It's something
0:36
Speaker 1: that Jews have been telling us to expect, that racism
0:39
Speaker 1: and suspicion morphing into bullets ripping through flesh. In the
0:44
Speaker 1: aftermath of the weekend's Bonda Beach massacre, in which fifteen
0:47
Speaker 1: people were murdered, including a ten year old girl, some
0:50
Speaker 1: of the loudest performative mourners were people who've spent the
0:53
Speaker 1: years since October seven, twenty twenty three, demonizing Israel and Zionists.
0:59
Speaker 1: At the same time, and there's been a flood of
1:01
Speaker 1: take care of yourself messaging from schools, workplaces and well
1:05
Speaker 1: meaning people on WhatsApp advising parents to shield their children
1:09
Speaker 1: from this news that's changed the world. They're going to
1:13
Speaker 1: inherit today the Australians. Yonni Bashan joins me to talk
1:18
Speaker 1: about how this story is changing as the sounds of
1:22
Speaker 1: sirens fate. At six point forty seven pm on Sunday night,
1:30
Speaker 1: bullets started flying at Bondai Beach, and well before any
1:33
Speaker 1: of us really knew what was going on, we were
1:35
Speaker 1: getting reports and calls about a big police event down
1:38
Speaker 1: at the beach. You and I both work at The
1:41
Speaker 1: Australian and across the country and in Sydney, all of
1:44
Speaker 1: our staff suddenly clocked on, even the ones who weren't working.
1:48
Speaker 1: I started filing stories. You raced down to Bondai Beach.
1:52
Speaker 1: But it wasn't long on Sunday before opinions started to flow.
1:57
Speaker 1: Once it was clear that this was a shooting, that
2:00
Speaker 1: it had targeted Jewish people at a Hunnaker event, and
2:04
Speaker 1: that many people were dead and seriously injured, social media
2:09
Speaker 1: started lighting up with the old cliche thoughts and prayers,
2:13
Speaker 1: people saying that they were shocked, and some of those
2:15
Speaker 1: people were also posting amazing eyewitness vision of what they'd
2:19
Speaker 1: seen that's been incredibly useful for us. What was your
2:21
Speaker 1: reaction as you started to see those opinions coming in,
2:25
Speaker 1: not just.
2:25
Speaker 2: Facts, I mean, I think in the vacuum of fact,
2:28
Speaker 2: opinion arrives. And we've seen that in so many other scenarios.
2:30
Speaker 2: We saw it during the Bondi Junction stabbing event. That
2:32
Speaker 2: was a mass casualty event, and everyone had an opinion
2:34
Speaker 2: on the motivation for that before we eventually found out
2:36
Speaker 2: who was behind it and what their motivation was. And
2:39
Speaker 2: we saw the same thing with the Link Cafes age
2:41
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, and there are still divided opinions over
2:44
Speaker 2: what was cruly motivating that. In the end, with this
2:47
Speaker 2: particular event, I took a moment when I was down
2:49
Speaker 2: at the beach to sort of catch up on the facts, because,
2:51
Speaker 2: as you would know, there are so many sources of
2:54
Speaker 2: information rushing in at the same time, and when you're
2:56
Speaker 2: standing at a police court and waiting for an event
2:58
Speaker 2: to happen, such as are coming out or an eyewitness
3:02
Speaker 2: to turn up, you can get lost in what's happening
3:05
Speaker 2: around you, and you can forget that there are other
3:07
Speaker 2: sources of information coming in from the hospitals, from the
3:09
Speaker 2: police headquarters, from the politicians, and so I just took
3:12
Speaker 2: a beat to step back, go through my phone, have
3:14
Speaker 2: a look at Twitter, have a look at Instagram, see
3:17
Speaker 2: some of the footage that was coming in. And that's
3:18
Speaker 2: when I saw some of the opinions cropping up on
3:21
Speaker 2: my screen. And what surprised and slightly galled me was
3:24
Speaker 2: that the people who were expressing these opinions, the thoughts
3:27
Speaker 2: and prayers, the shock, not so much remorse, but certainly
3:31
Speaker 2: they're surprised that an event like this would happen at
3:33
Speaker 2: Bondo Beach were the very people who, in my mind
3:35
Speaker 2: and in the mind of a lot of Jewish people
3:37
Speaker 2: around Australia have been watching for the past two years,
3:41
Speaker 2: animating this discussion and animating it to an extent where
3:43
Speaker 2: we have felt unsafe, where it's been largely unsafe for
3:46
Speaker 2: us to express our Jewish identity in a really wholesome
3:49
Speaker 2: way and in a way that in Australia we've always
3:51
Speaker 2: been able to do. It's never been a problem to
3:53
Speaker 2: say to someone in this country that you're Jewish. It
3:55
Speaker 2: now has been a problem for the past two years,
3:57
Speaker 2: and it's something that I know a lot of Jews
3:59
Speaker 2: are self conscious about. You can imagine it You're having
4:01
Speaker 2: a conversation with someone you've never met before, and they
4:03
Speaker 2: might ask you where you're from, and if you say
4:06
Speaker 2: that you're from Israel, as I am at best, they
4:09
Speaker 2: might be uncomfortable with that because morally responsible people are
4:13
Speaker 2: supposed to have an opinion on wars that are taking
4:17
Speaker 2: shape around the world. We're supposed to have an opinion
4:19
Speaker 2: on Russia and Ukraine, We're supposed to have an opinion
4:21
Speaker 2: on Israel and Kamas, And so when you express that
4:24
Speaker 2: to someone, they don't really know what to say. And
4:26
Speaker 2: on the other end of that spectrum of people who
4:28
Speaker 2: have very strong opinions about that and might judge you accordingly.
4:31
Speaker 2: So it's been tough.
4:33
Speaker 1: It's been interesting watching you go through that. We're really
4:35
Speaker 1: good friends, and I often get extremely annoyed and angry
4:38
Speaker 1: on your behalf about slights that you're receiving or telling
4:42
Speaker 1: me about or that I observe, and you are, I
4:46
Speaker 1: think dealing with those with on a lot more of
4:49
Speaker 1: an even keel than I am. I'm enraged and you
4:52
Speaker 1: are dealing with it quite calmly. But do you actually
4:55
Speaker 1: feel calm? And has your opinion change since Sunday?
4:58
Speaker 2: I don't think my opinion has changed the the thread
5:00
Speaker 2: environment in this country. I think my feeling about the
5:02
Speaker 2: threat environment was always very much deligned with what our
5:05
Speaker 2: Jewish leaders had been warning and what the Israeli government
5:07
Speaker 2: had been saying for quite a long time, which is
5:09
Speaker 2: that a city in Australia will almost certainly come under
5:12
Speaker 2: some form of attack motivated by hatred towards Jews at
5:15
Speaker 2: some point in the future. And I remember distinctly, after
5:18
Speaker 2: Alex Rivchin's home was attacked, he was one of the
5:22
Speaker 2: first people to say, it's not a matter of if,
5:24
Speaker 2: but when. And I don't think anyone quite expected that
5:28
Speaker 2: what would happen at Bondi Beach A would occur, and
5:30
Speaker 2: be that it would be of such a significant scale,
5:32
Speaker 2: with such an intelligence failing underpinning at I think what
5:36
Speaker 2: we expected was stronger leadership on the issue of anti
5:38
Speaker 2: Semitism and what again remained so striking and galling about
5:42
Speaker 2: this situation. I've just come back from a press conference
5:45
Speaker 2: with the Prime Minister and I asked him, why haven't
5:48
Speaker 2: you announced that a suite of anti Semitism measures that
5:50
Speaker 2: can be instituted or rolled out at a point in
5:52
Speaker 2: the future. Why Are we having a conversation about gun
5:55
Speaker 2: laws right now? It seems rather like a distraction and
5:59
Speaker 2: he wasn't really to give a very satisfactory answer on
6:01
Speaker 2: that control.
6:03
Speaker 3: That's not true. The report is not accurate. The meeting
6:08
Speaker 3: yesterday had front and center a commitment Prime Minister today
6:14
Speaker 3: can be in a meeting a national cab following the
6:16
Speaker 3: evil anti Semitic terrorist attack directed at members of the
6:19
Speaker 3: Jewish community celebrating Hahne Gert Sydney's Blondo Beach. This is
6:23
Speaker 3: talking document that was.
6:24
Speaker 2: Present State prints to push you, and I can tell
6:27
Speaker 2: you from my conversations with people overseas, people in Israel
6:30
Speaker 2: and elsewhere, they have woken up this morning and texted
6:32
Speaker 2: me saying, are we really having a conversation about gun
6:34
Speaker 2: law reform? Twenty four hours after what happened to Bondopage.
6:37
Speaker 2: So I think that's really striking. And I do wonder
6:40
Speaker 2: as well if the information that we obtained from the
6:42
Speaker 2: press conference about the presence of an ISIS flag might
6:45
Speaker 2: provide the Prime Minister with an escape hatch down a
6:49
Speaker 2: separate path away from hardcore anti Semitism into just pure Judadism.
6:54
Speaker 4: I also confirmed that the vehicle which is registered to
6:57
Speaker 4: the younger male attained IEDs. But I also confirm that
7:03
Speaker 4: it contained two homemade ISIS flags.
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Speaker 2: That would be a shame too, because this isn't just
7:09
Speaker 2: a matter of puatism. It's he shouldn't be attempting to
7:12
Speaker 2: separate what occurred, or he shouldn't try to delineate between
7:16
Speaker 2: this being an ISIS motivated attack, or this being a
7:19
Speaker 2: Hamas motivated attack or an Iranian motivated attack. It was
7:21
Speaker 2: attack that specifically targeted Jewish people, and that's not within dispute.
7:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea of antisemitism being racism, or being a
7:30
Speaker 1: deliberate targeting of Jews, and any attack on Jews being
7:34
Speaker 1: an act of anti Semitism, all those ideas are actually
7:37
Speaker 1: not that clear in the minds of some people apparently,
7:40
Speaker 1: but they're clear to me. Like the Hamas attack on
7:42
Speaker 1: October seven, was that resistance or whether he oppressed people
7:45
Speaker 1: sort of breaking out, No, it was an antisemitic terrorist
7:48
Speaker 1: attack clearly because the victims were Jews overwhelmingly. There were,
7:53
Speaker 1: of course, some non Jews who were caught up in
7:55
Speaker 1: the chaos, including some Muslim security guards and people like that.
8:00
Speaker 1: When those heartbroken emojis and prayer hands. I think what
8:04
Speaker 1: you've identified in a piece for The Australian is the
8:06
Speaker 1: hypocrisy of those people you were speaking about before. We're
8:10
Speaker 1: talking about people like Abbi Chatfield, Mary Costikidas, Randa abdel Fhatar,
8:15
Speaker 1: people who have spoken loud and clear about their dislike
8:20
Speaker 1: of Israel, their belief that Zionism is evil and that
8:25
Speaker 1: Zionism is somehow a genocidal project, as opposed to just
8:30
Speaker 1: being what it actually is, which is the belief that
8:32
Speaker 1: Jewish people deserve a homeland. So why do you think,
8:37
Speaker 1: given their views are pretty clear, I would say they
8:40
Speaker 1: were verging towards, if not actually anti Semitic. Why bother
8:45
Speaker 1: with the prayer hands and the broken hearts and the
8:47
Speaker 1: shock and horror.
8:48
Speaker 2: It's a great question, and that was again so surprising
8:51
Speaker 2: and striking about it. That's why when I saw it,
8:53
Speaker 2: I thought to myself, your hypocrites. You are the people
8:56
Speaker 2: who've been building this for the past two years. And
8:59
Speaker 2: I want to give these people that benefit of the doubt.
9:01
Speaker 2: I want to imagine in my heart of hearts that
9:03
Speaker 2: this is not the outcome they wanted. And I don't
9:04
Speaker 2: think you would believe that either. I don't think most
9:07
Speaker 2: ripe thinking people would assume that this was an outcome
9:10
Speaker 2: that any one of these people wanted. These people are activists,
9:13
Speaker 2: and they have a specific goal in their mind, and
9:16
Speaker 2: they have a certain type of language and rhetoric that
9:18
Speaker 2: they're using. I guess the issue is is that Jewish
9:21
Speaker 2: leaders and Australians in general, you don't need to be
9:24
Speaker 2: an ally of the Jewish community to say this. They've
9:26
Speaker 2: been saying to these people, your language is hate field,
9:29
Speaker 2: you are using specific terms like globalized, the Intifada, and
9:32
Speaker 2: you were deliberately trying to cancel a certain group of
9:35
Speaker 2: people from polite society, those people being Zionis. This use
9:38
Speaker 2: of the word Zionism as a cover for Jews has
9:41
Speaker 2: been one of the most insidious phrases to enter the
9:43
Speaker 2: modern lexicon. I mean, the word Zionism has been around
9:46
Speaker 2: for decades, but it's usage now in common parlance has
9:49
Speaker 2: been such that I'm deeply cynical about the way that
9:52
Speaker 2: most of these people use it.
9:54
Speaker 4: To me.
9:54
Speaker 2: When I hear zionis, so just hear jew.
9:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, as you've written, it's a fancy word for Jew.
9:59
Speaker 1: But I'm assign I believe that Israel has a right
10:01
Speaker 1: to a homeland, just like I think that you are
10:04
Speaker 1: a feminist although you're not a woman, because you believe
10:06
Speaker 1: that women should be equal.
10:08
Speaker 2: That would be their cover, wouldn't it. Yeah, Well, when
10:10
Speaker 2: I refer to Zionist, I'm not specifically referring to Is.
10:12
Speaker 2: I'm referring to anyone who happens to have a belief
10:14
Speaker 2: system aligned with Zionism or who believes in Zionism. I
10:17
Speaker 2: think that's rubbish. I think they know what they're doing
10:19
Speaker 2: when they use the term Zionism. They're talking about us.
10:25
Speaker 1: Coming up more of my conversation with Jonni Bishan, I
10:44
Speaker 1: think there's something more cynical at the base of the
10:48
Speaker 1: blooming in content about Zionism or zios. It's I think
10:54
Speaker 1: a group of people who identified a vacuum in the
10:58
Speaker 1: culture or an opportunity in the cult to get a
11:01
Speaker 1: lot of likes and go viral. They were talking about
11:04
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter, then they were talking about trans rites,
11:07
Speaker 1: then they started talking about October seven. Some people in
11:10
Speaker 1: the kind of online commentary space I think on social media,
11:13
Speaker 1: and Runner abdel Feta would be one, have been talking
11:16
Speaker 1: about Palestine four years. This is clearly an issue that
11:19
Speaker 1: she deeply believes in even though I disagree. Abby Chatfield,
11:23
Speaker 1: on the other hand, was not a scholar of the
11:25
Speaker 1: Middle East before October seven, twenty twenty three. Clementine Ford,
11:29
Speaker 1: I would say, fits into the same basket. So isn't
11:33
Speaker 1: there a very cynical exploitation of this crisis in the
11:36
Speaker 1: Middle East where a really rational opinion to have would
11:40
Speaker 1: be this is horrible. I hate the fact that everybody's dying,
11:43
Speaker 1: and it's way too complex for me to have an
11:46
Speaker 1: opinion on.
11:46
Speaker 2: With or to just say what happened on October seven
11:49
Speaker 2: was horrible and I could never possibly support the actions
11:51
Speaker 2: of hamas prescribe terrorist group. And when I hear about
11:54
Speaker 2: the rapes that occurred at the Nova festival, when I
11:56
Speaker 2: heard about the indiscriminate killings or the families that were
11:58
Speaker 2: burned in their homes, yes, that is absolutely horrible. And
12:01
Speaker 2: then it would be just as justifiable position to say
12:03
Speaker 2: I also don't like war, and I don't like what
12:05
Speaker 2: Israel's done in Gaza, and I don't like seeing a
12:07
Speaker 2: really high civilian death count. That's something that no one
12:09
Speaker 2: wants to see. Israelis don't want to see it either.
12:12
Speaker 2: The part that's so perverse and deranged to me is
12:14
Speaker 2: that throughout this conflict, you and I would have encountered people,
12:18
Speaker 2: either at rallies or doing our jobs, or people we
12:20
Speaker 2: meet at the pub or wherever, who seem to just
12:22
Speaker 2: have a very galvanized view on this conflict. It's polarized.
12:26
Speaker 2: That would probably be the better word, in which if
12:29
Speaker 2: you have a view about Israel's war in Gaza, you
12:32
Speaker 2: cannot possibly have a view about Kamas. I've found it
12:35
Speaker 2: really hard to find a person who can say to me,
12:37
Speaker 2: I really don't like Kamas. Horrible people wish they weren't
12:40
Speaker 2: involved in anything to do with the administration of Gaza,
12:42
Speaker 2: wish they would just go away. I also don't like
12:44
Speaker 2: what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza either. I
12:47
Speaker 2: just wish this war'ld end. I'm finding a very limited
12:50
Speaker 2: number of people who occupy that middle space. Everything so polarized,
12:53
Speaker 2: but people don't talk about what doesn't rate. And we're
12:55
Speaker 2: in the same business. We're in the entertainment business. We
12:57
Speaker 2: want to speak to our readers about what they want
12:59
Speaker 2: to hear, and we want to also te them what
13:00
Speaker 2: we think they should hear.
13:01
Speaker 1: I think the tone of that conversation too, has really
13:05
Speaker 1: created a fear about news content or about coverage of
13:10
Speaker 1: this war among people who shouldn't be afraid of the news.
13:13
Speaker 1: I'm because I'm a parent exposed to a lot of
13:15
Speaker 1: communications directed at parents. Here's how you know, Five ways
13:19
Speaker 1: that you can talk to your kids about what happened
13:21
Speaker 1: at Bondi Beach. How about turning off news media for
13:24
Speaker 1: a couple of days, keep your kids close, and change
13:26
Speaker 1: the subject. Is the tone of communications I'm seeing and getting,
13:31
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of that is very well meaning.
13:33
Speaker 1: And yeah, kids are scared. It is really scary. But
13:37
Speaker 1: I don't think that after the attack on Pearl Harbor
13:40
Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties that parents in America or Australia
13:45
Speaker 1: turned their televisions off and told the kids not to watch.
13:48
Speaker 1: I don't think after JFK's assassination in the sixties or
13:51
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, that parents were telling their kids they
13:54
Speaker 1: didn't need to worry about this, go and read a
13:56
Speaker 1: book like these kids are going to inherit the world
14:00
Speaker 1: that we've created for them. They need to know about
14:02
Speaker 1: what's going on. In my view, do you remember learning
14:05
Speaker 1: about the news? Are engaging with the news as a
14:06
Speaker 1: kid and what that was like for you.
14:08
Speaker 2: Well, I remember that, particularly in this country. I think
14:10
Speaker 2: we've been extremely lucky. We're not exposed to weekly terrorist
14:14
Speaker 2: attacks of the kind that I know are occurring in
14:16
Speaker 2: other parts of the world, and particularly where I'm originally from,
14:19
Speaker 2: in Israel, And I know that in Israel, similar efforts
14:22
Speaker 2: to shelter and mollycoddle children after a terrorist attack don't
14:25
Speaker 2: really exist. There's very much focus on resilience, in just
14:27
Speaker 2: getting out and living your life and thumbing your nose
14:30
Speaker 2: at terrorists by getting on with life. I just think
14:32
Speaker 2: that is something that we're not used to in this country.
14:34
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if that should be I despise the
14:36
Speaker 2: term of the new normal. I don't think we're entering
14:38
Speaker 2: a new normal. I think this is an anomalous, horrific
14:41
Speaker 2: event that occurred on Sunday. It'll be up to parents
14:43
Speaker 2: as to what they want to expose their children too.
14:46
Speaker 1: But there's a way to talk to kids about these
14:48
Speaker 1: kinds of things where you focus on the heroes and
14:51
Speaker 1: the helpers. You talk about mister Akhmed, the tobacconists who
14:54
Speaker 1: tackle one of the shooters to the ground. You you
14:56
Speaker 1: talk about the Bond Eye detective who hid behind a
14:58
Speaker 1: tree and shots our crime dead. You talk about the
15:02
Speaker 1: off duty corps who rushed to Bond Eye, the uniformed officers,
15:06
Speaker 1: the ambulance, the off duty doctors who found themselves compressing
15:09
Speaker 1: wounds in doing CPR. In any dramatic event, you can
15:14
Speaker 1: always find a ray of light to help kids get
15:16
Speaker 1: through it. But they have a right to know what's
15:19
Speaker 1: going on.
15:20
Speaker 2: I think, of course they do. But I think you're
15:21
Speaker 2: right too that we should be maximizing the stories of courage, bravery, loyalty,
15:26
Speaker 2: service duty. Those are things that are missing from all
15:28
Speaker 2: the Hollywood movies now. All the Hollywood movies we see
15:30
Speaker 2: now about depressing things about betrayal and anger and murder,
15:32
Speaker 2: and we should be talking about more positive things, and
15:35
Speaker 2: we should be talking about the positives arising out of this.
15:37
Speaker 2: And the stories that are arising out of what occurred
15:39
Speaker 2: on Sunday are just utterly extraordinary, and they continue to
15:42
Speaker 2: develop in a similar fashion. We talk about how to
15:45
Speaker 2: solve this issue moving forward. In terms of educating people
15:48
Speaker 2: about anti Semitism. One of the things that surprises me,
15:51
Speaker 2: particularly about the left side of politics or the progressive left,
15:55
Speaker 2: is that they have been so willing to embrace certain
15:58
Speaker 2: minority groups. I don't need to name any particular one,
16:00
Speaker 2: but academic institutions, childcare centers, corporations have gone out of
16:06
Speaker 2: their way to accommodate certain minorities in the spirit of
16:10
Speaker 2: social justice and in the spirit of inclusion. Why is
16:13
Speaker 2: it so hard to do that for a minority population
16:16
Speaker 2: like the Jews, which is subject to actual violence, not
16:19
Speaker 2: just microaggressions. I don't understand why the progressive left has
16:22
Speaker 2: been so willing and capable to do that for some
16:24
Speaker 2: groups but not for others. In fact, the progressive left
16:26
Speaker 2: seems to be decidedly against doing that for the Jews.
16:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, how on earth did anti semitism, which is a
16:32
Speaker 1: form of racism, become a progressive value. It's ridiculous. I
16:36
Speaker 1: think the answer can only be that there's in our society, sadly,
16:41
Speaker 1: a latent fear and hatred of Jews, and if you
16:45
Speaker 1: scratch the surface, it comes bubbling up.
16:47
Speaker 2: I'm also somewhat convinced that there is a certain derangement
16:50
Speaker 2: that exists amongst these people in which they think that
16:54
Speaker 2: talking about Zionism and Zios and genocide and ethnic cleansing
16:59
Speaker 2: has no concert quins, and that they are entirely valid
17:02
Speaker 2: and justified in expressing themselves in that way. I think
17:05
Speaker 2: what I'd like to see from our Prime Minister, from
17:07
Speaker 2: our leaders, is someone to just say you have to
17:09
Speaker 2: stop doing that. This isn't a freedom of speech issue.
17:12
Speaker 2: This is an issue of hate and incitement. This is
17:14
Speaker 2: not protest anymore. There is a difference, and this is
17:16
Speaker 2: what I wrote about in the piece. There is a
17:17
Speaker 2: difference between protest and criticism of government handling of a
17:21
Speaker 2: war and incitement to violence. And for the people who
17:24
Speaker 2: still need to be convinced that their words have consequences,
17:27
Speaker 2: you just need to look at Bondo Beach. It's happening.
17:29
Speaker 2: This is real, and you don't just need to look
17:30
Speaker 2: at Bonda Beach. The Jewish community saw this coming. We
17:33
Speaker 2: saw it happening in Washington. Two people were murdered there,
17:35
Speaker 2: and we saw it happen in Manchester. It was only
17:37
Speaker 2: a matter of time before it came here. What we
17:40
Speaker 2: didn't know was that it was going to be an
17:41
Speaker 2: order of magnitude bicker over here several perhaps.
17:44
Speaker 1: Janni Bijon, thank you very much.
17:46
Speaker 2: Thank you.
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Speaker 1: Johnny Bichan is a senior journalist with The Australian. You
17:53
Speaker 1: can check out his reporting right now at the Australian
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Speaker 1: dot com dot a u