Latest / Better Planner / #10 - Think Beyond Software | With Sam Flaten
Transcript
- Taylor Stewart: All right, welcome back to another episode of the Better Planer Podcast. As always, I've got Colin Page with me. Colin, how are you? Colin: Great Taylor, how are you? Taylor Stewart: I'm awesome, and it's because it's not just the two of us today. We have Mr. Sam Flatten with us. Sam, how are ya? Sam: Doing well, how are you guys? Taylor Stewart: Very good, very good. How we've never actually met in person. We're just LinkedIn acquaintances. the way I would initially describe it is I find myself like feeling like I could have written, I would have written whatever you post, I feel like I would have written myself. So we've got a lot of alignment there. Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: we've we've met, you reached out and checked out Cordora a while ago, so that's where we kind of met. But like I'm so fascinated by you because you're super insightful on LinkedIn, and your job is not what most people would expect. What do you do in the planning world? Sam: Yeah, so I fill a paraplanner role for at this point. I've worked probably with about 30 firms, but ongoing twelve to fifteen. and it's not a traditional paraplanning seat as the industry's defined it, where it's like kind of a stepping stone/slash CSA position. It really is a complete removal by the advisor of the CFP. hat. So the the actual planning, the recommendations, the putting the plan together, figuring out how it's gonna translate to the client, what the client's actually gonna do, how it's gonna be implemented. So then my advisors are just sitting with the client. And so I it becomes like a lead advisor that's just in the background. so I Taylor Stewart: That's fascinating. Sam: but I mark it as paraplanning because that's what SEO likes. Taylor Stewart: Yeah, say like Colin: Tell us more so what is a traditional paraplanner and how we're Sam: Yeah, so I and I think traditional pair planning is changing 'cause you're seeing like it more of a separation between CS CSA type stuff, which is a lot of client-facing, data gathering, CRM stuff, like vital things to a a firm, which is cool that it's being separated from paraplanning because I don't think you can have one person do both well. just like I don't think you can have a firm runner relationship manager do doing your planning internally super well. You I mean you have to, there's a lot of solos out there, but it's always better when you have two minds to kind of separate those things. But I think traditional paraplanning is kind of just like a a learning role. Where you're doing data entry, maybe you're coming up with some scenarios or thinking through recommendations, you're getting your CFP hours requirements, and then you're kind of pushing paper otherwise. Like it's very much a transient type role. I think the industry is realizing that it can't be, which is where you're getting like the term internal advisor from or like a servicing advisor from. So that's kinda how I'm I'm different. I take full ownership and when I do a plan, it's as if I'm gonna sit in front of a client and deliver it. which I don't think is traditional of a pair planner. Taylor Stewart: Do you ever sit in public? Sam: I don't anymore. I I did a couple of times, under extreme circumstances. but I d I tend not to. I don't wanna get named in a complaint erroneously and now I'm registered, so I I don't usually Taylor Stewart: How d how did you get to this spot? Like how did y that Sam: Yeah, so just by not wanting to work with clients anymore is the sh is a short version. It's really and Colin: Ha ha ha. Taylor Stewart: Ha ha ha ha ha. Sam: and it's not like you know, it's kinda like my wife is a physical therapist and Taylor Stewart: Mm. Sam: and when you get into PT, not many people get into PT thinking like, geez, I want to work with diabetics. or or chronic pain. Well, I shouldn't say that. There's a lot of people that want to work with chronic pain. But like the vast majority are from Taylor Stewart: Mm-hmm. Sam: a kinesiology background and they want to work with like really high-end athletes. And Taylor Stewart: No. Sam: so for me, I I'm not a very nice person either. And so it you guys get it from being advisors. It's hard to like bite your tongue all the time with clients if they're not like ideal, motivated, clear thinking kind of clients. But I find advisors are. There's a lot of type A, there's a lot of clear thinking, there's a lot of motivation. And action and people that want to change. And so Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. Sam: that's how I ended up here, partly through choice, partly through a series of like not good choices in some parts of my career and and Taylor Stewart: Ha ha. Sam: just relationship conflict. You know, I started off in a family family business. That's what I was gonna do my whole life, is run is run my dad's practice, and that just didn't last. So Taylor Stewart: Or Sam: Yeah, so he started at Lutheran Brotherhood, which is now thriving. Taylor Stewart: Okay. Sam: and then he transitioned to LPL back when that was like independence on Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: the broken dealer side. and then so he ran a firm for like thirty years. so I grew up going to like the focus event in Boston Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: and San Diego and so like that you know, people ask like how many years of experience do you have? It's really only seven or eight, but like I grew up Taylor Stewart: I Sam: around the stuff. Taylor Stewart: So I've my dad's an advisor, same same thing. And I tell people when they ask me how officially 10 years, unofficially 36 years. Because literally Sam: Exactly. Taylor Stewart: I remember four or five years old going to the office and I would scan flip through life insurance illustrations and some what you know, whatever I didn't know what I was looking at at the time. It's like, so I I didn't know that about you. That's awesome, man. I love it. And I also started working with my dad and no longer Sam: Yeah, yep. Yeah. Taylor Stewart: do. No, we have a we it wasn't a messy breakup, it was just kind of like two right answers that didn't belong together type of thing. Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: that's fascinating. yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sam: Yeah. I'm finding it's a common story. some like I mean a lot of people it's not that most of the people in the industry had a family member doing it. It's just like it seems like if there's a family member that's an advisor, that is almost always invariably one of the children chooses that path. Taylor Stewart: I think I think it's I mean an amazing profession and career. Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: and I mean I that's a whole different thing of I you know, there's some issues with the industry and like for me it was like I didn't want to do it the way that it was do it was trying to be sensitive here, you know, traditional AE women insurance sales, like that's Sam: Yes. Taylor Stewart: fine. And I don't blame him at all. I was like, I wanna do this flat fee planning thing. And that's Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: where I was like, Two right ways, don't blame me, you've done it forever, it's not you're not doing it wrong, it just wasn't for me. And so like, I think it's a great career to get into. Colin's a career changer. He didn't have that influence. Colin: No, I didn't. but I have a twelve year old who who has plans to to get into the business now. So he he Sam: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Colin: w he's he's pushing for a summer internship. Sam: Oui. Taylor Stewart: Dude, do it. The learning is amazing. Like I I think I brought Colin: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: maybe last time, like I I had to like digitize the filing cabinet one summer and that was like scanning everything. Sam: Yes. Taylor Stewart: And then like as I was scanning, I would reading and notes and how to present stuff. And there's just so much learning you get there. And but but to bring it back to you, Sam, like yeah, exact yeah, but like you you bring up an interesting point Sam: You're speaking to my soul. Colin: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: because like I think the job is like there's there's the strategic puzzle part of the job, which appeals to a certain part of our brain, certain personalities. Then there's the therapist role. of being an advisor that appeals to certain people. It it is hard to find somebody who's truly great at both. And I actually think it's really cool for you to say, I want to focus on the part I'm good at, but also the advisors you work with to be like, I'm just that's not my strong suit. There are some amazing relationship or explainer type people that I actually think it's awesome that they find you versus faking it or doing subpart work. I think that's that's really neat. but I still I I I yeah, I find myself like struggling still like a p an advisor who doesn't plan. you know what? But Sam: Yeah, right. Colin: Yeah, yeah. So walk walk us through like walk us through a typical case, like from the moment an advisor hands it to you, like what do you need from the advisor from day one? What what do you Sam: Yeah. Colin: bring back? Like what is a good handoff look like? How how does that actually work when you're when you're not the one interfacing with Sam: Yeah, every every advisor comes to me. Colin: the client? Sam: Yeah, every advisor comes to me different. I find that this is probably not a great analogy, but it's kind of like adopting a dog from a shelter and like you kind of never know what you're gonna get. Like some Taylor Stewart: Ha ha ha ha ha. Sam: some of these advisors have ha hired people that have like really not treated them well. And so they're it takes a longer they're at a different point in trusting you in the process. But my best, most productive and trusting relationships are advisors that are like, hey, I'm gonna set up an alert on the on your email for when people upload things. And then I don't wanna hear from you until it's a loom going over a final draft of a plan. and that's how I work best, is just, hey, run with it. Like I'm gonna sit in this room for today and I'm gonna work on the Johnson plan or whatever. Taylor Stewart: Mm-hmm. Sam: that might that might conclude in like I need some more data or it might conclude in the finished plan or or whatever. you know, other others of my advisors, and this is no like knock on them, it's just the way that the industry is, and why I think the paraplanning role needs to change, is because advisors are also on the bad end of people constantly leaving that position. I might meet with them for a brief new client comes in or an existing client, they want to fill me in on them and their background, kind of what they're thinking planning wise. And then they'll want like a mid-plan check-in and then like a wrap-up, make sure the plan looks good. Whatever the plan is too, right? There's always a learning curve. And where I compete on over hiring somebody W 2 is like I've seen every iteration of planning workflow you could possibly conceive. And the the learning curve on your workflow for me is going to be one plan versus three to four years for somebody just getting into the industry. so I know that's like a long-winded answer, but it's different for every advisor. Taylor Stewart: So th this sec sorry, we're gonna ask something, Colin? Colin: I was gonna say so what I mean th this is i it's so interesting for me 'cause I feel like what I do for I I don't actually deliver a quote unquote plan to the client. Like there's no document that I'm providing Sam: Yeah. Colin: them at you know, at some point in our engagement or after our initial like onboarding phase. the pl plan is very much an ongoing yeah there are steps or next steps or or things to do, but like what what are you actually providing to the to that advisor versus to the client and and how does that handoff work? Sam: Yeah. Again, say like kind of same answer. So it's whatever your expectation is the is the advisor. I work with advisors like you, where it's like I just need the plan built out across my software, whatever those are, and then I'll provide like internal notes of what my I I tr dictate as I work for all plans. So I'm just talking out loud for basically two hours. and then I'll condense that into notes that So what they can see my line of thinking and my conclusions and then I'll build out scenarios. So for someone like that's my preferred way of playing. That's how I plan in front of clients is like it all just stays in whatever soft one software. Like right capital just be like a very high level view of your blueprint and you know the nice cash flow chart and then we look at the retirement center and play around some stuff, maybe answer a cash flow question. So if that's your preferred, which I think is way harder to achieve than pumping out a fifty page plan in front of somebody to distill it into something like that. like whatever your workflow is to get there, that's what I provide. So yeah. Taylor Stewart: Man, you gotta be flexible. That's that takes some mastery, which we're gonna get to, I think. But like, can we I wanna talk about what is a financial plan? Because this is something you and I have gone back and forth a bit. Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: I feel very passionate about. I have some like strong, not passionate, like just some strong thoughts on like what it is or isn't. Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: I'm not gonna say anymore. What is a financial plan? Sam: I want to say something super woo-woo, but I think a financial plan is like the relationship. Like that, that's what a financial Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: plan is. It's like a living thing. Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: what it's what I don't think it is is like a document. I think a document is like a good landmark for where things were in that moment. and I like when there's actionable next steps for clients. But again, that that includes or requires ongoing assistance. And so Taylor Stewart: No Sam: like go ahead. Taylor Stewart: no no. Sam: I I like my version of a plan is much closer to what yours and Collins's, which is like this is a living ongoing conversation. I used to produce something called an outcomes map. So I've like got a whole framework for client leadership and like guiding what that looks like. And for me the the key deliverable of the whole year was like here are the outcomes that we're seeking. And like this is what your outcomes map was five years ago. And so I'm always trying to look at or I was always trying to to to reassess what value the client was seeking from me and like that was the plan. Cause then I could reverse engineer what work I was gonna do and when for that person and get into like the hard stuff that they don't care about. Taylor Stewart: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I see, I think to me, a plan, if we said in anywhere else, like what's your workout plan? They wouldn't say, like, here's a chart. Sam: Mm. Taylor Stewart: It's what are you gonna do? A plan is a plan of action. And Sam: Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: so for me, it like it's action, and it can be a bullet point list, it can be verbal. Yes, the I I actually agree with the relationship thing, but like it's a plan of action. But to come up with what to do. does require clarifying what you want, establishing where you Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: are, and optim, you know, making the trade-offs and decisions and priorities to get where you want to go. But like where I'm going with this is like probably more of like the where I think some advisors get in their own way with deliverables and what the software does or doesn't do and requiring it and like thinking like a plan is a physical thing. But like that's how I think about a plan and just that planning is a is a is a plan is is action. What are you gonna do next? And Sam: Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: There's a lot that goes into that and it can be whatever the client needs to know, like the level of d it's a very flexible thing. So I just I wanted to get your thoughts before we went too much deeper. Colin, are you gonna share your thoughts on what a plan is? Colin: yeah, I mean I I I'm I'm one of those that has confused deliverables with plan and gone back and forth about what do I actually give them. and Taylor Stewart: Uh-huh. Colin: and I've spent I've done project plans where I've spent hours creating a a a ten page document in Word that goes through every financial, you know, aspect of their life that took hours and hours to produce. and I've found like the best you know, the clients that are most satisfied feel like they Or the ones that feel like they just they know what to do next. They're not over it's not a document. It's a it's a you know, it's a it's a bullet point list. Like you said, it's a recap email after our meeting, like, hey, this is what we talked about and here are my f three things I need to do before the next meeting or you know, so it's it's you know, my my my my plan has has you know, the deliverable portion of my plan has has largely been reduced to just that. Like, here's the notes from our meeting, here's what to do now. And if if they need to see a chart, if they you know, th if if there is like you know, of course there's some numbers involved sometimes. but but really like what they value most is that recap email. Taylor Stewart: Yeah, you can support the or give context or help them understand with other stuff, but at the end of the day, the plan is Colin: Sure. Taylor Stewart: the the list of things. And I think Save you talked about your outcomes map. I want hear more about that. Colin, you used to we shared deliverables when you started. Like, yeah, it used to be more robust than it is now. For me, like I I remember building PowerPoint slides with transitions and screenshots and fades in and out. Like I thought it like I don't do any of that anymore. And like kind of the the genesis like where like what all led to this Cordora thing was like I spent all I I built those those PowerPoints, then I would pay for every technology under the sun. Clients didn't care about any of it. I asked them, what do you actually want from me? And they said we want to understand our financial life and know what to do next. And that was like this a change a huge moment for me. And so like that's where it's like the plan is what to do next. You need to provide the context to make sure they understand it. That's what a plan is. Which can I pull up one of your LinkedIn posts from the other day? Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: Sam. So you said Here's a question I think every advisor should ask themselves. What business are you actually in? If your answer is financial planning, I I'd argue you're aiming too low. The best plan the best advisors I know aren't in the planning business. They're in the bus business of managing complexity. And you boil it down to Yeah, like what I I don't want to just read the whole thing. what would you you're I feel like you were saying something very similar to what I was getting at there. That like remember that, yeah. Sam: Yeah, and the fitness analogy is is really good. I always avoid it myself unless I understand my room that I'm in because Early in my career, I would start talking like that, making those analogies, and people's like eyes would glaze over. So I'm glad that I know I'm in a safe room to make continue making the those analogies. But you're you're Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sam: exactly right. So to speak to like what I think an advisor's value actually is, so there's like core pillars of complexity. So it's like environmental and relationship complexities and behavioral complexities, like those are the things that can take the plan. So that's a huge part of an advisor's ongoing value is like managing these things that can divert the trajectory of a plan in the in a direction. And that's why I'm not a huge, always a huge fan of one-time plans. Again, I think they're valuable in and of themselves to a certain extent, but like, you know, that plan is not gonna get executed, that 10-year plan that you put together. It's just not it's not gonna get us done as well as if if you're around. So that's one part of the value. The other part of the value is obviously just access to you and your work. And if you have a team, access to your team, like that's should underpin all of the value. And then like at the very top, if if you're picturing as a pyramid, it really is like the value the client is seeking. So again, defining like what is the thing. And like that's the million dollar question that was so intimidating to me coming to the business is like how do I even figure out what a client wants? Like it's not just retirement. you know, really getting granular into I had a client once that wanted to race cigarette boats on the Great Lakes. So it's like, okay, let's get s let's get specific about that. What does it look like? And then getting right down to the significance, like why. Well, my dad Taylor Stewart: Mm-hmm. Sam: wanted to do that. He never did because he retired too late and he didn't Taylor Stewart: Hmm. Sam: elect a pension option that supported my mom after he was gone. And it all kind of fell apart. It's like, okay, well that's a much Taylor Stewart: Mm, mm, mm. Sam: And then from there you can reverse engineer, you know, for the client motivation piece. I'm asking you to do X and you don't want to. And it's like, well, you told me this outcome was important to you and this was a significance. This was your 10 out 10. So I'm telling you, you have to. It's like it's not a choice. If you want this, you have to do this thing today. so kind of went on a tangent there completely, but that's yeah, that's how I view an advisor's Taylor Stewart: No, it's great. That's that's great. But like but you but Sam: value. Taylor Stewart: and I I didn't read to the bottom, like you said, like they're hiring somebody to help them make better decisions when life gets complicated. Like you're and manage Sam: Yes. Taylor Stewart: that complexity. And like I think it's also like I think it's easy to think our role, at least I thought like with training was like to like be all knowing and to provide comfort Sam: Yeah, no. Taylor Stewart: at all times and certainty that everything's gonna be okay. It's like sometimes it won't, but they just need to know that they're doing the best that they can. Like Or I w we have a phrase that we call and I use, make the most of your money. That's what I think most people are trying to do. They're trying do the best they can, put it in the right spots, not do anything stupid. Like that's what people as long as they feel like they're doing that towards what they want, they understand what they need to do next, that's what they're searching for. And it's that feeling that you need to give them. It's not scheduled meetings to just make it seem like you're doing stuff and a bunch of deliverables and whatnot. Like that's not what they're paying for. Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: At it really at the core, at the core, I think. But Sam: Yeah, I and I think I think we're saying the same thing, but like I think you provide that by clarifying what they're already thinking and the value that they Taylor Stewart: Sure. Sam: you know, maybe somebody's mission or truest value is like optimizing and making the most of their money, maybe. You know? but to get them to articulate that, like you have, seemingly several times, I think is where the value is. Taylor Stewart: It's make the most of, not make the most money. Yeah, yeah, like and I like I I Sam: Sure, right, yeah, right, right. Taylor Stewart: another thing I regurgitate all the is like an advisor's value comes from four places. Yes, hopefully more money through just better decisions, Sam: Yes, right. Taylor Stewart: everything. Can't measure it, hopefully. There's a a time savings piece for not having to do it all themselves. There's a peace of mind piece. That's probably the biggest one, knowing somebody's looking over it. and then there's like an education component. Like I'm gonna learn some stuff. And like everybody's gonna you the the money one you can't measure reliably today. Everybody's gonna value the other ones different. So it's I think that's like the beauty and the hard part of it is like there is no one clear meaning. Like you said your wife, well, kinda like your wife's a physical therapist, like that's pretty open-ended too. like just Sam: Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: there's not like a clear definition of what we're supposed to do. And so I Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: find like a lot of play where you know, this podcast about helping people become better planners. I think part of it is just Our first episode ever was like, what do you do with it for your clients? Because until you're clear on that, you're just gonna be floating around, do I need this, do I need that, what do I do, do I meet with them here? Like f Sam: Yep. Taylor Stewart: that's why for me, when I clarify, they're coming to me to know what to do next and understand their financial life. That's all they need. If that means meeting for one hour a year, great. I'm not gonna force anything else on them. And any tool I use is just to support that. If it doesn't support Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: that, then I don't need it. But I but the part that I can't quite crack is like, why did it take me Like it like seven or eight years to find that. Colin: Hmm. Taylor Stewart: So anything to Yeah, Sam: Perhaps an experience. Taylor Stewart: I I don't know. I think I mean maybe our training too, like you know, when did you do the CFP? Sam: I obtained mine over COVID. Yeah. Taylor Stewart: Okay. So like 'cause I've been practicing for like I did I just say him, been full time advisor for like five years before that. It's like, the textbook isn't reality and you gotta battle that and you know, just like it'd be great if it Sam: Right. Right. Right. Right. Taylor Stewart: works this way. I don't know, Colin, Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: you've come from the other direction. Like you you're obviously a smart guy, finance guy, but you got the CFP before you really started working with clients, right? Colin: I did, yeah. and I and I don't regret that 'cause I feel like I didn't have the you know, I had I had plenty of investment experience coming coming from the the kind of buy side background, but I had no tax experience, no you know, no idea what an estate plan includes or or any of the the the more complicated kind of insurance products or or anything. So for me I felt like I needed that basic framework and and yeah quickly you realize that it's not sufficient or that you know you you get you get all the assumptions perfectly laid out for you when you're trying to answer a problem on a CFP exam and and in reality you just don't get to know all of those data points and so you're working with a whole lot more uncertainty and you're working with actual people. so Sam: And Taylor Stewart: Sam doesn't like that part. Just give me the facts, Sam: Hmm. Taylor Stewart: man. Sam: Yep. Colin: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: okay. The other post, this is one I want to talk about. You said it was like yesterday about one of the most dangerous questions an advisor can ask is let's see what the software says. Software doesn't know your client, Sam: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Taylor Stewart: basically, it it calculates the advisor's job is judgment, the software's job is math. Man, do I have thoughts on this? Where like the software is not your product. It is a tool to get you to whatever you've defined as your job. What are your thoughts on where are we going with that post and and want Sam: Yeah, I had Taylor Stewart: to hear some more? Sam: I had a mentor instill that in me pretty early. I mean, I I grew up in the industry doing like pen and paper plans in front of the client. Just they wanted to know if they could retire. I could tell them that to get the assets rolled over. Like that's what it all came down to. There wasn't really any software involved. The only time we would bring software in is if we were like working with an engineer and they're like, I need to see this fully baked out. and it was on advisus. I don't know if you've ever heard of advisis before. It's like super throwback, but Taylor Stewart: Yeah, then it's Colin: Mm mm. Taylor Stewart: still around. Yeah. Sam: Yeah. but anyway, yeah, I then I had a mentor that you know I I we would watch recordings and I I was constantly saying that like well the software says the software says well you know always inserting the software and it's like well no you're saying so that was always like he just kind of beat that out of me, like you're you are saying it. Whether whether the software came up with a calc or not, like you're sitting here looking at it and you are saying it. And so that also mostly what it does is undermine your value as the advisor. So like why why would you give the value of this thing, this correct conclusion, why would you give it to a software, not yourself? Taylor Stewart: Yeah, if somebody asks a question you go, well and you gotta pause and click and wait for it to recalculate, like it's an awkward moment. Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: Like so okay, I I don't wanna lead this too much, but like do you you could could you build a plan with no software? Like could you just sit down with a client on a blank piece of paper and build a plan? Sam: Yeah, I and this is like totally arrogant in the way that I'm saying it, and I don't mean it to be. I was just thinking about this earlier today. I'm at the point where I can look so long as the data is laid out in front of me, I can just look at the data and know the answer. It's just the way it is. but yeah. Taylor Stewart: That that that's why sorry, go on. Colin: No, I gonna say I th I think that's the the hallmark of a more experienced advisor is is that you've you've seen enough instances you've seen enough examples, you kinda know how the math is gonna shake out. you Sam: Mm-hmm. Colin: run enough of these simulations or or calculations. I mean I still come back to the like the calculator on my desk to answer a lot of questions Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Colin: for the client, you know. And Sam: Mm-hmm. Colin: and You know, you you you can answer those questions with as long as you have the the the full information, or at least a good outline of of it. You know, I know about how much is in their retirement accounts and about how much Sam: Right. Colin: is in you know, about how much they make per year. I don't need the down to the dollar. but you can you can pretty quickly know like, yeah, this works or no, that doesn't work. Sam: Which by the Taylor Stewart: no. Sam: way is is a great example of why the planning part is not all that valuable. 'Cause if you can I've been doing it for eight years, Taylor, you've been doing it for it sounds like about a decade at this point. Con, I'm not sure about you, but like to have that mastered to that degree within a decade is, you know Taylor Stewart: Yeah, but and and I wanna be fair to people, it does take time. Like I th that's another one of those it just Sam: For sure. Taylor Stewart: took reps and like I think like you know I I basically don't use projections at all, but not because like for different reasons of like it doesn't tell me anything new. Of if I do this, like if you spend less, you're gonna need less in retirement. You know, like th there's relationships and but like it took a lot of reps to see how all those numbers played together. Sam: Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: So again, I I I don't I we do have a lot of like earlier planners listening to the podcast. I want them to feel like hopeless now because like, you know, like because Sam: Ha ha ha. Colin: Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: there is a place for like, what if you don't have that mastery? Like it doesn't mean you're like, what Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: do those folks do? And so I mean, I honestly like that's one of those I I kind of think the answer is just you gotta practice it and and test Sam: Yes. Taylor Stewart: the relationships and get familiar if this does that and understand why. And I do think this is an advantage of like. Coming from an accounting Excel background, like modeling, building building these models myself, you see intimately how all the variables relate because you had to draw those calculations. And so you can just internalize exactly what's going on. You're like, okay, yeah, if I tweak that, you know, this goes down, that goes up, type of relationship to understand it to where, yeah, you'll get to the point where you can just see the base facts and you don't need that to do it. When when when might you need software? Or like the calculation side, or like the projection side of software. Sam: Yeah, that's a good question. I'm gonna contradict what I just said, but like always, right? Because it's al it's one thing for me to look at something and be comfortable with it. It's another thing for a client too. And you always have to be able to show work just the way it is. until the client until you have a certain amount of trust with the client and then you know, they usually'll just Not just go along with what you say, but trust you enough that you're giving the right answer. particularly complex, and this is me, like this is a weak spot I think for me as a planner. But like anytime I'm dealing with multiple business entities for like an entrepreneur where you've got employees and like complex ownership structures, like that is where I need to see things mapped out. I I just have to. I'm not I don't have as many reps there as other people might. Taylor Stewart: Yeah, I mean I think that's sort of like what are you asking the software to do? Like aggregate facts, store them reliably, create presentation services. That completely. Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: But I think that's not like how a lot of people think of a planning software. They're expecting it to Sam: No. Taylor Stewart: calculate how much money I'll have when I die, or what are the chances that I do? So Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: let's go there. How do you feel about like it's it's a hot topic, the probability of success. Sam: yeah, sure. No, I I think all and I don't know if you saw my comment on Jarvis's post or his comment or whatever, but like I I think calling like people who use guardrails, some people don't like that, some people don't like Monte Carlo, like whatever your true Taylor Stewart: Colin loves guardrails. Sam: ma max retirement spending, I worked for a firm that was in eMoney, that was their true north. Like they all s all projection tools suck. for making for like for saying like hey, you know or like I made a post about a nickelback meme about like Roth conversion projections. Like deciding deciding what you're going to convert in a as a dollar month today based on something twenty years from now is like I've done so many holista Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: plans and plans within Hazel, it's like you ran yourself into like a thirty percent effective rate torpedo, you thought you were converting at whatever, twenty-two percent, Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: and now the arbitrage on the bracket, like it's you you jal or a third of the conversion was pointless. You just lost money on it because you're going off from what income lab said to do in twenty years. So I you know, they all suck so long if you Colin: Yeah. Sam: don't keep if you don't keep the if you don't keep the limitations in mind. Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. Sam: Right, like if you're not I love Monte Carlo though. Like I I love it because people can see the the trade-off. It it's like it could just be a phantom Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: number, but they can see the impact of their decision or lack thereof. Like that's why I like it. Taylor Stewart: Okay, we were gonna try to find something we disagreed with. We still haven't found it yet. But like because like Sam: Yeah, yeah, right. Taylor Stewart: I actually like look, Monte Carlo analysis is one of the greatest planning Sam: Yes. Taylor Stewart: tools available. Like look at the like casinos are built on it. Like the stuff works. It's all about how it's presented and like comparing Sam: Right. Right. Taylor Stewart: the trade-offs and just it just like forget the actual like chance of success. It gives you like a standardized metric Sam: Yes. Taylor Stewart: to compare scenarios against. That's freaking great. Under the constraints Sam: That's it. Yeah. Taylor Stewart: of these variables that are going to be wrong. And so, like, I I'm not anti projections. I'm not anti Monte Carlo. I just don't love to anchor on them. Like I call like Cradora myself, it's non probability or non-projection based planning. We still project. We're just not gonna sit there and meet and go, here's how much money you might have when you die, because it's a made up number. It's insane. And so like Sam: Right. Right. Taylor Stewart: I don't care. And even like like yeah, like it's fine for a conversational piece because like some clients don't Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: know. Like, did you know if you save this and invest it grows? Like, that's fine. But that's not a plan. If things go this way, this is what it look like. I don't know, like it's all about what do need to do today? That's what it gets down to. For me. So Colin, you want to defend your guardrails? Sam: We we've been rambling on, I'm waiting for Colin. Colin: I'll I I'll defend my guardrails. Yeah. No, but I it i it I think what I like about it is how it communicates. It's Sam: Yeah. Colin: it's it's not that I think the probability of success is is the true north and or we're we're targeting a plan that's going to to make sure that you're safe and and it it's it's how it communicates. Like here's what I think you can spend, here's the two, you know, levels at which I think we might wanna make a change. It's not written in in stone it and it gives people a sense of okay like this number that he's giving me as a spending capacity is not just pulled out of thin air and I know exactly when I'm gonna need to change it. That's something that the probability of success doesn't communicate, that I think guard well guardrails does communicate well. But I mean the way that I actually use it in practice i is so much about like that initial plan in in you know somebody wants to retire and and can we do it? do we have enough save? What what's it gonna look like? And and it's a good framework to get them over that initial hump. Once like once we've done that and and they start living their life and and taking distributions, I I i I rarely end up going back to the guardrails. I mean, maybe if there's a a big market correction and people are worried, we'll we'll r run the numbers again and and say, No, look, you're fine. Or actually as part of that initial like planning we'll look at you know, this is something I think Income Lab does well is is like let's look at it through the Great Depression and like how would this plan have worked through then? That gives clients a lot of like confidence that okay, like this number is still reasonably conservative and I can see where like I would have needed to make a change and okay that change wasn't like so big. or you can illustrate pretty quickly to a client, like, this this amount you you were planning to spend or you were trying to buy that second vacation home. Here's what happens when you know a a a correction comes. Like the plan clearly does not work. So but but it all comes back to like this is what illustr th it's used as a tool to illustrate these principles to the client. And and so it's only as good as its ability to communicate. It's not like what does I'm doing I'm gonna do whatever the plan tells me to do or the software tells me to do. Sam: That's a great that's a great point too that you can also make an argument for Monte Carlo is like that mentor of mine what he trained me on is like I was so used to taking and fielding market volatility questions with you know, like economics and and legislation and like well, what's happening, right? Why is this happening? And he retrained me to, well, let's look at the plan and does it affect you in the totality of the plan and many times the answer is no. So we don't care. and I think guardrails probably does it even better. Taylor Stewart: I was gonna pull up a different post. I'm not gonna call anybody out, but this is in the XYPN group, complaining about the guardrails moving in in Income Lab. And he's like, he said, the appeal, the the appeal is the certainty that you give clients. It says when your portfolio hits X dollars, we'll increase or decrease, but then it ends up changing. And I don't like that basically. It's like, sorry to call that guy out, but like that's you know your job's not certainty. It's not actually that number. You know what I mean? It's Sam: Right. Right. Colin: Hmm. Taylor Stewart: the concept of it. It's the concept of it, which Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: is great at that. Guardrails makes sense for that initial conversation. I think you could also just draw it out and be like, so if you know, roughly if it goes down a lot, you're not gonna cut your spinning in half, or like the zero will just make adjustments. Like that's essentially what guardrails is saying. But yeah, there is still that the explanatory piece I think is fantastic. And that's where that's what I think I like certain softwares for. Side from like managing the data is like is those like visualization tools. Like those are things that are really, really, really nice. Colin: Yeah, and the software makes delivering that visualization faster and and cleaner. You know, I'm not I'm not producing a chart in Excel, which which I used to do and I know you used to do as well, but you know, Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Colin: that a good software like actually it saves you time and so Taylor Stewart: Hopefully, yeah. speaking of software, Sam, you are kind of the jack of all trades on the well, no, you're you're a master of many trades on those. You're kinda like the Sam: Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: guy people go to. Like what would you like Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: claim ex what tools would you claim that you know inside and out? Or like what are your what are your go to's? I'm not trying to put you on the spot like that. Like just what are the tools that you use Sam: Yeah, so like Taylor Stewart: typically? Sam: what I I don't I haven't set like a minimum hours or plans requirements. Just in in my mind right now, if I had a new advisor that came to me and said, Hey, can you build a plan on this? It's like, yeah, on the spot. Super easy. EMoney, Money Guide Pro, Right Capital. sadly I can't add Cardora to that yet. Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: Hol Holista plan. that those are I mean those are like the big three and then you know Trayacto is a big one. gotcha nomina blank. But I've got so I've got my password saver and I probably have over 70 software in there across all of my Taylor Stewart: Cheers. Sam: advisors. So it's like it to this it's more like the plasticity of being able to learn something new. so I just actually right before this pod I interviewed another firm and he built he's had his own software build for Equity Comp. And it's like I'm excited to dig into it and see what he has. Taylor Stewart: Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Sam: he might be sitting on the next great thing for the market. Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: so if you ask me like what my favorite is, I don't know anymore. Taylor Stewart: Well, this so I I mean I I used a couple different ones and then of the big ones used what was the order? Right capital like nine years ago when it was Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: simple. then eMoney, then money guide. And then later when it Sam: Income lab in there. Taylor Stewart: and well then later on when I s when I started my new firm, it was back elements, right capital, income lab. so I I and like I have thoughts on all of those. Like it they're incredible calculators. It doesn't suit the type of planning that I do personally. That's all I'll ever say. I because I don't know what to do with them. That was that was my biggest thing. It was just I like you could you can pull it out of it. If you want to, but like Sam: Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: that to me, it's just like this is it it didn't fit my planning. I'm not knocking it at all. It can do a ton of stuff, but it just I didn't need all the stuff that Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: it did. as far as like I mean it's interesting, it's interesting to see how much they change. Like eMoney, Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: at least back when I used it, was by far the most powerful and also like the most impossible to navigate and use. eMoney or Money Guide Pro was really, really cool. I actually really enjoyed that at the time. And then Right Capital is You know, it's funny it's interesting to watch them go from the lightweight, easy to use one to now people complaining about how hard it is, but I still think they do a a great job. Sam: Well, I think you're getting at to like I hadn't thought about this before you just mentioned that, but why I'm why I believe so much in the advisor and not the tool is because now I've seen every make of firm using every different tech stack drive positive client outcomes. And so Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Sam: i it it can't come down to the software. It can't, because otherwise that wouldn't be true. So that's why, you know, when people are pushing me to reach out to you when we met some months back, it's like, okay, whatever whatever makes the plan come together faster and eliminates that so the advisor can just drive the outcome is probably gonna be the tool you wanna use. You tagline that Colin: Yeah, I th Sam: too if you'd like. No Taylor Stewart: That's good. That was good. Colin: Yeah, that's I mean, that's such an interesting point. The the number of advisors that you've worked with having all different software, different processes and they can all be successful. I think particularly new advisors get get and I know I did, you get you get bogged down and okay, well what's my tech stack, what are my tools and instead of like, what Sam: Yeah. Colin: am I actually providing to clients and what what do they want from me? that's that's a that's a really key insight that that took me a long time to realize. Taylor Stewart: and and you yeah and y you pointed out that everybody's been successful despite the d like I think they'd be just as successful without it in a lot of ways. Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: unless you've taken the time to standardize I well one thing I just an observation I've made over the years that I want to get your thoughts on. I I clearly don't optimize Screwedora for sales. That's not my goal. But if I wanted to, there's a very clear blueprint on the types of platforms that succeed. Do this, get that. And you don't necessarily need to know what's going on. Colin, are those the cops coming for you back there? It's g it's gonna get fil it's gonna get filtered out on the episode, but the SWAT Colin: They're coming for me. They're coming for me. Sam: Ha ha. Yeah. Taylor Stewart: team was coming for Colin, it sounded like. but but Colin: S E C's coming. Taylor Stewart: like if you look at the most c popular and I think this is very telling for what advisors want. Like it's if you do this, you get that, you don't really have to think. Like, and just okay, Hallista Plan, you upload a tax return, you get a tax report. That's not the full capabilities of Halista Plan, but it makes you look smart. Income lab, populate a plan, show this guardrails. You don't to know what's going on. Nitrogen, upload or send a questionnaire and add holdings, get this risk score. Elements scorecard. Like those are the tools that fly because I think what are we coming? And why why did what do people get frustrated with? The tools that don't have the clear outcome. EMoney's hard to use. Right, Cal. Why? Because you kind of gotta know what you want to get out of it. It's a platform for you, but that's frustrating. But like the popular tools are like, do this, get that. I don't have to think. Sam: Yeah, that's an excellent point. Taylor Stewart: yeah, segue for that. Sam: It you get free marketing out of that too. I think a lot of what causes angst and consternation for advisors and not feeling adequate in what they're doing is by paying attention to what their peers are doing. And I think when people I remember when Holista Plan really started taking over and and Debbie were Debbie was running her or they had Debbie running those webinars and it's like everybody's like, Well This guy's doing holistic planning, these reports look awesome. Like I have to do the same thing. A lot of times now, like when people come to me this time of year for tax planning, the the narrative is like, I got this a few years ago, I'm not I don't know how to use it. And so like you're exactly right. There's like a huge portion of their market where advisors aren't really using the tool to its full extent. Taylor Stewart: Well yeah, but to be fair to Holistic Plan, I think it's an incredible tool when you actually use it for everything it's capable of, like what Colin does Sam: Correct. Taylor Stewart: and some other like they they've got some some things around the tax report that's amazing. And and that's any software. And like you can't have a software that's like truly powerful that you don't need to spend any time learning. Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: But people don't if they can't figure it out I don't wanna watch this hour thing. It's just like you've got to invest it. It's a tool like so go ahead. Sam: But shameless plug, they don't have to. They can reach out to me and I can do all your tax planning for you. Taylor Stewart: There you that's that's that's a whole nother thing. Yeah, I actually love that. Sam: Ha ha ha. Taylor Stewart: are you okay to talk about one more thing? Or we didn't really start okay. Sam: Absolutely, yeah. I've got a little time. Taylor Stewart: okay, so we be revised. You didn't mention it in your list, but I'm I'm gonna call it out because I mentioned people are drawn to do this, get that, don't have to think too hard in the middle of that. Hazel just launched from Sam: Yep. Yeah. Taylor Stewart: Altruist. I don't view them as a competitor, I'm a big fan of Hazel and Altruist team. I couldn't stand V1 of their financial planning implementation. They get was a slap in the face of the profession saying, like, link this stuff, a plan gets generated. Sam: Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: That's freaking insane to me. Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: You've pointed out, I've actually learned from you that there's a lot more to it than that. But Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: what are your general thoughts on like it doesn't have to be Hazel specifically, but just if you want to respond to anything I say, because I know you've been involved with it for a while, but then just Sam: Absolutely. Taylor Stewart: That and then kind of where we're going with the the AI direction. Sam: Yeah, I think this conversation has like perfectly set up the backdrop for the answer, which is like everything else AI related, it supercharges whatever you're currently doing. So if you're a Barracuda and you just see flashy things in the water and you go and you chase and you try and bite it and you never check the output or anything like that. And you just let the tool do it. Just like with throwing something into income lab and it gives you the guardrails and you don't understand it. Like that's gonna be a big problem. Only instead of just a guardrail, Hazel's developing like every possible facet of financial planning you can think of, like it's gonna throw a really nice report together. And so if you're not doing the job of like they've got their intelligent client profiles, like if you're not building those out, making sure those are accurate, updating them as you have conversations with the clients, not guiding the output of the plan, not reviewing the documents that are going into them, if you're fully trying to automate the whole thing, it's just not gonna work well. where I've seen so I've I probably have I gotta think close to 20 plans run through there for a few different advisors and I always try just like I did with their tax planning tool. So I you know I didn't fully trust the tax planning tool when it came out and it I had to trust it by duplicating plans and I'm doing the same thing with financial planning. I time because my time is money. That's one of the ways that I have built is hourly. So I want to see like, you know, hey can I transition advisors to this and charge a a flat fee and expand my margin. it's a different conversation. You know, so far it is a time savings. I can't I don't have a big enough data set to tell you how much yet. But the process is very similar. It's like I come to it with a conclusion, I tee it up with that, I check the data, check the math. What gets eliminated is the rote work of like, you know, client has four rentals and there's a different insurance provider for all four. Okay, I'm reading through four different statements to find the information that I want and they all look different. That kind of stuff is just gone. Taylor Stewart: Uh-huh. Sam: with AI. But if you like you said, if you rely on it just to dump information in it and trust whatever it spits out, it's not gonna be a good time. Taylor Stewart: That's that's a that is perfectly encapsulated for AI in general. Like Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: complete accelerant if you know what you're doing, complete time waster because it'll make you feel like you're being productive if you don't. and so yeah, I mean I I think that's just the takeaway. If you if you were still willing to think, it's incredible what you can do. Like Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: like I yeah. I don't know. Colin: And and in that sense it's Sam: I think Colin: no different than any other software improvement in this industry. Is Sam: Right. Colin: it you you know, just having the planning software in the first place, the Monte Carlo analysis, it saves some time in doing these calculations. But if you didn't understand the calculations that were Sam: Correct. Colin: going on under the Like you're in trouble when you get in front of a client and can't explain, you know, or answer their questions because you don't understand how it works. And so if you're somebody that thinks, well, I'm just gonna throw all this stuff into the AI and I'm gonna get a polished, finished plan, you know, just wait till you have that client that that asks a question that you really can't answer or or a a situation that you didn't you know, foresee y you're gonna be in trouble. Taylor Stewart: Will you say something? Sam: But I I think, Taylor, when you and I were going back and forth in comments, I think we were saying the same thing, which is like, well a plan can't just be a stack of documents and some notes. Like at the end Taylor Stewart: Oi. Sam: of the day it is, but what you do with that, like, you know Taylor Stewart: Yeah, so because what I said is like basically the messaging that I did agree, I said basically like whoever come up with the idea that all you have to do is connect notes, documents, and emails and Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: spits out a plan has never built one before. And and Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: then you kind of said, well that's kind of all it is. It's like Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: then we went back and forth basically like you can summarize and you can create charts and graphs, Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: but the plan is the action. And what I'll come back to is like I I I mean, I think AI could build could absolutely replace us, but the problem is there are trade-offs and priorities and decisions you have to make. Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: Unless that's perfectly captured, which the the out on the AI thing is like if it's in a transcript in theory, it is captured. Like those are the things you have to decisions you have to make. Those that have to be to build a true plan. You can pull Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: out facts, fine. but but some that's just coming to my mind is like, and I I can speak to this pretty intimately of like building an AI-enhanced planning tool. So much of what AI does is just soft can just be software. Like Sam: Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: We were building this like investment op optimizer thing. We ended up just writing the code for it. Which is just software. It's not it's not AI. Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: And that's all that's is like a like when you say like AI builds the plan, it's like it it makes the extraction piece and the populating and the moving data around but like I don't know, like it it's it's Colin, your point is what made me think of that. That like it's no different than like you dump the information in and the calculation runs. Is it AI? Is it software? Where's the line? I mean it's like so like Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: You know, I mean, I don't know. I know where I was going with that. yeah. Sam: Well t the only thing I add or or maybe disagree with you with, y you I definitely see you as a competitor to Hazel, which you've built with Kerdora, Ker Dora, I feel like I keep saying it wrong. Is it Kerr or Kerr? Ker Dora. Taylor Stewart: Ker Dora. Yeah, is your fine? Kerr. Yeah, yeah. Sam: but it's in a it's like a blue ocean competition. Like really there's so much space and market that at the end of the day the only thing that is true is that these legacy softwares, and I firmly believe this, i they're trying to adapt and it's not working well. so I you you don't want to crap on your competitors, I will. just that Colin: Ha ha ha. Sam: the tools the tools are good, right? Like of the legacy software, I think Hallista Plan is the best because they are so niched in what they do in their charts are so unlike what anybody else has. love it. The the the core three or four are are going to go away within the next Two decades if they don't become AI native and rebuild, in my opinion. Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Well, okay, so part of why I don't think of competitors is like I I do not subscribe to this camp that you need to have one planning software either. Sam: No. Taylor Stewart: That doesn't make sense to me. It's like people like, I don't want to have a plan a software for accumulators and retirees like why not? Why? Like they you can't Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: optimize for do you want the best of both or like a a half a b like why? And okay, maybe in the past like it's administratively a bit annoying to have that double entry. Dude, that's gone now. So like it now more than ever, I think like The need for an all-in-one planning tool is gone. Like I I work seamlessly now with Cordora and Income Lab through AI. Why not? Because I Cordora doesn't do what Income Lab does. If I ever need to run that. And so that's why I like what is Hazel a competitor? Not the version of planning that I saw. It's not like it's just a built for a different purpose and surface. Like i I Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: didn't mean to rhyme there, but like, that's why I like, is it competitor? I I don't know. Like, Colin: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: I don't think so. I just don't. Like. It's like the advisory is gonna be drawn and that's not gonna be drawn to Cordora today. Who knows what comes up later on? so I don't know. And I that's it's kind of an inside comment here. Like I I came into this all hopeful, like, hey, well I'll get along playing software's Nope. There's some stuff that's Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: happening that I'm not gonna say right now. I'm like, Well, I thought we were friends, but never mind. Apparently we are competitors, so well Sam: Well that's how you know whatever you're doing is working though competitively. So that's a good sign. Taylor Stewart: Yeah, I guess, but I don't know. I don't have to bring this like I think I probably takeaway. We've said a lot here that like you don't need software, but it does make your life easier. Gotta put it in its box Sam: Yes. Taylor Stewart: for what it is. It's your tool to get stuff out. I think we we kind of left like I wanna make sure hope we didn't leave like newer newer to the profession people feeling like, well, how do I ever get to this point? You know? any yeah. Sam: Right. my my that's what I wanted to close with, like my last thoughts is for the younger professional, I wouldn't change anything about my experience or how it's gone. And there's been a lot of bumps and bruises and good reps and bad reps and like a ton of hard work. just whatever your firm or you are currently using again just get as many plans to that thing as possible because your experience there like what's helped me you know I've only been running lever for a year and a half now and I I had probably half the software knowledge I do now. What's allowed me to really expand and be a tool for everybody is transposing putting everything within context. Like I had the most reps in right capital. So when I had to work for an e-money firm for the first time it's like this is that thing over here. so just learn one super well and it'll take you really far. Taylor Stewart: I would give if we're gonna if we're gonna end with like a tip type of thing, try to recreate Sam: Yeah. Taylor Stewart: whatever recalculate whatever you see on the screen. Sam: Right. Taylor Stewart: I can't recommend that enough. That's how I learned like the details of Sam: Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: it there. Colin, anything you would say? Colin: No, think that's a great point. Yeah. If you if you can't build the you know, I'm not saying doing Monte Carlo analysis in Excel, but if you can't do some basic Yeah, actually that's that's that's probably true. Taylor Stewart: But it's not hard to do actually. Yeah, I mean yeah. Colin: But if you can't build a basic spreadsheet on on your own and some some basic, you know, present value, future value, calculations, time value of money, like that's that you gotta start there. Like you gotta get the basics Taylor Stewart: Well Colin: down and those basics carry to every software or or domain. That's how you develop that kind of intuition about, yeah, this'll work, or no, that's not gonna work. Yeah. Taylor Stewart: But to be fair, you don't you don't have to, because you could have Sam do it. Colin: Yeah. Sam: Very good point. Taylor Stewart: Right? I mean that's you I that I want that's not like it's just no, but like I mean I I'm catching myself on that. I have like I'm I'm being honest, like you don't have to know it inside and out, but make sure somebody did when the plane was built. is that a fair way to put it? Sam: Correct. Colin: Hmm. Sam: That is a very fair way to put it, yes. Taylor Stewart: Yeah. Nice. Sam how you got yeah. Colin: So so somebody that that's I was gonna say d w one last thing or or question for you, Sam, is like somebody that's getting to this stage. I mean, I I have my own experience as a solo advisor and then realizing I need help or and so I've I've I have a paraplanner slash CSA now. How how do you w what have you seen work well for somebody that's like looking to scale beyond themselves or to add whether it's someone like you, an outsourced paraplanner or or a junior person to start sharing that that load with, kind of what what would you say to that person? Sam: take be very clear. Don't rush into it with here's a pile of work I don't want to do and I need to find somebody to do it. Don't do that. Be very clear about what the role is. Be very clear about what your core values are and who you're looking for qualitatively before anything else. The most success I've had in hiring is I got tired of all the fake people. I filtered by, hey, do you have fast food experience? And I found Colin: Hmm. Sam: that the best employee I've I've ever had. So hire for qualitative, find somebody that wants to work and then compensate them very, very well. Probably to the point where it makes you uncomfortable. Just like every other investment or risk that you've taken in your business. You have to do it above and beyond anything else with people. And I think the thing that we're getting wrong in the industry is we're finding we're we're creating jobs nobody wants to do, which is basically scrubbing toilets and we're paying them pennies to do it. And then we get surprised when they leave. you know, and build this position as something that this is for the long term. It's not just a stepping stone for you to to either build your own book or go somewhere else. Like I want you to be here and I want to compensate you well. That would be my my tip to somebody looking for help. Colin: That's great. Taylor Stewart: If they want to find you, how do they do it? Sam: the you can go to leverplanning dot dot com and that's lever is spelled with one E L E V R planning dot com. And I would actually extend outside of the advisors that want my help for work, I would extend it also to like mid career professionals that are in my seat that maybe feel like me. So I've Taylor Stewart: Hmm. Sam: I've i i I've built the infrastructure to have like a franchisee model. There's another advisor that's working on a platform. She completely does her own thing and I just feed her referrals that I can't or don't really want to work with. So like there's plenty to go around. Don't go start your own thing. Like just I will tell you exactly how to do this if you want. So I'll extend an invitation here too. Taylor Stewart: That's awesome. Well, that's great. I I know you're not alone. There's a lot of people who are I think would be intrigued by that. So awesome Sam: Punks. Mm-hmm. Taylor Stewart: man. Well this is awesome. Thank you so much for coming. Coming on. Sam: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Colin: Yeah, thanks for coming on too. Taylor Stewart: Of course. All right. Colin, see you next time. Colin: See you next time.