Latest / Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement / #003- "Heavy on the Reid"

Transcript

#003- "Heavy on the Reid" · Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement

0:23
SPEAKER_03: We have an absolute uh important guest with me today.
0:28
SPEAKER_03: VIP.
0:29
SPEAKER_03: VIP.
0:31
SPEAKER_03: He is a great friend of mine, a mentor, and uh awesome, awesome, awesome guy.
0:38
SPEAKER_03: Harrison County District Attorney William Reed McCain.
0:42
SPEAKER_03: Reed?
0:43
SPEAKER_01: Heavy on the read.
0:44
SPEAKER_03: Heavy on the read.
0:46
SPEAKER_03: Mentor.
0:46
SPEAKER_03: Mentor.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: So you're responsible for this guy?
0:50
SPEAKER_03: I'm not.
0:50
SPEAKER_03: No.
0:51
SPEAKER_03: No, he's responsible for this.
0:52
SPEAKER_03: He is responsible for for for me to some extent.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: Just the good stuff.
0:57
SPEAKER_03: Reed, like I said, is the elected uh Harrison County District Attorney, uh, former cop.
1:04
SPEAKER_03: He you used to or actually started uh, let's see, 19.
1:08
SPEAKER_03: Well the hell, just introduce yourself.
1:09
SPEAKER_03: Let's just talk about that.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
1:11
SPEAKER_03: In 94, you worked at uh Jones County Sheriff's Office and then moved to Marshall work at Marshall Team.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: In 94, um, I uh went to the Gus George Law Enforcement Academy in Fort Mean County and um was actually gonna go to work there.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: They were building a new jail.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there was uh Jones County Sheriff's Office was hiring out in West Tech, West Central Texas.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: Abilene Anson went to work out there.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:36
SPEAKER_03: You had no family up there, you just decided to pack your stuff up and go to Jones County.
1:40
SPEAKER_03: Is that no kidding?
1:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I never knew that.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: That's back before, of course, cell phones and all that stuff and GPS.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, went to work out, actually went to work there.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Um they hired me straight on as an investigator on an auto swift task force.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: Um did work some patrol too, but anyway, I spent two years out there in uh uh Jones County and then went to Marshall PD, which is where my wife was from at the time.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: Love Northeast Texas, grew up in southeast Texas, so like the trees.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: And anyway, went to work for Marshall, did the standard field training program, was a patrolman, FTO, went to uh CID, worked financial crimes.
2:20
SPEAKER_03: And you're a crime scene guy, so you've got excuse me.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: Then I went to crime scene after financial crimes, then patrol sergeant, so back to patrol, and then went back as patrol over crime scene and then lieutenant before I left to go to law school.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: That's awesome.
2:34
SPEAKER_03: That's awesome.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: And it's it's unique.
2:37
SPEAKER_02: A lot of guys jump around agencies within 10 miles of each other.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: You've covered Southeast Texas and Northwest and Northeast.
2:44
SPEAKER_03: Oh man, and and and he's from he's actually from me and my wife's vacation spot of Port Bolivar, and and we've shared a lot of stories about Bolivar.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: And R Reed's got a lot of funny ones.
2:53
SPEAKER_03: Some are personal that we probably won't say on the on air, but um he grew up on the island.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: I mean, literally, Port Bolivar's high school, uh well, a high island school.
3:03
SPEAKER_03: It's not well, it's an elementary, middle school, and high school wrapped up in the one.
3:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
3:07
SPEAKER_03: Uh oh, it's cool.
3:08
SPEAKER_03: Well, that's the last night.
3:08
SPEAKER_03: Listen to this.
3:09
SPEAKER_03: So last night he was telling me a story.
3:10
SPEAKER_03: Tell him a story about the hurricane.
3:11
SPEAKER_03: They're practicing outside, and this hurricane's fixing to blow in.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Oh, when Alicia came through.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, so I mean, we had TV in the 80s, of course.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't, you know, there wasn't the internet and apps and all that stuff.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: But we knew the hurricane was coming in.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: And we're out on the field practicing.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: Why the hurricane's coming in?
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's getting dark and windy.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: Coaches are keeping us out there.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: Run it again, run it again.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: And finally they let us go.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: And I get home, my dad's having a fit, and it wasn't my fault.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: And then anyway, we we finally loaded up the old hoopty truck we had and um couldn't take the ferry off of the off Bolivar because they closed it down, so we were headed back to go through Highland Winnie, but that's back when they had rollover pass.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And anyway, hell the water was blowing up over the bridge.
4:00
SPEAKER_03: It's a great crazy story.
4:01
SPEAKER_03: But you got a good practice in.
4:03
SPEAKER_03: You got a great practice in.
4:04
SPEAKER_03: Did you guys win that year?
4:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh we went to regionals.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh, geez.
4:09
SPEAKER_03: So it paid off.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
4:11
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
4:12
SPEAKER_03: So again, I am I am on all jokes aside, I really am honored that you came down.
4:19
SPEAKER_03: Uh, you are a good friend of mine, you are a good friend of law enforcement, and uh you and I work well together right there in East Texas.
4:25
SPEAKER_03: Uh having a cop, uh a former cop, that's that's now a sitting district attorney, um, I see the huge benefit of it.
4:32
SPEAKER_03: That was gonna be my first question is is that common?
4:35
SPEAKER_02: I've never heard I haven't either.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: Is that common?
4:39
SPEAKER_01: I I know of a few, well, let's see.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Um that became the DA.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: I guess I just know one.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, there are a lot of cops go to law school and become prosecutors because yeah, you know, they're used to that side.
4:53
SPEAKER_03: Well, but but but the uniqueness of that is that they get pissed off at their discretion and think that they can do a better job, then they go to law school and and then they're not, but they're not Reed.
5:01
SPEAKER_03: They're not Reed McCain.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: No.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: It's the the funny thing is I didn't even want to, when I went to law school, I was done with criminal justice.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I didn't want to do it anymore.
5:10
SPEAKER_03: You did mention that.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: And um what I wanted to do is go to work for and my exposure was limited at the time.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: The only thing I knew about was um from Marshall PD.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: There was a there was a pretty strong-ish Cleat presence in northeast Texas.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: And so I didn't I didn't know about TMPA, but I knew about Cleat, and that's what I thought I wanted to do was come back and represent officers.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: And work for a yeah, in fact, I interviewed with them twice.
5:40
SPEAKER_03: We're thankful you didn't get the job.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I you know, I learned about TMPA coming back.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: And um, anyway, that's what I was I was hell bent on doing that.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: And I got a I got a call from the Harrison County DA then and offered me a job, and I said, Well, I don't want to be a prosecutor, but I'll do it until I find something.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: And um then I started there, went to Grade County and was at Grade County for almost seven years and just fell in love with prosecution.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And anyway, it's funny.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: I you know, they the the joke is if you want to watch God laugh, tell them what your plans are.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: Because I was done with it, but then next thing you know, I became DA.
6:17
SPEAKER_03: And you've been DA for this is your second, you're going into your second term or third term?
6:22
SPEAKER_01: January 1st will be the start of my second term.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: So if you were done with the criminal justice aspect of it, and you were just gonna use being a prosecutor as a as a holding, as a place card, what made you find your passion or your love for that role?
6:39
SPEAKER_02: What was it that caused that change?
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, so that's easy to answer.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, my old boss, Carl Dura, uh, he was the DA in Greg County for about 12 years.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: He was in that office for a total of about 32 years.
6:53
SPEAKER_03: Highly, highly, highly respected.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: He's really good.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: And um, but I went over there and that office was so professional, there was so much experience.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: Um we didn't lose prosecutors when I when I left there um to get sworn in as DA in Harrison County, I was the most junior felony prosecutor over there, and I'd been there seven years.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: And so you had prosecutors there 10, 15, 20 plus years.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: And anyway, it was just a great professional environment, and they were very pro-law enforcement, and I don't know, it just persuaded me, and over time I just decided that's what I want to do.
7:27
SPEAKER_02: So one one of the missions of this podcast is is we talk about it on uh a lot, is talking about leadership and mental health in our industry.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: You hit on something, you were completely done with the career field, got in a role and fell in love with it again.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: Would you say part of that was the environment created by the leader there that you got hired by that he he had a culture or an environment that hundred percent.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Um we had um, like I said, he was he was a career prosecutor, and that's what I was looking to be around, career prosecutors.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Um well, I thought if I was gonna do this for any length of time, that's who I wanted to surround myself with.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's what the whole office was.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: And we had a a chief prosecutor there who was married to a LPD officer, and I mean she was she was big gung ho into you know backing law enforcement, making better cases, working with them.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: And that was just the environment.
8:27
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: And for viewers that don't know, Greg County is Longview.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: And if you think Longview is a small, sleepy little town, you're gravely mistaken because Longview, Texas is hopping.
8:40
SPEAKER_03: It is, and so shout out to Longview PD and Greg County, uh SO and and those guys that were there, they do a phenomenal job.
8:46
SPEAKER_03: Very, very both professional organizations.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: I would imagine as a prosecutor in Greg County, you get the opportunity to prosecute a whole lot of interesting cases because Longview is hopping.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure you got to sink your teeth into a bunch of goods.
8:58
SPEAKER_03: Because Greg County includes uh Kilgore, it includes uh wide owners Bladewater.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh Longview But also Longview's in Harrison County.
9:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:07
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
9:08
SPEAKER_03: There's a port there is a there is a sliver of it right there off of uh off the loop.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: And and so we do 10%, 15% of the population.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's the good part of Longview.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we're fortunate there.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh god.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: But no, one year here we go.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: Now one year we had when I was at Greg County, I think there were six officer-involved shootings.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Wow, five LPD and one Kilgore PD.
9:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's crazy.
9:32
SPEAKER_03: I remember that year.
9:34
SPEAKER_03: So, like I said, it and I being a former police officer, now a prosecutor, uh, it definitely gives you a better understanding and a better way to look at a case because you're looking at you know from a cop's point of view.
9:47
SPEAKER_03: Um so what's your perception of how cops currently view district attorneys uh or their office and how do we fix that perception?
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I think a lot of officers today are golly, I'm trying to they're guilty of the same thing I was guilty of.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: And that was really uh when I was a a police officer, especially a patrolman, I was just I was ignorant about really how that part of the criminal justice system worked.
10:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean I knew what my job was, right?
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Um I knew how to put together good cases, I knew how to make arrests, I knew how to meet elements.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, I didn't understand the prosecution aspect of it, and especially limited resources of the courts, limited resources of prosecutors, and well, a case in point would be uh and probably anybody listening has had the same scenario.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: So uh maybe you make a CT call and you get in the area, and then the guy you see him there on the parking lot, and he pulls off, and you go to light him up to investigate the CT, but then um you get him stopped and he bails out of the car, runs from you.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: Um searches pockets, he's got some Xanax, he's got some weed.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: And oh, by the way, he's DWI.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: And so you do your SFSTs, uh, get the blood, turns out he's a 0.20, whatever.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, me, when I was a patrolman, I expected all those things to be prosecuted.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: But what I didn't realize is there aren't enough courts, there's not enough time for all those.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: And so what we would look at, and what we do as prosecutors is we look at the most serious offenses and those offenses that can be enhanced.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: And so in that back pattern, I mean the DWI can be enhanced.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: It's a serious traffic offense, in my opinion.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: And then the evading, that can be enhanced.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: So those are gonna be the two cases I'm gonna go for.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: And the the weed, the Xanax, uh, DWLI, the CT, I don't care.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: I I really don't.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: Those other charges are used as incentives for defendants to plead.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I think bargaining chips.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: And for listeners, CT's criminal trespass.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I mean, so a lot of officers just don't understand exactly.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: They know that we're on their side, um, but they just they are a little bit they don't have the information about what it is exactly prosecutors do.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: And and we've probably, as prosecutors, have done a poor job at communicating that with our law enforcement.
12:25
SPEAKER_03: Well, but I think I think that you've done a great job uh because you you you you do meet with the departments uh within your county very often and you kind of explain like, look, guys, uh, because you had an issue in your county uh with probable cause affidavits.
12:39
SPEAKER_03: And and we and so uh we're horrible.
12:42
SPEAKER_03: And so how can you get pissed off or upset as a cop as that 22-year-old cop that's been out there one year?
12:47
SPEAKER_03: And and and let's be honest, we've all been there.
12:49
SPEAKER_03: We we you think that that you've been on the job for you know, you're a veteran.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: And and the reality is is that you're a two-year patrolman.
12:56
SPEAKER_03: And so you're not you're not a master of tra you're not a master of the trade, uh, and that you should constantly be trying to improve.
13:03
SPEAKER_03: And so you recognize that there needed to be an issue, uh, and you met with each department and said, Look, this is what is going on, and and that that county specifically had never uh not had that problem, but they had not had a prosecutor, a DA come in and say, Look, you know, these are things that we need to improve on, and and this is what I'm seeing uh through my office, and and this is what needs to happen.
13:24
SPEAKER_03: And so that's one way to fix it is is more DA's offices being um you know more like you and and you can't.
13:31
SPEAKER_03: Communicating.
13:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, ex absolutely communicating.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: I think we I think there's a lot of non-communicating interagency in some DA's offices now.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: And uh one of the things when I found out we were gonna get to have Yana as a guest is I started thirty years ago, and the law enforcement side and the district attorney's office side has two different roles, but we're on the same team for the same cause.
13:58
SPEAKER_02: And for years that was very clear, and it felt like we were on a same team.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: Not on the same team, but we were looking for the same mission to keep community safe and prosecute evildoers.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: And really because of social media, I think you guys often get lumped in like people do law enforcement.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, all cops are bad.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: Well, you saw one bad one on CNN, that doesn't mean we're all bad.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: And I think some of the large metropolitan areas with the activist DAs, that's all people see on uh social media, so they assume that uh the other 252 DAs in in Texas are just like uh Dallas County and uh Harris County's DA, which couldn't be any further from the truth.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we are definitely not an activist DA's office.
14:48
SPEAKER_02: But but I think at some point that relationship diverged, like in Dallas County.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm retired from Garland P.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: D.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: And at some point that relationship has kind of diverged where not only are they almost not allies, it's almost an adversarial relationship.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: And that's not in the best interest of the community, in the safety of the public, or in justice.
15:12
SPEAKER_02: It's not in the best interest of justice, and that's it's been fascinating.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: And so I was glad when we got to see you come on in your law enforcement background, and uh Tyler speaks so highly of you, which you know you gotta take Tyler.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: Easy, sure.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: Easy, easy.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: I've known him long enough.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: But man, I I I'm glad we have you on and get to cut up some of this because it's really fascinating where you go around the different parts of the state, and I think we're gonna hit on another topic in a minute, but things being done so differently.
15:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it's fascinating.
15:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, when I brag to people that I've got the best district attorney in Texas, I I don't I am serious.
15:46
SPEAKER_03: He's uh he's approachable, uh, he sings really good.
15:50
SPEAKER_03: Uh we try.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, I and I would also say that um so I know that I know prosecutors, we've fallen a little bit short um communicating with law enforcement, but at the same time, uh law enforcement needs to, I mean, come ask questions.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: And Tyler can tell you my office, uh, if if if somebody walks in the door with a badge and gun on, they don't wait in the lobby.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: My receptionist has a standing order, she buzzes them in.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, if all the prosecutors and investigators are busy, well, they can have a cup of coffee, uh, get a coke out of the fridge or something, and then when we get done with what we're doing, we'll talk to them.
16:27
SPEAKER_03: He's got good snacks.
16:28
SPEAKER_03: I don't know what you do, but you always keep there's a snack wall there in his office, and it's important.
16:33
SPEAKER_03: Oh, absolutely.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I encourage them to come by and talk to us.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: And and you know, some of the ones, especially the ones that care, they will.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: They'll they'll call or they'll come by and you know, why'd you refuse this case?
16:45
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times it would be because they don't understand like the fact pattern I gave before.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, we took the DWI, we took the evading, but this other stuff we don't we don't care about.
16:55
SPEAKER_03: Well, so like what so what makes a case get dismissed by your office?
16:58
SPEAKER_03: Because I will tell you, and you're well aware, cops are notorious for bitching about a case getting thrown out.
17:04
SPEAKER_03: But but what's the real reason behind it?
17:05
SPEAKER_03: Is it is it poor management on the on the prosecutor side?
17:08
SPEAKER_03: Is it is it shitty police work, or is it just sometimes in the quote unquote best interest of justice?
17:13
SPEAKER_03: And kind of explain what that means.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, so we're so we're all busy, right?
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Um our our LE guys are busy, prosecutors are busy.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, sometimes I mean, okay, um, you know, we're doing intake on a case, and we get a lot of intake.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: We indict probably about 500 cases a year in our uh district court, the 71st district court.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I don't know how many more come in, double, triple that.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, we've got to go look through these cases as quickly as possible, get them ready for grand jury.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: We only have one grand jury that meets a month, which, you know, in your bigger cities, they have continuous grand juries.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, we might look at a case and you know, on its face, it looks great.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, but then later, especially when you're getting a case ready for trial, um, it kind of falls apart.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: There were some things that were uh not done or should have been done, and they become fatal to our case.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes, you know, we just have to dismiss them.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I I guess if we had a chance to look at it a little bit closer on the front end, then we could reach back out to that agency and say, you need to correct this.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we just don't see it.
18:17
SPEAKER_03: But don't you have a standing order in your office that if you do that, so let's say that I work up a financial crimes, very extensive financial crime investigation, and you look at it, you look at the evidence, you look at everything that I've done.
18:29
SPEAKER_03: I sent to your office because y'all have done this to me when I was a cop or detective at Marshall.
18:34
SPEAKER_03: Um I thought I was the only thing that only one that kicks stuff back to him all the time.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm glad to hear you guys do too.
18:40
SPEAKER_03: I I I do get in a hurry sometimes.
18:42
SPEAKER_03: Uh put the cart before the horses, like my wife likes to say.
18:45
SPEAKER_03: But but you have a standing order in your office that uh y'all's office will contact that officer and say, hey, just letting you know.
18:51
SPEAKER_03: Uh is that and that's not Clinton.
18:53
SPEAKER_03: I I don't know this answer, but is that normal for a DA's office to have that?
18:57
SPEAKER_03: Because I I don't know that.
18:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't I don't think it's uncommon, especially on a higher profile case, but but they do it on every case.
19:04
SPEAKER_03: So if if every if their cop files a CT deal and they dismiss it, his office typically will reach out to that officer and say, Hey, just let you know, you know, you you arrested John Q Citizen the other day, and uh we dismissed it.
19:16
SPEAKER_03: And I and that to me we get a kickback notice.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, so we send so if it's a refusal, so I mean the difference being a refusal, it never gets uh charged.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: Dismissal mean, you know, of course, meaning it it got charged and we had to get rid of it, but we always send a refusal letter to the agency letting them know why, um, or letting them know that it's been refused.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a generic form.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And I would encourage officers when they get those to call the the DA's office or the county attorney's office, whomever, and ask them, you know, well, what happened is that something I did wrong, or and you know, there's a lot of reasons why that could happen.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh well, I will also say it's a little bit different note, but you know, if you are a five-year patrolman, let's say you're Garland PD, you're five years on, you've seen a lot, right?
20:02
SPEAKER_01: You've done a lot.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: And there are brand new baby prosecutors right out of law school that you know got their got their bar results yesterday.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, they've been to undergrad, they've been to law school, and they've learned a lot, but they don't really have the experience that a five-year Garland patrol officer has.
20:20
SPEAKER_04: No.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: And so that's why it's important to go talk to that DA's office and say, hey, you know, is there something that that I did wrong?
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Right.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times, you know, it's the the brand new baby prosecutor didn't realize something.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the prosecutors don't have all the answers, and I would never pretend to have all the answers.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know I know what I know, and you know, there have been times that officers come to me on something, the case got dismissed or refused, or it got filed to something lesser, and we've talked about it, and there have been times where I didn't realize where they were coming from.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, you need to let them know, you need to communicate with your prosecutors and let them know.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I mean, nobody wants to waste their time.
20:57
SPEAKER_03: No, certainly not yours and certainly not the cops, but but but I well, I guess what I was saying is that to personally get a phone call like we like I did from the ADs or the or the ADAs, to me was always cool because that well, I never had that before, you know.
21:11
SPEAKER_03: Uh and so the the prior district attorney uh before you just his office didn't do that, and it was just it's a good practice, I think.
21:17
SPEAKER_03: And it's uh it's because you have to have that open dialogue with the ADA of like, well, hey, where'd I screw up at?
21:21
SPEAKER_03: What was wrong with this?
21:22
SPEAKER_03: And and you get to have those discussions.
21:24
SPEAKER_03: Two things that helped me.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, one thing I learned the most when I failed.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh I'd have a judge tell me, hey, this PC warrant you brought over for me to sign, you need to come over here and visit with me about it.
21:39
SPEAKER_02: And I'd do the walk of shame across the parking lot and walk in, and they'd tell me this isn't gonna fly, or I'm not seeing the PC.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: I took it as a I mean, I learned every time that occurred, especially on search warrants.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: I tried to get really good at search warrants and trial and error and and getting feedback is how I got proficient and really comfortable.
21:59
SPEAKER_02: I Enjoyed.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: I went from avoiding them.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: If I heard somebody discussing, you know, we may look at doing a search warrant on this robbery or whatever, I was like, oh, slip out the door to where I'd volunteer.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: I wanted them to do them.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: But I had a bunch of feedback and failing along the way.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: But the other thing that helped me as a patrolman when I was kind of in the angry deep night stage and everybody was against me is every case, if you know, if it was not guilty or acquitted or no build, it was personal to me and it would I'd be pissed for two days over it.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: And an old head one day told me, hey man, fire it and forget it.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: Do what you can do.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: Send the round down range and forget it's gone.
22:40
SPEAKER_02: And once I did that, if I knew I did everything on my end, I probably wouldn't be that way with an activist DA, but you know, somebody that's handling their business like you guys do, if I did everything I can on my end and something happens and I lose a suppression hearing, you know, whatever may occur in an examining trial or whatever, I've done everything I can on my end.
23:01
SPEAKER_02: And as long as I can say that I responsibly did it, and that helped my mental health, yeah.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Knowing because I'd have a DWI or something and it'd get thrown out or whatever, and lose a suppression hearing, and literally I'd be pissed for two or three days and get mattered, or I wasn't gonna get a Gensu and I've set at the end of the month or whatever.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: And well, it occurred to me one day when I when I was testifying, when I was in crime scene, I used to testify a lot.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: And uh it occurred to me that if I started looking at it this way, everybody in the courtroom, it's well, it's a play, and everybody has a role.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: That's a good way to put it.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: And the prosecutor has his or her role, defense attorney the same, judge, jury, and my role in in the play was just to tell what what I saw.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't take anything personal, you know, afterwards.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: I I left the courtroom and I knew that that you know I I gave my role.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: And then however it turned out, it turned out.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: Now, if it if it was bad, of course I wanted to go back and learn from it so that it didn't happen again, but I didn't take it personally.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: If a defense attorney was um, you know, kind of beat me up on the stand.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: I I mean I didn't realize back then that defense attorneys can ask leading questions.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: State can't.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, and leading questions are questions that suggest an answer.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of time and a lot of times they won't give you the opportunity to explain.
24:16
SPEAKER_03: So when you say the state can't, is that is that like a part of the bar?
24:19
SPEAKER_03: Like how why can't we?
24:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, you can't ask leading questions, you can only ask leading questions of an adverse witness.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: Now, if the defense puts somebody on, then yes, the state can ask leading questions.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: Never knew that.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Did you know that?
24:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh supposed it's just smarter than I am.
24:37
SPEAKER_03: Well, I always I wish that's why they would teach a little bit more courtroom.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, because you get p because here's my thing you're on the stand, right?
24:45
SPEAKER_03: And so you're getting nailed by the defense attorney, and he's he keeps nailing you questions and you're getting pissed off.
24:49
SPEAKER_03: You're like, okay, and then so you want to get kind of that revent, you want to get that that knockout punch back.
24:55
SPEAKER_03: And I didn't know that.
24:56
SPEAKER_03: Now I kind of better I better understand it.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I would tell guys and women who are testifying uh for law enforcement, if a defense attorney is asking you all these uh leading questions and you feel like you're getting beat up and you look stupid and terrible, don't worry about that.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: If if I think it's hurting us, then I'll come back on redirect and I'll clean it up.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: If what you're saying doesn't matter, I mean you still may be going, I'm gonna get him.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: But if it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: And then you get off the stand, you finish your role, and the play goes on.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: Good way to put it.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: And and I will say though, um, so you know, we're in northeast Texas, so we're not Metroplex, we're not Austin, we're not Houston, thank goodness, we're not any of those places.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: But well, yeah, that wasn't fair.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: Um I I just I like Northeast Texas, I like more rural areas.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, we're not podunk by any stretch of the imagination.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: We've got eight attorneys in the office, two investigators over in Grade County, they see.
25:55
SPEAKER_03: So I always get right, they always joke around about how East Texas is where I live at in Jefferson and Marshall area, is is there's horses and we have which we do.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: I mean, who doesn't, right?
26:04
SPEAKER_03: We're in Texas.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, we're not yeah, we're not the Metroplex, but yeah, exactly.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: But you know, we're what 75,000 our county, Grade County next door is about 150,000.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's nothing that goes on in Houston, Dallas, Austin that doesn't go on in northeast Texas, especially Marshall, Longview, Texarkana, Lufkin, Tyler.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Nothing goes on in those cities that doesn't go on where we are.
26:28
SPEAKER_03: Oh, absolutely.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, I I take pride in and I try to actively reach out to my officers and let them know you know how their cases went, or if I do have to refuse a case, why?
26:41
SPEAKER_01: And so we're not just doing it just because we got nothing else better to do in East Texas.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: There's plenty to do, but for me, it's important for our office to work with our law enforcement and answer questions.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: I think that's a great analogy.
26:54
SPEAKER_02: The judge is like the director of the play and prosecutors, the producer that's and some productors.
27:00
SPEAKER_03: Some directors are better than others.
27:02
SPEAKER_03: I mean, the reality.
27:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:05
SPEAKER_03: All right.
27:06
SPEAKER_03: So uh this was it two weeks ago that House Bill 799 got pre-filed.
27:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or two or three weeks ago, uh deals with Brady and uh the Brady List.
27:18
SPEAKER_03: Uh you probably don't come across it as much as as we see it in our profession, uh, representing our members that who who are put on this.
27:25
SPEAKER_03: But do you think some of the offices around the state uh abuse this option and what's your recommendation recommendations on how the Brady list process should be?
27:37
SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, Representative Cody Harris filed House Bill 799, uh, which I think you're you may come out and testify in favor for that bill if need be.
27:47
SPEAKER_03: But what's your what's your overall kind of understanding or recommendation for Brady and how that works?
27:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, so in the I guess if I think it this way.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: So if I'm in the courtroom, I got a defendant, um we don't want to prove that defendants are guilty because they're bad people, right?
28:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: And so generally speaking, we can't talk about their criminal history in guilt innocence unless it's there are a couple of exceptions.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: Um because we want a jury on their own to listen to the evidence and determine whether or not that person's guilty.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: Then at punishment, then they get to hear exactly how bad they are.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: And and I say that because I I think kind of the same thing should apply to our officers.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: If there's something that the officer done that's exculpatory, that in other words, it judges it goes to his credibility, then sure, I mean, a jury needs to hear about that.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: Because they're judging credibility of evidence.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: And if an officer uh hasn't been fired, but he's a known liar, he's a known thief, um, then I think a jury should should hear that so that they can judge his credibility because that's what they're doing.
28:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, things an officer might do that don't lend itself to credibility, yeah, I I find to be really problematic.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: And our Brady list, and for that reason, really, our Brady list is kind of short in Harrison County.
29:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's one that I'm about to put on it.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm not gonna go into details or names, of course.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: Just because he's sitting here listening to it.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I don't think so.
29:21
SPEAKER_03: I hope not.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: No, uh, read you get something to me.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: No.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: All right.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: This is a great time.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: Well, we brought you together here today.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, live.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Hello.
29:28
SPEAKER_03: No, but um, so I I don't like the it seems like it's a trend, maybe not just in law enforcement, but but don't you think there should be some type of appellate process, uh, maybe to the district judge, the district court, on how that would at least at least give us some type, not we, I'm not on the brady list, but at least give person a person that's been on the brady list, uh, give them some type of appellant process, due process.
29:52
SPEAKER_02: And that that's that was my point of it is there's 254 counties in Texas.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: I know there's not 254 DAs because some DAs cover multiple counties, but there's over 200 DAs.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: And that and the Brady is interpreted 200 different ways.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean, literally, yeah, we have some DAs that do not participate, and we have some DAs that I mean, if if you say a bad word, then you're a freaking Brady officer.
30:21
SPEAKER_02: And um, I disagree with that, of course.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is interpreted in in Brady for for our listeners is supposed to be very narrowly focused.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: It's not just misconduct or an officer was disciplined, it's to go back to integrity and honesty issues.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: And it has been so broadly opened up that, well, this officer, you know, got in trouble one time, or this officer said this, or and it I I think the scope got opened up, which has then caused police leaders to interpret it differently.
30:59
SPEAKER_02: Because we have some chiefs that go, okay, cool, you're a Brady officer.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: The DA's office is gonna have to notify all parties, you keep doing what you're doing.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: And we have some police leaders and sheriffs that the moment they hear Brady even mentioned in the same sentence as your name, you're terminated immediately, which is then and and Brady ultimately is a an immediate death sentence to a law enforcement officer's career.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, and Michael Morton took that a step further, even.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: So we as prosecutors have an ongoing duty.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, if Officer Smith with, you know, whatever police department um isn't on the Brady list today, but then three years down the road he does something uh to get put on the Brady list.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, we have an on-duty, we have an ongoing duty to then disclose that.
31:44
SPEAKER_03: Oh wow.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And so then it reaches all the way back to three years ago, four years ago, however long it was, and they have the opportunity to look.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: But you know, in the grand scheme of things, at least in northeast Texas, and I've not really heard of a lot of talk about cases getting flipped because of you know that ongoing duty.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Um I I've I'm not seeing a trend uh across the state.
32:05
SPEAKER_03: We just had our elected conference last week, and I I don't I don't hear Well, but quite frankly, I think that that the not and I'm not talking about overall East.
32:12
SPEAKER_03: When I say East Texas, I mean like literally like maybe Marion, which is in Jefferson, Harrison, Marshall, Greg, Longview.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: I think Brady's respected.
32:23
SPEAKER_03: I think that the that the process is respected there, and I think that it's it's it's not abused.
32:28
SPEAKER_03: It's widely abused in other parts of the store.
32:30
SPEAKER_03: Oh, absolutely.
32:30
SPEAKER_03: We had a member in and and you may not know you may not know this, but we had a member at a certain police department in a certain county in southeast Texas, a very big city that incorporates is inside this county, and they were put on the Brady list because they called in the sick on their job, and I think they were at a baseball game and were seen on TV by their sergeant.
32:52
SPEAKER_03: Rightfully so.
32:52
SPEAKER_03: He did it wrong by calling in sick.
32:54
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
32:55
SPEAKER_03: But should he lose his career over that?
32:57
SPEAKER_03: No.
32:57
SPEAKER_03: I I just I don't think that's where Brady was intended, and that's how it's being enforced, and that's that's where that's where I'm at, is that we need to have some type of structured appellate program or process so that way they have they have an appeal process.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: There's a large county in North Texas west of Dallas County where an officer was put on Brady because the detective acknowledged on the stand that he used deception during the interrogation of a suspect.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: Sure, he's allowed to.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: That was our point.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: That was our point.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I I I could there's yeah, I could rattle 50 stories off like that, that it's it's it would be funny if it wasn't so damaging when it literally destroys a person's career.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, but I mean, I mean, in that that hypo that that Tyler just gave about the officer who went to the ball game and and called in sick, I mean, that's an administrative issue that needs to be taken up between that officer and his supervisor or the should be a career command chain.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's for me, Brady is, and I think for most of my colleagues would probably agree, like I said, except for some activist areas, but I mean, if if you if you're an officer and you get caught stealing from Walmart, okay, well, that's criminal.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: That's clearly Brady.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: That's something we're gonna report.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, some admin things, I don't think that that aren't gonna rise to the level of criminal.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: It's it's between them and the department.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily affect their credibility.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if they're now maybe they're uh changing reports, I don't know.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: Let's just say you had a supervisor who was changing reports.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: And so what the officer wrote down didn't actually happen.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, that that, okay, on a case-by-case basis, that would be something that I think should be addressed as Brady.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: But general uh administrative issues, I don't think that rises to the level of Brady.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think due process, you're in the business of of protecting people's rights and and righting wrongs and and enforcing the crimes against the evildoers.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: And I I think due process, it's it's great for everyone.
35:19
SPEAKER_02: Administrative hearings, you know, for uh DWIs for their license suspensions, there's Soha hearings that they can go through.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: There has to be some form of due process for me to just arbitrarily without recourse, I can just declare tomorrow, Reed, your career is over because I said, and I don't have to testify about it, stand up for it, document it.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: I just ended your career, and uh it's refreshing to hear you and a and a lot of your colleagues that are handling the business correctly, and um, I I think a lot of us do, and and there there are two things I'd like to say on that.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: So there I'm not gonna talk about details, but there there was a case that came up and I looked at it and I made the decision on my own to refuse the case.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: Um I didn't like what I was seeing in the investigation.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: And then I I wondered, you know, ah, is this gonna rise to the level of Brady or not?
36:23
SPEAKER_01: And I talked to a good friend of mine who's a defense attorney, uh, consulted with him, and he said, you know, I I I don't think it rises to the level of Brady because it it never really went anywhere.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: It was never investigated.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: It's not like a court found there was no probable cause, or the court found that there was deception or anything else.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: It was just it was prosecutorial uh discretion.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: We saw something, we just didn't go any further with it.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: Um because there was no point in ending that officer's career over it just because we're gonna see things all the time sometimes.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh we may an officer may write about something in a in a offense report, but he has one perspective and another officer sees something else.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: And so it doesn't mean necessarily one's lying, they just had different perspectives, or maybe one stepped off and he wrote about something he shouldn't write about because he didn't have the background.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: And and this was a case kind of like that, and that's why I talked to my friend who was a defense attorney, and he said, No, I wouldn't mess with it.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: And so we're not going to would some others maybe and I I teach a police involved shooting officer investigation uh course, and one of the things that I think can't be discussed enough, especially as a lot of DA's offices, larger DA's offices and the Rangers take over investigations of critical incidents and police shootings, is you have to consider a whole lot of facts when you go out.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: And I use the example all the time.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: You have a 22-year-old officer that's been on the job for six months, has lived with mom and dad, it's their first job, and you have a guy that's been around 20 or 25 years, been in some critical incidents, maybe was in the military prior to getting into law enforcement, has been deployed, has seen a lot of crazy stuff.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: They go get involved in a straightforward shooting or get in a uh fight with someone that passes away, and you interview the 22-year-old and ask them what do you think happened?
38:29
SPEAKER_02: Well, they may describe it as the most crazy shit show, almost died.
38:35
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: It was so freaking scary and hairy.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: And then when you go ask the guy that's been around 22 years and worked deep nights and been in, you're like, hey, what happened?
38:46
SPEAKER_02: Oh, the guy bowed up a little bit, and we had to tangle with them for a second to get him in custody.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: Well, and we had Well, that's their realities.
38:53
SPEAKER_02: Both of their and their stories are gonna sound 180 degrees opposite of each other, but that's their realities.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: Both of their realities that both of them are telling the truth.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: We had one like that when I was in Gray County, as an officer involved shooting.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna mention the agency or anything, but he had been deployed to Iraq, and um I don't know how many years he spent in the military, and because of his his assignment in the military, he he had some kills over there.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: And he wound up, and it was it was a righteous shooting.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: Um the guy pulled a shotgun on him and he shot him.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: He didn't kill him, but he shot him.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: And he makes the comment to uh investigators in the Rangers, he's like, I don't see what the big deal is in Iraq.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: We just filled out a form and moved on.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: And we're like, we were getting ready for trial.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: We're like, maybe don't say that on the stand.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a challenge.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: That was his perspective.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he'd been there and done it, and there, you know, there were other officers there, more junior officers who hadn't seen it, didn't have that exposure of combat.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: It was a bigger deal to them.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and like I said, at the end of the day, it wound up being a righteous shooting.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: The guy got convicted, I forget, he's got 50 years or something like that, and he should have.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: And so, but that that's an example, that's something I've seen personally.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, talking, but you know, comparing what what you just said.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've seen it.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: So context, context of it, and and people's perceptions can be greatly different when it's both of their right.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't mean somebody's lying, it doesn't need to be doesn't mean they need to be on a Brady list, in my opinion.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: But in it's a it's a discretion call.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: And so each prosecutor.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm going to add an abundance of caution, I'm gonna make sure that I'm doing right.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: That's why that that one case I told you about, I consulted with the defense attorney.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure that I was doing something right because I we don't we're supposed to be the good guys with the white hats.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: We give everything and then we go prosecute them anyway.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: And so I we got nothing to hide, not in my office.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: And so we'll always show, we'll always show our cards, but we're not going to I'm not gonna go overboard with that and and start just declaring people unfreakable.
41:10
SPEAKER_03: So if you could address the 23-year-old, 25-year-old, the two-year officer right now, and just whether it be in your county or whether it be in Harris, Dallas, El Paso, address them right now and say and tell them what what advice would a sitting district attorney tell the new law enforcement guys out there uh of what's going on in their counties and and their DA's offices?
41:34
SPEAKER_03: Was it is it they need to work on the reports, they need to work on you know having more more of an open mind of of DAs, not just dismissing cases just to dismiss them because they're you know their lazy perception is there.
41:46
SPEAKER_03: What advice would you give basically the cops out there right now that are just starting this this profession?
41:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd say number one, you don't know everything.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know everything.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: I've been doing this 27, 28 years.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: I don't know everything.
42:00
SPEAKER_02: Um Tyler tells me that all the time, and I know nothing.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, September 10th, 2011, I bet a 25-year New York police officer thought he'd seen everything there was to see until the morning of 9-11 when the planes flew into.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: So you don't know everything.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: You've not seen everything.
42:17
SPEAKER_01: You don't so um listen to your FTOs and listen to your command staff and don't be afraid to ask questions.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: Reach out to a prosecutor.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: If you got questions, reach out to them.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: Now, in our county, we're a little bit smaller than, of course, some of the big major ones, but pretty much every LE in in our county has my cell phone number.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you're in a bigger county, they don't have that.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: Most of them have like an on-call list.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, reach out to the to the on-call ADA and ask questions.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Or go by the office if you happen to be up by there, go ask questions.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: And some of these, just real quick, uh I had a I had a when I was at Grade County, there was a one of the misdemeanor guys I worked with when I first started over there, he refused a case.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: I forget what kind of case it was.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: And he says, uh, he says, Hey, you you know that case I refused?
43:05
SPEAKER_01: I said, Yeah.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: And he said, Well, that uh that trooper called me.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, Well, he wants what's he want to talk about?
43:12
SPEAKER_01: I said, I'm sure he wants to talk about it.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: Stop by his case, yeah.
43:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: He's curious.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: He's like, Well, you think he's mad?
43:19
SPEAKER_01: I said, I think he probably just has a question.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: He was scared to call him back.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: He goes, Well, what should I do?
43:23
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, call him.
43:24
unknown: Yeah.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: He just wants to know what he did wrong.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: And so some of these prosecutors, they know they don't know everything.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: And so they don't mind, especially if it's a a seasoned officer, they don't mind hearing feedback from him.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: They like learning too.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: And so, but but it was just really funny.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: I was like, wow, you're scared of this, you're scared of this trooper.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: He just wants to know what happened.
43:43
SPEAKER_02: That's funny.
43:44
SPEAKER_02: We all don't know.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: We all don't know.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: At the height of my career, I was working crimes against persons and had been working robberies and shootings, and uh I had an aggravated robbery case going to trial, and it was an awesome like had a confession, had fruits of the crime.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: Had surveillance, can I mean I had everything.
44:03
SPEAKER_02: So we get to trial, and it's one where I'm like, oh, this is gonna be awesome.
44:07
SPEAKER_02: The prosecutor, young prosecutor, said, Hey, I'm gonna put a patrolman on, um, a uniform on for the report end of it, and then I'll just use you for the rest.
44:17
SPEAKER_02: I said, Okay.
44:18
SPEAKER_02: So I show up and my nicest looking cheap suit, and I'm gonna look all detective E, and I'd been practicing on my looking at the person asking the question and looking at the jury, and so the the Garland officer they bring in, garland officers are stereotyped to be all big giant dudes.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: Well, the the guy they brought in looked like a silverback gorilla, was huge, ginormous, scary guy.
44:47
SPEAKER_02: So they put him on the stand.
44:48
SPEAKER_02: I get on and do my detective thing.
44:50
SPEAKER_02: I wore my glasses, trying to look all detective-y, and we get a conviction.
44:55
SPEAKER_02: Well, I always like to go ask the prosecutor what the jury said.
45:01
SPEAKER_02: You know, oh, that you could have done more about your search warrant, or you could have explained this better.
45:06
SPEAKER_02: And I was super confident getting off the stand and I asked the young little prosecutor, I said, Hey, what'd the jury have to say?
45:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh they said they loved the testimony of the uniform guy, but didn't really care what you had to say, and didn't didn't really, they just kind of tuned you out.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: I was awful.
45:24
SPEAKER_02: I went back to my desk and I wish I could talk to those people in the whole.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: You you never know what the jury's gonna do.
45:29
SPEAKER_01: You never know.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: But no, these guys, there just needs to be communication between LE and and the D the prosecutor's offices.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: We're all on the same side.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: And we just we just have different roles.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: And we don't know everything.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: LE doesn't know everything.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: And so if they'll reach out and talk to them, I mean, these guys, I like I said a little bit ago, I just got back from the elector conference last week.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the the the other electeds, by and large, across the state, they want to hear.
45:58
SPEAKER_01: And especially, you know, in some of your your smaller counties, I mean they they really want to know.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: And that that's not to say that our our prosecutors in the big counties don't care, but yeah, I mean, there's there's a lot of talk about that.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, we just need to communicate and we're I mean, we're on the same side.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: I think it's important too, one thing before we we end.
46:19
SPEAKER_02: Before we started, you were talking about, and we talk about law enforcement all the time, that there's a recruiting crisis and staffing shortages, and nobody wants to do the job anymore.
46:28
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's important for our viewers to understand, too.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: I was shocked when you showed up earlier today and we were chatting uh before we got on.
46:39
SPEAKER_02: There's a recruiting crisis for prosecutors.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: I can't I was shocked to hear that.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the last time I looked on TDCAA, which is uh Texas District and County Attorneys Association, which is where we uh uh advertise openings.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: Last time I checked, there was uh you know, it was probably two weeks ago, there were about 153 openings for prosecutors across the state.
47:02
SPEAKER_02: I had no idea.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so and it's you know, a lot of it started with COVID, and a lot of it started with that incident that happened in Minneapolis.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna talk about the name of that defendant because he's was no hero.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: Um we know the case I'm talking about.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Yes, sir.
47:19
SPEAKER_02: Um and a lot of it talked though, the peaceful protest.
47:23
SPEAKER_01: Yes, all the peaceful protests.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: Love him.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think I think that the the criminal justice world kind of took a black eye in general.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: And so there's yeah, there's uh LE recruiting problem, and then there's prosecutor recruiting problem.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're down three in my office alone.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: I would have never guessed that.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: I never would have guessed that.
47:43
SPEAKER_03: Well, and we talked about the salaries too.
47:44
SPEAKER_03: We don't have to get into that right now.
47:46
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure it's significantly different than other counties out there, but uh it's it's crazy, and it's not as much as what you would think.
47:52
SPEAKER_03: Uh uh, in all honesty, uh what Reed's starting uh ADA's salary is, is is not even near our our starting patrolman salaries at some of the metropolis.
48:03
SPEAKER_02: So all lawyers and DAs don't drive Ferraris.
48:07
SPEAKER_02: That is a that's not true, yeah.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: In in my county, uh and it we are a lower paying county, but uh starting misdemeanor ADA is fifty-eight thousand.
48:17
unknown: Yeah.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: It's a sad yeah.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: Um well and you have somebody coming out of law school with a hundred and eighty thousand dollar student loan.
48:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's where I'm at.
48:24
SPEAKER_02: They're that's gonna be a long way to chip away at that talk.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, and in law schools also they're they're not encouraging, at least in my experience, they're not encouraging a lot of their students to go into prosecution to the extent they are encouraging it.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Um I recently spoke to somebody at a major law school in Texas who said, Oh yeah, we've we've you know, we have we've got a lot of law students who are really excited about getting into a progressive DA's office and changing, fundamentally changing the process.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: And I I realized that I probably we didn't have really have anything else to talk about.
48:56
SPEAKER_03: But um well, hey, maybe we can write a bill and at the state ledge and and and require anybody coming out of the law school has to work at a DA's office for two years minimal it would benefit their career for sure.
49:10
SPEAKER_02: Or to run for DA, you have to have police experience.
49:13
SPEAKER_03: Oh I think we're on to something.
49:16
SPEAKER_03: Or have them be trained by Reed.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it's I've I've enjoyed my career, I've had fun.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: Um look forward to the next four years.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: And you know, just just tell the guys out there, you know, just keep working with us, ask them questions, and well generally we're happy to answer.
49:32
SPEAKER_03: Again, I cannot not number one, I can't thank you enough for driving down to come down here.
49:36
SPEAKER_03: Uh, number two, I I I I do honestly think the absolute best uh of you.
49:42
SPEAKER_03: And I I do have you you are very much uh a really, really, really good friend of mine.
49:47
SPEAKER_03: And uh I mean exactly what I say.
49:48
SPEAKER_03: And you you are a friend of law enforcement.
49:50
SPEAKER_03: Uh you do good work in your office.
49:52
SPEAKER_03: Uh before we get off, there's three questions that we're gonna fire off to you.
49:56
SPEAKER_03: You ready?
49:56
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
49:58
SPEAKER_03: Best cop movie and why?
49:59
SPEAKER_03: Best movie.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: Or post line from a cop movie.
50:02
SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah, or best line.
50:03
SPEAKER_03: So best cop movie or best line in why Die Hard?
50:06
SPEAKER_03: Die Hard.
50:07
SPEAKER_03: You got a line from it, or you just you just like diehard?
50:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, there's so many in it.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, we could we could have a whole podcast on that.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: That's right, yeah.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: Best police vehicle.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh Crown Vic.
50:18
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
50:19
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
50:20
SPEAKER_03: You're so that's the second one we've had.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, no.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I did love those mid-90s Caprice Classics with the LT1.
50:28
SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, those cars went fast.
50:30
SPEAKER_03: Y'all, y'all beat me on that one.
50:31
SPEAKER_03: That was too early in my life.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: But but they had, but they were so powerful.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: They had no limited slipper ends, and you got on a wet road though, I mean, you'd lose it.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: Where did you drive those at?
50:39
SPEAKER_01: Marshall.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: Marshall P.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: They'll do 151.
50:42
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
50:43
SPEAKER_03: I was told.
50:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
50:44
SPEAKER_03: See, so okay.
50:46
SPEAKER_03: So for those listening, these two guys were outside uh before we jumped on here, and there's there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that these these two guys are the reasons why we have policies.
50:55
SPEAKER_03: And they're the reasons why a lot of stuff we can't do now is the way it is now because of these these guys' generations.
51:00
SPEAKER_03: Last question.
51:02
SPEAKER_03: What's the best cop whiskey out there you would recommend?
51:06
SPEAKER_01: The best cop whiskey?
51:08
SPEAKER_01: I know what my favorite whiskey is.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, what is that?
51:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a toss-up between uh uh well, I like I like Booker's, and also, which is but that's like like 90 bucks a bottle and it's like 110 proof.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: And then uh makers.
51:25
SPEAKER_03: Makers.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and also you forgot to mention that I am also a TMPA member.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna get to that.
51:30
SPEAKER_03: You can give me a chance.
51:31
SPEAKER_03: He is the he is actually a TMPA member uh and a sitting district attorney, which I think uh is absolutely phenomenal.
51:38
SPEAKER_03: And I'm still commissioned.
51:39
SPEAKER_03: And you still you you are still commissioned.
51:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:42
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm thankful that you came on and I got to meet you because he said this guy we're gonna have on is one of the most liberal activist district attorneys in the state.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: A man of life.
51:54
SPEAKER_03: That's not even that's not exactly what I said.
51:57
SPEAKER_02: No, no.
51:59
SPEAKER_02: I I appreciate I I am thankful you came on, you took the time to come down.
52:04
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate being invited and your involvement, and it's these relationships that I think keeps the profession and the criminal justice profession moving forward.
52:16
SPEAKER_02: Because the day we all fragment and stop looking to put bad guys in jail, that's that's a detriment, that's to the detriment of our communities, and that's not in the best interest of the people.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
52:28
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
52:29
SPEAKER_03: I agree.
52:30
SPEAKER_03: Well, uh thanks again for coming on.
52:33
SPEAKER_03: And uh for you all out there, uh, you got any questions, if you have any concerns with us, you want to come on the show, and you have any recommendations, shoot us an email, bluegrit at tmpa.org.
52:45
SPEAKER_03: Uh that's gonna wrap this up and uh God bless you, and as always, may God bless Texas.
52:50
SPEAKER_02: I want to say quick before we sign off, uh I've got my Garland shirt on.
52:54
SPEAKER_02: Look out for one another out there.
52:56
SPEAKER_02: Garland PD lost two this week.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: A retired assistant chief Jim Vance, who was amazing.
53:01
SPEAKER_02: And uh we had a lieutenant uh take his own life this week.
53:05
SPEAKER_02: Please reach out to your coworkers, buddy check.
53:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh if you're struggling, reach out.
53:12
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't have to be through your department.
53:14
SPEAKER_02: Call one of us, call copline.
53:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh, or if you think somebody's struggling, please reach out, call them, text them, because it's generally the ones we don't know that are struggling, that are struggling.
53:25
SPEAKER_02: Take care of one another out there.
53:27
SPEAKER_02: Often we eat our own and uh have a tough load mentality, and uh we need to move past that.
53:33
SPEAKER_02: It's okay to not be okay.
53:35
SPEAKER_02: So check on your friend out there, give somebody a call and tell them you love them.
53:38
SPEAKER_03: As always, God bless you and may God bless Texas.