Latest / The Nonprofit Podcast / Ep 157| Nonprofit interdependence: Smarter strategy for sustainability?

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Ep 157| Nonprofit interdependence: Smarter strategy for sustainability? · The Nonprofit Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: The Nonprofit Podcast, powered by DonorBox.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: What if the future of a stronger, more sustainable nonprofit sector isn't about being independent, but interdependent?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Nonprofit Podcast.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Britt Stockert, your fundraising strategist at DonorBox.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Each week we bring you practical, real life actions that you can start using today to take your nonprofit to the next level tomorrow.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're talking about how nonprofits can break out of silos and collaborate in ways that actually move the needle.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: How's everyone holding up?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Let's be real.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Funding's shifting, policies are changing, and the demand for services is gonna grow.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's easy to feel like you're carrying it all alone.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: The nonprofit world, we go at a lightning speed.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if there's one thing I personally have learned about invisible secondary trauma, it's that it builds quietly.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: But what if the way forward isn't about doing it all solo?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: What if it's about leaning into community, sharing resources, and working together?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I am so stoked.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with my peer, Michelle Flores, certified fundraising executive.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: She just is a powerhouse in marketing, fundraising.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: She's not just a consultant, she is a boots on the ground practitioner.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: She served many organizations.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: She's helped build up their capacity.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I will tell you, she is one of the boldest voices for community-centric fundraising out there.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: If you've seen her on LinkedIn, you know she doesn't mess around.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: She's not afraid to challenge the status quo and push the sector to just do better.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so today we're going to be diving into a February LinkedIn article that she posted: A Network of Mutuality and Why Interdependence is a future of nonprofits.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to start talking about how do we show up for each other in bigger, braver ways.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Michelle, hey, thanks for joining the show.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: I am thrilled to be here.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad we could talk more about this article because it's kind of very condensed with a lot of topics.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we can tease out some of them today.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: In your article, you start with a powerful quote from Dr.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Martin Luther King Jr.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: We are bound together in an inescapable network, a mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: What affects one directly affects all indirectly.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: And what I love about this, Michelle, is you introduced this idea of creating a network of mutuality.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think what we're seeing today, how every action that we take or don't take individually and in consideration of our friends or neighbors, it's starting to have ripple effects on communities.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Can you break down what you're thinking with this idea of a network of mutuality, what does it really mean at a very basic conceptual level?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: I always think of things from a systems level.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, the network of mutuality inspired by Dr.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Keene, it's really this idea that our interconnectedness is something inherent to the structures which we created to work from.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And because it's inherent, it should really be a big piece of our mindset and the way we approach our work.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: However, I find that we have to point this out to folks because we tend to forget how all of our missions are interconnected.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing that, you know, we all felt experientially, viscerally through the pandemic was an action can happen around the world and have all of these connections, right?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very indicative of a global economy.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm saying is we are connected through our missions in ways that we are an ecosystem of change.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really want us to operate from that understanding.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I remember reading that article.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one thing that really connected with me, you included this powerful analogy by Peter, is it Walling Ben?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: He wrote a book called The Hidden Life of Trees.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you explained how trees in a forest, how they support one another, they're a lot like nonprofits and how we should operate, right?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because when one tree is struggling, they have a whole communicative system underneath that we just don't see in terms of sharing resources and communicating.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what we need to do as nonprofits.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: But what does it look like in practice?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: And what do you think holds so many of us back?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm talking about nonprofits.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: We know we need to collaborate.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: We know that's the right thing to do, but why don't we do it?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: What's an idea here that holds us back from collaborating?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I've thought about this a lot because I always pull this thread back to like, where is this really starting from?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that with the creation of the nonprofit sector, you know, a couple hundred years ago in the US, that this really starts when we get assigned our EIN number as a nonprofit, right?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like we form, like literally this separate entity.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like we are this thing.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: We are dedicated to doing this one mission and we will be exempt from taxes for doing this one thing.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels very narrow in a sense, which is good because you know, specificity allows you to really hone in your efforts to achieve something that has uh a lot of definition.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a great thing.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think what comes along with that is you forget all of the trees beside you.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you forget, like, oh yeah, like I'm also a part of this network that is social and cares about each other, and we our work is connected.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's the piece we'll just double underline in this conversation over and over again is our work is connected.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so we should act in ways that really allow for us to share resources because ultimately that's going to help us with our mission.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this feels paradoxical to say, okay, so you're telling me, Michelle, acknowledge your specific mission statement, you know, that that's that's why you got your EIN number.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is specifically what you're doing, but at the same time, don't act siloed, act as if you're part of a larger social change ecosystem.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And my answer is yes, like that is the trick, right?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like if there is a magic trick, like that's it.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And all great truths in life are like that, right?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's holding two things that are seemingly paradoxical at the same time in your mind and acknowledging both are true.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: But we've really leaned towards the side of this is my narrow thing, I'm just out doing this thing for me.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, this is the work and how I contour it out is a very specific narrow lane.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm telling you, if we acknowledge the trees beside us, the other nonprofits, our lane and the work that we produce in that lane will get so much easier.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I like the idea of duality, holding two truths all at once.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: But okay, I'm what I'm thinking about here is, for example, I was at a diaper bank and we worked closely with other diaper banks.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: We were part of a coalition.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: We did the delivery of services, we did the advocacy in terms of meeting with our state legislators.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: But what happens?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: We were dealing with external forces that created like this weird icky tension.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: We were showing up, we were submitting a joint application.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what do you think they did?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: When it came time to award a grant contract for three years, they didn't split the award between the three diaper banks, knowing that we're part of the same coalition.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: They awarded the entire award to one.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I'll tell you, I it was extremely frustrating.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I used it as a teachable, teachable moment.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: I always wrote these government agencies a professional letter explaining why collaborative partnerships, it's not just good for reporting processes and impact.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many benefits.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess my question, Michelle, is what if nonprofits are doing the right thing?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: But the funders don't have their act together.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I love you so much for like being you know direct in your examples and like really showing us what the problem is through your own experience.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think the way funding structures work, often donors reward quote unquote innovation to a single organization, not for the collective impact.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I would challenge us as nonprofits to say, look, if we can't evolve funding structures, we have to act more relational in the way that we're distributing funds, showing up, et cetera, et cetera.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because we can do those things.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I will acknowledge that it is like more operational work, like on the finance side, but I think a lot of it is our belief systems that we approach work from will really define and inform the way we act.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm hoping even if funders don't rise to the occasion in their behavior, we will as nonprofits.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: But um, thinking about capacity, uh, you know, maybe a team of two to three people at most hearing what you're saying about collaboration, they're unsure how to start.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Can you dish out one or two simple ways that they can start collaborating with other organizations?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't have to be other nonprofits, right?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: It that can extend to other types of uh partners.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, this is a very simple first step.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't overthink it, because I think we can overthink this step.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: But what we first need to do is create some kind of network map, right?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like around the change you're working in, whether it's um a food pantry or environmental conservation or whatever it may be.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing is you have to know who is in that ecosystem and what is a differentiation between what they're doing.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: That is simply like mapping out who, like if you were trees, going back to the tree example, who is in that physical place and kind of keeping good tabs and open communication lines on what's working well, when do people need things.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say, first, know who those people are, but also make time to not only build relationships with them, but sustain relationships.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that that takes time.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's one thing that's really gotten us into this fractured place that I feel like a lot of us are in is we're so busy we don't take the time to get to know these folks in our mission-adjacent areas, and we don't sustain those relationships.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I would argue though that we don't have time not to do that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so, one quick tactical thing I would like really love to plug is I'm a big fan of Slack and other similar channels like Moddy Networks.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, remember if you're a nonprofit, you do get a huge Slack discount, um, just FYI.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: But that's one way, like, let's leverage technology to stay in touch with folks.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you need something, you have people to reach out to when they need something, you know, they know that you're there.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's an easy first step.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: What really struck me in your article, going back to feeling like we're always in this urgency crunch, is you quoted by you, Akomolafe.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: He says this we need to grieve, cultivate bewilderment and fall apart together instead of rushing straight to problem solving.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: We're not creating these spaces to really build those relationships.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, most of my time as an executive director, I was always dropping whatever it was I I needed to do in hopes of people pleasing and making some sort of quick fix.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll I'll be honest, it led to a lot of adrenal fatigue and occupational trauma.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, what what are some practical steps that nonprofit leaders can take to slow down, to grieve, to reflect and heal.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because from what I'm hearing from you, Michelle, in order to collaborate, we first need to create those spaces to just focus on ourselves.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's another thing that Bio says, and I really love this phrasing the times are urgent, let us slow down.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that's exactly what we need to do is we have to remember nonprofit work is deeply emotional.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're dealing with injustice, loss, systemic issues, and we have expectations placed on us to act like machines, keep producing, keep pushing.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: But all of this pressure to change the world and to sustain ourselves so we're able to change the world, we we rarely give ourselves time to pause and to say, you know, this has been a hard year.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: This has been a hard week because we are really conditioned in this sector, potentially over other sectors, to rush into solutionism, right?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's the solution we've got to fix the problem?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just who we are, right?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: But we we have to reframe that grieving or expressing our emotions isn't weakness, it's how we process and make space for new possibilities.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have to hold space, name the loss and emotions we're feeling, and then moving to support each other.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: We skip all of those steps, but those are really the nourishment we need to get to the place we're trying to go.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think bottom line for me is I want, especially leaders, to really internalize that healing and processing your emotions is a strategy.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: It makes us resilient and capable of doing the work for the long run.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: I hear what you're saying in terms of being intentional about creating space.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: What what do you think that looks like?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is that like carving out time as like a development director on Fridays to work on mental health?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: I guess that can manifest in so many ways, right?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: As long as we do it.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the first thing I would say is it has to look like what the trees do, right?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like what a forest does.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because individually, a tree is so isolated, so susceptible to any danger or threat.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: But together, a forest is strong.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is what we have to first do is you know, the networking piece, understanding who is in our orbit of mission space, right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have to first do those things because when we connect to other people, we remember the more important relational aspect of all this, the grieving aspect, the checking our emotions aspect.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like we remember that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's harder to do individually.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my number one thing.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say for leaders or development directors, we have to connect urgency with sustainability.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to think, say things like, this work is too important to burn out on.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: If we want to show up for the long haul, we have to take care of each other.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have to frame reflection and healing and processing our emotions as an investment in staying effective, not a distraction from the mission.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's it sounds like a slight reframe, but it really is like a 180 degree, if not more, change.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: You're always so contemplative.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: You throw out amazing insights.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: I guess I just want to wrap it up with one quick question for you.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: What's one thing you think nonprofits, nonprofit leaders or workers should stop doing immediately?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know, but we can stop doing it immediately because I realize like that may be hard for a lot of us, but I would encourage folks to realize how much our desire to scale an organization, meaning to increase your annual revenue year over year, influences our decision making in the way we move throughout the world.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know we can't immediately go to changing that, but I think the first thing is recognizing how much of a hold that has over us.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if people could at least reflect on that, I would be very happy.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be a year of slowing down, deprogramming from yes, this need to scale and scale quickly.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm all for it.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I love talking to you.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to ask you right before you go, where can our listeners follow you?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I am very active on LinkedIn.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to post, you know, at least four or five times a week and share thoughts of what's kind of happening in my orbit and definitely things I think will be helpful to other people.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So LinkedIn is the number one place, but you can also check out my website, which is Michelle F Vryn.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Vryn is vr-n dot com.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a lot of other things about how to work with me hosted there.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: For all of you listeners, we're gonna drop her website, we're gonna drop her LinkedIn URL in the show notes, and also a link to that LinkedIn article from February that we just talked about today.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: I have a challenge for all of you.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: I want you to take 30 seconds, think about one prospective partner.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: It can be a nonprofit, a company, whatever, that you can reach out to this week to collaborate, shoot them a quick email or a text or a DM.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to see where does it take you?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Follow back with us, send us your story, and hey, we might feature it in an upcoming episode.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Michelle, thanks for joining me.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Britt, you too.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks so much for joining us on the Nonprofit Podcast.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: I hope that you've left with the confidence to take a small step today that will make a big difference tomorrow.
• 19:03
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• 19:14
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