Latest / Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship / #169 - Hosting a Salon: The Friendship Upgrade from Book Clubs (Linda-Marie Barrett)

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#169 - Hosting a Salon: The Friendship Upgrade from Book Clubs (Linda-Marie Barrett) · Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship

0:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Dear Nina Conversations about Friendship.
0:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Nina Boutsin.
0:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been writing about Friendship over a decade podcasting about it for over four years, and today we are tackling the idea of planning a salon for either friends you already have and want to get to know better or for making new friends.
0:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's people out there that
0:24
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of had your eye on.
0:26
[SPEAKER_00]: You have a feeling that you would have a lot to talk about if you had the opportunity, and this is a different kind of way of getting together with people.
0:33
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not a book club.
0:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not a cooking club.
0:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not Majong.
0:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not pickleball.
0:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It is something completely different.
0:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It is discussing a topic in an organized way.
0:47
[SPEAKER_00]: What topic?
0:48
[SPEAKER_00]: That's up to you.
0:48
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're the one planning it, that is up to you.
0:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We get into the nitty gritty of what is a salon?
0:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Why you might want to try one?
0:56
[SPEAKER_00]: How you could think about organizing one with the most sensible person to have this topic with me, Linda Marie Barrett is the author of creating a salon, the magic of conversations that matter.
1:08
[SPEAKER_00]: She is a writer, editor, and executive director of the Southern and dependent booksellers Alliance pronounced Ceba.
1:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Before that, she was at Malipop's bookstore cafe where she wore many hats including events manager and you will see that Linda Murray really understands events and that's what makes her such a good leader of something like a salon and she had a lot to teach in this book a lot of good tips.
1:31
[SPEAKER_00]: She's been hosting her own salon since 2017 and she lives in Asheville, North Carolina with her husband.
1:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Linda Marie, welcome to Dernina.
1:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, it's great to be here.
1:41
[SPEAKER_00]: your book fits so perfectly with every mission I have on this podcast because finding ways to get together with our friends is so essential to deepen the relationship, continue the relationship, but also these creative discussion groups, clubs, groups, salons, whatever we want to call them, also is another way to make friends.
2:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So it solves two problems.
2:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I hear about a lot on
2:10
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I keep friends maintain these friendships?
2:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love a chance for you to lead us up to that actually tell us how you got into the I don't want to say business.
2:22
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't the right word, but how you got into leading salons and how you define them just all of that.
2:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to turn it over to you.
2:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I decided to start a salon when I was recently divorced and I was starting a new job.
2:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I was feeling a bit untethered and needed to expand my friend circle.
2:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd been in a salon many years earlier at a bookstore that I worked at.
2:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd also been hosting a book club for about 20 years, so I was really familiar with hosting groups, but I didn't have really close friends, and I saw that big void in my life.
2:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I just started researching salons, how they're practiced today, and also support groups, some best practices, things that work, things that don't work, and I thought about what I wanted to do with my
3:09
[SPEAKER_01]: salon because I decided I wanted to do a salon and so I kind of created a mission for it.
3:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I invited a group of women, some of them, I didn't know that well, but I wanted to know them more and then there were some that I was, you know, kind of emerging friends.
3:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So I sent out invitations and to my delight, everyone accepted.
3:28
[SPEAKER_01]: A few of them over time have either relocated or decided it wasn't for them, but in general,
3:39
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think about getting an invitation like that, it's so different than even a book club, which is you need to prepare something before you come, you know, extensively.
3:47
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people don't in these days, which is why I've never successfully been able to stay in a book club, whether I was a member or a leader of it because, and I've done both, I'm such an English nerd type.
3:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I was an English teacher before I was a parent before I was a writer, and I like to discuss the book.
4:05
[SPEAKER_00]: that never quite worked for me, but other things people can invite it to sometimes is an event a fundraiser come here this person who's running for office or come give to this person who's running for office or even a movie club or a podcast club, there is some sort of work ahead of time.
4:21
[SPEAKER_00]: The idea of the salon is so cool because it's really just show up.
4:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, right, did I get there right?
4:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
4:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it may be more work for the host because of the moderator.
4:32
[SPEAKER_01]: with my salon, I like to kind of tease out the subject ahead of time so that people aren't coming into it cold.
4:38
[SPEAKER_01]: In the book, I call it salon 4 play where I will let them know what the theme is and send them maybe some links to articles or give them questions to think about.
4:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, in general, it's less work than a book club and it's more just thinking about a subject and how that might affect you personally and maybe what you'd like to share with a group of
5:01
[SPEAKER_00]: such a different kind of thing.
5:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm part of a very casual, and by casual, I mean, we just don't get together that often.
5:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Cooking group, maybe there's five of us.
5:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've only gotten together a few times.
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I would like to do it more, but it is a bit more work.
5:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, and again, for the hosts, it's more work.
5:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Of having all the supplies there and having thought through what recipes you want to make, there isn't a lot of ability to talk.
5:23
[SPEAKER_00]: You could talk a little while you're doing, but there's also a lot of instruction going on.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: making sure you're not burning things or handling where I'll meet in the incorrect way, or you know, there's lots of pay attention to.
5:32
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something very unique and special about the idea of people sitting around and discussing an idea.
5:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hear what you're saying that you send out some stuff ahead of time so that maybe people have had a time to put a little thought into it, but just a little.
5:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I think people are really craving those kind of opportunities to talk about these ideas or things that are going on outside of like a current crisis, often when we meet with people we catch them up on what's going on in our lives and we hear about their lives.
5:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But the idea of, in our slide, for example, we talked about regret.
6:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Having seven or nine women talking about regret in different ways, it was fascinating.
6:07
[SPEAKER_01]: People have shared that they brought that discussion into their lives in really interesting ways,
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[SPEAKER_01]: partners are talking with colleagues about regret.
6:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't take a lot of preparation, but I think the after effects of a salon will echo out or vibrate out into the rest of your life.
6:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about the history of Slons for a moment.
6:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You touch on this in the book.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I love that section.
6:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So I do do a little bit about the history of Slons, because I think it's important to think about where you fit into that tradition.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Slons take place across the world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the word Salon is French.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The kind of slons that we think about when we think about maybe Gertrude Stein's Salon or the Salons of Vienna or Paris.
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[SPEAKER_01]: started in France in the early 1600s.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They were usually hosted by women called Seleniers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They were held in the homes of prominent people and the women hosts the Seleniers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They invited the guests.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They decided what would be talked about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They directed conversation.
7:07
[SPEAKER_01]: From that time, Salons grew in popularity and spread into Vienna and London, Dublin, and over the United States and to Washington, DC, New York, and Boston, and even today, I think there's growing popularity of Salons that are like a modern version of Salons where people workshop music or use it as a platform for poetry readings or just talk about philosophy or
7:37
[SPEAKER_00]: would have led a very slimy different than a book club.
7:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be I actually host a book club.
7:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you mentioned that you go to a book club.
7:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Not anymore.
7:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like fired from every book club.
7:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I've ever been.
7:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the no fun book club member.
7:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, are we got to talk about the book?
7:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody wants me and a book club.
7:52
[SPEAKER_01]: A literary salon, I would say, would be a deeper dive into a book than your traditional book club, and it may also involve having a touring author visit where you would take the author out to dinner, and then listen to the author speak about their book, and then
8:08
[SPEAKER_01]: talk about how the book affected you, so I think it would be like a more adaptation or enhanced book club.
8:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's very possible for people to do in their communities if you have authors in your community or authors that come through and visit your local bookstore to do that.
8:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love us to talk about what goes into creating a salon and this can be true for any group, a book club, a cooking club, anything.
8:33
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll keep it to salons generally, but I want people to know that it's certain issues who to invite where to meet.
8:38
[SPEAKER_00]: These are things you have to think about in any kind of event planning, especially in ongoing event that you want people to keep coming to.
8:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Where does a person start?
8:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think one of the things to think about with your salon is what are your goals?
8:52
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you hoping to accomplish with your salon?
8:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people might have salons to bridge differences to talk about issues that might be where there's two groups perceived to be at war with each other, or maybe your mission is to talk about important themes or literary as we talked about.
9:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think for the salon house, do you think about
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: What do I want to do with my salon in my group of people?
9:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I would recommend creating, even if it's just for yourself, a kind of mission statement about this is what I hope to achieve.
9:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And then as far as inviting people, it's gets really awkward to uninvite people if you realize, like, you know, you said, I know you were joking, but you were joking about being uninvited from book clubs.
9:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I would definitely start small and think about the personalities of the people you want to
9:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Because a salon is generally a moderated discussion, and there are some people who just resist being moderated.
9:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I would think about the personalities of people you know who
9:50
[SPEAKER_01]: you enjoy being in conversation with, and who don't try to like dominate conversations, but seem to be more open and to a given take.
9:58
[SPEAKER_01]: As far as setting, if you are the person creating the salon, then thinking about where you would like to host it, would you like to host it in your home, because that's really comfortable and familiar to you, and you have a lot of control, or would you like to do it in a restaurant?
10:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Or some restaurants have a separate room that you can use as little quieter and more private,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Fun experience of enjoying a meal together.
10:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say with a goal for a moment, but it's almost like no thing is more important than the other They're all important.
10:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like that's a you have a certain goal.
10:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if your goal is to make friends I would say a restaurant unless there's a private room is really too noisy You're not really gonna be in here like it might not help you with your goal
10:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And if your goal is to make friends as the host or to deepen friendships, then yeah, you don't want to invite people who are already in a group of friends that you're not heard of.
10:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say, I mean, I'm really getting granular here, but I think I so agree with you that you as a host should really be clear on what is the purpose of this thing.
10:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And then everything else that you have to think about where, when, how many people, what the topics are, that should be the goal.
11:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with my book club, we have a really large number of people in the book club, but I notice when it gets over 10 people or 12 people at one meeting, it's really hard for everyone to have a chance to contribute.
11:16
[SPEAKER_01]: The salons are not passive.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They are an engaged discussion.
11:20
[SPEAKER_01]: People can choose not to speak.
11:22
[SPEAKER_01]: For somebody's like, if the topic is something they're not resonating with or they just don't feel comfortable talking about, but in general, that's a very important thing to think about is the size of the group and making sure that everyone would have an opportunity to discuss it and beforehand when you're inviting people.
11:37
[SPEAKER_01]: as I mentioned before, if you've noticed someone tends to always dominate, that's probably someone that you don't want to invite right away until you have already achieved to kind of groove with the other members.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: For my salon, I came up with a kind of like a rules of conversation just that we don't interrupt each other.
11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: We're very respectful and not judgmental.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not there to fix each other.
12:01
[SPEAKER_01]: By laying out these ground rules ahead of time with my invitation,
12:04
[SPEAKER_01]: then people know what they're getting into and if it doesn't sound like it's for them, then they know ahead of time that this might not work for them.
12:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like the kind of person who would receive that invitation, then I don't mean this in a negative way what I'm about to say.
12:17
[SPEAKER_00]: If they receive the invitation, they think that's too formal, like I don't want it to be so structure.
12:22
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
12:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually good that you said what it is, because this is the thing you're creating and it may not be for them.
12:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It'd be like someone coming to a cooking club who hates cooking.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to have an enjoyable time.
12:31
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't
12:32
[SPEAKER_00]: to have those kind of conversations which are different than just regular friend conversations.
12:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's something really cool about it about having a conversation that is structured that does give everybody an opportunity to speak because in a regular hangout with friends.
12:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It isn't so formal.
12:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It isn't so structured and it's not uncommon for there to be always someone who does all the talking and always someone who never shares.
12:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Resentment kind of can build over time, but it would be odd and a group of friends to be like, hey, we're going to establish some ground rules.
13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: The only way you can really do it is when you are starting a thing yourself.
13:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you establish it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually an opportunity.
13:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great opportunity to create something with order.
13:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
13:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so, but I tend to like that when I'm a guest as well.
13:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I like unstructured sometimes, but if it's something like this where really is you're talking about a theme, it allows the guests to not have to scan, or just relax more because you know someone else is moderating it.
13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: No, Linda Murray.
13:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is very important to also always think about if you're creating something what is the guest experience.
13:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is your goal as the host, but yes, what's it going to be like for the guests, and I also love as a guest anything with structure.
13:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to an event tonight, a cooking event that's for our synagogue that's going to have 320 people.
13:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm comfortable to go because there are table assignments.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I would not want to walk into a situation with 320 people, where it was like, okay, find somewhere to sit.
13:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not like I lack confidence.
13:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I plenty of confidence.
13:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I know a lot of people.
14:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been going to this place forever and ever.
14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I belong there.
14:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not an issue in every way.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I literally belong there, like as a membership.
14:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And I
14:06
[SPEAKER_00]: feel I belong.
14:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet, I wouldn't want to walk into a thing that didn't have structure.
14:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's clear who's in charge, just clear where to sit, you know, to make decisions.
14:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And then on a much smaller scale, a small group.
14:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I lead writing groups.
14:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something I talk about that often on the podcast, because it's not really a friend thing.
14:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's like, it's like a work thing, although we really become friends, the people in the group, a lot of them have been there for almost 10 years.
14:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't designed to be that way.
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: My friend Julie and I started them,
14:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It, in theory, at first assuming we would have new people every semester, people stayed in and bonded in and we did have to figure out with some growing pains, how to make sure everybody has a chance to speak.
14:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I've learned through that how to be a moderator.
14:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't start thinking that that's what we would be doing, but that's what we're doing.
14:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We use a timer.
14:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's paying to be there.
14:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So everybody needs to have a chance to speak.
14:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And it makes it so when I'm
15:00
[SPEAKER_00]: a guest at something, whether it's a class, some kind of networking group, I'm in a few networking groups.
15:05
[SPEAKER_00]: When the person in charge doesn't moderate the conversation, I really struggle.
15:10
[SPEAKER_00]: That's their job.
15:11
[SPEAKER_00]: That is, you have to take that job.
15:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm paying to be there.
15:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to listen to someone ask a five minute question.
15:19
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really not a question.
15:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really a comment.
15:21
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the kind of stuff that the moderator has to think about.
15:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
15:24
[SPEAKER_01]: You are the steward of the situation and I agree with you about a few invited people to be part of this.
15:30
[SPEAKER_01]: They are depending on you to make sure it goes well.
15:34
[SPEAKER_01]: If you see the moderator not leading well, it can make you stressed out because you would love that person to stop talking and yet you don't have the authority to really interrupt or if you do what would feel weird and rude.
15:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's something that can be intimidating with hosting or moderating.
15:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nice when you have a co-host, if that's something that intimidates you, then maybe you could have a friend help you with this.
15:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's less worried?
15:58
[SPEAKER_01]: You use the timer.
16:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I now use a little bell.
16:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, like, if I want to move to the next section of the salon, because it can be awkward to interrupt people or to be the rule enforcer, that is part of your role, if you are the moderator, that as your role.
16:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And even if you're awkward, if you just do the best you can,
16:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I think more often than that, people will appreciate it if you do it.
16:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But I agree it is awkward at first.
16:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially if it's friends, it feels like you've invited friends to be part of this thing.
16:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And now all the sudden you're in kind of an opposition of authority, but somebody truly has to be.
16:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess it's funny as we're talking.
16:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm realizing how much I really like structure.
16:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like being at a birthday party where there's no toast.
16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, an adult party.
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're invited to somebody's 50th, somebody's 40th.
16:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just total chaos.
16:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in the case, obviously it could be fun for people like we're at a bar or we're at a bar.
16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if it's like a more of a sit-down dinner kind of thing, if at no point in the evening, at least the guest of honor, the person who's birthdays it is or whoever through the party if it wasn't that person herself or himself, if someone doesn't get up and like acknowledge the reason we're here, I'm sort of like, oh, we just had a restaurant, and we just randomly had a restaurant.
17:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to hear a toast to honor the person who I came here for.
17:11
[SPEAKER_00]: If sometimes there's nothing and I'm like, that was poor planning, that's my opinion.
17:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It only has to be five minutes, not even.
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It just gives the evening a little bit of like, this is what we're here for.
17:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what the moderator of a salon is probably for.
17:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Ty, feel on my class to remind you that, oh, this is what we're here and move us on to the next person.
17:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's not personal.
17:30
[SPEAKER_00]: If you if you moderate and move it around enough, it's now personal.
17:34
[SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting with the bell.
17:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I use the bell to move us along from one section to another, or in the case that someone might be going on longer and I want to shift away from the train of thought that they're on.
17:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I just kind of gently ring my little bell because I think that we use tools that will serve us.
17:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You figured out and I've been doing this now since 2017 and I don't like to get overly structured, but I learned that, oh, I should reserve my chair.
17:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I do this salon in my living room and there's a certain chair that has the best view of all the guests.
18:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I wouldn't do that, but now I just put a little reserved on my chair.
18:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And everyone knows that's my chair.
18:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that repeated structure can also be comforting, because everyone knows the way in and they know the way the evening's going to roll out.
18:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And within the structure, we have ability to go off on tangents if we have time or
18:23
[SPEAKER_01]: have back and forth conversation between salon members if we get into some really cool insight on what we're talking about.
18:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wouldn't want to be so structure that I don't allow people to have those creative moments, but I think that just having the framework is really helpful and it's something that as a salon host, you can think about what you've enjoyed as a guest and what you think your friends would enjoy.
18:45
[SPEAKER_00]: You use the expression in your book that I like to let, and I guess it's really what we're talking about, which is generous authority.
18:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what you're describing.
18:53
[SPEAKER_00]: How would you describe that in your words?
18:55
[SPEAKER_01]: The idea of generous authority is from Priya Parker, who wrote the art of gathering.
19:00
[SPEAKER_01]: She calls it imposing in a way that serves your guests.
19:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think that generous authority is really important to establish and develop.
19:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It might not be a skill you have right away, but as you and I both talked about,
19:15
[SPEAKER_01]: moderate conversations, it's like a muscle that you train really well and it becomes less difficult.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It allows the guests to relax and know that they're being taken care of and for so many people the rest of our life is not like that and we're creating structures for ourselves and creating to do lists and figuring things out and it's really nice or at least my friends in my salon feel to comment that space and know that someone else is
19:40
[SPEAKER_01]: leading the evening and taking care of them.
19:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess that not everybody can be the moderator and not everybody could be, I guess.
19:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually starting a new group also at that same synagogue.
19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't quite decided what the structure is going to be yet, but it's funny coincidence that I'm thinking about this as I was reading your book.
19:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was perfect timing.
20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like you came into my life and that book came into my life right at the perfect time and sometimes I would love to just show off and not be the leader.
20:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also of the attitude of don't wait for the thing you wish existed, you sort of have to create it if it doesn't exist yet.
20:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But it really is nice to just show up.
20:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And be a guest at something that you've been invited to as long as you feel that you're in good hands.
20:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I obviously have a lot of control issues.
20:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I can hear myself as I'm thinking.
20:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And you bring up something in your advice about how to start these groups.
20:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And
20:33
[SPEAKER_00]: more on the conversation style that just how to start the group from the beginning, but how to begin anything and how to end an evening.
20:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you really put a lot of thought into these groups and can you talk about that a little bit so important.
20:47
[SPEAKER_01]: The structure in my salon when people arrive we
20:51
[SPEAKER_01]: have our potluck first.
20:53
[SPEAKER_01]: When you arrive at parties often you feel the energy is a little frenetic.
20:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to settle down.
20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I think about the potluck as a way for us to disperse some of that wonderful social energy we have before we get into the discussion.
21:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Since this happens at my home, I think about when people enter my home, what's the vibe that they're getting when they come in?
21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I try to make my house look particularly beautiful for the salons so that they walk into a space that feels really curated and relaxing.
21:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've created over time a kind of basic structure for this long where they anticipate that they'll come in, be greeted, and then we'll have this potluck dinner before we transition into the conversation.
21:35
[SPEAKER_00]: How does that get decided that who's bringing what?
21:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there emails ahead of time tax, a sign-up genius?
21:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I tend to like that part being unstructured.
21:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just help people to bring whatever they like.
21:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Usually it works out just fine, but people are open to the possibility that we'll have mostly desserts in very little food, very little savory, but you could do what you're saying.
21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Like at some people have thought, oh, well, we should maybe have a Google Doc or something and people let us each know what they're gonna bring.
22:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it depends on you as host.
22:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I do a head of time with the invitation, remind them that there's a potluck at the beginning.
22:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And we also at the end, we have a clothing swap.
22:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So if people are cleaning out their closets, we will trade clothes at the end.
22:17
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so great.
22:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
22:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but the framing of it.
22:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So with the ending, I learned was really important too is to have a, from my group, because we can discuss subjects that can be kind of intense, we have a formal closing
22:33
[SPEAKER_01]: energetically ahead of time of ask people to share quotations on the subject quotations from people who are writers or prominent people who have spoken on the theme in some way and then at the end of my salon we will pass a list around of the quotes and we all read them and then we know
22:53
[SPEAKER_01]: that we've stopped the discussion and we will move on to the clothing swap.
22:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I've also done that at my book club.
23:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I have always have a definite beginning and a definite end on time to respect the people who show up on time and the people who need to leave at the usual time.
23:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And then people can hang out afterwards.
23:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Like at my salon, you can hang out as long as you like afterwards.
23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just want them to know we've stopped that discussion.
23:17
[SPEAKER_01]: We've closed the salon itself and now it's just friend time.
23:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I love everything about all of these ideas and that pat luck at the beginning first is so smart.
23:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I hear what you're saying and I agree about that settling and time that is one thing that's a little hard with my writing group when I think about it is because we're in a space that's not someone's house, we're in a coworking space with a meeting group that people use up until the point where there and people need when we leave.
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: There's that challenge of we get there and people gotten so close and they want to see each other and there is a lot of that frenetic energy and then we go right into the catch up where everyone gets two minutes and I always have to and that's my job.
23:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm happy to do it.
23:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm being paid to do it.
23:55
[SPEAKER_00]: settle everyone it I'm okay yet to get started I know everybody's catching up it's kind of allowed echoey space there are built-in challenges sometimes to the space and that is something to think about when you're planning a thing if you can avoid that like I wouldn't host something at your house if you have a lot of teenagers who are always in and out and you don't have a space where you can close a door maybe someone else needs to be the host or that is when you go to a restaurant yes or all things to
24:19
[SPEAKER_00]: think about.
24:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that there are you are in the book like parking.
24:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Where's everyone parking is there enough for me?
24:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I think about accessibility.
24:27
[SPEAKER_01]: People might have hidden issues.
24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know about.
24:30
[SPEAKER_01]: They might have hearing issues from mobility issues.
24:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So I try to figure that out ahead of time.
24:36
[SPEAKER_01]: My home happens to be that very accessible and as you say like I do turn off all the music and my husband is not there or if he's there he's in a back room behind a closed door.
24:46
[SPEAKER_01]: because it really does feel important to our group anyway to have privacy.
24:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I think because I'm also an event planner, professionally, that I do think about a lot of things around accessibility.
24:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about trouble spots and then we'll wrap it up with what I want to do with the end is have you.
25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll take us through like a typical salon discussion, and we'll use the topic of friendship as an example, because I know it's one in your book, and it's obviously one that's applicable here, but let's do trouble spots, and then we will do that.
25:14
[SPEAKER_01]: The number one trouble spot that I've run into is someone dominating the conversation.
25:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I have those ground rules as I told you I shared the ground rules and then I noticed that there were a couple people that have a really hard time sharing space and conversation.
25:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I learned that the best way to address that was not by giving the whole group another talk about sharing space but being really direct with that person and just letting them know gently
25:43
[SPEAKER_01]: They need to hold back because more introverted people, they need space, they need quiet to speak.
25:49
[SPEAKER_01]: They're often waiting until they're quiet, and if there's never quiet, then they will never speak.
25:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really hard.
25:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to pause on that for a second.
25:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we can not overstate.
25:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is tempting to do exactly what you said tonight.
26:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I think about my just my kids.
26:04
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the first thing that upsets them about a teacher.
26:06
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the first thing they will complain about is when the teacher gets mad at the whole class for something one kid did.
26:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're talking kids but same idea.
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, why should everybody endure the same talk again and again when it's just one person and then on the adult level though, especially if it's someone you're friendly with friends or friendly or gotten to become friendly with you can mean very well you know that their intentions aren't bad to your intentions are for.
26:29
[SPEAKER_00]: the integrity of the whole group.
26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You're trying to protect the whole group.
26:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet it's so hard the person not to feel shame.
26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's something that they've been told before.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably it is.
26:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's hard.
26:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It almost makes you not want to start something.
26:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I hate to say that.
26:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's the kind of stuff that holds people back, I think.
26:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like they don't want to deal with these things.
26:46
[SPEAKER_01]: as a very common problem, I think part of having ground rules is helpful because you can point to the rules in a gentle way without shame, but in my group, it's not a therapy group, so sometimes the theme will lend someone to talking extremely personally, and that can feel really awkward because you don't want to shut them down.
27:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It may be in your group you don't want to shut them down, but it can sometimes be triggering for other people or it could monopolize
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: the conversation or bring the conversation into a realm that you didn't plan on talking about that night.
27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I think when someone is kind of working against your ground rules and it's likely unconsciously just reminding them individually of what you're seeing and what you need to do in your role as the moderator.
27:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You hope to say it's, and this is not personal, but this is what I'm tasked to do in my little
27:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Another thing that groups can run into is if people are late, you might wait until that you know, be like, oh, Sue's gonna be here any minute.
27:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're gonna wait for her.
27:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't do that because I want to respect the people who really made an effort to be here on time.
27:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also have told people, if you're late, don't worry about it.
27:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just coming quietly and join our group.
27:58
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't have a potlock and you're
28:00
[SPEAKER_01]: salon is kind of like we're going to have a salon from 8 to 9 30 then you're going to be strictly conversation then someone coming in late could throw it off.
28:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I also let people know of course if they need to leave early just let me know but just they can just like quietly leave so that it doesn't throw off the rhythm that you start to establish around conversation.
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and that, especially the lateness part, which is more disruptive, I think than leaving early, although leaving early could be late if the person makes a whole scene about it.
28:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, bye.
28:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much.
28:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're in the middle of a conversation here, but the coming and late, it is hard as a moderator because you're like, should I catch this person up?
28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they going to now be in the dark for the next hour and a half if we don't sort of say, oh, we already started talking about XYZ so-and-so shared that.
28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it may be once in a while, but you wouldn't want to make a habit of it because it does not incentivize people to get there on time.
28:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And if someone was laid a lot, then I would talk to them and find out what's going on.
28:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Just throw things off like you would said, I wouldn't catch them up necessarily, but I would let them know where we are in the discussion.
28:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And things happen.
29:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so I'm not trying to be like so authoritative and unyielding, but you're kind of trying to deal with the whole group and treat the whole group in a certain way.
29:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Was there another one you were going to have, and then I kind of got over excited about the
29:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, you had mentioned phones and the presence of phones.
29:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Just having a phone out on a table has been proven in studies to affect conversation.
29:23
[SPEAKER_01]: People notice it, they get distracted.
29:25
[SPEAKER_01]: They can have their phone in their pocket on vibrate, but we don't have any phones out.
29:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Because just inadvertently, people might be looking at them.
29:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It hasn't been an issue for our group, but I have heard that it can be an issue that people be checking their phones.
29:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just so common today,
29:40
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of have it out.
29:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's something as a host you might watch out for.
29:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's an extremely reasonable rule to have in your pocket that way of somebody really needs to get in touch with you.
29:49
[SPEAKER_00]: They know they can, but not having it out because it is absolutely true that seeing a phone.
29:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel it.
29:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if I see someone else's phone, it just makes me think about my phone.
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It really doesn't, and it's so hard to put it away.
30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you've gone to the trouble of putting away with someone else has it out,
30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Complicates the whole conversation even just one on one just when you're out with a friend when you're out of walk with a friend Awareness of how much our phones are I don't a whole episode just on that, but it's it's important to end
30:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So on our last note here, a typical salon discussion, you meet once a month.
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We made it every few months, actually.
30:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like three or four times a year.
30:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's it.
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not taking on a tremendous amount of month to month, but over the course of a year, you've met three or four times.
30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And then over a year, as you said, you started in 2017, you really got to know people.
30:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So what would a typical meeting look like we said already, we start with the
30:41
[SPEAKER_00]: hot lot that was just loosely organized not, you know, people know to bring food, but they bring what they bring, and then that's about 45 minutes and then what?
30:50
[SPEAKER_01]: The next thing that I like to do, I don't do these all ways, but I like to do it is I create a questionnaire around the topic.
30:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I have questionnaires with a number of questions that we're going to dig into later, and I have them on little clipboards, and I pass them out, and for about 10 minutes,
31:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And it really studies the energy in the room that they get focused.
31:11
[SPEAKER_01]: They fill it out.
31:12
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the questionnaire for them to bring home.
31:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to look at their answers.
31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just to like spark thought about the topic.
31:18
[SPEAKER_01]: After the questionnaire, I made divide us up into small groups of two or three or four people to talk about the topic.
31:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is really nice for people who
31:28
[SPEAKER_01]: tend to be more introverted and it's also nice if you're talking about a subject that's very personal because sometimes talking about something personal in the larger group right away can be intimidating.
31:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'll bring us all into the big group to talk about the theme.
31:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are a number of conversation formats that you can use which I mentioned in the book.
31:49
[SPEAKER_01]: The one I tend to use is called Around Robin Discussion, where I'll ask a question of the group.
31:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one by one, we'll go around and answer the question, well, I'll have a few minutes to answer it.
32:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes they'll be back and forth between salon members, but generally, we go all the way around.
32:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So everyone has time to talk about it.
32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we'll do that for several questions.
32:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, we're getting closer to the end of the salon.
32:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I will then use the quotations that have been contributed by the salon members.
32:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll pass around the quotations and every one will read one of the quotes.
32:25
[SPEAKER_01]: This is sounds very type A and intimidating, but I like to do little gifts for them to take with them that are usually related to the song theme.
32:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll make little bookmarks or have candles or something for them.
32:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I'll pass that out.
32:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And officially end this along after that we have a new element the last couple of years where we have the clothing swap.
32:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So people have brought clothing in a pile and we share that clothing swap has turned out to be this really sweet element because now not only have we become really good friends we're actually wearing each other's clothes.
32:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I could not love this more.
32:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so the people probably show up in something.
33:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember when you gave this to me?
33:02
[SPEAKER_00]: What if two people want the same thing?
33:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a way to deal with that?
33:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I step away from the whole clothing swap as the host.
33:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I just let it happen.
33:10
[SPEAKER_01]: If I do I something I want, I have to work on myself to let it go.
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of nice.
33:15
[SPEAKER_01]: We add this element several years in.
33:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We're all really good friends now at this point.
33:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's no arguing over it.
33:22
[SPEAKER_01]: But we do know certain people are very, very stylish in our salon.
33:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I see them coming with a pile of clothes, I will immediately have desire.
33:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, I stay to the back.
33:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's probably nice for you to have one part of the evening that you're just like, I'm out.
33:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys handle it, like I'm not dealing with that.
33:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Linda Marie, this was so fun to be able to talk to you, especially because I just so recently read the book.
33:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I read the book for my listeners, but I also read it for my own use.
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: The group I'm doing might have some journaling aspect to it.
33:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And this isn't like a class I'm teaching.
33:53
[SPEAKER_00]: No one's paying for this one.
33:54
[SPEAKER_00]: This is different.
33:55
[SPEAKER_00]: This is more of a community.
33:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And I got a kind of thing.
33:57
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't.
33:58
[SPEAKER_00]: in the writing world, but because what part of what I bring to it is my history is a writing teacher.
34:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We might do some journaling with it.
34:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not quite sure.
34:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm figuring it out still, but I am really thinking about a lot.
34:09
[SPEAKER_00]: How everyone will have a chance to speak or not.
34:11
[SPEAKER_00]: What if people don't want to talk?
34:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there maybe new people each time?
34:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So there may always be someone news that's different than something people sign up for and continue to come.
34:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So I got all that.
34:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got to really think there's, you know, different than a salon, but there's some overlap in
34:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt that the more I think about it ahead of time, the easier the event itself goes.
34:33
[SPEAKER_01]: You built the structure, you know what to anticipate.
34:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, things can always not work out as you wish, but I think that the planning always helps a lot.
34:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great tip.
34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you again for being here.
34:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that you did a topic on friendship.
34:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the book, so I'll have the link to the show notes where everyone can find you, including by the book, as I say at the end of every episode, come back next week, everyone, when our friendships are going
34:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Ah, hello.
34:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this has never happened to me before, but in the middle of editing this episode, I realized the last one minute was totally silent.
35:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I could see Linda Marie's mouth moving.
35:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I could see my mouth moving.
35:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And as you know, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while,
35:12
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the end of the episode where I say come back next week when our friendships are going while we are happier all around in Linda Marie said goodbye and thanks for having her.
35:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's all that you missed but as long as I had to pop back on here and a totally different outfit on the day I was editing this with no makeup on you can always come on to YouTube at Do your need of friendship on YouTube to see these episodes on video and see this moment.
35:34
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't opportunity now to say something I didn't say at the time which is if you have a
35:39
[SPEAKER_00]: discussion group, a salon of some kind of any kind of topic, or you're thinking of starting one now after hearing this episode, I'd love to hear from you.
35:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Come to say, hi, you can email me anytime at Nina Bazzin at Gmail, or you can come to the Facebook group at Dear Nina the group on Facebook.
35:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find me through my sub-stack at Dear Nina.subdack.com.
35:58
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a newsletter
36:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Host a lot of newsletters those of us who are on their throw around the word sub stack a lot.
36:06
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not a custom to that website You're like what are they talking about these people who say that it's really just a site that houses the newsletters It functions as more than just a hosting site, which is really just technical and I won't bore you with all of that But there's messages through there are on my social media sites.
36:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I do your need enough friendship
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Lots of ways to let me know, did you start a group?
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you thinking of starting a group?
36:27
[SPEAKER_00]: A salon?
36:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so different than a full cloud as we've been saying.
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Different than a cooking group or any of those other examples.
36:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I am so appreciative of the memory being with me here today.
36:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And like I was saying, you'll find more info in the show notes and come back next week.
36:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Looking forward to the next one too.
36:45
[SPEAKER_00]: See you soon.
36:46
[UNKNOWN]: Bye!