Latest / Recovering Out Loud / I “Should” be Doing Better Sober and in Recovery

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I “Should” be Doing Better Sober and in Recovery · Recovering Out Loud

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Welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud Podcast, the
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show where we get real about mental health and addiction.
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If you or someone you love is struggling, please reach out to
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me on any social media platform. At Recovering Out Loud Pod, you
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are no longer alone. Yes, fucking crossing our legs
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like fucking. Oh, gentlemen.
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Gentlemen. Oh, it's unseasonably cold at
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this time of year. Hello.
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I got a guy coming in after he was going to talk about
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gambling, which is good because we've been wanting to talk about
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gambling for a while. Yeah.
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Are you on social media? Like, do you, do you look at
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social media? Yeah, I got this app yesterday
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that blocks me from going on social media because it was,
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it's like my new, it's becoming my new addiction now, right?
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And when you start creating, I'll call it like the way I do,
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you're always looking for inspiration, right, from people.
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But it's so easy to turn that into a fucking rabbit hole of
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Instagram. And I don't know about you, but
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I've never scrolled on Instagram and come away feeling better.
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Like even if you get, it's really weird, even if you get
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the motivational shit, the fucking yeah like that hit me.
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The spiritual whatever the recovery.
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The the tip that you learn from it, I always leave putting my
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phone down just feeling worse after yeah.
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I mean, it's, it's, it's a, it's a coping mechanism that, you
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know, we use and, and, and just how much exposure there is to
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it, right? It's become like this crutch for
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people in, in, in our modern society to be, to be dealing
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with, right. And the biggest thing is like,
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you know, when we self seek to try to, you know, get
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inspiration, get, you know, ideas, get creativity, get
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content, what ends up happening is, you know, there's a piece of
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our brain that really gravitates towards the toxic comparison.
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Like I'm not, I'm not doing, I'm not doing this as good as this
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guy. What?
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What's wrong with? Me, I must be a piece of.
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Shit, I must, I must, I must be in, you know, inadequate,
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inadequate, inferior, right or, you know, you know, yeah.
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And then you end up getting caught in, in this like rabbit
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hole of, of, you know, other things, whether it's, you know,
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women or, or clothing or money or like, you know, and again, we
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got to remember, like, like the stuff that we see on, on social
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media, a lot of it is, is, is false.
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A highlight reel. It's a highlight reel, right?
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We don't really know. We, we see on the surface of,
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of, of how somebody is, quote UN quote, living, right?
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Which is a, a huge thing, especially in, in recovery in
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the beginning, right? Because we just gravitate and
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fixate towards, that's an illusion, right?
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We want to get into that elusive perspective that one day we're
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going to get to that place and that's going to bring us the
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sense of, of happiness, right? And for a lot of folks, I mean,
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including myself too, it's like drugs and alcohol.
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It's very fleeting, momentary, unsustainable, you know, and you
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know, so even when you have your own business and, and you have
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your own sort of operation that you're working through and, and
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dealing with, you know, we try to gauge and gravitate towards
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these, these, you know, sequences of inspiration and,
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and, and, and ideas and creativity.
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But what ends up happening a lot of times too, is depending on
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the day that you're, you know, how, how you wake up or when you
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wake up on the, what side of the bed in the morning, you know,
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you, you can, you can turn that into a negative, right?
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And you can sort of use that experience and, and create your
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narrative with it, right? And then, you know, you're sort
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of operating day-to-day or, or moment to moment based on that
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last sort of sequence and thought pattern that you had and
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how you sort of just like, you know, so it's like, you know,
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for you, it's like, you know, you're seeing somebody maybe do
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a a podcast that's a little bit different or, you know, you see
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that they have a lot of viewers, a lot of followings and you're
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like, well, how do I get there? And then it's like you make an
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impulsive decision based on emotion, right?
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And we, we, we know the, the rule with us as addicts, it's
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like when we make decisions based on emotion, it typically
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doesn't go well, right? It because it's, you know,
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you're, you're, you're trying to sort of fix a, a feeling, right?
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We fixed feelings for a long time with drugs and alcohol use
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outside things to fix my insides, use outside things to
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fix my. I think most of the time it's
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fear too, right? You can always, I mean, it talks
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about it in recovery literature, but.
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It can almost always be traced back to fear.
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And what does it say? It's like I'm I'm afraid of
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losing something I have or not getting something I want right.
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And usually, I mean, it fluctuates between both, but I,
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I like what you said. You said that you're comparing
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material things, but you made a good point too, where it's like,
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I can also compare my mental health to other people, right?
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Like this guy's talking about, I don't know, some journaling
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trick or something that he does every morning.
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He meditates or whatever. And then I'm like, fuck, I'm not
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doing that. You know, I should be doing
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that. And then I'm over comparing.
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I'm hyper responding. The the I was telling you about
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that modern wisdom podcast. He did an episode of everything
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he does these like yearly recaps of what he's learned from all
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the guests. And the guy is just fluent with
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his words. Like he's just the way he like
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self analyzes himself and and talks about what the narrative
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in his head is just it's perfect.
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Like he is very fluent with that and he talks about he talks
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about hyper, hyper responders to advice hyper responders, right?
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So the people that generally need to hear the advice online.
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So whether it's I need to be doing this or I should be doing
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this in my recovery, just tips to make us better.
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Whatever advice, the people that need to hear it generally aren't
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hearing it, but the people that are probably already doing it
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are hyper responding to the advice and then they're
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overdoing it, right. So if I'm, if I'm a people
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pleaser and I'm online and I'm, I'm like, how to not be a people
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pleaser or how to, you know, be confident with yourself.
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I'm already doing OK in that area.
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I just don't, I, I don't think I am.
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So that when I see the advice come up, I'm like, well I gotta
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and then I'm now I'm over compensating for my people
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pleasing skills and then now I'm being an asshole.
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Like that's just an example. Right.
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Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that you know, the
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accessibility that we have to information like that where it's
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like, OK, like who's doing the self appraisal?
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How who's doing the appraisal, you know of, of how I'm doing in
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these areas, right. Because when I leave it to
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myself, I'm typically gonna be the one that's gonna kick the
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shit out of myself, you know, and be the hardest of myself,
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right? So I, I have to ask other people
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in that, right? Because like you said, when I
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start feeling this type of way about myself, whether it's my
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ability to feel like I'm inadequate, whether it's, you
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know, just just a thought that I have 'cause I still have, you
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know, negative thinking about myself.
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I still compare myself to other people.
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And then it's like, well, here I am trying to fix it.
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Well, what's a better way to access information to try to fix
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something? Well, I'm going to look on
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online. Oh, online is telling me that I,
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you know, if I pray five times a day, I'm going to be this
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different person. Or if I just, you know, eat a
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specific diet or, or food groups that I'm going to feel, you
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know, amazing by myself. Now, truth be told, sure, you
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know, it might work, But if I'm, you know, I have to look at what
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is it that I'm trying to fix here?
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Because if it's me trying to just, you know, change the way
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that I, you know, operate with my weight and my health, you
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know, and and it's not a direct reflection of who I am as a
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person, then OK, that is a something that I can do.
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But when I start making it about me trying to fix myself, and
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here is all the things that I'm going to do in order to fix
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myself, that's where I start going down a dangerous path.
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And you're in like a a vicious cycle, right?
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Chasing the dragon. Chasing the dragon.
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You can chase the dragon without drugs and alcohol.
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Yeah, exactly right. So, you know, and then we become
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obsessive, right? And you know, someone once told
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me that obsession is a direct reflection of my dissatisfaction
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with my current circumstances, right.
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So when I get into obsession, why am I being so obsessed about
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something? It's because I'm trying to fix
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of a void inside of me to the point where I get obsessive over
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something, right. And we know that obsession for
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you know, more more anybody really is is not a good thing.
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But you, you know, you, you look at the way that we view things
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as, as people in recovery and you know, the way that our minds
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operate and we will take things to the extreme, black or white,
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right? To the point where it could
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start making my life unmanageable again, right?
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So like today, you know, you know, for guys like myself and
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you for me, anyways, I'll speak for myself is it's not about
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drugs and alcohol. It's, it's, it's how do I have
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balance in my life to do so? I, because I can take anything
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and let it become manageable in my life.
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You know, whether it's trying to make more money, whether it's
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trying to be the best at something, whether it's me
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comparing myself to, you know, Co workers, people in the
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industry, seeing what they're doing.
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And how do I do that right? Like, you know, I, I, I go
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through those moments all the time.
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I mean, should I, I just had in it, you know, I have AI had
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experience over that last week, like seeing what, you know,
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other, you know, treatment centers are doing and how other,
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you know, people I've worked with in the past, what they're
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doing, how they present themselves, what they're
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posting, what they're not posting.
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And I'm like, shit, I, I need to, I need to change how I how I
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do things right. And and and and it's because,
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you know, you know, I'm uncomfortable, I can be
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uncomfortable with without getting that like approval, you
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know, of like somebody else saying, hey, man, like you're.
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Doing a good job. You know, or like whatever the
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case is, right. But again, that's my own
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headspace and my own way of how I'm viewing things and, you
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know, not feeling like I'm, I'm adequate enough, right?
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And you know, and it's still, it's still something that, that,
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that, that comes up. And it could be a a a big
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indicator with where I'm at home recovery.
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The, the problem for me when I, when I think about that, 'cause
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I think about two things when you're talking, I'm like, how
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does that affect my life negatively?
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And then what's the solution? Those are my two thoughts,
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right? And so I'll speak for myself.
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I also, I agree with you and it's not about, I haven't
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thought about using in a while. When I do, it's, it's more so
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that illusory freedom that drugs gave me.
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Like I kind of, that's what I miss is that state of illusory
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freedom where I can just shut this phone off.
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I don't have to listen, I don't have to have responsibilities.
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That's what my brain tells me is good about.
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Drugs yeah well, again, it's it's that it's that whole idea
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of like how do I want to look at responsibility in my life today,
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right. What I'm using responsibility is
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a burden when I'm in recovery. Responsibility is a privilege,
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right. Because you know, when we look
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at, you know, I think I've said this on your on your podcast
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before, it's like, you know, I, I wished for responsibility, I
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wished for dependability. I wished for, you know, people
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to like look at me and say, OK, this guy's a functional person
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to be useful, to be useful, right?
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And, you know, we could, we quickly forget that when things
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can get hard, when, you know, things are might not be going
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the way that you thought that they were going to be going, you
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know, patience, all of those things, right.
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So it, it's just, you know, when, when, when you don't feel
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like that's happening. And it when you, you add in, you
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know, different elements from circumstances, it's like you put
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yourself in this like rat race of like negative thinking, you
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know, negative connotations. And the glass is always half
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empty. The glass is always half empty.
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You're. Never noticing the gifts in your
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life? Yeah, the other thing too.
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It does when I'm in that rumination for me is it doesn't
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allow new creativity, new positive thoughts, new service
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thoughts. I can't be useful if I'm
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constantly thinking about those things.
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So that for me, that's the biggest problem is like if I'm
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comparing, you know, comparison is the thief of joy.
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We always, I always love that one, but it's like I'm always
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trying to. The rat race is a good example.
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I can't allow new productive thoughts to come into my mind or
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ideas or service really. How can I be of service?
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And then so I, I want to hear how you kind of deal with this.
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But for me, it's like I've been getting a lot of mileage lately
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out of listening to certain recovery tapes where people give
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talks and also workshops a lot about spirituality.
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I've been leaning into spirituality lately.
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Like full stop, man. It's been saving my ass.
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And I just, I don't know about you, but when I'm connected and
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I feel tapped in in the morning or throughout the day, I'm
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talking to my higher power. It's it just I just ease and
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comfort. That's really what it is, right?
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So I've been been getting a lot of mileage out of this.
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Like problem comes up, emotion comes up.
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I'm literally I'm a visual person.
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I'm picturing myself like grabbing the problem with my
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hands and just like turning it over to the universe and saying,
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can you work on this for me? Because I'm not qualified to
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work on this. Plus I have no control over this
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outcome, whatever the situation may be.
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I'll check back in with you tomorrow.
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I love the metaphor of, you know, going on an airplane and
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when you check your bags, you put all your problems in that
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bag and then you get on the the plane.
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When I land, I'll, I'll, I'll come back to you.
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And then you have a different perspective when you come back
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to it. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, yeah,
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it's a, it's a good sort of model to to, to, to understand,
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right. But again, it's consistency,
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right? Like I pray in the morning
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everyday and I and I try to get myself tapped in.
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Do I miss days? Sure.
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Do I, you know, get up some days and feel like, well, what what
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am I doing here? And I got to I got to do this
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today. Sure, right, but again, I have
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to hear other people's messages in order for me to understand
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that I don't I'm not alone here, right.
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So you're right, like, like lots of meetings going to meetings,
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you know, hearing people's, you know, message.
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And it's like, you know, even the other day I, I zoomed in on
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a, on a meeting out in West and you know, somebody's taking
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their, their two year medallion. And you know, sometimes I need
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to hear, you know, the, the message of like how simple it
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is, right, Because in the beginning, even though it's so
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difficult to manage, it's just how do I not use drugs and
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alcohol, right? I look at that today and say,
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oh, you know, that kind of felt like it was, it was, it was, it
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was simple, but it hard, but it, but the concept of it was
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simple. And then it's like, OK, so I
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have some, some some time under my belt.
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And it's like now, like, I'm not saying, you know, drug addiction
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isn't it's a it's a real problem.
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But now I'm dealing with like what normal living people in
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society are dealing with. Rogers.
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Rogers. Yeah, yeah, I was just, I, I'm
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late for this podcast because I've been on the phone for an
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hour and 25 minutes trying to, you know, navigate through some
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issues that that happened with. And it's just like testing my
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patience, right? So, you know, I, I know just
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having this conversation right now with you is putting me out
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at a more ease, right? Which is important because, you
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know, my head goes to like, I'm not fucking doing this.
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I got to, I got to deal with this.
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And like, I'm sorry, I, you know, but like, I'm glad that,
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you know, I, I told him, I said, I got to call you guys back
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because I have another commitment.
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And you know, before I wouldn't do things like that.
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I would just, you know, it didn't matter who, what, what
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commitment it made to anybody really.
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I would just do my own thing because it's about me and my own
16:20
self, right. And, you know, so like hearing,
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hearing other people's messages, like, again, it's, it's things
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that I know, but I have to hear it to feel like I'm reinforced
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again, right. And you know, if I'm in a place
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where I'm feeling like I'm spiritually content, I will take
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that information and be like, OK, like this is something
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that's useful for me because I need to hear it.
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If I don't and I'm not, and I'm not present with it, then I can
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say it's another guy yammering about the same shit I've been
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hearing over. And over again for the last
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seven years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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You know, so yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely something that,
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you know, we, we look at and again, you know, just like
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looking at this last year for myself, like doing a real self
17:04
appraisal, like there's, there's, I got a lot of work to
17:06
do on myself still, right? And because other things come up
17:10
all the time, right? The way that I handle
17:13
constructive feedback, the way that I handle criticism, the way
17:16
that, you know, again, like that, not trying to compare
17:20
myself to other people and what they're doing on a daily basis
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there. There's so much, right?
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And again, like I, I got to remember that I got to put
17:28
recovery first in every area of my life, right?
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And if I don't do that, then you know, I'm, I'm going to, you
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know, get the consequences that come with it, right?
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Whether they're good or they're bad, right?
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So, you know, that's, it's so important to remember that,
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right? And anyway, so I was listening
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to a guy speak the other day about, you know, how he just got
17:48
two years and you know, the father of the guy gets on stage
17:54
there, it's a podium meeting. And you know, the guy goes, the
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guy goes, you know, after, after two years, we finally trust you,
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finally gave you the key. You can go water, you know, you
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can go garden and, and, and he can come take care of the house.
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We're going to Florida. And you know, you're here's a
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here's the keys and, and, and you can go into this house now
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and we trust you 2 years, right? It's like, well, people want
18:25
that right away. People think that just because
18:27
they go to treatment that we can trust her again.
18:30
No, but it takes consistency. You got to, you got to walk
18:33
through it, right? Like at the end of the day, you
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know, one of my, my colleagues, he says the best.
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He says, you know, I, I look, I used to look at people's mouths.
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It's like now I look at their feet and right, I can't listen
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to someone's mouth. I got to look at their feet,
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watch their feet because it's action, right?
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And, and I thought that that was such a simple sort of concept
18:56
because it's like, I trust you again, right?
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And it's like, yeah, it's, it just brings it back to the basic
19:02
actuality of like, yeah, like I remember, I remember having to
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go through that, right? And my family trusts me today,
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right? And that's such a a huge gift.
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But I forget about that because I have all these other things
19:16
going on in my life, right? I got, I got to remember that I,
19:18
you know, my family and I have a good relationship today and my,
19:21
my dad trusts me again. And it's, and it's, and it's,
19:24
it's, it's, I forget, right? And it's so simple, but I have
19:28
to hear other people going through that experience to take
19:30
it back to myself to be like, OK, like I'm this is where I'm
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grateful for that. What a blessing.
19:34
What a blessing. Yeah, I got goosebumps as you
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were saying that, 'cause I think every.
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I'll speak for myself, but I think most addicts and
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Alcoholics can relate to that, that it reminds me too of how
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much I dragged my family through the mud and my wife.
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And it to your point, it's like in the one of my favorite parts
19:52
in the recovery literature, it talks about that gives the
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metaphor of the guy going underground during the tornado
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and then he comes up and everything's a mess.
20:00
The tornado just wiped out everything.
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But he comes back and he's like, what's wrong here, guys?
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Like what's going on? What's you know, everything's
20:06
OK. And that's what happens when we,
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a lot of us. That's what happened for me
20:09
anyways. Especially relapsing after eight
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years and coming back and going back home.
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I came back and I was like, OK, guys, like why aren't you all
20:16
here with my level of healing, right?
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But I forget my wife was calling the police stations every night.
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My wife was calling the morgue. Like those were things that were
20:25
actually happening that she told me after.
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And I to your point, I forget and I just expect everyone to
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just kind of. Be here with me, right 'cause
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I've been working on myself. Yeah, let's go, guys.
20:37
We think about it too. Like, you know, the, the holiday
20:39
is coming up, Christmas is coming up, right.
20:41
One of the things that we teach at work is for, for clients is,
20:45
you know, we have a group called Holiday hurdles and a lot of
20:49
people, because, you know, it's like that, that entitlement is
20:53
just so, so pertinent and pertinent.
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And it's just, you know, it's like, oh, my family wants me to
21:01
come home for holidays. Like let's roll the red fucking
21:04
carpet out, put all the alcohol away, lock it all up because I'm
21:10
coming home. Me, right.
21:13
And it's like, I, I see this all the time.
21:15
And it's like, you know, people are like, yeah, my family needs
21:20
me. It's like, yeah, they, they do
21:22
need you. They need a break.
21:24
That's what they need, you know, and, and it's like, you know, we
21:29
so again, like in the beginning stages of like trying to get,
21:32
you know, clean and sober and being in treatment, It's still
21:34
about you and, and, and, and, and your feelings and you're
21:36
this and you're not really, you know, some, a lot of times you,
21:39
you sort of don't take into account everybody else and how
21:43
they're doing and how they're feeling and what they're going
21:46
to go through, right? Because it's a, it's a big deal,
21:48
right? And, you know, I have families
21:50
all the time that tell me it's like, I, I feel so like, I don't
21:54
know how I feel like, I feel just like, like paralyzed, you
21:58
know, I, I don't want to feel like this, but this is what's
22:00
coming up. Like, you know, Jimmy's coming
22:03
home for, for Christmas and I, I don't know how I feel about
22:07
that. I feel nervous.
22:08
I feel anxious. What if you run?
22:10
You know, what if he takes off and goes, you know, to the.
22:12
So it's like, why even put your family through that kind of
22:16
stuff? Yeah.
22:16
Like it's, it's, it's the holidays, but it's one year,
22:20
right? Sacrifice, right, so that you
22:23
can, the following year and the years after that, show up and be
22:26
somebody that's functional. And you give yourself enough of
22:30
a rapport and they give yourself enough of a track record to
22:33
allow your family to have some ease and comfort and, and take
22:36
that anxiety away, right. And, you know, I think that
22:39
that's such a, a, a tried and true model.
22:42
But again, you're right, it all comes back to fear.
22:45
Everything comes back to fear. Fear of missing out, fear, fear
22:48
of, you know, not belonging, fear of and, and, and you can do
22:51
the same thing with your family where it's like those same sort
22:54
of feelings resonate with you, right?
22:56
So if you feel like that with your family, imagine when you're
22:59
out in day-to-day and, and feeling like, like that when
23:02
you're, you know, talking about your professional life, where
23:04
you're talking about your relationships with your friends,
23:06
relationships with, you know, girlfriends and boyfriends,
23:09
like, you know, that it magnetizes even more to the
23:13
extreme because this is not your family, right?
23:15
So if you're feeling like this with, with family, Can you
23:18
imagine how you're going to feel with other people, right?
23:21
That you don't know and you don't know, right?
23:23
Or, or you're trying to fit in or you're trying to feel like
23:27
you're a part of, right? And that's, I think that's the
23:29
beautiful thing about recovery is, you know, I learned early on
23:33
that I need to walk through this with other people so I can feel
23:38
like I belong, right? Even if it's for that specific
23:42
time in my life, I'm going to lean into the program, I'm going
23:45
to lean into other addicts and Alcoholics trying to get better
23:48
on the same sort of wavelength, on the same path.
23:51
That is where I feel like I belong, right?
23:54
And then as you get sober and, and you get connected and
23:57
you're, you know, doing this and you're helping other people,
23:59
other people are helping you, you know, you start to see it
24:02
trickle into your other relationships in your life with
24:04
your family, your friends, your business, your work, your, you
24:07
know, your romantic relationships, all of those
24:11
things, right? And it's powerful, yeah.
24:14
It's powerful it's like building skills, right.
24:18
I got this question on Instagram when I when we were supposed to
24:21
meet last time I and somebody this is I'm happy you brought
24:24
this up because the holidays are a stressful time for a lot of
24:26
people coming back from using drinking, coming back from
24:30
rehab. What's something that you tell
24:32
family members some tips family member has to have new alcoholic
24:37
someone struggling come home for holidays.
24:40
What's a good sort of piece of advice that you give people?
24:46
I mean, it's really just about, you know, I mean, every
24:51
situation is different depending on the circumstance, but it's
24:54
really just about, you know, it goes back to the three CS that
24:59
we tell families. You can't control it, can't cure
25:01
it, didn't 'cause it right. So I think a lot of times what
25:04
happens with family members is they try to over micromanage or
25:08
over, you know, indulge or, or, or, or, or overcompensate, you
25:13
know, and it's just, it's, it's very difficult to tell a mom or
25:17
dad, Hey, like take a step back up from, from, from your son or
25:21
your daughter right now, because you know, that can put them in
25:24
a, in a, in a cycle of like attention.
25:27
And, and that's where like that control piece comes in, right?
25:29
Because as a, as a parent, you know, I still, I go through this
25:33
with my kid all the time. I'm trying to control because I
25:36
want the best outcome for them, right?
25:38
But what I do when I'm trying to control as I inhibit their
25:41
ability to really see things for themselves and I give them the
25:44
ability to have a little bit of wiggle room and grace, right?
25:47
And I think that's what I, you know, tell people is, you know,
25:50
just just learn how to, you know, just be the way that it is
25:55
right now and, and don't make any sort of assumptions on how
25:57
someone's going to be, even though their track record proves
26:00
otherwise, right. And, you know, if you're going
26:03
to have somebody home for the holidays, if you're going to be
26:06
in a place where it's like anxiety and riddled like fear
26:10
and all of these things, then why even have that in the 1st
26:13
place? You know, set the proper
26:15
boundary of like, you know, we don't feel comfortable with you
26:18
coming home today. And that's OK.
26:20
That doesn't mean we don't love you.
26:22
We just, we don't trust you yet, right?
26:25
And that's going to take some time.
26:27
But you know, if they, they do come home for the holidays, I, I
26:30
just, you know, it's just about treating them like, like you
26:34
would always treat them and not worry or micromanage about the
26:38
little things. And again, it's out of your
26:39
control what someone, what someone does, right?
26:43
And the more that you try to control outcomes for for other
26:47
people, the more you're going to feel like like expectations were
26:52
or not were broken and it's going to make you feel
26:55
disappointed. Yeah, You know, I was, I was
26:59
having lunch with my mom yesterday and she still goes to
27:04
the rehab that I went to. She goes to the family program
27:07
there. She loves it because she sees
27:09
people. Same thing.
27:10
Probably the same reason why we go to our groups is you see
27:14
these people come in and it reminds you how broken and how
27:16
dishevelled and how distraught you were.
27:19
My mom wasn't sleeping right? And she she reminds me like I
27:22
forget the all the nights that I'm just doing my thing, like
27:25
what? I'm not hurting anyone else,
27:27
right. The common, you probably hear
27:28
that all the time in the rehab, but she was dealing with another
27:32
mom that you know, I don't know where my son is.
27:34
I don't know what to do. And the only thing you really
27:36
can do, and this is what she did for me is like that that check
27:39
in, right? I'm here when you're ready, I'm
27:41
here. But the more you try to control,
27:45
like you said, and the at the end of the day is like when I'm
27:47
controlling other people, I'm projecting my fears onto them
27:51
and my inadequacies and my whole that you talked about my void,
27:55
I'm I'm projecting it onto them. So that that's the hardest part.
27:58
That's the hardest part about recovery.
27:59
And also I think from the parent parental side is to my two
28:04
favorite words, let go right, Surrender and and let go.
28:08
Yeah, I mean how it's a it's it's, it's a simple concept, but
28:13
how do you combat that when you're so emotional and your
28:17
soul, you're living in fear? It's like let go.
28:21
I'm I'm full of fear here. I can't let go.
28:25
If I let go and something happens, boy, am I going to kick
28:28
myself, right. But again, it's like if I don't
28:33
let go and I try to keep pushing, what if something
28:36
happens? You know, how about that, right.
28:40
So it's like, you know, I think for family members of loved ones
28:45
that are struggling with addiction, I think it's almost
28:47
like a trial and everything. It's like, well, I already
28:49
tried, you know, taking away their, their, their access to
28:53
money or kicking them out of the house or taking away their car
28:57
or whatever the case is. And that hasn't helped.
29:00
And then I had other people say, well, I've tried to take a step
29:03
back and allow the person to help to make decisions and that
29:07
hasn't worked either. So what do I do now?
29:09
Right. And no, you don't know, Aiden,
29:12
it's, it's tough as a, as a family member to, to see that
29:17
for somebody because all you want is that person to get
29:20
better, but you have no control over it.
29:21
Like you can help and be a part of the, the process.
29:24
And what I've seen over my years of doing this is that when the
29:28
family is involved with the recovery piece and learning
29:31
about recovery concepts and being a part of this journey
29:36
universally, the transition is a lot more smoother.
29:39
Yeah. When When they remain open
29:41
minded. When they remain open minded.
29:43
Teachable, right, just like, just like us, right and, and
29:46
allowing that to happen. And you know, it's, it's, it's,
29:50
it's tough, right? Like, you know, I had a kid the
29:54
other day, you know, you know, his mom very, very tough on him
30:00
and, and understand this, the dad is a little bit less.
30:02
And you know, kid, kid somehow swindles his father to, to send
30:07
him 50 bucks and he goes and uses and it's like, fuck it, I'm
30:12
talking to my father. I'm such an idiot.
30:15
He says, and I'm like, you're not an idiot.
30:17
You know, you're just, you want to give people the, you want to
30:19
give him the benefit of the doubt because you really want to
30:21
believe that he's better and changing.
30:24
And it's, it's a learning experience for you, right?
30:26
And unfortunately, the only way that we really learn through
30:29
things, you know, us in general, but even family is a lot of
30:32
times through trial and error and pain and pain and pain,
30:36
right? Whereas we forget about how
30:40
painful the scenario is and the situation was.
30:42
And we go back to that euphoric recall of like, yeah, it wasn't
30:45
that bad. This wasn't that bad.
30:47
That wasn't that bad. Using wasn't that bad.
30:48
Drinking wasn't that bad. Stealing and lying and cheating
30:51
wasn't that bad. Is is the reason for that as
30:54
simple as this is the way I like to think of it, because I've
30:57
I've found since being in recovery that everyone has that
30:59
that forgetter thing like that is a universal trait that we all
31:03
sort of share is what I found forgetting how bad it was
31:06
without being connected right. If one, it's one of the reasons
31:09
we stay connected to like to your point to remember how bad
31:11
it was. I like to think of it as my
31:14
attic brain is just trying to get me to use right.
31:16
It's that's more simple for me. Do you think there's like more
31:18
science behind it or like a more?
31:22
Yeah. I mean, are there reasons why
31:23
that is? I mean, yes, it's like, you
31:26
know, you can look at the, you know, it depends on, it depends
31:30
on the philosophy that you're trying to teach, right?
31:33
Like a lot of people will go to the neurobiology of, of, of
31:37
someone's brain, right? And it's like there's your brain
31:39
and there's the attic brain, right?
31:41
And, and, and that is there's some truth to that, right?
31:43
Like 'cause we all have a frontal cortex, we all have our,
31:47
you know, the middle part of our brain, which, which deals with
31:49
the emotion in the reptilian brain in the back, right?
31:52
But a lot of times it's like, how do you want to present this
31:56
information to someone, right? Because you know, when I learned
31:59
early on was addiction isn't like some, some black cloud
32:06
that's just like you're riding your bike along and it's like,
32:08
Oh my God, it's coming. It's coming.
32:10
It's going to suck me into the vent like the, the clown from
32:14
it. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's the
32:16
shittiest version of me and I need to learn how to make
32:21
change. And yes, there are times and,
32:24
and there's often times in the beginning where I can't control
32:28
what my brain is thinking, you know, but I can't control what
32:32
my actions around it, right? Like.
32:34
And again, it, it goes back to, you know, I, I think about the,
32:37
the, the book by the power of now by Eckhart Tolle, where, you
32:41
know, we talked about how the, the brain is the most, is the,
32:44
is the most powerful muscle in the body because it controls our
32:48
actions towards things, right? And learning how to lean in more
32:52
to the, to the, to the physicality of, of your body and
32:55
how your body is feeling rather than thinking about your mind,
32:58
because the mind plays tricks on you.
33:00
And there's a huge weapon, right?
33:01
And, you know, so to answer your question about, you know, the
33:06
attic brain and you know, that, that, that sequence, it's, it's,
33:10
I've learned in my, you know, my recovery that a lot of times it,
33:15
it goes back to, to cognitive behavioral therapy.
33:18
I need to do things and feel the rewards of them later on, right?
33:24
So I just need to take the action.
33:27
I need to, I need to change the, the behavior before my, my brain
33:31
changes, right? I can't, I can't think into a
33:35
new way of living. I have to live into a new way of
33:37
thinking. I love that, right?
33:38
I have to learn how to live. I have to do the action before I
33:41
start to feel better, right? Because there's always this pay
33:44
off, right? I think the way that our brains
33:46
and the, and the way that reality and, and is today is
33:49
we're all looking for that pay off, that initial instantaneous
33:55
pay off, right? But when we don't get the pay
33:58
off, it's like, God, shit, this doesn't work, right?
34:00
Like if I'm dieting and working out for a month and I don't feel
34:03
like I'm losing weight, I'm going to what am I going to do?
34:05
I'm going to say, screw this, I'm not doing this anymore,
34:07
right? But it's just about the
34:10
discipline. And I think that, you know, the
34:12
more that we're exposed to so many different services out
34:16
there, I think that the discipline piece starts to
34:19
become affected by that because I'm constantly looking at all
34:23
their options. What's the quickest, softest
34:25
way? What's the easiest way?
34:27
You know, how do I lose weight in a healthy way?
34:30
Oh, no, I can just, you know, take it with Zumbic or, or, or I
34:33
can, you know, whatever, you know, the shortcut, right.
34:36
And, and yeah, like it's, you know, that's just as a society
34:43
is what we what we try to do, right?
34:45
What's the What's the shortest? Way.
34:46
Take the pill. Yeah, Take the pill.
34:48
Yeah. It reminds me of instinct
34:49
gratification versus delayed gratification.
34:51
And recovery is all about delayed gratification.
34:53
Training your brain. I love that though, man.
34:55
It's like it goes back to you're watching the feet, not the
34:58
mouth, right? Like I can hear a million
35:00
podcasts, a million speaker tapes, a million people share,
35:04
but unless I'm actually doing what they're saying or doing
35:07
what they're doing, hanging out with them, going, doing service,
35:11
it's, it's almost like you're, you're planning, you're being
35:13
proactive on your thoughts, right?
35:15
Like I'm going to get ahead of this because I know those
35:17
negative thoughts are coming. It's, it's inevitable.
35:19
They're going to come. What am I going to do when they
35:22
come? Well, if I'm going for coffee
35:24
with people in recovery, if I'm being of service, if I'm doing
35:27
the things that every single fucking person tells me to do,
35:30
but I don't want to, that's the thing, right?
35:32
I don't want to do it, but they're all doing it and they're
35:34
happy. Maybe I'll just try, right?
35:37
And then it's like, yeah, you're training your brain to to wait
35:41
for gratification. And it's a, it's a totally
35:44
different type of gratification too, right?
35:46
How much better do you feel when you lose weight putting in the
35:49
work and scraping your knee and going through those hard things
35:52
than when you put a needle in your body in Ozempic And and it
35:55
just happens overnight, right? Like.
35:57
I mean, maybe in the, in the initial process of it is, is you
36:01
don't feel better, but you know, it's, it takes time, you know,
36:05
and I and I still struggle with with doing things like that
36:08
because it's like how, how you know, the thought of like the
36:11
whole process is so daunting sometimes depending on where
36:15
your head space is at. But when you actually get to
36:19
that process, you start, you appreciate it, right?
36:21
And but again, we stop at that process at some point where it's
36:28
like, it's too, I can't, it's too much for me, right?
36:33
You know, like, and it goes back to I I like what you said there
36:36
with, with, you know, the, the, the one pill, right?
36:39
It's like, remember, I don't know if you, if you remember
36:41
this, but I think like, yeah, I mean, it was like 5-6 years ago,
36:44
they they were thinking, they were saying, oh, we're going to,
36:46
they're going to come up with a pill of cure addiction, right?
36:51
A pill. So you take this pill, you're
36:53
not going to want to use drugs. Cravings gone, cravings gone,
36:55
right? Imagine that, right?
36:58
And that's like, really, you know, my head went to like, man,
37:04
if, what if I take two or three of these, you know, that make me
37:08
feel like I really don't want to use drugs and alcohol.
37:11
You know, it's normal. People don't really think like
37:13
that, you know, But it, yeah. If one is good, five must be.
37:19
If one is amazing, 5 must be amazing, right?
37:21
So, yeah, man, it's just, you know, today it's just really
37:24
about how do I navigate through the challenge that's in front of
37:27
me at that particular moment, right?
37:28
Like I went through this morning.
37:29
Like it seems like such a simple thing, but like, you know, like
37:32
if I get into the contacts of it, it's like Jesus Christ.
37:35
That's, you know, and again, I, I, I, you know, you cannot
37:39
predict human behavior. You can't, you know, you, you
37:43
know, again, and that's where I got to let up, let, let go of
37:46
control and, and, you know, allow myself to just be like,
37:50
this is what it is. How do I just do the best I can
37:52
in this situation, given the circumstances that I'm involved
37:56
in? You know, and you know, if you
37:58
live like that, you know, things will be good, you know, and then
38:02
you know, but also to it's like you want to learn how to let go
38:06
and not and not have control of other people placed in things.
38:10
But you also don't want to be a doormat either, you know.
38:14
So there's I think a balance with that too.
38:16
And I think that that's where, you know, if I'm dealing with a
38:19
situation or I'm speaking to a friend like yourself in
38:21
recovery, and I say, Anthony, this is what's going on for me.
38:25
You will have an objective perspective around it because
38:27
you don't have an emotional sort of tie to it.
38:28
So you can maybe give me some sound advice, whereas I
38:31
couldn't, you know, give myself that that same advice, right?
38:35
I have to hear other people's perspective on things.
38:38
Doesn't matter if I know them or not.
38:39
That aren't emotionally involved.
38:41
That aren't. Emotionally involved, it doesn't
38:42
matter if there's somebody that's fucking has nothing and
38:45
is is struggling with their own addiction, right?
38:47
I learned that that's, that was such a powerful thing that I
38:50
learned because I always thought that I have to, you know, talk
38:53
to a psychologist, a psychiatrist, you know, or, or a
38:57
professional that can help me feel like I'm, you know, how do
39:01
I be less shitty, right? Or like, you know, how do I, how
39:05
do I fix myself? Fix, fix me?
39:07
You know, I, I get all the time. You so, you know, people go to
39:11
my you didn't fix my son, you know, fix them, fix them, fix
39:15
them, fix them. And it's like we don't, we don't
39:17
do that right. We give people a, a navigational
39:21
plan, but it's up to them to to listen.
39:26
I can't change anybody. I can only provide insight on
39:31
this is what I did or this is what I've seen and this is what
39:34
has worked for people in the past.
39:36
You know, you take what you can and leave, you leave the rest.
39:39
So, you know, I, I think that that's, it's, it's super cool,
39:43
man. Like, you know, like even just
39:46
sitting here just talking like I, I'm, I'm so grateful for, for
39:48
everything that I have. And you know, the holiday season
39:51
is, is, is always a time where you know, it, it's a hard time
39:55
for people. You know, it's even for me like,
39:59
you know, because I don't have a lot of family that.
40:03
You know, celebrate holidays like my, my parents, I mean, I'm
40:06
Jewish, right? So my parents live in Florida,
40:08
you know, so I, I don't, I'm not like in the Christmas like
40:13
dynamic of like, oh, we're going to family, you know what I mean?
40:15
So, you know, it's always a, it's always a hard time for, for
40:18
people. And it's, you know, someday,
40:20
some years it's, it's not easy for me either.
40:22
And you know, you want that, right?
40:24
Again, when it's like, OK, well, I'm looking at, you know, my
40:26
friends here and like all these things that they're doing with
40:29
their, their kids or whatever that, you know, the case is.
40:32
And that's just like, I got to be grateful that, you know, I'm
40:34
alive and I'm able to sort of navigate and, and function in
40:38
the best way I can, right, given my, my set of circumstances,
40:41
right. And my, my situation is going to
40:44
be, you know, different than somebody.
40:47
Maybe there's some things that I want from that particular
40:50
situation and that's OK, But I cannot allow that to dominate
40:55
the way that I think about myself because that's not me.
40:59
That's somebody else's life, that's somebody else's
41:01
circumstances, that's somebody else's family, right?
41:06
And it and it all looks good when I see it on paper, but do I
41:11
really know what's happening in depthly behind that?
41:15
Right? And I forget about that.
41:17
It's like you want all these things, OK, but here's all the
41:20
the challenges that come with it, right?
41:22
Not any situation that we put our that we have, there's always
41:26
going to be a challenge to it, right?
41:28
Like, you know, for you, you know, you're married, you know,
41:31
and I'm sure like people will be like, wow, like Anthony's so
41:35
lucky, you know, beautiful, but they don't know the challenges
41:38
that you're dealing with on, on with a dynamic piece, right?
41:41
Or they see your family and they're like, wow, this
41:43
beautiful family. Like he's so lucky.
41:44
It's like, yeah, yeah, he is. But you don't see the challenges
41:47
that come internally with that either, right?
41:49
So on paper, everything looks, it looks great, but you know,
41:53
they don't really know the specific situation or the
41:57
circumstances what's happening, right?
41:58
So it's like, OK, I want these things because I'm seeing them
42:02
on other people, but do I really want them because or do I really
42:06
want that situation because I don't know what comes with that.
42:10
Yeah. It's like, yeah, do I want the
42:11
results of the the good benefits, the results, the on
42:15
paper stuff like you said, or do I want the daily maintenance
42:19
that it takes to to have a good marriage?
42:21
Cause yeah, my wife and I, we've been through a lot, right?
42:23
And you know, the universe, life, my addiction has tested
42:26
our relationship. And I think that all pain is a
42:29
touchstone of spiritual growth. I truly believe that we've
42:32
become stronger as a result. I.
42:34
Agree too. I agree too.
42:35
It's like, you know, you know, people are like, oh, I want
42:38
kids. I want, it's like people, people
42:41
want that people like the idea and the idea seems very, very
42:47
gratifying and, and intoxicating.
42:50
But it's like, are you willing to put in the work to deal with
42:54
the day-to-day of that, right? I don't know, right?
42:58
You may think you are, but who knows, right?
43:02
And I'm not trying to like say that, you know, if you want
43:04
kids, you shouldn't have kids 'cause this is what comes with
43:06
that. I'm not, I'm just saying like,
43:09
are you like, Are you ready? And, and, and you don't really
43:12
know until you, until you do it right?
43:15
But I think people really gravitate on the powerfulness
43:18
of, of the idea of things and how they think it's gonna work
43:23
or how they how it ought to work.
43:25
And it's like, you know, then you just come over with a whole
43:28
different bereavement of challenges.
43:31
So yeah, man, I don't know. Yeah.
43:34
And then it's like resentments come with it because they're not
43:36
meeting your expectations of what you thought it would be.
43:38
And there's a whole other thing. Yeah, it it also kind of goes
43:42
back to, I think at least, I don't know, I'll speak for
43:46
myself again. But when you see someone with a
43:48
nice car or a lot of money on the outside, it's the same
43:51
thing. I want the results, but you
43:54
don't know the work that they're putting in for one to get to
43:56
that place to achieve that success.
43:59
I use the word success loosely, right?
44:01
Monetary success. But there's also a lot of daily
44:06
work that goes with keeping that right.
44:09
And one of the best piece of advice my dad, like one of the
44:12
best things he ever said to me was you have to live within your
44:16
means, right? Spend less than you make.
44:21
It's like that is the simple, fundamental way to like achieve
44:25
financial freedom is just living within your means, right.
44:29
And so I don't know I, I've, I went through a lot of a long
44:33
time of I had this resentment towards rich people and that was
44:38
again, that was something with me.
44:39
It was like, I think it went back to this comparison of,
44:43
well, I don't have the Hueblo watch.
44:44
You know, I saw a guy in my elevator in, in my building.
44:47
There's a lot of like I, there's a Raptors player that lives in
44:49
my building. So I see a lot of like really
44:51
well off people wearing really fancy watches and I, you know,
44:55
suits and I assume that they're like CEOs and, and I, I had this
44:59
resentment for a long time. I'm still kind of working
45:02
through that and like, what, what is that about?
45:04
But I think it's like it's, it's a resentment towards myself of
45:07
not being where they are. Yeah, for sure it's easy to
45:11
gravitate, but let me ask you, this is your Hue Ball watch
45:15
gonna hug you at the end of the night and tell you that it loves
45:17
you. Yeah, right Is is a nice car
45:21
gonna come into your bedroom and and and and give you a hug and
45:26
say hey, Anthony, I appreciate you.
45:29
No, right. Yeah, That's, that's, that's
45:31
it's the people right in life. And these things are all, you
45:34
know, things that you have like the comfortability of it, but
45:37
it's not going to bring you sustainable happiness, right?
45:42
It's like when you talk about recovery, I, I think I've
45:45
mentioned this before with you, but like, you know, like the
45:47
compartmentalization, it's like, I'm doing so well in these
45:52
areas, but don't talk to me about my finances, don't talk to
45:54
me about my marriage. Don't talk to me about my, my
45:56
kids, don't talk to me about my, my infidelity.
46:02
You know those things because look at all these other things
46:05
are going well, right? And it's like that I always use,
46:07
I love this analogy. The the car and the broken
46:10
windshield, right? Someone's driving along and they
46:14
have a crack in the windshield and you tell them, Hey, you have
46:16
a crack in the windshield and they tell you, oh, look at the
46:19
beautiful paint job on this car. And you're like, yeah, but you
46:22
have a crack in your windshield. You're like, yeah, look at the
46:24
tires. I just got new 20 inch rims and
46:27
beautiful. Like when it's like, yeah, but
46:30
you have a cracking your windshield, it's like, oh, I'll
46:32
come take a take a look at the inside of it.
46:34
It's a beautiful car, TV's everything.
46:36
But you're you're you're swaying away from the area where it's
46:41
like you have a cracking your windshield.
46:43
Like that needs to be fixed. Forget about all the other
46:46
things that you have. What about this thing, right?
46:48
I think a lot of that we correlate in recovery with like,
46:52
OK, I'm doing well in all of these areas, so don't talk to me
46:55
about this piece, right? And that's where I see people
46:59
fall by the wayside. Is that compartmentalization?
47:05
You know, and it's, it's happened to me too, right.
47:07
It never stays a crack too. That's the other thing.
47:09
That's the. I think that's the point of the
47:10
whole analogy is like next week, your whole windshield is
47:13
shattered and you're still focused on your tires.
47:15
Yeah, yeah. Don't talk to me about my
47:18
meeting attendance or. Yeah.
47:19
Or my lack of step work, whatever step work.
47:22
Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. And, and I, I find we have to
47:25
land this plane because I have somebody else and we're gonna
47:29
talk about gambling. But I'm really grateful that you
47:32
came here, man. I love talking to you.
47:33
I love talking recovery. And we'll do, we'll do, we'll do
47:36
a nice anytime. Nice one hour, 1-2 hours.
47:40
We'll just, it'd be nice to get like, I have 3 microphones too.
47:42
So it'd be nice to get like, yeah, you Eric in here.
47:44
And we'll just do it. Fucking talk.
47:46
Fucking do it. We'll give me Erica.
47:47
Yeah, we'll do. That talk about what's going on
47:49
and how we deal with it, right, Yeah.
47:51
It's good we feel we gotta, you know, we feed off of each other
47:54
with that, right? It gives us the inspiration in
47:56
the whole. Thanks brother.
47:58
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