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Tolkien And The Nature Of Good And Evil · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to MythMakers, the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for fantasy.
• 0:18
  My name is Julia Golding, I'm an author but also I'm a director of the Centre.
• 0:24
  Today I'm delighted to be joined by one of our graduate students, Stanley here has just completed the six-week online fantasy course.
• 0:35
  During that course it transpired that Stanley is a semi-retired minister, Stanley Hannah, from the Presbyterian church in Elmer, Quebec in Canada.
• 0:48
  I hope I'm getting that right Stanley and at some point it came out when we were chatting that he has taught a course on Tolkien to theology students.
• 1:00
  And I thought this was a really interesting take on Tolkien and invited Stanley to come and talk to us.
• 1:07
  You talk that at the Ottawa School of Theology and Spirituality if I've got that right.
• 1:13
  Yes, yes, it was an online course, it was all on Zoom, there were about 32 students each week and it was a five-week course, two hours.
• 1:27
  And that's really fascinating that theology students find enough to say, there's probably even more to say about Tolkien to cover that course.
• 1:36
  But before we talk about the sort of subject matter you were covering there, perhaps we should row back a bit and find out about your own journey with Tolkien through your life and how you came to end up teaching him.
• 1:52
  My first exposure to JR Tolkien was actually when I was in graduate school, I had completed two years and I needed to take an internship someplace and so I set that all up and I arrived there.
• 2:12
  And of course all of a sudden I was out from under this required hundreds of pages of collateral reading for my courses.
• 2:20
  And so I decided to take advantage of that time and do some reading for myself and a friend had recommended the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.
• 2:32
  And so this was in the late 70s and so I picked those up and I started reading them and I read right through the Hobbit and then right straight through the Lord of the Rings.
• 2:45
  And and then after that I got interrupted by heading back to graduate school to finish my my program.
• 2:55
  And then after that was when I started studying the Silmarillion and exposed to other of Tolkien's writings as well as CS Lewis and some of these other some of the other inklings, but Tolkien held a particular fascination for me and I focused primarily on him in my readings and enjoyed it very much.
• 3:22
  So Stanley when you were reading him in the late 70s, I would imagine particularly if you start with the Hobbit you're coming to him just as a storyteller at that stage.
• 3:31
  What point did you begin to think about the other meanings that might apply to your own profession as a minister you were explaining to me.
• 3:41
  Before we started this chat that you you've been involved with lots of different churches in the Protestant tradition.
• 3:49
  So you represent quite a wide spectrum for Christianity. So perhaps we just run through where you've been a minister over your life.
• 3:59
  Well, I've ordained with the Methodist church and I've been ordained for 40 41 years.
• 4:08
  But I've also had opportunity to serve in various capacities as minister of visitation, pastoral care and that in the Anglican church in Canada also with the United Church of Canada.
• 4:26
  And also most recently I've been helping with a congregation in Alma Quebec with the Presbyterian church and prior to that I was with the Methodist.
• 4:38
  So that's quite a journey through very sort of sister churches really aren't they they're quite close in theological position.
• 4:48
  So going back to the younger Stanley reading talking was it like a dimmer switch coming on where you realized that there was an application or is it something that came rather suddenly to you.
• 5:02
  I think the thing that grabbed me and helped me I grew up in a in a very rural isolated community in southern Ontario in Canada.
• 5:18
  And with all of its provincialisms and kind of narrow kind of perspective.
• 5:27
  And what Tolkien did for me was expand my perspective on first of all who God is and on the whole concept of good and versus evil.
• 5:41
  And suddenly my world through Tolkien just got so much bigger and and and it's continued to grow.
• 5:54
  I've appreciated that probably more than anything else is that that kind of gave me this leap forward if you will in my perspective and my understanding of of not only Tolkien's cosmos but also ours.
• 6:13
  And and it shed light on things and and gave me some interesting insights into things that I'd I'd speculated about and thought about while I was growing up.
• 6:25
  But suddenly I was finding some answers in in Tolkien's writings that helped me understand even the the bigger concept of God and his his creation.
• 6:40
  So that that was a jumpstart if you will for me.
• 6:45
  Yeah, one of the things I say when I do school trip school visits about creative writing is that one way of thinking about fantasy is it's like a laboratory.
• 6:56
  So you take things from our world and run the experiment in the world you've created and so you can run the experiment of what does evil look like what does courage look like and all these other things within a creative world in a in a way that is in a sense purer and able to you're able to systematize it.
• 7:17
  In fact, which perhaps gets lost amongst the signals in the real world.
• 7:23
  So Stanley let's have a actual think about some of the specifics you mentioned there your understanding of the nature of evil and good was expanded by your thinking about Tolkien.
• 7:37
  Is this something that you taught on your your course in Ottawa?
• 7:42
  Yes, the title of the course was J.R.R. Tolkien and his concept of of good and evil and and so we got to take a look at the bigger perspective.
• 7:55
  His particularly the Silmarillion speaks so much to to the development of of these things and these concepts and the thing is that I believe that Tolkien's writing is so deep.
• 8:18
  And continues to be mined if you will by authors in each generation.
• 8:26
  Just since I started studying in preparation for teaching that course, I was running across all kinds of new books of authors who were putting out all this material.
• 8:39
  And I think of Harvey's the the song of Middle Earth and the Hobbit wardrobe and great war by Lacante and the these various authors who the Tolkien and the invention of myth that a great book that is a whole group of scholars have delved and gone deep.
• 9:09
  And I think his in during legacy in his writing is that he plumbed the depth of humanity through and but did so with through his own faith perspective and he he was grounded.
• 9:34
  And the reason that his work at least that's what I'm I feel I'm discovering is that the reason is work continues to appeal to generation after generation is this is this grounding and his the touchstones of the virtues and all of those things that.
• 9:56
  That we all are looking for and need in our need in our lives and and are hoping to discover and embrace for ourselves.
• 10:10
  I was thinking particularly about the nature of evil in Tolkien because one way there's been a sort of poor copy of Tolkien is the idea of there being a dark lord you know that's become a bit of a cliché.
• 10:26
  Very Pratchett has fun with that saying he think dark lord should be rationed in the world of fantasy.
• 10:33
  Of course that isn't really where the evil resides.
• 10:37
  Though by Lord of the Rings it's an eye at the top of a tower that's only the pinnacle of literally the pinnacle of the evil.
• 10:45
  It's appeared in many different forms in many different places throughout the Somarillion and in the characters Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit.
• 10:54
  So did you find that you were discovering more about how evil functions by following that path through the Somarillion to the combination in Lord of the Rings.
• 11:09
  I think it broadened my perspective on we the thing that I I think that that was most important to me was the fact that Tolkien does not avoid evil nor does he negate it nor does he ignore it.
• 11:31
  Instead he hits it head on.
• 11:36
  Each of his characters are faced with the challenges that this this evil brings each of them suffer each one of them are have their faults and in some ways the their exposure to the evil even kind of puts a lens on that enhances it.
• 12:02
  But then they you know there but he doesn't leave it there.
• 12:07
  I told him continues to move through it in that we we we face the evil we face it with each of these characters and at some point each of them they they exhibit hope and.
• 12:26
  And also I think redemption they in the spite of their failures in the spite of the fact that they're all flawed they still work through and and hit it head on and it's kind of like Scott pecs the road less traveled in which he talks about the the neuroses which is the great.
• 12:53
  ailment of the western society in that we we have a neuroses the avoidance of reality and so here we have each of these characters facing their reality facing the challenge that is before them they they have to work through this and they emerge stronger on the other side evil isn't done away with.
• 13:18
  But it is it is conquered through all of these virtues of faith and love and and help and friendship all of these things conspired to overcome.
• 13:34
  The evil that is present that wants to pull apart and destroy and all of those kinds of things so that that is help me understand in a in a greater way and be able to give me a much larger picture of what evil is an in our world.
• 13:57
  And and parallels between J our Tolkien's middle earth and and and our our society today.
• 14:07
  It is interesting that actually every character is a failure not a failure is the character but they all fail they have a moment of failure yeah all of them though even someone who's as admirable as anybody can imagine being Sam he still has his moment when he.
• 14:26
  He he leaves Frodo lying there he failure respects for a strong way of putting it it's a terrible choice he has to make but he makes the wrong choice so he he's not he's probably the most perfect and pure of heart of all the characters really isn't he.
• 14:45
  Yes in the lineup because even someone like Galadriel has had a shady past in the beginning of the movie and we're never quite sure what she did when when they crossed the ice and all that is I think during but clearly she's had it had a past even though she's ended up in a good place yeah.
• 15:05
  So I wanted to sort of think about the theme that's intertwined with evil which is temptation because it's a very strong theme in.
• 15:15
  The books of CS Lewis who obviously is the other big inkling writing alongside talking I'm thinking particularly of that archetypal image of the Turkish delight in.
• 15:28
  The light in the wardrobe and also he talks about it in the screw tape letters about you know how you which is his humorous letters between a senior and a junior devil which again is another quite funny but very insightful portrait of humanity.
• 15:47
  The temptation is a huge theme of two running through the Lord of the Rings everybody gets their moment when they have to well all the main characters get their moment when they have to choose and that's what sets them apart do you think that temptation is in a sense.
• 16:07
  Something which every single character has to deal with even the sort of valor and the God type elements in Lord of the Rings or is there anybody who is aside from that trial.
• 16:24
  I think from from what I've read I think all of them have to deal with the temptation each one of them are confronted with the the desire of the ring.
• 16:39
  And of course it has a power of its own that seems to work on them and the only one of course it doesn't affect his Tom Bombadil but he's he's kind of a strange character anyway but.
• 16:57
  A billbow you know was I mean you know grab the ring you know found it but then he he immediately kind of dissembles and that he always talks about the fact that he.
• 17:14
  He you know he found it and and of course he did but he he he kind of gives a different picture of how it came into his possession and and each one of them have the temptation even he they try to give it away or they try to give it to Gandalf to you know gladriel all of them they all have to face that incredible moment where.
• 17:44
  They have to choose.
• 17:48
  And it and it's a it's a forced moment but but Tolkien deals with that so so wonderfully in that they they have to reach down within themselves and say no I'm I'm not going to be tempted with that.
• 18:03
  Boramere probably is the one who we see really succumbs and come is over overwhelmed by it and that he you know continues to you know want it until finally all of a sudden the moment comes when he realizes that he's he's done something very very wrong.
• 18:27
  And and then he's you know in his but in his dying moment he's given that that that moment of redemption.
• 18:37
  Error going you know restores his his position and and reflects on him as his king and you know and and promises him a proper burial and.
• 18:50
  And and in Tolkien's world that's the that is the the redemption they they still have to suffer the consequences of their actions but.
• 19:00
  But they they are redeemed through you know their attitude and what it what they had you know accomplished by re by refusing to be overcome.
• 19:16
  I think thinking about it in terms of from a creative writing perspective I think temptations are really interesting way of making otherworldly characters relatable because yeah.
• 19:27
  Tom Bommadot isn't relatable because of his spirit of nature pan above everything stature.
• 19:38
  But the moment when we can relate to someone as elegant and queen Lee as gladial is the moment when she has to face her desires and her thirsts it makes her sort of human.
• 19:50
  And the same goes with the gods because the gods in the Silmarillion also at times have moments of temptation to interfere or not interfere that's when they come closest they still remain fairly distant but that's the moment they've been closest.
• 20:07
  So I think temptations are really important thing to remember when creating characters as a writer that that is when reader actually can empathize even with the most unlikely of beings you know be it an elf queen or an end.
• 20:24
  Of course I don't think tree bit ever he doesn't come across the ring it'd be interesting to know what his response would have been I've got a feeling he may have been tempted to take it to set the the world to rights.
• 20:39
  So maybe he would have also had to struggle though he would have overcome it as well I think.
• 20:43
  Okay so one of the notable things of course having talked about the sort of the values and the ethics in order the rings is that it is a world that has no observable religious practices there is some religion in.
• 21:02
  Numenor there's a sort of a place which is dedicated to the Valar and of course there is in the Elven world the mountains where they dwell among them so there's a set the gods walking amongst the elves or they're kind of like Archangel type gods on they.
• 21:22
  But it is very interesting to choose to put the Christian story outside the narrative whereas talking himself sorry as a Christian work that's one of the things he says about is a Catholic story.
• 21:38
  Which a contrast of course to CS Lewis who puts all of that in his world did you have any thoughts about why if that works and what would you be able to have middle earth with some with the Christian element of the story as sort of Jesus figure in there how do you think that would work I mean that's one of the things I just sort of speculate about it would have actually stood up as a story.
• 22:05
  Now that's that's a really good it's a really good question I.
• 22:12
  I'm not sure it would work the same because you would be you would have to define it in a way that right now the way it it stands all of the the things that were important to.
• 22:34
  J.R. Tolkien and understanding humanity and the development of the cosmos and the coming together of those things and how we relate to one another and those virtues how good faces evil and all of those things I mean there's so much that's Christian about those things.
• 23:02
  But it tends to be a little more nebulous and I think if you defined it you would probably from my perspective I think you would diminish what what was taking place amongst the the company.
• 23:24
  With Gandalf and the interaction with the with the elves learning to to work together to accomplish the big thing I don't know I don't know if it would have it it would have certainly brought a different flavor to it and I'm not sure it would have had as much appeal.
• 23:51
  I think there's certainly yeah it would have posed it down it would have certainly put off people coming at it you know the shared space which is talking which is what I really love about it that you.
• 24:03
  All faiths and no faith because it's a welcome space I suppose looking at it though maybe there is a sense of.
• 24:12
  Tolkien's understanding of Christ is is fractured in many different places so you get a glimpse of it in Gandalf you get a glimpse of it in the sort of.
• 24:22
  scapegoat figure of Frodo carrying the bird and for everybody else you know you can trace it but it's not located in one bigger not an aslan.
• 24:32
  And also of course talking hated allegory so he would have not enjoyed putting an allegorical Christ in his world I think yeah the other option is he thought of it as like an Old Testament world.
• 24:46
  When I've done books where I've put a sort of world religion in it I've always thought of it like that that I imagine in some way as.
• 24:55
  prior of sort of prior history and it frees you up to not do a Islamic or a Christian or whatever your background is story yeah.
• 25:08
  yeah so it's it's kind of infused throughout this this perspective that he had and it's it's infused in the writing but it's not blatant.
• 25:27
  and and when you uncovered it's one of those aha moments rather than all that's what I was looking for kind of thing or that's what I was expecting to find it it just suddenly appears and to me.
• 25:45
  that is probably one of the greater and long term appeals and why again this this work continues to be mined generation after generation they come at it and saying you know there's so much here I'm not sure talking himself meant to you know that for all of these these commentaries and everything else to be written on his work and yet the depth of it is there.
• 26:15
  because he was writing from a place of of of deep faith and consideration and how he's he viewed his his own faith in his world and how that interacted and so that that's become infused in the in the work itself.
• 26:37
  yeah so I think it's that feeling that it doesn't tarnish it doesn't wear away because it goes all the way through everything it's not not a sort of cheaply built quick built world it's.
• 26:53
  yeah you never you don't reach the end of the map there to you it's always expanding feeling that it's got the fullness of our own world in there and of course he wanted to be a senator and he achieved that brilliantly it's an inspiration and something which we can I think very few people can achieve.
• 27:14
  yeah so we always end our podcast with deciding where in all the fancy world is the best place to go for something we've done forests and museums and libraries and all sorts of things before and I thought in your honor Stanley if you don't mind we would think about where is the best place to be a priest or a religious leader.
• 27:39
  and I think we should also add in at this time whereas the worst place because I actually found it easier to think for the terrible places to be a religious leader rather than one because I think fancy writers often use religion as a kind of you know the wicked principle in in their world so did you have a thought where would be the best place to be a priest.
• 27:59
  well I think probably Narnia because you've got the the presence of Aslan and that there would be a sense of the presence of Aslan in there and you'd be working with an understanding that this this world is infused with that wonder and grace.
• 28:29
  and on beauty and and that I think that would that that's my initial response you know I I've read a lot pretty widely and in fantasy literature and I like all of the you know all of these different worlds I've encountered.
• 28:52
  but I think in answering your question it would seem to me that Narnia would be the place to land doing the kind of doing the kind of work that I do and yeah.
• 29:06
  that's the one I picked out as well and partly because of course if you're somehow in the leadership team with Aslan if he had such a thing you get to be something else that you have to be a minor or a form that is actually experience life as another creature or a talking badger yeah so I think that's a good way to go so what about the worst place to be a religious leader.
• 29:30
  Westeros. Game of Thrones.
• 29:38
  I thought of a couple I thought of they're all pretty bad in Philip Paulman's and that materials world.
• 29:48
  because not only are you a bad guy but you also get a really rubbish damon you get like a cockroach or something like that so that seems pretty visible and then the other one is
• 30:01
  the true decanavans age of five series starts with the pre-stress of the white and I remember reading that thinking this is a really rubbish place to be a dog because they sort of have to experience almost terrible things so it's a definitely an adult book so I think it's up there with Westeros as a rubbish experience.
• 30:22
  Anyway Stanley thank you so much for being with us and it sounds like you've got more courses you've done good and evil but there's lots more talking theme that you could do for your school of theology and spirituality so good luck with future teaching on that and thank you so much for being with us today thank you.
• 30:43
  It's a real pleasure thank you Julia.
• 31:13
  you