Latest / The You Project / #2246 Fears, Beliefs & Placebos - Prof. Bill Sullivan

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#2246 Fears, Beliefs & Placebos - Prof. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: G'day team, it's Harps and Dr. Bill for the last
0:02
Speaker 1: time in 2026. I'm a little tearful, he's a little
0:07
Speaker 1: bit emotional himself. Hopefully we'll keep it together for the
0:11
Speaker 1: entirety of the show, but we might also have some
0:18
Speaker 1: fun along the way. Hi Doc, how are you? Prof,
0:20
Speaker 1: I should say, how are you?
0:21
Speaker 2: I don't know, I just burned through a whole box
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Speaker 2: of tissues listening to that introduction, so....
0:29
Speaker 1: Oh, you know what I love? You've started to become
0:31
Speaker 1: sarcastic like an Australian. I couldn't be prouder.
0:36
Speaker 2: Well, I guess talking with you all these times, you're
0:38
Speaker 2: rubbing off on me a little bit.
0:41
Speaker 1: And again, I couldn't be prouder. No, this is our
0:44
Speaker 1: last chat for 2026, but you've informed me that you're
0:49
Speaker 1: amazingly willing to come back next year. So thank you
0:52
Speaker 1: for that. I realize I never introduce you formally, so
0:56
Speaker 1: I actually want to tell my listeners a little bit
0:58
Speaker 1: about you. And then off the back, I've got an
1:01
Speaker 1: idea of where we might go. But my ideas often
1:05
Speaker 1: prove to be not where we go, and your ideas
1:09
Speaker 1: often prove to be not where we go because it's
1:13
Speaker 1: a conversational fruit salad here at the You Project. We
1:16
Speaker 1: don't know what's happening.
1:18
Speaker 2: That's part of the fun.
1:20
Speaker 1: Bill Sullivan, PhD, is the author of Pleased to Meet Me, Genes,
1:25
Speaker 1: Germs and the Curious Forces that Make Us Who We Are.
1:27
Speaker 1: Go get that book, everyone. On audio, it's available and
1:30
Speaker 1: also in all good bookstores and probably a few crap ones.
1:34
Speaker 1: He is an award-winning professor at the Indiana University School
1:39
Speaker 1: of Medicine, where he studies genetics and infectious disease. He
1:43
Speaker 1: received his PhD in cell and molecular biology from the
1:47
Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania and has published dozens, I'd say more
1:51
Speaker 1: than that by now, wouldn't you, of papers in scientific
1:54
Speaker 1: journals and contributed to National Geo, Discover, Scientific American, Scientific
1:59
Speaker 1: American Mind, Cosmos, Science Enthusiast, Salon.com and more. He's been
2:05
Speaker 1: interviewed by CNN, The Wall Street Journal, The Indianapolis Star,
2:09
Speaker 1: Science Fantastic with Dr. Mikio Kaku, The Naked Scientists and
2:14
Speaker 1: The Scientist. But probably... you know, the peak of his
2:19
Speaker 1: media career is right here on the You Project, which
2:22
Speaker 1: this would be the zenith, wouldn't it? This would be
2:25
Speaker 1: the Mount Everest of media for you, wouldn't it?
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Speaker 2: I'm telling you, this is when all my academic friends
2:30
Speaker 2: get together, this is what we talk about achieving. You know,
2:34
Speaker 2: if you're not qualified for a promotion and tenure, unless
2:38
Speaker 2: you're regular on Dr. Harp's The You Project... That is hilarious.
2:44
Speaker 1: You are very funny. Thank you for that endorsement. I
2:47
Speaker 1: know it's inauthentic, but my low self-esteem will embrace it anyway.
2:54
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the title of your book,
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Speaker 1: which is Pleased to Meet Me, Genes, Germs and Curious
2:59
Speaker 1: Forces that Make Us Who We Are. When you say
3:02
Speaker 1: meet us, whom is the us that you are referring to?
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Speaker 1: Are you just talking about understanding things how we work physiologically?
3:14
Speaker 1: Is that the us to whom you refer or the me,
3:19
Speaker 1: pleased to meet me?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty much it. It was, I mean, it's
3:27
Speaker 2: a book for everybody, obviously, because there's all sorts of
3:31
Speaker 2: explorations into human behavior, some of the traits that I
3:35
Speaker 2: don't possess. But the book's origins was basically Utilizing my
3:41
Speaker 2: skills as a researcher and my background in biomedical sciences
3:45
Speaker 2: to try to figure out what is wrong with me
3:49
Speaker 2: under certain circumstances. When I deviate from the norm, so
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Speaker 2: to speak. One of the very first chapters talks about
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Speaker 2: why people experience taste of different foods or drinks. You know,
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Speaker 2: I happen to fall into this minority group that's called
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Speaker 2: a super taster and I can't stomach it. a lot
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Speaker 2: of cruciferous vegetables like broccoli or cauliflower and things like that.
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Speaker 2: And I've always carried this question with me throughout my life.
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Speaker 2: Why do these things taste so awful to me when
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Speaker 2: most people can apparently eat them even for pleasure? And
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Speaker 2: that was just a thought that, you know, doesn't resonate
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Speaker 2: with me at all. So I dove into the scientific
4:34
Speaker 2: literature and found some vindication. Lo and behold, I'm called
4:38
Speaker 2: a super taster, and it's not my fault. I have
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Speaker 2: a genetic mutation that reconfigures my taste buds so that
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Speaker 2: they bind to these bitter chemicals in certain foods with
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Speaker 2: a great affinity, whereas most people, those chemicals don't bind
4:53
Speaker 2: to their taste buds very tightly. And that's why my
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Speaker 2: brain registers these types of foods literally as too bitter
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Speaker 2: to eat. It's a poison. Spit it out. So that's
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Speaker 2: one example as to why I wrote the book and
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Speaker 2: why I called it Pleased to Meet Me, because I
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Speaker 2: was literally trying to learn about myself and why I
5:14
Speaker 2: exhibited certain quirky behaviors. Now, you know this, Harps, as
5:19
Speaker 2: well as other people who might have read the book,
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Speaker 2: that there's a lot, the whole spectrum of human behavior
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Speaker 2: is under analysis in my book. Each chapter is dedicated
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Speaker 2: to a different aspect of human behavior and Some of
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Speaker 2: which I do not exhibit. For example, the tendency to
5:35
Speaker 2: be violent. I'm not like that. I am an aggressive pacifist.
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Speaker 2: But I wonder why other people fly off the handle,
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Speaker 2: have short tempers, and would rather resort right to violence,
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Speaker 2: sometimes in very heinous ways, than try to work something
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Speaker 2: out uh diplomatically or civilly so that's not a behavior
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Speaker 2: i have but it's a behavior i wanted to figure
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Speaker 2: out and that's why it's more about us everyone as
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Speaker 2: you alluded to rather than just me.
6:12
Speaker 1: Do you think people are i think people are like
6:17
Speaker 1: vaguely interested in how they work but i'm obsessed with
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Speaker 1: how i work like i'm i want to understand why
6:26
Speaker 1: do I look for Dr. Bill's approval? I want to
6:29
Speaker 1: understand that. I want to understand. No, I do. I
6:31
Speaker 1: want to understand.
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Speaker 2: Oh, you don't need my approval.
6:34
Speaker 1: No, but do you know what I mean? Just this
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Speaker 1: self-awareness stuff. Like how come I'm 60 and I'm still
6:43
Speaker 1: insecure or I still have self-doubt? I've achieved lots of things.
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Speaker 1: I've done really well. I've written books. I've worked in radio, television,
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Speaker 1: spoken in 20 countries. I've done great stuff that The
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Speaker 1: fat kid that grew up in the country would never
6:56
Speaker 1: have even dreamed of, yet in the middle of all
6:59
Speaker 1: of that there's still self-doubt, imposter syndrome, fill in the blank. Absolutely.
7:03
Speaker 1: Or how come I feel a certain way when I run?
7:08
Speaker 1: How come when I lift weights at this time I
7:11
Speaker 1: feel awesome, when I feel weights at that time I
7:13
Speaker 1: feel less awesome? How come blah, blah, blah? Like just that,
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Speaker 1: I think the pursuit– of trying to understand ourself, not
7:27
Speaker 1: just biologically, but sociologically, emotionally, psychologically, behaviorally. To me, that's
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Speaker 1: almost like the prerequisite for living a reasonably functional life.
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Speaker 1: If you don't understand why you are the way you are,
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Speaker 1: it seems likely that you're going to continue to do
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Speaker 1: shit that's counterproductive, if not destructive.
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Speaker 2: No question. So yeah, I absolutely share your enthusiasm and
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Speaker 2: this powerful curiosity as to why we do the things
8:06
Speaker 2: we do. In fact, that might be one of the
8:09
Speaker 2: back cover descriptions of what my book is. It's basically
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Speaker 2: a human, a manual for the human body updated with
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Speaker 2: the most current science that I could find at the time.
8:19
Speaker 2: I not quite, I'm not quite certain where this curiosity
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Speaker 2: comes from to figure out why I do the things
8:27
Speaker 2: I do. But I'm equally curious about why other people
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Speaker 2: do things that I would never dream of doing. And
8:35
Speaker 2: I think that is helpful because I, Especially in my field,
8:40
Speaker 2: I got to do a lot of science communication. I
8:42
Speaker 2: do a lot of science outreach and I encounter a
8:45
Speaker 2: lot of people who question science or who question the
8:49
Speaker 2: medical advice that I advocate. And I do a better
8:53
Speaker 2: job being a science communicator if I can understand their headspace,
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Speaker 2: if I can understand what their fears might be or
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Speaker 2: where their trust erodes or why they're having these doubts.
9:06
Speaker 2: I can do my job better. So I think that
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Speaker 2: what we're getting to at the end of the day,
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Speaker 2: both you and I with these with these this powerful
9:16
Speaker 2: drive of curiosity about human psychology. Yeah. Is so that
9:21
Speaker 2: we can better our own lives individually as well as
9:25
Speaker 2: better society. And I think we have powerful evolutionary drives
9:30
Speaker 2: deep within our hardware up in our head to make
9:34
Speaker 2: life better possible. for the human species as a whole.
9:38
Speaker 2: Because whatever we do for everyone that is positive is
9:41
Speaker 2: going to feed back onto us and whatever progeny we
9:45
Speaker 2: may leave behind in the world. So I think that's
9:48
Speaker 2: where the evolutionary drive comes from. And we have this
9:52
Speaker 2: remarkable system of acquiring accurate knowledge called science. And this,
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Speaker 2: I think, is really important to communicate to the people
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Speaker 2: who dictate policy and make laws. If they're not informed
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Speaker 2: by the latest evidence about how the body works, how
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Speaker 2: the mind works, then I think we're going to be
10:12
Speaker 2: making laws and policies that are ill-suited to our uh,
10:19
Speaker 2: to ourselves as individuals, as well as a collective society.
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Speaker 1: I was listening to, uh, something earlier today, I went
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Speaker 1: for a walk and these guys were talking about, they
10:30
Speaker 1: touched on placebos and we we've spoken about that a
10:35
Speaker 1: little bit, but apart from the fact that there seems
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Speaker 1: to be now thousands of cases, um, And one of
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Speaker 1: the leading researchers in this space, Dr. Jeffrey Rediker from
10:47
Speaker 1: Harvard Medical School, I've interviewed a couple of times. And
10:51
Speaker 1: he's got over 100 documented cases, all the tests, all
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Speaker 1: the screens, all the evidence to show that that person
11:03
Speaker 1: had a terminal disease with zero hope of recovery, who
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Speaker 1: then had a total recovery or healing, whatever you want
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Speaker 1: to call it. It just, what fascinates me is that
11:17
Speaker 1: we know that that is real. We know it's uncommon,
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Speaker 1: but it's real. We know, or it seems to be
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Speaker 1: real if you believe someone like him and his evidence, right?
11:28
Speaker 1: Which makes me think if somebody who has an inoperable
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Speaker 1: disease or something, an incurable disease, who can somehow heal themselves,
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Speaker 1: let's just call it that, with their mind, How, I
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Speaker 1: was going to say the F word, I won't because
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Speaker 1: you're very respectable, but how flipping amazing is the mind? Also,
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Speaker 1: how little do we understand the mind? And if the
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Speaker 1: mind is that powerful, how can I control my mind
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Speaker 1: rather than being controlled by my mind? Or at the
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Speaker 1: very least, how do I psychologically self-regulate better than I am?
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Speaker 1: How do I get myself into a better state psychologically
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Speaker 1: and as a consequence emotionally and probably behaviorally and practically?
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Speaker 1: Like trying to understand how the mind works. Of course,
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Speaker 1: the body, which is more your space, the mind is
12:31
Speaker 1: more my space. But like the relationship between biology and psychology,
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Speaker 1: biology and sociology, biology and personality, biology and cognitive performance
12:45
Speaker 1: well that is biology really but yeah i i'm just
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Speaker 1: fascinated by the potential of the mind and the way
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Speaker 1: that we seem to and i'm generalizing here so i
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Speaker 1: could be wrong for a lot of people but but
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Speaker 1: broadly a lot of people seem to have very little
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Speaker 1: interest in understanding their mind or developing it in a
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Speaker 1: way that's going to make their life better which I
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Speaker 1: think it's like the most powerful drug on the planet
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Speaker 1: by light years is our mind.
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Speaker 2: So this is a fascinating area. And I do touch
13:23
Speaker 2: on this in my book quite a bit because I
13:27
Speaker 2: find the science to be downright amazing. And before I
13:32
Speaker 2: dig into it deeper, I'll just say, Harps, you can
13:35
Speaker 2: drop as many F-bombs as you want. It doesn't matter
13:38
Speaker 2: to me. I live in the United States. I'm surrounded
13:41
Speaker 2: by them all the time. So the placebo effect, just
13:49
Speaker 2: as the other expert you alluded to, does seem to
13:52
Speaker 2: be real. There's increasing data supporting some really unusual cases
13:58
Speaker 2: or some outlier cases where People didn't seem to have
14:02
Speaker 2: any hope of recovery from something. And they suddenly get better,
14:10
Speaker 2: presumably due to, you know, even though they weren't taking
14:14
Speaker 2: some medication to treat their their symptoms. There's some really
14:19
Speaker 2: neat line. There's a neat line of experimentation there. And
14:23
Speaker 2: some of these are fraught with some problems like the
14:26
Speaker 2: so-called reproduction crisis in science. So a lot of these
14:29
Speaker 2: studies are one-offs. We don't know how. Yeah. We don't
14:33
Speaker 2: really know the veracity. But different labs have come at
14:37
Speaker 2: this question from different angles. Some of the studies that
14:41
Speaker 2: come to my mind are if you treat two populations
14:48
Speaker 2: of depressed individuals– And you give someone like a sugar pill,
14:56
Speaker 2: but they believe or they're told that this is an antidepressant.
15:02
Speaker 2: They'll show improvements in their mood. You know, there's always
15:06
Speaker 2: going to be a considerable number of people who are
15:10
Speaker 2: immune to this effect and do not. You know, there's
15:13
Speaker 2: something in their body that is not going to change
15:17
Speaker 2: through power of mind. But there do seem to be
15:19
Speaker 2: some people who are susceptible to this in a good
15:22
Speaker 2: way because that pill can make them improve without any
15:27
Speaker 2: actual real medicine. And this speaks to a. New concept
15:34
Speaker 2: in neurophysiology. It might be old to some people, but
15:37
Speaker 2: I think it's finally becoming a little more predominant in
15:43
Speaker 2: popular culture in that we always talk about mind and
15:47
Speaker 2: body as if they're two separate things. But the new
15:51
Speaker 2: science speaks to the fact that they really aren't. They're inseparable.
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Speaker 2: What happens in the mind affects the body and what
15:58
Speaker 2: happens in the body affects the mind. And we shouldn't
16:01
Speaker 2: be surprised by that. If you if you reflect on
16:04
Speaker 2: that a little deeply or draw in some personal examples,
16:07
Speaker 2: I think you'll realize that that's in fact true. But
16:10
Speaker 2: we view our our brain and our mind as something
16:13
Speaker 2: separate from our body. And I think that's a dogma
16:15
Speaker 2: that has to change. Yeah. And it certainly explains some
16:19
Speaker 2: of the. mechanisms that might underlie the placebo effect. And
16:23
Speaker 2: I think we should state unequivocally that scientists don't know
16:27
Speaker 2: what's going on with the placebo effect. We don't quite
16:31
Speaker 2: understand the mechanism. It certainly doesn't happen to everybody. And
16:36
Speaker 2: there's certainly limitations to it. You can't, for example, have
16:41
Speaker 2: an amputee grow a new arm because of the power
16:45
Speaker 2: of their mind. You know, so we do have to
16:48
Speaker 2: be cautious with how far we take this placebo effect.
16:53
Speaker 2: And it's just one side of the coin. And this
16:57
Speaker 2: might really interest you, Harps, but you've probably heard of
16:59
Speaker 2: the nocebo effect. So for your listeners, this is the
17:03
Speaker 2: opposite of the placebo effect, kind of its evil.
17:08
Speaker 1: Twin, if you will. Voodoo is an example. Right.
17:13
Speaker 2: It's basically where You know, if someone gave you a
17:17
Speaker 2: pill and said, you know, this is this pill is
17:18
Speaker 2: going to make you nauseous. But it was really just
17:20
Speaker 2: a sugar pill. And you take it and you feel nauseous.
17:24
Speaker 2: That's the nocebo effect. Something bad that happens to you when,
17:28
Speaker 2: in fact, there's no good reason for you to be
17:31
Speaker 2: experiencing something bad. You might want to get Helen Pilcher
17:35
Speaker 2: on your show. I just blurbed for a book of
17:39
Speaker 2: hers that came out. She's a scientific journalist in the U.K.,
17:44
Speaker 2: And she wrote a wonderful book about the nocebo effect.
17:49
Speaker 2: And the upshot of the book is we really do
17:52
Speaker 2: have to consider the mind and body as one entity
17:56
Speaker 2: working together. And she cites all sorts of great examples
18:02
Speaker 2: of the nocebo effect in real life. So I think
18:08
Speaker 2: your statement about the power of the mind is can
18:11
Speaker 2: work both ways. It can help us, but it can
18:15
Speaker 2: also hinder us. So the real question at the end
18:18
Speaker 2: of the day is how can we harness this power? And,
18:22
Speaker 2: you know, we're not going to regrow amputated limbs, but
18:25
Speaker 2: can we at least get ourselves into a better headspace?
18:29
Speaker 2: Can we calm anxiety? Can we reduce depression? You know,
18:34
Speaker 2: might we be able to recover from an illness faster
18:38
Speaker 2: just by the way that we're thinking? I think those
18:40
Speaker 2: are fascinating questions and they do warrant further investigation.
18:48
Speaker 1: Yes. It's so funny. You just said everything I think.
18:53
Speaker 1: So the end of the show, everyone. Thank you. It's
18:58
Speaker 1: funny when you said, you know, like, there are limitations
19:02
Speaker 1: straight away. I thought, well, you can't regrow a limb.
19:04
Speaker 1: And then you went, well, you can't regrow. That was
19:07
Speaker 1: in my head. And then you said it, I smiled,
19:10
Speaker 1: but I've been, even though you're right, like we don't
19:14
Speaker 1: understand the mechanism. This is the, I think this is
19:17
Speaker 1: one of the things that we need to get our
19:19
Speaker 1: head around, not only in science, but outside of science
19:21
Speaker 1: is that sometimes things are true and powerful and transformational
19:27
Speaker 1: and but at this point in time, we don't understand
19:30
Speaker 1: how they work and comma, that's okay. You know, we
19:34
Speaker 1: just need to go, we don't know. We don't know
19:36
Speaker 1: how this person who's meant to be dead is not dead.
19:39
Speaker 1: Not only are they not dead, they're healthy. Um, and that,
19:43
Speaker 1: you know, you think about like a perfect example of
19:47
Speaker 1: if your mind believes something your body does. So if
19:49
Speaker 1: you're in a dream and you dream that you're in
19:51
Speaker 1: a bad situation, but you're not, you're completely safe. You're
19:56
Speaker 1: in the comfort of your own home. Everything's locked. You
20:00
Speaker 1: are totally secure. There is zero threat to you right now,
20:03
Speaker 1: but you are in a dream where you think you're at,
20:07
Speaker 1: you know, you're vulnerable or worse than your body starts
20:11
Speaker 1: to produce the appropriate physiology, heart rate, breathing, adrenaline, cortisol,
20:17
Speaker 1: blood pressure. All of these things happen because your mind
20:21
Speaker 1: believes that this thing is happening. So your body responds
20:24
Speaker 1: accordingly because your body can't differentiate between what is real
20:29
Speaker 1: and what you think or what you truly believe is real.
20:35
Speaker 1: And then the other side of that would be you
20:37
Speaker 1: love your golden retriever. When you lie on the floor
20:40
Speaker 1: with your golden retriever, you're producing a bit of oxytocin
20:44
Speaker 1: and dopamine and all the feel-good things. And in your dream,
20:49
Speaker 1: you're with your golden retriever, you're producing all these feel-good
20:52
Speaker 1: hormones despite the fact that the golden retriever is downstairs
20:55
Speaker 1: in the laundry. And I think we can get in
20:57
Speaker 1: our own way by getting distracted by the, we don't
21:07
Speaker 1: understand how it works part. Now, it'd be great to
21:10
Speaker 1: figure out how it does work eventually, but if we
21:13
Speaker 1: know that it's true or we know that it's, there's
21:17
Speaker 1: truth in it, I know that I can think that
21:20
Speaker 1: I'm in danger and my body responds as though I am,
21:23
Speaker 1: despite the fact that I'm not, you know, and we
21:28
Speaker 1: could extrapolate this concept further audience to, teenage boys, that's
21:34
Speaker 1: all I'll say. I'll just say that. Teenage boy, nocturnal events,
21:41
Speaker 1: we could say that. But obviously, you know, the body
21:44
Speaker 1: just responds to what it thinks is happening. And that's
21:49
Speaker 1: governed largely by, you know, the events of the mind,
21:54
Speaker 1: which is now you think, well, then with knowing that,
22:00
Speaker 1: is it possible that Is it possible to manage my mind?
22:05
Speaker 1: Or is that a ridiculous... It's like trying to understand
22:10
Speaker 1: the mind, using the mind as the tool to discern
22:14
Speaker 1: the understanding. It's like, is that a mind fuck of itself?
22:23
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. And I say no because religions, theologians, philosophers...
22:31
Speaker 2: for all of recorded human history, have been trying to
22:34
Speaker 2: harness the power of the mind without any access or
22:38
Speaker 2: knowledge about psychology or the fact that, hey, when you
22:44
Speaker 2: get yourself into a bad headspace, your body starts releasing
22:47
Speaker 2: stress hormones and a whole bunch of other bad biochemical
22:54
Speaker 2: agents coursing through your veins. You know, you can get
22:58
Speaker 2: yourself into a real tizzy just by what you're daydreaming
23:02
Speaker 2: in your head or, you know, what you're imagining your
23:05
Speaker 2: future might be. And all of us have a innate
23:08
Speaker 2: tendency to imagine the worst. That's evolutionarily advantageous. But when
23:14
Speaker 2: it comes to day to day living, it's really crappy
23:17
Speaker 2: because it really puts you like in anxious and bad
23:20
Speaker 2: moods all the time. And it's because there is no
23:24
Speaker 2: separation between our brain and our body. When our brain
23:29
Speaker 2: starts thinking about these things, terrible scenarios that might happen
23:34
Speaker 2: to us or a loved one in the future, or
23:37
Speaker 2: we just, you know, have daydreams that imagine all these
23:41
Speaker 2: sorts of things that can go wrong in our lives.
23:44
Speaker 2: We are releasing all sorts of fight or flight chemicals
23:50
Speaker 2: that are coursing through our body because our brain, like
23:53
Speaker 2: you said, Harps, it can't differentiate the abstract world that
23:58
Speaker 2: the brain's creating versus the real world that is out
24:03
Speaker 2: there before us. You can think of your mind as
24:07
Speaker 2: basically a reality generating machine. It's trying to take in
24:11
Speaker 2: sensory input, all the things you see and hear in
24:14
Speaker 2: your environment and construct what that environment looks like inside
24:20
Speaker 2: of your head so that you can navigate your world.
24:24
Speaker 2: The catch is that your brain can imagine worlds as well.
24:30
Speaker 2: And a lot of what we imagine, a lot of
24:33
Speaker 2: the bad stuff we imagine, a lot of the worry
24:36
Speaker 2: we have never really takes place. But it can help
24:39
Speaker 2: us prepare for such events. So we're evolutionarily predisposed to
24:45
Speaker 2: engage in this activity. But we have to know its
24:48
Speaker 2: limits and we have to deal. We have to realize
24:52
Speaker 2: what it's doing to us biochemically. And it's not good
24:56
Speaker 2: if you're doing this all the time. So I think
25:00
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, what a lot of theologians,
25:04
Speaker 2: the Buddhists, the Stoics, people who meditate or engage in
25:10
Speaker 2: prayer or even do like talk therapy with another person
25:16
Speaker 2: or a group, you are basically trying to come up
25:21
Speaker 2: with psychological tools that calm your mind down. so that
25:27
Speaker 2: your body stops producing these adverse biochemicals that can cause
25:33
Speaker 2: a lot of damage to you physically as well as psychologically.
25:37
Speaker 2: I think this is one of the major problems we
25:40
Speaker 2: have in dealing with stress. And you're absolutely right in
25:45
Speaker 2: that if we control our thoughts... we can manage our
25:51
Speaker 2: world a lot better because you basically, the mood you
25:55
Speaker 2: adapt is triggered by the thoughts that you're having.
26:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, there's, I think we misinterpret our
26:05
Speaker 1: subjective experience of things for the thing. We go, oh, this,
26:10
Speaker 1: this is like, we, we think our reality is the reality.
26:14
Speaker 1: And we don't, you know, even let's say 10,000 people
26:18
Speaker 1: listen to this this chat, which is about what we get.
26:21
Speaker 1: So there's going to be 10,000 different experiences around these words,
26:28
Speaker 1: this energy, this conversation, this flow, this information. It's very
26:33
Speaker 1: unlikely that anybody is going to have a completely identical
26:36
Speaker 1: experience for 60 minutes to somebody else, which is why
26:40
Speaker 1: literally someone could listen to this and say, this is fascinating.
26:46
Speaker 1: And their actual experience is fascination. Somebody else is like,
26:50
Speaker 1: I don't get it. And their experience is confusion. And
26:54
Speaker 1: they turned it off 10 minutes ago. Somebody else is like,
26:59
Speaker 1: this is really informative. And they feel like they're in
27:02
Speaker 1: the middle of an education moment. But all of those
27:06
Speaker 1: experiences for them are real, but at the same time,
27:10
Speaker 1: based on how they think about what they are listening to.
27:14
Speaker 1: I think also.
27:19
Speaker 1: There's a really big piece in all of this, which
27:26
Speaker 1: is like something that affects every human, which is fear, right?
27:30
Speaker 1: Because fear, I mean, fear can hijack our mind, hijack
27:34
Speaker 1: our brain, hijack our everything, nervous system, endocrine system, you
27:38
Speaker 1: know that, right? So I think trying to change our
27:44
Speaker 1: relationship with fear is probably not the right term, but
27:48
Speaker 1: I remember, I'm going to tell you a quick story
27:50
Speaker 1: that I've never told you. So when I was 19,
27:52
Speaker 1: I moved to the other side of the country. When
27:56
Speaker 1: I came out of school, I didn't go to university.
27:58
Speaker 1: I started working in gyms, but I moved to the other.
28:01
Speaker 1: So from East Australia, where I am, to West Australia,
28:05
Speaker 1: Western Australia, and I worked on the coast in a
28:08
Speaker 1: little town called Bunbury. And I worked on an aluminium refinery,
28:15
Speaker 1: which was being constructed. So it was this gigantic construction site.
28:20
Speaker 1: It was, in your language, probably 16 square miles of dirt,
28:26
Speaker 1: like four miles by four miles. For us, maybe seven
28:30
Speaker 1: kilometres by seven kilometres, this huge space in the middle
28:34
Speaker 1: of nowhere, building this gigantic aluminium refinery. Anyway, I got
28:40
Speaker 1: there day one and I was just going to work
28:46
Speaker 1: like a working holiday for a year or so. And
28:49
Speaker 1: my godfather was one of the bosses on this site.
28:54
Speaker 1: And he said to me two things. When they ask you,
28:59
Speaker 1: where are you from? Don't say Victoria, which is the
29:02
Speaker 1: state I live in because Western Australians don't like Victorians much.
29:07
Speaker 1: So come up with somewhere else. I'm like, righto. And
29:10
Speaker 1: if they ask you if you're scared of heights, say no,
29:12
Speaker 1: because you'll get a better job and you'll make more money.
29:16
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay. So anyway, without giving a long-winded story,
29:23
Speaker 1: day one, I had to climb up basically this enormous
29:28
Speaker 1: cylindrical tank that was 140 feet high, so 14 floors,
29:32
Speaker 1: the equivalent of 14 floors, on a ladder that that
29:40
Speaker 1: was attached to the outside of the tank, which didn't
29:45
Speaker 1: have a safety cage around it. So we were the
29:48
Speaker 1: guys putting in the cage. Anyway, I started like from
29:52
Speaker 1: day one working at height. I was all day, every day,
29:56
Speaker 1: somewhere between scared and terrified. A month in, the fear
30:03
Speaker 1: was about a six, not a 10, right? And then
30:07
Speaker 1: eventually after, I worked there for 10 months, but I
30:09
Speaker 1: would say by six months, the fear was about a
30:13
Speaker 1: one or two. Like there was still an awareness that
30:15
Speaker 1: this is dangerous, but my fear, like I was the
30:19
Speaker 1: same guy in the same place doing the same thing
30:22
Speaker 1: with the same risk in the same environment, but because
30:25
Speaker 1: I had adapted- My body experienced that. My mind experienced it.
30:31
Speaker 1: And therefore, my body experienced it. Therefore, my sympathetic nervous
30:36
Speaker 1: system wasn't running hot all day. I was calm. My
30:40
Speaker 1: heart rate was low. My blood pressure was lower. I
30:42
Speaker 1: was making better decisions. I was cognitively sharper and more aware.
30:47
Speaker 1: And so therefore, I was safer. But it was funny
30:50
Speaker 1: how the same guy doing the same thing in the
30:52
Speaker 1: same place had a completely different experience because I adapted
30:57
Speaker 1: to that environment.
31:00
Speaker 2: No, that's a great story. And I think you can
31:02
Speaker 2: come up with innumerable examples of how our body adapts
31:05
Speaker 2: to stressful situations over time with repetition. Public speaking is
31:10
Speaker 2: another one. Most people are terrified. the first few times
31:15
Speaker 2: they do public speaking. But if they continue to do it,
31:18
Speaker 2: most people get more or less comfortable with it, may
31:20
Speaker 2: even come to enjoy it. And, you know, the same
31:26
Speaker 2: bodily chemicals that triggered all the sweats and the shaking and,
31:32
Speaker 2: you know, the nerves on the very first day you
31:35
Speaker 2: did a public presentation, suddenly that doesn't happen anymore. And
31:39
Speaker 2: it's because your brain is now comfortable with that situation.
31:42
Speaker 2: It recognizes that event as a non-stress event. And your
31:48
Speaker 2: body experiences, you know, it doesn't experience the same type
31:54
Speaker 2: of stress hormones that you initially did. And I imagine
31:58
Speaker 2: that's exactly what happened to you as your body adapted
32:02
Speaker 2: to these, the heights and the stress of that job.
32:07
Speaker 1: Do you think that It seems to me like belief is,
32:13
Speaker 1: like what I believe is happening, what I believe I'm
32:17
Speaker 1: in the middle of, what I believe is possible. It
32:20
Speaker 1: seems like belief is a huge part of this.
32:26
Speaker 2: I think it can be.
32:27
Speaker 1: Like a huge part of the experience we end up in.
32:31
Speaker 2: I think it absolutely can be, but it's a bit
32:34
Speaker 2: of a double-edged sword. But, of course, your body is
32:38
Speaker 2: going to respond to the beliefs that are circulating in
32:43
Speaker 2: your head. So if you approach a certain activity that
32:47
Speaker 2: might seem stressful, but you tell yourself that, Hey, I
32:51
Speaker 2: got this, I can do this. Um, you, you may
32:55
Speaker 2: in fact not feel as potent of a stress response.
33:00
Speaker 2: If you were to say, Oh my gosh, I'm so nervous.
33:03
Speaker 2: I'm so anxious. I'm going to bomb. I'm going to fail. Um,
33:06
Speaker 2: it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy either way.
33:11
Speaker 2: So it's it's advantageous, I would say, to a degree
33:15
Speaker 2: to go into a stressful situation, you know, telling yourself, hey,
33:21
Speaker 2: you know, if you've prepared, if you've trained, if you've practiced,
33:23
Speaker 2: you got this, you're going to be fine. Don't worry.
33:26
Speaker 2: Have faith in your abilities.
33:28
Speaker 1: Yes.
33:29
Speaker 2: Why I say it's a double edged sword. is because
33:32
Speaker 2: sometimes you can lie to yourself. And in fact, you
33:35
Speaker 2: did not prepare properly, you did not go through the
33:37
Speaker 2: proper training. And you're just saying, I'm going to fake
33:40
Speaker 2: it till I make it, but you really don't have
33:42
Speaker 2: the street cred to say that. That's where it can
33:44
Speaker 2: get you into trouble. So I absolutely 100% feel that
33:51
Speaker 2: your beliefs can be a major variable And how the
33:56
Speaker 2: experience is going to go, because those beliefs are going
33:59
Speaker 2: to dictate what sort of biochemicals course through your veins.
34:03
Speaker 2: And those dictate how you feel. They also dictate what
34:08
Speaker 2: happens to you at a physical level. putting too many
34:12
Speaker 2: stress hormones into your body day in and day out
34:15
Speaker 2: through anxiety and worry isn't going to do your body
34:19
Speaker 2: any good. We know that excessive levels of cortisol going
34:24
Speaker 2: through the body causes a great deal of chronic inflammation.
34:27
Speaker 2: This is not something that you want happening all the time.
34:32
Speaker 2: You want to reserve that cortisol burst for acute stress
34:36
Speaker 2: events only.
34:38
Speaker 1: Do you think this is a little bit of a
34:41
Speaker 1: left turn in the conversation, but do you think that
34:45
Speaker 1: the availability of comfort and convenience and predictability and all
34:51
Speaker 1: of the things that are kind of at our disposal
34:54
Speaker 1: in 2026 have made us less resilient and less adaptable?
35:04
Speaker 2: Now that is an interesting question. Because I can see
35:07
Speaker 2: some people arguing that the more comfortable and safe that
35:11
Speaker 2: you feel, the more physically and psychologically healthy you should be.
35:20
Speaker 2: But I don't think our minds rest like that. Our
35:24
Speaker 2: minds are always chattering. They won't shut up. They always
35:28
Speaker 2: stress out about things. So I think in addition... to
35:32
Speaker 2: environments being created that kind of provide us a cushion,
35:38
Speaker 2: we're still gonna invent scenarios in our head that produce stress.
35:42
Speaker 2: So I think whatever is happening to us externally, whether
35:45
Speaker 2: it's good or bad or neutral, what really dictates what
35:49
Speaker 2: happens to our body is what's going on up here.
35:53
Speaker 2: I'm pointing to my head, of course, people can't see that.
35:55
Speaker 2: But like I said earlier, we imagine our world in
36:01
Speaker 2: our heads. And it can be incongruent with the world
36:05
Speaker 2: that's actually out there in a good or a bad way.
36:08
Speaker 2: But what has happened, you know, the mental image that
36:11
Speaker 2: we form in our head, the environment we think that
36:13
Speaker 2: we're in is the one that our body is going
36:16
Speaker 2: to respond to.
36:18
Speaker 1: Yeah.
36:19
Speaker 2: You know, within limitations, of course.
36:22
Speaker 1: Yes.
36:23
Speaker 2: You know, if we are sitting outside and it's 100
36:26
Speaker 2: Fahrenheit on the beach and we feel hot, we can't
36:31
Speaker 2: imagine ourselves. in an ice bath and not get a sunburn.
36:36
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
36:36
Speaker 1: Yeah.
36:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
36:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think that being a resilient person, I
36:45
Speaker 1: feel like resilience matters at the moment. Um, do you
36:49
Speaker 1: think that that is more about attitude, mindset, experience, what
36:54
Speaker 1: you've been through or, uh, more just who you are genetically.
37:00
Speaker 1: Like some people seem to be born very resilient, very capable,
37:06
Speaker 1: very solution focused. Do you think that's more something that's
37:11
Speaker 1: innate or perhaps learned or developed or something else?
37:15
Speaker 2: I think it's both. In my book, there's a chapter,
37:19
Speaker 2: this might be in the brain chapter itself, but it
37:22
Speaker 2: talks about I believe I believe it talked about orphans
37:29
Speaker 2: who they put into a longitudinal study. So they watch
37:32
Speaker 2: these children develop over time into adolescents and adults. And
37:38
Speaker 2: some of these children really had rough lives. OK, I
37:42
Speaker 2: think it was a rough or a Russian orphanage, if
37:45
Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken. And they did find. Some children who
37:52
Speaker 2: grew up to be very resilient adults and who did
37:56
Speaker 2: not seem to be affected by the tragic events that
38:00
Speaker 2: occurred during their childhood. They had a more or less
38:04
Speaker 2: normal life or even were very successful. And when they studied,
38:11
Speaker 2: they did like, I think, genomic studies on these resilient
38:15
Speaker 2: orphans and the ones that didn't fare so well. And
38:19
Speaker 2: one of the interesting genes that popped up was BDNF,
38:23
Speaker 2: which is a protective factor that is found in the brain.
38:27
Speaker 2: It basically protects the wiring in your brain amongst the
38:33
Speaker 2: other jobs that it has. And that could be a
38:38
Speaker 2: potential genetic factor that resilient people might have. Now, that's
38:46
Speaker 2: not to say that all people can't tap into the
38:50
Speaker 2: power of the mind and increase, you know, dial up
38:55
Speaker 2: their resilience to a certain degree. Circling back to what
39:00
Speaker 2: you said earlier, Harps, about our current environment, there seems
39:05
Speaker 2: to be a lot of comfort with victimhood these days.
39:10
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying this is bad, but it seems
39:14
Speaker 2: to be a little in vogue to say you were
39:16
Speaker 2: a victim of some trauma. And in some cases, that's
39:18
Speaker 2: a very real thing. But in other cases, you might
39:21
Speaker 2: hear their story and you're like, really? You call that trauma?
39:25
Speaker 2: You're comparing that situation to someone who was like abused?
39:32
Speaker 2: You know, it runs on a spectrum. But I am
39:37
Speaker 2: not in the victimhood. I think, you know, if you
39:40
Speaker 2: are told you are a victim, it becomes a self-fulfilling
39:43
Speaker 2: prophecy and it prevents you from moving forward. It hinders
39:48
Speaker 2: your progress forward. So there's a book by a psychologist,
39:54
Speaker 2: Scott Barry Kaufman. It's called Rise Above, Overcome a Victim Mindset,
39:59
Speaker 2: Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. And he's tapping
40:03
Speaker 2: into some of the psychological tools that you and I
40:05
Speaker 2: have been discussing here, Harps, in that if someone keeps
40:10
Speaker 2: calling you a victim, that's what you're going to feel like.
40:12
Speaker 2: But what you call yourself in your mind starts to
40:15
Speaker 2: begin a healing process and a way forward. Yes. That
40:18
Speaker 2: is much more productive and healthy, at least in my opinion,
40:22
Speaker 2: than just wallowing in the self-pity of victimhood. So, you know,
40:26
Speaker 2: I think people should certainly not feel ashamed that they
40:30
Speaker 2: need time to grieve and recover after any sort of trauma.
40:33
Speaker 2: But if you want to get back to having a normal,
40:37
Speaker 2: healthy life, you're going to have to learn how to
40:40
Speaker 2: rise above that. And Scott Barry Kaufman's book is amazing.
40:45
Speaker 2: exemplary in giving you the knowledge and tools to do that.
40:51
Speaker 1: I'll have a glimpse at that online and maybe buy
40:55
Speaker 1: it as an audio book. In the book and in
41:02
Speaker 1: the context of your research for that and beyond, where
41:09
Speaker 1: does the concept of identity, personal identity come in, if
41:15
Speaker 1: it does come in. I'm interested in the way people self-represent,
41:22
Speaker 1: their sense of self, who they are, like their core identity.
41:27
Speaker 1: Is that about biology, sociology, psychology, perception, worldview? Is that
41:34
Speaker 1: about theological, cultural programming? et cetera, et cetera? Or maybe
41:44
Speaker 1: it's an intersection, an amalgamation of it all. I don't know.
41:47
Speaker 2: Well, it's a fascinating question. And it certainly was not
41:53
Speaker 2: the answer I was expecting when I was doing research
41:56
Speaker 2: for Please to Meet Me. Because I think it's natural
42:00
Speaker 2: for us to believe that somewhere up in our brain,
42:04
Speaker 2: there's like this static self that has an identity that
42:10
Speaker 2: you know, that, that we refer to as us. I
42:14
Speaker 2: think the consensus for most psychologists is that's a myth.
42:19
Speaker 2: And interestingly, Buddha figured this out more than 3000 years ago.
42:26
Speaker 2: There's no such thing as a static self. We are
42:31
Speaker 2: different people depending on who we are around. So in some,
42:36
Speaker 2: some even go so far to say, The person who
42:38
Speaker 2: we are is dictated by the people in our circle,
42:42
Speaker 2: you know, the people we hang around. And I touch
42:44
Speaker 2: on this in Pleased to Meet Me in the way that,
42:48
Speaker 2: you know, in one given day, you can be multiple
42:53
Speaker 2: different selves. You know, you can start out as being
42:55
Speaker 2: a mom and a dad in the morning. During the day,
42:58
Speaker 2: you're either an employee or maybe a boss. After work,
43:04
Speaker 2: you're a soccer mom or a soccer dad. And then
43:07
Speaker 2: after that, You might be a friend to someone or
43:12
Speaker 2: you're talking to a sibling. It's fascinating because even though
43:18
Speaker 2: we feel like we're one person experiencing this single day,
43:24
Speaker 2: we were multiple people at different stages of the day.
43:28
Speaker 2: You know, it's really quite fascinating to think about. So
43:32
Speaker 2: we have this adaptability in our mind of who we're
43:37
Speaker 2: going to be depending on who we're interacting with. And
43:41
Speaker 2: I find out to be fascinating. But I still think
43:46
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, we can say that
43:48
Speaker 2: there's like a core identity that we have that is
43:52
Speaker 2: based on the values that we cling to and the
43:57
Speaker 2: behaviors that we honor. Whether, you know, we encourage virtuous behavior,
44:04
Speaker 2: for example, and try to live up to ideals that
44:08
Speaker 2: many of the world's great religions and philosophers have told
44:11
Speaker 2: us make for a better human being.
44:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. I created, what would I call it,
44:22
Speaker 1: like a, I don't know, not a framework, but kind
44:27
Speaker 1: of a framework. to talk to people about the different
44:32
Speaker 1: versions of us that show up, right? So, and my
44:37
Speaker 1: versions were, or the four kind of levels or personalities,
44:43
Speaker 1: I guess, were public you, personal you, private you, secret you, and,
44:51
Speaker 1: or secret me, private me, whatever. And public me is
44:56
Speaker 1: the version of ourselves that we let everybody in the
44:59
Speaker 1: world in on. So this is me, no filter. This
45:04
Speaker 1: is the person that I present to everyone. Then personal
45:11
Speaker 1: me is probably more, you know, friends and family, maybe
45:17
Speaker 1: 10 to 20 people that I know that I trust,
45:19
Speaker 1: that I have relatively close relationships. They get to meet
45:23
Speaker 1: personal me. And then private me is maybe only my
45:27
Speaker 1: wife or my partner, my husband. It might be a child.
45:33
Speaker 1: It might be two or three people, but very few
45:36
Speaker 1: people get to meet that version of you. And then
45:39
Speaker 1: secret you is the you that only you know, that
45:42
Speaker 1: only you ever meet.
45:44
Speaker 2: No, I like that. That mirrors what I was trying
45:47
Speaker 2: to describe in a much simplified and straightforward manner. Yeah, yeah.
45:54
Speaker 2: But it's nice to be able to have that plug-and-play option.
45:58
Speaker 2: You can be different people around different communities. You can
46:04
Speaker 2: leverage that to your advantage. If you have to go
46:07
Speaker 2: do something for the first time, you say, okay, which
46:10
Speaker 2: one of myself is going to be the best suited
46:13
Speaker 2: to plug into this particular event?
46:17
Speaker 1: And for the people thinking, oh, that sounds inauthentic or disingenuous, no.
46:22
Speaker 1: in fact, it's intelligent, it's socially and emotionally intelligent, is knowing,
46:27
Speaker 1: like even in the context of these conversations, I am
46:31
Speaker 1: always thinking, how do Professor Bill and I have a
46:36
Speaker 1: conversation about what can be complicated science-y stuff in a
46:41
Speaker 1: way that's interesting, that's user-friendly, there's maybe a few stories,
46:46
Speaker 1: We built connection, rapport, trust, engagement, interest. Now, if you
46:50
Speaker 1: and I are just sitting here just spewing out data, research,
46:54
Speaker 1: and science, we're going to have four listeners and everyone's
46:57
Speaker 1: turned off by the five-minute mark.
47:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, we might just have each other.
47:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, but even in this context, it's like which version
47:07
Speaker 1: of me as a communicator, as a coach, as a host,
47:11
Speaker 1: and you as an educator and all the other things,
47:15
Speaker 1: which version of me needs to be here now to
47:18
Speaker 1: create the best outcome for everyone other than us? Well,
47:22
Speaker 1: you know, hopefully we enjoy it too, but like I'm
47:25
Speaker 1: trying to create a good product and a good experience
47:28
Speaker 1: for the listener and that relies on a degree of situational,
47:33
Speaker 1: social and emotional awareness and intelligence.
47:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. The people who levy that
47:41
Speaker 2: criticism I think are confusing people dishonesty with how the
47:47
Speaker 2: mind actually works. It's not being inauthentic at all if
47:52
Speaker 2: you are just being adaptable in your social context. And
47:58
Speaker 2: I think your example of like, you know, you can't
48:03
Speaker 2: interact with your boss the way that you interact with
48:07
Speaker 2: one of your closest friends. That's just not socially intelligent
48:11
Speaker 2: to do. So this is an evolutionary adaptation that we
48:16
Speaker 2: have as social animals so that we can get along
48:20
Speaker 2: in different social contexts. It allows us to navigate our
48:24
Speaker 2: social world in ways that are going to be advantageous
48:28
Speaker 2: to our survival. Now, where things go awry and where
48:32
Speaker 2: you can be inauthentic is when you're being dishonest in
48:36
Speaker 2: one or more of those social contexts. And that's very
48:40
Speaker 2: different than that. okay, I'm going to relax a little bit,
48:45
Speaker 2: let my filter down because I'm with friends. Whereas if
48:49
Speaker 2: I say those things, you know, in front of my priest,
48:53
Speaker 2: I'm in big, big trouble.
48:55
Speaker 1: A hundred percent. I remember it would have been five
48:59
Speaker 1: or six years ago. In fact, maybe seven or eight,
49:02
Speaker 1: maybe it was before COVID, but I had three speaking
49:07
Speaker 1: gigs back to back in the same week. And the
49:09
Speaker 1: first gig was at a private, uh, Anglican College. I
49:15
Speaker 1: think it's Anglican. I won't say the name of the school.
49:19
Speaker 2: St.
49:20
Speaker 1: Michael's. And I had to talk to a bunch of kids,
49:25
Speaker 1: year 10s. The next day I had to speak in
49:28
Speaker 1: a prison to all the people who were in prison.
49:34
Speaker 1: The next day I spoke at a conference, which was
49:37
Speaker 1: called the Royal Australian College of Surgeons Annual Conference. So
49:41
Speaker 1: I've got 300 surgeons. The day before, like 300 inmates
49:45
Speaker 1: or 150. And the day before, a bunch of students.
49:50
Speaker 1: And essentially... At a level, it's about how do we
49:56
Speaker 1: think better, do better, create better, solve problems, create better outcomes.
50:00
Speaker 1: You know, it's not totally dissimilar ideas and concepts being
50:06
Speaker 1: wheeled out. But the energy, the language, the style of presentation,
50:13
Speaker 1: even what I would wear, you know, everything had to
50:17
Speaker 1: be just specific to that group. Even though you're doing
50:23
Speaker 1: what seems to be the same job, it's like completely different.
50:28
Speaker 1: So what are you doing? I'm going to talk to
50:30
Speaker 1: a room of humans. Yeah, that sounds like the same job.
50:34
Speaker 1: It's not. We talk about that social awareness and intelligence
50:39
Speaker 1: and situational awareness and intelligence. And it's like, yeah, you
50:44
Speaker 1: need to figure out what version of you shows up.
50:48
Speaker 1: And it could be one-on-one with one of your kids
50:50
Speaker 1: having a conversation. It could be one on a thousand
50:54
Speaker 1: in an auditorium. It could be writing a book called
50:57
Speaker 1: pleased to make me jeans germs and the curious forces
50:59
Speaker 1: that make us who we are and thinking in this book,
51:03
Speaker 1: how do I share my ideas in a way that
51:05
Speaker 1: is most resonant with the largest percentage of the audience?
51:09
Speaker 1: Cause that's what you want to write.
51:11
Speaker 2: That's right. So why am I, why am I bothering
51:15
Speaker 2: to write this? You know, I just, for myself, um, No,
51:19
Speaker 2: I wanted many people to benefit from all the research
51:22
Speaker 2: that I did in trying to understand why we do
51:25
Speaker 2: the things we do. And the beautiful message that emerged
51:30
Speaker 2: from the collection of research that I did for the
51:33
Speaker 2: book is that there's a lot of flexibility for positive
51:36
Speaker 2: change in everybody's life. A lot of it has to
51:40
Speaker 2: deal with mindset. And of course, in the book, I
51:44
Speaker 2: also talk about physical things people can do, things that
51:47
Speaker 2: you and I, Harps, have It said almost every episode,
51:52
Speaker 2: eat real food, exercise more, get a dose of nature,
51:55
Speaker 2: sleep well, reduce stress. All those are wonderful things to
51:58
Speaker 2: do for you physically, but that is also going to
52:01
Speaker 2: benefit you psychologically. But I loved the opportunity to research
52:07
Speaker 2: how the mind works and leveraging that knowledge just to
52:12
Speaker 2: make life more pleasant, not only at an individual level,
52:15
Speaker 2: but to be a better citizen in the world. Yeah.
52:20
Speaker 1: It's been a gift for me to be able to
52:22
Speaker 1: spend another year chatting with you. I appreciate you. I
52:26
Speaker 1: hope you have an awesome Christmas. I know it's very early, but,
52:29
Speaker 1: and a great new year. I hope you get some
52:32
Speaker 1: quality time with your family and thank you for all
52:36
Speaker 1: that you do for me and for the You Project.
52:39
Speaker 1: You're very much appreciated.
52:42
Speaker 2: Well, Harps, the gratitude runs both ways. It's always a
52:45
Speaker 2: pleasure to come onto your podcast, Chat things up with you.
52:50
Speaker 2: You always have great insights and excellent questions. And your
52:53
Speaker 2: reader feedback on the Facebook page is amazing. So my
52:57
Speaker 2: thanks to you and your listeners as well.
53:00
Speaker 1: Appreciate you.