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Heart Over Excel: A Leadership Revolution with Kyle McDowell · The Heart-Led Business Show

• 0:01
  Speaker: Welcome to The Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love.
• 0:09
  Speaker: Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second.
• 0:20
  Speaker: From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism.
• 0:29
  Speaker: So buckle up and let your heart guide your business journey.
• 0:36
  Tom Jackobs: Well, welcome to the Heart-Led Business Show.
• 0:38
  Tom Jackobs: Today we have the incredible Kyle McDowell, former Fortune 10 executive turned inspirational speaker and bestselling author.
• 0:48
  Tom Jackobs: Kyle's mission to spark culture of excellent by igniting passion and purpose.
• 0:54
  Tom Jackobs: It was truly his journey of transforming workplaces with his trademark principles, The 10 WE's, and how a heart-led approach can drive mega change.
• 1:04
  Tom Jackobs: So buckle up as we get ready to feed that heartbeat and business wisdom from Kyle McDowell.
• 1:10
  Tom Jackobs: Kyle, welcome to the show.
• 1:11
  Kyle McDowell: Wow, Tom, what an introduction.
• 1:13
  Kyle McDowell: Thank you for having me.
• 1:14
  Kyle McDowell: It's a real pleasure to be here.
• 1:15
  Kyle McDowell: I appreciate it.
• 1:16
  Tom Jackobs: Well, Kyle, I'm really excited to chat with you.
• 1:19
  Tom Jackobs: I know when we first spoke, you shared The 10 WE's, uh, and I'm really, I shared that immediately with my team and they're like, yes, that we need to adopt all of these.
• 1:31
  Tom Jackobs: And I gotta tell you my, my, my favorite three is
• 1:35
  Kyle McDowell: Hit me.
• 1:36
  Tom Jackobs: own your mistakes.
• 1:38
  Tom Jackobs: I tell the team all the time, it's okay to make mistakes.
• 1:41
  Tom Jackobs: That's how we learn.
• 1:43
  Tom Jackobs: I'm not gonna yell at you the first time you make the mistake, but maybe the second time.
• 1:46
  Tom Jackobs: But we're gonna learn.
• 1:47
  Kyle McDowell: There's a tagline that I always, I'm sorry to cut you off there, but I, I, you, you picked up on the spirit where that whole principle is intended to go.
• 1:55
  Tom Jackobs: Oh.
• 1:55
  Kyle McDowell: We own our mistakes, and I always add this tagline.
• 1:59
  Kyle McDowell: We're not judged by our mistakes.
• 2:00
  Kyle McDowell: We're judged by how quickly we remedy them and if we repeat them.
• 2:04
  Kyle McDowell: So I love your take on that, brother.
• 2:06
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 2:06
  Kyle McDowell: We're gonna make mistakes.
• 2:07
  Kyle McDowell: We're human.
• 2:08
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 2:08
  Kyle McDowell: What are the other two?
• 2:09
  Tom Jackobs: Pick each other up.
• 2:11
  Tom Jackobs: That's so heart heartfelt.
• 2:12
  Tom Jackobs: Then measure outcomes, not
• 2:15
  Kyle McDowell: activity.
• 2:16
  Tom Jackobs: So good.
• 2:18
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 2:18
  Tom Jackobs: I mean, all 10 are golden, but those were my, uh, three top.
• 2:22
  Tom Jackobs: So I'm excited to kinda get your take on all this heart-led stuff.
• 2:26
  Kyle McDowell: I think we're meant to be together here today, so we've got a lot of common, I think, a lot of overlap in how we approach business and entrepreneurship.
• 2:31
  Kyle McDowell: So I'm, I think it's gonna be a great conversation.
• 2:33
  Tom Jackobs: Absolutely.
• 2:34
  Tom Jackobs: And of course I always like to ask, start with the first question, which is, what's your definition of a heart-led business?
• 2:42
  Kyle McDowell: Um, I would actually answer the question in an odd way to remove the word heart and insert the word human.
• 2:49
  Kyle McDowell: So let's lead in a human centric way.
• 2:52
  Kyle McDowell: So, and that's my answer is that a heart-led business is gonna be led by a human who knows that he or she worked with other humans, not means to an end, not cogs in a wheel, not just another number.
• 3:03
  Kyle McDowell: There's a person with a personality and a family and a history and all the unique experiences and perspectives that they've lived throughout the, they, you're bringing that through the workplace.
• 3:12
  Kyle McDowell: But part of what fuels me today and where I became kind of disenfranchised from the whole corporate world.
• 3:18
  Kyle McDowell: The whole engine was watching and actually kind of perpetuating, you know, treating people like less than human.
• 3:25
  Kyle McDowell: Uh, all in a means with a means to an end.
• 3:27
  Kyle McDowell: It's, it was a shortsighted way of it is a shortsighted way of living and leading.
• 3:31
  Kyle McDowell: So I'd say human centric.
• 3:33
  Tom Jackobs: That means to the end is more profit, right?
• 3:36
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 3:37
  Tom Jackobs: That was the old way, right?
• 3:38
  Kyle McDowell: I'm a career operator.
• 3:39
  Kyle McDowell: So I was in the corporate world for, uh, nearly 30 years and I led really massive operations, tens of thousands of employees at, um, I worked for three Fortune 10 firms.
• 3:50
  Kyle McDowell: And I'll tell you one of the things that was like completely so pervasive throughout each of every stop of my career was this focus on results with a void of focus on the people who actually deliver the results.
• 4:05
  Kyle McDowell: And I was guilty of it as well, man.
• 4:07
  Kyle McDowell: I was raised in the corporate world watching bosses bang their fist on a desk, raise a voice, you know, if you gotta sick kid, don't care, see you on Saturday.
• 4:15
  Kyle McDowell: Those types of things.
• 4:16
  Kyle McDowell: So I was a product of that and I, you know, I perpetuated that.
• 4:20
  Kyle McDowell: But, um, when I realized the enormous impact and fulfillment that can be found when we kind of put aside the profit stuff, which I know is very important obviously, but also the tying it back to that to an operator, the operation stuff.
• 4:36
  Kyle McDowell: So it's all KPI driven it, it's a metrics, a heavy world if you're an operator or ops leader.
• 4:43
  Kyle McDowell: So when you talk about profit and having a heart-led business in spite of, or instead of focusing exclusively on the profit, I say the same about the operation results.
• 4:51
  Kyle McDowell: When I started to shift my focus on the people, the results came so much easier versus just focus exclusively on the results and try to pull the people along.
• 4:59
  Kyle McDowell: But if you start on the other direction and come forward, I think the results are so much, easily, much more easily attained, my experience.
• 5:07
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, my mine as well is like holding somebody's hand and you're leading them along with you versus the pushing, which somebody's gonna push right back at you.
• 5:17
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 5:17
  Tom Jackobs: As well.
• 5:17
  Tom Jackobs: It totally makes sense.
• 5:18
  Kyle McDowell: It's physics.
• 5:19
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah,
• 5:20
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 5:21
  Tom Jackobs: That's awesome.
• 5:22
  Tom Jackobs: So tell us a little bit about The WE principles and how you came up with them.
• 5:26
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah, please.
• 5:27
  Kyle McDowell: So I, um, yeah, as I mentioned I was a long time veteran of the corporate world, um, but it was probably around year 22 where, um, my level of apathy had reached such a point that I just felt like I couldn't continue doing what I was doing.
• 5:43
  Kyle McDowell: And at that point I was leading, um, a team of maybe 5,000 people.
• 5:48
  Kyle McDowell: And Tom, it's a real, it's a real kind of gut check to wake up and loath the environments that you were mainly responsible for creating.
• 5:58
  Kyle McDowell: So that was a real kind of gut, you know, punch to my gut.
• 6:00
  Kyle McDowell: It's like, dude, you created this environment.
• 6:02
  Kyle McDowell: Like, if you don't like this culture that you're in, you've got no one to blame but yourself.
• 6:07
  Kyle McDowell: And it put me in such a place where I was just like, I don't know that I want to be this guy any longer.
• 6:11
  Kyle McDowell: My, um, I was on the doorstep of a divorce that ultimately happened.
• 6:15
  Kyle McDowell: My health was not where it needed to be.
• 6:16
  Kyle McDowell: I just wasn't a, I wasn't a happy guy.
• 6:19
  Kyle McDowell: So at that point I was very fortunate I was able to say I stepped away.
• 6:23
  Kyle McDowell: I was able to leave the corporate world for a minute.
• 6:25
  Kyle McDowell: I knew I couldn't retire.
• 6:26
  Kyle McDowell: I certainly wasn't in that position, but I felt as if I could take a month or two off and kind of get my head right before stepping back into the fray.
• 6:34
  Kyle McDowell: Um, and then I was greeted with an opportunity that I really felt like it was the right fit within a couple of weeks of stepping away.
• 6:40
  Kyle McDowell: And so I took this role, which required me to lead about 15,000 people.
• 6:44
  Kyle McDowell: It's a$7 billion program.
• 6:47
  Kyle McDowell: And, um.
• 6:49
  Kyle McDowell: It was clear to me in the first month or two that there was some, I would say cultural challenges.
• 6:53
  Kyle McDowell: I wouldn't say the group was downright dysfunctional, but there were pockets of dysfunction for sure.
• 6:58
  Kyle McDowell: And with an organization that size, um, the likelihood of having pockets of excellence, but also having pockets of real toxicity and the two never even realizing it or recognizing that, hey, if one group within this group is not performing well, but the other one is we're not winning.
• 7:16
  Kyle McDowell: Right?
• 7:16
  Kyle McDowell: You might feel like you are'cause you're a little group over here'cause it's a group of 15,000 people.
• 7:20
  Kyle McDowell: There's certainly some high performers but also pockets of opportunity, but about 60 days into the role, I, um, I requested to bring the top 40 or 50 leaders of this organization, um, to a central location.
• 7:32
  Kyle McDowell: We had an office in Lawrence, Kansas, and, um, the night before I was gonna meet with these leaders.
• 7:39
  Kyle McDowell: Um, I realized it was a gut check moment for me.
• 7:42
  Kyle McDowell: It's like, okay, dude, you stepped away from the corporate world because you didn't like what you saw.
• 7:45
  Kyle McDowell: You didn't like the leader.
• 7:46
  Kyle McDowell: You'd become, you didn't like how you felt about what you were doing.
• 7:49
  Kyle McDowell: You were lacking fulfillment.
• 7:50
  Kyle McDowell: Alright?
• 7:51
  Kyle McDowell: But now you've come back to this position.
• 7:53
  Kyle McDowell: It's an even greater scope.
• 7:55
  Kyle McDowell: What are you about?
• 7:56
  Kyle McDowell: Are you gonna repeat the same recipe and get the same results?
• 7:59
  Kyle McDowell: Or are you gonna do something a little bit more difficult and try to be the leader that you've always wanted to be, and more importantly, be the leader that you've never had.
• 8:07
  Kyle McDowell: So, um, Tom, it was like midnight the night before, and, um, I was terrified, dude.
• 8:14
  Kyle McDowell: I didn't know what I was gonna say.
• 8:16
  Kyle McDowell: This imposter syndrome starts, creep, starts creeping in.
• 8:19
  Kyle McDowell: I have no, I was really nervous.
• 8:20
  Kyle McDowell: Um, but I created a PowerPoint that night was just a handful of pages and on the first page, and this came by the way, as a product of me kind of replaying scenarios throughout my 20 years at the time.
• 8:33
  Kyle McDowell: That just left me feeling less than whole, less left me feeling like I wasn't adding value, like I wasn't valued.
• 8:40
  Kyle McDowell: And then I juxtaposed that with some really great experiences with a few leaders that I was fortunate to work with throughout my career.
• 8:46
  Kyle McDowell: And I ended up with these 10 sentences and they were essentially kind of the rules of the road.
• 8:52
  Kyle McDowell: And they each started with the word we and I'm not super creative, so I have The 10 WE's.
• 8:58
  Kyle McDowell: But the umbrella spirit of these things were like, and I said this very clearly to the team the next day.
• 9:02
  Kyle McDowell: I said, these are the principles by which I expect you to hold me accountable.
• 9:09
  Kyle McDowell: I expect you to hold me to these because I will hold you accountable to these same principles.
• 9:14
  Kyle McDowell: Now, if you can't, if you can't subscribe to any one of these 10, I will help you find another role.
• 9:19
  Kyle McDowell: And I mean that sincerely.
• 9:20
  Kyle McDowell: I with no, no hard feelings.
• 9:22
  Kyle McDowell: We have, we're a big company, lots of opportunities.
• 9:24
  Kyle McDowell: I will help you, but this is who we're gonna be.
• 9:27
  Kyle McDowell: And these principles.
• 9:28
  Kyle McDowell: Um, by the way, I would say half the group was pretty optimistic.
• 9:32
  Kyle McDowell: A quarter of the group was like, eh, we'll see.
• 9:34
  Kyle McDowell: But there was a handful.
• 9:36
  Kyle McDowell: There was a handful that just thought I was full of it.
• 9:38
  Kyle McDowell: And, uh, I had some proving to do, had some trust to game.
• 9:41
  Kyle McDowell: But, um, that was 2017, um, that night and that next day changed my life because the transformation that, um, unfolded at that organization was nothing short or profound from a business results perspective.
• 9:55
  Kyle McDowell: It was really quantifiable, we could see all time highs in nearly every measurable.
• 10:01
  Kyle McDowell: But what was more impactful to me and what ultimately compelled me to write the book and set me on the journey that I'm now is watching bosses turn into leaders, people that actually give a shit about the person to their right and left.
• 10:12
  Kyle McDowell: So much so that I'm still, and more I still have, um, more regular contacts with members of that team who, with whom I haven't worked with since.
• 10:21
  Kyle McDowell: Probably another five or six years ago that I have probably the previous 20 years combined.
• 10:27
  Kyle McDowell: So that speaks to the value of those connections.
• 10:29
  Kyle McDowell: And these were the guys that encouraged me to write the book, one of one of my direct reports, who's now one of my closest colleagues helped name the book.
• 10:37
  Kyle McDowell: Um.
• 10:38
  Kyle McDowell: So those principles changed my life, and that's been, it's been my mission ever since then is to get the word out and chatting with guys like you helps that mission.
• 10:46
  Kyle McDowell: Of course, the book helps in that regard as well, but they've become the code of everything I do now, not just the professional world, but my personal life as well.
• 10:54
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 10:55
  Tom Jackobs: No.
• 10:55
  Tom Jackobs: And what a great story.
• 10:57
  Tom Jackobs: I can only imagine your, what was going through your head and your gut that evening.
• 11:02
  Kyle McDowell: What do you think?
• 11:03
  Kyle McDowell: What do you think was going through my head man, for real?
• 11:05
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 11:06
  Kyle McDowell: If you were in those shoes.
• 11:07
  Tom Jackobs: If I were in those shoes I would be like, probably in the toilet throwing up, uh, a little bit.
• 11:13
  Tom Jackobs: But also I'd probably be staring at my laptop
• 11:17
  Kyle McDowell: I did.
• 11:17
  Kyle McDowell: In powerpoint
• 11:17
  Tom Jackobs: and like trying to figure out, like crashing everything that I'd, uh, that I had planned and going, is this gonna work?
• 11:24
  Kyle McDowell: Sounds familiar.
• 11:26
  Tom Jackobs: Are they going to accept this?
• 11:28
  Tom Jackobs: Are they gonna laugh at me?
• 11:30
  Tom Jackobs: You know, all those
• 11:30
  Kyle McDowell: I got some of that.
• 11:31
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 11:32
  Kyle McDowell: I got some of that.
• 11:33
  Kyle McDowell: Yep.
• 11:33
  Kyle McDowell: I got some of that.
• 11:34
  Kyle McDowell: I had a peer, um, a colleague who was managing, um, a portfolio quite a bit smaller, but still a good sized portfolio, call me corny to my face.
• 11:44
  Kyle McDowell: Uh, and he said it as a term of endearment.
• 11:46
  Kyle McDowell: Like he said it as if it was a compliment.
• 11:48
  Kyle McDowell: Um, and he giggled as you said it.
• 11:50
  Kyle McDowell: But, uh, and I did take it kind of as an insult, but then I was like, you know what?
• 11:54
  Kyle McDowell: Call me corny all day, brother.
• 11:55
  Kyle McDowell: If it's effective and we're making, and we're doing things that this team's not done before, and the impact that we're having for each other is exponentially greater than what it was then, okay, I'll roll corny all day.
• 12:06
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, of course.
• 12:08
  Kyle McDowell: Why not?
• 12:09
  Tom Jackobs: When you went into that role.
• 12:13
  Tom Jackobs: Was there already kind of writing on the wall in terms of there needs to be a dramatic shift in the organization and the culture.
• 12:21
  Kyle McDowell: Um, it was very obvious.
• 12:24
  Kyle McDowell: Um, and there were two things that I thought, um, were screaming at me.
• 12:28
  Kyle McDowell: Well, the first is the fellow that I replaced was dismissed.
• 12:31
  Kyle McDowell: Um.
• 12:32
  Tom Jackobs: Okay.
• 12:33
  Kyle McDowell: I don't even know the specifics behind it, but, and it was obvious to me that the relationship he had with several members of really influential leaders on the team was not good.
• 12:44
  Kyle McDowell: And I heard some, and once we got to know each other and worked with each other for a little while, I heard some horror stories.
• 12:49
  Kyle McDowell: I quoted a couple in the book.
• 12:50
  Kyle McDowell: But, um, that, and I could sense from my, my, my boss, I could sense from him that there was some fatigue.
• 12:59
  Kyle McDowell: Um.
• 13:01
  Kyle McDowell: And I remember at one point he even said, and he said it in some kind of crude way, but it was kind of funny, but essentially saying it was time to get some people out, make some hard changes.
• 13:11
  Kyle McDowell: And I was like, well, what?
• 13:13
  Kyle McDowell: Why now?
• 13:14
  Kyle McDowell: Because I'm'cause a new guy's here like that, they didn't wake up yesterday and start being under performers.
• 13:20
  Kyle McDowell: Like something had to have happened between, you know.
• 13:23
  Kyle McDowell: More recently that someone else should have addressed, but okay.
• 13:25
  Kyle McDowell: If you want me to take some cows out to pasture, which I think honestly was the expression he used with me.
• 13:31
  Tom Jackobs: Oh wow.
• 13:31
  Kyle McDowell: Um, so the way he, yeah, so, right, so, so I could tell by his level of, yeah, dude, it was, there was no, it was no, there was no ambiguity.
• 13:39
  Kyle McDowell: He felt as if some folks had kind of their role or outstayed their role their effectiveness.
• 13:45
  Kyle McDowell: But Anyway, yeah, so it was obvious between that fellow being dismissed before me.
• 13:49
  Kyle McDowell: Some of the horror stories I started to hear.
• 13:51
  Kyle McDowell: And then also I could just sense from my boss that he was looking for someone, I think he was smart in that he recognized there were opportunities to kind of change the dynamic of the organization.
• 14:00
  Kyle McDowell: It was obvious he wasn't the guy to do it.
• 14:03
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 14:03
  Kyle McDowell: But he at least I think, was smart enough to recognize the need was there and he felt maybe I was the guy to do that.
• 14:08
  Kyle McDowell: I didn't know I was the guy to do that until that night in Lawrence, Kansas.
• 14:13
  Tom Jackobs: Interesting.
• 14:14
  Tom Jackobs: Now for their profitability challenges prior to that as well?
• 14:19
  Tom Jackobs: Is that maybe what precipitated him bringing you in?
• 14:23
  Kyle McDowell: I would, no, I don't think there were profitability issues as much as there were, um, um, customer service issues and on, on a very macro basis.
• 14:32
  Kyle McDowell: So this$7 billion program was really, is kind of the parent of two sub-programs.
• 14:38
  Kyle McDowell: Um, that we delivered for the federal government.
• 14:41
  Kyle McDowell: So it was 1-800-MEDICARE, um, telephonic enrollment and the Affordable Care Act.
• 14:46
  Kyle McDowell: So two massive, uh, really important programs.
• 14:49
  Kyle McDowell: And at the time, um, I don't think the client was really happy with our level of performance.
• 14:55
  Kyle McDowell: So I think it was performance issue, probably coupled with, not great, uh, employee engagement scores.
• 15:02
  Kyle McDowell: So it was an experience thing that was happening for both our customer, our biggest customer, and the employees inside the organization.
• 15:07
  Kyle McDowell: Just didn't feel as if they were really adding the value that they could or should.
• 15:13
  Tom Jackobs: Well, and that would drive negative profitability as well.
• 15:16
  Tom Jackobs: If that continues, if customer service keeps going down and employee engagement keeps going down, then they're not
• 15:22
  Kyle McDowell: You bet it does.
• 15:23
  Kyle McDowell: You bet it does.
• 15:24
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 15:25
  Kyle McDowell: You bet it does.
• 15:26
  Kyle McDowell: I didn't look at it exclusively from a profit perspective.
• 15:29
  Kyle McDowell: I looked at it from a perspective of what opportunities with this massive client are we not capitalizing on, in other words, where can we go deeper on this relationship?
• 15:38
  Kyle McDowell: So we've got this relationship in this agreement for this very finite i'll, albeit, you know, broad spectrum, but it's a finite set of tasks.
• 15:46
  Kyle McDowell: Can we go bigger?
• 15:48
  Kyle McDowell: And the way to get bigger or go bigger, I thought, and it turned out to be true, was strengthening that relationship.
• 15:55
  Kyle McDowell: Right?
• 15:55
  Kyle McDowell: Letting them know that we're, uh, we are not dysfunctional behind the curtains.
• 15:58
  Kyle McDowell: We, we are a high functioning team who cares about each other?
• 16:01
  Kyle McDowell: 'cause I just believe so strongly that if you're dysfunctional behind the scenes, the client feels that.
• 16:07
  Tom Jackobs: Absolutely.
• 16:07
  Kyle McDowell: And if you are high functioning.
• 16:08
  Kyle McDowell: You've got a group of people that don't just have the same badge.
• 16:12
  Kyle McDowell: They actually feel as if they are part of a team.
• 16:14
  Kyle McDowell: I think the client feels that as well.
• 16:16
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 16:17
  Tom Jackobs: So what was the transformation like and how quickly did that happen.
• 16:21
  Kyle McDowell: It took a while.
• 16:22
  Kyle McDowell: Uh, by the way, that, that is a very similar question that I get a lot now in my, in what I do today working with companies is how long does this type of transformation take?
• 16:31
  Kyle McDowell: And they hate the answer and answer.
• 16:32
  Kyle McDowell: I don't know.
• 16:34
  Kyle McDowell: 'cause I don't know how bad it is.
• 16:35
  Kyle McDowell: I don't know how committed you are.
• 16:36
  Kyle McDowell: I don't know if this is a check the box initiative.
• 16:38
  Kyle McDowell: I don't know if you're genuinely looking to drive a big change, but from my, in my experience, that very first transformation after introducing the principles, I would say so the problem with that question for me was, man is I never be at first I didn't believe the transformation was genuine.
• 16:56
  Kyle McDowell: There's always this, for me, there was always this, okay, there's a.
• 16:59
  Kyle McDowell: There's some brown nosing of the new boss.
• 17:01
  Kyle McDowell: There is, you know, we're trying to endear ourselves, so let's just tell him what he wants to hear.
• 17:06
  Kyle McDowell: And then I would visit, so every month, uh, the senior leadership group and I, we would, we had 11 locations.
• 17:11
  Kyle McDowell: We would bounce from one site to the next every single month and do town halls and focus groups and just really get to know and dive deep into those site specific problems.
• 17:20
  Kyle McDowell: I'll never forget this, and I forget what city it was, but I'll never forget.
• 17:23
  Kyle McDowell: We showed up one morning, my team and I, we come rolling in and you've seen this, right?
• 17:27
  Kyle McDowell: The executives come rolling in and everybody's on their best behavior.
• 17:30
  Kyle McDowell: They dressed differently that day, which is this whole thing that I just really loathed to be honest.
• 17:36
  Kyle McDowell: Um, what I used to take pride in it and it was an ego thing, but now I'm like, no, I don't.
• 17:41
  Kyle McDowell: You guys need to be you.
• 17:42
  Kyle McDowell: But anyway, I would, we showed up at this one location and I saw signage on the walls.
• 17:47
  Kyle McDowell: That I never commissioned, didn't know was out there.
• 17:50
  Kyle McDowell: And then I, in that same location, I saw coffee cups.
• 17:53
  Kyle McDowell: I was like, hang on a second, man.
• 17:54
  Kyle McDowell: Th there's some momentum here.
• 17:56
  Kyle McDowell: And it was finally sented for me, probably about nine or maybe even 12 months in when kinda my right hand person, uh, her name was Lori, a woman that I just so adore to this day.
• 18:07
  Kyle McDowell: Who I have tremendous respect for as well.
• 18:09
  Kyle McDowell: She was telling me how a 10 We story something at one of the, our locations, was a real obvious display of someone really embracing the principles.
• 18:18
  Kyle McDowell: She's telling me this story and I kind of, I guess I kind of rolled my eyes or I didn't react the way that she was hoping I would react.
• 18:23
  Kyle McDowell: And because my, it was my inner voice saying, yeah, there's some brown nosing going on here.
• 18:28
  Kyle McDowell: You know, you guys are trying to appease the new boss.
• 18:30
  Kyle McDowell: And she noticed it and she, like very abruptly said, would you just stop?
• 18:35
  Kyle McDowell: She had the most serious look on her.
• 18:36
  Kyle McDowell: Would you just stop?
• 18:37
  Kyle McDowell: It's working.
• 18:39
  Kyle McDowell: She kind of, I don't know, I think she grabbed me by the arm, or she just was very forceful in her response, and I'd never seen her kind of perk up like that.
• 18:46
  Kyle McDowell: And that was the moment for me.
• 18:47
  Kyle McDowell: I'm like, all right, there's a real, there's something happening here.
• 18:51
  Kyle McDowell: And it actually kind of fueled me to even be more overt with my messaging, how conspicuous I am in embracing them.
• 18:57
  Kyle McDowell: We started so many years ago wearing these bracelets, and I still wear one to this day, as a reminder of, you know, trying to live the way that I think I want to live and be perceived the way that I think I wanna be perceived.
• 19:09
  Kyle McDowell: So, um, I think all in all now, and please, I don't want your audience to to feel misled.
• 19:16
  Kyle McDowell: We didn't get a hundred percent.
• 19:18
  Kyle McDowell: There weren't, it was not a hundred percent adoption.
• 19:20
  Kyle McDowell: There was always some right.
• 19:22
  Kyle McDowell: Okay.
• 19:23
  Kyle McDowell: I just don't wanna make it sound like it, this fairytale.
• 19:26
  Kyle McDowell: 'cause there was a lot of skepticism and I could tell, you know, regardless of what I would see, there was a, there was some obstinate uh, folks that just felt like I was full of it.
• 19:36
  Tom Jackobs: Change is hard.
• 19:37
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah, man.
• 19:38
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 19:38
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 19:38
  Kyle McDowell: Especially at work because we're so, we enter the workplace almost naturally a little less trust, uh, trusting and a little bit, maybe less trustworthy in some environments.
• 19:49
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 19:50
  Tom Jackobs: So when you're going through this and leading with the heart, clearly, you know, as you said earlier, profitability wasn't necessarily kinda at the forefront, but obviously as you implemented the program, the profitability did increase.
• 20:06
  Tom Jackobs: Still while being heart-led.
• 20:08
  Tom Jackobs: What was that like?
• 20:09
  Tom Jackobs: Was that a complete shift or what were you feeling like as you're seeing this and you're your proverbial baby kinda growing up and doing something great.
• 20:18
  Kyle McDowell: Two thoughts come to mind with that question.
• 20:20
  Kyle McDowell: So, in this relationship, um, we had a base kind of fee schedule, but then two or three times a year we would, we were eligible for a fairly significant bonus based on our performance.
• 20:33
  Kyle McDowell: And, we went on a run, um, two or three years worth of unprecedented achievement in terms of the per, so there's a pool of bonus, right?
• 20:43
  Kyle McDowell: And usually get anywhere from like 70% of that pool to 90%, maybe a hundred percent if you're really lucky.
• 20:48
  Kyle McDowell: But it's who knows, but it's always based on performance.
• 20:51
  Kyle McDowell: And we went on a run that we received, percentages that we had never seen before and what that did, so there's obviously a lot of pride that comes with that.
• 21:00
  Kyle McDowell: When the team sees, wow, we've not gotten this before, like, I'm new.
• 21:03
  Kyle McDowell: So, but to them it's like, wow, we've not seen that level of bonus before.
• 21:06
  Kyle McDowell: So which created this momentum, but like, we wanna do more, we wanna see more, we wanna achieve more, we want to get a higher percentage next round.
• 21:15
  Kyle McDowell: So that was kind of self-fulfilling.
• 21:17
  Kyle McDowell: But then the second, the second scenario or the second thing that comes to mind is, the difference that we started to see with, and it's harder to quantify, but it was the change from boss to leader where people really, they would recognize when someone else was struggling or another department was struggling, they'd throw their hand up and say, yeah, I'm gonna go spend some time in that group today.
• 21:38
  Kyle McDowell: Or I'm gonna go, I'm gonna see what needs because they didn't seem like they had all their stuff together in the staff meeting this morning.
• 21:45
  Kyle McDowell: So we started to see people really take more of a macro view of our success versus, you know, any one person being successful in this kind of, like, for someone to win someone else must lose paradigm.
• 21:55
  Kyle McDowell: Really became a team oriented, uh, endeavor.
• 21:59
  Kyle McDowell: And I think to this day there's probably an element of team within that group that's, that's very different and stronger than it probably ever would've been otherwise.
• 22:09
  Kyle McDowell: And they still adopt, they still use these principles.
• 22:12
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, no, that's interesting because you know, I've 12 years in corporate.
• 22:17
  Tom Jackobs: Corporate, hell as well.
• 22:19
  Tom Jackobs: And it was always like divisions, right?
• 22:22
  Tom Jackobs: And it was very siloed and it would, what you're describing would never happen where one division would look at another and say, Hey, what can we do to help them?
• 22:30
  Tom Jackobs: Usually it was like, they're the problem.
• 22:33
  Tom Jackobs: They need to fix their stuff.
• 22:34
  Kyle McDowell: We'd be better if they were better, right?
• 22:36
  Tom Jackobs: Right.
• 22:37
  Tom Jackobs: And you know, I bring back the profit quite a bit A lot of heart-led business owners and people that are working in companies that are heart-led as well, sometimes don't believe that they should have a profit.
• 22:49
  Tom Jackobs: That there's, it's one or the other.
• 22:51
  Tom Jackobs: You're either heart-led or you're building a profit.
• 22:55
  Tom Jackobs: You can have both.
• 22:56
  Tom Jackobs: And in fact, you can probably have a better profit if you're more heart-led.
• 23:01
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 23:02
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 23:02
  Kyle McDowell: Amen.
• 23:03
  Kyle McDowell: Amen.
• 23:03
  Kyle McDowell: With greater impact.
• 23:04
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 23:05
  Kyle McDowell: Amen.
• 23:06
  Kyle McDowell: And, but let me throw a challenge to you though.
• 23:09
  Kyle McDowell: So I'm gonna guess you and I are, um, gosh, I hope this lands.
• 23:13
  Kyle McDowell: Well, I'm gonna guess you and I are similar in age.
• 23:16
  Kyle McDowell: Like born in the seventies.
• 23:17
  Kyle McDowell: Fair?
• 23:18
  Tom Jackobs: 70?
• 23:19
  Tom Jackobs: Yes.
• 23:20
  Kyle McDowell: Okay.
• 23:20
  Kyle McDowell: Good for you.
• 23:21
  Kyle McDowell: You look great.
• 23:21
  Kyle McDowell: You look fantastic.
• 23:23
  Kyle McDowell: Um.
• 23:24
  Kyle McDowell: Uh, what did you observe?
• 23:29
  Kyle McDowell: What you're a product of, what leadership example?
• 23:33
  Kyle McDowell: Like what compelled you to lead the way you led, especially earlier in your career?
• 23:37
  Kyle McDowell: And the ultimate question where I'm going with this is if you would've if your if you would've talked to your 22-year-old, 25-year-old self,
• 23:46
  Tom Jackobs: Yep.
• 23:46
  Kyle McDowell: would you buy in to what you are kind of evangelizing today?
• 23:52
  Tom Jackobs: No.
• 23:53
  Kyle McDowell: I wouldn't either.
• 23:54
  Tom Jackobs: Not at all.
• 23:54
  Kyle McDowell: That's the challenge, brother.
• 23:55
  Kyle McDowell: That's the challenge.
• 23:56
  Kyle McDowell: How do we change that?
• 23:58
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 23:59
  Kyle McDowell: You with me?
• 24:00
  Kyle McDowell: You know what I mean?
• 24:01
  Tom Jackobs: Absolutely.
• 24:01
  Tom Jackobs: And I think it is changing'cause I don't see, and you know, it's been 20, 30 years since I've been in corporate.
• 24:08
  Tom Jackobs: Um, but even the friends that are in corporate, there's still the politics, but there's, it's much more heart-led than it was like
• 24:18
  Kyle McDowell: Totally?
• 24:19
  Tom Jackobs: I mean I was In corporate.
• 24:19
  Tom Jackobs: It was, you know, management by walking around was the big buzzword then, and zero defects and six sigma.
• 24:26
  Tom Jackobs: And there were just buzzwords to me.
• 24:28
  Tom Jackobs: I was just like, you know, I'm just here to make a paycheck.
• 24:31
  Tom Jackobs: I wanna advance, I was advance advance, and I would get slapped down because I didn't have an engineering degree.
• 24:38
  Tom Jackobs: To go into sales at a chemical company, they're like, oh no, Tom, you need a chemical engineering degree in order to, or an
• 24:46
  Kyle McDowell: MBA.
• 24:47
  Kyle McDowell: To sell?
• 24:48
  Tom Jackobs: Like, you seen engineers at this company selling?
• 24:53
  Kyle McDowell: Or any company.
• 24:54
  Kyle McDowell: That's a, that's kind of a tough combination of skills, right?
• 24:57
  Tom Jackobs: It is, and then it takes a really special person that is both
• 25:00
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 25:00
  Tom Jackobs: right and left brained and which just kind of doing all that and it just, it was so frustrating that there wasn't that support, there wasn't that open-mindedness.
• 25:09
  Tom Jackobs: You know, eventually I, you know, I left corporate Americans started doing my own thing and I take those lessons of what I didn't like.
• 25:18
  Kyle McDowell: Right.
• 25:18
  Tom Jackobs: And I brought that to, you know, my different businesses that I've had over the years.
• 25:24
  Kyle McDowell: Some of the best, uh, learnings that I've, that I was fortunate enough to receive came from really crappy bosses.
• 25:31
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 25:32
  Kyle McDowell: You know, I'm with you.
• 25:34
  Kyle McDowell: Well, I think that's the challenge is right is getting, and I do believe I'm with you.
• 25:38
  Kyle McDowell: I think there is a bit of a shift.
• 25:40
  Kyle McDowell: We're the shift massive, obviously massive shifts in the workplace but the approach that leaders are taking today, I think is shifting.
• 25:47
  Kyle McDowell: And I think that's a, an evolution, that we're seeing.
• 25:50
  Kyle McDowell: But I just know that there's still a fair amount of cynicism and even skepticism.
• 25:55
  Kyle McDowell: From all age brackets in the workplace that, you know, you're just out for yourself.
• 25:59
  Kyle McDowell: This is kind of a doggy dog killer, be killed environment.
• 26:02
  Kyle McDowell: I gotta look out for me.
• 26:03
  Kyle McDowell: And that's, boy, it's exhausting and it sure is.
• 26:06
  Kyle McDowell: It is the, it is a not, it's not sustainable over long periods of time, which is what I learned.
• 26:12
  Tom Jackobs: Yep.
• 26:12
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 26:13
  Tom Jackobs: Even with my current team it probably took two years for them to know that I really meant it's okay to make a mistake.
• 26:22
  Kyle McDowell: Really.
• 26:23
  Tom Jackobs: And to just be open and honest with me and just like, Hey, if you got a problem, let me know.
• 26:29
  Tom Jackobs: And now they are, they're like, Hey, Tom, I'm really struggling right now.
• 26:33
  Tom Jackobs: Great.
• 26:33
  Tom Jackobs: What do you need?
• 26:33
  Tom Jackobs: What do you need from me
• 26:34
  Kyle McDowell: yeah.
• 26:34
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 26:35
  Tom Jackobs: to, to help you.
• 26:36
  Kyle McDowell: My favorite question.
• 26:37
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 26:37
  Tom Jackobs: What do you need.
• 26:37
  Kyle McDowell: Yep.
• 26:38
  Kyle McDowell: Yep.
• 26:38
  Kyle McDowell: Good for you.
• 26:39
  Kyle McDowell: Well, I think what you just highlight though is we've all, we all bring our baggage, if you will, to the table.
• 26:46
  Kyle McDowell: They didn't just, their lack of trust in you had nothing to do with you.
• 26:50
  Tom Jackobs: Of course not.
• 26:51
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 26:51
  Kyle McDowell: It's what we've all experienced, but you sure had to earn it.
• 26:54
  Kyle McDowell: It sounds like two years was a time to earn it.
• 26:56
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah, man.
• 26:57
  Kyle McDowell: Good for you.
• 26:57
  Kyle McDowell: That's a great story.
• 26:59
  Tom Jackobs: Well, and it, and well, thank you for that.
• 27:01
  Tom Jackobs: And it, It's all about perseverance as well, and I think a lot of heart-led business owners that are listening to the show are maybe a little shortsighted and they want something right away.
• 27:13
  Tom Jackobs: Does, you know?
• 27:14
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 27:15
  Tom Jackobs: Being profit driven, I think you can create that profit right away and you'll have that profit, but it's not, it's short-lived.
• 27:21
  Tom Jackobs: Versus a heart-led business it take you a little bit longer to get the, get to the profitability that you want.
• 27:27
  Tom Jackobs: last a lot longer and be much more fulfilling.
• 27:30
  Kyle McDowell: That's the key.
• 27:31
  Kyle McDowell: Yes, sir.
• 27:31
  Kyle McDowell: I'm with you on that.
• 27:32
  Kyle McDowell: Right on.
• 27:34
  Tom Jackobs: So when you're going and working with companies, what is the common issue that they're hiring you for?
• 27:42
  Kyle McDowell: Well, there seems to be two schools or kind of two profiles.
• 27:46
  Kyle McDowell: The first is the one I try to kind of sniff out and stay away from, and that is they've probably, have done an employee engagement or employee satisfaction survey recently, the scores weren't what they wanted to be, so let's create an initiative.
• 27:59
  Kyle McDowell: Let's check a box and let's bring some bestselling author in and we're gonna, everything's gonna be better.
• 28:05
  Kyle McDowell: Everything's better tomorrow.
• 28:07
  Kyle McDowell: Um, and that, and then the other group is my favorite and obviously where I like to spend my time.
• 28:12
  Kyle McDowell: And that's, we got some work to do.
• 28:15
  Kyle McDowell: You know, by and large we're pretty good people here, but we've got we're not where we want to be and we know we can be better.
• 28:24
  Kyle McDowell: That doesn't, and that's, and that is, uh, agnostic to industry.
• 28:28
  Kyle McDowell: It's agnostic.
• 28:29
  Kyle McDowell: I've mean, I've worked from with school districts to title insurance companies, to automotive manufacturers.
• 28:36
  Kyle McDowell: A botanical garden are my favorite clients.
• 28:39
  Kyle McDowell: And either of those profiles, they get out of it what they put into it.
• 28:43
  Kyle McDowell: In other words, right?
• 28:44
  Kyle McDowell: So if it's a check the box, then you know, I'll check in a month or two later, maybe six months later, and nothing's changed and I'm not surprised.
• 28:52
  Kyle McDowell: Uh, and but those that are like, you know what, we're gonna, we're gonna rope off three intense days to go deep into the principles of this book.
• 28:59
  Kyle McDowell: We have a workbook that we sell that goes along with the book and.
• 29:02
  Kyle McDowell: And we'll facilitate a multi-day session to walk people through the concepts the rationale for why they matter.
• 29:09
  Kyle McDowell: What happens if you don't kind of embrace any one of these principles and success stories that come when you do, when you see that they're willing to kind of set aside the real business in which they engage every day to spend focused energy on.
• 29:23
  Kyle McDowell: A transformation, or at least the beginnings of a transformation that get, that fuels me.
• 29:28
  Kyle McDowell: And it's obvious that it's genuine on their side.
• 29:30
  Kyle McDowell: It's there's an authentic desire.
• 29:31
  Kyle McDowell: Those, but the traits or the characteristics that are usually so, so loud you can't avoid them is ego.
• 29:40
  Kyle McDowell: And that's when there's a bit of territorial aspect to inside, inside the organization, but also it's them, not me.
• 29:49
  Kyle McDowell: It's, you know, it's, if I could just get them to do this or if I could just get my folks to, to, if I just get, it's always something else for somebody else.
• 29:56
  Kyle McDowell: And there's this real need for self-reflection and introspection.
• 29:59
  Kyle McDowell: That is a lot of what I talk about.
• 30:01
  Kyle McDowell: It's like, you gotta look in the mirror, man.
• 30:03
  Kyle McDowell: Gotta look in the mirror and what, you know, they're talking about you at their dinner table.
• 30:07
  Kyle McDowell: So, but you control what they say, whether you realize it or not.
• 30:11
  Kyle McDowell: So what do you want them to say?
• 30:12
  Kyle McDowell: Behave in the way that you would want them to say, and your examples being replicated.
• 30:15
  Kyle McDowell: That's the goal.
• 30:17
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 30:17
  Tom Jackobs: Wow.
• 30:18
  Tom Jackobs: That little sentence that you just said I think is absolute gold that they're talking about you anyway.
• 30:24
  Tom Jackobs: How do you want to be perceived.
• 30:25
  Kyle McDowell: It's up to you.
• 30:26
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah.
• 30:27
  Tom Jackobs: Totally up to us.
• 30:28
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 30:29
  Kyle McDowell: I was having a talk with my wife last night, man.
• 30:31
  Kyle McDowell: She's, uh, she's in a role now where it's clear, that those in a, you know, level of authority or position of authority, they care more about checking boxes and making sure that every single, like they, they ma they manage, they don't lead.
• 30:49
  Kyle McDowell: And by management, by managing, I mean, it's all about very speci like, um, our policy says this, you will not deviate from this policy or even come close to deviating from that policy.
• 31:01
  Kyle McDowell: Instead of saying, Hey, what's going on?
• 31:03
  Kyle McDowell: Why is this happening?
• 31:04
  Kyle McDowell: What can we do to, and it's a check the box thing.
• 31:07
  Kyle McDowell: And it's very, as you know, very different paradigm managing versus leading.
• 31:10
  Kyle McDowell: And it's super pervasive and, um and I share that because we were talking about it at dinner table last night, and the story, she, the story she tells, I'm like, it doesn't have to be this way.
• 31:20
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 31:21
  Kyle McDowell: But nobody's taking the time to actually, to ask themselves tough questions.
• 31:25
  Kyle McDowell: Am I having the impact I want to have as a leader?
• 31:28
  Kyle McDowell: Am I fulfilled in what I do?
• 31:30
  Kyle McDowell: Am I, do I have some satisfaction?
• 31:32
  Kyle McDowell: Like what's my leadership legacy gonna be?
• 31:34
  Kyle McDowell: When people start to think in those terms and ask themselves those questions, they behave differently.
• 31:39
  Kyle McDowell: And that's where I think some opportunity is we always have that opportunity.
• 31:43
  Kyle McDowell: I still have it.
• 31:44
  Kyle McDowell: I still try to ask myself those same questions.
• 31:47
  Tom Jackobs: You need to always check in and make sure you're progressing and asking those hard questions, uh, frequently or else you're just.
• 31:54
  Kyle McDowell: So true.
• 31:54
  Tom Jackobs: stagnant.
• 31:56
  Kyle McDowell: Mediocre.
• 31:57
  Tom Jackobs: Mediocre.
• 31:57
  Tom Jackobs: Oh,
• 31:58
  Kyle McDowell: Yeah man.
• 31:59
  Tom Jackobs: hate hate that word.
• 31:59
  Kyle McDowell: What a four letter word mediocre.
• 32:01
  Tom Jackobs: I know, right?
• 32:02
  Kyle McDowell: Right.
• 32:02
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 32:04
  Tom Jackobs: Well, Kyle, I can't believe the time has gone by as quickly as it has.
• 32:07
  Tom Jackobs: Great conversation.
• 32:08
  Kyle McDowell: What a pleasure.
• 32:09
  Tom Jackobs: Great nuggets to share with others that are struggling with being heart-led and that there is light at the end of the tunnel, that you can be profitable and be heart-led same time So how people learn more about you and The 10 WE's?
• 32:24
  Kyle McDowell: Well, thank you for that.
• 32:26
  Kyle McDowell: So my book is Begin With We 10 Principles for Building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence.
• 32:31
  Kyle McDowell: It's a USA Today and Wall Street Journal bestseller.
• 32:34
  Tom Jackobs: Awesome.
• 32:35
  Kyle McDowell: My website is pretty simple, kylemcdowellinc.com, and I'm a, I'm on essentially all social media platforms with the same handle@kylemcdowellinc.
• 32:44
  Kyle McDowell: Um, and I love using social media not as an opportunity for, you know, clout, likes, and.
• 32:49
  Kyle McDowell: Those vanity metrics, I use it to engage and, um, every now and then, a lot more lately than maybe historically I get I get hit from a reader here and there asking, you know, what do you think about this situation?
• 33:02
  Kyle McDowell: Or sometimes they say, you know what, Kyle, you're full of it.
• 33:05
  Kyle McDowell: This is not something that's gonna live in my organization.
• 33:07
  Kyle McDowell: It's not gonna work.
• 33:08
  Kyle McDowell: You're naive.
• 33:08
  Kyle McDowell: But I love engaging because it's, that's how change is made.
• 33:12
  Tom Jackobs: Exactly.
• 33:13
  Tom Jackobs: And challenging too.
• 33:14
  Kyle McDowell: My favorite.
• 33:15
  Kyle McDowell: We challenge each other.
• 33:16
  Tom Jackobs: That's right.
• 33:18
  Tom Jackobs: Well, Kyle, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with us.
• 33:22
  Tom Jackobs: I really appreciate it and I know our listeners, uh, really appreciate it as well.
• 33:26
  Kyle McDowell: You're doing great work, Tom.
• 33:27
  Kyle McDowell: Really important stuff and I'm happy to be a part of it, so thank you for having me.
• 33:31
  Tom Jackobs: You're welcome.
• 33:32
  Tom Jackobs: And thank you listeners for tuning in for today's episode.
• 33:36
  Tom Jackobs: We really do appreciate it and make sure you're checking out everything that Kyle is doing.
• 33:39
  Tom Jackobs: We're gonna link all of that up into the show notes,'cause just right down below in the episode in the show notes, you can grab all that, click away and check it out.
• 33:48
  Tom Jackobs: And definitely take those 10 WE's and bring them into your heart.
• 33:52
  Tom Jackobs: Also, if you could do me a favor and share this episode with a friend or a family member that could use the advice that Kyle shared as well, that would be really helpful for building the show and helping more people be heart-led.
• 34:04
  Tom Jackobs: And until next time, lead with your heart.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to The Heart-Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.