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Silence is Not Consent: Setting Boundaries in Dance, with Paloma Alves (S05 Ep65) · ZoukNerds • Learn | Build | Belong

0:00
I haven't worn underwear in the last 10 years.
0:02
Do I have to wear one now? In Brazil, the norm is to have
0:06
underwear that are tight to the body and keep things in place,
0:10
but in many other areas of the world they wear shorts and then
0:14
when they come to dancing The thing is just free flowing.
0:17
Everywhere. Hey, maybe you misunderstand.
0:19
I don't want nothing else from the dance, so thank you and bye.
0:23
Your body is not used to this amount of sensorial stimulation,
0:29
so the only he knows how to react is this way.
0:32
You are the one to be responsible, to understand what
0:35
makes you feel safe. Because doesn't matter who is in
0:39
front of me, my body is the one that has the big answer.
0:43
Always. He was unaware that he singles
0:45
touching people, so he was just going by learning the moves,
0:48
wanting to learn the moves. I think it's also important to
0:51
emphasize here that silence is not consent.
0:54
Just because they're not saying something verbally, that doesn't
0:57
mean they are there for 100%. Whatever reaction that you have
1:02
your right to have, whatever emotion that comes are welcome
1:05
to come. You are the best person.
1:07
Not me, not me, not Alison. No one to tell you what is the
1:12
best for you. What do you do when you feel the
1:17
presence of something between us?
1:21
When you feel uncomfortable during a dance, is it rude to
1:24
stop? And why is silent not consent?
1:29
And what are the steps you can take to protect your experience?
1:34
Well, let's find out. Hello.
1:37
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Zoo Canarians.
1:40
In this episode, joined by Gibrada and Paloma Alvis, we
1:44
dive into a highly requested and delicate topic.
1:49
Intimacy, boundaries and physical comfort and close hold.
1:53
Social dancing. We'll discuss the practicalities
1:57
for leaders, like wearing proper underwear, and share advice for
2:01
followers on how to safely set and enforce boundaries,
2:05
especially when you're feeling unsafe and confused.
2:10
It's a vital conversation for a healthier community, so let's
2:16
go. Hello, hello everyone and
2:25
welcome back to another episode. My name is Alison Sanji and once
2:29
again we have our beautiful Co host here.
2:32
Hello, GI. Prada.
2:34
Hello, Alison. Hello everybody.
2:36
Welcome back and once. Back, back, back again as
2:40
promised and we are very glad that we made it work.
2:43
Paloma is back with us. Hello.
2:46
Hello guys, I'm happy to be back.
2:49
Yes, he's back to be back once again.
2:55
And today we're going to be talking about an episode that
2:59
has been highly requested in our private messages and also
3:05
discussed multiple times in our Zook Nerds Facebook group, which
3:10
is the fact that in partner dancing special in Brazilian
3:13
Zook, we dance quite close to each other and sometimes there
3:18
is a presence of something in between US.
3:22
And again, I wanted multiple times to bring this topic and
3:26
make an episode, but we felt like it would be better and more
3:29
correct if we had another teacher who is also a female and
3:34
a follower who can help us navigate through the layers of
3:38
this topic, right? So let's talk about it.
3:41
Paloma What, what, what, how? I don't even know what to say
3:47
now, so let's talk about it. Paloma, how do we approach this
3:53
and what are the layers that you think we should discuss here to
3:57
help us leaders or followers in the community?
4:03
Can I see something real quick of?
4:04
Course. Before I give it to you is not
4:11
only we got this request in messages and Facebook group and
4:15
stuff, but we also got this request in person weekend and
4:19
that we did recently that we had at least three or four of the
4:22
followers in the class saying, Oh my gosh, can you guys please
4:26
talk about this? I don't know what to do.
4:29
I don't know how to react. Do I stay, do I go?
4:32
You know, so it's really actually an amazing opportunity
4:36
I think for us to discuss this here with Paloma because we're
4:41
going to have that chance to really explore all not all the
4:44
layers, but several of the layers.
4:46
Yeah, they are involved in the matter of feeling the presence
4:51
of a between us, so. Let's get to it.
4:55
Let's get to it. Let's get to it.
4:56
How do you even start? I'm laughing so much because I'm
5:00
shy, but I will try my best to talk about this delicated topic.
5:04
Let's say like that, you know, many layers about that.
5:08
Let's say one of the ones, and especially because of what the
5:13
students talked to us or asked was like what I do when I feel
5:18
the presence of a during the dance.
5:22
So it's not so comfortable. I would say it can take
5:27
sometimes my attention for the desk when I feel that it's there
5:31
and it's not placed to the right, to the left to the left
5:35
to the left. Yes.
5:37
It's so much easier to have a proper connection body to body
5:43
when you don't need to think about it like, oh, it's here and
5:46
we can go to the place of oh, it's just a body.
5:50
It's just a part of the body. Yes, for sure, but we also
5:53
understand that as human beings, we have sexuality, we feel
5:58
things, our body is made to have sensation, right.
6:03
So I believe that because our dance, it's very close and we're
6:06
going to do undulations, we're going to do many things.
6:09
We're going to move our hips together.
6:12
Much easier to not go to that area of feeling other sensations
6:17
if we don't keep this friction, let's say like that, you know?
6:22
So one of of the request from the followers mostly is why the
6:28
guy sometimes doesn't put on the left.
6:31
Why? Why No actually, like I'm making
6:38
a joke, but we talked about this and it's like, oh, can you do a
6:41
workshop? Can you really explain that?
6:43
Oh, you need to use a proper things and then to put it there
6:47
on the side you know I. Mean, that's something that we
6:50
actually talk about in classes at Strict Zook or wherever I've
6:55
ever taught beginner classes. We talk about it and we say, hey
6:58
everybody, we're going to talk about something that you
7:02
probably didn't think it was going to happen in this class,
7:05
but here we are. And I prefer to be the one make
7:07
you uncomfortable then something happening in the future with you
7:12
and making things worse. A lot of places around the
7:15
world, men or people with they do wear boxers, right?
7:22
In Brazil, most of us, the norm is to have underwear that are
7:28
tight to the body and keep things in place.
7:31
But in many other areas of the world they wear like type of
7:35
shorts, not really something that holds things in place.
7:39
And then when they come to dancing, The thing is just free
7:42
flowing everywhere. It's not in place.
7:45
So we actually talk about it and we asked everyone that when you
7:50
come to dancing, dance classes, socials or something like that,
7:54
wear underwears that keep things in place and tuck to the left.
7:59
Like some people, they've never heard of it.
8:02
They've lived their whole life 30-40, fifty years and they're
8:06
like, well, I, I, I had no idea that this was something.
8:10
So I need to go and buy different underwear for dancing,
8:13
you know, like they do. Yeah, They remember in Bali in
8:16
the retreats 2 years ago or something that there was this
8:20
new participant there. And then he said, oh, I haven't
8:24
worn boxes or underwear in the last 10 years, so I have to wear
8:28
1 now. And then all the teachers said
8:31
yes. And he was like, he was a little
8:36
confused because he was someone who decided to do the retreat
8:41
last minute. He said that he purchased his
8:43
tickets at the airport. And then as soon as he realized
8:46
what the dance was, he asked the question, Do I need to wear
8:49
underwear? Because I haven't done it in 10
8:52
years, you know? So it is something that is good
8:56
to say to people for sure when they come in.
8:59
So if we go on the side of practicalities, I believe that
9:02
is kind of, oh, I'm going to practice swim and then I'm going
9:07
to have body sweet or, you know, this type of things because we
9:11
cannot take it in my opinion, for granted that people should
9:16
accept things, you know, So then it's like proper clothes, proper
9:22
ideas of high genes. Because if we want connection,
9:26
if we want to feel comfortable with each other, is the point of
9:30
like thinking about first, what is the way that I can make this
9:36
more comfortable for both of us? And ask sometimes ask for your
9:41
teacher, ask for your friends before a leader.
9:44
As for the female friends that you have, you know, or the
9:48
opposite, I think we can go in that way and not take things for
9:52
granted. When in doubt, search for.
9:55
That's the one thing that I, I say sometimes and I say that
9:59
also about the moment that you are there close to each other
10:04
and then you feel that some energy is going on.
10:08
You know, the vital energy, the sexual energy is something that
10:11
I think we don't talk much about it, but it happens during the
10:15
dance and doesn't mean that we need to go to do something
10:19
sexual with another person or doesn't mean that we are
10:23
attracted to each other, but can be there during the dance
10:26
because this energy is actually something very nice to feel
10:29
confident to access. That's your creativity, you
10:33
know, So, oh, I'm feeling some type of energy or I'm feeling
10:37
that my body is reacting. Doesn't mean that we take for
10:42
granted that it's happening intimacy there, that it's
10:46
related to have sexual interaction with this person.
10:50
So in my point of view, they first yes was for the deaths and
10:55
not for something else. And then afterwards, if you
10:59
still have these in mind, ask for talk, but don't take the
11:04
moment of the dance to go farther away, I think.
11:09
We had a very interesting point at first when you said or if
11:12
we're going to swim, we put swimsuits and I like that.
11:17
I never thought about like that that way because it makes sense.
11:20
For every activity we do, sports activity or physical activity,
11:25
we put a specific set of clothes for that activity.
11:28
So for example, if I'm going down to the gym right now, I'm
11:31
going to put shorts with a particular shirt.
11:33
I'm going to put my shoes on. And if I'm going out to dance, a
11:38
partner dance has close connection.
11:40
Shoes, shoes, shirt, put the attire to make that experience
11:45
more comfortable. And for the guys, that includes
11:49
a proper underwear, like Allison was saying, a title one put the
11:54
guy to the left to keep everything in place.
11:57
You know, I have stories about this topic both from personal
12:01
perspective but also from a teacher perspective.
12:03
I'll start sharing from the personal perspective on a
12:07
timeline. Yeah, chronologically, when I
12:10
started dancing, I was 14 years old, but I really started
12:15
dancing, like with contacts with a lot of, because when I started
12:19
dancing at 14, I was to do Brazilian ballroom classes in
12:24
the back of a neighborhood gym. So there was like 5 people and
12:28
two of the followers there were these ladies, you know, they're
12:31
all dancing with. The time that I was dancing with
12:36
more women was when I joined Jamalosha Studio, and I was 17
12:40
at that point. I was not prepared to the level
12:48
of contact, the level of, of, of like, you know, the smell and
12:53
the touch and the skin and the eyes and the face and
12:55
everything. And the only way that my young
12:59
body knew how to react to this was through, you know, so I
13:05
think me and my brother, my brother was 14.
13:09
I think we had a consonant for three months because we simply
13:17
didn't know what to do. But the interesting thing is we
13:20
were so conscious, so self aware that was happening, we would
13:25
keep the thing as far away from the followers possible.
13:29
So I don't think that in all these times anybody felt
13:33
anything because we were so shy and so desperate to not let them
13:37
feel anything, that the moment they start happening, we will
13:41
open the dance, especially turn, turn, turn.
13:43
Turn, Yeah. Because at that point we were
13:46
not very good at dancing. Brazilian Zook Bolero was a
13:50
little bit more open. So the thing was in Fajal, Fajal
13:53
classes. Oh my God.
13:55
So we open the dance and and do a bunch of stuff at the same
14:01
time. The confusion was, am I
14:04
attracted to this woman? Do I want to do anything?
14:07
Do I want to have anything? And many times the answer was
14:10
no. It was really just like the body
14:14
reacting to the level of stimulation of senses that it
14:19
hasn't felt before ever. You know, after a while, it
14:24
settles down and it more rarely happens.
14:28
But in the beginning happened a lot.
14:30
And that comes to my experience as a teacher because I have had
14:35
at least one guy that I remember very vividly coming to me
14:39
saying, please, can you talk about it?
14:41
Because I felt it. And I felt so ashamed that I
14:45
don't want to dance anymore. And The thing is, he was not
14:48
attracted by the person at all, but he felt it.
14:51
I mean, he was not attracting the sense he was attracted, but
14:54
he didn't have the intentions to do anything.
14:57
But he felt in his body and like, can you please talk about
15:01
it because of the shame? And I've never heard it this
15:05
way, the shame part. But he was conscious.
15:08
He was aware that, you know, she could feel very uncomfortable
15:13
about it. So he asked me and then we had a
15:15
conversation about that in class.
15:18
The whole thing I'm putting to the left and what happens if you
15:21
feel what happens as a guy. And then because was during the
15:23
leaders training and most the leaders in the room were men.
15:27
And the the end of that story was that he came to talk to me
15:31
afterwards and he realized that the whole meaning making that he
15:35
did about, you know, feeling something, having a while
15:40
dancing was related to the part of the sexuality, the part of
15:44
the sexual energy that refers to let's have sex.
15:48
And I told him, brah, your body is not used to this amount of
15:56
tensorial stimulation. You know, he's not used to it.
15:59
So the only way that he knows how to react is this way over
16:04
time. And that's the thing that I
16:05
learned. All this excitement that your
16:07
body feels is spread out. You know, The thing is for a
16:12
long time is focused, is concentrated, all it goes to one
16:15
place. Then you learn how to spread it
16:18
out. And the last story for now that
16:22
I want to share about this too, is sometimes the lack of
16:25
awareness that we have that it can be uncomfortable for someone
16:29
else, which I didn't know it was possible.
16:32
I thought that man, your thing is touching someone else.
16:35
You can feel it. It turns out some people cannot.
16:40
They are so focused on something else that they don't realize
16:45
that The thing is touching something.
16:47
And then I had this conversation that Allison was talking about.
16:49
I said, what is your underwear? Show me your underwear.
16:53
So I was like at midnight having a conversation with this guy and
16:57
he was sharing pictures of his underwear with me.
17:00
Sounds. Interesting and.
17:02
He was all boxers. It was all boxers.
17:05
And I said, like, shorts, right? Shorts.
17:08
Yeah. Like shorts loose on the thigh.
17:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shorts, they're loose on the
17:13
thigh. Then I sent him.
17:14
Now you look for sports underwear.
17:17
And then he sent me some links on Amazon.
17:19
This is something like this. And he said something like this,
17:21
you know, so unaware. He was unaware that his
17:25
underwear was not holding things in place.
17:27
He was unaware that he think was touching people, so he was just
17:31
going by learning the moves, wanting to learn the moves.
17:35
You know. So it's a layer of sensitivity
17:37
that for many we feel is true and it's for many of us it's
17:41
obvious indeed. And for some people it's not.
17:44
Some people it's just not. And then I know that sometimes
17:47
this is crazy too. How come it exists?
17:51
And, and that's the thing, as a dance teacher, that is
17:54
fascinating. You are introduced to the range
17:59
of possibilities in what comes to connection, sensation,
18:03
sensitivity, proprioception, how much people feel their own
18:08
bodies in space with someone else, you know.
18:12
So I think I try to cover here 3 very distinct moments when I
18:17
started dancing, what I felt, what I heard from students in
18:20
sense of how it feels, the shame and what I heard from students
18:25
and what comes to the sensitivity level I have.
18:28
Experienced this so many, many times myself.
18:32
The same journey that he had, you know, very young dancing for
18:36
Hall and man, it was wild. I was pretty much the same age,
18:41
1314. But then it has happened as an
18:44
adult as well. And to be honest, I didn't have
18:47
the awareness and knowledge that you have.
18:50
So at that point I was just like, what is happening here?
18:55
Did I see something? Did I feel something from the
18:58
person? Because I'm getting reactions in
19:00
my body. But it's kind of like you
19:03
realize the reaction is happening and then you think
19:06
about like, why? It.
19:08
Wasn't like I'm attracted. Then I got a reaction.
19:11
It was the reaction happened and then I had to like rollback and
19:15
go like why is this happening? You know the body.
19:20
Moves faster than the mind, Yeah, I mean like.
19:23
The blood was flowing and I didn't even know why.
19:26
And of course I would always move Wi-Fi, do so chingles and
19:31
do the things in Brazilian Zook and quickly just go change
19:36
partners and move away, move away, cool down, go and cool
19:39
down. But I think we talked a lot
19:42
about what we as leaders should do and some suggestions for the
19:48
leaders. But I would love to hear from
19:51
Paloma, like what are the things and the steps that followers
19:55
should feel very comfortable and confident to take in this case,
20:00
You know, so they don't feel once again.
20:02
Oh, I don't want to make them feel bad or I don't want to be
20:06
seen as somebody who doesn't like to dance clothes.
20:11
Or something like that. How do you make that clear that
20:14
this is just not right? But I'm not blaming you for
20:19
this. Or maybe if there is a situation
20:22
where you feel like, hey, you know what you're doing, stop
20:26
right now. How do we go about that?
20:29
Amazing question. I actually received that from a
20:31
follower that she said maybe it's the way that I'm dancing,
20:35
but I'm receiving some type of feedbacks in the end of the
20:39
dance. Like the person asked me to go
20:42
in private or and I don't understand what is going on.
20:46
And I was like, it wasn't in a private was after a group class.
20:51
And I'm like, since we don't have opportunity to dance with
20:55
each other for I can check a few things I would say for you to be
20:58
centered on your intention. If you had the intention to just
21:02
had a dance with the person, you totally can say, hey, maybe you
21:06
misunderstand. I don't want nothing else from
21:10
the dance. So thank you and bye.
21:12
And I also make the joke like, you know, it just turn off like
21:16
it was a moment. We leave that and you leave at
21:20
the dance floor. And then I make a joke like I
21:23
can be there like in my role, like with the music, with the
21:27
person, so much connection. In the end, I open a big smile
21:30
and say thank you, bye. But of course, it's so much more
21:36
layers than that because we talk so much about connection, about
21:42
sometimes surrender and followers are so much in that
21:47
role that we need to do right. We need to understand when we
21:51
need and many shoots right. One thing that I like to say for
21:56
the followers is you have the right to change your mind.
22:02
If something starts and it is good, but at some point it's not
22:06
anymore, you can say no. You can say no with your body.
22:11
And if the person doesn't understand, at some point you
22:14
can say, hey, thank you so much for the dance.
22:17
I'm no longer feel comfortable to continues.
22:20
And if the person asks why you'd like to talk about it out of the
22:24
dance floor, we can talk. But make sure that this
22:29
experience is built by two people, right?
22:32
But in the end of the day, you are the one first to be
22:36
responsible, to understand what makes you feel safe and doesn't
22:41
matter the way the other person takes your needs for longer.
22:45
I didn't had in my mind that I have the right to say to stop a
22:49
dance because we are so afraid to be rude, to be considered.
22:54
Oh, she overreacted. But you know what?
22:57
Like this can't traumatize my body so much, my emotional body,
23:02
my physical body in so many ways that I really need to be the
23:09
first person for myself to understand about my limits by
23:13
boundaries. And sometimes we don't.
23:16
Sometimes we don't understand. We get confused.
23:19
And in my point of view, when we get confused, we can say, no,
23:24
I'm confused. So I would take my moment to
23:27
figure out what's going on here instead of continuous because we
23:32
don't want to make someone uncomfortable.
23:35
But my body or my mind or my emotions already telling me that
23:40
someone is uncomfortable, it's me.
23:43
So I have the right to accept that something is no longer
23:48
pleasurable in this dance. And as a follower and as a
23:51
woman, I would say that this is a different layer.
23:55
It sometimes can be so, so deep in terms of we have this wound
23:59
to be afraid to be misunderstood, as I said before,
24:04
to overreact, you know, and then we are there inside of this very
24:09
vulnerable situation that sometimes the person is not
24:13
paying attention, is not aware of our body language and
24:17
continue something that is can be very uncomfortable or maybe
24:22
have a young baby. It has the contact, the person
24:25
is not aware or it is aware and understand the first yes, oh,
24:31
she's liking or the follower is liking.
24:34
So but something he is not liking anymore.
24:38
And then that's the point that I really say for the followers and
24:42
I say to myself, it is an exercise for us to practice,
24:48
normalize, to stop something, to say no, to quit.
24:53
And like, yeah, let me understand first, you know, but
24:58
don't continue if you feel uncomfortable, if you don't like
25:02
something, please don't continue.
25:04
Is not fair with you, is not fair with the person in front of
25:08
you, because sometimes the person in front of you doesn't
25:10
have the amount of awareness or conscience to understand what
25:15
you're not expressing. You know, true words sometimes
25:19
need to be true words. Oh no.
25:21
But I learn if I do this or do that and then works.
25:24
And then that's the sign. Sometimes the person and doesn't
25:28
understand the leader doesn't understand the leader is in his
25:31
mind doing the movement or thinking about like, oh, I
25:35
learned this on the hugging brace and feels comfortable, so
25:38
let me go. No, it's not for me, not right
25:42
now. Yeah, you.
25:44
Have the right to change your mind.
25:47
Kind of a mantra and we need to practice that.
25:51
It's not easier. It happens to me once and maybe
25:55
I will be again, very vulnerable here and then people going to
25:59
start to talk with me about that.
26:01
I'm going to get shy. So anyway, I would say maybe
26:05
three years ago, yeah. So I was already like dancing
26:09
for many years. I start to dance with the person
26:12
that he has some special degrees or like his therapies or
26:17
something. And the person is start to dance
26:20
with me and say something. So oh, relax.
26:23
Or put his hand on the lower part of my lower back to try to
26:28
manipulate my hips. And then I was like in my mind,
26:31
OK, we are dancing. And he says to me to relax and
26:35
he's trying to manipulate. So maybe I'm doing something
26:38
wrong. At some point it gets so
26:40
uncomfortable. But I in my mind, like he
26:44
understand more than me, you know, because he's a therapist
26:47
or he's something. But at the end of this dance, I
26:51
was asking myself why? Why did I continue?
26:55
Why I didn't say no? And that was my exercise because
27:00
doesn't matter who is in front of me, my body is the one that
27:04
it has the big answer always. I wasn't comfortable.
27:09
Then I had this internal conversation.
27:11
I also had a conversation with a friend and like, OK, I
27:16
understand that I still have this wound on me that want to do
27:20
the things right, that want to receive validation, all of those
27:24
things. But what I did, the big take
27:28
from these dances can be doesn't matter.
27:31
The person in front of me doesn't matter if there's a
27:33
teacher, if there's a therapist, I'm the one that needs to be in
27:38
charge to say no and to stop to protect the person that is more
27:43
important. That is me, you know, and I can
27:47
say it can be in a very nice way.
27:49
Like you know what, I don't feel comfortable anymore to
27:51
continues. Thank you so much for the dance
27:54
and by find a way, but don't be so much on your head like what
27:59
is the right way to say? Sometimes we are not ready to
28:03
have the right way to say at the moment, but at the moment, as is
28:09
the moment for you to take the action for don't make this
28:12
bigger, for don't go out of this dance with more trauma.
28:17
That's what I want to say, I think.
28:19
That's very important that you talked about the moment that
28:22
happened intentionally and especially with people with
28:27
certain power in the community because it could be a teacher,
28:31
it could be an organizer, it could be a DJ.
28:33
And a lot of the times that we've heard reports of this
28:37
where things did happen most likely intentionally.
28:42
Let's maybe not be 100%, but look, if somebody has a, has an
28:48
and they're dancing close holed with somebody and they're
28:51
staying there for a little while, I tend to imagine and to
28:56
understand that that was intentional, right?
28:58
Like as a man, I know when I have one, I'm not going to go
29:02
like, oh, sorry, I didn't realize.
29:04
No, sorry, I knew I had one. Could I know that they were able
29:08
to fuel it. I think that if we're in a very
29:11
close embrace, I think that's obvious that they can fuel it
29:15
and in those situations, brace. And you square up if it's not to
29:19
the left. Oh yeah.
29:20
Like if the bell is touching, the hips are touching, it's
29:23
happening, OK? The person is feeling it.
29:25
Yeah. And a lot of the times they
29:26
reports comes unfortunately from people who are dancing with
29:30
other people in power, like. Oh, it was the.
29:33
Teacher. So I didn't know what to do.
29:35
It was the organizer, it was the DJ or whoever, somebody in the
29:41
community. And that's that's.
29:44
Exercise, I think Palma's case was not even a teacher or DJ or
29:48
organizer was the fact that the guy had this knowledge of body.
29:53
He was a therapist, was a body worker or something.
29:56
Someone has had knowledge of the body, you know?
30:01
So the thing was like, oh, he knows more about bodies than I
30:06
do, so perhaps he knows what I think he's doing, you know, So
30:10
what's more in the sense of the knowledge that he held had some
30:14
weights into your decision making process of whether or not
30:17
to continue that this, but what? Alison says is it's very true.
30:21
Sometimes people feel even more afraid.
30:24
Followers feel even more afraid when the person in front the
30:28
leader has some power, has been a teacher, organizer or DJ.
30:31
That's a very important and one thing that come up to my mind
30:36
that it's for me very important. And then I talked with followers
30:39
too, is that sometimes and I hear from the leaders
30:42
perspective. Oh, but she continues.
30:45
Oh, it felt that she liked it and like she didn't said
30:48
anything. She didn't stop dollars woman
30:52
have unfortunately this body answer as we call the mode a
30:59
freeze mode. We can keep doing something, but
31:02
actually we are in the freeze mode to not know to stop
31:06
something or to react. It's terrible, you know?
31:10
So I'm sharing this specifically for leaders to understand that
31:15
if you are in a situation that you feel that to start some
31:18
intimacy in that dance, recheck, even open check and do the
31:24
closing brace again and try to recheck the answer of the
31:27
follower. But keep rechecking.
31:30
After all, like in the end of the day, we start this to the
31:34
yes for the dance. You know what I mean?
31:37
Then if you want something else and want to check with the
31:41
person if they want something else, go out of the dance floor.
31:45
In my opinion, of course, because yes, we can
31:48
misunderstood so many things, especially in the role of leader
31:53
and follower. Please don't take for granted
31:55
that this person wants something with you because your body
31:58
reacted because the follower doesn't go out of this dance.
32:01
You know, the follower can be sometimes on this freeze mode
32:05
and this actually is a trauma reaction and these things can
32:09
happen, unfortunately during the dance and then recheck as a
32:13
follower, recheck with yourself. I'm still liking this.
32:17
It's still comfortable for me. Let me check.
32:19
Oh, it is good. I don't know, out out for the
32:24
leader like oh, very nice. She's like, you know, we're
32:27
having a good time. Let me recheck.
32:30
I think it's also important to emphasize here that silence is
32:33
not consent. Just because they're not saying
32:37
something verbally, that doesn't mean they are there for it 100%.
32:43
Like they could be in freeze mode, they could be confused,
32:46
they could be scared of consequences.
32:50
So like if there was a moment that yes, OK, you feel like, you
32:55
know what, maybe there is something going on between us.
32:59
Say it like it has to be like asked, hey, are you comfortable
33:05
with this? Is this something you want to
33:07
continue? Should we get out of the dance
33:10
floor and go and talk about it? And I don't know, do whatever
33:14
you want to do. Like it needs to be verbal.
33:17
It can't just be assumed because there was silence and a little
33:22
smile, maybe because the person was oh, nobody.
33:26
Like they were smiling, Bro, that's not enough.
33:30
That's just not enough. He's funny because Brenda has a
33:33
very interesting story about this and was enough for her.
33:37
I think she mentioned this for her.
33:40
There's this guy, she fell there and then she stopped and like, I
33:44
think we haven't. I think I would love to continue
33:50
to dance with you. I just don't want to feel it in
33:52
the sort it out. I just said to the guy, I think
33:56
he got all flustered or something.
33:57
But then he started out and they kept dancing.
34:00
They kept dancing for a while and it was in a very light way,
34:04
in a very humorous way, comic way, because I think the mindset
34:10
has changed for her, you know, in the sense of the assumption
34:15
making right. If I'm having an or I'm feeling
34:20
the, I think we rush to make assumptions.
34:23
For example, like you're saying, I had the my partner felt it and
34:29
did nothing. So we can make an assumption.
34:32
Oh, it's OK. Yeah.
34:33
And the other side too can be. We had an was the assumption
34:38
he's a creep. Can be many things.
34:40
I want something, you know, And then I understand like, oh, he
34:44
wants to, but it's not. As you said, sometimes the
34:46
reaction doesn't mean that you have attraction for this person.
34:50
So I like this point because in the end of the day, it's so good
34:55
if we don't make assumptions. Exactly, guys.
34:59
But that's so difficult. I think this step of changing
35:04
the narrative and making like something light, you know, I
35:10
think we have enough. I love to dance with you, I love
35:13
to keep dancing, but can we not feel it, you know?
35:15
Can I not feel it? I think it's a different level
35:18
of awareness. I think it's a different level
35:21
of mindset. I think in the sense of not
35:24
demonizing someone and victimizing themselves because I
35:28
learned this thing. Really interesting that
35:30
everything in our life said. I think 3 characters, there is
35:35
the villain, the victim, and there's someone else and they
35:39
keep shifting the villain, the victim, and who was the third
35:42
one? The hero.
35:43
And they keep shifting around, They keep switching around.
35:46
So sometimes somebody who was the hero becomes the villain and
35:50
then the person who was the victim becomes the hero.
35:52
So all these things keep shifting around.
35:54
And I think when we are able to sort of dissolve all of this, I
36:01
mean, Buddha enlightenment, but it's such a difficult process, I
36:07
think. So my question for you is, what
36:11
would be your suggestion or recommendation of first steps to
36:16
a follower that feels something like this feels during the
36:20
dance? Because I think we now
36:22
progressed from just feeling the to feeling right.
36:26
I think we are now at a different level of the talk.
36:30
Yeah, we were more in the feeling.
36:32
Oh, I felt of my partner here Now we are.
36:35
Oh, I felt what you recommend is the first step for a follow or
36:39
the person who felt it to get acquainted with their own
36:41
boundaries to like realizing. I think the first thing you
36:45
mentioned was why I didn't stop, so the reflection would be the
36:49
first step. Is there anything else that you
36:51
would recommend I'll. Say that the steps that I do
36:54
with myself, in addition to what you said about The Apprentice
36:59
stories, like, yeah, when I heard the first time, I was
37:01
like, wow, that's amazing. But at these moments, I like to
37:05
remember myself even I'm nodding that point to just to stop and
37:10
ask in a very friendly way. Hey, no, we haven't.
37:14
If it's not, it's just can be like, thank you so much.
37:17
I don't want to continue bye and go anyway.
37:21
I want to have this right. But the other thing about the
37:25
steps that I do is if I remember well, I never remember to like
37:30
be close to someone and right away have you know, so and then
37:35
things happens before. So it can be stay longer and a
37:40
closing brace stay longer in a closing brace with movement on
37:45
the hips, you know, so and then I'm checking if this is
37:49
comfortable for me. If this closeness, if the amount
37:53
of pressure I'm like on my body and on my sensations.
37:57
So for example, I would say straight for the follower is
38:01
this sometimes our mindset, It's so much outside I'm doing right.
38:07
Oh, I'm doing this correct. You know, so much they're out
38:11
that we are not even paying attention if we like what's
38:15
going on. And then nowadays I'm more in
38:18
turn with I'm liking that is going well, nice.
38:23
So I would say the first check in is I'm liking this situation.
38:28
I'm liking these movements. I'm like these so I'm check with
38:34
myself so it's not like. I felt something like no, no,
38:37
no, yes, you felt something and then you're like, okay, let me
38:40
see if I'm into this, okay, Yeah.
38:43
Because I would say I will be honest again that I had a dance
38:47
with someone that at some point it has an that I don't want
38:52
nothing with this person. We did had nothing.
38:55
If it will be very, very, very honest.
38:57
The person at the end wants to talk with me and check if
39:01
something can happen and say like, huh, no, but you don't
39:05
like to talk more like, you know, I'm going to keep dancing.
39:08
Bye. Thank you so much.
39:10
Maybe he was super confused, you know.
39:12
But you know what? It was not for me, but took me
39:16
years to arrive in that place that in my mind, yes, we had a
39:21
good dance and we have this amount of intimacy, but it means
39:25
nothing to me. I was single, so I was like, OK,
39:31
doesn't matter what this person has in his mind right now, it
39:35
doesn't really affect me, doesn't really bothers me,
39:38
doesn't make sense. So yeah, nowadays I can say that
39:42
right away. I don't get like, you know,
39:46
super scared or what is the word that you said?
39:49
Demonize. Demonize.
39:52
Demonize. Yeah, that's the first step.
39:54
You check in. Am I going with it or not?
39:56
Yeah, let's see second and then I.
39:59
Think the second is the moment that I understand if I don't
40:04
like it, how I'm going to end this.
40:08
That is the I would say the second step.
40:11
If I don't like it is in the middle of the song.
40:14
I don't want to like, yes, I'm going to stop.
40:17
You know, I will like Hey, thank you for this dance.
40:21
I'm no longer into it to continues, but thank you so
40:25
much. And it I know that it's hard,
40:28
but it's an awesome exercise to say no without explanation.
40:33
Give yourself the opportunity to like, yes, I don't want, I don't
40:39
anymore so bye. And if the person wants to talk,
40:42
check with yourself if you want to talk, if you feel comfortable
40:47
to talk about this. Because I'm saying these in the
40:52
perspective of followers that sometimes are very shy, very
40:56
introverted people that start to dance, to like to go through
41:02
some traumas and to have a better understandment of their
41:06
bodies. But they are not there yet you
41:10
know, and in my point of view, we receive sometimes so much
41:15
shoots. You should do that you should do
41:18
this and for me this sometimes just makes bigger amplify these
41:24
wounded followers have that you should be nice.
41:28
You should you know when I'm saying this is not about so you
41:33
can be rude. No, because has other person the
41:35
other side that we don't know about it.
41:38
And then in my point is like be nice first with the idea of I
41:44
don't want these anymore and I'm going to say in a very nice way
41:48
and I'm going out if I also don't feel comfortable to talk
41:52
to continue this conversation or give an explanation for this
41:55
person. I would say I don't feel
41:57
comfortable right now to talk with you.
41:59
I'm going to check if we'll be OK later.
42:02
That's the second step if I don't want to continue the
42:05
dance, but these steps are very important if I want to continue
42:10
the death. Awesome.
42:12
So first I check if I like all the aspects in my mind.
42:16
I'm OK, yes and my emotions I'm OK.
42:19
I'm feeling safe in my body, physical body.
42:22
OK, so I'm going to good to go, I'm good to go.
42:26
We continue at some point something change and that's the
42:30
part you know, because sometimes we attach it off like but we are
42:35
go so far. I'm really dancing might be like
42:37
5 half an hour with this person and it happens with me once that
42:42
I would like I'm not sure and then I continue at some points
42:46
like should have stopped. The moment that I get there, I'm
42:49
not sure I want to continue, you know, So it's also important to
42:56
exercise and have the right to change my mind and stop that.
43:00
And even though you continue, you end the dance and the person
43:05
think like, oh, maybe she wants something else.
43:08
No, I don't. No, I.
43:09
Don't. Yeah, do.
43:11
You like to talk? No.
43:12
Can you give me your phone? No.
43:15
Why? You want my phone, you know, or
43:18
can I add you? I don't know.
43:20
You want to be my friend. So all of those things I'm
43:23
saying from the point that it's my personal experience, so each
43:28
person going to have different reactions.
43:31
And I think for followers that are hearing me, my point is
43:35
whatever reaction that you have your right to have, whatever
43:39
emotion that comes are welcome to come.
43:42
You were the best person, Not me, not D, not Alison.
43:46
No one to tell you what is the best for you.
43:50
That is it, that is it. You said it all, you said it
43:54
well, and I'm so thankful to have you here once again for
43:59
another episode where we can dive into these topics, some
44:04
lighter, some deeper, some more controversial.
44:08
But it's so wonderful to have your experience and your
44:12
knowledge here in this podcast, and hopefully a lot of people
44:17
who are listening will take this and practice it in their lives.
44:22
Yeah. I think we need to listen to you
44:24
speak. I think we need to have another
44:26
guest. We need to post something about
44:29
who is an anthropologist that can come to talk to us.
44:34
Yeah. It will be amazing because we.
44:36
Have these environments of partner dancing for all of us in
44:40
a zoo dangle all these things natural people come together
44:43
they don't know each other and if you all these things,
44:46
including things that they thought they could only feel
44:51
with their romantic partners. They feel all the sensations and
44:55
then they get really confused. Am I allowed to feel this?
44:57
Am I allowed to do Oh my God, because it's what he said.
45:02
You do your first check my mind. Rationally, I'm OK with it.
45:06
Emotionally, I'm also OK with it.
45:08
My physical body is also OK with it.
45:11
Feeling the excitement of somebody else.
45:14
And then you go through this process of like developing this
45:17
relationship with all the signals that for you meant
45:23
something else for such a long time.
45:25
And you go and you move around and sometimes even more intense
45:28
because you're moving your body, you're doing body roles and
45:30
you're doing moving your spine and moving your hips.
45:33
And then the dance finishes and the person says, oh, do you want
45:36
to keep talking and say no, no thank.
45:39
You thank you so. Much it's amazing.
45:42
You just leave the chat. It doesn't leave the chat.
45:44
I think from a human perspective, that's but that's
45:47
crazy in a very interesting way because we put ourselves in a
45:51
place that this can happen. You know, I really liked the
45:55
chat that you did to see if you are OK with it and also really
45:59
like the fact that you also mentioned that you did the
46:02
check, it was OK, the things progressed and then did the
46:05
recheck. And then one of the parts said,
46:08
oh, too much. And then you can.
46:10
And the thing which will perhaps leave the person hanging in
46:14
their mind like what just happened, you know, we were in
46:16
this thing. So the matter of self-awareness
46:22
I think is what we're talking about, like developing
46:25
self-awareness, which comes back to what one of my grid masters
46:29
said that she says. And that's the one with more
46:33
awareness, you know, so who is the one who needs to make these
46:38
calls? I think the person with more
46:40
awareness and developing that awareness is the part.
46:46
And I think the difficult part is developing this
46:48
self-awareness to know when your boundaries are being crossed
46:53
because sometimes we don't realize that they are being
46:55
crossed. We stay in a thing because we
46:57
are not sure. We don't know what's going on
47:00
and we stick to it. And then later on we like, oh,
47:03
this was not what I wanted. And that's so difficult too.
47:07
So let's bring an anthropologist.
47:09
That's if there's anthropologist listening.
47:11
Send us a message I. Love that what you said is so
47:16
important is something that I have been and I'm still like
47:19
learning in this because I wasn't aware of so many
47:23
boundaries or to do these types of checking, rechecking because
47:28
I was so much more in this mode of what are the things that I
47:32
need to do. This is right, this is wrong.
47:34
You know, the self-awareness is something that sometimes is not
47:39
so much in the top of the priorities because actually we
47:43
are so much in the go go mode of what we need to do outside, how
47:49
I need that, how I follow that so much out and not so much
47:53
internal. I love that too.
47:55
Yeah. All right.
47:56
My guys, so thank you, thank you for this talk.
47:59
Thank you for approaching this topic in such an open minded but
48:04
also very objective and honest and vulnerable way.
48:09
I think everybody listening and watching will really, really
48:13
appreciate. Thank you.
48:16
Thank. Everybody thank.
48:18
I want to say just that I appreciate so much what you guys
48:21
do. Like I don't know if we'll be my
48:24
last one, but I'm going to come back to Brazil.
48:27
So, but I really, really want to give appreciation because I
48:31
think that's very important. All the topics that you guys
48:34
bring there's so much in tune with the idea that I want for
48:39
the whole community for we open a space to talk more about
48:44
whatever topics that we're going to affect us.
48:47
I think help us to have a more healthy community.
48:51
You know, so I appreciate it so much.
48:53
Thank you guys for receiving me. I.
48:55
Mean that's the goal. We are Zook nerds, but also the
48:59
Zook ecosystem involves everything from technical to
49:04
human to spiritual to emotional. So we do our best to share the
49:10
experiences that we have here. And when we are very lucky to
49:14
have guests like you, we share even more.
49:17
Because then you know 3 minds are better than just two.
49:21
And hopefully this will not be the last one.
49:23
Because you don't have to be in the same room to come back,
49:27
right? You can just join from somewhere
49:29
else in the world as long as the time zones allow.
49:32
We would love to have you back as many times as you can.
49:37
And with that, thank you all for listening and joining us.
49:41
Please don't forget to follow, subscribe, like, share, do all
49:45
the things to help us grow and reach out more people and
49:49
hopefully have a better community in the near future.
49:53
So thank you. Thank you, business, Business,
49:57
Abrasos and Ciao everybody. Bye people.