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SHOCKING DETAILS: Millionaire pedophile Jeff Epstein's bloody death cell · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:07
Speaker 1: Millionaire pedophile jeff Epstein. You may think for a moment
0:11
Speaker 1: it's just some pervy millionaire up in New York City jailhouse.
0:16
Speaker 1: That's not the end of the story. What matters is
0:19
Speaker 1: what really happened. If this is a fault in Ourn't
0:23
Speaker 1: justice system, if anything surreptitious, the public and law enforcement
0:27
Speaker 1: needs to note there are too many circumstantial facts, too
0:31
Speaker 1: many coinkie inks coincidences surrounding Epstein's death, crime stories with
0:43
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, the theories that are out there. One of
0:47
Speaker 1: them is that it was another inmate who may have
0:49
Speaker 1: killed Jeffrey Epstein. Come on, you don't believe that he
0:53
Speaker 1: was found hanging in his cell. He had tried to
0:56
Speaker 1: commit suicide before that. He was a very wealthy man
0:59
Speaker 1: who was looking at a lifetime in prison. You know,
1:03
Speaker 1: sometimes the cigars gets a cigar. So Epstein's taken off
1:06
Speaker 1: suicide watch the day before he kills himself. His roommate
1:11
Speaker 1: is removed from the cell, the cameras on his tear
1:15
Speaker 1: are not working, the guards fell asleep. It seems almost
1:19
Speaker 1: impossible to think all of those things could happen in
1:23
Speaker 1: that way. It does, and that's what makes this so shocking.
1:26
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a failure on multiple levels. Do
1:29
Speaker 1: you think there's any way that Jeffrey Epstein could have
1:31
Speaker 1: been murdered? Absolutely, unequivocally not. Okay, So what is the
1:36
Speaker 1: truth If Epstein, the millionaire perv pedophile, was murdered, who, what, where? Why? When?
1:45
Speaker 1: If he committed suicide, same questions. I mean, see, Grace,
1:49
Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us,
1:51
Speaker 1: with me a man, We've all wanted to talk to.
1:54
Speaker 1: Epstein's criminal defense lawyer, Mark Furnish, also with me, Emily Saul,
2:01
Speaker 1: New York Post journalist Bruce Johnson, owner ESP Investigations, Master
2:06
Speaker 1: Sergeant Region one Crimes in Commander, Chicago Metro. Well, that
2:10
Speaker 1: says it all. There's no lack of business there. Justice
2:13
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan right now, forensic expert, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State
2:16
Speaker 1: University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and doctor
2:21
Speaker 1: Kendall Crown's deputy medical examiner out of Travis County. That's Austin. First,
2:28
Speaker 1: before we kick it off, I want you to hear this.
2:30
Speaker 1: The key reason doctor Bonden thinks Jeffrey Epstein's death might
2:34
Speaker 1: be a homicide is because of the unusual fractures he
2:38
Speaker 1: saw in Epstein's neck. There were fractures of the left,
2:42
Speaker 1: the right thyroid cartilage, and the left hyoid bone. This
2:48
Speaker 1: is an autopsy photo of Epstein's broken hyoid bone, a
2:52
Speaker 1: U shaped bone that sits under the jaw. The part
2:55
Speaker 1: of the tongue attaches to the thyroid cartilage sits at
2:58
Speaker 1: the front of the neck. I have never seen three
3:02
Speaker 1: fractures like this in a suicidal hanging. Sometimes there is
3:06
Speaker 1: a fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of
3:09
Speaker 1: the thyroid cartilage, not three, very unusual to have two
3:14
Speaker 1: and not three. And going over over thousand jail hangings
3:19
Speaker 1: suicides in the New York City State prisons of the
3:22
Speaker 1: pist forty fifty years, no one had three fractures. You
3:26
Speaker 1: were hearing our friends over at CBS sixty minutes, Sharon Alfonse,
3:31
Speaker 1: Mark Furnish, Jeffrey Epstein, criminal defense lawyer. You know, I
3:35
Speaker 1: really don't know where to start with you. Mark. First
3:38
Speaker 1: of all, it's not about you, it's about him. I mean,
3:41
Speaker 1: it's very hard for me not to just lay into
3:43
Speaker 1: you because I do believe Epstein was This is certainly
3:46
Speaker 1: putting perfume on the pig having sex with underaged girls.
3:49
Speaker 1: That's called trime molestation. But what I'm focusing on right
3:53
Speaker 1: now is the possibility that he was murdered behind bars.
4:00
Speaker 1: What are your observations, Well, like I said yesterday, nothing
4:04
Speaker 1: about mister Epstein's prosecution or his death in federal custody
4:08
Speaker 1: surprises me or could surprise me at this point. And
4:14
Speaker 1: I don't think that we're ever going to learn what
4:16
Speaker 1: really happened in there because I don't think that there's
4:18
Speaker 1: any real incentive to find out. And I think that wooa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
4:23
Speaker 1: wait a, man it furnish. I mean, hold on, you
4:26
Speaker 1: just said so many important things in those two couple
4:29
Speaker 1: of sentences. Again, I'm like drinking out of the fire
4:32
Speaker 1: hydrants too much at once. Why do you believe there
4:35
Speaker 1: is no incentive, because I've got a lot of incentive
4:37
Speaker 1: to find out the truth. Oh, I don't mean media.
4:40
Speaker 1: I mean on the part of institutional incentives within our government.
4:44
Speaker 1: Please not call me media. Please do not call me media.
4:47
Speaker 1: That makes me feel really bad about my whole career
4:49
Speaker 1: or trying to seek injustice. Well, let's say let's say
4:52
Speaker 1: independent outsiders better phrasiology thank you, But I don't think
4:58
Speaker 1: that there's much into intuitional incentives to dig into this
5:02
Speaker 1: understandably sell from a political perspective. Why we're not all
5:07
Speaker 1: on the inside, we're on the outside looking in. Why
5:09
Speaker 1: do you say no incentive to find the truth. Because
5:12
Speaker 1: when you have two low hanging fruit, easy suspects to
5:18
Speaker 1: make a seemingly easy case against, it's much easier to
5:22
Speaker 1: take the path of least resistance, and getting a couple
5:25
Speaker 1: of proverbial or literal Patsy's is much easier than digging
5:29
Speaker 1: in and opening up the can of worms and letting
5:33
Speaker 1: prying lives like your own. I really have a good
5:36
Speaker 1: look at what went on there, and certainly the suspicious
5:38
Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding this are just an overwhelming It's just an
5:43
Speaker 1: overwhelming chain of apparent systemic failures. And at some point
5:47
Speaker 1: you have to say, there's so much smoke here. Can
5:51
Speaker 1: this all be just chalked up to coincidence? And that's
5:54
Speaker 1: strange credulity and common sense? Right, Okay, I'm trying to
5:57
Speaker 1: soak in everything you say, um, and I'm in the
6:01
Speaker 1: very very difficult position here of agreeing with a defense
6:04
Speaker 1: attorney not only a defense attorney for the defense attorney
6:08
Speaker 1: for I can't say this enough, millionaire pedophile Jeff Epstein,
6:12
Speaker 1: hold on Mark Furnish, Emily Saul, I gotta get to Emily, right, Yeah,
6:19
Speaker 1: and it's let's just say you got to have a trial,
6:22
Speaker 1: and it's all the two and it's all the two
6:26
Speaker 1: guards fault. You know, let's it's a little too simplest
6:29
Speaker 1: that you gotta have a trial again. I'm going to
6:32
Speaker 1: use your own I know, I know what you're talking about.
6:35
Speaker 1: I'm gonna use your own rationale on you. There's so
6:39
Speaker 1: much smoke I can't see in the room. There's too
6:43
Speaker 1: many alleged victims of Epstein's what them They're all lying
6:48
Speaker 1: and he and Gilan are the only ones telling the truth.
6:51
Speaker 1: I don't believe that, just as I believe that there's two.
6:54
Speaker 1: There are too many circumstantial facts, too many Coinkie thinks
6:58
Speaker 1: coincidences surround Epstein's death. I mean, it's just overwhelming to
7:03
Speaker 1: Emily Saul, New York Post journalist Emily what Well, this
7:08
Speaker 1: is a loaded question? What jumps out at you? Yes,
7:11
Speaker 1: there is a loaded question. Um. I mean, the MCC
7:14
Speaker 1: has never been known as a superb facility. Uh, sort
7:18
Speaker 1: of stepping back from from Jeffrey Epstein, you for for
7:22
Speaker 1: years now, I mean since it opened in nineteen seventy
7:25
Speaker 1: five when it was originally supposed to be you know,
7:27
Speaker 1: it's a new human humanitarian free trial facility. UM. I
7:32
Speaker 1: mean people have inmates have been filing lawsuits and letters
7:37
Speaker 1: for years talking about just how the systemic issues inside
7:42
Speaker 1: the facility, be it mold, be it staffing. Um. It's
7:47
Speaker 1: it is interesting. Emily. Can I ask you a question?
7:51
Speaker 1: What is your expertise? I mean, yeah, I know you're
7:53
Speaker 1: an expert because you're at the Post, But what do
7:57
Speaker 1: you write about the most? What do I write about
7:59
Speaker 1: the most? So I covered the Southern District of New
8:01
Speaker 1: York for the Post and in that capacity, the Manhattan
8:06
Speaker 1: Federal Court for the Post. Okay, well, Emily, then you
8:09
Speaker 1: are no stranger to a jailhouse. And I've just got
8:12
Speaker 1: to tell you, I have never seen an inmate that
8:15
Speaker 1: did not complain bitterly about the jail conditions. Ever. Ever,
8:20
Speaker 1: I've never, ever once. Since Let's see, when did I
8:23
Speaker 1: start in the business. I got out of law school
8:25
Speaker 1: in eighty four. I started prosecuting in eighty seven. Since
8:30
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven. I've never heard one mmate go this
8:34
Speaker 1: place is awesome, the food's great. I love my roomy.
8:38
Speaker 1: That never happens Emily, So I'm not really convinced by
8:42
Speaker 1: everybody whining about you also keep okay, furnish, You're not
8:47
Speaker 1: overpowering anybody in the courtroom. Let Emily speak. Go ahead,
8:50
Speaker 1: go ahead, go ahead. We'll just say you have I
8:53
Speaker 1: will just say you have outside you have you have
8:56
Speaker 1: outside reports, you have outside investigations, you have outside monitors,
8:59
Speaker 1: you have international who's come in and who's basically said,
9:03
Speaker 1: there are major systemic issues at this facility. That just
9:07
Speaker 1: pain using that as the backdrop, that's for me, that's
9:11
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that it is possible to believe
9:13
Speaker 1: that a number of systemic failures and human error led
9:17
Speaker 1: to what happened. There doesn't excuse what happened. It just
9:20
Speaker 1: for me sort of informs the idea that there is
9:24
Speaker 1: a possibility that this was the result of a series
9:29
Speaker 1: of human errors. This was not a well run facility.
9:32
Speaker 1: This is a facility that is supposed to hold a
9:34
Speaker 1: little less than four hundred people and insteads hold seven hundred.
9:37
Speaker 1: This is a facility where you have people who are
9:40
Speaker 1: worked to the bone, who are working overtime. Michael Thomas,
9:44
Speaker 1: one of the people who was charged with falsifying timesheets,
9:47
Speaker 1: isn't even a corrections officer. He works there in another
9:50
Speaker 1: capacity and he's filling in because there are not enough
9:53
Speaker 1: corrections officers to staff the facility. Emily, Emily, I hear you.
9:58
Speaker 1: I hear you, and I agree with you. However, those
10:03
Speaker 1: circumstances about overcrowding, I mean, there's a federal order on
10:09
Speaker 1: many of the jail in prison facilities in our jurisdiction
10:13
Speaker 1: about overcrowding, overcrowding and public servants being worked like mules.
10:20
Speaker 1: I remember being there myself and having to work two
10:24
Speaker 1: night jobs to just make a house and a car payment,
10:27
Speaker 1: and just working like a dog as a public servant.
10:31
Speaker 1: I get it, but there still is a problem. There's
10:35
Speaker 1: still a problem. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. There was
10:52
Speaker 1: a note in Jeffrey Epstein's cell. He wrote, the one
10:55
Speaker 1: guard kept me in a lock shower stall for one hour.
10:59
Speaker 1: Noel guard sent me burnt food, giant bugs crawling over
11:03
Speaker 1: my hands. Now fun. Doctor Michael Bonden says, if anyone
11:08
Speaker 1: thought Jeffrey Epstein was suicidal. They wouldn't have let him
11:11
Speaker 1: have a ballpoint pen that could be used to harm
11:14
Speaker 1: himself or someone else. The other thing we just noticed
11:17
Speaker 1: looking at the photos, it appears he had some kind
11:19
Speaker 1: of sleep aptia machine. You can see a long electrical cordy. Yes,
11:25
Speaker 1: there were other wires and chords present that it would
11:29
Speaker 1: have been easy to use to hang oneself. Within a
11:33
Speaker 1: few minutes, you're hearing our friends at sixteen minutes describing
11:36
Speaker 1: what they observed in Epstein's cell with me Mark Fernus, Jeffrey,
11:41
Speaker 1: Epstein's criminal defense lawyer, Emily Saw New York Post doctor
11:45
Speaker 1: Kendall Crown's Austin Joe Scott Morgan forensics expert, and Bruce
11:50
Speaker 1: Johnson owner i SP investigations to Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott,
11:56
Speaker 1: so many issues stand out for you. Just attack the
12:00
Speaker 1: first two of them, he told me about. Yeah, sure, Nancy, Uh,
12:03
Speaker 1: you know, I'm looking. I'm looking over you know these
12:07
Speaker 1: images as I guess many of us have, you know,
12:10
Speaker 1: over the past few weeks, and you know, as all
12:12
Speaker 1: of this has kind of come down and and I'm
12:15
Speaker 1: amazed at you know, when you when you first take
12:18
Speaker 1: a look at this, how deep these furrows are in
12:22
Speaker 1: Epstein's neck. The furrows are the narrow little areas where
12:27
Speaker 1: you commonly see a ligature has been applied to a
12:31
Speaker 1: specific area that has led to a strangulation or hanging.
12:36
Speaker 1: In this this particular case, they're saying that it's a
12:39
Speaker 1: ligature strangulation. This is a very narrow area. And what's
12:43
Speaker 1: being applied or what's being implied here is that this
12:47
Speaker 1: piece of broadcloth that was utilized, I guess he ripped
12:50
Speaker 1: it up from a sheet or whatever the case might
12:52
Speaker 1: be in fashion and news, it doesn't have the same
12:55
Speaker 1: consistency as say an electrical cord or piece of rope
13:01
Speaker 1: that could generate that kind of furrow. So for me,
13:04
Speaker 1: you know, as you know, as a former Emmy investigator
13:07
Speaker 1: or corner investigator in New Orleans, I look at this,
13:10
Speaker 1: having worked a lot of jailhouse desks, I look at
13:13
Speaker 1: this and it really makes me scratch my head. And
13:15
Speaker 1: of course we're coming to this after he has already
13:18
Speaker 1: been removed from the cell, he's already been taken to
13:21
Speaker 1: the hospital. So we're missing a lot of information here,
13:25
Speaker 1: and that makes it particularly difficult. Stop right there. Let's
13:29
Speaker 1: be specific. Doctor Kendall Crowns, Depumedical Examiner, Travis County, Austin.
13:33
Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, I'm gonna just put it in regular people
13:38
Speaker 1: taught from what Joe Scott Morgan just said. The furrow,
13:41
Speaker 1: the hanging I'm just gonna do hanging in air quoties
13:45
Speaker 1: marks on Epstein's neck seem to have come from something
13:49
Speaker 1: other than a wide piece of material. Now granted, when
13:53
Speaker 1: you hang somebody with a wide piece of material, the
13:58
Speaker 1: material will scrunch up, it won't remain widely applied on
14:03
Speaker 1: the net. But still, doctor Crowns, what Morgan is saying,
14:08
Speaker 1: the deep, deep furrows in the neck appear to be
14:12
Speaker 1: made more likely with a rope or a wire. What
14:15
Speaker 1: do you say, Crowns. I think with a sheet you
14:18
Speaker 1: can actually twist it up, which I've seen in other
14:22
Speaker 1: hangings with sheets, and it can become quite tight the
14:25
Speaker 1: more you twist it, so it can leave a fairly
14:28
Speaker 1: deep furrow, especially if the individual is suspended or there
14:32
Speaker 1: a lot of their weight is put on them. So
14:35
Speaker 1: you can match up the furrow itself with the material,
14:38
Speaker 1: and you can find findings in the furrow that will
14:41
Speaker 1: match the material as well. I'm sure the medical examiners
14:45
Speaker 1: photographed it that way. Well wait a minute, what do
14:47
Speaker 1: you mean. Are you saying that you believe there will
14:49
Speaker 1: be sheet particles in the furrow that would match up
14:52
Speaker 1: to the news the homemade news. Not necessarily the particles,
14:55
Speaker 1: but the actual pattern of the sheet. If you'll see
14:57
Speaker 1: the webbing of the sheet or the weaving pattern in
15:00
Speaker 1: the sheet, you can see in the furrow itself. Hold
15:02
Speaker 1: on just a moment to mark furnish. The piece of
15:06
Speaker 1: material that we've been told created homemade noose did not
15:10
Speaker 1: have blood on it. According to Michael Boden, who is
15:13
Speaker 1: a very well known medical examiner a friend of mine.
15:17
Speaker 1: Of course I rarely agree with him, but on this
15:20
Speaker 1: I find that very very significant. Is that true? Well,
15:24
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't have access to that information either.
15:27
Speaker 1: All I can say is that I have immense respect
15:29
Speaker 1: for doctor Boden and the folks on this panel who
15:34
Speaker 1: have better expertise in that area than I do. Obviously
15:38
Speaker 1: are very well informed and know what they're talking about,
15:42
Speaker 1: and are multiple theories, and a good expert can spin
15:45
Speaker 1: out whatever they want out of the same information. So
15:49
Speaker 1: I'll defer to what the doctors say for now, based
15:53
Speaker 1: on the limited information that's been publicly release. Take a
15:55
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at sixty minutes. Also, something that's
15:57
Speaker 1: striking about the photos. The womb is down here. You'd
16:01
Speaker 1: think if somebody hung themselves, the wound would be maybe
16:05
Speaker 1: up here. Yes, most hangings, especially free hangings, the ligature
16:10
Speaker 1: slides up to beneath the jawbone, the mandible. Here it's
16:14
Speaker 1: in the middle of the neck. Doctor Boden says a
16:17
Speaker 1: wound straight across the neck is more common when a
16:20
Speaker 1: victim is strangled by a wire cord. He and Epstein's
16:24
Speaker 1: brother Mark met with a government and asked to see
16:26
Speaker 1: any forensic testing and any video, but they say they
16:30
Speaker 1: were told the ongoing criminal case against the two guards
16:33
Speaker 1: prevents the Justice Department from releasing any information, So the
16:38
Speaker 1: criminal charges are now basically a firewall for the family
16:41
Speaker 1: to get any information about it from the Justice Department.
16:43
Speaker 1: The charges have also silenced the guards. The attorney for Guard,
16:48
Speaker 1: Michael Thomas, says, five months after Epstein's death, Thomas has
16:52
Speaker 1: still not spoken to investigators or revealed how he alone
16:57
Speaker 1: found Epstein's body. Now that all so, it's curious to
17:00
Speaker 1: Emily Saul New York Post way in Emily. It's fascinating
17:04
Speaker 1: that Thomas has not been questioned, especially because he was
17:09
Speaker 1: one of the He was one of the MCC staffers
17:12
Speaker 1: who responded to Epstein's first suicide attempt in July of
17:17
Speaker 1: two nineteen. So the idea that he would not have
17:21
Speaker 1: been questioned, even with his lawyer of prison, to me,
17:24
Speaker 1: it is just as unfathomable. You'd think that would be
17:26
Speaker 1: one of the very first things that had happened before
17:31
Speaker 1: we even began to see the federal investigation into Thomas
17:34
Speaker 1: and into Toba Noel. It just doesn't make sense to
17:38
Speaker 1: me as an a lay person. Bruce Johnson, owner of
17:42
Speaker 1: ESP Investigations, the Master's Sergeant, Region one Crimes inc. Commander
17:45
Speaker 1: Chicago Metro Bruce Johnson, I mean, this is no way
17:49
Speaker 1: to conduct an investigation. And I say that not as
17:55
Speaker 1: you know, a media person, but having conducted literally thousands
17:59
Speaker 1: of investigations over the course of many years as both
18:04
Speaker 1: a state felony prosecutor and a fed the fact that
18:08
Speaker 1: this guy has not been questioned, Its just that's where
18:11
Speaker 1: you start. They are the ones that find the body,
18:15
Speaker 1: they are the ones that allow the body to be moved.
18:17
Speaker 1: That was a crime scene. That was a huge departure
18:20
Speaker 1: in protocol. He was already dead. That's either a homicide
18:24
Speaker 1: or a suicide. There were no photos of the location
18:26
Speaker 1: of his body. The scene was disturbed, what a mess.
18:29
Speaker 1: And the guy hasn't even been in the question. Bruce
18:33
Speaker 1: the first officer at the scene. This is the officer
18:36
Speaker 1: that was alone and cut him down or did whatever
18:40
Speaker 1: he did. So that is going to be very important
18:42
Speaker 1: to talk to this guy to see the position of
18:44
Speaker 1: the body. That's going to help you with the ligature
18:47
Speaker 1: mark on the neck, which is going to be at
18:50
Speaker 1: the autopsy, and then is also going to lead to
18:52
Speaker 1: information about the crime scene. So we all want to know.
18:55
Speaker 1: You could have a hanging by a person on his
18:58
Speaker 1: knees leaning forward. That's going to give us information as
19:02
Speaker 1: to where the ligature mark should be. We're looking at
19:05
Speaker 1: the ligature. Market looks like it's straight across. If it's
19:07
Speaker 1: a hanging from the thirty six inches of orange that's
19:11
Speaker 1: on the bed. If it's that high, then you should
19:17
Speaker 1: have a U shape. If he's leaning forward in parallel
19:21
Speaker 1: with the mattress. If he's that low, then you may
19:24
Speaker 1: have it coming across the neck. But that's very important
19:29
Speaker 1: information to get from the officer at the scene and
19:32
Speaker 1: for him not to be investigated yet as a supervisor
19:36
Speaker 1: on that day, I would ask him. I would say,
19:39
Speaker 1: I need to know everything you did from beginning to
19:41
Speaker 1: and before you go into a an officer interview for
19:49
Speaker 1: protocol with him to have an attorney in FLP or whatever.
19:52
Speaker 1: As a supervisor, I could ask him, what were you doing,
19:55
Speaker 1: what did you do you know during this time period
19:59
Speaker 1: and get that chain going, and for him not to
20:01
Speaker 1: speak to anybody within five months is just ridiculous. Crime
20:19
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. The New York City Medical Examiner's
20:24
Speaker 1: Office disputes Boden's theory, saying the fractures of the hyoid
20:28
Speaker 1: bone and cartilage can be seen in suicides and homicides,
20:32
Speaker 1: and they stand firmly behind their finding of suicide by hanging.
20:36
Speaker 1: Then there's the two nooses. This was the one that
20:40
Speaker 1: was sketched and included in the autopsy by the medical examiner,
20:43
Speaker 1: presumably because they thought it was used in Epstein's death.
20:47
Speaker 1: But doctor Boden says that noose and the wounds on
20:50
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein's neck don't appear to match. What do you
20:54
Speaker 1: see when you see these two things together. What I
20:56
Speaker 1: see here is that this noose doesn't matter the ligature,
21:01
Speaker 1: furrow mark. It's wider than this. To nick and eye,
21:05
Speaker 1: it looks like there's some blood here, and it doesn't
21:07
Speaker 1: look like there's any blood on this news. That's right.
21:09
Speaker 1: This looks like a clean noose that was never used
21:12
Speaker 1: to compress anybody's neck. You're hearing our friends at CBS
21:15
Speaker 1: sixteen minutes describing inside Jeffrey Epstein's cell. That was Sharon
21:20
Speaker 1: Alfansi speaking more questions than answers today. Back to Emily Sault,
21:26
Speaker 1: New York Posted journalists. The fact that the corrections officer
21:30
Speaker 1: Michael Thomas that discovered Epstein and apparently cut down his body,
21:34
Speaker 1: I mean, I assume that's what happened has not been questioned.
21:38
Speaker 1: You've got a renown medical examiners saying the news had
21:40
Speaker 1: no blood on it, when we can clearly see the
21:43
Speaker 1: wound to his neck is bloody. Emily, why aren't they
21:47
Speaker 1: questioning the first officers on the scene, and what are
21:51
Speaker 1: the answers about how protocol was clearly violated? I mean,
21:55
Speaker 1: these are fantastic questions, and they're ones where answered, I
21:58
Speaker 1: lean the Justice Department and the BOP have done absolutely
22:02
Speaker 1: everything they can to not publicly answer. What are you saying,
22:06
Speaker 1: the BOP or the Bureau of Prisons, which is a
22:09
Speaker 1: section of the Department of Justice, who is over seeing
22:11
Speaker 1: the investigation. Yeah, they just have for every time we
22:15
Speaker 1: ask for a comment, every time we put in a
22:17
Speaker 1: foil request for information, the same answer we're given continually
22:20
Speaker 1: is that the investigation is ongoing and therefore they can't talk.
22:24
Speaker 1: I hate to steal from Alice in Wonderland, but it
22:26
Speaker 1: seems to get curious or and curious or listen in
22:29
Speaker 1: the pictures of the cell, there are multiple news. Is
22:31
Speaker 1: the fact that the medical examiner sketched one news this news.
22:35
Speaker 1: This is the news they think was responsible for killing Jeffreys. Yes,
22:40
Speaker 1: this would be the ligature, the news that was involved
22:45
Speaker 1: in causing the death. That's why it was sketched. One
22:48
Speaker 1: of the things we have heard is that the guard
22:52
Speaker 1: that found Jeffrey Epstein cut him down, which you'd seem
22:56
Speaker 1: to indicate somebody cutting down a news or something. If
22:58
Speaker 1: you look at the news that the medical examiner examine,
23:02
Speaker 1: and you look very closely at the edges, it appears
23:05
Speaker 1: perfectly hemmed. It doesn't look like anybody ever took scissors
23:08
Speaker 1: to it, So there is some question is that the
23:11
Speaker 1: right news. The difficulties with this story is because they
23:16
Speaker 1: charge two guards, there is a firewall and you cannot
23:19
Speaker 1: get information because you go to the Department of Justice,
23:22
Speaker 1: you go to the FBI and say, hey, what's going
23:24
Speaker 1: on here, and they said, there's an ongoing criminal investigation.
23:27
Speaker 1: We can't tell you anything. To Mark Furnace, Jeffrey Epstein's
23:31
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney. Is it true that Epstein's own brother
23:35
Speaker 1: does not believe this was a suicide, but you can
23:37
Speaker 1: see that by the hiring of doctor Bobben. I think
23:39
Speaker 1: that the answer is they want to find out what
23:41
Speaker 1: the truth is, and there's a lot of questions and
23:45
Speaker 1: suspicions around it, and even doctor Bobden, at this point,
23:48
Speaker 1: at least for public record, is not offering a definitive conclusion.
23:52
Speaker 1: He's just saying that there are, to use your phrase
23:54
Speaker 1: from earlier, a lot of curiosities in the evidence, and
23:58
Speaker 1: in his view at this point, based on what he's examined,
24:01
Speaker 1: it seems to point more strongly to homicide than suicide.
24:05
Speaker 1: So I think he if I could speak for him,
24:09
Speaker 1: is skeptical of the assertion that it was that mister
24:12
Speaker 1: Epstein killed himself and wants to get to the bottom
24:15
Speaker 1: of it and look. So I speak as a citizen
24:19
Speaker 1: and as a criminal defense layer. I understand that there
24:21
Speaker 1: is an ongoing criminal case, and I don't think firewall
24:25
Speaker 1: is that's kind of a loaded question. You have to
24:28
Speaker 1: give some semblance of protection to the defendant's rights. So
24:31
Speaker 1: the government isn't going to just show their hand and
24:33
Speaker 1: talk about what's going on behind the scenes. I say
24:36
Speaker 1: that as a lawyer, but as a citizen, of course,
24:39
Speaker 1: the public wants to know and find out what happened.
24:42
Speaker 1: And if I had to predict how this plays out,
24:45
Speaker 1: and I don't have any inside baseball, this is just
24:48
Speaker 1: on a hunch. This case against the guards is never
24:50
Speaker 1: going to go to trial. At some point, there'll be
24:53
Speaker 1: a disposition reached. I understand from the published reports that
24:57
Speaker 1: they were trying to get these guards to cooperate in
25:00
Speaker 1: the days after Epstein's passing. It didn't work out, and
25:03
Speaker 1: this is why I had to guess will never be
25:05
Speaker 1: aired publicly, at least not against these guards. There'll be
25:10
Speaker 1: a deal reached at some point and you're never going
25:13
Speaker 1: to get a public airing at the fact surrounding his death. Well,
25:15
Speaker 1: that's the way in so many unusual cases, they have
25:21
Speaker 1: a cooling off period where the public singally forgets about
25:23
Speaker 1: it and then there is a deal made and it
25:26
Speaker 1: just goes away and that's the end of it, and
25:28
Speaker 1: the truth never really comes out. To Emily saw New
25:31
Speaker 1: York Post, what would be the incentive to murder Jeffrey Epstein?
25:38
Speaker 1: Another loaded question. I mean, he as he's you know,
25:45
Speaker 1: he's been accused obviously of serial sex abuse going back
25:51
Speaker 1: decades of hundreds of of young girls. And he was
25:57
Speaker 1: known I mean, we have a little black book he
26:00
Speaker 1: he was known to send lots of time with very
26:03
Speaker 1: powerful people. As I mean, we've heard people put it.
26:06
Speaker 1: He liked to collect the rich and famous, and so
26:11
Speaker 1: I mean, if you want, if you care to subscribe
26:13
Speaker 1: to conspiracy theories, at one of them would be that,
26:18
Speaker 1: you know, if someone was concerned that they would be implicated.
26:21
Speaker 1: We have some very big names that appear to have
26:24
Speaker 1: been very close to him. If someone was concerned about
26:28
Speaker 1: potentially being charged themselves or what he knew, I mean,
26:32
Speaker 1: that would certainly be a reason whether or not it's
26:35
Speaker 1: feasible inside the MCC is a whole other story. Well,
26:39
Speaker 1: the reality is to you, Bruce Johnson, you've investigated so
26:42
Speaker 1: many felonies when you look at motivation. Of course, his
26:47
Speaker 1: state never has to prove motivation at a trial. But
26:50
Speaker 1: we know for a fact, according to reliable sources that
26:55
Speaker 1: have been inside Epstein's Manhattan home, that it was covered
27:00
Speaker 1: with video cameras, including in all of the bedrooms. We
27:04
Speaker 1: know that very wealthy and powerful individuals they're visiting Epstein
27:11
Speaker 1: had sex with multiple women, potentially under age women. And
27:17
Speaker 1: obviously we're video Why else do you have a video camera,
27:20
Speaker 1: every video nanny cam in our house videos twenty four
27:24
Speaker 1: to seven. I rarely look at it, but it's there.
27:28
Speaker 1: So those cameras are there for a reason, Bruce. So
27:32
Speaker 1: you want to tell me that nobody has an ex
27:34
Speaker 1: to grind against Epstein with all those video cameras and
27:37
Speaker 1: they're and they're having sex potentially with under age women.
27:41
Speaker 1: There are hundreds of high profile people, including the president
27:44
Speaker 1: former president that had been a book President Clinton and
27:47
Speaker 1: Trump that had been associated with this guy and taking
27:50
Speaker 1: trips to the island, and there are a lot of
27:53
Speaker 1: people shaking in their boots. If this was going to
27:54
Speaker 1: go to a trial they did not want to see.
27:56
Speaker 1: If there's plenty of cause for people not to want
27:59
Speaker 1: to see this guy go to the investigation part. You
28:01
Speaker 1: may not have video of these cells or video that
28:04
Speaker 1: was lost. You got video of the guards. He doesn't
28:06
Speaker 1: walk around with scissors in his pocket or on his
28:09
Speaker 1: hip with his gun belt. Where did he get the scissors.
28:11
Speaker 1: He had to go get the scissors. He said he
28:13
Speaker 1: was there alone. So I want to know information on that.
28:16
Speaker 1: The crime scene. When you look at the cell, that
28:18
Speaker 1: looks like a holiday in hotel room upon checkout, there
28:21
Speaker 1: are sheets and stuff all over the place, their accords
28:24
Speaker 1: in there, it doesn't make sense that this guy's on
28:28
Speaker 1: suicide watch every one of us. You look at those
28:30
Speaker 1: you look at the cell, you open up the cell door,
28:33
Speaker 1: and you see that that looks like a hotel room,
28:35
Speaker 1: their sheets in there. From five people, well, you're absolutely right,
28:39
Speaker 1: the cell was a wreck. Let's star phrase at ABC
28:44
Speaker 1: twenty five wp f B Terry Parker you can found
28:47
Speaker 1: inside Jeffrey Epstein's cell after his death doesn't support the
28:51
Speaker 1: conclusion that Epstein hung himself using a bedsheet. Does it
28:54
Speaker 1: look stage to you, that's certainly one of the appearances
29:00
Speaker 1: it has yet staged suicide. Badden says it's hard to
29:04
Speaker 1: tell how Epstein really died because jail's staff inexplicably moved
29:08
Speaker 1: Epstein's body before the medical examiner arrived and could document
29:12
Speaker 1: the evidence. It is highly unusual to remove a dead
29:16
Speaker 1: body from a cell before it's fully investigated. Investigators found
29:23
Speaker 1: numerous orange bed sheets on the floor, some tight and
29:26
Speaker 1: complicated nooses, and part of one sheet attached to a
29:29
Speaker 1: rung of the bottom metal bunk. Badden says the sheet
29:33
Speaker 1: was too low to the floor to explain the broken
29:35
Speaker 1: bone and cartilage at Epstein's neck, which had to come
29:38
Speaker 1: from extreme force, not from just kneeling. Forward Crime Stories
29:54
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. He found inside Jeffrey Epstein's cell after
29:59
Speaker 1: his death doesn't support the conclusion that Epstein hung himself
30:03
Speaker 1: using a bedsheet. Does it look stage to you? That's
30:08
Speaker 1: certainly one of the appearances that has yet stage suicide.
30:13
Speaker 1: Badden says it's hard to tell how Epstein really died
30:16
Speaker 1: because jail's staff inexplicably moved Epstein's body before the medical
30:21
Speaker 1: examiner arrived and could document the evidence. It is highly
30:25
Speaker 1: unusual to move a dead body from a sel before
30:33
Speaker 1: it's fully investigated. Investigators found numerous orange bedsheets on the floor,
30:37
Speaker 1: some tight and complicated nooses, and part of one sheet
30:41
Speaker 1: attached to a rung of the bottom metal bunk. Badden
30:44
Speaker 1: says the sheet was too low to the floor to
30:46
Speaker 1: explain the broken bone and cartilage at Epstein's neck, which
30:50
Speaker 1: had to come from extreme force, not from just kneeling.
30:53
Speaker 1: Forward to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, what about that,
30:58
Speaker 1: now we all became well, many people became familiar with
31:01
Speaker 1: that mode of suicide when comedian Robin Williams hung himself
31:08
Speaker 1: apparently from a doorknob. So explain what you are hearing
31:14
Speaker 1: and why if you think so, that's inconsistent with suicide. Yeah,
31:18
Speaker 1: back to the Robin Williams case. As our colleague mentioned
31:21
Speaker 1: just a moment ago, you're not required to be suspended
31:25
Speaker 1: in the air in order to hang yourself. I'll go
31:27
Speaker 1: ahead and say that. And that suspension that has been
31:31
Speaker 1: previously mentioned. This could be accomplished if you're on your knees.
31:35
Speaker 1: But this is kind of a slow event, okay, where
31:38
Speaker 1: you're sinking into the noose. You can either lean forward,
31:41
Speaker 1: I guess, or you can sit on your backside on
31:44
Speaker 1: the floor. But when you begin to look at the
31:47
Speaker 1: height that we're talking about, that that rung where we
31:51
Speaker 1: see the cloth wrapped around the rung, is that sufficient
31:55
Speaker 1: to offer up the amount of force that it would
31:58
Speaker 1: take Nancy not to create one fracture, but two fractures
32:03
Speaker 1: in the thyroid cartilage as well as one of the
32:07
Speaker 1: greater horns of the highoid, which is actually seated up
32:10
Speaker 1: high in the neck. Now that's what Boden is talking
32:13
Speaker 1: about here, this tremendous amount of force, it seems less
32:19
Speaker 1: than plausible, I'll put it that way, that you could
32:22
Speaker 1: achieve this by simply squatting in one position. I have
32:27
Speaker 1: to say. The morning that this happened, I did a
32:29
Speaker 1: screen capture of them wheeling Epstein into the emergency room.
32:35
Speaker 1: There was a brief shot of him and you had
32:38
Speaker 1: the EMTs that were bringing him in. He had a
32:41
Speaker 1: ligature around his neck at that moment in time. And
32:45
Speaker 1: I've reflected back on that a couple of times since
32:48
Speaker 1: this has all come down. It had to be removed
32:51
Speaker 1: Prior to that. I look at that jail cell. I'm
32:54
Speaker 1: not going to go out and say that this thing
32:56
Speaker 1: was staged. But I have to say, been in a
33:01
Speaker 1: number of cells working suicides and other types of deaths
33:05
Speaker 1: in various correstional facilities. This place, this place actually verges
33:11
Speaker 1: on squalid in appearance, and this is a federal Facility's
33:15
Speaker 1: exactly what Emily saw. A New York Post is saying,
33:18
Speaker 1: but how does that relate to the homicide slash suicide? Well,
33:22
Speaker 1: I think that how it relates is that it gives
33:25
Speaker 1: you an idea that no one was paying attention to
33:28
Speaker 1: this guy. Nancy got it to doctor Kennel. Crowns agree
33:32
Speaker 1: or disagree because of mister Epstein's age. What happens is
33:37
Speaker 1: your high late bone, your thyroid cartilage has actually become
33:40
Speaker 1: more fragile as you get older, once you get into
33:43
Speaker 1: the sixties, late fifties, early sixties, these bones break a
33:47
Speaker 1: lot more easier or easily. I'm sorry, So I think, yes,
33:52
Speaker 1: he could have leaned into it and those bones could
33:55
Speaker 1: have broken. The other thing you have to think of, too,
33:57
Speaker 1: is they did appear to try and debate him, because
34:00
Speaker 1: there is information that there's abrasions about his mouth from innubation.
34:05
Speaker 1: The EMPs as they're trying to manipulate his oral airway
34:09
Speaker 1: could have also further exaggerated those structures. So because of
34:14
Speaker 1: his age, because of the fact that they intubated him
34:18
Speaker 1: or put an air tube in his mouth, but I've
34:20
Speaker 1: never heard of intubation and causing fractures. Hold on, is
34:25
Speaker 1: that marker Bruce speaking Bruce Japan. What it looks like
34:29
Speaker 1: is if you look at the investigation portion right now,
34:32
Speaker 1: what he said that the news was not on the
34:34
Speaker 1: neck going to m he never should have been moved.
34:36
Speaker 1: That tells me that the investigation is going that, Hey,
34:39
Speaker 1: we're trying to save a life. We just got here.
34:41
Speaker 1: We've seen him in the cell, we cut him down,
34:43
Speaker 1: we're rushing him to the emergency room. We're going to
34:45
Speaker 1: try and save him. They knew he was dead. They
34:47
Speaker 1: didn't know he was dead for eight hours, but they
34:49
Speaker 1: knew he had been dead. He's probably gold to the touch.
34:53
Speaker 1: Rigor mortis is probably already starting to set in right right.
34:56
Speaker 1: We know, we know it was a huge breaking protocol
34:59
Speaker 1: to move the body, and I agree with you that
35:03
Speaker 1: take a listen to this and in comparison to the
35:06
Speaker 1: chaotic scene in the room, here's the dichotomy. He says,
35:11
Speaker 1: it doesn't appear he jumped off the top bunk. There's
35:14
Speaker 1: nothing disturbed in the top bunk of than a whole
35:16
Speaker 1: bunch of personal items are up there. But if he
35:20
Speaker 1: jumped off the bed, he would show injuries on the body.
35:24
Speaker 1: Batton says the thick sheet knodded into the noose Epstein
35:27
Speaker 1: allegedly used doesn't match his injuries, which looked more like
35:30
Speaker 1: they were made from a rope. Doesn't seem for the
35:33
Speaker 1: photographs to match the compression mark on the neck. Plus,
35:42
Speaker 1: Batton says there was no transfer of blood or skin
35:45
Speaker 1: to that news, although Epstein had a bloody wound under
35:48
Speaker 1: his chin. I think we need more information to be
35:51
Speaker 1: able to arrive at a conclusion as to whether what
35:55
Speaker 1: the corse of death is and whether it's a suicide
35:59
Speaker 1: or or not. Bruce Johnson undersp has an autopsy question
36:03
Speaker 1: go ahead for the doctor. Every in custody death that
36:06
Speaker 1: I have had, there's been no autopsy pitches that we've
36:09
Speaker 1: seen of the organs on the table or any of that,
36:11
Speaker 1: and I understand that that's fine, but we do need
36:14
Speaker 1: to know if they filate him, and what that means
36:18
Speaker 1: is every muscle group is cut and observed for damage
36:23
Speaker 1: to the tissues. Will we'd be able to find out
36:25
Speaker 1: if he has been hilated in that manner his forearms
36:28
Speaker 1: top and bottom? What about it, Doctor Kendall Crown's. Oh, yes,
36:31
Speaker 1: any death in custody of this nature. A full body filet,
36:36
Speaker 1: which means you're cutting the skin of the back and
36:39
Speaker 1: pulling it us pulling it back to expose all the
36:41
Speaker 1: muscle groups is standard as part of that autopsy, and
36:45
Speaker 1: it should be part of the autopsy protocol that they
36:47
Speaker 1: mentioned that they filate the body to Emily saw New
36:50
Speaker 1: York Post journalists. He's been on the case from the
36:52
Speaker 1: get go and covers that region, including all crime and juice. Emily,
36:58
Speaker 1: nobody seems to want to go. I don't know, Lamb,
37:00
Speaker 1: but I'm just telling you there are too many problems
37:04
Speaker 1: with this scenario. One coincidence, sure, maybe two, okay, but
37:11
Speaker 1: when there are three, four, ten, fifteen coincidences, that's just
37:15
Speaker 1: too much. I mean, I agree with you, it is.
37:19
Speaker 1: It's mind boggling the number of things that seem to
37:22
Speaker 1: have gone wrong here, and then to look at the
37:25
Speaker 1: cell itself, which is you know, one of one of
37:29
Speaker 1: your guests described I believe it a holiday, and after
37:32
Speaker 1: check out the idea that someone who was on suicide
37:36
Speaker 1: watch briefly removed inexplicably would have so many bedsheets in
37:41
Speaker 1: their room, and then to view the photos of what
37:44
Speaker 1: appear to be you have little knotted nooses everywhere. It
37:49
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense you also have I mean, he would
37:51
Speaker 1: have to tear the bedsheets, and the ligatures themselves that
37:57
Speaker 1: we've seen all appear to be perfectly cut. We also,
38:01
Speaker 1: upon information and belief, they think he was dead for
38:04
Speaker 1: maybe two hours before he was discovered around sticks thirty,
38:07
Speaker 1: which would mean that he was one would think, very
38:10
Speaker 1: visibly dead. I'm also if I mean, if I could
38:13
Speaker 1: direct a question with a doctor from the autopsy photos
38:16
Speaker 1: I've seen, it appears that he had blood pulled in
38:19
Speaker 1: his back, which even if you are hanging yourself from
38:22
Speaker 1: a squatting or sitting position, you'd think the blood would
38:25
Speaker 1: be directed downward as opposed to pooling in the back.
38:29
Speaker 1: Would would two hours be enough time? Because for me
38:33
Speaker 1: that that almost is the most confusing bit of this. Wow,
38:39
Speaker 1: that's an excellent point. Joe Scott Morgan, Now try your best, Okay,
38:44
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pit you against doctor Kendall Crowns, because you
38:46
Speaker 1: know I'm putting two dogs in the ring. Joe Scott Morgan,
38:50
Speaker 1: do you think it's within your power to break down
38:53
Speaker 1: what she said and answer in simple terms? I mean,
38:55
Speaker 1: can you do that? Because I doubt Crowns can't because
38:58
Speaker 1: he is an m d. But throwing it to you first,
39:01
Speaker 1: give it a try. Yeah, the coloration or the postmormal
39:04
Speaker 1: avidity that you see between the shoulder body. What did
39:08
Speaker 1: I just say? I just said, dubby down and there
39:11
Speaker 1: you go, last chance, Morgan. The blood that has settled,
39:21
Speaker 1: it can be quite consistent with him laying in a
39:24
Speaker 1: tray overnight. If they put him in a face up position,
39:29
Speaker 1: say just on the gurney. If you just leave him
39:31
Speaker 1: in the gurney in the emergency room for a period
39:34
Speaker 1: of time, then put his body in the cooler, the
39:36
Speaker 1: blood is still going to settle into that depended area.
39:40
Speaker 1: What would what is really needs to happen is that
39:44
Speaker 1: we need to see how deep, how deep the lividity was, say,
39:49
Speaker 1: for instance, on the back side of his legs, it'll
39:52
Speaker 1: it'll have a different appearance to it and maybe his
39:55
Speaker 1: lower legs. That people are saying that this is a
39:57
Speaker 1: suspension hanging because blood will settle in those areas. But
40:00
Speaker 1: it's easily explained that he would have discoloration in his
40:03
Speaker 1: back from the blood pooling. Okay, I kind of understood
40:07
Speaker 1: part of that, doctor Kennel Crowns, but remember I'm just
40:09
Speaker 1: a JD. You're the MD, and Jess got Morgan. He
40:13
Speaker 1: sounds like a computer spinning out a lot of confusing terms,
40:17
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, I guess that was your best attempt to
40:19
Speaker 1: be a regular guy, Doctor Kennel Crowns. Place help us.
40:22
Speaker 1: So the lividity or the blood pooling that occurs after
40:26
Speaker 1: your heart stops beating, it can take. It starts immediately.
40:32
Speaker 1: The blood pooling will start immediately. But the problem is
40:35
Speaker 1: is it doesn't become fixed in place or stuck in
40:39
Speaker 1: place for several hours. So if you're and it is
40:43
Speaker 1: pulled by gravitational forces. So if you're upright when you die,
40:47
Speaker 1: like in a suspension hanging, it will pull around your
40:50
Speaker 1: legs and things like that. But if you're put on
40:53
Speaker 1: your back, it will pull along your back, so it'll
40:57
Speaker 1: become fixed after about eight to twelve hours to two
41:00
Speaker 1: to three days. It can vary depending on many circumstances.
41:04
Speaker 1: So he's found and then taken down from his position,
41:08
Speaker 1: put on his back on a gurney. So that's going
41:11
Speaker 1: to alter how the lividity looks no matter what happened.
41:14
Speaker 1: So you can't really look at lividity in this and
41:17
Speaker 1: get any idea of how his body. But wouldn't hit right?
41:20
Speaker 1: Let me let me think this through. So I think
41:23
Speaker 1: what Emily is saying is that the pulling of the
41:27
Speaker 1: blood in his lower in the in his back and
41:30
Speaker 1: his buttocks regions suggest he had been there for a
41:33
Speaker 1: longer period of time. But doctor Kennel Crowns had just
41:37
Speaker 1: got Morganer saying that would have happened because he was
41:40
Speaker 1: on a gurney for a period of time. Emily, did
41:42
Speaker 1: I get that right? That would be one of my
41:44
Speaker 1: questions as a delay person. Was just that to me? Okay,
41:49
Speaker 1: you know what? You know? There's so many problems and
41:55
Speaker 1: so many issues. Last question to Mark Furnish, Epstein's criminal
42:00
Speaker 1: defense lawyer, and boy, you got your hands full. Even
42:02
Speaker 1: now he's dead and he still won't go away. Mark Furnish,
42:06
Speaker 1: who would have benefited? Yeah, who would have benefited the
42:10
Speaker 1: most from this? Being called officially a suicide. Well, Mancy,
42:18
Speaker 1: I've been listening to this and I've been thinking about it.
42:21
Speaker 1: I'm not Quincy. I wasn't there that night. None of
42:25
Speaker 1: us knows what's happening. We're all operating, operating on the
42:29
Speaker 1: basis of incomplete information. But this is what I can
42:33
Speaker 1: tell you. There's no doubt that this was a tough case,
42:37
Speaker 1: because Epstein had already been convicted three times over in
42:40
Speaker 1: the court of public opinion. But by the same token,
42:44
Speaker 1: I assure you that we had very substantial legal and
42:49
Speaker 1: factual defenses to the case, legally based in part on
42:54
Speaker 1: the prior non prosecution agreement he had signed, and mister
42:59
Speaker 1: Epstein was away of all of these things, and it seems,
43:03
Speaker 1: just speaking for me personally, it seems very very implausible,
43:08
Speaker 1: given the state of the case and the fact that
43:10
Speaker 1: we had substantial legal and factual defenses and a triable case,
43:15
Speaker 1: it seems implausible to me personally that he would have
43:19
Speaker 1: taken his own life, particularly at that particular moment, just
43:24
Speaker 1: at the infancy of the case. Stranger things have certainly happened,
43:28
Speaker 1: certainly not ruling anything out, but the media, they didn't
43:32
Speaker 1: have the whole story of the case as I said
43:35
Speaker 1: it was a hard case, no question about that. But
43:39
Speaker 1: a case where we were in the fight, we're never
43:43
Speaker 1: going to have it. We're never going to have the
43:45
Speaker 1: whole story. And frankly, we still don't have the whole story.
43:48
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to prosecutors and the government is keeping it
43:52
Speaker 1: a secret, and I don't like that. We wait as
43:55
Speaker 1: just as unfals. Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off, goodbye
43:59
Speaker 1: fan