Latest / Mini Scroll / Look What We Made Her Do: How Taylor Swift Built The Swiftie Cult

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Look What We Made Her Do: How Taylor Swift Built The Swiftie Cult · Mini Scroll

0:00
On September 13th, 2919 year old Taylor Swift arrived at the red
0:04
carpet for the Video Music Awards in a glass pumpkin shaped
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horse drawn carriage. Wearing a glittering silver
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gown, Taylor was in the process of crossing over from country
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singer to mainstream pop star. Tonight Taylor was Cinderella
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and the VM as were the Ball where she plans to make her
0:22
official debut into the world of pop music.
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Taylor was nominated in a single category, Best Video by a Female
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Artist for You Belong With Me off her sophomore album
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Fearless. Other nominees in this category
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included Kelly Clarkson, Lady Gaga, Katy Perry, Pink, and of
0:39
course, Beyoncé, who was tipped to win the award for Single
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Ladies, The first award of the night, Taylor Swift was
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announced the winner for Best Video by a Female Artist.
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She made her way to the stage looking shocked and excited, and
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was presented the award by Shakira and Taylor Lautner I
0:58
always dreamed about. What it would be like to maybe
1:01
win one of these someday, but I never actually thought that
1:03
would have happened. I sing country music.
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So thank you so much for giving me a chance to win AVMA award.
1:10
I. As Taylor went to continue, she
1:14
was met with an unexpected surprise.
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Kanye West, who was nominated for four awards that night,
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sprang from his front row seat in the audience, rushed the
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stage and grabbed the microphone out of Taylor's hands.
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Yo Taylor, I I'm really happy for you.
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I'm let you finish, but Beyoncé had one of the best videos of
1:33
all time. The crowd booed and Beyoncé sat
1:35
in the audience mouth a gape in horror as Kanye handed the
1:40
microphone back to Taylor. The 19 year old country singer
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who had just won her first VMA stood there stiff and silent
1:47
before the program cut to a pre recorded segment between Eminem
1:50
and Tracy Morgan. Kanye returned to his seat where
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he was chewed out by Pink and later escorted out of the event.
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Hours later, Beyoncé won Video of the Year for Single Ladies
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and called Taylor back on stage to let her finish her speech.
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This was the night that would change the course of
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entertainment and pop culture, including Taylor's career for
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over a decade to come. From Centennial World, I'm
2:13
Lauren Meisner and This is Infinite Scroll, a podcast about
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Internet culture, the creator economy, and how social media is
2:20
shaping Gen. Z.
2:22
Welcome back to Infinite Scroll everyone.
2:25
And welcome to my first Co host of the new pod, Crystal Andrews.
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Hello Hello. OK, so we are recording in real
2:35
life on video. This is your first time Co
2:37
hosting Infinite. Scroll with video.
2:39
Yes, I've done podcasts with you before, and I think with Jordy
2:43
before. Not on video though.
2:45
It's intimidating to have the camera in here, I'm not going to
2:47
lie. Yeah, it's definitely a
2:49
different energy for sure, but do you want to give people a
2:52
quick intro into who you are for anyone that does not know?
2:55
Yes, I think some fans of Z Feed definitely listen to Infinite
2:58
Scroll. It's one of my most recommended
3:00
podcasts, of course. But I am the founder and editor
3:03
of Z Feed, which is a feminist news, pop culture and culture
3:07
commentary and analysis site, and we cover all kinds of
3:10
politics, economics, social justice.
3:12
But absolutely big things that matter to young women like
3:17
Taylor Swift, I was. Going to say including Taylor
3:20
Swift. Including Taylor Swift.
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Yes. So Crystal is joining me today.
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She's actually in town. She moved to Hobart recently and
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she's in Sydney for eras. We're both going to eras.
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We have our friendship bracelets on.
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We're actually both going Saturday and Sunday night, which
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is going to tie in a little bit to today's episode, like our
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involvement, I guess, in the Swifty Nation.
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Our. Experience.
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I think we should clarify that we are.
3:47
Yes, I'm. Like.
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Yes, yes. I'm like a moderate Swifty.
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I'm gonna talk a little bit more about my experience being a
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Taylor Swift fan later in the episode, but just starting this
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off, we are both Taylor Swift fans.
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We have been like all in on airs this weekend.
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You know crystal staying over. We are both going two nights in
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a row. We are doing the friendship
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bracelets. We went to a Taylor Swift themed
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cafe in my suburb yesterday for breakfast like we're going all
4:13
in. It's actually been a really big
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weekend and we haven't been to the concert.
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I know we. Haven't been to see anything
4:19
yet, but it's been so intense and the vibes are definitely all
4:22
taking over Sydney right now. It is just there's girls
4:26
everywhere. There's like sequins, sparkles,
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glitters everywhere. It's a very fun vibe here at the
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moment. Yeah, it's really cute.
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It kind of reminds me of Barbie movie.
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Like the frenzy around that. Yes.
4:35
But anyways, as always, Please remember to rate, review and
4:38
subscribe guys. It helps the podcast grow and I
4:41
love reading your words of encouragement.
4:43
It just makes my day. Please also sign up up to our
4:46
newsletter, which is called Infinite Scroll as well.
4:49
On Wednesdays we send out a commentary article about a
4:52
trend, creator, drama or news. And on Fridays we round up the
4:56
five biggest thing pieces on the Internet from that week.
4:59
And also join our Geneva Group, which is also called Infinite
5:02
Scroll, where you can chat to other people about Internet
5:05
culture, creator drama and tea. And you can chat with me as
5:08
well. OK.
5:10
So I'm gonna read a couple reviews that we got.
5:12
We're actually recording this really early, so if you are
5:14
about to leave me a review this week and I don't get to it,
5:16
that's why. Because this is recorded like
5:18
almost a full seven days before I normally record these
5:21
episodes. But Tara said thank you Lauren,
5:24
for blessing us with another great EP.
5:26
Loving the little life slash business updates too.
5:29
Thank you, Tara. She's an OG listener.
5:31
And then Jupiter Blood SAW 3011 on YouTube said great ending.
5:36
Well put. I hope your channel gets more
5:37
insights and views. Thank you.
5:39
I never know if these comments if they're like bots or not.
5:42
That seems real, but I. Think that's?
5:44
Real. The beginning sounds real.
5:45
Yeah, I also hope the channel gets more insights and views
5:48
endorsed. While the 2009 VMA's was a
5:50
crucial moment in the trajectory of Taylor Swift's career and the
5:54
Swifty fandom, it wasn't the origin.
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Taylor has always harnessed the power of fandom since the
6:00
beginning of her career, being one of the first country artists
6:03
ever to use the Internet to promote her music in its early
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days. In 2005, Taylor joined Myspace
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one day before her then labeled Big Machine Records was
6:12
inaugurated. She used Myspace to market her
6:15
music and connect with her listeners, racking up over
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45,000,000 listens of her songs on the platform.
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Scott Borchetta, the CEO of Big Machine, used this as proof to
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country radio stations to convince them to play her music.
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Rolling Stone writer Britney Spanos claims that Taylor's
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social media use is how she grew her fan base.
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End Quote, She was using Tumblr way past its prime.
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Twitter. She's now on Tiktok, commenting
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on people's videos. Taylor's debut album was what
6:43
the music industry calls a sleeper success, an album that
6:46
has had consistent sales over a long period of time.
6:50
The sleeper success of Debut feels like foreshadowing for her
6:52
entire career to come, because one of the most interesting
6:56
things about Taylor's career that critics, journalists,
6:58
academics, and music enthusiasts have spent copious amounts of
7:02
time mulling on is how is it possible that Taylor Swift's
7:05
success has remained so steady? In a piece for ID journalist
7:10
Michael Craig calls Taylor's popularity and longevity
7:13
ceaseless fame and global influence unseen since the 20th
7:17
century. Taylor's debut album was wildly
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successful in the US, helping her build an American fan base
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of country music listeners. But it was her second album,
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Fearless, that kicked off Swifty Nation globally, especially her
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songs Love Story and You Belong With Me, as they were played on
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pop radio rather than just country stations in places like
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the United Kingdom, Ireland, Brazil, Philippines, Vietnam,
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Taiwan, and India. The term Swifty gained
7:44
popularity in the late 2000s. The first documented instance of
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Taylor addressing the term was in 2012 during an interview with
7:52
Vivo. She explains that her fans call
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themselves Swifties and said she thought that was adorable.
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Taylor's relationship with the Swifties is what many attribute
8:02
to her cultural relevance. Journalist Laura Kelly for The
8:06
Atlantic Daily says that Taylor quote understands the power of
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the group experience, where she puts herself in the same
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figurative friendship group as her fans to build that
8:15
parasocial relationship. Taylor interacts directly with
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her fans by sending them gifts, replying to them on social
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media, hand selecting them to attend meet and greets and even
8:25
stalking them on social media which her fans have dubbed
8:27
Taylor King. And one of the most significant
8:32
things that she did early on is hand selecting not just for meet
8:36
and greets, but hand selecting super fans that her mom would
8:41
pick out of the crowd at concerts.
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To these I think she called them secret sessions where they would
8:47
like have previews, I suppose to her unreleased albums yet.
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And it's a trend actually that's still continuing now with the
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the 22 hat, you know about the the 22 hat.
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So either Andrea Swift or Scott Swift, her parents obviously
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will scan the crowd. Keep an eye out for anyone who
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looks like they, you know have really gone above and beyond.
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Die hard Fan will personally and select them to be the one who
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receives the hat from Taylor Swift when she performs 22.
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So they'll like get a position, right U the front of the stage,
9:19
do her little choreography, take the hat off, give it to them,
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have a little exchange with them and it's it's like this very
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coveted obviously moment because only one person per performance
9:29
will get it. But they've done that throughout
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the entirety of the Era Tour and they're continuing it in
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Australia as well. They're still hand selecting
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fans from the crowd to get a special experience.
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It's so wild because she's so good at building the Swifty
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fandom, and it's in such a unique way.
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Dr. Georgia Carroll, who did her PhD on the Swifty fandom and
9:51
that relationship between Taylor Swift and her fans.
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I was watching her keynote speech at Swift.
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What's it called? Swift Posey recently and she was
10:01
explaining this dynamic and she was saying how it's.
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I don't she didn't quite use the word manipulative, but that's
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essentially what she was getting at that you know Taylor and her
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team foster all of these experiences for the Swifties
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where they essentially reward the best fan and they they put
10:20
this hierarchy into the Swifty fandom themselves without I
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think often us as Swifties or fans realizing that that's what
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they're doing because they're rewarding like the best fans,
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the biggest fans, the ones who are showing undying support for
10:34
her no matter what she's doing or what's happening.
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And it's such an interesting dynamic because the these little
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moments that the Swifties die for is like that connection with
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her, that relationship with her, that ability to to be like the
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famous fan, which we Jordy and I actually did an episode on
10:50
famous fans a few months ago I believe it was.
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So go back and listen to that. But that's kind of what they do
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here is they help these fans become famous fans within the
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fandom by like rewarding them for being the best.
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Yes. And you really can't understate
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how early she was to all of this because this is kind of a normal
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conversation now in 2024. Like, yes, there are heaps of
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celebrities, not even just musical artists, who will
11:15
interact with their fans and you know, DM with fans and repost
11:18
things. Like, there's a lot of
11:19
engagement, but this is like early, early social media.
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Like we are talking about Myspace.
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Yeah, this is going back a long way.
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Like it truly is. It is a very innovative way to
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have that fan engagement that she has maintained the whole
11:34
time, like no matter how big she has gotten.
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And it really is what made this more like a community as opposed
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to just a fan base or an audience.
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And these session selections. Wait, is that what it's called?
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Session selections? Secret session, secret sessions.
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We're often held like at her home.
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That is so wild. But another thing that Doctor
11:56
Georgia Carroll was saying is that for a lot of fans, the
12:01
reason why they become entrenched in a fandom for a
12:04
specific TV show or an artist or whatever is because they're
12:06
actually trying to create their own content around that
12:10
storyline or that person. That kind of goes against the
12:14
machine in a way. Against the corporate, where
12:17
they want to interact with that like their desired fan object,
12:22
outside of having to constantly spend money or within the
12:26
confines of the storylines that are provided to them or whatever
12:28
it is. Whereas it's the opposite for
12:30
Swifties. They are part of the fandom to
12:33
engage with the corporation behind Taylor Swift.
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To get those opportunities. Yes, it's so interesting, Zoya
12:39
Razashik of the Independent writes.
12:41
That Taylor quote remains at the forefront of delivering fan
12:44
based experiences to cultivate an ever growing following.
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Whether it's personal invites to the singer's house for album
12:50
listening parties AKA secret sessions or pre show Hangouts,
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she continues to put her fans 1st.
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And I think one of the biggest differences between Taylor and
12:59
other artists in my opinion is that she does not show us the
13:02
perils of international stardom. She does not complain publicly
13:06
about how difficult it is to not have privacy or the logistics of
13:10
her life, and I think that makes her seem, number one, really
13:14
grateful for what she has. And to her fans.
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And #2 like she genuinely enjoys being famous and thus she
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genuinely enjoys interacting with her fans because her fans
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are the ones that made her famous.
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I think there's just so many mega celebrities who treat fame
13:28
like a burden and that sentiment really trickles into their
13:31
fandom and you as a fan end up feeling like a burden on your
13:35
favorite celebrity now. Whereas Taylor has been so good
13:38
at making her fans feel like everything she does is for them
13:42
because she just loves being famous and having fans.
13:45
And I actually do think that is true.
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Yeah, and I think her true passion for music, like, she
13:51
clearly is an incredibly creative person.
13:53
I mean, the business of it all side for a second.
13:56
She's so creative. She obviously loves music.
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And that enthusiasm is really contagious.
14:02
Like, you can see it in the behind the scenes, like, you
14:04
know, documentaries that we get of the recording of albums or
14:07
songs or whatever it is. You can tell she's actually
14:10
psyched about it and that makes the fans psyched about it.
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You can't help it, you know, lean into that enthusiasm.
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Totally. Another generally accepted
14:19
reason for Taylor's massive cultural impact is the universe
14:22
she creates around her music. Keeping her fans constantly
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connected to her as they help tell her story.
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Through different Easter egg hunts and ongoing analysis, her
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fans turn everything Taylor does into a hypothetical
14:35
archaeological dig. Hey guys, it's Taylor Swift.
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And today I'm going to talk to you about Easter eggs.
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No, not the Bunny pastel Easter eggs, although I really do love
14:47
that aesthetic. Right now I'm loving pastels.
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But yeah, Easter eggs that I'm going to talk to you about are
14:53
the kind of cryptic message sending Easter eggs.
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This has contributed to extensive lore about Taylor and
14:59
her world, and this lore strengthens the Swifty community
15:02
by creating a very clear divide between them versus US.
15:07
If you know, you know, and if you don't, you're not in the
15:10
fandom. And that's actually we were
15:13
talking about that because you put me in my place recently
15:15
where you're like I was saying something about like eras and I
15:17
was like, I I don't know if I asked why it was called eras or
15:21
why she's doing this tour now. I don't know.
15:23
There was something and you were like, it's because of this
15:24
house. And then you sent me that
15:26
diagram. I was like, oh, OK, Swifty.
15:30
Yeah, like it is a real spectrum.
15:33
You are a fan like you are. Absolutely.
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Undeniably a fan. Enjoy the music, love the music.
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You're going to the tour and you're like, why is everyone,
15:41
what's the deal with this house? Where does this house come from?
15:44
And even though I would definitely, I'm more along the
15:49
Swifty spectrum than you are, I'm more into it.
15:52
But I've definitely never done like, the Easter egg digs.
15:55
Like, I I don't theorize about that stuff online, but I consume
15:59
it and I look at the other stuff that other people make about
16:02
what, you know, could be a secret meaning of or a special
16:05
symbol. And so I know a little bit more
16:07
about that, Yeah, than you. But there are definitely a lot
16:11
of Swifties out there who know way, way, way, way more about it
16:14
than me A. 100% The Swifties take this lore one step further
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by bringing it into real life, creating social bonds with other
16:21
fans, and expressing their fandom through what business
16:24
scientists Brendan Canavan and Claire Mccamley call post
16:28
postmodern consumerism. Bruce Arthur for the Toronto
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Star notes that this type of fandom is unique for a pop star,
16:35
but not unique when compared to other types of fandoms.
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Quote People like to frame Swifty's as an extreme case, but
16:42
it sort of functions the same way as in sports, which is
16:45
exactly what it is like if you think about sports fans and how
16:49
much money they spend on their favorite sports team, all of the
16:52
merch and memorabilia that they collect.
16:55
It's so similar to how Taylor Swift fans function like Big
16:59
Swifties. And delving into the law around
17:01
Taylor Swift, I think it is a direct equivalent to like, OK,
17:05
do you know the history of this Sports Club?
17:07
You know, going back through the years when this player was
17:11
traded or this person, this coach came on board, Then when
17:14
there was a good season, when we've had a bad season, I mean,
17:16
I also am a sports girly and I have my favorite teams that I've
17:20
followed for pretty much my whole life.
17:22
And it is just like that. There is so much to know and so
17:26
much knowledge around it that it's a really rich hobby.
17:29
Like, that's why these things are hobbies and not just things
17:31
that we consume. Yeah, in the case of the Aras
17:34
Tour, this consumerism was largely driven by the Swifties.
17:38
The sequin outfits, bedazzled makeup and hairstyles, the
17:41
rhinestone cowboy boots, and of course the countless friendship
17:44
bracelets are all things that Swifties decided are the right
17:48
way to express your fandom at the Aras Tour.
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As Crystal herself writes for the Z Feed newsletter, quote
17:56
Taylor Swift, the person is not responsible for creating the
17:59
extent of overconsumption. We're seeing themed outfits and
18:03
friendship bracelets are ideas that fans came up with on their
18:05
own. There has never been an
18:07
instruction from brand Swift to do any of this.
18:10
Confetti cannons go off at the end of the era's concerts, but
18:13
that's pretty normal for all kinds of big events.
18:15
It's hardly an extraordinary source of pollution now.
18:19
Crystal's newsletter was actually the inspiration for
18:21
this entire episode, but not just because the content was on
18:24
point, mostly because of the reaction to the content.
18:29
I have such trauma. I did warn Lauren before we
18:33
decided to really do this episode.
18:35
I'm like, Are you sure you want to do this?
18:38
Because it is a very intense subject to wade into.
18:42
It's very, very divisive. People have a lot of opinions,
18:45
which is good. I mean, discussion about these
18:47
things is fantastic, but yeah, it's been a scary week.
18:51
Yeah. So do you want to kind of
18:52
explain what kind of reaction you received from writing this?
18:56
So what was your newsletter about?
18:58
So the newsletter was about, it was a self reflection really,
19:01
about going to the Uris Tour. I'm someone who tries to
19:05
practice conscious consumerism. I'm really careful about what I
19:08
shop in terms of like, fashion, homewares, beauty.
19:11
I'm not a shopper and that's an ethical and environmental
19:14
decision I've made for my own life.
19:15
So the newsletter was just a reflection on OK, I'm going to
19:19
the Uris tour and seeing all the amazing outfits and costumes and
19:23
the friendship bracelets, really fighting that urge within myself
19:26
to buy into all of it. Like, obviously I've bought into
19:29
some of it. I made like 20 friendship
19:31
bracelets and it really was a reflection on what it was like
19:35
to, internally as a fan, struggle with, you know, the
19:40
environmental impact that this might have.
19:43
There was a lot of private support, actually, for the
19:45
newsletter I received a heap of emails, DMS, like people were
19:48
texting me saying, Oh my God, thank you for writing this.
19:51
I've also been thinking about things and like, grappling with
19:54
it myself. So thank you for putting it into
19:57
words. But they were all people who
19:59
were saying I would never talk about this publicly because I'm
20:04
scared of the backlash or being criticized or being considered
20:07
like, branded as a hater, which obviously none of us are.
20:10
We're fans, yeah. The public, I should say the
20:14
public support for it. There were a lot of people who
20:18
engaged with the newsletter who liked the social posts that we
20:21
did about, who liked the social posts that we did about the
20:23
newsletter and left really supportive comments.
20:26
But there was also a very vocal rejection of the idea that we
20:31
should do any self reflection of the way we participate in the
20:34
Swifty fandom at all, or do any kind of critical thinking when
20:39
it comes to the waste or the excess assumption that the era
20:43
tour is kind of like connected with.
20:45
The overwhelming theme of that criticism was that we should
20:49
just let girls be girls, let girls have fun.
20:52
And even if that enjoyment or that fun is destructive, that no
20:57
critique could be tolerated because the most important thing
21:01
is for girls to have fun, we are not going to think about
21:04
anything else. That was really the underlying
21:06
theme of, like, all the backlash that we got, which was it was
21:11
wild. It was really wild to read
21:14
because I'm a fan and I implicated myself in
21:17
participating. It.
21:18
I wasn't saying what you guys are doing is crazy.
21:21
I don't do that. I was saying I do it too.
21:23
Yes. I think people take what they
21:25
want from what they consume when it comes to if they feel they're
21:29
part of a fandom like this and they are completely glossing
21:34
over or ignoring the fact that you're saying like, I'm doing
21:36
this too, I'm going to eras, I made friendship bracelets, you
21:39
know, this is a self reflection. It reminds me again of the
21:44
Barbie discourse. Any slight analysis of the
21:48
Barbie movie? That was not positive.
21:50
I was part of that too. With the Barbie movie, I was
21:52
like any little bit of criticism.
21:54
I was like, fuck off, you just don't get it, 'cause I love the
21:56
Barbie movie. So I get it.
21:57
I'm part of the problem too. But I think that reminds me,
22:00
like the backlash around your newsletter reminds me so much of
22:03
that. Like no room for critical
22:05
analysis. Women have had it really
22:07
difficult. Our, And that's part of it.
22:09
Like our interests are always trivialized.
22:11
So, like, let me be a fangirl. Yeah, absolutely.
22:13
And there was a real theme within some of the comments,
22:16
some of the backlash around this as well, of kind of pointing to
22:20
men's hobbies and like to bring it back to sport.
22:22
As we were talking about before saying, well, you know, why
22:25
don't we do this to men's hobbies?
22:27
Why don't we criticize this to sport and men's hobbies, which
22:30
is crazy because we're in media, we're online in the media and
22:34
online discourse. Sport is criticized all the
22:38
time, as it as it should be. There was this real idea that we
22:42
never ask men to self reflect on how they participate in the
22:47
things that they enjoy, but I don't agree with that.
22:50
I think we ask men to do that all the time now.
22:53
And if we're going to ask men to critically think about the
22:56
environmental impact or the way that sports or other things
22:59
contribute to toxic masculinity, if we're going to ask them to do
23:02
that, then we should also do it When it comes to the things that
23:05
we love, too, I feel like that's only fair.
23:08
Yeah, I guess it's because people feel like men have gone
23:10
unchecked, unchecked for so long and they've been allowed to like
23:13
sports and be super fans of sports teams or whatever they're
23:17
super fans of. And it is only now starting to
23:21
become like socially acceptable to be a fangirl.
23:25
Like, honestly, eras I think is going to be a turning point for
23:29
the perception of a fangirl. I think actually the Women's
23:32
World Cup. Oh yeah.
23:33
Last year probably that came in like the year of the Barbie
23:36
movie 2. So I think those things really
23:38
started to build this like environment where letting big
23:43
groups of women express their joy at whatever it is they
23:47
wanted to enjoy was like very much welcomed.
23:50
We had a really rough 4-5 years in the country and in the world,
23:55
and I think that is where this impulse to shut down any
23:59
perceived criticism is coming from, because it's like we just
24:01
want to have fun and this is a moment that girls can have fun
24:04
in, yeah. I had a similar, not like the
24:07
level of backlash that you received, of course, because I
24:10
was just posting on my own personal story.
24:11
It's just being like, I'm going to Taylor Swift.
24:13
So basically Crystal and I are going tonight with a brand.
24:17
And so I posted that, they sent us the tickets, and I was like,
24:20
this is literally the best PR box I've ever received.
24:22
And I had so many DMS from people Being like, that is so
24:26
ironic that you've been you're going to be sent by a brand to
24:29
Taylor Swift when you just, like criticized her upcoming album
24:33
'cause I had posted what's it called?
24:34
Poets. Oh, the tortured poets
24:38
department. Yeah, Tortured.
24:40
Yeah. Tortured Poets department.
24:42
Tortured the tortured poets, Dead society.
24:44
Something like that, I had posted on my stories when she
24:48
announced that. Just saying, it kind of feels
24:49
like this is too soon. Like it feels like there's we're
24:53
getting too much content all at once.
24:54
And I understand the rerecords are different than completely
24:57
new albums, but it just feels like she's being overexposed
25:00
right now. And you know, we've talked about
25:02
overexposure in celebrities on this podcast many times.
25:05
That's a very dangerous place to be, and Taylor has already
25:09
copped so much horrible media attention and harassment from
25:14
the media over her career. And like, we're just at a
25:16
dangerous point where it's people are going to start
25:18
charting on her because she's she's.
25:19
Been here before. Yes, totally because she's being
25:21
too overexposed. So that's kind of what I meant
25:24
by saying like this feeling content farm.
25:25
This is like too soon. We need more space between
25:28
albums and I guess everybody read that.
25:30
Me sharing an opinion as like I am anti Taylor Swift.
25:34
And I'm sure that you know, of course we've spoken critically
25:36
about Taylor Swift on this podcast before, but I have never
25:39
once said I'm not a Swifty. I listen to her music all the
25:41
time. She's always in my top Spotify
25:43
artists. I'm going to the era's tour
25:45
obviously tonight, but also tomorrow on my own with a friend
25:47
like I am in the fandom. And I thought it was so
25:50
interesting that the reaction from people, and a lot of people
25:54
that I know, like that are my friends in real life, couldn't
25:58
grapple with the fact that, like, I could be critical of her
26:00
over what I feel like is too much music all at once too close
26:05
together, Especially with Aristor in the middle to, you
26:09
know, that means you hate Taylor Swift and you don't.
26:12
You can't like her. Those two things can't exist at
26:14
once. Yes, I do have a theory about
26:17
why that's happening so much right now.
26:20
And something I was criticized for on the other side in the
26:23
newsletter was saying that this, like, trend of excess
26:26
consumption is not even necessarily being driven by
26:29
Taylor Swift herself. Like, she is not saying come to
26:33
the Iris store in your costume, make sure you make friendship
26:35
bracelets. These are fan projects.
26:37
These are things that we decided to ourselves.
26:39
I did cop some some heat for exempting her from
26:42
responsibility. Yeah, not as much.
26:44
But like a little bit of people saying, like, no, she does
26:47
encourage a lot of consumption. And I think that is definitely
26:50
true. Like, I'm happy to take that
26:51
feedback, but I think the very strong reaction to any perceived
26:56
or real criticism or like quote UN quote hate of Taylor is being
27:01
driven by how exploitative the media has been in the past 12
27:08
months. They've really just absolutely
27:11
hammered her name for clicks like in Australia at the moment.
27:15
Obviously there's been a really big build up to Errors tour here
27:17
because we haven't had a Taylor Swift concert here in a really
27:20
long time. It is wall to wall, Taylor Swift
27:25
inserted into every piece of like media, TV, radio, print,
27:31
digital, podcasts. We're obviously a part of that
27:35
too. But I understand that, like, the
27:37
media is just really riding on her name right now.
27:41
It is. It is outrageous.
27:43
Some of the ways that her name is being used is so unnecessary.
27:47
There was a cross, a live cross on multiple broadcast like TV
27:53
news stations when Travis Kelsey's jet was landing in
27:56
Sydney. That did not need to be on the
27:58
TV news. Like it's just not a thing that
28:00
needed to happen. But my favorite was a piece by
28:04
the Guardian. So Taylor Swift ate out at a
28:06
restaurant in Sydney like, wow, Oh my gosh, the girl eats.
28:10
It happened to be nearby the Guardian Australia's offices.
28:15
And so they wrote a story that the headline of this piece was
28:18
Scoop Taylor Swift Eats in Restaurant.
28:21
And we missed the story. And literally, this is the
28:25
opening of the piece. It takes less than a minute to
28:27
walk from Guardian Australia's office to Pellegrino 2000A tiny
28:31
Italian restaurant in Sydney, Surrey Hills.
28:33
So it could be safely assumed that when Taylor Swift dined at
28:36
the eatery on Tuesday evening, it would be well documented by
28:39
our crack team. Or not.
28:41
The whole piece was just the fact that she ain't near where
28:44
their office was and they didn't know about it.
28:47
So I understand that if you are not necessarily a fan of Taylor
28:52
Swift, this amount of just like over the top coverage is so
28:57
annoying. Yeah, if you're not into it,
28:59
this really does feel like she's being forced on your throat.
29:01
Yeah. And so if you're not a fan, that
29:03
is prompting some very strong reactions to her and kind of
29:07
blaming her for what the media is doing with her name.
29:10
And that's creating in turn a really tense dynamic between
29:13
fans and non fans because the non fans are going, we're sick
29:16
of hearing about it, Shut up, Not everybody cares about Taylor
29:19
Swift, her music's shit, blah, blah, blah.
29:22
All of these things which may or may not be true.
29:24
And the fans defensively are saying you're just being a
29:28
hater, you don't understand. And so it's really, it's
29:30
creating a toxic dynamic. But she hasn't necessarily
29:34
contributed to that herself. It's really been a media pylon
29:37
that's creating this very yucky environment.
29:41
Yeah, totally. And then it's Swifties or fans
29:43
deciding if you have any because of this, because of this
29:47
dynamic, if you have any critical thought around Taylor
29:50
Swift at the moment that you're just a hater, like you don't
29:54
understand, you're not part of. Us and it's a real knee jerk
29:56
reaction and pre emptive too. Like even if it's just a
29:59
headline it might not even be that people are reading the
30:02
stories. I mean, that happens on all
30:04
kinds of topics all the time, but there is a real knee jerk
30:07
reaction to saying that's not what she's like, that's not what
30:10
her music is about, that's not what she stands for and not
30:13
engaging any further than to just shut down the criticism.
30:16
Yeah, 100%. Well, on to more about Taylor
30:20
Swift fans. While Swifty's are certainly a
30:24
more powerful fandom the most, the dynamics of a fan base and
30:27
how that fan base protects their fan object is quite uniform.
30:31
We've discussed the culture of toxic fandoms and even the
30:34
concept of famous fans in previous episodes, so we won't
30:38
go too in depth here. But first, let's differentiate
30:41
between a fan and someone who is in a fandom.
30:45
A fan is someone who consumes content, enjoys the content and
30:49
leaves it at that. They could be a fan of a
30:52
creator's content ATV show, a movie franchise, or an artist's
30:56
music, but they will not go deeper than surface level
30:58
enjoymentfundamentals.com defines A fandom as quote a
31:04
group of more involved fans who invest time in analyzing it and
31:08
generating content from it. From blog posts to think pieces
31:12
to fan fiction or fan art, these fans also tend to seek
31:15
interaction with the people involved with the stories.
31:18
They tweet. They write, open letters they
31:20
attend and create conventions. It's subculture.
31:23
OK, so based on that, we're both actually in the Swifty fandom?
31:25
Yeah, I think we are. We create a lot of content
31:27
around her for our own publications.
31:29
We do, but I it would be interesting to think about
31:33
whether we would do that if we didn't run media businesses.
31:36
Yeah, true. No, I wouldn't.
31:37
No. So maybe.
31:38
Maybe we're, maybe I would. I feel like I would.
31:41
Reddits. Yeah, yeah.
31:43
The biggest difference between a fan and being part of a fandom
31:46
is how your interest in a celebrity, influencer or piece
31:49
of media impacts your identity. People that become part of a
31:53
fandom make that part of their identity, and thus being a fan
31:57
is this one thing that becomes like a part of your life, almost
32:00
like a hobby. The culture around Era's tour is
32:04
interesting though, because it feels like it's turned a lot of
32:07
general fans into members of the fandom, as this specific tour
32:11
almost has its own subculture. Like one of the things Pierce,
32:14
who's loyal listener, love you girl.
32:17
She messaged me when I posted my tickets, being like, Oh my God,
32:19
do you understand what the show is about?
32:21
Like, do you understand the culture around this show?
32:23
Because she thought that I wasn't like a huge fan.
32:26
And I would thought that was such an interesting question
32:29
because it made me reflect on the fact that, like going to
32:31
eras, there are these little things that are that kind of set
32:34
you apart as you know, you're just there for the event or
32:37
you're there because of Taylor. And I think most people, even if
32:41
they were just general, like hot surface level fans, are trying
32:45
to lean in a little bit more, 'cause you don't want to get
32:47
left behind, yeah. I think about it a little bit
32:49
different actually. I feel like the Iris tour is,
32:52
you know, it's like then the lights coming on at the end of
32:55
the night in the nightclub and you think that it's just like
32:57
you and a small group of people who you've been interacting with
33:00
that are left in this club and the lights come on and you're
33:02
like, oh shit, there's a lot of people still in here.
33:04
It's been really revealing how big her fandom actually is and
33:09
how everyday fans are still quite engaged with the law and
33:15
the Easter eggs and, you know, the history.
33:18
Even though they are not necessarily making tik toks
33:20
about it or, you know, participating in the threads
33:23
about it or having those discussions or generating that
33:25
content in the way that I guess a fandom is defined, they are
33:28
still very involved. Just because they haven't been
33:31
vocal about it doesn't mean that they were never there and that
33:34
they haven't been there from the beginning because this is such a
33:37
big moment. It's such a celebratory moment
33:40
in her career. It's brought all of the fans
33:42
kind of, like out of the woodwork.
33:44
Not that they were hiding, but like, we just had other shit to
33:46
do. Yeah, yeah.
33:48
Yeah, I actually. Yeah, I agree with that.
33:50
I guess then that begs the question, like, is there such
33:53
thing as a casual Taylor Swift fan when she can get all of
33:58
these casual fans? In theory though, to spend so
34:01
much money and to engage in all of the things like the
34:04
friendship bracelets and whatever.
34:05
Like I would have considered myself a casual fan before this,
34:08
but now I'm like, OK, I guess I'm a swifty.
34:10
Yeah, I guess so. I don't know.
34:12
I I do think it's hard to analyse that fairly from
34:15
Australia because we don't necessarily get as many big gigs
34:19
and big concerts all the time. So I think from, you know, like
34:22
an A pack perspective, but also like perhaps Europe, perhaps
34:26
South America, this is a big opportunity and there is a
34:30
sense, I think, that it's going to be a long time between big
34:33
shows, you know what I mean? So everyone's kind of keen to go
34:36
all out because it might be the last one for a long time.
34:40
It might be the last one that, you know, a mother goes to with
34:43
a daughter who's like 10 or 11. You know, the next time around
34:46
the daughter's probably going to go on her own with her own with
34:48
her own friends in like 10 years time.
34:50
So I do think it's hard to, yeah, get a good read on that
34:54
from Australia. Yeah, fair enough.
34:56
I also think that there's a tendency in media, and we
34:59
definitely contribute to this, to focus on only the really,
35:03
really intense, extreme examples of fandom when the reality is
35:08
this is a huge group of people. The bulk of people are
35:12
participating this in like a normal healthy.
35:15
Way. Yes.
35:16
Yeah. I mean even my friends who I
35:18
would consider Swifties are like normal about it I hope.
35:21
Unless I find out how they're like they have like burner
35:24
accounts and they're like commenting and shit on Reddit
35:26
and stuff. But you know what I mean?
35:27
Like as far as I know, even my most die hard swifty friends are
35:31
like normal. Yes, including you.
35:34
Including me. So media psychologists suggest
35:38
that the stigmatization of fandoms leads people to
35:41
internalize acceptable and unacceptable ways of being a
35:44
fan. There are two main ways that
35:46
they internalize this number One, they turn inward and police
35:50
their fandoms. So this includes bullying, other
35:53
fans with abuse, purity tests, and at the most extreme,
35:56
antisocial behaviors like threats to other fans.
36:00
The second is that they project this onto the entity that they
36:03
are a fan of, like the celebrity, the influencer, the
36:05
writers of their favorite TV show, which often manifests as
36:09
entitled behavior and requests. So it's these behaviors where we
36:14
get the term toxic fandom from. And this is a label that is
36:17
often placed on Swifties. Although I would say the
36:19
Swifties are not so much engaging in #2, they're not so
36:23
much going and directing their toxicity towards Taylor.
36:26
It's more so within the fandoms and the people outside of the
36:29
fandoms. In broad terms, a toxic fandom
36:32
is a buzzy term used mostly by media to identify pop culture
36:36
and Internet culture fans that engage in negative or
36:39
unacceptable behavior in association with their fandom.
36:42
This can include gatekeeping, entitled behavior, and doxing or
36:46
harassing those who criticize their fan object.
36:49
Sasha Simlaal For The Conversation, argues that shame
36:53
is an integral part of the Swifty fandom and why they have
36:56
become such a powerful and tight knit community.
37:00
This isn't totally unique to Taylor Swift's fandom.
37:03
This shame is present throughout fandoms for pop stars.
37:06
More broadly, as pop music is typically associated with young
37:09
women, being the fan of a pop star is considered immature,
37:13
unserious or lacking in taste and as a result fans become
37:17
protective of their fandom. So the toxic behaviors we see
37:20
sometimes from the Swifty fandom arguably operates from the
37:24
outside in. Swifties are shamed for liking a
37:27
girly pop star who makes unserious or juvenile music, and
37:32
this shame leads them to retreat further into the fandom as a
37:37
safe space. This safe space fosters an even
37:40
deeper connection with their fan community and Taylor herself,
37:43
and they become protective of this safe space, and the
37:47
toxicity we see from really hardcore fandoms like the
37:50
Swifties manifests from this protectiveness.
37:54
As Nina Yadav writes for The Swaddle quote, the genesis of
37:57
this overzealous defense that can be traced to a history of
38:00
mistreatment faced by women. Historical parallels with the
38:04
cult like devotion to figures like Princess Diana and Taylor
38:07
Swift, white women dearly loved by the masses, reveals that when
38:11
media mistreatment occurs, it triggers A savior complex in
38:15
those who perceive it as a personal affront.
38:17
The mistreatment transforms into a personal crusade for those
38:21
whose sense of purpose is deeply rooted in the public existence
38:24
of these icons and some recent examples of the Swifty's
38:28
engaging in toxic behavior. In 2020, Swifty's doxed
38:33
Pitchfork critic Jillian Maps for giving folklore an 8 out of
38:36
10, causing the Metacritic score to drop from 89 to 90.
38:42
Despite Mape's positive review, where she compared Taylor to
38:45
Jane Eyre and previous Pitchfork reviews comparing her to Joni
38:49
Mitchell, she faced death threats and harassment for
38:53
giving folklore an 8 out of 10. Another critic, Chris Pinella,
38:57
received death threats, homophobic slurs, accusations of
39:01
being a pedophile and more for critiquing the aristor, again in
39:06
a largely positive piece which outlined very few issues.
39:11
Yeah, toxic. Yeah.
39:14
So it can be very toxic in here, guys.
39:17
I mean, as a folklore girly, I think that album is perfect.
39:22
It's an 11 out of 10. It's an 11 out of 10 for me.
39:24
If it was an 8 out of 10 for Jillian, that's fine.
39:28
But I think, you know, like we were saying, there is always
39:30
going to be these outlier individuals within the group
39:33
that are engaging in these dangerous, like this is
39:37
dangerous behaviour that then ends up branding the bulk of the
39:41
group even though there is, I mean she has millions and
39:45
millions and millions of fans around the world.
39:48
This is not representative of the bulk, but that's what we'll
39:51
say reported. On Yeah, including here on
39:54
infinite scroll. OK, so how do Swifties project
39:59
their protection of the fandom and of Taylor Swift?
40:03
We have a few different theories here.
40:05
The 1st is through infantilizing Taylor Swift and this kind of
40:10
goes hand in hand with how kind of quirky and weird Taylor is,
40:14
just as a girly herself. So, similar to Selena Gomez and
40:18
other female pop stars that we watched grow up in the
40:20
spotlight, Swifty's infantilized Taylor.
40:23
This is probably partly because the Swifties feel like many of
40:26
Taylor's songs speak to their own experiences of girlhood, and
40:30
also partly because Taylor remained relatively conservative
40:34
and not over sexualized in her early career.
40:36
She has always kind of felt like the girl next door, and Taylor
40:40
is just kind of, like I said, quirky and weird, which makes
40:43
her relatable to so many girls and women around the world.
40:47
Despite her unprecedented fame and success, Taylor does not
40:50
feel untouchable or otherworldly like other pop stars in her
40:55
stratosphere feel. For someone so famous, who has
40:59
to interact with new people and other famous people and very
41:02
impressive people all the time, she still has that awkwardness
41:07
that you felt as a preteen when you didn't really know how to
41:12
interact with adults that you weren't very familiar with, that
41:15
you felt awkward to meet new people and new friends.
41:17
She exhibits some of those behaviours still.
41:19
Even now that she's, you know, a fully grown adult woman who is
41:23
in full command of her sphere, the peak of her industry, she's
41:27
still just an awkward little preteen at heart.
41:30
And that's what people relate to.
41:31
But I think it's that relatability that fuels the
41:34
constant comparisons. And they inhabit that more
41:37
traditional celebrity role because they haven't had that
41:41
one to one contact with their fans for at this point, like
41:46
almost 20 years. Yeah, 100%.
41:49
And Taylor has also been perceived as a perpetual
41:52
underdog by her fandom since the beginning of her career, and has
41:56
lent into that reputation with songs like You Belong With Me
41:59
and Look What You Made Me Do. Critics have long been irritated
42:03
by this narrative about Taylor claiming she likes to play quote
42:06
UN quote the victim. So Constance Grady for Vox
42:09
writes quote the video of her first single off reputation.
42:13
Look What You Made Me Do, concluded with a lineup of
42:15
Swift's spouting the most common critiques of Taylor Swift at
42:18
each other. Her surprised face is annoying,
42:21
and she constantly plays the victim.
42:24
The subtext was clear. Taylor Swift knows that some
42:26
people don't like her, and she knows why.
42:29
And she wants to be very clear that she doesn't like them
42:32
either, and that for the record, none of the bad things she's
42:35
done are actually her fault. It's all stuff that someone else
42:37
made her do. Similarly of the reputation era,
42:41
NPR Music said, quote, she squandered that chance to play
42:44
the villain. She'd rather be the victim,
42:46
which is a stale posture for her by now.
42:49
Kind of savage. A little bit sassy then.
42:53
Yeah. And of course, Taylor has
42:54
received her fair share of mistreatment from the media and
42:57
the music industry at large in her earlier career, particularly
43:01
when we consider the 2009 VM as which we will get into in a
43:06
minute. However, Taylor is not the
43:09
underdog anymore. Yes, she is still mistreated in
43:12
the media and her name is exploited to death for clicks
43:15
and views. And of course, as we mentioned
43:17
before, we are participating in that right now too.
43:20
But Taylor has become one of the highest selling music artists of
43:23
all time, and as of 2023, she is now the richest female musician
43:28
and the first billionaire in history.
43:31
With music as the main source of income.
43:34
Quote, She's up there among the greatest of music legends and
43:37
has cemented her legacy as a formidable, culturally Evergreen
43:40
artist, writes Yadav. Taylor Swift today is a
43:44
phenomenon as much as she is an artist.
43:46
The question then arises, does that make any critique of her
43:50
work invalid or illegitimate? The best explanation I've seen
43:55
of this concept that someone very, very successful can still
43:59
kind of like play the underdog is an outline essay from 2019
44:04
called A Decade of Soul Winners. It is one of my favorite pieces
44:08
of writing and cultural criticism maybe ever.
44:12
It's so good. And it doesn't just focus on
44:14
Taylor Swift, although it looks at her quite a lot, but applies
44:17
that concept more broadly to culture and politics.
44:19
I'll just read a little bit from it in the piece BD Mcclay
44:23
writes, the sore winner operates in a shrinking world.
44:26
There's less and less of everything, and there's nothing
44:28
to do about it except win. So if you want to go on winning
44:31
without becoming an asshole, you need some way to always identify
44:34
something bigger than you are, something holding you back.
44:37
The sore winner wants a claim, but not responsibility.
44:40
Respect without disagreement, wealth without scrutiny, power
44:44
without anyone noticing. It's there.
44:45
It's a delicate line to walk, but it's not impossible.
44:49
Examples of sore winners that Mcclay gives in his piece
44:52
include Donald Trump, Marvel fans and really superhero or
44:57
comic book fans in general, and also the directors of Marvel
45:01
films who are angry at Martin Scorsese for not loving their
45:04
work. Oh my God.
45:05
Adult gifted children, which I feel very called out by.
45:09
Adult gifted so children who are gifted as adults now who are
45:13
grown up child. Who are now grown New York Times
45:16
columnists who I think would probably overlap quite a lot
45:19
with the adult gifted children and most billionaires and tech
45:22
platform CEO's. A. 100%.
45:25
Taylor Swift and her fans fall very easily into this category,
45:29
Mcclay writes. She never really got the respect
45:31
she deserved for writing her own songs and playing her own
45:34
guitar, or carefully managing a crossover from country to pop
45:37
without alienating her old fans. But at $360 million, at what
45:43
point are we dealing with what amounts to small change?
45:46
At what point is it fair to say that Swift won, even if that
45:50
winning does not come with universal adoration and
45:54
approval? And it's never going to.
45:56
There's always going to be people that don't like you.
45:58
I think that's kind of what Doctor Georgia Carroll was
46:02
saying in her recap of her thesis.
46:06
And her research was that Taylor Swift and Taylor Nation, the
46:11
brand behind Taylor Swift, is so obsessed with being liked.
46:18
Like there is just this intrinsic need for her to still
46:21
be this people pleaser. And that's why they reward fans
46:25
constantly for being the right fans, the biggest fans, things
46:29
like that. Because a lot of the behaviors
46:31
that we're seeing are can be not, like, toxic necessarily,
46:36
but a bit exploitative sometimes of the fandom.
46:39
Oh, absolutely. Like she is basically
46:42
surveilling them, right? I saw in the comment section of
46:46
a critical TikTok that was talking about the the politics
46:49
of Taylor Swift and whether or not she doesn't enough.
46:51
Of course there were heaps of fans that were defending her, as
46:54
is their prerogative. They're allowed to do that.
46:56
And someone had commented in reply to a Swifty saying, she's
47:01
not going to see this, she's not going to pick you.
47:03
She might. She might.
47:05
They do look at what Swifty's are writing about her online.
47:09
They do identify individual fans, send them handwritten
47:14
letters, invite them to shows, send them gifts.
47:18
It's real. Yeah, she you might actually get
47:20
picked. It's putting the fear of Taylor
47:23
Swift in them, like the fear of God, the fear of Taylor Swift
47:27
like Big Brother. In an already very intense
47:30
surveillance culture, which maybe is another episode you can
47:33
do another day. Not for today.
47:36
The origin story of Swift as this idea of a sore winner and a
47:40
perpetual underdog, no matter how successful she gets, really
47:44
does trace back to the 2009 VMA's and the I'm a let you
47:48
finish. I'm really happy for you.
47:50
I'm let you finish, but Beyoncé had one of the best videos of
47:53
all time controversy and the continued antagonization that
47:58
Kanye did towards Swift for quite some time afterwards.
48:02
He actually sings about her, put her in his new song I Saw This
48:07
Morning. OK, so we're like 15 years on at
48:09
this point. It's it's still going.
48:11
So a lot of this self victimhood does kind of trace back to this
48:16
moment, which is why we kicked off the episode there.
48:20
And look, I think we should say it was an objectively mean and
48:24
unfair thing for Kanye to do to Swift, who at that time was very
48:28
young and she was a very new artist.
48:30
You can't think of her now as the superstar in that position.
48:34
She was a young girl who was just breaking out of the safe
48:37
space of country into the broader mainstream pop culture
48:40
for the first time. It would have been terrifying.
48:43
I would not have handled. It any form.
48:45
Writer Sean O'Neill told Billboard.
48:49
Quote, whatever fun there was to be had in this spontaneous
48:51
moment of a famously unabashed jerk behaving like one, then
48:56
writing an ALL CAPS rant about it was pretty short lived.
48:59
Almost immediately, it became this flashpoint for discussion
49:02
on race, on sexism, on attitudes towards pop music, on mental
49:05
health. This, as well as the very sexist
49:08
and demeaning media coverage of Swift's music, not only up until
49:12
that point, but after that point for a very long time, as being
49:16
just about her exes would become the ultimate shield against any
49:20
criticism of Taylor Swift or her music.
49:23
Even when the criticism is being done in good faith, fans will
49:25
say it's just coming from haters who, like Kanye, are angry at
49:29
Swift's success for no good reason.
49:32
When I say that this moment was so pivotal, not just for Taylor
49:36
Swift and her career, but for so many people who were in
49:40
attendance and won awards at the 2009 VMAs, I really, really mean
49:44
it. For the next 15 years, Kanye,
49:46
Taylor and Beyoncé have all remained really characterized by
49:50
the roles that they played in this particular moment.
49:52
So Kanye, as we know, continued on as this really unpredictable
49:57
agitator. Not just a tailor, but to a
50:00
bunch of other people and artists within the industry and
50:03
in general pop culture and entertainment.
50:05
Taylor would continue to be the victim of a male dominated
50:08
culture that wanted to undercut her success and her salience
50:12
with young women. And Beyoncé would continue to be
50:15
the gracious star who was being held to an even higher standard
50:19
than everybody else. It really did not change ever
50:22
since that moment. It's like these caricatures that
50:25
they've become now. Yes, there was no getting out of
50:29
that and it's almost like fate. I was saying this to you before.
50:31
I'm not a super woo woo type of person, but it's like all of
50:35
their stories were always going to converge at this point and
50:38
everything that was going to happen after that point
50:41
happened. It all played out exactly as it
50:43
was always going to. Yeah.
50:45
And want to make clear, us exploring the 2009 VM as and how
50:49
it was actually so culturally impactful is not us saying that
50:53
Kanye made Taylor famous like that is not what we're saying
50:56
here. But I think that often that
50:58
criticism that that's like the counter argument that Taylor
51:02
Swift fans have to anybody exploring what happened on that
51:06
stage is like, well, you just want Kanye to you just you're
51:09
just giving Kanye the credit for Taylor Taylor Swift's success.
51:12
Because that's obviously what he has tried to say over and over
51:15
again in his music. And it's not that, that's not
51:18
what we're saying. We just think that this
51:20
particular award show genuinely did change the way that pop
51:25
culture has functioned in entertainment.
51:27
And of course, thus Taylor's career, like Eris Tour, would
51:30
not exist without this moment. Yes, let me tell you why.
51:36
So this award show was actually the catalyst for a chain of
51:40
events that ultimately would give us the very concept of
51:44
Taylor's version rerecords and the concept of eras of her
51:48
music. Because the VMA's.
51:51
I couldn't believe it when I uncovered this.
51:54
They essentially launched Scooter Braun's mainstream
51:58
record label slash Artist Management Career, which as we
52:02
know this leads to the second major moment of underdog triumph
52:06
for Taylor which was being denied her masters and having to
52:10
re record the first six albums as Taylor's versions from 2002.
52:15
Scooter had been working with so so def recordings in like a
52:18
marketing capacity. So he was really overseeing all
52:21
of their events and parties and he left that role because he
52:24
wanted to get more into the talent management side of things
52:27
and the music publishing side of things and he wasn't kind of
52:30
like getting those opportunities.
52:31
He couldn't crack out of just the marketing and the party
52:33
side. So he left, did some travelling
52:36
with his brother, took some time to figure it out.
52:38
In 2007, a college student and aspiring artist called Asha Roth
52:43
reached out to Scooter on Myspace and asked if he would
52:46
represent him. Scooter decides to go for it.
52:49
Asha is his first signing, and just a few months after that he
52:52
also signs Justin Bieber and he decides to build a business plan
52:56
around just these two artists. He knows that they've got enough
52:59
money to operate for 14 months, so they're just going to make a
53:02
bunch of singles. They're going to rely really
53:04
heavily on making music videos and see if anything cuts through
53:08
to the mainstream, See if they can crack it.
53:10
According to an interview with Billboard, at month 13 of this
53:15
14 month runway that they had, Asher records the song I Love
53:20
College and with Scooter Braun they make a video clip for it.
53:24
The song is released in January 2008.
53:27
It becomes a hit and it ultimately gets nominated for
53:30
two awards at the 2009 MTVVMAI didn't know this song.
53:37
I I think it maybe it was more of a North American thing.
53:40
I don't remember it. But you said that it was really,
53:42
really big when you. Were yeah, we loved it.
53:45
We would sing it all the time. We'd play it all the time at
53:47
every single like kegger, every pre drink and it would just be
53:51
like it was like an anthem, like an an anthem, a love song and
53:55
ode to our time at university. Very party vibes.
53:58
Yes, it was. It was like LMFAO era.
54:01
It's nothing like LMFAO, but it's like that era of like an
54:03
ode to partying and you're like youth, you know?
54:06
And the crazy part of all of this is that Justin Bieber, who
54:09
often I think Justin is, talked about as being the catalyst that
54:13
like made Scooter Braun's career.
54:15
He didn't get the big signing onto Island Records until
54:19
October 2008. So that was like almost, you
54:22
know, that's like 10 months after I Love College came out
54:25
and Justin's first single didn't come out till mid 2009.
54:29
So if it wasn't for this like mainstream breakthrough and
54:33
success of I Love College scooter bronze artist management
54:37
business, it wouldn't have survived long enough to actually
54:40
get to the Justin Bieber point. He wouldn't have been able to
54:43
launch Justin like that because Justin wasn't ready.
54:46
So although we won't know exactly how everything would
54:48
have played out, it's entirely possible that he never would
54:51
have made it big enough to get to the position where he could
54:54
then, in 2019, buy Big Machine and buy Taylor's Masters.
55:00
That is just so wild. So basically, the moral of this
55:03
story is that Asher Roth is enemy number one for the
55:06
Swifties. Is he or is Asher Roth who who
55:10
we say thank you for eras and Taylor's version?
55:13
True, actually. It was like a domino that was
55:16
that was one of the first dominoes to fall that just set
55:19
off this chain of events, which has kind of led us to where we
55:23
are now and has LED us to the cultural environment that we're
55:26
in now, where I guess Swift fandom is so ubiquitous.
55:29
It's so everywhere. It's so universal.
55:32
It all really comes back to what happened at this one award show.
55:36
Yeah, that is so freaking wild. But I mean, that's kind of where
55:42
we're at now, right? Is there's a lot of emerging
55:45
discourse, which is part of this episode about the fact that, you
55:49
know, people are unable to critique one of the most famous,
55:54
if not the most powerful woman in pop culture in the at the
55:57
moment, at least in pop music, without severe consequence and
56:02
backlash. And what do we think that means
56:05
for the future of like, genuinely society?
56:09
It's a concern to me. I mean, we are in the media
56:11
business, so of course this is going to feel like a concern to
56:14
us. But pop culture is culture.
56:17
Culture is it's us as human beings.
56:20
It tells us about the societies that we build, about our
56:22
humanity. And I think that it's really
56:24
important that we're able to have critical discussions about
56:27
it, that we're able to discuss these things and what they mean
56:30
for us. Because if we can't do that
56:31
about the biggest pop star in the world right now, in this
56:36
particular moment, I think a lot of things start to fall apart
56:40
from there. We end up very siloed and not
56:42
able to have discussions that cut across groups and apply to
56:46
like bigger and bigger kind of like swathes of people.
56:49
Yeah, we need to stop with this mentality of, you know, just
56:52
being able to say one single thing like branding somebody a
56:55
hater or a troll or saying you just don't want girls to have
56:59
fun like these kind of like catch all slaps.
57:03
I don't know what the right word down.
57:05
Like shut. Yeah, like stamps that shut down
57:07
conversation. It's becoming so much more
57:10
common online. Yeah.
57:11
And, you know, like we were discussing before, I think if we
57:13
want other people to do this, if we want, you know, toxic
57:17
masculinity to be something that we examine and reflect on and
57:21
kind of like critique. If we want white supremacy to be
57:24
something that we critique, if we want religion to be something
57:27
that we critique, we have to be able to do it to the
57:30
comparatively lower stakes pop culture and entertainment
57:33
sphere. Like, if we can't do that, how
57:35
is it possible that we'd be able to handle conversations about
57:38
the biggest stuff? Exactly heavy.
57:43
Well, thank you guys so much for listening.
57:45
We are going to go to the ERA store now.
57:48
We're going to open our outfits and do our hair and get ready.
57:53
Infinite Scroll is a podcast written, produced and presented
57:56
by me at Lauren Meisner for Centennial World.
57:58
Additional research and reporting this week was by
58:00
Crystal Andrews. Thank you guys so much for
58:03
listening. I love you guys so much and I
58:06
will talk to you next week. Bye.