Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 51 - How Old is the Earth?

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Ep. 51 - How Old is the Earth? · Martyr's Row

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This week on Martyrs Row, were vegans created
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before the foundations of the earth? In the beginning,
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God created tofu? And Paul here claims to know
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how old the earth is. Not as old as your mom!
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Aww! Welcome to Martyrs Row! 3, 2, 1! Wow! That's
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gotta be it. That's gotta be it. Saint Philomena,
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a virgin devoted unto Christ from her youth,
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suffered in the persecution under Diocletian.
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Being of noble birth, she refused the advances
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of the emperor, declaring that she had already
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given herself unto a heavenly bridegroom. For
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this confession, she was cast into prison and
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grievously tormented. being scourged and afterward
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cast into the waters with an anchor about her
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neck. Yet the Lord preserved her for a time,
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and she continued steadfast in faith. At length
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the tyrant enraged that neither fear nor suffering
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could move her, commanded that she be slain with
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arrows, and so she yielded up her spirit unto
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God. Thus this young virgin weak in years yet
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strong in faith, overcame the cruelty of princes
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and obtained the crown prepared for those who
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love Christ more than life itself. Anno Domini,
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304. The Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem
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was first established in the 4th century under
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Emperor Constantine after his mother, Helena,
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helped identify and honor the site long revered
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as the place of Jesus' birth. The first basilica
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rose there in the 300s, and although that earlier
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structure was later destroyed, the church standing
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today is largely the 6th century rebuilding commissioned
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by Emperor Justinian. But what makes the Nativity
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Church so remarkable is not only who founded
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it, It is that it never became just a relic.
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UNESCO identifies it as the oldest Christian
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church in daily use, and that phrase matters.
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This is still an active worshiping church, governed
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under the historic status quo by the Greek Orthodox,
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Arminian Apostolic, and Roman Catholic communities.
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Liturgy's daily So the story of the Church of
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the Nativity is... Not simply that Constantine
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built it and Justinian restored it. The deeper
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story is that across 17 centuries of empire conflict
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and change, a real Christian congregation has
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never fully gone silent there. The lamps still
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burn, the clergy still serve, and the church
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still does what it was built to do, worship Christ.
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That's pretty cool. Yeah. So my quest was, what
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is the oldest built, currently still active Christian
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congregation? Yeah. And the funny thing is, because
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I've been to Israel and I've been to the Church
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of the Nativity, when I looked this up, I was
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like, wait, the church I went to was burned.
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But it's this stone structure. And so the inside,
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like the wood on the inside has been burned.
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Okay. But the congregation, that's the basilica
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that was burned. Oh, wow. On the inside. Yeah.
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But the congregation of the Church of the Nativity
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in Bethlehem is still an active church. That's
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pretty sick. It is cool. So what that means is
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essentially there is a Christian church that
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is still active in Bethlehem. Wow. That was established
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in the fourth century. or around 300, in the
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300s by Helena, who, if you go to Israel, there's
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churches on holy sites, and Helena's the one
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that did that. Oh, that's cool. Constantine's
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mom. That makes sense, yeah. It does, and it's
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also kind of problematic. Absolutely. Because
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they're not exactly... Constantine's problematic.
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Fair. But they're not exactly where you think
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that they should be. Oh. Like the Church of the
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Holy Sepulcher is this really cool church that
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has multiple stories to it. It has a bunch of
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different rooms in it. And in the center of it
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on the bottom floor is said to be where the tomb
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of Jesus was. Oh, interesting. And then the place
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of the crucifixion. So them being, sorry, not
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the tomb, but the place of the crucifixion. Okay.
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But the problem is it's inside the gates of the
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old city, in the old city of Jerusalem. And Roman
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crucifixion was historically pretty well documented
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that people would be crucified outside the city
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gates. First of all, so that there wouldn't be
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rotting corpses inside your city. Because that
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would stink. It would. But secondly, so that
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when people entered the city, they would have
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fear of the emperor. That makes more sense. Because
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crucifixion was a false messiah or a false someone
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who would rise up against the government. It
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would be their death is how they would die. And
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they're showing people coming in and it's like,
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hey, this is what we do to people who want to
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cause trouble. Yeah, like if you're going to
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rise up against the emperor, if you're going
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to cause an insurrection, then you're going to
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be out. outside the city on a stake. So that's
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what crucifixions were. But I thought that was
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really interesting. So the Church of the Nativity
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in Bethlehem is the longest running church that
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is still an active congregation. And it's cool
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because the Greek Orthodox, the Armenian Apostolic,
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and the Roman Catholic communities all kind of
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function out of those. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
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Or they at least share in the buildings themselves.
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And if you're ever in the old city, there's a
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market that's actually owned, the property is
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owned by the Greek Orthodox Church. Oh, wow.
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And so certain times of the day, all the lights
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shut off and the priests walk through with incense.
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And it's kind of creepy if you don't know what's
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going on. Yeah. But yeah, they're like blessing
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the... the space. Oh, that's cool. So it's, it's
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kind of interesting, but, um, but yeah, actually
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I think it happens on Saturdays. I think it's
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only one day a week, but, um, but yeah, so, so
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yeah. So the church of the nativity, so there's
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an active Christian Orthodox church in Bethlehem,
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which is currently a Palestinian, like that's
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like a Palestinian governed area. Um, that is
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an active Christian church that is the oldest
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active Christian church that would date back
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to Helena and Constantine's mother. Wow. So like
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the Christians in that area have been there basically
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since the church started. Which is, it's cool
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to think about that too. Yeah. Even just like
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the richness of that that we aren't always aware
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of. For sure. Which we talk about that all the
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time on this podcast. Yeah. But it's like, yeah,
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it dates back a while. It does. And there's things
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that are still running. And it's stayed consistent.
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Yeah. So through the generations, like it said
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17, right? 17 centuries of empire conflict, and
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yet that church in Bethlehem remains an active
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congregation. Which is amazing that even there
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it can stay consistent. For sure. Yeah. Through
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a lot. What you just said. Yeah. Because there's
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churches that don't have that in the U .S. Yeah,
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which is sad. They last half a generation. Yeah.
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Yeah, we should do better. Let's step it up.
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Let's get some conflict. So it does help. The
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church thrives in conflict historically. Yeah,
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that is true. I mean, Jesus said that they persecuted
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me. They're going to persecute you. Yeah. And
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if they don't, then you're probably with them.
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Yeah. Like if you're not suffering for the sake
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of Christ and being persecuted for being a Christian,
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then you're probably too conformed to the world
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to be recognized as a Christ follower. That cuts
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deep. Yeah. It's going to be more relevant in
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the days to come for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah,
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I think that's true. I think everywhere. But
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yeah. church congregation that is active is the
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church of the nativity and bethlehem in the heart
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of the world and if you're there on a saturday
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watch out three two one Granddaddy leaned back
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in the kitchen chair. Bible on the table, there
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was dust in the air. Said, boy, there's questions.
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Men all fight to know. He said, how old is the
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dirt? How old is the stone? How long's this world
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been spinning on? Some count years, some count
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stars, some read books while some read scars.
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But whether the days are long or short, it all
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comes back to the name of the Lord. And somewhere
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in the middle of the heat and smoke, People miss
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the weight of a holy hope. Cause the question
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ain't just when the world began. It's why God
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reached out his holy hand. Oh, why? Why God reached
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out his hand. Oh, why? My granddad said, how
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old is the dirt? It all comes back to the name
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of the Lord. Whether the days are long or short,
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it all comes back to the name of the Lord. I've
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become really good at snapping. I've noticed
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that. Yeah, I don't snap with my left hand though.
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Oh, I do. Oh, I can do both. Both? Three, two,
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one. You get two snaps. Sounds like there's four
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people. Oh, yeah. Well, you stagger them. That's
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kind of fun. Well, we don't normally wear headphones,
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so we're hearing it differently. What if it cuts
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every time we do that? That would be awesome.
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That would be a lot of editing, though. That
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would be fun. So, Paul, I think a lot. That's
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good. My brain just keeps going. Yeah. I've heard
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that's a good sign. Of what? Life? Like your
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brain. Oh, yeah. It still functions. It's a good
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mental sign. I've got one brain cell. He's bouncing.
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Depends on what time of day it is. I feel him
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on different sides of my brain sometimes. Oh,
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that's... There he is. But that's a different
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type of awareness that you would have. Oh, yeah.
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So, speaking of one brain cell. Yeah. You know,
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one of the things that I always... it always
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trips me up is there are all these things within
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the scientific field, in the theological field,
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pretty much in any theoretical field. And I say
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that because in the scientific field, there are
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things that are seemingly concrete that I just
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fully don't understand. And I feel like every
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time I look up a description of it, they also
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can't help me understand. Like, just trust me,
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bro. Well, like, one of the main things is something
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like carbon dating. Yeah. So carbon dating is
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based, like, it has to be organic material. So,
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like, I'm aware of that. Like, if you're carbon
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dating, you can only carbon date organic material.
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Yeah. And the problem with that is, like, metals,
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it's, like, impossible for them to carbon date.
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Oh, really? Yeah, which is weird because then
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does that mean metal is not organic material?
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I haven't really thought too much about that.
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I have no knowledge to tell you. Or it's too
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dense of organic material. It's too dense. We
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can't measure it. Something like that. I don't
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really understand. With carbon dating, people
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are like, we carbon dated it. We sent it to a
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lab and we did this thing. Then they tell you
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it's 50 million years old. You're like, that
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sounds a little bit like... you just stuck it
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in a machine and then it popped out a number
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50 million. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like,
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okay, so I don't know if you've done this or
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not, but I have like rabbit trailed and I don't
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know why, but I like these videos where people
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get packs of cards and they open them and then
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they do a reveal. Do you know what I'm talking
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about? I've never seen them, but I know what
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you're talking about. Okay. Yeah. So in the process
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of like doing that. you have uh some of them
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that they send them to get graded so it goes
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to a company that's cool yeah so it goes to a
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company and the company grades it and it's like
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like the main one is like psa grading and psa
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grading does like a scale to from zero to uh
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10 and 10 is like that's like what you want super
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valuable yeah and it's like really hard to get
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a 10 rating okay but it's also like you there's
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so many videos of people sending it and they
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get a nine and then they break the seal of the
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thing and they pull it out and they like clean
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the card. Then they send it back to try and get
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a 10. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So it's like you
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send the same exact card to the same company
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and you potentially get multiple different grades.
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That's fascinating. So there's like whole videos
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on YouTube about this. Like people are getting
16:06
multiple different grades or they'll be like,
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let me try to keep sending it back until I get
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the grade I want. That's fascinating. But then
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like carbon dating, what is that? Like no one
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is sending back like ancient wood. To get it
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regraded. And if they did and they grade it multiple
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times, it's probably going to show up multiple
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different answers. Yeah. The thing that I've
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always been curious about that too is like, what
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are you basing it on? That's my point. Yeah.
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Like no one really can explain that. Yeah. And
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that's like, what is the baseline? Yeah. Because
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you have to have some type of constant. Right.
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As far as what I know about basic science, there
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has to be some constant. Yeah. But what you're
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testing is a variable. Yeah, that's true. But
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you're testing it against a constant. Yeah. I
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mean, it's kind of like with rulers where it's
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like they have like, oh, this is the standard
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measurement. Correct. And it's locked up in a
16:59
cage somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like every
17:01
ruler is based off of this ruler. Oh. You know
17:04
what I mean? Is there an ultimate ruler? I think
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there is. No way. I think there actually is.
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So there's an ultimate ruler out there that every
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ruler is based off of? They're just like an inch,
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but they have it like in a cage somewhere, like
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in a glass box. It's like Fort Knox. Ooh, that
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is the inch. That is the measurement of it. It's
17:22
like the gold standard. It's like all the gold
17:24
that's actually in Fort Knox, but not really.
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But how do we know it's gold? Do we have gold
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to compare it to? So there's so many examples
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now. What if fool's gold is actually gold? But
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we've been fooled by it. Exactly. But that's
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the thing is like some guy told us something.
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Yeah. And at one point it was kind of true. Yeah.
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But then it was really just that expert. And
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there's so many of us that we just go like, yeah,
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I guess that's our standard. Yeah. Right. So
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that's the constant. Yeah. But going back to
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that, what's the constant time? Like what do
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they have? Is there an object that scientists
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have? Somebody answer this for me. Is there an
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object that scientists have that is the constant
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that all carbon dating is based against? Because
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if what you're dating is a variable, then there
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has to be a constant that it's being dated against,
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unless that's not how carbon dating works, and
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then it's not the scientific method. Yeah. Unless
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I'm just wrong, which I probably am. Which, yeah,
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very possible. I have no clue. So all of that
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being said, I really, really want to figure out
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what the constant is. Yeah. And what science
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says the constant is for this question. Okay.
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How old is the Earth? Oh, that's a good question.
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Because you feel like if we're dating objects,
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maybe what the constant is is the Earth itself.
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Yeah. Which that would make sense. But we'd have
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to know how old it is. Correct. Yeah. So how
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old is the earth, Paul? Oh, that's such a good
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question. You know, it's funny too, because I
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feel like there's, like you said, there's a lot
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of different approaches. There's like the scientific
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approach to it. Yeah. There's like the apologetic
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approach to it. Right. And then there's like
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the theological approach to it or the philosophical
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approach. Yeah. And it's like all of them trying
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to answer like the same kind of question. Right.
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And sometimes they're using the same, base measurement
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okay but they're pulling out different pieces
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of data and getting different answers yeah i
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mean you have like yeah and depending on who
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you are and where you came from and like what
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your background is and how you're reading the
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data it's all got to be slightly different right
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yeah so how old is the earth uh i'd say like
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two days two days well yeah so it's it's one
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of those where that's that idea of like um if
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i was born yesterday Yeah. If I was born yesterday,
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how old is the earth? It is as old as it is right
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now. It's a day older than you. I know it was
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here yesterday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or was it?
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I was born on the earth, I think. Am I here?
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Someone told me that I was born on the earth?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and they told me what
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place on the earth I was born. Well, we always
20:15
go back to that philosophical question is like,
20:19
can you prove that you exist? Yeah. And the fact
20:23
is, is like you cannot convince anybody that
20:25
you exist unless you create a standard of measure
20:28
by which to define existence. Yeah, and sometimes
20:34
it gets so... It's like, have you heard the question,
20:38
like, what makes a chair a chair? Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, for me, it's that same kind of idea. My
20:44
favorite one is what makes a sandwich a sandwich.
20:46
That is a great question. Is a hot dog a sandwich?
20:50
I mean, if you want it to be, I have no problem.
20:52
If you want it to be. I have no problem with
20:54
you calling your hot dog a sandwich. Hey, can
20:57
you bring my sandwich to me? You mean this hot
20:59
dog? It's my sandwich. Don't tell me what my
21:03
sandwich is called. Don't tell me what I can
21:06
and can't call my glizzies. Yeah, my hot dog
21:09
sandwich. Get it over here for me now. My hot
21:11
dog sandwich. But you see like a hot dog sandwich
21:16
would be like filleted like hot dogs. You have
21:19
a different picture in your head. 100%. Yeah.
21:23
But bring me my hot dog sandwich. And tell me
21:27
how old the earth is. At the same time while
21:29
you're at it. Well, yeah, so it's interesting
21:33
because we have like the, you know, it gets pitted
21:38
against each other, which we've talked about
21:40
this on another podcast, which is like the evolution
21:44
and creation because that's ultimately where
21:46
this goes to a lot of times. But I don't really
21:48
want to spend any time in there, to be honest,
21:49
because we're a Bible podcast. Yeah. So let's
21:52
just talk about the Bible. I like that. And there's
21:54
plenty of people talking about. evolution and
21:57
all of that stuff yeah and i i honestly i'm not
22:00
going to give an opinion one way or the other
22:02
because i don't know either okay and i think
22:06
as we go through this we'll kind of see that
22:08
a little bit um but so even so like the for me
22:14
the traditional like bible believer yeah would
22:17
say like oh the earth is six six thousand years
22:19
old right and uh that's That's where we're focused
22:24
on the Bible side. Actually, somebody the other
22:26
day was like, hey, isn't today the birthday of
22:30
the earth? And I said, what? It like broke my
22:34
brain for a second. Because I was like, happy
22:37
birthday. You're presupposing so many things.
22:41
I was just like, wait, where do I even begin
22:43
in my response to this question? Well, God created
22:46
the earth on January 1st. Well, I think my response
22:50
was like, If you want it to be? I guess it could
22:56
be. Yeah, happy birthday, Earth. I think, isn't
22:59
that what Earth Day is? I thought it was supposed
23:02
to be awareness, like taking care of the Earth.
23:04
I think so, but I think it's also like maybe
23:07
a solstice day. I don't know. That's possible,
23:10
yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that stuff.
23:12
So then where should we begin, Paul? Well, let's
23:16
start in the beginning. Okay. What? Good spot.
23:20
Yeah, well, so what I want to say first, because
23:22
I want to make all the 6 ,000 Bible believers
23:27
angry first. That's what I like to do. Okay.
23:29
I like to make people angry, then I like to talk
23:31
through my reasoning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if
23:34
you don't click away, you might be interested.
23:37
Right, which a couple episodes back. or last
23:40
episode, one of these episodes recently, we talked
23:43
about where Adam was born. Yes. And we kind of
23:46
hit on young earth creation. Yeah, we kind of
23:51
poked at it a little bit. Yeah, because there's
23:53
timelines that are, there are some that are very
23:57
clear. Yeah. And then some that are very not
23:59
clear. Yes. Yeah. And I think this is one that
24:04
when we look at what the text is saying, it's
24:05
very not clear. Yeah, I mean, I would agree with
24:08
that. Yeah, and I think part of it, so like the
24:11
way that we got to the 6 ,000 number was, I can't
24:16
remember the guy's name, some dude, some old
24:19
guy. John Drake? Yeah. No. Mr. Earth. Drake created
24:26
the dispensationalist theology. Oh, that's right.
24:29
Yeah, sorry. But he probably went down this path
24:31
too. Well, yeah. Typically, if you're a dispensationalist,
24:35
you would also believe in Young Earth. Yeah,
24:38
that follows. It's a cross on the pie chart.
24:42
I know that there's an exception, and the one
24:44
watching this who's mad is the exception. Yeah.
24:47
He's like, Drake's my dad. He's my dad. He's
24:51
my dad. Actually, comment. That's interesting.
24:54
I want to talk to you. Yeah, please be on the
24:56
podcast. That would be very interesting. You
24:58
would definitely be a guest. Yes. I feel like
25:04
his son has to be alive. Anyways, we should try
25:07
to figure that out and reach out. Yeah, that'd
25:09
be kind of cool. Dispensationalism is not that
25:11
old. No, it's pretty young. It's hard to say,
25:12
but it's not that old. It's young? It's pretty
25:15
young. Is it as young as the Earth? No, it's
25:17
a little older. I mean, a little younger. The
25:20
Earth is a little older. Wait. At least one day
25:24
older. Can we at least say this? Maybe. The Earth
25:27
precedes humanity. Yeah. Okay. I think we can
25:31
say that. I think so too. Yeah. I think the Bible
25:34
does say that. It definitely does. That actually,
25:39
it's explicit. Yeah. In Genesis 2. It's just
25:43
like, hey, by the way, things happen first. Yeah.
25:45
Yeah. But yeah, so basically they get that from
25:49
taking the genealogies and the numbers and they
25:52
just kind of added those together. Yeah. Like,
25:54
oh yeah, that's how old the earth is. Right.
25:56
And we're like, okay, cool, but you're assuming
25:57
a lot of things. Well, yeah, right. And what's
26:00
the first age that we get? They start with Adam.
26:05
And they're like, oh, how old was he when he
26:07
had? Who's they? The people that believe it's
26:10
6 ,000 years. No, you mean, I mean, what does
26:12
the Bible start with? So the Bible is they. Oh,
26:17
yeah. Because they start with it. We have a desk
26:20
tonight, and I have a literal Bible here. It's
26:23
kind of fun. So we can use the actual Bible.
26:25
Actually, we should just read the actual Bible.
26:27
I thought you were going to. I didn't know we
26:29
had one with us. There's one right here. I just
26:31
wrote it down on my notes. This is the NASB,
26:33
so it's the most direct, harsh translation. I
26:38
like that. I don't know why I opened to Genesis
26:41
2. I skipped page one. We're going to be there.
26:43
Okay. Well, so first, before we dive into this,
26:47
because we're about to get to actually... Genesis
26:50
chapter 1. Chapter one. Okay. Right there. Is
26:55
it harder to read directly from this now instead
26:58
of just from your phone? I still prefer, I still,
27:01
at home, I still read out of a physical. Yeah.
27:04
It's less distracting. Yeah. It feels more intentional.
27:07
For sure. I like the tactile side. Yeah. Like
27:11
if you're zooming or Skyping with somebody. Yeah.
27:14
There's a lot you can do versus if you're sitting
27:17
right in front of them. Yeah. You're kind of
27:19
limited more in a good way. Yeah. Yeah. So Gen
27:23
1. Anyway, these 6 ,000 -year -old people. Yeah,
27:25
yeah, yeah. Let me finish making fun of them.
27:27
Some old people. Yeah. They're very old. They're
27:29
as old as the earth. Here, I'll hold this open.
27:31
Oh, thank you. This is a newer Bible, so it's
27:34
not staying open very well. But the main thing
27:37
with that, too, that I kind of want to poke at
27:39
it for a second before I go into the rest of
27:41
this. Yeah. And this is what we talked about
27:43
in the last episode. It's like there is that
27:45
assumption that Adam was created on day six.
27:49
Where it's just like, well, the Bible doesn't
27:51
explicitly say yes or no to that. It also doesn't
27:54
say Adam. That's what I mean. And so it's like
27:57
we see where it says like, oh, he created men,
28:01
humanity, and then he created the man, or he
28:05
took the man. He took the man, right. And so
28:07
it's like, well, maybe this man was like four
28:10
generations old. Or maybe all this happened at
28:13
the same time. But then on top of that, it's
28:16
like we also don't know. Did he take the man
28:19
right away and put him in the garden? Or was
28:22
he there for a while? Then he's like, oh, by
28:23
the way, come to this garden. It's like we don't
28:27
know one way or the other because the Bible doesn't
28:28
explicitly say. So it's like there's a lot of
28:31
openness to interpretation inside of that. Yeah,
28:36
true. So all that to say it's like if we want
28:39
to say Adam's the starting point for the age
28:42
of the earth, that's not a very good one because
28:44
we don't know when he started. Correct. And we
28:47
don't actually get his birthday. What we get
28:49
is when he had his third son. Yeah. Which is
28:54
like, who knows? Yeah, it could have been any
28:57
time. Right. And the tricky thing, too, is some
29:00
people would argue that there's also a particular
29:06
theology that would say that Cain was actually
29:10
the seed of Satan, which would technically be
29:14
the first Antichrist. That's interesting. And
29:17
Abel would be the first savior. Yeah, that's
29:19
fascinating. But the savior dies and the Antichrist
29:22
lives and is cursed on the earth. You get that
29:26
from Cain and Abel, the first two people. That's
29:28
actually pretty fascinating. But it's not, again,
29:30
not the first two people. Right. It's the first
29:34
two people named out of Adam and Eve. Yes, that's
29:37
correct. Yeah. But we don't know all the other
29:39
people's names. They don't tell us. It doesn't
29:42
seem to be. And who they were and when they were
29:47
is speculative as well. Yeah. I'll say it now.
29:54
That's the one thing with, especially Genesis,
29:57
where I think we need to look at, okay, what
30:00
is the author trying to tell us? And what do
30:04
we want out of this? And there are things we
30:06
can pull from it, which is what we're going to
30:07
look at. What are some of the clues that we are
30:10
given? Sure. But overall, it's like, okay, what's
30:12
the actual purpose of what he's writing? Yeah.
30:15
Why he's writing what he's writing. Yeah. But
30:16
anyway, let's start at the very beginning. Let's
30:19
do it. Story time with Paul and Stephen. So Genesis
30:23
1 .1. Okay. It says, in the beginning, God created
30:27
the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless
30:30
and void, and darkness was over the surface of
30:33
the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over
30:35
the surface of the waters. So we're going to
30:38
stop there. Okay. Believe it or not. We didn't
30:41
make it very far. No. There's a lot more to read.
30:45
Oh, there's actually a lot more books. Sorry.
30:50
Sorry to derail you. So there's just like a ton
30:53
right there. Right. And it's like, okay, so this
30:55
is our setup. This is the very beginning, so
30:57
it's set in context. Yeah. It's like, okay, so
31:00
what's all happening here? And so for me, it's
31:04
like, okay, so. Yeah, Genesis 1 -1 to 1 -2. Yeah,
31:10
yeah. What happened? It's pretty jam -packed.
31:12
It's a whole book. So the first thing for me
31:14
is like, yeah, so it says, I'm sorry, I'm reading.
31:22
No, no, you're good. Lots of reading tonight.
31:24
What did I write? So it says we have the earth.
31:30
That's way too far. From the beginning. I'm just,
31:34
I'm not used to having a laptop. I know. It's
31:38
kind of a fun experience. Yeah. And if you're
31:40
just listening, then you can't see all the things
31:43
going on. It looks way different tonight. Yeah,
31:47
that's true. Smoking brain. So first. Okay. I
31:52
found my spot. There we go. So first we see that
31:55
before day one. Yeah. Because day one starts
32:00
with, then God said, let there be light. Sure.
32:04
So before day one, God created the heavens and
32:06
the earth. So the question is, what did the earth
32:09
look like? Yeah. And so luckily, it tells us.
32:14
It does. It says it's without form and void.
32:16
Yes. It's like, oh, what does that mean? What
32:20
does that mean? So thankfully, it tells us. It
32:24
was waters. Oh, yeah. Spirit of God was hovering
32:28
over. Yes. So they're like, oh, okay. So in the
32:32
beginning, God created the earth, which was basically
32:34
just water. Yeah. So it's like, oh, is that what
32:37
it's telling us? Yeah, and I hadn't thought about
32:41
this before, but the concept of birth, birth
32:48
happens in water. Yeah. And so there's something
32:52
being formed in water during physical birth.
32:56
Yeah. So, I mean, we talk about this all the
33:00
time, but it's like everything mimics the way
33:03
that God created the order of how things are
33:05
created and how things work and function. Yeah.
33:09
So it's all mimicking that. So I hadn't really
33:11
thought about that before, but if you read Genesis
33:14
1, 1, 1, 2, it reads very much like a woman giving
33:20
birth. Yeah. Which, yeah. No, it's very true.
33:24
Yeah. And we'll definitely talk more about that
33:26
too because there's an interesting cycle that
33:28
I think we see inside of scripture. Okay. It's
33:31
this like cyclical process that it follows. Yeah.
33:34
Which is interesting if you place that onto this
33:37
text, which we'll get to that. Okay. Because
33:40
that's just so fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do
33:42
it. So Genesis never records God creating water
33:45
during the six days. So the waters appear to
33:50
already exist. When the ordering of creation
33:52
begins. Okay. Which is kind of what we see here
33:55
in some of the language. Right. So in Genesis
33:58
1, 1 through 2, we have the earth being totally
34:02
water, and there was darkness over the face of
34:04
the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering.
34:07
So what's all that for? Right. So first, and
34:12
this one we have talked about before in a lot,
34:15
which is the idea of the deep. Okay. And so the
34:19
word translated here is the Hebrew to home. So
34:23
in ancient Near East, this word referred to the
34:26
primordial ocean. Oh. The primordial ocean. It's
34:32
a fun word. It is. So that's like the chaotic
34:34
waters believed to exist before ordered creation.
34:38
Okay. Which is exactly what we see here. Yeah.
34:42
So similar ideas appear in other cultures. We've
34:47
talked about that in our myth series. Yeah, yeah.
34:49
And a lot of that is the Babylonian myth that
34:53
speaks about Tiamat. Yep. And so that's a sea
34:57
chaos goddess. Yeah. And then a lot of creation
35:01
stories often describe a cosmic ocean that must
35:06
be subdued or fought. Okay. So what's interesting
35:09
here is because... The Hebrew word to home shares
35:13
a common ancient root with Tiamat. Yes. And it
35:17
also is referring to this like a same thing.
35:21
So it seems like in here, the Bible is drawing
35:24
on these ancient myths. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not
35:27
saying stealing or borrowing. No, no. But it's
35:29
playing off of them. Right. And it's saying that
35:33
God ordered and defeated this chaos, but he did
35:36
it by speaking, not by fighting it. Yes. And
35:39
it's like, and that's a very important distinction
35:42
that the Bible is talking about. And that's,
35:44
since I just said that too, I'll go ahead and
35:46
say this. Yeah. We've said this before. Yeah.
35:48
Where it's like, it's also looking at like, okay,
35:50
what's the Bible trying to do? Right. And it's
35:53
not trying to create something new. Sure. It
35:56
is trying to correct what has been, that needs
36:00
correction. Yeah. So it's like, okay, here's
36:02
all these myths that have been written before
36:07
the Bible. Yes. But the Bible's not saying it
36:10
was written first. Right. The Bible's just saying,
36:13
no, you guys got it wrong. Right. This is what
36:15
happened. Yeah, one could say that the Bible
36:19
is bringing order to chaos. Absolutely. Yes.
36:22
Which is... Beautiful to think about that way.
36:26
Yes. So it's basically saying like, okay, so
36:30
Moses is the one that's writing all this stuff
36:32
down. Yeah. He's recording these things and the
36:35
conversations he's having with Yahweh. And in
36:38
the process of doing that, obviously the earth
36:41
wasn't... like a day older than moses yeah so
36:45
that being said there's already all of these
36:48
civilizations there's already all this stuff
36:51
going on yeah there's histories within all of
36:53
these civilizations and so they have all of their
36:57
own ideals and they have uh what we would argue
37:01
based off of um really what what the text seems
37:06
to imply um that all of these other nations were
37:09
going after other gods yeah and those other gods
37:13
not being like fake things that they made up
37:16
based off of some antidote of trying to stay
37:20
alive but instead that they were actual beings
37:23
that were giving information to these people
37:26
yes and they were receiving something in return
37:29
yeah so what So then the biblical story shows
37:32
us the dispersion of these individuals. And in
37:36
the process of that, we go, all right, well,
37:38
when we come to the text and Moses is writing
37:42
the creation story, he's obviously writing it
37:45
into a time where there's a lot of things to
37:48
set straight. Yes. And Moses and the people of
37:53
God are essentially representing and bringing
37:57
back. what the people of God are supposed to
38:03
look like on the earth or what humanity is supposed
38:05
to look like on the earth. So it's setting the
38:08
record straight. Yeah, because even if we look
38:11
at it from post the flood, all information is
38:18
being passed now to the future generations from
38:21
Noah and his family. Right. And we see that Noah
38:25
and his family get kind of messed up pretty quick.
38:28
Right. Yeah. And so it's like, yeah, from there,
38:32
if they're the only ones that hold like the accurate
38:35
stories of like, this is what happened. And like,
38:39
this is how creation happened. This is what it
38:40
looks like. And this is, these are the things.
38:43
Yes. And then you have people that are seeking
38:47
to cause chaos. Right. And other things that
38:51
are doing the same thing. Yeah. It's like, yeah,
38:54
it would make sense that they would be like,
38:55
oh, that didn't actually happen that way. Sure.
38:58
I was actually the one who did that. Sure. It's
39:00
like, oh, OK. Well, and then you have things
39:03
like like the what's the the Oracle of Delphi?
39:08
Yeah. Yeah. You have these random people sitting
39:11
on top of a hole in the earth receiving things
39:15
that these priests are translating into poems.
39:19
And you're like. Well, I mean, everybody is trying
39:22
to seek the ancient knowledge. Yes. And they're
39:26
just going to believe whatever they get. Yeah.
39:28
Because that's what they tell us they did. Yeah,
39:32
and even when you look at it from these other
39:35
gods, it's like, well, they're older than Noah.
39:39
Right. And so it's like, oh, they have more ancient
39:43
knowledge. Fair. Even though it's wrong because
39:46
it's self -satisfying. Yes. It's not the truth.
39:51
It's a bending of the truth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
39:55
But they could make that argument of like, oh,
39:57
I'm actually way older than Noah, so I know better
39:59
than him. Fair. Yeah. The only reason to say
40:03
all this is like it makes sense that there would
40:06
be these diversions from different cultures.
40:09
And so the Bible is here to say like, hey, this
40:12
is actually the truth. Yeah. And so it often
40:16
can play off of these other cultural ideas. Yes.
40:19
Because it's doing that intentionally. Right.
40:21
It's saying, oh, you guys think it's this way.
40:23
Yeah. This is actually what it is. Yeah. Yeah.
40:27
True. So then. So then there's also another interesting
40:32
reference here, which is darkness. Okay. Inside
40:35
these verses. Okay. And it says, so the reference
40:40
to darkness is this continuity of chaos and unordered
40:45
spaces. Right. So chaos ruled in this area because
40:49
it was not yet ordered. And so then we see the
40:53
spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters.
40:55
Yes. And this gives us the image of expectancy.
40:59
Right. So this is the imagery and the context
41:02
that the writer is trying to give us. So to paint
41:05
this image of like, well, what happened before
41:07
God ordered it? What did it look like? I've never
41:10
done a study on this, but I wonder if the language
41:12
of the spirit of God. coming over Mary in the
41:18
Immaculate Conception, is calling back to creation.
41:24
That would be kind of interesting, actually.
41:25
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that wouldn't be, I don't
41:28
think that would be too far -fetched just off
41:30
the top of my head. Yeah, just as a concept.
41:33
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's that same idea,
41:38
even with this, it's that chaos isn't going to
41:42
win. Right. But like there is that, there is
41:45
the spirit who's ready to create new life. Yes.
41:49
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, so this image and
41:55
other places that we see a little bit more like
41:58
direct that I looked at. I didn't look at the
42:01
Mary one. That's an interesting one. I'd be interested
42:03
to look into that more. Yeah. I feel like that.
42:05
Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. But the ones
42:08
that came to mind for me was Deuteronomy 32,
42:11
11. Okay. So this is describing an eagle hovering
42:15
over its young. And then I think even more similar,
42:20
especially for this specific situation, is Noah's
42:26
flood. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have the post
42:28
with the dove. And it's that same idea of this
42:32
representation of expectancy and rebirth. Or
42:36
creation. Yeah, it's almost like a bookend. Yeah.
42:40
It's like pretty quickly we go from there are
42:45
these waters that life comes from and then the
42:49
waters cover back up and reset. Yeah. So the
42:54
flood is like a recreation. It's going back to
42:58
the beginning and it's shuffling it back up.
43:05
It's like resetting it. Yeah, it's making it
43:07
formless again. Yes. In order to reform it. Yeah.
43:11
Which is why it makes sense that God says, I'll
43:14
never flood the earth again. Yeah, and I think
43:18
that's what makes Noah's flood so significant.
43:21
Right. Yeah, because very quickly, he is undoing
43:26
creation. Yes. And before he undoes creation,
43:30
he says, I'm sorry I ever made it. Yeah. Which
43:34
is tough after saying it was good or orderly.
43:39
He's like, oh, this is useful. No, it's not.
43:41
Well, we've talked about the idea that like when
43:43
he says, and it was good, that it's more synonymous
43:47
with, and it was orderly. Yes. And that it was
43:50
in order, which then that reads a little bit
43:54
more true to the Hebrew and leading into the
43:57
flood of going like, well, people and... beings
44:02
have undone the order that i've set in place
44:05
yeah so i'm going to crash it pull it apart in
44:12
order for it to be formed back together hopefully
44:15
to prevent the disorder again yeah and at the
44:21
at the i guess the least case of it is the things
44:24
that are creating disorder Yes. Let's get rid
44:27
of them. Yeah, remove those. Let's purge all
44:30
the disorder from the earth. Yes. And let's try
44:33
to reorder it. Is that what the purge is about?
44:37
Still have never seen that and will never see
44:40
that. I actually have never seen it. Yeah. I've
44:42
seen parts of it. So you've seen it. Well, it's
44:46
like someone had it on and I walked in. I was
44:48
like, hmm, I don't really want to watch that.
44:52
No thanks. Do you have anything else to watch
44:54
perhaps? Little Mermaid? Do you have the Little
44:57
Mermaid? I would prefer that. But even, so like
45:03
this idea of deep waters, going back to that.
45:05
Yes. That's a common theme throughout scripture
45:08
as well. Yes, yeah. I mean, Genesis 6 through
45:12
9, we have, which is the flood. We have the Red
45:17
Sea crossing in Exodus. Yes. We have Psalm 74.
45:23
And then we even have Jesus calming the storm
45:26
in the Gospels. Oh, yeah. Like, who is this man
45:31
that even the wind and the waves would obey him?
45:34
Because, like, here they are over these deep
45:36
waters. Yes. And they're troubled because it's
45:38
like, oh, there's a storm coming. Chaos will
45:40
take us over. Yes. And the waters seen as, like,
45:45
the sea seen as a gateway to the underworld.
45:49
Yes. Yeah. So that's, yeah, that's interesting.
45:53
Yeah. And it's just that, that same idea. And
45:56
then, so that's where I think this pattern is,
45:58
is, you know, we have chaos waters and then we
46:02
have God restrains them and then life emerges
46:06
from it. Yeah. And so it's that it's, we see
46:09
that especially with the flood where it's like,
46:11
all right, here's some chaos. Yeah. And then
46:14
God subdues the water. Yes. And then life reemerges.
46:18
Yes. Like a new creation comes up. Yeah. And
46:21
that's the same idea we see here in Genesis 1.
46:23
Yeah. It's true. So interestingly. Echoing themes.
46:28
It loves to echo. The echo sphere. We haven't
46:31
talked about that in a while. We haven't brought
46:32
that up in a while. I would love to see that
46:34
on like a hat or a shirt. Yeah. Yeah. The echo
46:38
sphere. Let's do it. That would be great. I'm
46:40
down for that. That's our merch drop. So I mentioned
46:44
Psalm 74. Yeah. So let's just look at that one.
46:47
Okay. So actually, can I, let me just pull it
46:51
up. Let me analog pull it up. Let me analog pull
46:55
it up. Who's Jimmy? Oh, Jamie. Jamie. Psalm 74.
47:01
Brother Stephen. Brother Stephen, please pull
47:04
that up. Here it is. I found it. Thank you. Thank
47:09
you. And I'm even going to jump a little bit
47:11
here. Jump. Jump. So this is starting in. Okay.
47:18
And it says, You have established all the boundaries
47:46
of the earth. You have made summer and winter.
47:48
Yeah. So there's a lot of really interesting
47:50
things in here. Yeah. But they seem to echo creation.
47:55
You know, yeah. And one of the things that I
47:58
don't think that we, maybe we don't teach enough
48:01
or talk about enough is like, I'm reminded because
48:05
going through judges recently, realizing that
48:11
Deborah, in one of the judges, when Israel has
48:17
a victory over an enemy, her first response is
48:22
to pull Israel together and turn that victory
48:25
into a moment of worship and to call out all
48:27
the things and praise God for delivering them
48:30
out of the enemy's hands and delivering them.
48:34
And basically what she does in that moment is
48:37
she takes a real -time thing And she lays it
48:41
into a song of praise and worship. And what the
48:45
Psalms are, just simply put, is moments of individuals
48:51
or song leaders, worship leaders, whether that's
48:55
David or that one was a miscal of Asaph. Yes.
49:02
Which is like, you know, a musician of Asaph.
49:05
So the idea is someone that is musical is taking
49:11
things that are true of the worldview of Hebrews
49:17
and going back and praising God for what He has
49:23
done, what He is doing, and what He will do.
49:27
And so a lot of times when they go into these
49:31
moments of worship and praise, they're being
49:34
very descriptive of things that happened in creation
49:39
from the foundations. They're calling all the
49:41
way back to like, Lord, you were faithful even
49:44
from the beginning and then describing like...
49:48
in detail things that were like, whoa, that's
49:50
not in Genesis. And you're like, well, but it
49:53
was part of their worldview. So whether it was
49:56
how Genesis was described and passed down, the
49:59
way that they understood more detail to the story,
50:03
the way that those stories were actually passed
50:06
down from generation to generation were probably
50:09
a little bit more grand in explanation. a little
50:12
bit more colorful an explanation. And so we get
50:16
a lot of that in the Psalms. Yeah. So it's not
50:19
necessarily, the Psalms aren't necessarily something
50:21
to build a doctrine off of as far as like these
50:26
are specific details because they are songs,
50:30
so there's creative liberty in the poetic form.
50:34
Yeah. But... it is giving us certain things and
50:37
using specific names where it's like, well, I
50:40
don't know that they would use a name like that
50:43
unless that was a name that they used often in
50:45
relationship to this. Right. So I think in that
50:48
way, it's kind of interesting because essentially
50:51
the Psalms are giving us a more colorful description
50:53
of who God has been from the beginning. Yeah.
50:57
I mean, even in this, it's not, the Psalmist
51:00
isn't trying to tell you that there was a Leviathan
51:03
that God, crushed his head no but it's painting
51:06
that picture of like this being represents chaos
51:09
yes and it represents um the waters and the deep
51:13
waters so let me use that to say this but it
51:17
is reinforcing a bigger picture right yeah it's
51:20
more evocative and that's what we've talked about
51:22
before with psalms is the idea that like they're
51:25
not just coming up with random things right yeah
51:27
so like their baseline it's it's like when you
51:30
would use a metaphor like the whole the whole
51:32
concept is like if you're using a metaphor you're
51:35
trying to go you don't really you can't really
51:38
comprehend this thing because you haven't seen
51:40
it or experienced it and so i'm going to use
51:43
something you i know you've seen and experienced
51:46
in order to describe something you haven't seen
51:49
or experienced yes or can't fully perceive of
51:53
so let me put some uh understanding to it so
51:57
yeah again the things that are in the psalms
52:01
if those things aren't actual references that
52:04
are helpful to the listener then they're they're
52:08
void there's no point in saying it yeah because
52:11
it's like yeah if i'm going to describe something
52:14
that you've never had before, and I describe
52:18
it with something else you've never had before,
52:20
then I've not properly communicated anything
52:22
at all to you. Yes. And that's not what the Psalms
52:25
are doing. Yeah. They're trying to tell you based
52:28
on context. Yeah. And I think that goes back
52:31
to the similar idea of the corrective nature
52:35
of what a lot of the writers of Scripture are
52:38
doing, especially when it comes to Genesis. They're
52:41
not telling you, let me break this down scientifically
52:43
for you of how this happened. No, no. He's just
52:46
like, hey, this is what everyone else is saying
52:48
has happened. Right. But let me correct the letter
52:51
here. Yeah, yeah. And so because of that, it's
52:54
not going to give you every individual detail.
52:56
Right. Because it doesn't need to. Yeah. It's
52:59
like, you know the story. I can make this reference.
53:02
You know what I'm talking about. Yes, exactly.
53:04
And this is the part you have messed up. Yes.
53:06
Yeah. Yeah, I like that. So Paul, how old is
53:11
the earth? Oh, we're getting there. Well, so
53:14
I want to jump to another place, which is Jeremiah
53:17
4. Oh, okay. We're jumping all the way around.
53:21
Oh, you're already there. Yeah, I got prepared.
53:23
Nice. I want to try to build this narrative in
53:28
our head or this image. Look at these clues.
53:30
Yeah, I like that. So it's like so far, when
53:32
we look at Genesis 1, It's telling us a lot of
53:38
information right off the rip. It is. Of like,
53:41
okay, so there is this chaotic, useless, unformed
53:46
thing. Right. And then God said, I'm going to
53:49
order it. Yeah. And then we see in the Psalms,
53:53
the psalmist is also drawing on that idea of
53:55
like, there was this utterly chaotic thing and
53:59
God brought order to it. Yes. And so it's like,
54:04
what that's doing right there is, based on the
54:07
timeline for me, is like it doesn't give us any
54:09
definites. Okay. But it's creating this image
54:12
of context. Yeah. So like what did it look like
54:15
before God ordered it? And we know that in the
54:18
beginning he created it. Yeah. But it didn't
54:23
have use. Sure. It didn't have any order to it.
54:25
Right. So there was creation but not purpose.
54:28
Yeah. Yeah. And we'll definitely talk more about
54:30
that in a second here. But so Jeremiah 4, specifically
54:35
23 through 26. So let me go ahead and read that
54:38
here for us. I like it. He says, I looked on
54:44
the earth and behold, it was formless and void.
54:48
Heard that before. And to the heavens, they had
54:50
no light. I looked on the mountains and behold,
54:53
they were quaking and all the hills moved to
54:56
and fro. I looked and behold, there was no man.
55:02
and all the birds of the heavens had fled. I
55:05
looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
55:08
and all its cities were pulled down before the
55:11
Lord before his fierce anger. So let me add some
55:16
context to what Jeremiah is talking about here
55:18
first before we look into that. So Jeremiah is
55:22
describing the coming destruction of Judah by
55:24
Babylon. Okay. But the prophet here is doing
55:30
this by borrowing the language Genesis from creation.
55:35
But it's interesting because there's some added
55:38
language here that we didn't have before from
55:40
Genesis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But on top of that,
55:43
I think it's really interesting because Jeremiah
55:46
isn't telling us about the world in Genesis.
55:50
Okay. But he's showing us what it looks like
55:54
when creation collapses back into chaos. Sure.
55:57
So it's kind of this reverse order. Yeah, yeah,
55:59
yeah. But he's still using that same language
56:01
to describe the coming destruction. Okay. In
56:05
like an unordering way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:08
And using language that they've heard before.
56:11
Yeah. So he's actually taking it back to the
56:15
beginning and saying that this coming thing is
56:18
like the original chaos. Yeah. That's interesting.
56:24
I think that's kind of fascinating. It is. Yeah.
56:27
And then the other one that I wanted to look
56:29
at here was Isaiah 45, 18. Okay. And Isaiah,
56:35
he liked to write a lot. He's actually back this
56:39
way. He liked to write a lot. Isaiah, you know,
56:43
the guy that liked to write a lot. You know,
56:45
that guy. I think Isaiah saw a lot of things.
56:48
He did. So imagine if we got everything he ever
56:52
saw or thought. It'd be a lot. But I love how,
56:56
because isn't he the prophet who is just like
56:58
sitting by a tree naked for like weeks? And everyone's
57:02
like, what are you doing? He's like, I'll tell
57:05
you about it later. You got to wait a little
57:09
longer. I'm not done yet. I have more to suffer.
57:16
I think that was Jeremiah. Oh, maybe that was
57:21
Jeremiah. Because he's the suffering. You're
57:23
right. Prophet, yeah. Yeah, I get it mixed up
57:26
sometimes. Same, and I'm not even confident saying
57:29
that, so. Everyone's like, that was Ezekiel,
57:31
you. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my bad. No, Ezekiel spent
57:34
most of his time in heaven. Yeah, he did. He
57:38
was not with us. No, he was not with us. So,
57:43
Isaiah 45, 18. It says, for thus says the Lord
57:49
who created the heavens, he is the God who formed
57:52
the earth and made it. He established it and
57:55
did not create it a waste place, but formed it
57:59
to be inhabited. So let me add some context there
58:05
too. Yeah, so creation with purpose. Yeah, yeah,
58:08
exactly. So it's the part of the passage is about
58:13
God's sovereignty over creation. This is kind
58:16
of what he's talking about, yeah, throughout
58:17
this section. God raising Cyrus the Great to
58:21
restore Israel and God declaring that he alone
58:24
created the world. So the main point here that
58:26
Isaiah is making in this passage is that God
58:30
created the world with purpose, not meaninglessness.
58:33
Right, right, right. So here's the question that
58:37
it brings up for me. Okay. And here's the reason
58:39
why it brought us down this rabbit hole. Sure,
58:41
yeah, yeah. Which brings us all the way back
58:42
to Genesis 1. Okay. And this is the confusing
58:47
part, is that Genesis says that the earth was
58:51
created formless. Right. But Isaiah says it was
58:54
created not formless. Okay. So which is it? Does
58:59
it say not formless? Or not without purpose?
59:03
Not without... Let me read it one more time.
59:05
Because that's different. He says, in the way
59:09
it's translated here, it says waste place. But
59:11
it actually, in Hebrew, it is the same word.
59:14
I believe it's tofu, I think is. Sounds right
59:19
to me. Tofu. But so it actually is the same Hebrew
59:24
word. In the beginning, God creates tofu. And
59:29
all the vegans celebrate. I knew it. So there
59:34
were vegans before the creation of the earth.
59:36
To witness God's good creation of tofu. I love
59:40
this. Okay. So we see this kind of like potential
59:47
issue here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it begs the
59:52
question, for me at least, is that is the Bible
59:56
contradicting itself or did it become formless?
1:00:00
Did the earth become formless? Okay. So that's
1:00:05
the question that I'm kind of posing here a little
1:00:07
bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the Bible, as we've
1:00:10
talked about, it follows these patterns. It loves
1:00:12
its patterns and its symbolism and cycles. Yes.
1:00:15
And so we often see this pattern, which is creation,
1:00:18
chaos, and then recreation. But Genesis starts
1:00:22
with chaos. Yes. And so I guess the question
1:00:28
then is like, is it breaking the pattern? Because
1:00:30
the Bible likes to do that to make a point sometimes.
1:00:32
Sure. Or are we simply picking up in the middle
1:00:35
of a cycle? Are we picking up in the middle of
1:00:38
the pattern? Okay, as far as Genesis is concerned?
1:00:41
As far as Genesis is concerned. Yeah, it's almost
1:00:43
like the way that Isaiah talks about it is in
1:00:48
a way that is corrective of going, well, God
1:00:52
created it and left it and then came back to
1:00:54
it. And that's where there's a lot of different
1:00:59
speculation in that. And potentially could be
1:01:02
a lot of speculation in that is like the movement
1:01:05
between Genesis 1 -1 and Genesis 1 -2. And people
1:01:08
talk about another, like the whole Rahab theory
1:01:13
and the concept of there being like another planet
1:01:16
that was destroyed and all of those things. Well,
1:01:19
none of that's actually in there. Yeah. So like,
1:01:23
that's fine, but it's not actually in the Bible.
1:01:26
Yes. And even the Psalm passage that would speak
1:01:30
to that is like, okay, like maybe, but it's not
1:01:34
explicit. Yeah. So I think maybe the correction
1:01:39
of that, of going like, yeah, I don't know. I
1:01:43
don't know exactly how Isaiah would have been
1:01:45
speaking to that. Yeah. Because let me say this
1:01:49
to conclude the fact that I just said nothing
1:01:53
at all. It's just simply the idea that like the
1:01:57
way I've always looked at it is that it's a little
1:02:01
bit like God created clay before he molded it.
1:02:05
So the idea that like he created the materials
1:02:08
first and then put them together. Yeah. So that's
1:02:12
kind of my thought is like because if you've
1:02:15
ever built anything, you either have to. like
1:02:19
go and get the materials or you have to actually
1:02:22
make the materials yeah like if you're building
1:02:25
something if you're building a table a wooden
1:02:28
table you're either going to the store and buying
1:02:31
the wood or you're literally going and making
1:02:34
the wood by cutting down a tree milling it drying
1:02:38
it out like the whole process of that yeah so
1:02:41
like i've always looked at it like that that
1:02:44
what we're getting is this idea that God creates
1:02:47
the tree, and the process of the waters and hovering
1:02:52
over the waters is this process of cutting the
1:02:55
tree, building it into the materials where it's
1:03:00
going to be, drying it out, getting it ready,
1:03:02
and then assembling the table. I see, yeah. That's
1:03:06
kind of how I always have read that poetic language
1:03:09
of Genesis 1. Yeah, which I guess I... I think
1:03:13
especially in light of some of this, I see it
1:03:15
a little bit differently now in the idea of,
1:03:19
especially the symbolism and how it's used of
1:03:21
darkness in the deep. Okay. Where it's like it
1:03:24
never has a good or purposeful connotation. Sure.
1:03:28
And I think that's where... Like there's already
1:03:31
activity going on. Yeah. And so there's a correction
1:03:34
to activity going on. And I think that's my question
1:03:37
to it. So it's funny, like coming to the end
1:03:39
of this is like, I don't have really an answer
1:03:41
for it because the Bible, again, it doesn't tell
1:03:44
us. Sorry, I spoiled it. But I think what it
1:03:50
does is kind of open up for me some more things
1:03:52
that we can question or look at. Yeah, yeah.
1:03:55
Which is, on one hand, The writer obviously wasn't
1:03:59
interested in telling us how old the earth was
1:04:01
because he didn't care. Yeah. That's not why
1:04:05
he wrote the Genesis account of creation. Sure.
1:04:09
But what we do see is, hey, there was something
1:04:12
not good here. Yes. There was something that
1:04:15
was disorderly. Yes. And God creates order. Yes.
1:04:19
That's his nature to create things that have
1:04:21
purpose. Yes. And so here we start in a place.
1:04:27
And there's even other, especially when you look
1:04:32
at like Hebrew, modern Hebrew translations of
1:04:35
the text that add vowels. Okay. There's other
1:04:39
ways to interpret even the first sentence of
1:04:42
Genesis. That makes sense. Which is a lot to
1:04:47
talk about. Yeah, yeah. That we don't really
1:04:49
need to get into right now. But for me, it's
1:04:53
like, okay, so God doesn't create. something
1:04:56
that doesn't have purpose right he creates things
1:04:59
with purpose yes but the writer opens us up with
1:05:02
something that has no purpose seemingly seemingly
1:05:06
right based on like how that language is used
1:05:10
throughout scripture um because so interestingly
1:05:13
because even when we look at job yeah um god
1:05:18
has a long a long spot in there where he's correcting
1:05:23
and talking to Job. Right. And one of the most
1:05:27
interesting parts for me in that section is when
1:05:32
he talks about Behemoth and Leviathan. Yes. Which
1:05:35
is funny that it's Leviathan. It is, yeah. And
1:05:38
it's like, here are these beings that seemingly
1:05:42
cause destruction on the earth. Right. Where
1:05:44
we would look at it and say, oh, those things
1:05:46
are bad. Yeah. But God is over here saying, no,
1:05:49
actually those things, have purpose in my creation.
1:05:52
Right. What you see, you say it causes destruction
1:05:57
and it's bad, but I say what it's doing actually
1:06:00
causes good things. In the same way we, like,
1:06:03
natural forest fires. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We would
1:06:05
look at something like that and say, oh, that's
1:06:07
bad. Right. But as we've looked more into those,
1:06:10
we're like, oh, these are actually good things.
1:06:12
Yes. Because it allows for a new birth inside
1:06:14
of the earth. Yeah. And so for me, even with
1:06:19
that, is my takeaway from this and how I'm thinking
1:06:24
of it is what Genesis is opening us into is that
1:06:30
flood moment in Noah. That same symbolism where
1:06:34
it's like, hey, we're starting here and God judged
1:06:38
something. Yeah. And now he's starting over and
1:06:42
he's putting us in it. Interesting. So you're
1:06:46
reading Genesis 1 in light of Genesis 6? Yeah.
1:06:50
I mean, that makes sense. Particularly because
1:06:55
the language of Leviathan and the beasts, when
1:07:00
you look at the RSV or you look at other translations
1:07:03
that kind of point to, in Genesis 1, the creation
1:07:07
of wild beasts or things that are a little bit
1:07:12
more extravagant than kind of our subdued. even
1:07:16
the NASB here, that it's really like God created
1:07:20
these things and they were causing chaos or he
1:07:27
created these things to cause chaos in order
1:07:33
to set the stage for order. And that would be
1:07:38
like, yeah, to contradict myself even there.
1:07:40
It's like, well, if it's judgment, then God did
1:07:43
use. the language of leviathan these these deep
1:07:47
waters yeah to create order in the same way that
1:07:52
he flooded the earth i mean in genesis 6 yeah
1:07:55
he flooded the earth in genesis 1 true yeah i
1:08:00
mean well or it began from the waters which is
1:08:05
also possible yeah it's a little more i think
1:08:07
that's a little more consistent with what it
1:08:09
is like in the beginning god created the heavens
1:08:12
and the earth and Here's the thing about that
1:08:16
as well. It's the heavens, it's a plural, and
1:08:21
the earth. And if you know anything about, like
1:08:25
we've talked about this a little bit, but like
1:08:26
the Apostle Paul mentions being caught up into
1:08:31
the third heaven. And so there was this understanding
1:08:34
that the sky was the first heaven. It was the
1:08:38
heavens above. So God... In the beginning, God
1:08:42
created the heavens above and the earth. It doesn't
1:08:47
mean that he created his throne dwelling. Yeah.
1:08:52
Because he's already dwelling there. And like
1:08:55
we've talked about before, the earth being this
1:08:58
specific creation for humanity to rule and reign.
1:09:05
And if it is that, we actually don't have an
1:09:09
indication the Bible of the creation of God's
1:09:16
dwelling place. Hmm. That's not in here. Yeah.
1:09:20
So like, we don't know what the creation of God's
1:09:24
dwelling place, what that looked like. Yeah.
1:09:27
We just know the foundations of the earth and
1:09:31
that's not a theory. It's literally the earth.
1:09:35
Yeah. So it's like, that's yeah. So in, in that
1:09:39
way, It's the heavens and the earth. It's not
1:09:44
creation of all things ever. Yes. So it's not
1:09:47
making this massive jump. Right. It's going in
1:09:51
the beginning God created the heavens and the
1:09:54
earth. The earth and the heavens above. The earth
1:09:57
was formless and void and darkness was over the
1:10:01
surface of the deep. So when God created it,
1:10:05
it was this formless peace. that had this deep
1:10:15
darkness in it, and he then starts to create
1:10:21
order, and the first thing he does is let there
1:10:26
be light. So the ordering begins with light over
1:10:32
darkness, which is... Yeah. Because what we know
1:10:38
scientifically going back to the beginning of
1:10:40
the conversation is that life does not exist
1:10:45
as we know it without the presence of light.
1:10:49
Yeah. However, there are living things that exist
1:10:53
without light or in the depths. Yeah. Case in
1:10:59
point, Finding Nemo. Yeah. I knew you'd find
1:11:04
a way. Or Luca. Where his uncle comes up from
1:11:07
and he's like translucent. Yeah. What a weird
1:11:09
thing. But the thing is, is even the things in
1:11:14
the deep are the light, like their life is a
1:11:21
byproduct of light existing. And if Jesus is
1:11:28
the light which illuminates the city of God in
1:11:34
Revelation, then the presence of God is the presence
1:11:41
of light itself or life itself. So in that, in
1:11:48
the creation, there can be an existence of life
1:11:51
from the source, which is illumination. But nowhere
1:12:00
in here do I see a date. That's the thing. And
1:12:05
that's even, like, with everything I'm trying
1:12:08
to, like, what I'm bringing up here and, like,
1:12:10
jumping around to. It's, like, it actually gives
1:12:12
us a lot of different information that doesn't
1:12:16
point to an exact time. Correct. And even inside
1:12:20
of here, because that was the other thing. Maybe
1:12:22
I, we got a couple minutes I can get into. Yeah,
1:12:24
yeah, yeah. The best that I can remember, because
1:12:26
I didn't write it down. Okay. Was, yeah, when
1:12:29
you look at. So our translation is in the beginning.
1:12:35
Right. And back in like the Middle Ages time
1:12:41
when they added vowels to the Hebrew Bibles.
1:12:45
Yes. Because before that, Dead Sea Scrolls and
1:12:49
all those other manuscripts, they don't have
1:12:50
vowels. Well, in fact, if you are Hebrew and
1:12:54
you go through a bar mitzvah, the readings you
1:12:57
have to do from the Torah. You have to do them
1:13:00
in Hebrew without the vowels. Oh, wow. Yeah,
1:13:03
it's not easy. That sounds hard. But they don't
1:13:06
read that. Like if you go to a synagogue now,
1:13:09
they're not reading from the, most of them aren't
1:13:12
reading from the Torah without vowels. Okay,
1:13:14
wow. Yeah, but that's, it's so much harder to
1:13:18
read it that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that would
1:13:21
make it really hard. And so this is the one where,
1:13:24
I can't remember which one is which. Okay. So
1:13:27
don't quote me on this part. Okay. But there
1:13:30
is a part where if, and this is coming from Hebrew
1:13:34
scholars that study this language. Yeah, yeah,
1:13:37
yeah. So not from me because I don't know. Sure.
1:13:40
Where they say if this is a translation that
1:13:43
you would want directly, it's either ba or be,
1:13:48
and I can't remember which. I don't know if you've
1:13:50
heard this. No. So. I'm going to pick one, and
1:13:54
hopefully it's the right one. Okay. So if you
1:13:57
wanted to, like, without a doubt, say, in the
1:13:59
beginning, you would put Ba Rashid. Okay. But
1:14:03
what we have inside of Hebrew translations ever
1:14:09
since the Middle Ages when they added vowels
1:14:12
was Beh Rashid, which could very accurately be
1:14:17
translated to when God began to create the heavens
1:14:21
and the earth. Oh, I have heard that. Okay. And
1:14:24
what makes that interesting is it actually changes
1:14:26
the syntax of how we read Genesis 1 through 3.
1:14:32
Yeah, because it's walking into the middle of
1:14:34
a conversation. Yeah. Which was your point. Yeah.
1:14:38
Yeah. Which, again, is more true. That's like
1:14:41
what we're talking about. It's this idea of like,
1:14:43
oh, and then because, again, the Bible. is God's
1:14:50
word to us helping us understand why we're here,
1:14:54
what we're supposed to be doing, and for whom
1:14:57
we're supposed to be doing it. And so it doesn't
1:15:02
concern things that, like it goes back to, well,
1:15:08
it goes forward to Genesis 3, where it's trying
1:15:12
to seek knowledge that... it's not beneficial
1:15:15
to us because it's not knowledge that we need
1:15:17
to do the task ahead of us. Yes. So it's not
1:15:21
important for me to learn all the details of
1:15:23
astrophysics if I'm going to be a professional
1:15:30
baseball player. Right. It's not important. Yeah.
1:15:33
So it's, in fact, a distraction and a waste of
1:15:37
my time and makes me potentially a worse baseball
1:15:40
player. Yeah, because you're sacrificing time
1:15:42
to practice. Yes. Yeah. So it's that idea of
1:15:47
like, we're not, he's not trying to give us how
1:15:50
he made cherubim. Right. Like that's not in for
1:15:55
what purpose? Like it's mentions it and it's
1:15:58
like, oh yeah, they're guardians, but it's like,
1:16:01
but are there cherub that do other things? The
1:16:04
Bible doesn't tell us that, but that doesn't
1:16:06
mean there aren't. Right. And it's not telling
1:16:09
us this is all they do. Yeah. So it's like, We
1:16:14
need to heed that and go, this is telling us
1:16:18
what I need to know. Yes. And it's not telling
1:16:22
me a lot of things. Yeah. Therefore, I don't
1:16:29
need to know it. It doesn't mean I can't explore
1:16:32
it in conversation. It doesn't even mean that
1:16:35
it's off limits to know. It just simply means
1:16:39
that it's not. If you needed to know it, you
1:16:43
would know it. Yeah. And if you want to explore
1:16:46
it, you can, but you're potentially not going
1:16:49
to find the answer you're looking for, or the
1:16:51
answer you're looking for may potentially distract
1:16:54
you from things you actually do know. Yeah. And
1:16:58
that's where the danger comes. Yeah. Is when
1:17:00
we say, this is definitively what is true. The
1:17:04
Bible doesn't say the earth started on this particular
1:17:08
day. But... If we say it did start on that particular
1:17:13
day, that could derail us from things down the
1:17:16
line that it says are actually true. Yeah. It's
1:17:20
like when we did the conversation on Methuselah.
1:17:23
And if you type in Methuselah into Google, it
1:17:26
actually tells you when Methuselah lived. Yeah.
1:17:30
It's like 3000 something BC. And you're like,
1:17:33
well, how do they know where they get that from?
1:17:37
And you can do generations backwards from...
1:17:40
Like Jesus. And the downside to that is it's
1:17:44
assuming that, one, the genealogies are complete.
1:17:47
Right. And that we have all, like, by being complete
1:17:51
that we have them all. Well, I wouldn't necessarily
1:17:53
argue that the completion of Adam to Jesus is
1:17:57
not complete. Yeah. But specific timelines are
1:18:03
not necessarily valuable. But who begot who?
1:18:08
Yeah. Is valuable. I think that is valuable and
1:18:11
that's valuable. Yeah. And I think that's accurate.
1:18:14
Yeah. Because I guess my point even with that
1:18:17
is, you know, we've even knowingly throughout
1:18:20
history, we've seen people change the year. Yes.
1:18:24
Because they want to rule in a certain year because
1:18:26
it's symbolic. Yes. And so a king will be like,
1:18:29
it's not the year 800 anymore. It's the year
1:18:32
1000. Right. And they're like, oh, okay. Yeah.
1:18:37
Yeah. that's uh yeah so yeah so i guess all that
1:18:42
to say how old is the earth is that um to summarize
1:18:47
what you just said real quick is yeah yeah the
1:18:49
writer here is not interested in telling us how
1:18:52
old the earth is right what he's more interested
1:18:55
in is hey this is the guy this is yahweh who
1:18:59
ordered chaos right who brought order to chaos
1:19:02
right Yeah, he didn't order a chaos. No, he's
1:19:05
like, hey, can I get an order of chaos? Let me
1:19:07
get a side of Leviathan on my chaos. Yeah, I'll
1:19:10
have some of those curly fries too. But yeah,
1:19:14
so then when it comes to the question, as you've
1:19:16
asked, is how old is the earth? Yeah. Only God
1:19:20
knows. Three, two, one.