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When Ancient India Beat Machiavelli to the Punch · Ridiculous History

• 0:23
  Speaker 1: In the world of business, self improvement and management courses,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: there are several books that you will continually encounter, things like,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: you know, The Art of War by Sun Zoo or
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: perhaps just as famously, The Prince by Nicola Machiavelli. My
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: name is Ben, My name is Nolan Ben. Your Machiavelli
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and accent was on point. Thank you very much, Thank
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: you so much. When you and I have done Italian
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: accents in the past, we have endeavored not to go
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: too far into uh cartoon in land. So it's it's
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: been a day by day thing for both of us.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Or maybe I was just trying to employ flattery to
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: get you to do what I want. How Machiavellian indeed?
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: And how could we mention Machiavelli and the Prince without
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: of course mentioning our own uh mentor in the lawful
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: evil alignment super producer Casey Pegram. But he seems so
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: nice listen that, so it's such a delightful sound. How
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: can he be such a monster? Well, what is what
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: is a monster? Really? That depends on perspective. What is
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: a person? Right? What is a question? We could go
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: we could go down this rabbit hole, but instead, let's
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: talk about Machiavelli just a little bit. Uh. This, this
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: author of The Prince has become in many ways synonymous
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: with unethical dealing, right, wherein all actions are rated as
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: good if they benefit the person committing those actions, double dealing, treachery, schemering, deceit. Indeed,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: so you'll find things like this The Prince is published
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: in fifty two, and you'll find quotes in there such
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: as A prince never lacks good reasons to break his promises.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: M what a douche. I don't know. I don't I
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: don't know if we should be so quick to judge.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I'm on the fence about it, because you can see
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: the utility of the book. I had to read it
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: in grad school. Actually, I'm sure you studied international affairs,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: and this is something that would certainly come into play
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: with things like diplomacy. I mean, a little healthy subterfuge
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: can go a long way, or a little bit of
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: a healthy flattery could maybe get someone to do exactly
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: what you want without having to strong arm them, make
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: it seem like it was their idea to sort of
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: accept them as it were. And you and I, in
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: the course of preparing for this episode, discovered that maybe
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: the Prince is not as original as we once thought
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: it was. Yes, you've arrived the topic of today's episode.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Let's see if I can get this pronunciation right. It's
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: a little book, a little known book, and I don't know,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I mean generally little known, certainly known to some called
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: the Arthur Shastra. Well done, Did I get it? I
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: think you did. I think you did? The Arthur Shastra.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: What's this book about? Well? This book, um was actually
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: very recently discovered, and only I think the early nineteen hundreds.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: It had been transcribed from an original copy onto I
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: want to say a palm leaf for a series of
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: palm leaves, isn't that right? Ben? In this book? The
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Arthur Shastra was most likely written by a group of authors,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: but is typically credited to a man named Cotillia, who
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: served as an advisor to Chandra Gupta, who was the
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: ruler of the Iron Age civilization of the Marian Empire,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: which was a vast section of northern India. Um and
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: it was actually one of the earliest ruling societies in
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: the continent of India. Yes, and Cotulia, we believe now
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: was the pen name for a minister named Chanakya. But
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: as as No points out, this probably wasn't just one
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: person writing. The text itself is divided into fifteen books
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: that function as a primer for kings right. It covers
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: military subjects, political economic subjects that the name Arthur Shastra
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: the concept translates to like means of life or worldly success.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Pro tip if you run it through your Google trans Late,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: it will tell you the translation is economics, and I've
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: also seen it written as science of Politics or the
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Science of Political economy. Those are also pretty commonly accepted translations. Um.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: But the reason that this gets lumped in with Machiavelli,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: who is much more well known comparatively, is that it
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: also dealt with a lot of that kind of shady
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: subterfuge um manipulative techniques that Machiavelli dealt with and writings
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: like The Prince, And in addition to things like how
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: to set up a ring of spies and manage your
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: secret agents, it gives suggestions like a king should fake
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: divine miracles in order to impart a sense of almost
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: godlike power to his his subjects, not just credibility, but
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: they get into the brass tacks of it. And they
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: say you should go to state temples fake a miracle
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: so you'll increase your revenue from pilgrimages, so people will
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: get taxed to go see that part where you know
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: you made a statue cry milk or something. And this
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: is fascinating because the book itself predates the prints by
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: about one hundred years or so. And I believe that
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: the copy we found in the early nineteen hundreds we
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: being human civilization, not just Casey and Nolan myself. Uh,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: this was a copy of a copy, right, It had
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: already existed in some other form. So we know that
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: this book was valuable enough to be transcribed. And it's
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: a really unsentimental read. You can find free translations of
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: it online. You can download the PDF and and check
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: it out firsthand. But in this in the Arthur Shastra,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Cortilia openly writes about stuff like assassinations, when you should
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: kill your family members? Uh? And as Noll said, how
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: to manage secret agents. Also, when is it useful to
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: violate a treaty? Yeah, any time it suits you, right right. Uh.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: This this draws comparisons, of course to the Prince, because
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: it is seen as intensely a moral right lacking morals,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: and it it makes me think of, um, you're familiar
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: with D and D right, dungeons, dragons and stuff. So
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: there's this concept of alignments that go either from good
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: to evil or lawful to chaotic, and this counts as
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: a lawful evil, which also, you know, I think is
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: the alignment of the quister. Oh yeah, for sure. Who
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: also is in real life actual facts a dungeon master
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: or I could see it. I mean he has a
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: dungeon and he is the master of it. That's where
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: he dwells. Oh man, he might be in he might
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: be in the studio now, and we don't know. He
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: is such a creature, but he will. He will eventually return.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: If this is your first time tuning in and you're
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: thinking Ben Noel, super producer Casey, who is this quister
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: you talk about? Just stick a stick around in one
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: episode or another. It'll be time. Oh gosh, I feel
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: like maybe we're I know, we're sort of whistling in
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: a graveyard here, but maybe by talking about it, he
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: won't show up this episode. Anyway. Back to Cartelia, there
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: are actually quite a few pretty serious differences between his
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: writings and marca Velli. Right, Yeah, this is something that
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: you and I were chopping it up about, and you
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: brought up a point that I feel they feel is
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: pretty observant and I would agree with, which is that
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: you see this as more of a I don't know,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: would you say, a slightly better moral character to this work.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: It does feel that way. Um, it certainly doesn't seem
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: to lean quite as heavily on that deceitful manipulation that
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: marca Velli was so fond of. See, I think I
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: think that's a valve point. It's strange because people still
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: seem somewhat divided on this. You know, there are some
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: people who will prefer one over the other, or feel
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: like one is maybe less unethical. I feel like, I
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: can't say more ethical less unethical. It's actually a favorite
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: book of Henry Kissinger. In his work World Order, he
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: refers to this ancient Indian treatise as something that lays
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: out the requirements of power and the dominant reality and politics. Yeah,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: and you were mentioning to me off air that this
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: um kind of combines the ideas behind Confucianism and legalism
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: in a sort of this hybrid very functional philosophy of governing.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: It even goes so far as to set up kind
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: of a schedule for a ruler. Um that that I'm
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna give you a snippet of I think
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: this is great. So in your first ninety minutes of
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the day, at sunrise, uh, you the ruler should go
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: through the various reports and documents and you know, right
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: checks and sign papers in the like what have you.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Then the second ninety minutes is when you should sort
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: of hold court and allow people to present their grievances
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: to you, um, you know, public audiences, let's call it.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: H Then in the third ninety minutes, have a little
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: breakfast and um, you know, maybe take some personal time,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: do some set ups and pull ups. I know you're
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: fond of doing that. Ben, have a little bath, a
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: little spa, you know, read a book whatever. Then we're
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: into the fourth ninety minutes when you get to meet
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: with all of your cabinet and your ministers and the like.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Then the fifth ninety minutes is when you should write
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: your letters. Um. And then the last ninety minutes is
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: when you take a lunch. Apparently, yes, that's a late lunch.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: It's a late lunch. And also it's pretty demanding schedule.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: We found that this bakes in about what five hours
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: of sleep and thinking roughly four and a half less
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: than five. Yeah, so you really um have to burn
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: the candle at both ends to be a good leader.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Um as far as Cartilia was concerned, and this was
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: enormously influential in ancient and class passical India, but as
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: a result of invasions and conquests, it disappeared from widespread
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: usage sometime in the twelve or thirteen centuries. So that's
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: you know, that's the long and short of how we
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: how we lost it, which is a shame because you
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: have to wonder, you know, in the intervening centuries, how
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: knowledge of this text may have changed things, especially you know,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: in the centuries before the publication and spread of The Prince. Again,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: these books are related, but there by no means exactly
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: the same. It's just this is the earlier record espousing
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: this brutal realism that most people associate with Machiavelli. So
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: it's much more an example of parallel thinking than it
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: is somebody ripping off somebody else. Right, Yeah, but how
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Machiavellia would it have been had Micha Velli discovered this
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: book and just not told anyone one. Thing I thought
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: was really interesting that that we both came across was
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: this idea of the mandala theory, um, which I think
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: is super cool. He uh. Cartillia lays out, um the
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: idea of the universe as being the mandala a series
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: of concentric circles, with your particular kingdom or culture in
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: the middle, and then the concentric circle outside of that
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: is your enemy, and the concentric circle outside of that
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: is your enemy's enemy and therefore your friend, and so on.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: And it's just an interesting way of kind of like
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: figuring out alignments. And uh, I thought it was a
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: really cool kind of visual device. Um he he had.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: He actually has twelve levels of these concentric circles and
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: gives specific advice um on how to deal with them
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: according to which part of the mandala you find yourself
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: him right. Yeah, this, this author, this group of authors,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: is all about list depending on the position of a
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: state in these concentric circles of this mandala that Noel
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: just laid out here very well put my day. The
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: author recommends different types of foreign policy. Do you pursue peace?
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Do you pursue war, do you pursue neutrality? Do you
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: prepare for war in a public way that signals it
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: to your enemies? Do you seek protection from another state?
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Or and this is the this is the weirdest one,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: and he writes so openly about this. Do you practice duplicity?
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Do you do you pursue peace and war at the
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: same time with the same kingdom. Is that sort of
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: a double agent kind of scenario or you're sort of
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: playing both sides? Yeah, I totally could maybe have some
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: rumors or leaks spread that you're preparing for war or
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: something while you offer peace treaty. I mean, that's complex statecraft.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I wonder what would happen, kind of a false flag scenario.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: We go, Yeah, there we go, and we might be aching.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: This sound like a super villain textbook. But what's fascinating
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: about it is it proves a long standing argument or
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: tenant or position in international affairs, which is that state
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: actors behave rationally and states do not have friends, they
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: have interest. So whatever neck of the global woods you
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: live in, when one are your politicians is telling you
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: that there is a friendship between your country and another country,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: what that really means is they're cooperating because their interest aligned,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, it's true. And that's
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: why it kind of becomes interesting when you start applying
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: this idea of machiavellian is m to like an individual
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: rather than a state actor, you know, because as it
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: turns out, it's not necessarily the people that behave in
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: these ways. Isn't because necessarily they've read the Prince or
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: they've read the Arthur shastra Um. It turns out, psychologically
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: certain people are just predisposed to being manipulative. And in
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: the nineties seventies, a psychologist by the name of Richard Christie,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: along with his research partner Florence Guys, developed a test
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: of Machiavellianism called the wait for it, the mock four.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: I love that name, and I'm so glad that you
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: introduced this testament as well as to Casey and you
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: had the proposal that we all take a version of
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: the mock for test, which is available online. I did,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: and we have not shared our scores with each other. Right,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: we don't know cases he doesn't know ours. We're all
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: we're all kind of in the dark. And folks, if
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: you want to take this along with us. You can
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: go to open psychometrics dot org slash tests slash M
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: A C H dash I V. Those are caps the
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: mock four parts, so M M A C H dash
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Roman numeral four. So there there's some interesting things about
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: this test, and I'm wondering I want your to take.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Do you think we should just tell each other our
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: scores and then uh talk about the test a little
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: or do you think we should talk about the test
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: and then tell each other our scores. Let's talk about
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: the test a little bit. Let's set up with the
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: you know, let's just give a little introduction to the test. Okay, sure.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: So this is a series of what's around twenty questions,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: that's right. I think it was twenty on the nose,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: it's twenty questions on the knows you have five possibilities.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: These are all questions that ask whether you agree or
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: disagree to a statement, or if you remain neutral, and
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: to what degree you disagree or agree right that being disagree,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: slightly disagree, neutral, slightly agree, or agree, um and again.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: This test was developed by Richard Christie and Florence L. Guys,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: and it was released in the seventies that began their
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: research on it in the sixties um and they compiled
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: a list of statements from Marcavelli's various writings, and they
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: put them to you and ask you to weigh in
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: on whether you which level of agreement or disagreement you
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: have about that idea. And these will have just to
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: give you a taste of the statements will be reacting to.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: These are statements such as, never tell anyone the real
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: reason you did something unless it is useful to do so,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: that's not so shady, and it's also kind of ague.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Or one should take action only when it is morally right.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: The best way to handle people is to tell them
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: what they want to hear, or things like it's hard
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: to get ahead without cutting corners here and there. And
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: there are also questions that don't come from the book
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: to our statements. Rather sure, like, you know it is
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: possible to be good in all respects. Would you kill
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: a puppy in cold blood? Would you kill a puppy
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: and warm milk? Whatever, whatever, whatever your flavor is. So
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: there are also some gut checks from the scientists where
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: they say, are you responding honestly to this quiz? And
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: of course it's an honor system. I didn't get that one.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: You didn't get that one. Oh wait, because there's the
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: option after you complete the quiz to answer additional questions.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I didn't do that. I never, I never. I never
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: go the extra mile with these kinds of things. It's
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: like when I do tech support and they say, would
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: you fill out a short survey after you complete your
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: tech support request? I always decline. Every single time. I'll
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: usually decline this survey. But if I've had to be
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: on the phone with a living human being, then I
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: always love to ask them if they get any sort
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: of kudos for customer compliments, and unless they do an
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: absolutely terrible job, I'll have them transfer you over to
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: their manager and I'll just say this person is great. Uh,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: they should get a raise. They're awesome. Ben, you are
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: a much better person than me, and I think that
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: will prove out in the scores of the mock four tests.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Are you prepared? I'm prepared? Should we say it at
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the same time? Okay, you first, I was machiavelliam. I
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: thought you'd be pretty high. No offense. I was seventy four. Ben,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: you must really think I'm a monster. Well again for
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: this whole episode. I'm the one who saying we shouldn't
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: be so quick to judge or call anybody a monster. Now,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: to be fair, I answered slightly disagree quite a lot.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: I felt like it punished me a little unfairly because
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: some of these questions were kind of broad, um, and
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: they didn't really have a hard yes or no answer,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: like you know, no, I would not kill a puppy.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: But also, I don't really think that everyone is inherently good.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: I don't think that makes me a bad person. I
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: do think everyone else is kind of a bad person. Sure,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: and there's another Okay, so there are two interesting things
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: about this test that we should definitely point out. First,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: your results will probably change as if you take this
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: multiple times, and those changes will likely depend upon your mood.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: So if you are feeling super warm and fuzzy and
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: something really nice has just happened to you, then you're
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: going to be more likely to say that you think
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: all people have some sort of goodness in them. Right,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: this is true. This is true. That's a very good point, um,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: And we have kind of missed the most important detail
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: of all uh to prove whether or not our super
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: producer Casey is as much of a monster as I
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: accused him of being at the top of the show.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: That is true, Superproducer, Casey, pegram moment has arrived and
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: we are very very curious to hear your results, sir.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: All right, well, I'm actually currently finishing up the last
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: few questions on that extended questionnaire, so I opted in
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: as well as you've been. That might give you a
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: little bit of an indicator at which direction we're heading
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: in here. Do you feel good about your choice though, Casey,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: I was in a very mellow mood just now when
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: I took this, so I'm I'm I'm probably gonna be
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: uh more more of the live and let Live hippie
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: variety today and those additional questions to paint the scene
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: for everybody. Those additional questions are things that will help
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: the researchers so they don't necessarily deal with Machiavelli and stuff.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: They're or like demographic questions. Uh do you know the
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: definitions to these words? So it don't affect your score though, No,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: You're just your score ends before the extra questions. And
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: I just want to point out that hippies can be manipulative.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: To Casey, if you heard of the Manson family. Well,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: the extended questions are just to give a helping hand
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: to those researchers furthering their work. I'm getting really worked
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: up about this, you guys, Casey, I must know your score,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: all right, I've just found out seconds ago when I
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: clicked continue. Can you put a could you? Could you
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: put a drum roll in? Absolutely all right? And my
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: score is man, Casey's the best one. He's the best one.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm on on the low end of the curve. Actually,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: I'm like on the slope going up to the middle.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: I'm on the fat part. Yeah, the curve shows us
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: that an aggregate the largest amount is going to be
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: just under seventy. It looks like but doesn't don't I
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: score points for feeling guilty that I scored so high?
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: But do you really feel guilty or is it? Is
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: it part of the part of the show, because I
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: could see how Machiavelli or Katilia might argue that it's
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: smart to signal that. But I also don't think you
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: should feel bad. I don't even know anymore. So well,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: so we pointed out that the test will probably change
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: depending on your mood. Casey said it was an MLO
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: mood crap test. And and additionally, if somebody is truly machiavellian, Casey,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: then it's not hard to engineer a low score on
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: this test. Casey, that absolutely well, I was kind of
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: you know, I might have been leaning that way a
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: little bit. So to the continued, the proof would be
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: in the putting of your actions, sir, I did not
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: mean that laugh to come out so sinister. See what, No,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: none of us knows anymore who we are. We're all
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: doubting and questioning ourselves because if it's blasted internet test,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: because we are old friends, I will make a confession
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: to guys, I looked up the average beforehand and aimed
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: for that. Wow, and I still got a little bit higher,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: you son of a son in law. Yes, is so.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: And so indeed, it just goes to show that these
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: questions that we're still asking today as individuals, as businesses,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: as organizations, as governments still were relevant thousands and thousands
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: of years ago and will likely be just as relevant
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of years from now. Yeah, and it
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: turns out, no surprise, the Arthur Shastra has played a
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: big role in the political identity and culture of India. UM.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: It is considered a classic of diplomacy, and there are
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: quite a few universities and some diplomatic offices that have
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: been named after the likely author Cartilia to celebrate this work. Right,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: this is a prof ourly important book and if you
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: if you haven't heard of it before this episode, and
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: you happen to enjoy the prints, we highly recommend you
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: check this out again. It's free online. You can get
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: a paperback copy pretty easily via Amazon or your favorite
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: used bookstore. And speaking of the prints, I just wanted
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: to acknowledge that we are podcasting today the inaugural recording
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: in our new studios at How Stuff Works HQ. UM.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: You can picture kind of a giant shipping container in
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: a room, UM, and Ben and I are inside of
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: that at this lovely mahogany would table with our new
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: fancy microphones and we have our own little headphone boxes.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, I'm nerning out about it. I kind
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: of set it up and it's the kind of stuff
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: that excites me. But it's great. And Casey's out there
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: on the outside through the window and he's got his
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: own mic and got a cool ikea China ball hanging
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: from the ceiling. And I don't know the reason I
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: said the princes, because I think we're gonna the studio
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Prince right, We've arrived, We're we're moving on up. This
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: is this is a big step for us, and we've
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: got to send some pictures out. This is the first studio.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that we would just
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: hang out in for funzies. It's right, it's very very comfy.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: And you know, we'll we'll hop on the social media
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: train soon and post some pictures. And we have a
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Facebook group, now, don't we. I think the ridiculous historians right, Yes,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: that is correct. If you are inclined to Facebook, love
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: things both historical and ridiculous, join us. You can see
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: some stuff that may or may not have made it
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: to the air, get a peek behind the scenes, and
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: also here from some of our peer podcast and it's
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: a fun place to share articles and maybe we can
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: delve into for future episodes of the show. And if
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: anyone feels inclined to be a moderator, if you're into
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing, shoot us an email and we'll
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: talk about it. And while you are on the Internet,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: regardless of your results on the mark for quiz. Feel
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: free to drop by iTunes or your platform of choice
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: and leave us a review. Let us know how we're doing.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: It's okay if it's just to manipulate us into liking you.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: As long as it's positive, it will totally work. Absolutely
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: I can guarantee that. So this will conclude today's episode,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: but not our show. Joined us next time as we
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: cover the killer marketing campaign behind Guy Fox v for Vendetta.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: I just said the name of the movie. I don't
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: know why. I just said that I like the film,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: though the comic is better. Yeah, the graphic novel is
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: uh is a fantastic read as as a matter of fact,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't want us to be the people
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: who are always saying the book is better than the movie,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: but in this case, I think it's true. Not what
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: the episode is about, but we will dig into that
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: fabled British figure Um and his bungled plot. So join
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: us in the meantime. You can find us on Twitter,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: you can find us on Instagram, you can find us
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: on our Facebook page, or you can write us a
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: good old fashioned email with your reactions to the story
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: of the Arthur Shastra. Have you read both this work
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: and The Prince? If so, how would you rank them?
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: How do you think they compare or contrast? Let us
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: know you can write to us directly. We're ridiculous at
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot Com. So, as always, thanks to
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: our slightly less suffering um and and totally not evil
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: unless you know he is, super producer Casey Pegram. Thanks
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: to Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Also thanks to
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: our regular contributor Lori L. Dove, the author of Ridiculous
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: History Ancient India beat Machiavelli to the punch by one thousand,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: eight hundred years, And of course, most importantly, thanks to
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: you for checking out the show. We can't wait to
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: hear about your score.