Latest / Stories That Live In Us / Pennsylvania: Stashed-Away Secrets and Forgotten Family (with Jessica Rae) | Episode 117

Transcript

Pennsylvania: Stashed-Away Secrets and Forgotten Family (with Jessica Rae) | Episode 117 · Stories That Live In Us

0:00
Jessica Rae: There's a family secret, and you're just trying to get on the other side of it.
0:04
Jessica Rae: It can feel overwhelming, a little daunting, kind of scary, but I have found myself in this work, and yes, there has been pain.
0:18
Jessica Rae: There has been a lot for me to emotionally and mentally process.
0:23
Jessica Rae: But with all of that, there has also been an immense amount of strength and resilience that I have found.
0:35
Jessica Rae: I come from thousands of years of women who have survived and overcome the odds that we're against them.
0:48
Crista Cowan: Stories That Live In Us is a podcast that inspires you to form deep connections with your family, past, present, and future.
0:55
Crista Cowan: I'm Crista Cowan, known online as The Barefoot Genealogist.
0:59
Crista Cowan: Counting down to the upcoming celebration of America's 250th birthday, you'll meet families from each state whose stories are woven into the very fabric of America.
1:10
Crista Cowan: Tales of immigration, migration, courage, and community that remind us that when we tell our stories, we strengthen the bonds that connect us.
1:19
Crista Cowan: So join me for season two as we discover From Sea to Shining Sea the stories that live in us.
1:25
Crista Cowan: Some people come into family history with tales of being related to someone famous or infamous, or they start digging into their family history and discover heartwarming tales, or tales of courage, or tales of inspiration.
1:41
Crista Cowan: But the reality is that families are messy.
1:46
Crista Cowan: And all families are messy, and families have always been messy.
1:51
Crista Cowan: That is not anything you haven't heard from me before.
1:55
Crista Cowan: But sometimes the messiness makes it a little bit hard to wade through.
2:02
Crista Cowan: And so sometimes when we start climbing our family tree, we realize that we have to confront really difficult things.
2:10
Crista Cowan: Things like mental illness or addiction, things like slavery, things like very horrible crimes.
2:19
Crista Cowan: People have always peopled.
2:22
Crista Cowan: And those people are in somebody's family tree.
2:26
Crista Cowan: And I think every one of us has some of them in our family tree.
2:31
Crista Cowan: And so when we confront them, we have to confront what that might mean to us.
2:38
Crista Cowan: And it's okay once in a while to take a step back from that branch of your family tree or back from that research for a little while and focus on something else.
2:48
Crista Cowan: Or you can do what my guest today did, which is plow ahead straight into it, straight through it.
2:57
Crista Cowan: And not only that, she has shared it in little minute or two-minute clips all along the way as she's been making these discoveries on TikTok, on Instagram, on Facebook.
3:10
Crista Cowan: You may have heard it's Jessica Ray talk about her great-great-grandma Susan.
3:17
Crista Cowan: But today you're going to hear the story in a little bit of a different way, and maybe from a little bit of a different perspective.
3:24
Crista Cowan: If you're not familiar with the story, it's all about a woman from Pennsylvania who ends up in a mental institution.
3:32
Crista Cowan: But we'll let Jessica tell that story.
3:35
Crista Cowan: Enjoy my conversation with Jessica Ray.
3:38
Crista Cowan: Well, Jessica, thank you so much for being here.
3:40
Crista Cowan: I'm so excited to get to meet you in person.
3:43
Crista Cowan: I've been a follower and a fan for a while now.
3:46
Crista Cowan: Um, but I would just love to hear your origin story into family history.
3:51
Crista Cowan: How did you, how did you get started?
3:53
Jessica Rae: Um I have, since I can remember, have had an interest in my ancestry.
4:00
Jessica Rae: I'm a deeply curious person, and I feel a lot of respect towards my ancestors.
4:08
Jessica Rae: And so, like getting to know them has always been something that I've been curious to do.
4:15
Jessica Rae: But then I joined ancestry.com in my early 20s and started gathering as much information as I could.
4:25
Jessica Rae: And then, you know, as a slow roll for years and years and years.
4:31
Jessica Rae: And then um I came across a discovery last year that um changed my life forever.
4:40
Jessica Rae: And I made the decision to share that journey and discovery on social media.
4:49
Jessica Rae: And um that has been a wonderful journey.
4:54
Jessica Rae: And I've been sharing my content now for over a year about yeah, this journey.
5:01
Crista Cowan: Well, I'm really excited to hear that story.
5:04
Crista Cowan: Um, I'd love to know just a little bit more about the family you grew up in.
5:08
Crista Cowan: Like, were did you know all four grandparents?
5:11
Crista Cowan: Were you close with them?
5:12
Crista Cowan: What did that look like?
5:14
Jessica Rae: Yes.
5:15
Jessica Rae: So I grew up, I was born in California.
5:19
Jessica Rae: Um my parents unfortunately got a divorce when I was really, really small.
5:25
Jessica Rae: So, like my, you know, my mom and dad have always been separated since I can remember.
5:32
Jessica Rae: So I've always visited my dad, um, but I always lived with my mom.
5:37
Jessica Rae: I've always known both sides of my grandparents.
5:40
Jessica Rae: And then for a short period of time, actually like on and off throughout my life, I've lived with my maternal grandparents.
5:49
Jessica Rae: That's amazing.
5:50
Jessica Rae: Yeah, it's been it's wonderful.
5:52
Jessica Rae: We have a wonderful relationship, but I was always involved with my paternal grandparents too.
5:57
Jessica Rae: They lived in California when I was there, and then I would always visit my dad and my paternal grandparents during the summer, Christmases, all of that.
6:06
Crista Cowan: Did you stay in California or did your family move after your parents' divorce?
6:10
Jessica Rae: They stayed in California for a little bit, but eventually we moved to Arizona because my mom remarried and um my stepfather got a job here in Arizona.
6:22
Crista Cowan: Did you have siblings, lots of cousins, or was it just you?
6:26
Jessica Rae: I did not get a sibling until I was 11 and a half, almost 12.
6:31
Jessica Rae: And my mom and my stepdad had my little brother.
6:35
Jessica Rae: Um, so I was an only child for a long time there.
6:40
Jessica Rae: I got very good at independent play and like hanging out with the adults, you know.
6:46
Jessica Rae: Um, and you know what?
6:49
Jessica Rae: I had cousins on my dad's side, um, but we didn't get to see each other that often.
6:58
Jessica Rae: Um, so not a ton of cousins running around frequently.
7:04
Crista Cowan: You kind of had all the adult attention from your mom and your grandparents.
7:07
Crista Cowan: Yeah.
7:07
Crista Cowan: And so it kind of feels like maybe that might have lent itself a little bit to your connection to the past because you grew up in this adult world, maybe hearing stories from your grandparents ever.
7:18
Crista Cowan: Was that a thing?
7:21
Jessica Rae: Not unless I asked.
7:22
Jessica Rae: Or there was something that I was curious, curious about and I would ask.
7:28
Jessica Rae: My grandparents are of that generation where, you know, we don't talk about a lot of things, right?
7:38
Jessica Rae: So um, yeah, there wasn't really conversations being had until I would ask a specific question.
7:46
Jessica Rae: And even then, sometimes when I would ask a specific question, it would kind of be, you know, really pulling teeth.
7:55
Crista Cowan: Yeah, when what years were your grandparents born?
7:58
Crista Cowan: Mid 40s, 1940s.
8:00
Crista Cowan: Okay, so they're just kind of on that cusp of silent generation baby boomer.
8:04
Jessica Rae: Exactly.
8:05
Jessica Rae: Yeah.
8:05
Jessica Rae: Yeah, but that makes sense then.
8:08
Jessica Rae: They they it seems in in I could be wrong here, but and I there's something admirable about this, but they always just are, you know, let's leave that behind us, let's focus on the future.
8:21
Crista Cowan: Your innate curiosity then is kind of met with this um, maybe not um not hostility like some people encounter, or even stonewalling, but just kind of like a nobody's nurturing that curiosity in you as you grow up.
8:38
Jessica Rae: Yeah, no.
8:38
Jessica Rae: And sometimes it almost feels I don't think it's ever been said to me, but the energy I get back from the conversation is like, why do you want to know?
8:50
Jessica Rae: You know, or like, how is how is this important to you?
8:54
Jessica Rae: It's almost like they think this has nothing to do with me.
8:57
Jessica Rae: Right.
8:58
Jessica Rae: And, you know, of course it has everything to do with me, right?
9:03
Jessica Rae: It is literally why and how I got here.
9:07
Jessica Rae: And they just don't, I don't get the impression that they fully understand that or have the same viewpoint that I do with that.
9:14
Jessica Rae: Yeah.
9:15
Crista Cowan: Yeah.
9:15
Crista Cowan: Oh, okay.
9:16
Crista Cowan: So let's think, let's talk about this discovery you made.
9:19
Crista Cowan: Is it on your mom's side or your dad's side?
9:21
Crista Cowan: It is on my mother's side.
9:22
Crista Cowan: And it is through your grandfather, right?
9:24
Crista Cowan: Yes, exactly.
9:26
Crista Cowan: So um, how like you're building your family tree on ancestry.
9:31
Crista Cowan: How do you stumble into this discovery?
9:35
Jessica Rae: Um, I stumble accidentally.
9:37
Jessica Rae: Um I have been a member, like I said, for with Ancestry for a number of years.
9:42
Jessica Rae: And it it was always something like you put down for a little bit and then you sign back on and you see what's new, what's updated.
9:49
Jessica Rae: And it was um March of 2025.
9:53
Jessica Rae: I log in, I see that I have a new hint for my great great-grandmother Susan.
9:59
Jessica Rae: And I didn't have a lot of information on this uh grandmother.
10:04
Jessica Rae: So I click on her profile, and the hint is that she has been located in the federal census record.
10:10
Jessica Rae: I click on the federal census record, and it looks immediately very weird to me because it's a bunch of single names, not like households.
10:20
Jessica Rae: You know how the households you have the inditation.
10:23
Jessica Rae: And I find her on it, and next to her name it says inmate.
10:28
Jessica Rae: And then I scroll to the top of the federal census record and it says location Mayview State Hospital.
10:37
Jessica Rae: And I go to Google, Google Google, and I put in Mayview State Hospital.
10:44
Jessica Rae: And this is in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, by the way.
10:47
Crista Cowan: And for people who aren't familiar with Allegheny County, that's where Pittsburgh is, right?
10:51
Jessica Rae: Correct.
10:51
Jessica Rae: Exactly.
10:52
Jessica Rae: Yeah.
10:52
Jessica Rae: Yeah.
10:55
Jessica Rae: And exactly.
10:56
Jessica Rae: So I do a quick Google Mayview State Hospital, and I find out that it is a state mental hospital.
11:05
Jessica Rae: And in this moment, this is when I start to get goosebumps and sort of this like reaction to finding out this information because I'm a nurse and I'm a nurse who loves history.
11:20
Jessica Rae: And I, you know, before finding out this information, I am aware of the history of how we used to treat mental illness.
11:30
Jessica Rae: So finding out this information immediately just I felt devastated for her, honestly.
11:37
Jessica Rae: I felt so devastated.
11:41
Jessica Rae: So I then click over, and this is where it gets very weird, and I've never had an experience like it in since then.
11:51
Jessica Rae: Um click over to Google Images, and I see the picture of Mayview State Hospital, the red brick building, and I recognize it.
12:05
Jessica Rae: My with my whole body, I immediately, oh my god, oh my god, I know this place.
12:16
Jessica Rae: But it very quickly, this reaction turns um very confusing for me.
12:25
Jessica Rae: I get very emotional because the fact that I do recognize this place is impossible.
12:31
Jessica Rae: Like logically, it is impossible for me to recognize this building.
12:36
Jessica Rae: Like I said earlier, I was born in California, we moved to Arizona.
12:40
Jessica Rae: I still to this day have never been to Pennsylvania.
12:43
Jessica Rae: I have never been to Pittsburgh, even though my grandfather was born there and raised there.
12:51
Jessica Rae: My mom never took me.
12:53
Jessica Rae: Um, and then that building, as I researched more, Mavie State Hospital was demolished in like I think 2010, around that time.
13:03
Jessica Rae: And so I sort of started freaking out a little bit.
13:08
Jessica Rae: Um, because that doesn't make logical sense that I would recognize it.
13:13
Crista Cowan: Um before that, like I mean, you said you're a nurse, right?
13:17
Crista Cowan: So grounded in science.
13:18
Crista Cowan: Yeah.
13:19
Crista Cowan: Before that, had you entertained anything outside of the realm of science?
13:24
Crista Cowan: Are you a person of faith?
13:25
Crista Cowan: Or did you, you know, do you believe in the paranormal?
13:28
Crista Cowan: Like, is I mean, was this brand new to you, or is this something that you kind of had some familiarity with to lean into?
13:35
Jessica Rae: I I was I was not raised in a religion.
13:38
Jessica Rae: Um, I would say that as a curious person, I've always been open to everything.
13:46
Jessica Rae: You know, my stance is always I don't know.
13:48
Jessica Rae: So, you know, okay, you know, that sounds good, you know.
13:53
Jessica Rae: Um so but I will tell you since then, over this past year, I've definitely had a spiritual awakening of sorts this year.
14:09
Jessica Rae: You know, all of these things happening.
14:12
Jessica Rae: It's really opened my eyes a lot since having this experience.
14:17
Jessica Rae: I have read up on epigenetics and, you know, generational trauma and things being passed down.
14:25
Jessica Rae: And still to this day, I I'll never be able to say for certain what that was or why.
14:34
Jessica Rae: Um, personally, I think it's it was just something within me and my intuition and where I have come from telling me that I'm at the right place at the right time, and for me to figure out what's this about?
14:54
Crista Cowan: So you think if you hadn't had that visceral of a emotional or spiritual, whatever you want to call it, reaction to that building, that you would have been as motivated to dig into Susan's life as you were, was that the catalyst?
15:09
Jessica Rae: That is such a great question.
15:11
Jessica Rae: Nobody has asked me that specifically.
15:14
Jessica Rae: I would say without that experience that I had, I would have still dug my heels in.
15:21
Jessica Rae: And I'll tell you why.
15:23
Jessica Rae: Because when I discovered this about Susan, and and all of this happened so quickly, right?
15:31
Jessica Rae: In the matter of minutes, but there was something that I recognized of myself in Susan because I have had my own mental health struggles throughout my life.
15:48
Jessica Rae: I have been misunderstood.
15:52
Jessica Rae: I have watched immediate family members of mine struggle with their mental health.
15:59
Jessica Rae: And it has been very difficult for myself and very difficult for me to watch my family members go through.
16:06
Jessica Rae: So without having that experience, I think I would have really felt called to figure out her story because it doesn't sit well with me that I have a grandmother that I would later find out who spent over 30 years of her life in a state mental hospital.
16:34
Jessica Rae: And she deserved better than that, and she deserves to be remembered for more than a diagnosis.
16:44
Jessica Rae: So because I um I saw something of myself in Susan, I felt that I think that's what made me dig my heels in.
16:59
Crista Cowan: Yeah, that makes sense.
17:01
Crista Cowan: So was your first instinct to just dive into records on ancestry?
17:05
Crista Cowan: Was your first instinct to call your grandfather?
17:07
Crista Cowan: I mean, you have a relationship with him.
17:09
Crista Cowan: Was there any curiosity about whether or not he had a relationship with his grandmother?
17:13
Jessica Rae: So I texted my grandmother right away.
17:17
Jessica Rae: So his wife, she's the one who's on her phone and she's actually pretty savvy with her phone.
17:22
Jessica Rae: So I texted my grandmother right away.
17:24
Jessica Rae: She said, hmm, yeah, maybe kind of sounds familiar.
17:29
Jessica Rae: And I was like, okay.
17:31
Jessica Rae: Well, they were coming to visit us in just a couple of weeks.
17:35
Jessica Rae: So I told myself, you know, I'll wait to bring this up to them in person.
17:40
Jessica Rae: Fast forward a couple of weeks, my grandparents are here.
17:43
Jessica Rae: Um, we're in the living room, chatting, catching up, and I bring up Grandma Susan to my grandfather.
17:51
Jessica Rae: Now, my grandma Susan has had or sorry, she had four grandchildren, one of which is my grandfather.
18:02
Crista Cowan: From one child or multiple children?
18:04
Jessica Rae: Two children.
18:05
Crista Cowan: Okay.
18:06
Jessica Rae: Two children.
18:07
Jessica Rae: And so my grandfather is still living, and he has one cousin who is still living.
18:13
Crista Cowan: Okay.
18:14
Jessica Rae: Um, so we're in the living room, and I bring this up.
18:19
Jessica Rae: I said, you know, I call him Poppy.
18:22
Jessica Rae: I said, Poppy, I found your grandmother in a state mental hospital.
18:29
Jessica Rae: And um he actually really isn't facing me at this time.
18:36
Jessica Rae: He's kind of still facing the TV.
18:38
Jessica Rae: But I asked him, you know, what do you know about this?
18:42
Jessica Rae: He said, I never met her.
18:46
Jessica Rae: I knew that she was in some type of facility.
18:51
Jessica Rae: I was told that she died.
18:54
Jessica Rae: To which I said, Oh, that's interesting because she didn't pass away until 1969, which is even after my own mother was born.
19:06
Jessica Rae: So, you know, he was well into adulthood with his grandmother alive.
19:14
Jessica Rae: And when I said that, that she lived until 1969, he whipped around, and he was surprised to find this information out.
19:25
Jessica Rae: You know, his mouth kind of opened and he very quickly composed himself, turned away from me, faced the TV again, and he said, Well, we didn't talk about those things back then, right?
19:39
Jessica Rae: Which I know you know sounds familiar for that generation.
19:44
Jessica Rae: And um that's all I got out of him.
19:49
Crista Cowan: Well, because he didn't know, or at least didn't remember.
19:53
Crista Cowan: Yeah.
19:54
Jessica Rae: No, um, and now since then, um, you know, this has been a really long journey trying to figure stuff out.
20:03
Jessica Rae: Since then, I have tracked down my grandfather's cousin, who he has lost contact with decades and decades ago.
20:11
Jessica Rae: I tracked this man down, who I've never spoken to in my life.
20:15
Jessica Rae: I tracked him down.
20:17
Jessica Rae: Um, we spoke on the phone, and he actually told me a very similar story.
20:23
Crista Cowan: And is he older or younger than your grandfather?
20:26
Jessica Rae: He is a couple years older.
20:28
Crista Cowan: Okay.
20:29
Jessica Rae: And um, he tells a very similar story.
20:33
Jessica Rae: And in fact, he tells me I didn't even know her name.
20:39
Crista Cowan: What?
20:40
Crista Cowan: But were they living there in in the Pittsburgh yet?
20:43
Crista Cowan: Oh my gosh.
20:44
Crista Cowan: Yes.
20:46
Crista Cowan: And did they know their grandfather?
20:48
Crista Cowan: Yes.
20:49
Crista Cowan: Okay.
20:50
Crista Cowan: So the grandfather is the one telling the stories.
20:54
Jessica Rae: Yes.
20:54
Jessica Rae: So when I brought it up to my grandfather's cousin, I said Susan, and he was like, Who he said, oh, that must have been my grandfather John's wife.
21:08
Jessica Rae: Didn't even know her name.
21:11
Jessica Rae: So it's it's clear to me that Susan was a secret or um just somebody we did not talk about um when it came to her grandchildren.
21:28
Jessica Rae: Um and her story was lost every time.
21:34
Crista Cowan: And so so you have now spent the last year digging into her story.
21:38
Crista Cowan: And I know that there are still unanswered questions, but if you were to tell her story based on what you know now, right?
21:48
Crista Cowan: Like, like not your journey of discovering her story, but like actually, like if you were gonna honor her and tell her story, I would love to hear that.
21:56
Crista Cowan: Oh my goodness.
21:58
Crista Cowan: Okay.
21:58
Jessica Rae: Well, I just Want to say up front that her story is it is made up of strength, resilience, and perseverance.
22:12
Jessica Rae: Because my great-great grandmother Susan, she came to the United States in the year 1906 from what is now present-day Slovakia.
22:24
Jessica Rae: So she was an immigrant here.
22:27
Jessica Rae: Um, she came here to meet um her brothers and start a new life.
22:32
Jessica Rae: She meets a man named John and they get married.
22:36
Jessica Rae: And they Do you know how old she was at the time?
22:39
Jessica Rae: 17 when she came to America.
22:41
Jessica Rae: She came alone but to meet her brothers.
22:44
Jessica Rae: Yes, exactly.
22:45
Jessica Rae: She came alone but to meet her brothers.
22:48
Jessica Rae: And she then marries John in when she is 20 years old.
22:55
Jessica Rae: Yep.
22:56
Jessica Rae: And they uh start a family.
23:00
Jessica Rae: My great-great-grandfather John, he goes to work in this steel mill in Pittsburgh, which was a um very common for um immigrants at the time in Pittsburgh to go work in.
23:16
Jessica Rae: Um so they have a number of kids, they have four children, and then they have four more who all pass away as babies.
23:33
Crista Cowan: And and okay, first of all, wow.
23:36
Crista Cowan: Yeah.
23:36
Crista Cowan: Like, second of all, like how how what kind of a time frame are we talking about?
23:41
Crista Cowan: Like, is she having a baby every year?
23:42
Crista Cowan: Is that what's happening?
23:43
Jessica Rae: Um, about every two.
23:45
Crista Cowan: Okay.
23:46
Jessica Rae: She's having babies about every two years.
23:48
Jessica Rae: So when we get to the babies who unfortunately um don't make it, we're talking about the late 19 teens to the early 1920s.
24:01
Jessica Rae: Now, two of those babies die from respiratory issues.
24:07
Jessica Rae: So I'm thinking Spanish flu time, right?
24:11
Crista Cowan: Or just air in Pittsburgh back then.
24:13
Jessica Rae: Oh, yeah.
24:13
Jessica Rae: And correct.
24:15
Jessica Rae: Absolutely.
24:16
Jessica Rae: Then the the other two babies, they pass away on the death certificate.
24:22
Jessica Rae: It says um gastroeneritis.
24:27
Jessica Rae: Well, I did some research on this.
24:30
Jessica Rae: Oh, sorry, I'm so sorry.
24:32
Jessica Rae: It said convulsions related to gastroenteritis.
24:36
Jessica Rae: And as a nurse, I'm like, wait, what?
24:38
Jessica Rae: You know, like, what are we doing?
24:39
Jessica Rae: What's happening here?
24:41
Jessica Rae: And I did some research on this, and it turns out that what they actually passed away from was something called summer diarrhea.
24:51
Jessica Rae: So we're talking about a time where if we didn't have refrigeration, which my family absolutely did not, because they were living in poverty in Pittsburgh.
25:06
Jessica Rae: Um and during the summer months, when things would warm up, and if we don't have refrigeration, maybe we're having to give the baby some milk, some food, that food would spoil and cause some GI issues, which would lead to diarrhea, um, diarrhea.
25:25
Jessica Rae: And unfortunately, the baby wouldn't make it.
25:29
Jessica Rae: She had her and John had four babies that passed away.
25:34
Jessica Rae: And then they had their ninth and final child in um the 19, oh man, 1929.
25:44
Jessica Rae: Uh their last son, Joseph.
25:49
Jessica Rae: Now, another thing um that I need to mention about their life is that John, my great-great-grandfather, was abusive.
25:59
Jessica Rae: I found my grandfather documented being in the Allegheny County Workhouse prison.
26:10
Jessica Rae: And he was there on the log for abusing his family.
26:15
Jessica Rae: Now we are talking about the year 1932 that he is there.
26:24
Jessica Rae: And you know, unfortunately, husbands and fathers during that time could probably get away with um a lot of people.
26:43
Crista Cowan: I mean, was he someone who just had a violent temper, or was he an alcoholic, or like what like any clue about the contributing factors to that?
26:51
Jessica Rae: I think alcohol would have been a contributing factor.
26:54
Jessica Rae: Um I I don't have any other details uh about that, unfortunately.
27:00
Crista Cowan: But we're never trying to excuse that behavior, but we're always trying to understand, right?
27:05
Crista Cowan: Like, was he abused?
27:07
Crista Cowan: Did like something happened that led him to alcohol?
27:09
Crista Cowan: Like, like, or did he just have a violent temper that he couldn't control?
27:14
Crista Cowan: Like that, like, and to think about the fact that you've got these children and this wife and they're living with this, but he ends up in prison.
27:22
Crista Cowan: So obviously somebody complained.
27:24
Jessica Rae: Yes, exactly.
27:25
Jessica Rae: So he got caught somehow, and and and unfortunately, I don't have the records, the Allegheny workhouse prison records.
27:37
Jessica Rae: The only thing that exists is this log.
27:39
Jessica Rae: And and in fact, this is really terrible.
27:43
Jessica Rae: But when I was uh emailing the archives, the Pennsylvania State Archives, they even told me that you know, people who were sent to the workhouse prison, their crimes weren't considered to be serious.
27:58
Jessica Rae: So documentation, court records for these individuals are not going to exist.
28:08
Crista Cowan: Right.
28:08
Jessica Rae: Which is, you know, really sad to hear and really awful to hear.
28:14
Crista Cowan: Um, so do you have any indication?
28:16
Crista Cowan: I mean, she's from Slovakia.
28:18
Crista Cowan: Where was John from?
28:20
Crista Cowan: Um, Croatia.
28:21
Crista Cowan: Okay, so they come from pretty religious countries.
28:24
Crista Cowan: Did they were they Catholic?
28:26
Crista Cowan: Were they like okay yes?
28:28
Jessica Rae: They were.
28:29
Crista Cowan: Okay.
28:30
Jessica Rae: They were Catholic.
28:31
Jessica Rae: Um, like I said a couple minutes ago, they were living um in poverty.
28:41
Jessica Rae: Later, um, in the timeline, I find my great-great-grandfather John living in a shanty on the Allegheny River.
28:50
Jessica Rae: So that's, you know, it doesn't get better.
28:54
Jessica Rae: Exactly.
28:55
Jessica Rae: That is the situation that my my family is in.
28:58
Jessica Rae: My great-great-grandmother Susan is is losing her babies.
29:03
Jessica Rae: She has an abusive husband.
29:06
Jessica Rae: Um, I know that one of her children, in fact, my great-grandfather, um is arrested a number of times as a young man.
29:18
Jessica Rae: He is stealing, and um he gets caught, and he is sent to the infamous Morganza Reformatory School in Pittsburgh.
29:31
Jessica Rae: And right around this time that my great-grandfather is running into trouble, John goes to the workhouse prison.
29:43
Jessica Rae: Susan, which you know, we're talking about the year 1932, but Susan leaves John.
29:52
Jessica Rae: I know.
29:54
Jessica Rae: I know.
29:55
Jessica Rae: How old are her children at this point?
29:57
Jessica Rae: So her youngest is hold on one sec, quit math, like three.
30:05
Crista Cowan: Okay.
30:05
Crista Cowan: Does she take the child with her?
30:07
Crista Cowan: I don't know.
30:08
Crista Cowan: Oh my goodness.
30:10
Jessica Rae: I cannot find any indication.
30:13
Jessica Rae: Now, all of her other children are much older.
30:16
Jessica Rae: Right.
30:16
Jessica Rae: Right, because she loves all those babies.
30:18
Jessica Rae: I missed it.
30:18
Jessica Rae: Yeah, she loves all those babies.
30:20
Jessica Rae: But Susan leaves John right about the time that he goes to the Allegheny Workhouse prison.
30:29
Jessica Rae: He gets out in June of 1932.
30:33
Jessica Rae: Susan is first admitted to Mayview State Hospital in September of 1932.
30:46
Crista Cowan: That's suspicious timing.
30:47
Jessica Rae: That's suspicious timing.
30:49
Jessica Rae: Now I worked with the Pennsylvania State Archives to get her records because they're old enough.
30:57
Jessica Rae: She has been gone long enough, and the records are old enough that I could request them.
31:03
Jessica Rae: I requested her records, and the only thing I received back was logs, were logs, admission logs, and discharge logs.
31:15
Jessica Rae: Simply a list of names where Susan is listed, you know, the date she was there.
31:23
Jessica Rae: There is no diagnosis, no reason for her admission.
31:27
Jessica Rae: I did not receive any patient records, um, no patient admission cards that they used to do at that time.
31:36
Jessica Rae: I got nothing.
31:38
Crista Cowan: Is there any indication on that log that she's like who she's being like, is he admitting her or is a doctor or great question.
31:48
Jessica Rae: So in the 1932 admission log, there is no indication, but Susan leaves at some point.
31:58
Jessica Rae: The discharge log does not exist for when she leaves, so I don't know.
32:03
Jessica Rae: I'm thinking it's like 1934, and she comes back in 1938.
32:10
Jessica Rae: Now that admission log in one of the columns says court ordered.
32:17
Jessica Rae: And so then I went on this very long journey of working with the Pennsylvania uh court system to see if I could find that court order.
32:32
Jessica Rae: And you mentioned several minutes ago that I still don't have answers.
32:36
Jessica Rae: And that's because that court order does not exist anymore.
32:41
Jessica Rae: And I have no records as it pertains to that admission.
32:51
Jessica Rae: I did find um a court record from the same year, 1938, just a little bit before she is admitted or readmitted.
33:05
Jessica Rae: And it looks like Susan got into a bit of a kerfuffle with a neighbor that she is living with, or near, sorry, next to.
34:00
Crista Cowan: So we've got her going in in 32, we've got her coming out in 34, we know she was back in 38.
34:05
Crista Cowan: Was she out that whole time, or were there or we just don't know?
34:10
Jessica Rae: Um, I believe she was out the whole time.
34:12
Crista Cowan: Okay.
34:12
Crista Cowan: So then she goes in back in in 38, and how long is she in that time?
34:17
Jessica Rae: She does not leave ever.
34:20
Jessica Rae: Um, she dies there in the year 1969.
34:25
Crista Cowan: So the first time it's just a couple of years, but the second time it's 30 years.
34:30
Jessica Rae: Yeah.
34:31
Crista Cowan: Wow.
34:31
Crista Cowan: And no real answers as to why.
34:34
Jessica Rae: No.
34:36
Crista Cowan: So what do you like?
34:38
Crista Cowan: Do you do you speculate?
34:40
Crista Cowan: I'm sure you speculate, but like, do you have a theory that you that you're leaning toward at this point?
34:47
Jessica Rae: Yes.
34:48
Jessica Rae: And like so many things in life, it's incredibly complicated and complex.
34:54
Jessica Rae: We are talking about a time in history where we did not have the medical understanding and knowledge that we have today.
35:06
Jessica Rae: We do not have the diagnostic criteria that we have today.
35:11
Jessica Rae: We do not have resources for mothers, maternal mental health, or just maternal health in general.
35:22
Jessica Rae: No resources at all.
35:24
Jessica Rae: Um a woman who is being abused, no resources for.
35:33
Crista Cowan: Um a woman going through grief, a woman who may have been struggling with some kind of alcoholic addiction herself, a woman with like there's so you know, she could have been going through menopause by that point.
35:45
Crista Cowan: Like so many things, right?
35:47
Crista Cowan: So many things.
35:50
Jessica Rae: Wow, she and she had the courage to leave her husband.
35:55
Jessica Rae: Yeah.
35:55
Jessica Rae: So now think about this single woman living on her own, Catholic woman, by the way, right?
36:04
Jessica Rae: Right, you know, in the 1930s.
36:06
Jessica Rae: I mean, we're talking about so many things that at this time society is almost not gonna deal with, right?
36:20
Jessica Rae: They they have oh man.
36:24
Crista Cowan: And if and if her husband had been wealthier, I might have blamed him, right?
36:28
Crista Cowan: Yeah, because like I have, I mean, not that my family was wealthy, but I have a great great-grandfather who had his second wife committed just because he didn't want to be married to her anymore and they didn't believe in divorce, right?
36:40
Crista Cowan: Like he just had her committed and then used that as grounds for to file for a divorce because he couldn't get it any other way, because he wanted to marry somebody else.
36:50
Crista Cowan: Like, men had some power in that situation.
36:53
Crista Cowan: And it sounds like maybe John didn't because of his poverty and maybe his own addictions.
36:57
Crista Cowan: But the timing of that first commitment is the fact that she left him.
37:02
Crista Cowan: Like, was it the fact that she was on her own that got her committed or like led her to devolve?
37:07
Crista Cowan: Or did he do it in some kind of retribution?
37:10
Crista Cowan: Like, there's so many questions, right?
37:13
Jessica Rae: Yes, there's so many questions.
37:15
Jessica Rae: So when I speculate, I mean it is it's very complex.
37:20
Jessica Rae: We're just talking about a time where, unfortunately, as a woman, an immigrant um living in poverty, dealing with some really difficult life issues.
37:41
Jessica Rae: And unfortunately, I don't think she could get the help that she deserved.
37:49
Jessica Rae: And um, it's absolutely heartbreaking to me to know now that she spent her life the rest of her life in an institution.
38:03
Jessica Rae: And her grand her own grandchildren who lived right there never knew her.
38:10
Jessica Rae: You know, you asked me about my own grandparents at the beginning of this interview.
38:15
Jessica Rae: I admire my grandparents so much, and I'm so lucky that I have had this time with them.
38:24
Jessica Rae: And that's so unfair for her to not have had that.
38:29
Crista Cowan: Yeah.
38:30
Crista Cowan: Well, I mean, you think about those older children, right?
38:33
Crista Cowan: Like this daughter who was an adult when this stuff started like really going down, and who probably wanted to have a voice or a connection, or maybe she didn't.
38:43
Crista Cowan: I don't know, right?
38:44
Crista Cowan: Like, like you, but you wonder how she processed what was happening to her parents and particularly to her mother, and the shame that I think often surrounds things like mental health issues.
38:57
Crista Cowan: And yeah, like, do you just shut down and quit talking about it?
39:00
Crista Cowan: Do you tell people that they died?
39:02
Crista Cowan: Like, uh, it's just baffling to me now, right?
39:06
Crista Cowan: Because hopefully we've advanced enough that you know, people are getting the help that they need and that it's okay to talk about it, and that you know, that the shame is not your shame to bear, and it's certainly not the shame of your children to bear, and yet probably there was a lot of stigma in the community around that, their faith community, their immigrant community, their like, yeah.
39:28
Jessica Rae: Absolutely, yeah.
39:30
Jessica Rae: Um the shame and guilt, I mean, that discovering this story, I mentioned earlier that I saw a lot of myself in this story, and it really just struck a personal chord with me, beside it being the fact that it's my great-great-grandmother, but it just felt so personal to me.
39:52
Jessica Rae: But there is also when I am thinking about Susan and everything she has gone through and how the family has handled it, and then I look at all of the generations to come and the continuance of mental health struggles and the continuance of shame and guilt.
40:20
Jessica Rae: And we're not gonna talk about this, and we're gonna sweep it under the rug.
40:24
Jessica Rae: It's such a clear generational trauma that is just trickling down, and here I am in the year 2026, you know.
40:40
Jessica Rae: I am Susan's great-great-granddaughter.
40:43
Jessica Rae: Great, great, yes, right, great-great-granddaughter, and I can still feel these themes in in our family, and and how it is so destructive to keep the secrets, and it breeds shame and guilt, and it's still something we're dealing with.
41:07
Crista Cowan: Yeah.
41:08
Crista Cowan: So as you've like made this discovery, obviously you've shared it, you've shared the whole journey, right?
41:14
Crista Cowan: Live as it happens on Instagram and like, but how have you shared this with your grandfather?
41:24
Jessica Rae: That has been very difficult.
41:26
Jessica Rae: Um, and I hope one day we can have another conversation or more conversations.
41:39
Jessica Rae: I respect and love my grandfather very, very much.
41:44
Jessica Rae: He has done incredible things for our family.
41:48
Jessica Rae: He moved out of Pittsburgh, um, you know, served in the Marines.
41:55
Jessica Rae: I mean, he's he's he's an incredible brave man.
42:00
Jessica Rae: Um but unfortunately, there is some pain there.
42:06
Jessica Rae: Pain and trauma that I don't understand.
42:11
Jessica Rae: So when it comes to bringing up this conversation with him, I have to be very careful because I respect and love him so much.
42:23
Jessica Rae: That's how I've been handling it recently.
42:27
Jessica Rae: I was at my grandparents' house last fall, and I asked to go through old family photos, and I found a family folder of old family photos of his side of the family.
42:43
Jessica Rae: And I was asking questions, you know, who's this, who's this, you know, that type of thing.
42:50
Jessica Rae: And he came over to the table and took one look at the picture, and his demeanor just totally changed.
43:03
Jessica Rae: Yeah.
43:04
Jessica Rae: Um, and so yeah, like I said, there is some pain there.
43:12
Jessica Rae: I can feel it, I can sense it.
43:15
Jessica Rae: And he's just not ready.
43:21
Crista Cowan: Yeah.
43:22
Crista Cowan: It's so interesting because we're a generation, I think, that is willing to wade into that because we understand somehow, maybe it's instinctively, maybe it's because we've seen it patterned just enough to know or hope that that's the case, that if we wade through it, that there is healing on the other side.
43:39
Crista Cowan: But I think for that generation in particular, it's so easy, so much easier to just like hold it in, right?
43:46
Crista Cowan: Because, you know, peace on the surface is better than no peace at all.
43:51
Crista Cowan: Um, and so yeah, I I can feel, I can feel through you his pain, which um which is hard.
43:59
Crista Cowan: Um Have you been able to have conversations with your mother about it, or are you met with something similar there?
44:06
Jessica Rae: No, my mother is a totally different story.
44:09
Jessica Rae: Um I update my mom.
44:12
Jessica Rae: She is extremely oh my gosh, I'm gonna try not to cry.
44:17
Jessica Rae: Um, she's extremely proud of me.
44:21
Jessica Rae: She understands how important this work is, how meaningful this work is to share the story of a woman who was locked away and who deserved a lot better.
44:43
Jessica Rae: So she's she's been wonderful for me and a great um a great support.
44:51
Crista Cowan: I love that you have that.
44:53
Jessica Rae: Yes, we do.
44:54
Crista Cowan: Thank goodness.
44:55
Crista Cowan: Um you probably aren't in a place right now, uh it sounds like, where you could, you know, answer the question to your grandparents about why digging into your history matters.
45:08
Crista Cowan: But if you had to answer that to, you know, a stranger on the street or to, you know, the next generation, how would you answer that?
45:19
Crista Cowan: Now, like knowing what you know, even even with the year of what you've been through so far.
45:26
Jessica Rae: Um, you will find yourself in it.
45:29
Jessica Rae: It can feel overwhelming and scary to do this work, especially if you know there's a family secret and you're just trying to get on the other side of it.
45:43
Jessica Rae: It can feel overwhelming, a little daunting, kind of scary.
45:47
Jessica Rae: But I have found myself in this work.
45:53
Jessica Rae: And yes, there has been pain.
45:56
Jessica Rae: There has been a lot for me to emotionally and mentally process, but with all of that, there has also been an immense amount of strength and resilience that I have found.
46:13
Jessica Rae: I come from thousands of years of women who have survived and overcome the odds that were against them.
46:26
Jessica Rae: And I am so unbelievably thankful for every single one of them, and it has given me a beautiful perspective on the life that I get to lead now.
46:41
Jessica Rae: And so I have found myself in that.
46:47
Jessica Rae: And uh it's a a beautiful gift.
46:52
Crista Cowan: It is, absolutely, and that was beautifully said.
46:55
Crista Cowan: As you uh, as you think about Pennsylvania, as you think about Pittsburgh, as you think about that state hospital that no longer is standing.
47:05
Crista Cowan: Have you had the opportunity to stand there?
47:08
Crista Cowan: Or is that something that you're thinking about doing at some point?
47:12
Jessica Rae: Yes.
47:13
Jessica Rae: Um that is absolutely on my list.
47:17
Jessica Rae: I haven't had the chance yet.
47:19
Jessica Rae: You know, unfortunately, I live all the way over here in Arizona.
47:23
Jessica Rae: Um, it is on my list.
47:25
Jessica Rae: I've, you know, told my husband a number of times we gotta just go for a quick weekend and and go visit um that really important place in in my history.
47:38
Jessica Rae: So I I look forward to doing that.
47:40
Jessica Rae: I'm gonna have to bring a little a lot of tissue with me.
47:46
Jessica Rae: But uh not only that, but because you know, my um Susan is buried there and I need to go pay my respects to her and my great-grandparents, and you know, yeah, it's important to me.
48:02
Crista Cowan: Yeah, yeah, there are there are roots there that run deep, it sounds like.
48:06
Jessica Rae: Yep, exactly.
48:07
Crista Cowan: Well, Jessica, thank you so much.
48:09
Crista Cowan: Thank you for sharing your story, but also thank you for sharing Susan with us.
48:14
Jessica Rae: Thank you so much.
48:15
Jessica Rae: Thank you for having me on.
48:17
Jessica Rae: I any opportunity to share her, it blows my mind that a woman who her own grandchildren didn't even know about, I have been able to share her story, and now millions of people have heard her story.
48:37
Jessica Rae: And I'm I'm so thankful for the opportunity and that I yeah was given this opportunity.
48:47
Jessica Rae: So thank you.
48:48
Jessica Rae: Studio sponsored by Ancestry.