Latest / CareTalk: Healthcare. Unfiltered. / Jean Drouin on Why Value-Based Care Will Succeed

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Jean Drouin on Why Value-Based Care Will Succeed · CareTalk: Healthcare. Unfiltered.

0:00
David: Value-based care is a great idea.
0:02
David: At least in theory, it's cheaper and it's better than fee for service, but the uptake is low because incentives are hard to align.
0:08
David: Available data and analytics are not up to the task.
0:11
David: It takes too long for providers to be rewarded, and payers and providers just don't trust one another.
0:16
David: With all these challenges.
0:18
David: Can value-based care succeed?
0:19
David: Today's guest clarify health.
0:21
David: C e o.
0:21
David: Jean Drew is here to explain why his.
0:24
David: Is yes.
0:25
David: Welcome to Care Talk America's Home for Incisive and sometimes clarifying debate about healthcare, business and policy.
0:31
David: I'm David Williams, president of Health Business Group.
0:35
John: And I'm John Driscoll, the president of Walgreens Health.
0:37
John: David, you're kind of stacking the deck against Jean.
0:40
John: I'm not even sure you know how to pronounce his last name.
0:43
John: I mean, I don't care, but I just attacking, attacking.
0:47
David: I got two jds on here.
0:48
David: One, I said, well, I got one John and one John that should clarify it.
0:52
David: Well, and one Sean.
0:53
John: Thank, thank, thank, thank you for joining.
0:56
John: You know, A A A A A A A care talk so you can kind of, you can turn this disbeliever into a believer.
1:04
Jean: Well, absolutely, and I, it's just dawned on me that we have the same initials, so I'll, I'll take that as a positive.
1:10
Jean: Oh, that's kind of a slow pitch for you conversation.
1:13
Jean: Yeah, exactly.
1:15
Jean: Yeah.
1:15
David: So, well, I can tell you at least one of the jds is gonna say something good, you know, and I, I know another John from Canada and, and he always says, now
1:23
John: you're getting distracted
1:24
David: to stop Parmesan.
1:25
David: That's what he said, Parmesan.
1:27
Jean: On topic.
1:29
Jean: You got a
1:30
David: question, John Jean, can
1:31
John: you tell us a little bit about why you think your digital health and analytics company is gonna make any progress when so many other digital health and analytics businesses have have though?
1:47
John: Well, they've certainly been profitable, but they haven't made much progress on value, which is really creating, you know, better healthcare outcomes at a lower.
1:56
John: .
1:56
John: Jean: Great question, John.
1:57
John: So I think what far too many digital health, um, companies learn the hard way is that.
2:08
John: It doesn't matter how, um, smart or beautiful or cutting edge one solution is in healthcare, if it can't fit into today's workflows in a way that ultimately drives bottom line roi, it'll be exceedingly difficult for it to scale.
2:31
John: So that's number one.
2:33
John: The other is to expect things to scale in healthcare at the speed they do in.
2:38
John: Industries, uh, well, we're gonna speak maybe about the NHS a little later.
2:43
John: The British have a great expression.
2:45
John: It's a fool's err.
2:46
John: Right.
2:46
John: Um, so you, you have to also be able to shift your expectations.
2:50
John: So I would say for us, at clarify, what's different is a couple of things.
2:55
John: One is when we set out to do this, we knew it would take a long time.
2:59
John: Uh, and then we also knew two cardinal rules of healthcare.
3:03
John: One is you have to figure out how to be able to fit in with today's payment.
3:09
John: And you have to go and pick workflows that you're going to improve, that lead more than, you know, two or three customers to say, Hey, that's interesting.
3:19
John: And ultimately lead hundreds to say, wait a sec, I need that.
3:24
John: And you know, one of the.
3:26
John: It's funny, maybe to say that an electronic health record story would be inspiring, but I do have to say that wouldn't be funny actually.
3:34
John: Either way,
3:35
Jean: it wouldn't be funny at all.
3:36
Jean: Right.
3:37
Jean: Uh, but I, I do admire Judy Faulkner for being at this for 45 years, right?
3:46
Jean: I mean, she started coding herself, uh, I think
3:49
John: in Judy Faulkner, the CEO and founder.
3:53
John: Epic.
3:53
John: Epic, which is the dominant healthcare, electronic medical record in all of the large teaching system hospitals in America.
4:06
Jean: That's right.
4:07
Jean: And I only mentioned that because people think, oh, Epic's the dominant electronic health record in these large hospitals, but it didn't happen overnight.
4:17
Jean: It's a 45 year story in that case.
4:20
Jean: And, uh, . Now look, value-based care,
4:23
John: you say that's going to be a long time to get a return for your investors.
4:28
John: You're really managing xray.
4:29
John: 45 years mean that's, I don't think that's exactly what they're expecting, dude.
4:36
Jean: No, you're, you're absolutely right about that.
4:38
Jean: So then you have to be clever about finding enough early adopters that really need what you have and, um, Here's what I would say regarding clarify.
4:50
Jean: What we're playing on is a big shift that's occurred in the last three to five years around how you can bring together massive data sets in healthcare on patient journeys in a way that wasn't possible before.
5:04
Jean: In and of itself, that's not enough.
5:06
Jean: What you then have to do is translate those insights into, can I help you refer better?
5:12
Jean: Can I help you, uh, lower total cost of care, et cetera.
5:16
Jean: Okay, so
5:17
John: just, just stepping back a second, just stepping back a second, clarify takes a lot of data and does what for who?
5:28
Jean: Ah, okay.
5:29
Jean: So here's an analogy that can be helpful.
5:32
Jean: The Bloomberg terminal in financial services, you could argue, democratize the ability to very quickly get at the data that's required to make better decisions about.
5:45
Jean: Imagine that in healthcare you had something like that on top of, in the United States, an intelligence repository on everything that happens in every patient journey, and you were able to then very quickly tease out because you now could see transparently what's actually occurring every day in healthcare for any individual through their journey.
6:14
Jean: Well think about what happens when you have that kind of transparency.
6:18
Jean: All of a sudden, you know who people are being referred to and what their outcomes are, how much the total cost is, whether a drug is having a positive impact or or not, and it may sound.
6:32
Jean: to those from outside of healthcare.
6:34
Jean: Like, well, wait a sec, don't you already have this?
6:36
Jean: Isn't that what the purpose of an electronic health record was?
6:38
Jean: But the, the truth is, we have never in healthcare up till now, been able to pull together at a national level, a comprehensive data set on what actually happens each and every day in the US health system.
6:53
Jean: So clarify effectively puts together the equivalent of a Bloomberg terminal on top of that.
7:00
Jean: Integration of various data sets to yield a view of every single patient journey in the US over the course of a year.
7:09
David: So, so let's talk about some of the things, uh, you mentioned in here.
7:13
David: So you talked about today's payment models and mentioned patient journeys, and how does this all fit in?
7:19
David: I mean, what, what do you mean today's payment model?
7:21
David: So payment model is just, I pay you, but what's value-based fee for service?
7:25
David: I mean, what, where are we with today's payment models?
7:28
David: What does that really mean?
7:30
Jean: The way in which we pay for healthcare in the US is often terms fee for service.
7:35
Jean: What it means is that when an individual provider of care performs a service, they note down some codes and they send a claim or a bill out ultimately to an insurer to then pay back.
7:50
Jean: And we as consumers of healthcare, Well, we experience it in terms of the letters that come back saying, Hey, you had a copay of X and here's how much we paid, and we don't really, it.
8:02
Jean: It's really hard, even for somebody who's in healthcare to understand what's going on.
8:06
Jean: But what fee for service basically means is whatever work is done is paid for without regard to what is the ultimate outcome or what the total cost.
8:17
Jean: You, you're paid for based on an agreed set of prices that have been negotiated by between the payer and the provider.
8:25
Jean: The issue with that is it encourages as much activity as possible, and so there's been a thought from a policy point of view over the last 20 or 25 years that somehow we have to figure out a way to quote unquote, pay for value, which effectively means.
8:45
Jean: trying to achieve some notion of what's known as the quadruple aim.
8:49
Jean: So what would four Aimes be in healthcare?
8:52
Jean: Well, one would be better outcomes.
8:54
Jean: Another would be efficient cost.
8:56
Jean: Another would be good patient experience.
8:59
Jean: And then the third would be that the clinicians also have a, a decent work experience in delivering the care.
9:05
Jean: So I think generally when people say, Hey, I want value-based care, they're saying I want those four.
9:11
Jean: You might add diversity, equity, and inclusion considerations today.
9:15
Jean: Um, and then, then the next question becomes, how do you pay to incentivize those outcomes?
9:23
David: I mean, I guess it shows why healthcare is a different kind of business, right?
9:26
David: Because I think about, I work with a lawyer or a plumber.
9:29
David: They do the work, they charge me for what they did, and if I don't like it, I go somewhere else.
9:35
David: And I have some notion about it.
9:36
David: They don't, I don't have like value-based electric.
9:39
David: That, you know, is how well my electricity works in the house and pay based on that, based at the end of the year and have a bunch of analytics for it.
9:45
David: So, I mean, does it even
9:46
Jean: make sense?
9:49
Jean: Well, you're, you've hit it on the nail.
9:51
Jean: I mean, healthcare is not a normal market because the recipient or the consumer, ie.
9:57
Jean: The patient, Is usually not the person making the economic trade off that's typically involved in working with an electrician or a, a lawyer, right?
10:09
Jean: Uh, and so you end up in a place where a surrogate, in this case, the insurer, is meant to ensure that you as the member or the patient, , uh, is able to get a good deal ultimately on that healthcare that you get.
10:33
Jean: But you're right, it is, it is an odd arrangement when compared to any other, uh, market out there.
10:43
Jean: And why, why this
10:44
David: notion about journeys?
10:45
David: Why, why is that relevant?
10:47
Jean: Ah, okay.
10:48
Jean: So really, really important.
10:49
Jean: So one of the.
10:54
Jean: , massive accomplishments societally over the last 40 or 50 years is the incredible advances primarily in the pharmaceutical industry, have made it possible for us to live quite long now with multiple chronic disease.
11:09
Jean: And so, you know, 50 years ago people went to the hospital generally, often they weren't gonna be coming out.
11:16
Jean: Right.
11:16
Jean: And you tended to have more, um, You know, visit based care.
11:24
Jean: What happens now though, is when people are living with chronic disease for a long time, uh, they need frequent tune-ups.
11:32
Jean: And so the concept of a journey then becomes quite important because, You now need a team of individuals, of experts to be quarterbacked by someone in order to ensure that your entire interaction with the health system over the course of a year gets to that quadruple aim.
11:53
Jean: And so to think about.
11:55
Jean: An individual moving through a journey through a year is very helpful because it gets us into more of a mindset that says, how can I optimize that journey?
12:06
Jean: Well, what does optimize mean?
12:08
Jean: How do I make it a better experience for the individual going through it?
12:12
Jean: How do I make it as efficient and effective as possible?
12:16
Jean: How do I ensure that it gets to the right outcome?
12:19
Jean: Um,
12:20
John: David, you need definitely need to tune.
12:23
John: You definitely need,
12:24
David: John.
12:24
David: I need more than one tuneup.
12:25
David: I like this idea.
12:26
David: You know, the new, the new cars can go like a hundred thousand miles without a tuneup.
12:29
David: I could use a tuneup every day, John, if that's available.
12:31
David: Yeah, no, I, I definitely,
12:34
John: so, so, Sean, I, you know, while you're kind of going on about the general contours of healthcare, and you and David are having a very general conversation that I'm, that's a kind of a yawner, honestly, why don't you tell us exactly who you sell to, what you do, and what the impact is so we can bring this back to earth?
12:55
Jean: Is that a question for me?
12:56
Jean: Or what?
12:57
Jean: No, no, no.
12:58
Jean: So look, no,
12:59
John: it's an insult to you.
13:00
John: It's a question to him.
13:01
John: I just wanna get both in.
13:03
John: Okay.
13:04
Jean: So we sell primarily to health insurers and secondarily to health systems and provide, wait a second.
13:12
Jean: I thought the health
13:13
John: insurers were the problem.
13:15
John: , like you just said, the health insurer, like you're kind of like putting the pin into them and now you're selling, you're selling ammunition to the enemy.
13:24
Jean: Well, John, you, you, you better than anybody else know that they're the ones sell to everyone please.
13:29
Jean: Purse strings.
13:30
Jean: Yeah.
13:31
Jean: Well, they, they hold the purse strings right.
13:33
Jean: In healthcare.
13:33
Jean: So, and if there's anything that's true about any market, understand how the incentives flow from how the money.
13:42
Jean: And in healthcare, the money flows from the employers and government to the payers, to the providers.
13:47
Jean: That's the way it flows, right?
13:49
Jean: So if we're gonna pay in a different way, in order to incentivize people to care in a different way, it has to involve the payers.
14:00
Jean: So what do we sell to the payers?
14:02
Jean: The struggle the payers have today is to be able to, in a timely way, report to clinicians how they have done in taking care of their patients and where it is they could have improved, and had they improved, it would've delivered better outcomes and less waste.
14:21
Jean: And what's required to do that is to have a trusted third party that sits between the payers and the providers and does two things, automates all of the contracts between the payers and the providers.
14:37
Jean: Where there's bonuses for quality and outcomes and whatnot, value-based contracts, but more importantly gives clinicians a view of if you were to do this, this, and that in a different way, everyone would be better off.
14:50
Jean: So
14:51
John: just to be clear, it's the payer, you're, you're selling to the health insurers cuz they've got the money they use you.
14:58
John: To figure out who to pay what to actually deliver a better outcome.
15:03
John: Why can't they just figure this out themselves?
15:05
John: I mean, they've got lots of money.
15:06
John: Ah,.
15:09
John: Jean: So you sound like creepy when you laugh like
15:11
Jean: that.
15:13
Jean: No, no, no, no.
15:14
Jean: Not all.
15:14
Jean: It's, it's the, it's the, it's, it's the reality of, of healthcare, which is it's very, very difficult to.
15:24
Jean: build a trusted benchmarking system that effectively does the equivalent of what sports analytics do in baseball.
15:35
Jean: So general managers in baseball, right?
15:37
Jean: They, when they decide, okay, it's worth my paying 30 million for this pitch or this batter they use.
15:45
Jean: metrics such as winds above replacement that give them a very clear value that against a certain difficulty of opponent, that pitcher is very good.
15:54
Jean: Doctors have the same need because every time you benchmark, they performance their performance.
15:59
Jean: They say, Hey, my patients are different, and by the way, their patients are always more complicated, which as we know is an impossibility, but that's how they all feel.
16:09
Jean: You need a massive national data.
16:12
Jean: And very honed analytical methods in order to be able to normalize for all of that.
16:18
Jean: It's very difficult for an individual payer to come up with that on their own.
16:24
Jean: So that's number one.
16:26
Jean: The second is the core capability of a payer isn't necessarily to build, um, software.
16:36
Jean: It is actually to pick and choose doctors.
16:39
Jean: So build networks, and in the past it's been to build policies to, you know, manage utilization.
16:46
Jean: So we would argue that someone who says, Hey, our core competency is going to be able to build.
16:57
Jean: most effective and efficient platform too, as you put it, report back to the clinicians on why they're getting paid, what they're getting paid, and how they can improve.
17:07
Jean: That's more a core capability, honestly, of folks who've built those kinds of platforms for the financial services industry, so that, that's the other reason.
17:17
David: Sean, one of the things I saw, you had a piece about, uh, micro incentives.
17:20
David: You know, you were talking about, uh, information being timely.
17:23
David: I know one of the challenges with value-based care is that data are not very precise, and so you can have something and.
17:29
David: Whether or not somebody's patients are more complex than somebody else's, it's really kind of hard to measure against a benchmark.
17:34
David: So it, it's a fair pushback from some of the providers and also just, gee, I did something one, you know, in January and then next January I'd get rewarded for it.
17:43
David: How does a micro incentives fit into
17:45
Jean: that?
17:45
Jean: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
17:46
Jean: So look, and this is where I'd agree with.
17:49
Jean: J wholeheartedly with John's skepticism on value-based models.
17:53
Jean: Most of the ones that exist today are what's called retrospective.
17:56
Jean: Look back, forget the fancy language.
17:58
Jean: What it means is 12 to 18 months later, somebody looks back at what you did 12 months ago and says, well, I can't really tell you why, but you're either getting a bonus or not, and you just have to live with it.
18:11
Jean: I mean, who wants that kind of a deal?
18:13
Jean: Yeah.
18:13
Jean: Okay.
18:15
Jean: behavioral economics, right?
18:17
Jean: So the world of Freakonomics would say, can you not come up with something where you reduce that lag dramatically, and you could go a month later or a week later and say, Hey John, last week you did 10 total joint surgeries and appropriately you moved seven of them from the expensive hospital and did them in an ambulatory surgery center.
18:39
Jean: It was actually better outcomes for those patients.
18:41
Jean: They went home more quickly, lower risk of infection, and by the way, it saved over those seven surgeries, $30,000 to the system.
18:52
Jean: Would it not make sense to say to the, to the provider, Hey, as a result of that, you are getting, I'll make it up $3,000 extra for having done the right thing.
19:02
Jean: So, so showing and that system of micro incentives is possible today.
19:06
Jean: Now
19:06
John: what you're, what, but what you're saying is, , just so folks understand it, that you're providing data on outcomes and costs that they, most patients probably think are already exist at their doc, at the doc and group level and hospital level.
19:26
John: And I think maybe you could describe a little bit of what ha what, what the before and after is for the doctor practices that you're working with.
19:35
Jean: Great question.
19:35
Jean: So, The before, so how, how does an orthopedic surgeon working in a practice today live?
19:43
Jean: Most orthopedic surgeons in community practice work in groups of anywhere from, you know, three or four to 30, they went to medical school and were taught to practice in a certain way.
19:55
Jean: Uh, and when they see you in their office, all they're thinking about in a fee for service system is, um, based on my training and how you're presenting, uh, here's.
20:09
Jean: The surgery that I'd like to do, and I've always done the surgery over there, so I'm gonna do it over there, and there is literally no information historically that's been provided on.
20:20
Jean: Well, you do realize that the cost of the surgery over there is $30,000 versus over here it's $20,000 and the outcomes are the same.
20:31
Jean: And by the way, over here might actually be closer for the patient and available more.
20:37
Jean: . Yep.
20:38
Jean: Um, whereas in this new world, what we're saying is, to John's point, the additional information on availability of appointment, total cost to the system, et cetera, would be a factor in their decision.
20:53
Jean: So long as the outcomes are the same or better.
20:58
Jean: So a lot of times
20:58
David: you see, you know, these high performance networks and things that are put out by the payers and you know, the suspicion, and I think a reasonable suspicion is that is just really based on cost.
21:08
David: You had some research recently actually about this question about whether more volume equals more quality, and pointed out that actually it's hard to find what the volumes are.
21:18
David: So you can, you could ask your doctor how many surgeries they've done, but they may not know, and you don't know if that's a good, good benchmark or not.
21:24
David: How, how does this all come together, sort of the volume.
21:27
David: The cost, the quality.
21:29
David: And are you adding new information to it, or is that information already sort of out there and available?
21:34
Jean: So what's been generally assumed over the last 15 to 20 years is that in particular, uh, procedural specialties.
21:46
Jean: So a surgery for example, or a scope, that kind of thing that if somebody does more of them, presumably they.
21:54
Jean: Better at them.
21:56
Jean: And they also get better when there's an exception, um, to the rule, right?
22:00
Jean: Like the bones are in a different angle, that kind of thing.
22:03
Jean: And sure enough, what you see from our dataset and we look, you know, at orthopedic surgery recently, is that those surgeons that do more than a hundred procedures end up being.
22:17
Jean: Far, far more, um, effective and efficient and deliver better quality than those that say only do 10 a year.
22:25
Jean: Now rationally that makes sense.
22:28
Jean: The, what you point out is it's very, very difficult to get, um, easily for a patient, a sense of, okay, for a heart surgeon, is it 30 a year or 200 a year that I should be looking for?
22:42
Jean: Uh, or for an orthopedic surgeon for a total joint, is it more than a hundred or, you know, more than 40?
22:48
Jean: And that's the work that needs to get done next to provide a sense of, um, you know, if you're out there looking around the kinds of questions that you should be asking about how many your provider does in.
23:03
Jean: , so, so Jean,
23:03
John: how, how
23:04
Jean: you know
23:05
John: this, describe the way you're describing it, I think simplifies what you're doing.
23:10
John: What makes your company clarify better able to do this?
23:16
John: Is it unique databases?
23:18
John: Is it the analytics you're doing or the way you integrate, as you were talking about before, software into workflow.
23:23
John: Like why you
23:24
Jean: versus somebody else?
23:30
Jean: Well, there's an element of having landed in this earlier than others and having been able to get this far, uh, and having aggregated all of this, um, data already.
23:43
Jean: So that's, uh, one piece of it.
23:46
Jean: The other is you have to be able to bring clinical E.
23:52
Jean: software building capability and operating know-how.
23:56
Jean: You really have to have all three in order to come out with a set of solutions that, uh, meet well, honestly, John, meet the realities of somebody in your seat because you, you know all too well that.
24:13
Jean: bringing in anything new, let alone something as important as the interface betw.
24:20
Jean: The reporting interface between, uh, a payer and their clinical partners is a daunting prospect for any executive and so, Just having, you know, five people show up and say, Hey, I have a really nifty AI and ML model, and it'll be really good at solving this point solution issue.
24:43
Jean: The issue is, is most issues in healthcare are ultimately not point solutions, right?
24:51
Jean: So, uh, being able to bring all of that expertise into one ultimately requires a very significant amount of capital upfront.
25:01
Jean: And some amount of creativity.
25:04
Jean: As you know, the market moves to be able to find the right initial customers to generate enough, um, honestly commercial progress so that investors are willing to continue to back the story.
25:18
Jean: So,
25:18
David: John, talking about somebody in, uh, John's seat, what do you think about the big retailers getting into value-based care?
25:24
David: Is that a fool's errand
25:25
Jean: too?
25:27
Jean: . No, I actually think it's really interesting, and I'll come back to the concept of journeys here.
25:33
Jean: One of the things you would think that the retailers would more naturally go to is the importance of delivering an end-to-end customer experience that causes a certain amount of loyalty on the part of the individual that associates with that brand.
25:53
Jean: You know, brands in healthcare are incredibly fragmented, particularly when it comes to where you might go on a weekly basis.
26:03
Jean: I think there's a really interesting opportunity for the likes of a Walgreens, a cvs, a Walmart, to say, you know what?
26:10
Jean: I already have a certain element of trust with a consumer on certain categories of things.
26:18
Jean: If I can deliver.
26:21
Jean: At a superior level from a patient experience point of view, and I stitch together for them in an easier way to consume the resources they need to get the journeys they need over the course of a year.
26:38
Jean: Um, that's potentially a really interesting thing.
26:43
Jean: Now, not surprisingly, everybody's saying they.
26:48
Jean: an element of primary care because the sense is that the primary care clinician can be the quarterback of these journeys.
26:56
Jean: Now, the question in my mind is gonna be, can you pay what's being paid to acquire these primary care practices today?
27:06
Jean: And.
27:07
Jean: You know, how long does it take to get a return from that?
27:11
Jean: I mean, it was really interesting to read that CVS is only expecting their acquisition of Oak Street to be accretive in year five.
27:19
Jean: So that's a big, bold bet.
27:20
Jean: It's a, it's a, but
27:22
John: they're, but they, but they're, but they're paying more.
27:23
John: They're paying more than we did, so we were buying, no, I, I think that, but Oak Street's a really great investment for.
27:30
John: Um, it's a mature, well executed, you know, managed care model in the Medicare space where they've, they've not always been consistently strong.
27:39
John: I think it's a really good investment for them.
27:42
John: You know, John, I think that what, what's hard for folks outside of healthcare to understanding a world that's digitizing is how little is accessible from an information perspective.
27:54
John: Analyzable from a relevance perspective and how hard it is to make relevant.
28:00
John: Data and analytics available to clinicians and to folks who are managing those costs.
28:07
John: I guess the question is, if you get it right, doesn't that mean everybody's gonna compete and do the same thing and won't that be a challenge for
28:14
Jean: clarify?
28:17
Jean: Ah, well, for someone to replicate what clarify has built, someone would need to figure out how to bring together all of the data sets, uh, and be able to, you know, pay at least on the order of 15 million a year just to aggregate the data.
28:39
Jean: How much greens a cvs?
28:41
Jean: 15.
28:42
Jean: So a Walgreens, a cvs, et cetera, could easily do that, but somebody can't just start it, you know, in, in, in the corner somewhere.
28:51
Jean: Um, but the other much, uh, less trivial thing is, , much of the investment we've made has been building what's called a grouper.
29:02
Jean: It's the equivalent of a ledger in banking.
29:04
Jean: But all of that data that you're talking about, John, is incredibly dirty.
29:09
Jean: It comes with missing fields, with duplicates, um, et cetera.
29:14
Jean: The amount of work that is done using machine learning and AI to come up with far more trusted fuel to then do the analytics with.
29:26
Jean: We've spent a good five, six years, um, honing that.
29:30
Jean: So yeah, anybody with 15 million can go and buy raw dirty data.
29:36
Jean: Like, like David, but exactly.
29:39
Jean: John,
29:39
David: I'm, I'm not gonna listen, I'm not gonna spend my 15 million on your dirty data.
29:44
David: I gotta, I got a few other things on my list ahead of that, Jean: but, uh, turning, get into.
29:51
David: A trusted, timely, relevant, actionable insight.
29:56
David: To your point, John, that's exactly been the challenge in healthcare, uh, up till now, and it's not something that I see Chad g p t being able to do on its own anytime soon.
30:09
David: Uh, See, you know, so, uh, chat
30:14
John: David Williams.
30:16
David: Yeah, I was gonna say, that's a, there you go.
30:18
David: I was gonna say that's a, that's a good one.
30:19
David: It could replace our, our podcast at least, but I think we're gonna end it there.
30:23
David: You know, I say that's it for yet another episode of Care Talk.
30:26
David: I, I only regret that we didn't have time to ask John to explain, uh, why the NHS is collapsing and why we shouldn't, uh, blame it on him.
30:33
David: But we'll, uh, we'll save that for the next time.
30:36
David: , I'm David William.
30:37
David: President of Health Business Group,
30:39
John: and I'm John Driscoll, the president of Walgreens Health.
30:43
John: If you liked what you heard or you didn't, please subscribe on your favorite service.
30:45
John: Joel, thanks for joining us.