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SMNTY Classics: Gaslighting 101 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not just definitely
0:07
Speaker 1: never told you protection of iHeart Radio. Samantha. Do you
0:20
Speaker 1: know what the twenty two Merriam Webster word of the
0:25
Speaker 1: Year is? Oh, woke? Right? No, well it might be
0:32
Speaker 1: for another dictionary publication source, but not for Miriam Webster. Wait,
0:38
Speaker 1: what is the word? Okay, keep going, It is gas lighting. Yes,
0:43
Speaker 1: such a word of the year is gas lighting. I
0:46
Speaker 1: have seen some very interesting takes about that. I find
0:50
Speaker 1: it interesting. The word of the year I always find
0:52
Speaker 1: kind of interesting because I feel like gas lighting has
0:56
Speaker 1: been a big thing for a long time in our
0:58
Speaker 1: modern parlance. But I've I'm surprised. It's like when they're like, Okay,
1:03
Speaker 1: this is the word of the year, but you know,
1:04
Speaker 1: we got a lot going on, right So the reason
1:07
Speaker 1: I thought woke is because I knew they were being
1:10
Speaker 1: snide about what was happening right now in like politics
1:15
Speaker 1: and Twitter and all of this. So I was trying
1:17
Speaker 1: I couldn't remember because like, of course we'll come back
1:20
Speaker 1: to but like this whole like anti woke thing has
1:23
Speaker 1: kind of a guest light. It goes, it goes there, Yeah,
1:26
Speaker 1: it's in there. Yeah, Well, I mean that's that's kind
1:30
Speaker 1: of the like the branching reactions I've seen to it.
1:35
Speaker 1: A lot of it has been that sort of like, oh,
1:37
Speaker 1: so boke, you poor sect gas lighting. But I'm like
1:43
Speaker 1: cas legs everywhere. Um. Anyway, a lot of a lot
1:48
Speaker 1: of emotional sounds to this. Sorry like that, you know,
1:54
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to keep it all in Me and
1:57
Speaker 1: Bridget a while back did an episod vote on a
2:00
Speaker 1: gas lighting one oh one the history of it. So
2:03
Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode. Hi, this is Annie, and
2:11
Speaker 1: this is Bridget, and this is stuff Mom never told you. Um.
2:26
Speaker 1: And we wanted to start out today with a trigger
2:28
Speaker 1: warning because we're going to be talking about gas lighting,
2:31
Speaker 1: which is a form of mental and emotional abuse. So
2:34
Speaker 1: if that is a trigger for you, probably best that
2:36
Speaker 1: you skipped this episode. Yeah, all right, so let's start
2:42
Speaker 1: with a definition, shall we. Yeah. I wonder if most
2:45
Speaker 1: people are familiar with it. Probably not, I don't know.
2:48
Speaker 1: But when someone explained it to me, it was like
2:52
Speaker 1: so many things fell into place, because I think a
2:55
Speaker 1: lot of people have experienced this and they don't realize
2:57
Speaker 1: that they have. Yeah, sometimes giving folks a name for
3:01
Speaker 1: what they are experiencing or have experienced, can be very liberating,
3:05
Speaker 1: can be sort of oh that's what it was, yeah,
3:08
Speaker 1: and you can start to pinpoint the behaviors. Okay, so
3:12
Speaker 1: from Encyclopedia Britannica. Gaslighting and elaborate and insidious technique of
3:16
Speaker 1: deception and psychological manipulation, usually practiced by a single deceiver
3:21
Speaker 1: or gas lighter on a single victim over an extended period.
3:24
Speaker 1: Its effect is to gradually undermine the victim's confidence in
3:27
Speaker 1: his own ability to distinguish the truth from falsehood, right
3:31
Speaker 1: from wrong, our reality from appearance, thereby rendering him pathologically
3:36
Speaker 1: dependent on the gas lighter in his thinkings or felix.
3:39
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so the definition you're right, it really does.
3:44
Speaker 1: And you read that definition. It's almost impossible to not
3:47
Speaker 1: look back on your prior relationships or family relationships or
3:51
Speaker 1: friendships or whatever and think, oh, that person who treated
3:55
Speaker 1: me weird, like made me feel really weird, and I
3:57
Speaker 1: always question am I okay? Am I crazy? Am I
4:00
Speaker 1: over sensitive? Am I blowing up at nothing? You know,
4:03
Speaker 1: that person who filled you with self doubt? It's easy
4:07
Speaker 1: to look back and say, oh, that's what was happening, Yeah, exactly,
4:12
Speaker 1: and you touched on a lot of the common phrases
4:14
Speaker 1: you might hear. Um. And for me, when I learned
4:17
Speaker 1: what this is, there's someone of my family who's really
4:19
Speaker 1: good at this, and I like, once I learned what
4:22
Speaker 1: it is, Now when when it comes up, I'm I'm
4:25
Speaker 1: able to like say, nope, nope, I'm being perfectly reasonable
4:29
Speaker 1: and how I'm behaving, you can't just dismiss me. So
4:32
Speaker 1: the goal of gas lighting is to make you doubt
4:35
Speaker 1: your own ability to perceive reality. And some common phrases
4:39
Speaker 1: that you might hear, um, are you sure you're remembering
4:42
Speaker 1: that correctly? You know you have a bad memory. Um,
4:45
Speaker 1: you're making things up again. You're too sensitive, Like you said,
4:48
Speaker 1: bridget Um, you'll never find someone as good as me.
4:51
Speaker 1: It's all on your head. It slowly chips away at
4:53
Speaker 1: the target self esteem. And it's so so, so so effective,
4:58
Speaker 1: so effective that it's a frequent tool of dictators and
5:01
Speaker 1: cult leaders. Oh that actually sounds familiar to me, does it?
5:05
Speaker 1: And there actually might be someone who is a who
5:08
Speaker 1: you might think of as a bit of a dictator
5:10
Speaker 1: who is doing that. Now. I don't any names, but
5:14
Speaker 1: well we might say some names later. Another part of
5:17
Speaker 1: this is the illusory truth effect, and that's when someone
5:20
Speaker 1: believes something mostly because they've heard it so much before.
5:23
Speaker 1: This is really problematic and a lot of things, but
5:26
Speaker 1: it comes up in politics. If you just hear something
5:29
Speaker 1: over and over, you start to believe it, even if
5:32
Speaker 1: you've only heard it, like from one person saying it
5:35
Speaker 1: over and over again. So gas lighting touches on that
5:37
Speaker 1: because if someone repeatedly tells you, oh, you're you're overacting,
5:41
Speaker 1: you're being sensitive, over time, you're going to start to
5:44
Speaker 1: think in your own head like I guess I'm over
5:46
Speaker 1: reacting and being sensitive. And this is different than the
5:49
Speaker 1: occasional like differences in memory or denials or blackout drunk behavior, um.
5:54
Speaker 1: Everyday gas lighting as it's called, this could be human
5:57
Speaker 1: error or defensiveness, but that doesn't mean it isn't harmful.
6:02
Speaker 1: But today we're going to mostly focus on deliberate use
6:06
Speaker 1: of gaslighting. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned blackout drunk. Um.
6:11
Speaker 1: We have a glad of great examples from pop culture,
6:13
Speaker 1: but there's one netsticks in my mind, which is this
6:14
Speaker 1: book Grow on a Train. Have you ever read it? Um?
6:18
Speaker 1: I've been pretty open about my love of drink. The
6:23
Speaker 1: show like when you when you're someone who drinks or
6:26
Speaker 1: that you have use substances that like mess with your memory.
6:30
Speaker 1: That can be its own kind of weird. Um. I
6:33
Speaker 1: don't say gas lighting, but it is a bit where
6:35
Speaker 1: you you kind of are dependent on others around you
6:38
Speaker 1: to fill in like oh, what did I do last night?
6:40
Speaker 1: Or what happened last night or whatever? Um, and how
6:43
Speaker 1: sort of that can leave you kind of vulnerable for
6:47
Speaker 1: that kind of behavior sometimes gas lighting. A gas lighter
6:51
Speaker 1: will use that to their advantage or too, like further,
6:55
Speaker 1: because they want to control the other person. So if
6:59
Speaker 1: you're depending not a substance, than they might like both
7:03
Speaker 1: encourage you to get more addicted and then like blame
7:06
Speaker 1: you for it and also like yeah, control the narrative
7:10
Speaker 1: of what what did you do? And Girl on the
7:12
Speaker 1: Train is a great example of that or that's pretty
7:14
Speaker 1: much the whole plot. Spoiler yeah, oh yeah, sorry he
7:20
Speaker 1: has been out for a couple for a while. Oh boy,
7:22
Speaker 1: it was like five years. Um. The name gas lighting
7:27
Speaker 1: comes from a nineteen thirty nine British stage play called Gaslight,
7:30
Speaker 1: which was later produced into two films, the UK's nineteen
7:33
Speaker 1: forty gas Light and in nineteen forty four in the
7:35
Speaker 1: US under the same name starting Ingrid Bergman, and the
7:39
Speaker 1: plot of the movie is about an abusive husband doing
7:41
Speaker 1: his best to convince his wife she's losing her mind. Um.
7:44
Speaker 1: He does so by convincing her she's a kleptomaniac. And
7:48
Speaker 1: the sound she's hearing and the dimming of the gas lights,
7:50
Speaker 1: she is seeing her all in her head, so she
7:53
Speaker 1: won't know what our real truth is That her husband,
7:56
Speaker 1: who was married to Ingrid bermings character Aunt, is trying
8:01
Speaker 1: to find the families lost jewels that's hidden in the house. Um.
8:06
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and he murdered the aunt by the way,
8:08
Speaker 1: for the jewels. Yeah. But it just goes to show
8:11
Speaker 1: how it's all about controlling her ability to perceive things realistically,
8:16
Speaker 1: and that he uses that as a way to conceal
8:19
Speaker 1: his own bad behavior. Yeah, exactly. It's you're flipping it
8:22
Speaker 1: around too. Usually, um, when it's in relationships, since it's
8:27
Speaker 1: to hide like cheating or if you've got like a
8:31
Speaker 1: gambling addiction and you want to turn, you want to
8:34
Speaker 1: flip the script around and put it on the other person.
8:38
Speaker 1: So yeah, this movie pretty much encapsulates it, and it
8:42
Speaker 1: did become the term. She finally realizes at the end.
8:46
Speaker 1: She clings to the fact like these gas lights are dimming,
8:49
Speaker 1: these glass lights are dimming. And the only way she
8:52
Speaker 1: like realizes that, yes, they are dimming, she is not
8:56
Speaker 1: losing her mind is when the police show up at
8:59
Speaker 1: the end and they say, well, the guests, it's so
9:01
Speaker 1: dim the whole time. I'm not crazy, Yeah, which is why,
9:08
Speaker 1: UM an important thing is to have like a support
9:10
Speaker 1: group or people outside of that relationship that can verify
9:15
Speaker 1: the truth for you. Yeah. I had a friend who
9:18
Speaker 1: had a major gas lighter in her life, and one
9:22
Speaker 1: of the ways that the person used gaslighting was by
9:25
Speaker 1: trying to make her think her her own friends like her,
9:29
Speaker 1: the outside sources that you were saying, trying to break
9:32
Speaker 1: down the trust there. And so this person would say
9:35
Speaker 1: things to her like, you know, well, your friend agree.
9:38
Speaker 1: I talked to your friend and they agree with me,
9:40
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, they didn't. That's a made up thing.
9:42
Speaker 1: But by if you say that enough, you start to
9:45
Speaker 1: not trust the people that you look at as your
9:48
Speaker 1: as your support system and your trust system your outside people.
9:50
Speaker 1: And so I really was able to see that as
9:52
Speaker 1: a tactic of isolating her, making her feel like they
9:57
Speaker 1: were the only person that would tell her the truth
9:59
Speaker 1: and be real with her, and they they were all
10:00
Speaker 1: that she had, and that the people that she grew
10:02
Speaker 1: up with, that she considered like her sisters, like her
10:04
Speaker 1: support we are actually you know, talking to about her
10:07
Speaker 1: and you know I thought she was being crazy. Yeah,
10:11
Speaker 1: And that is a hallmark of a gas lighter. They
10:14
Speaker 1: will try to bring in your support group and either
10:17
Speaker 1: like break down the trust with them or even say like, well,
10:20
Speaker 1: Annie agrees with me, and even though I don't, like,
10:22
Speaker 1: they're just gonna group use me two further their their
10:28
Speaker 1: control in the relationship, their power and relationship. And since
10:31
Speaker 1: um Gaslight the movie came out, there's now so many
10:35
Speaker 1: examples of this in media, and one of the biggest
10:38
Speaker 1: known recent ones that maybe people who watched it didn't
10:41
Speaker 1: pinpoint is Jessica Jones. The main villain in that kill
10:45
Speaker 1: Grave is gaslighting her all the time. He's telling her
10:49
Speaker 1: without like because he does have special powers, but without
10:51
Speaker 1: using them. He's telling her like, this is what happened.
10:54
Speaker 1: You were remembering things wrong. I know it happened, you
10:56
Speaker 1: don't know what happened. And she even uses the technique
10:59
Speaker 1: that UM some survivors are are is helpful for some
11:03
Speaker 1: survivors to come back gaslighting, where she recites the names
11:06
Speaker 1: of her old streets to like reinforce her truth, to
11:10
Speaker 1: remind herself, no, this is, this is I know this
11:13
Speaker 1: is it's at the gaslights in gaslights Yeah, exactly. So
11:17
Speaker 1: it's interesting. So like finding something that you can cling
11:20
Speaker 1: to if you've seen, Um, that's such a thing in
11:22
Speaker 1: movies like, um, what's that movie that's kind of terrible
11:26
Speaker 1: and everyone loved it? Um? Could it be where they
11:30
Speaker 1: go into people's dreams? Yeah? Um, is that the movie
11:36
Speaker 1: where they have the thing that you know? This is
11:38
Speaker 1: how I know? Yeah, it's interesting how finding that tangible
11:43
Speaker 1: thing that you can cling to that you know this
11:46
Speaker 1: this demonstrates my ability to perceive reality correctly. That seems
11:50
Speaker 1: to be a recurring thing with gaslighting and how you
11:52
Speaker 1: can combat it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another big example in
11:56
Speaker 1: movies that I ran into a lot was the Truman Show.
11:58
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the Changeling, which is based on a true story.
12:02
Speaker 1: Have you seen that? One? Bridget sounds familiar? Have I
12:05
Speaker 1: seen that? What's about? Um, it's about Angelina Jolie. I
12:09
Speaker 1: think it's a it's a kind of a period piece.
12:11
Speaker 1: Maybe I probably way off, but in this century period piece. Um,
12:16
Speaker 1: And she loses her child and like weeks passed and
12:20
Speaker 1: the police are like, hey, we found your kid, and
12:23
Speaker 1: she's like, that is not my kid, Like, nope, it
12:25
Speaker 1: really is that your kid. I can't believe you can't
12:27
Speaker 1: remember him. You must be a terrible mom. And she's
12:30
Speaker 1: just like everyone's telling me this is my kid. I
12:32
Speaker 1: know this is not my kid. He doesn't fit in
12:33
Speaker 1: like the same clothes. But the police go through epic
12:37
Speaker 1: links to convince her that that is her kid or
12:41
Speaker 1: that she has lost her mind. She ends up in
12:42
Speaker 1: insane asylument. Why did they do this? I think because
12:45
Speaker 1: they were embarrassed. I know in the true story that
12:49
Speaker 1: the kid died, it was like twenty they found twenty
12:52
Speaker 1: kids in a grave or something. I think they were
12:57
Speaker 1: trying to cover up some kind of embarrassing failure on
12:59
Speaker 1: their part by gaslighting Angela and Julie and getting her
13:02
Speaker 1: locked in insane asylum. Does Um that's a lot like
13:06
Speaker 1: a Flight Plan, which is a terrible movie, but I
13:09
Speaker 1: saw it in the theater. You ever seen flight Plan?
13:11
Speaker 1: Basically flight Plan? It's not a very good movie. But
13:14
Speaker 1: I did see it in the theater. Um Jodie Foster.
13:17
Speaker 1: She arrives to an airport with her child, but the
13:21
Speaker 1: child is scared to go through tes a, so she
13:23
Speaker 1: hides him, and she hides the child, and I think
13:25
Speaker 1: it's a girl under her coat. Security videos don't jump
13:28
Speaker 1: her going in with a kid. The kid is later kidnapped,
13:30
Speaker 1: I think by terrorist or something, and they basically try
13:33
Speaker 1: to convince her. They're like, you didn't have a kid.
13:35
Speaker 1: She's like what, And so, of course, because she's a woman,
13:37
Speaker 1: she thinks I'm crazy, you know, I'm It's funny how
13:41
Speaker 1: the victims of gas lighting. It's not, it's not only women,
13:45
Speaker 1: but it's interesting how, particularly in pop culture, when it
13:47
Speaker 1: is women, women are so quick to beat to think
13:50
Speaker 1: I'm quote unquote crazy, like something's wrong with me, and like,
13:53
Speaker 1: you're right, my perception of reality is warped. I wonder
13:57
Speaker 1: if that's a gendered thing. Yeah, I I would say so,
14:01
Speaker 1: and we are going to touch on that a little
14:03
Speaker 1: bit more later. But I do think women are more
14:04
Speaker 1: likely to be dismissed as crazy or hormonal is at
14:09
Speaker 1: that time of the month for you, like yeah, blaming
14:12
Speaker 1: it on on those types of things, and I think
14:15
Speaker 1: that women largely have internalized that and maybe are more
14:19
Speaker 1: quick to blame those types of things as well, especially
14:23
Speaker 1: like that, UM, I think about nagging all the time,
14:26
Speaker 1: that like you're nagging wife, and I think a lot
14:29
Speaker 1: a lot of women are afraid to have that label
14:32
Speaker 1: and afraid of that label in general. And so even
14:35
Speaker 1: if this is I've mentioned before my thirty page on
14:37
Speaker 1: the dishes, my thirty page dishes, even if you're totally
14:42
Speaker 1: right to ask for help and it comes off as nagging,
14:47
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, that's just a term that has
14:50
Speaker 1: been very useful for getting out of doing the dishes,
14:54
Speaker 1: among other things. Episode on Anie's opinion, that would be
15:02
Speaker 1: like a ten part mini and Me just mostly dissolving
15:07
Speaker 1: into and another thing. UM. The one more thing I
15:12
Speaker 1: want to touch on in the movie verse of gas
15:15
Speaker 1: lighting is um, a lot of horror movies, like The
15:18
Speaker 1: Shining or Clockwork Orange purposefully gaslight the audience by um
15:23
Speaker 1: making continuity errs so that you're never quite sure, like
15:27
Speaker 1: did I see that? I don't know, Maybe I didn't
15:28
Speaker 1: see that. The Shining is the ultimate example of that
15:31
Speaker 1: because you watched that movie. At least for me, I
15:33
Speaker 1: find myself pausing and going back and thinking I just
15:36
Speaker 1: saw a flash of something very disturbing, didn't I, And
15:38
Speaker 1: then you have to go back and make sure that
15:40
Speaker 1: you did in fact see it. Yeah, it's pretty effective.
15:43
Speaker 1: Thank you for gas flighting me, Stanley Kubrick. Yeah. Cnically,
15:48
Speaker 1: gaslighting is classified as a type of narcissistic abuse, particularly
15:52
Speaker 1: malignant narcissist. In this case, the narcissists uses the target
15:55
Speaker 1: for validation and esteem while simultaneously detesting the targets of victimhood.
16:01
Speaker 1: Gaslighting is gradual, starting out small, but eventually leading to depression, anxiety,
16:06
Speaker 1: and isolation in the target, making him or her even
16:09
Speaker 1: more dependent. And here are some of the hall marks
16:13
Speaker 1: telling outright lies. By doing so, by setting the bar
16:16
Speaker 1: so high with something that's like obviously a false statement,
16:20
Speaker 1: the gas lighter undermines your ability to know if anything
16:23
Speaker 1: else they say is true or not. A lot of
16:26
Speaker 1: the lies they invoke include someone you care about, Like
16:29
Speaker 1: we mentioned um, this person agrees with me, she thinks
16:31
Speaker 1: you're overacting to Sometimes in the survivor community, this is
16:35
Speaker 1: called a flying monkey because you're kind of sicking. You're
16:38
Speaker 1: flying monkeys on on them and sort of you know,
16:41
Speaker 1: building a network of people who you will rely on
16:44
Speaker 1: to undermine the victim's sense of reality and self. Yeah, exactly.
16:49
Speaker 1: At the same time, they call people and the media
16:53
Speaker 1: that call into question the reality they're feeding you liars
16:56
Speaker 1: if it is in opposition to what they're telling you.
16:59
Speaker 1: It also sounds a familiar m denial of something they
17:03
Speaker 1: said are did, even if you produce proof, even in
17:06
Speaker 1: the face of outright proof. And once again this sets
17:08
Speaker 1: you off balance. Um, it makes you question your reality,
17:11
Speaker 1: trivialization of your feelings. Gas lighters often attack things that
17:15
Speaker 1: you care about. Their actions don't match their words. Occasionally
17:18
Speaker 1: they offer you kind words, um, words of encouragement, and
17:22
Speaker 1: it kind of reminds me of the cycle of abuse
17:23
Speaker 1: as well, where it's like, oh, I'll never do it again,
17:27
Speaker 1: I love you and all these things like I failed
17:30
Speaker 1: this one time. But then it's it's a cycle, and
17:32
Speaker 1: they do this to confuse you because then you're like, well,
17:35
Speaker 1: they said this nice thing about me, and maybe they're
17:37
Speaker 1: not all bad. How could they be bad. He's being
17:39
Speaker 1: so nice to me now, how could he be an
17:41
Speaker 1: abusive person when he's making me feel so good in
17:43
Speaker 1: this moment? I must have had him all wrong. I
17:46
Speaker 1: must be sensitive, I must be misunderstanding the situation. Yeah, exactly,
17:50
Speaker 1: And it further confuses you. And confusion is the best
17:53
Speaker 1: friend of a gas lighter. Gas Lighters often project their
17:56
Speaker 1: own failings or issues. They turn it around on you,
18:00
Speaker 1: so you're the wrong doer. They might act hurt that
18:02
Speaker 1: you've accused them of such a thing. They dismiss you
18:05
Speaker 1: as crazy hormonal. How dare you say that about me?
18:10
Speaker 1: I would never do that. I mean, you must be
18:12
Speaker 1: really out of your mind. You should. I worry about
18:14
Speaker 1: your mental health if that's if that's really what you think, Yeah, exactly,
18:19
Speaker 1: up and to extremes that When a gas lighters question here,
18:23
Speaker 1: she may resort to threats of physical abuse, especially if
18:26
Speaker 1: like they sense that their whole game might be up
18:31
Speaker 1: and the techniques commonly deployed by gas lighters or things
18:34
Speaker 1: like withholding. And this is when the gas lighter refuses
18:37
Speaker 1: to listen to share emotions, feigns a lack of interest
18:40
Speaker 1: or understanding. Costic example of this is I'm not listening
18:43
Speaker 1: to this again tonight. Countering are questioning the target's reality.
18:47
Speaker 1: You're wrong about that? Last time? You have an over
18:49
Speaker 1: active imagination you've never believed in me. I feel like
18:52
Speaker 1: that one is probably really common in relationships with there's infidelity, Yeah,
18:57
Speaker 1: saying you know, oh, you're you're so paranoid, are so jealousy?
19:01
Speaker 1: That was I've had people in my life use that one,
19:05
Speaker 1: you know, obscure cheating again. If you say it over
19:08
Speaker 1: and over and over again and you say you're really jealous,
19:10
Speaker 1: you're really jealous, you really jealous over and over and
19:12
Speaker 1: over again, you know you're getting upset about nothing. You're
19:15
Speaker 1: inventing things to be upset about because you're jealous and paranoid,
19:18
Speaker 1: even if you're not a jealous person, like I'm not
19:19
Speaker 1: a very jealous person, but someone saying it over and
19:22
Speaker 1: over and over again, by the end, I'm apologizing for
19:26
Speaker 1: this person who was like cheating on me because I'm
19:28
Speaker 1: apologizing like, oh, I'm I'm just mean being I'm you
19:31
Speaker 1: know how you know me, I'm just so jealous by
19:33
Speaker 1: the kind of like wait, sepack, I'm not actually jealous
19:36
Speaker 1: and actually you are deceiving me. But it's interesting how
19:40
Speaker 1: repeating those countering claims over and over again can really
19:44
Speaker 1: you can really internalize them. Yeah, I've definitely seen that
19:46
Speaker 1: play out in a friend's relationship where he would call
19:51
Speaker 1: her jealous all the time, and he would even go
19:53
Speaker 1: so far as to be like, well, I saw you
19:55
Speaker 1: hanging out with this one dude, like one time, like
19:59
Speaker 1: maybe you're the one. Yeah, maybe I should be looking
20:01
Speaker 1: into what you're doing. It's it's pretty insidious. There's blocking, diverting,
20:05
Speaker 1: which is flipping the conversation around to question the target. So, yeah,
20:10
Speaker 1: you're hurting me on purpose, or stop nagging me, trivializing,
20:13
Speaker 1: I'm dismissing the thoughts or feelings in the gas of
20:16
Speaker 1: the target of the gaslighting, and denial, I don't have
20:18
Speaker 1: to take this, you're making this up. Stuff like that.
20:21
Speaker 1: As we've kind of touched on, it can take place
20:23
Speaker 1: in all sorts of relationships, in the workplace, within a
20:25
Speaker 1: family with a significant other. A lot of times it's
20:28
Speaker 1: a partner trying to hide a relationship. It can take
20:30
Speaker 1: place in a lot of different settings, and it seems
20:33
Speaker 1: like something that's kind of fairly common. According to the
20:35
Speaker 1: National Domestic Violence Hotline, around eight percent of people that
20:39
Speaker 1: call in have experienced some type of mental health coercion.
20:42
Speaker 1: Some of the symptoms of gaslighting that they list on
20:44
Speaker 1: their site include constants I can guessing yourself, feelings of confusion,
20:48
Speaker 1: asking yourself if you're being too sensitive multiple times a day,
20:51
Speaker 1: constantly apologizing to your gaslighter, constantly excusing a gaslighter's behavior,
20:56
Speaker 1: or withholding information from friends you won't have to make excuses.
20:59
Speaker 1: A feeling like you can't quite articulate that something is wrong,
21:02
Speaker 1: telling lies to avoid getting put down or having the
21:04
Speaker 1: rug pulled from underneath you, having a hard time making decisions,
21:07
Speaker 1: feeling that you used to be a more confident and
21:09
Speaker 1: relaxed person, feeling like you can't do anything right, and
21:12
Speaker 1: feeling like you're constantly letting your partner down. But when
21:15
Speaker 1: I was on this website, I saw at the top
21:17
Speaker 1: I had instructions for a quick exiting of the website,
21:20
Speaker 1: not being able to return by using the back button,
21:24
Speaker 1: so that if someone came up behind you. That makes
21:27
Speaker 1: me that's very real. Yeah, that broke my heart. So
21:31
Speaker 1: gas lighting has a really long history, and we're going
21:33
Speaker 1: to talk about it after a quick break from a
21:36
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Okay,
21:50
Speaker 1: So gas lighting probably honestly has been taking place as
21:54
Speaker 1: long as people have had relationships with each other end
21:57
Speaker 1: of trying to manipulate each other. But one example found
22:00
Speaker 1: of it that I loved was Hans Christian Anderson The
22:04
Speaker 1: Emperor's New Clothes And if you don't remember or only
22:06
Speaker 1: have vague memories of the Disney movie, this fairy tale
22:09
Speaker 1: revolves around an emperor who loved his clothes to the
22:11
Speaker 1: point he spent all of his money on them. And
22:14
Speaker 1: two swindlers came to town one day claiming that they
22:16
Speaker 1: made fabrics more wonderful than anything you've ever seen, and
22:20
Speaker 1: if you couldn't see those fabrics, it meant you shouldn't
22:22
Speaker 1: have your job because you were incompetent. And of course
22:25
Speaker 1: the emperor wanted them because by putting him on he
22:28
Speaker 1: not only figure out like who thought he was unfit
22:31
Speaker 1: for duty, but he does would be looking super super fly.
22:34
Speaker 1: So he paid the swindlers a huge amount of cash
22:37
Speaker 1: for some new clothes with the most magnificent fabric, and
22:40
Speaker 1: the swindler set up two big looms and got to
22:42
Speaker 1: weaving with invisible read non existent thread um and the
22:48
Speaker 1: fabric wanted to ask how they were doing it, he
22:50
Speaker 1: didn't because he didn't want to appear stupid as if
22:52
Speaker 1: he thought himself incompetent because he couldn't see the fabric,
22:56
Speaker 1: and the emperor caused the trustee, honest town minister to
22:58
Speaker 1: describe what he sees. But the minister is afraid of
23:01
Speaker 1: the same thing. He doesn't want to be called stupid
23:02
Speaker 1: and una for a job, so he's like, oh wow,
23:04
Speaker 1: how beautiful. Look at this fabric, and the emperors like,
23:07
Speaker 1: oh boy, oh no, I can't see anything. So he
23:10
Speaker 1: calls in more officials, and the trusted officials say the
23:12
Speaker 1: same thing because they also don't want to appear stupid.
23:15
Speaker 1: So the emperor pretends he can see them too, and
23:17
Speaker 1: the swindlers up the price. They say, we gotta We're
23:20
Speaker 1: gonna need more fabric, and the emperor's advisors are like, wow,
23:23
Speaker 1: this is the most beautiful thing. You've got to wear
23:25
Speaker 1: it in your procession that's coming up. And then for
23:28
Speaker 1: like okay um, the swindlers finished the close. They held
23:31
Speaker 1: them out, describing them as light as the spider's web,
23:34
Speaker 1: as if you're wearing nothing. I'm sure they were very like,
23:36
Speaker 1: very delicate. The infer undressed, and they helped him put
23:42
Speaker 1: them on. They went through like a little miming thing.
23:45
Speaker 1: Everyone complimented him on them fools, and then he did
23:50
Speaker 1: the procession completely naked, and everyone except the kids. The
23:55
Speaker 1: kids were like, he's he's naked, but all the adults
23:57
Speaker 1: were like, no, we're good at our job. We can
24:00
Speaker 1: see those. So that's just a um I thought, a
24:05
Speaker 1: funny kind of that's the gas lighting on a not
24:09
Speaker 1: national but local scale. Yeah, kind of the same about
24:13
Speaker 1: all these people buying in if we fast forward past
24:15
Speaker 1: the play in films that we mentioned in the beginning,
24:17
Speaker 1: um in psychologist named Edward vine Schell wrote an article
24:22
Speaker 1: called Some Clinical Consequences of Introjection. Gaslighting and interjection was
24:27
Speaker 1: the term he used to explain the transfer of psychic conflicts.
24:30
Speaker 1: One person externalized and projects, and the other person incorporates
24:34
Speaker 1: and dissimilates. Books and self help blogs about how to
24:37
Speaker 1: shut gas flighting down proliferated soon after with strategies like
24:41
Speaker 1: narrative repair that relies on a counter story, and the
24:44
Speaker 1: most research and articles have been about gaslighting and relationships. Recently,
24:48
Speaker 1: it's gotten more sort of nationwide attention, society wide attention.
24:52
Speaker 1: I guess. Take this quote from shay m a Fete
24:54
Speaker 1: over everyday feminism. She writes, I believe that gaslighting is
24:58
Speaker 1: happening culturally and inter personally on an unprecedented scale. And
25:02
Speaker 1: this is the result of a societal framework where we
25:04
Speaker 1: pretend everyone is equal while trying simultaneously to preserve inequality.
25:09
Speaker 1: And that is something I definitely definitely feel in my experience.
25:13
Speaker 1: This is folks who say things like, oh, we're all
25:16
Speaker 1: equal now, the races are all equal, and so while
25:19
Speaker 1: me is a woman of color and experiencing an equality,
25:22
Speaker 1: the nation is sort of refusing to agree that this
25:25
Speaker 1: is happening. And so it is interesting. And part of
25:27
Speaker 1: it is that you internalize it and you think, oh,
25:30
Speaker 1: I'm over sensitive, I'm making you know, it's so easy
25:33
Speaker 1: to shut this down, right, like someone saying, oh, you
25:35
Speaker 1: make everything about race, which people have wrote into this
25:37
Speaker 1: very podcast, and I thought about me, and you know,
25:40
Speaker 1: it's really quite something to have people insist that we
25:44
Speaker 1: are living in a equal nation, equal for along spectrums
25:48
Speaker 1: of gender, race, sexuality, class. It's really quite rich to
25:51
Speaker 1: have those people say, oh, you make everything about race,
25:55
Speaker 1: when we live in a country where everything is about race, right,
25:58
Speaker 1: It's quite interesting the people use that tactic, and it
26:01
Speaker 1: is it does feel a bit like gaslighting. Oh, absolutely, Yeah,
26:04
Speaker 1: it's exactly what you said. You make everything about races.
26:07
Speaker 1: It's just a way of It's similar to the boyfriend
26:11
Speaker 1: telling you like you're just jealous. Like it's a way
26:13
Speaker 1: to just say, nope, we're all equal here. You're the
26:16
Speaker 1: ones you're still fighting about, trying to stir something up.
26:20
Speaker 1: Sha m a fete on Everyday Feminism, she wrote that
26:24
Speaker 1: a lot about that, and she wrote that minorities that
26:26
Speaker 1: face stereotypes about mental capacity are particularly prone to gaslighting. Yeah,
26:31
Speaker 1: and the more widespread the term has become, the more
26:33
Speaker 1: deluded the meaning, and the more often it's used to gaslight.
26:37
Speaker 1: Almost it muddies the water around rational disagreement. And we're
26:40
Speaker 1: talking more on a societal and cultural level now, although
26:44
Speaker 1: this can happen in relationships. And we'll get into this
26:47
Speaker 1: after one last break for a word from our sponsor,
26:59
Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank your sponsor. And this brings us
27:02
Speaker 1: too far. I know Bridget has been itch this is
27:05
Speaker 1: I've and he's had to give me that not yet,
27:08
Speaker 1: not yet, look, because I'm raring to go on this,
27:11
Speaker 1: but all the song's gonna jump right into it for it.
27:13
Speaker 1: Donald Trump a gas lighter in chief. I would agree
27:18
Speaker 1: with you. Bridget Um. I remember because I started out
27:21
Speaker 1: just reading basically how the podcast started as I was
27:24
Speaker 1: researching that. That was the first thing I was talking
27:25
Speaker 1: about was like signs of a gas lighter. And I
27:27
Speaker 1: was like, huh huh oh, because it all sounded very familiar.
27:33
Speaker 1: If you're like me, you've probably seen headlines in the
27:36
Speaker 1: past year, so that pretty much say the same thing,
27:38
Speaker 1: like Donald Trump is gaslighting America from teen Vogue. The
27:41
Speaker 1: Trump campaigns were on reality made me question what I
27:43
Speaker 1: saw from the Washington Post. I'm a Republican, why is
27:47
Speaker 1: my party gaslighting America? From Politico. So we're not the
27:50
Speaker 1: only ones that made this connection. We're not the only ones.
27:52
Speaker 1: And some of you might be thinking, wait a minute,
27:55
Speaker 1: Donald Trump not gaslighting the country. I've actually seen headlines
27:59
Speaker 1: that question that that that pushed back on this narrative
28:01
Speaker 1: that he that we were being gas lighted on a
28:03
Speaker 1: national scale by our current president. As we talked about
28:06
Speaker 1: in this episode, a hallmark of gas lighting is trying
28:10
Speaker 1: to make you believe things that are not true, even
28:12
Speaker 1: when presented with proof. Just today, Donald Trump was presented
28:16
Speaker 1: with a video of him saying something he did not say.
28:19
Speaker 1: And still clings to it, right, Like Donald Trump will
28:22
Speaker 1: say things that are verifiably untrue, things where it's like, oh,
28:26
Speaker 1: you're on video, or oh here is proof, or oh
28:29
Speaker 1: we have a photo of you doing this, and he'll say, no,
28:32
Speaker 1: I didn't do it, and and it sort of becomes
28:35
Speaker 1: its own kind of reality in a kind of way.
28:37
Speaker 1: This is this This is a small example, but a
28:39
Speaker 1: Kim lying about the crowdside of inauguration Kelly and Conway said,
28:43
Speaker 1: he's presenting alternative effects. Numbers are numbers. If you say
28:47
Speaker 1: a number and the different numbers higher or lower, I mean,
28:49
Speaker 1: that's not there's not an alternative to that. That's just
28:51
Speaker 1: how these things work. Another example is that the Trump
28:54
Speaker 1: administration contends that sixty five people died in Hurricane Maria
28:58
Speaker 1: and Puerto Rico, and at Harvard University came out with
29:01
Speaker 1: a study just this week that said, actually, that number
29:03
Speaker 1: is more like four thousand or over four thousand, and
29:07
Speaker 1: his administration basically is refusing to to acknowledge these plain facts. Yes,
29:15
Speaker 1: and when they're presented with the obvious proof, it becomes
29:19
Speaker 1: fake media fake news, which we touched on the beginning
29:22
Speaker 1: that that is one of the hallmarks of dismissing the
29:25
Speaker 1: thing that counters your narrative. Yeah, and making you feel
29:28
Speaker 1: unsettled and off kilter because you are seeing this blatant
29:32
Speaker 1: proof and to be tolled Nope, that's wrong. And to
29:37
Speaker 1: make things about race again, as I always do, because
29:39
Speaker 1: you know that's nothing. Um, think about the way that
29:42
Speaker 1: Trump talks about people of color in this country. He'll
29:45
Speaker 1: go on TV and say things that are blatantly racist,
29:49
Speaker 1: and then I'll say, oh, quote unquote, the blacks are
29:53
Speaker 1: doing better they than they have. So not only is
29:55
Speaker 1: that like not you break down the numbers, that's actually
29:57
Speaker 1: not a true thing in and of itself. But he
30:00
Speaker 1: will get on TV and say people of color are
30:03
Speaker 1: doing great under my administration while simultaneously being really racist.
30:08
Speaker 1: He does the same thing with women. He'll get he'll
30:10
Speaker 1: get on TV and say women are making more money
30:12
Speaker 1: than they've ever made under my administration, while at the
30:15
Speaker 1: same time bragging about grabbing women by their body parts. Right,
30:18
Speaker 1: And so it is a way of saying of sort
30:21
Speaker 1: of denying a kind of victimhood in a way where
30:25
Speaker 1: we all can see that you are doing things that
30:27
Speaker 1: are not okay, but you are refusing to let that
30:33
Speaker 1: reality linger and in a kind of using it against us. Yeah. Absolutely,
30:38
Speaker 1: And a lot of the things we've been talking about
30:40
Speaker 1: do match up with the behavior Trump in his cabinet.
30:43
Speaker 1: The dimissile of reality, the constant refrain of fake news,
30:45
Speaker 1: the contradictions under money over the press, the outright lies.
30:48
Speaker 1: This all adds up to the so called post truth
30:51
Speaker 1: era where a lot of us feel yeah, very unbalanced
30:55
Speaker 1: and very like daily grind. Yeah. I I think I've
31:00
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit on the show, but
31:02
Speaker 1: my post election vibe was very much that way that
31:07
Speaker 1: I felt in a kind of way that I couldn't
31:10
Speaker 1: I was having trouble. This sounds like an exaggeration, but
31:13
Speaker 1: I'm not exaggerating. I felt like I was having trouble
31:15
Speaker 1: grasping reality and understanding what reality was because I feel
31:20
Speaker 1: like I probably kind of like never recovered. I feel
31:22
Speaker 1: like I spend a lot of time seeing things and
31:25
Speaker 1: thinking like what, you know, it's just it's And I
31:28
Speaker 1: think that's also a homework. They say that's a homework
31:30
Speaker 1: of of you know, bad rulers politically, that they overwhelm
31:35
Speaker 1: their citizen read with so many things. You're like, how
31:38
Speaker 1: could that be Oh that's all. How could that be?
31:39
Speaker 1: How could that be? Where by the end of it,
31:41
Speaker 1: you don't know, like up is down, black and white,
31:43
Speaker 1: you don't know what's what your best bet, According to
31:46
Speaker 1: some articles we found, to kind of combat this constant
31:49
Speaker 1: delusion of what is reality UM is to fact check
31:53
Speaker 1: everything everything. Educate yourself on what outlets are reputable. UM
31:58
Speaker 1: and communications fessor Melissa zim Dar's has compiled tips for
32:03
Speaker 1: recognizing fake ar mis leading news sites, as well as
32:05
Speaker 1: a thirty page spreadsheet of these sites. It's really helpful.
32:09
Speaker 1: I had a lot to say about this as somebody
32:10
Speaker 1: who has worked in journalism and media a lot. The
32:13
Speaker 1: way we talk about fake news, I mean, this could
32:15
Speaker 1: be its own episode. But so fake news if you
32:19
Speaker 1: are really familiar with media, you know when someone says
32:21
Speaker 1: fake news, like you know what they mean, it's a
32:23
Speaker 1: very specific thing. But because we live in and Donald
32:28
Speaker 1: Trump as our president, fake news is sort of almost
32:30
Speaker 1: lost its meaning. So when a reputable news source gets
32:35
Speaker 1: a report wrong and they retract it, which you know,
32:38
Speaker 1: it's it's a drag and it happens, it's not fake
32:41
Speaker 1: news that happens. And you know when so a good examples,
32:44
Speaker 1: when ABC released this report on Michael Flynt that they
32:47
Speaker 1: ended up having to retract. They retracted it, they apologized,
32:50
Speaker 1: they said, here's what we got wrong. The reporter who
32:53
Speaker 1: who presented that report was suspended. All the things that
32:56
Speaker 1: were supposed to happen happened. You know, journalism, you should
33:00
Speaker 1: be able to trust your media and your and your
33:02
Speaker 1: journalists just like any other profession there they will make
33:05
Speaker 1: errors and make mistakes, and there's a protocol for that.
33:08
Speaker 1: That is not fake news. And so the fact that
33:10
Speaker 1: that has been sort of conflated with stories that are
33:15
Speaker 1: flat out bogus, you know, stories saying that Hillary Clinton
33:19
Speaker 1: is running a pedophile ring from the basement of my
33:23
Speaker 1: neighborhood DC pizza shop, and we have proof that is
33:27
Speaker 1: a headline. There is no there's nothing about that that's accurate.
33:30
Speaker 1: So that is fake news. But when CNN gets a
33:34
Speaker 1: report wrong, admits it retracts, it takes the appropriate the
33:38
Speaker 1: steps that have been appropriate forever to do that, that's
33:41
Speaker 1: not fake news. And I feel like that's another way
33:43
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump has been able to use this this
33:46
Speaker 1: kind of gas lighting to confuse people that people think
33:49
Speaker 1: that a story saying that Hillary Clinton is actually a
33:54
Speaker 1: Draco reptilian. You know, she's got scales under her clothes.
33:58
Speaker 1: Is on par with ABC getting a story wrong. Yeah. Yeah,
34:03
Speaker 1: It's really disheartening because I guess this is ultimately a
34:09
Speaker 1: good thing. But now if I'm on a site where
34:12
Speaker 1: I don't immediately recognize the name and don't immediately like
34:16
Speaker 1: kind of know that their trustworthy, UM, I have a
34:19
Speaker 1: moment of like, I better check out what this is
34:22
Speaker 1: because it could be totally fake. That's an interesting thing too,
34:26
Speaker 1: because just people are so willing to believe things that
34:30
Speaker 1: fall in line with what they want to believe. Yes,
34:34
Speaker 1: some people, I mean, I'm going to try to keep
34:36
Speaker 1: it under under control, but I've got on some rants
34:39
Speaker 1: about this. Particularly Facebook I think is as you know,
34:43
Speaker 1: a culprit and it's trying to rein it in, but
34:46
Speaker 1: I would argue as doing it badly. Do you know
34:48
Speaker 1: those things on Facebook that was like look back on
34:50
Speaker 1: your you know on this day. I was certainly a
34:52
Speaker 1: culprit for that. Not that long ago. I was sharing
34:55
Speaker 1: things that were bogus because they aligned with my world
34:58
Speaker 1: view at the time. And I don't think that we
35:01
Speaker 1: realized that bubbles that we were creating online and we
35:05
Speaker 1: did that because it felt it feels so good when
35:07
Speaker 1: you read something you're like, yes, finally share, and then
35:11
Speaker 1: you share and all your friends shared, and it really
35:15
Speaker 1: shows how susceptible we all are too information and content
35:21
Speaker 1: that's not actually real. I actually don't think it's our fault.
35:24
Speaker 1: There is this thing I want to stay on CNN
35:27
Speaker 1: where this woman like a journalist came to her house
35:30
Speaker 1: and they said, hey, we have proof that this Facebook
35:33
Speaker 1: group that you've been a part of is actually run
35:35
Speaker 1: by Russian boats, and they were like, here's the proof,
35:38
Speaker 1: and she she refused to believe it, and a lot
35:41
Speaker 1: of people were like, that woman is so stupid, you know,
35:43
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. We don't really live in a country
35:45
Speaker 1: that has a media that is helps inform a citizen rate.
35:48
Speaker 1: Like we've kind of moved a little bit past that,
35:50
Speaker 1: And part of me thought, this woman, I mean, it's
35:53
Speaker 1: almost would have not her fault in a kind of way,
35:56
Speaker 1: that she's so easily duped and believes it so much
35:59
Speaker 1: when we just don't live in a country that make
36:01
Speaker 1: that gives people the resources and makes those resources readily
36:04
Speaker 1: available for people to have a more critical Lens I completely.
36:08
Speaker 1: I'm on the same page with you there, Um media literacy.
36:13
Speaker 1: We wanted to do a whole like podcast and that
36:16
Speaker 1: was always going to be with media literacy. Maybe we
36:18
Speaker 1: should revive the idea getting to teach that in college.
36:21
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, I like when I was teaching
36:24
Speaker 1: Howard are one oh one uh unit was on media literacy.
36:27
Speaker 1: Actually was a really fun course. Man. Maybe we should
36:30
Speaker 1: have like a little recurring check in check in. So
36:35
Speaker 1: all of this has been triggering for survivors of gaslighting
36:42
Speaker 1: and relationships that depended on gaslighting. All of this like
36:45
Speaker 1: kind of Trump Cabinet and just discussion of whether or
36:48
Speaker 1: not it is gas lighting. And then for people that
36:50
Speaker 1: it feels very much like gas lighting who have lived
36:53
Speaker 1: through it. It's been a difficult period and we're at
36:56
Speaker 1: the Guardian. Aeril lev Um offered the these tips as
37:00
Speaker 1: someone who survived gas lighting as a child, Stay defiant,
37:04
Speaker 1: Recognize that there will never be accountability. The gas lighter
37:07
Speaker 1: will never take responsibility for their actions or come around
37:09
Speaker 1: to your point of view. I want to talk about
37:11
Speaker 1: that one briefly. Um, I have a long term relationship
37:15
Speaker 1: with a gas lighter in my life and it's not
37:17
Speaker 1: that kind of relationship that I could sort of cut off.
37:19
Speaker 1: And that one, I think is super super hard because
37:25
Speaker 1: it's so easy to sort of get caught in this
37:29
Speaker 1: idea of I'm going to prove them wrong and you know,
37:32
Speaker 1: compile evidence, and you know the lengths I went to
37:37
Speaker 1: try to get this person to admit that they were
37:41
Speaker 1: gas not not even admit they were gaslighting me, but
37:43
Speaker 1: to admit that they were not telling the truth, not
37:45
Speaker 1: saying something correct. It almost was not worth my own
37:49
Speaker 1: sense of self. It almost was exhausting emotionally for me.
37:52
Speaker 1: And so having to recognize I will never the accountability
37:55
Speaker 1: I want. I'll never get it. I could spend my
37:58
Speaker 1: whole life waiting, and it's or someone will never be
38:00
Speaker 1: will never say I lied about this because I wanted
38:04
Speaker 1: to control you and I'm sorry. I'll never get that.
38:08
Speaker 1: And having to admit that and own that is really
38:11
Speaker 1: really hard. It's like a constant struggle. But I think
38:14
Speaker 1: that as people who are victims of this kind of
38:16
Speaker 1: of narcissistic abuse, it's so easy to kind of be
38:20
Speaker 1: a lawyer and like, you know, I used to think, like, oh,
38:22
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna record them with my phone and
38:24
Speaker 1: there my pocket, and so when they say they didn't
38:26
Speaker 1: say X, I'll play it for them and then I'll
38:29
Speaker 1: hold it under their nose. We'll have to admit it.
38:30
Speaker 1: And I used to have these wild fantasies of of
38:33
Speaker 1: finally getting my my you know, of getting them to
38:36
Speaker 1: admit this, and then I had to say, I'll never
38:39
Speaker 1: get it, and I have to stay defiant and I
38:42
Speaker 1: have to just let it go. And that's that's another
38:44
Speaker 1: another way to deal with it. You gotta let go
38:46
Speaker 1: of the wish that you have for things to be different,
38:49
Speaker 1: because they probably won't be different. Like my the person
38:51
Speaker 1: in my life who was a gas lighter. That is
38:53
Speaker 1: how this person is. And I have kind of let
38:56
Speaker 1: go of any hope that our relationship will be different
39:00
Speaker 1: because this is how it is. And I have to
39:03
Speaker 1: stay defiant and and be confident about my own approach
39:06
Speaker 1: and my own understanding situations, and yes, set those boundaries,
39:09
Speaker 1: like you were saying earlier, say I am behaving in
39:11
Speaker 1: an appropriate way. What I'm asking for is completely reasonable.
39:14
Speaker 1: The way that I'm perceiving the situation is reasonable, and
39:17
Speaker 1: not get sucked into this to this toxic vibe where
39:22
Speaker 1: this other person sets the reality, and so you could
39:25
Speaker 1: be being totally normal, and they're saying that you're being
39:28
Speaker 1: unreasonable or jealous or petty or this or that are ungrateful,
39:31
Speaker 1: like any of the fill in whatever your gaslight or
39:33
Speaker 1: is saying here. Yeah, I'm a firm believer that people
39:37
Speaker 1: will justify their actions and make them correct. They will
39:40
Speaker 1: do what they have to do, like the mental acrobatics
39:42
Speaker 1: they need to do to justify what they're doing and
39:45
Speaker 1: make it okay. So people are not going to take
39:50
Speaker 1: accountability for things if it means admitting to themselves that
39:53
Speaker 1: what they're doing is wrong and they'll have to stop.
39:55
Speaker 1: I think that is unfortunate, but very rare that people
39:58
Speaker 1: would actually turn around and yeah, you waste a lot
40:02
Speaker 1: of energy trying to change someone. And I have a
40:05
Speaker 1: friend who to your point about like producing proof that
40:08
Speaker 1: she usedid this Like unshakable faith. I think the thing
40:11
Speaker 1: that we all kind of want to have unshakeable faith
40:13
Speaker 1: in the certain things are like this is real, the
40:16
Speaker 1: numbers are there's no alternative facts. This is it. And
40:20
Speaker 1: to have that, to present that and have it dismissed
40:24
Speaker 1: is kind of frightening, and it kind of shakes your well,
40:27
Speaker 1: if I can't, if that's not going to change things,
40:29
Speaker 1: if that's going to be just shoved aside as, if
40:33
Speaker 1: it's not facts. It's a difficult concept and a frightening
40:36
Speaker 1: concept to graffle with. And she said it really shook
40:39
Speaker 1: her that she had this faith in that and then
40:43
Speaker 1: it didn't matter. Yeah, so it's tough, Like none of
40:47
Speaker 1: these things are easy. Another thing that Aerial recommended was
40:52
Speaker 1: develop a healthy detachment distinguished between the world of the
40:55
Speaker 1: gas lighter in the real world. And for me that's
40:58
Speaker 1: that's been helpful because I too have a guest later
41:00
Speaker 1: in my life. Eventually, I just had to be like,
41:02
Speaker 1: he sees a different world than me, and I know
41:04
Speaker 1: that what I'm seeing I can verify with other people,
41:08
Speaker 1: that's the thing, but he's not seeing that. Yeah, that's
41:11
Speaker 1: that's been helpful doing with my guest lighter as well.
41:14
Speaker 1: Where in my situation there are so many flying monkeys,
41:19
Speaker 1: so to speak, where it's just easier for them to
41:22
Speaker 1: give in and say, yeah, this this warped version of reality.
41:25
Speaker 1: That's not true. Let's just say it's true, right, Like
41:28
Speaker 1: this person could be saying I could be wearing a
41:30
Speaker 1: blue shirt and say it's red, and everybody just out
41:32
Speaker 1: of sheer exhaustion and say, yeah, I guess it's red.
41:35
Speaker 1: And having a little bit of a detachment from that
41:37
Speaker 1: for me has been really helpful and saying when I
41:40
Speaker 1: know that this is just how the this this is
41:43
Speaker 1: the world they live in, and for whatever reason, they've
41:46
Speaker 1: convinced themselves that this is reality. But I know reality,
41:49
Speaker 1: and I know what's reasonable, and I'm not going to
41:53
Speaker 1: play the game of even getting caught up into this.
41:54
Speaker 1: And it is hard, it's very hard. It's so tempting
41:57
Speaker 1: to get sucked into it and you know, get mired.
42:00
Speaker 1: But that attachment that love speaks to, I think is
42:02
Speaker 1: so critical. Yeah, and to your point, the exhaustion that
42:07
Speaker 1: is a that's a hallmark of gaslighting. And said, eventually
42:10
Speaker 1: you just get worn down and you're like, okay. And
42:14
Speaker 1: it's often compared to like the frog and the pot
42:17
Speaker 1: of water as it gets hotter and hotter, because it's gradual,
42:20
Speaker 1: gradually wearing you down. And I did want to include
42:22
Speaker 1: this example from the Washington Post story we mentioned earlier.
42:25
Speaker 1: It was about um by a journalist who witnessed Trump's
42:29
Speaker 1: campaign manager at the time, Korey Lewandowski grabbing and yanking
42:32
Speaker 1: another reporter, Michelle Fields. When the Trump team they denied
42:36
Speaker 1: it outright that it ever happened, and the reporter who
42:39
Speaker 1: saw it ben terrorist. He started to doubt what he
42:42
Speaker 1: saw because there everyone else was asking Him'm like, are
42:44
Speaker 1: you sure you saw that? He even said I remember
42:47
Speaker 1: that reporter even said they had never met. Yeah, and
42:50
Speaker 1: they were when we got video. Yes. Well, then the
42:53
Speaker 1: video came out and the Trump team doubled down. They
42:57
Speaker 1: were like, oh, that's nothing, You're all over react seeing
43:00
Speaker 1: the reporter kind of writes about how he started researching
43:04
Speaker 1: false witness accounts and like, maybe what if I didn't
43:07
Speaker 1: am I seeing what I am, I remembering what I
43:09
Speaker 1: think I'm remembering correctly, what if I'm not? And how
43:12
Speaker 1: it kind of it frightened him a little bit because
43:16
Speaker 1: it gave him a taste of just having your whole
43:19
Speaker 1: reality put into a question. Um. And that's kind of
43:23
Speaker 1: what Trump has been doing when he's dealing with accusations
43:26
Speaker 1: of sexual assault too. He's like outride glide that said
43:29
Speaker 1: he's never met them, when proof exists that he had.
43:32
Speaker 1: We got you on camera, mother. It takes some real
43:36
Speaker 1: goal to be like I've never met that person. It's like, oh,
43:38
Speaker 1: well we did meet and okay, Like it's like that,
43:42
Speaker 1: that's saying they call a narcissists prayer. That didn't happen,
43:46
Speaker 1: and if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if
43:47
Speaker 1: it was, it's not a big deal. And if it is,
43:49
Speaker 1: it's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't
43:51
Speaker 1: mean it. And if I did, you deserved it. Wow. Yeah,
43:56
Speaker 1: pretty much. That's that's it. So when we talk about
44:00
Speaker 1: recovery from gaslighting, being able to pick up on gaslighting
44:05
Speaker 1: behaviors and recognizing them for what they are is a
44:08
Speaker 1: huge step. Having a support system is really vital too,
44:12
Speaker 1: to help you regain your footing in reality. Um Codependence
44:16
Speaker 1: anonymous might be helpful. It's c o d A dot org.
44:20
Speaker 1: And it's important to not to blame yourself for not
44:22
Speaker 1: having trusted yourself. Gaslighting is really effective and it is gradual.
44:28
Speaker 1: You shouldn't blame yourself for that. Another tip is redirecting
44:31
Speaker 1: anchoring statements when you catch yourself romanticizing your abuser or
44:34
Speaker 1: employing repetition of the truth in your favor. This could
44:37
Speaker 1: be informed of something like documenting the truth, seeking self validation,
44:40
Speaker 1: and really is thinking about things like doing reality testing
44:44
Speaker 1: with people that you trust, sort of talking to someone
44:46
Speaker 1: who you know can confirm that you are perceiving things
44:49
Speaker 1: accurately and sort of relying on them to help you
44:53
Speaker 1: help you sort through this. Yeah, and I read a
44:55
Speaker 1: lot of examples of um, like keeping a journal and
44:58
Speaker 1: seeing so and so said I'm a terrible person and
45:02
Speaker 1: that I'm I'm good at these things and he's saying
45:05
Speaker 1: I'm terrible for this reason when I know that I
45:07
Speaker 1: didn't do this, Like just keeping reaffirming and writing that down,
45:11
Speaker 1: having something that you can look to and remember, like
45:15
Speaker 1: like proof if this is something that you have dealt
45:25
Speaker 1: with or you know someone that has dealt with. The
45:28
Speaker 1: phone number for the National Domestic Violence Hotline is one
45:32
Speaker 1: eight hundred seven seven two three three. That's seven nine
45:37
Speaker 1: nine seven two three. I can chat with someone online
45:41
Speaker 1: at the hotline dot org. Hopefully this is at least
45:44
Speaker 1: given people tools to recognize this behavior, because I do
45:48
Speaker 1: think that is really important. I hope so too. And
45:51
Speaker 1: if you're dealing with gas lighting out there, we want
45:53
Speaker 1: to hear what tips have you used to cope with it?
45:56
Speaker 1: How's it ben for you? I'm sure it's something that
45:58
Speaker 1: can feel very isolating, and you know you don't have
46:01
Speaker 1: to deal with it alone, and you shouldn't have to,
46:03
Speaker 1: so definitely reach out to folks, and we want to
46:05
Speaker 1: hear from you as well. Absolutely, and that brings us
46:07
Speaker 1: to Listener Male. Our first letters from Brittany. Brittany wrote
46:14
Speaker 1: about her journey to feminism. I'm not really sure where
46:17
Speaker 1: it began, but like one of you mentioned, Bridget, I
46:19
Speaker 1: think I've always been into those feminist girl power shows.
46:22
Speaker 1: I loved Buffy, Charms, Xena, et cetera. One of my
46:25
Speaker 1: favorite was Broona Kamar. Such an independent female lead that
46:28
Speaker 1: also takes care of business and fights to help everyone
46:30
Speaker 1: around her no matter who it is. The show is
46:32
Speaker 1: the reason that I'm such a huge fan of Kristen Bell,
46:35
Speaker 1: because Kristen Bell is great and Ronne Camars is really good.
46:38
Speaker 1: It is. I'm pretty sure I love all of those
46:40
Speaker 1: shows you mentioned when I when I was in my
46:42
Speaker 1: formative years as well and still now. One of the
46:45
Speaker 1: other reasons she goes on is music related. I was
46:49
Speaker 1: extremely obsessed with Destiny's Child since I was in middle school.
46:52
Speaker 1: I'm twenty six years old. Pop R and B and
46:54
Speaker 1: rock music helped me get through my rough teenage years.
46:57
Speaker 1: My parents divorced when I was in the second grade. Later,
46:59
Speaker 1: my mom was a US and my dad's been a
47:00
Speaker 1: lot of time in jail prison, so I didn't get
47:02
Speaker 1: a lot of guidance or attention in middle school or
47:04
Speaker 1: high school. Luckily I turned out pretty okay anyway. Destiny's
47:07
Speaker 1: Child was a clear session of mine, and I always
47:08
Speaker 1: had a lot of inner thoughts of being an independent
47:10
Speaker 1: young woman and doing what I wanted to do, regardless
47:12
Speaker 1: of what others or society thought of it. Oh the
47:15
Speaker 1: ladies independent, throw your hands up at me. Oh, I
47:20
Speaker 1: love it. I could we could do an episode of
47:22
Speaker 1: Destiny's Child. My favorite thing about Destiny's Child is how
47:25
Speaker 1: Tina Knowles would always design those tacky but actually amazing costumes.
47:29
Speaker 1: So will be one of them, would have the pants
47:31
Speaker 1: version one of them, and have the shorts version one
47:33
Speaker 1: of them, and had the dress version, you know the best.
47:36
Speaker 1: I had a picture of them on my finder for
47:38
Speaker 1: two years. It was great. Another album in particular that
47:41
Speaker 1: sticks in my mind is Christina aguilarra Is Stripped particularly
47:44
Speaker 1: Can't Hold Us Down as a pretty epic choice to
47:46
Speaker 1: me when it came out this again. Reinforce this girl
47:49
Speaker 1: power vibe that I love. Another obvious choice from this
47:51
Speaker 1: album is also beautiful. Um sang that at talent show.
47:55
Speaker 1: Nailed it, Bridget. Next time we do karaoke, I'm going
48:00
Speaker 1: to try to push you to do that. One's really good. Also,
48:03
Speaker 1: the song that she did on the Mulan soundtracks really good.
48:06
Speaker 1: She had it's it's a classic. She's so good reflections.
48:11
Speaker 1: Oh yes, people don't think of her, but she made
48:15
Speaker 1: a lot of good songs for young people who were
48:18
Speaker 1: going through and like wanted to feel adult feelings. You know.
48:22
Speaker 1: Gene and a bottle Baby got to rub me the
48:24
Speaker 1: right way. Last, but not least Fighter was also very
48:28
Speaker 1: important because it taught me that no matter what I
48:29
Speaker 1: was going through, I'd make it through okay because I
48:32
Speaker 1: was strong and could get through anything I set my
48:34
Speaker 1: mind too. So thank you so much for writing. Oh yeah,
48:37
Speaker 1: we connected to a lot of that, Brittany, obviously, obviously, Brittany,
48:41
Speaker 1: let's come talk music. Yeah, it'll be like a Destiny's
48:46
Speaker 1: Child slash outbursts of singing podcast would we wouldn't want
48:50
Speaker 1: to listen to that? Who wouldn't Anyone who's heard me
48:54
Speaker 1: at karaoke is like, um me, yes, I have a
48:58
Speaker 1: terrible voice. Thank you for that letter. I have one
49:02
Speaker 1: from Aaron. Aaron wrote, just heard the episode on the
49:05
Speaker 1: NFL Cheerleader's Great Job, and you mentioned that you hadn't
49:07
Speaker 1: heard women say quote I have a son in the
49:09
Speaker 1: same way a man might say I wouldn't exploit women
49:12
Speaker 1: I have daughters. I thought I would share my experience
49:14
Speaker 1: with hearing that phrase. Surprise, women still lose. At my
49:17
Speaker 1: conservative Christian college, Spring harolded a group of form posts
49:21
Speaker 1: from men to the general effect of ladies, please cover
49:24
Speaker 1: up your sun dresses are causing us men to have
49:26
Speaker 1: impure thoughts. Several arguments back and forth, and usually one
49:30
Speaker 1: that says, we're your brothers in Christ and you're making
49:32
Speaker 1: a stumble. That's pretty bad. But the ones I found
49:36
Speaker 1: particularly poisonous, or the ones from other women that said
49:39
Speaker 1: things like I have brothers and future sons and I
49:42
Speaker 1: don't want them to be in moral danger. This is
49:44
Speaker 1: striking because it's basically tells me that the only way
49:47
Speaker 1: a woman could have an opinion on the subject is
49:48
Speaker 1: by taking on the male gaze and speaking from that perspective.
49:51
Speaker 1: Moral of the story sun dresses are a powerful weapon,
49:55
Speaker 1: and the Pentagon to check into deploying them if we're
49:58
Speaker 1: interested in bringing down the male gender sun dresses. I've
50:01
Speaker 1: long suspected. Oh, because we're at a sun dress in
50:06
Speaker 1: the studio, I'm already clipped for battle. That's right, always
50:11
Speaker 1: got a sun dress ready to go. So thank you
50:14
Speaker 1: to Aaron and Brittany for writing. You two can write
50:17
Speaker 1: to us and we would love to hear from you.
50:19
Speaker 1: Our email is a mom stuff that has to folks
50:22
Speaker 1: it dot com and you can find us on the
50:24
Speaker 1: social means on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You
50:26
Speaker 1: and on Twitter at mom stuff. Yes, and thanks for listening,
50:29
Speaker 1: and thanks as always to our producers, Dylan Fagan and
50:32
Speaker 1: Catheine Killian