Latest / Just Heal with Dr Jay / Healing After Injustice, Betrayal, and Freedom with Raymond Santana

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Healing After Injustice, Betrayal, and Freedom with Raymond Santana · Just Heal with Dr Jay

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Just Heal with Doctor J, a production of
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Speaker 1: the Black Effect podcast Network and iHeartRadio. What's Up, Family,
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Speaker 1: My name is doctor J Bornett, mental health expert and
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Speaker 1: marriage and family therapist. Listen. I'm excited to welcome you
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Speaker 1: guys to another episode of the Just Heal with Doctor
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Speaker 1: J podcasts, brought to you by the Black Effect Network
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Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia. I'm excited about this guest that I get
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Speaker 1: to sit down and talk with today. As you know,
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Speaker 1: the Just Heal is a space for us to foster
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Speaker 1: healing and to create conversations that will enlighten and enrich
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Speaker 1: the mind of our listeners and our viewers. Because also
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Speaker 1: we do have a YouTube channel, Just Heal Doctor J,
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Speaker 1: so go and subscribe there. And also wherever you listen
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Speaker 1: to podcasts, please tap in on the Black Effect Network
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Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia and Apple. Again, wherever you listen to podcasts,
0:59
Speaker 1: please tap in with us. So I'm excited to bring
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Speaker 1: this guest. Many of you have seen the story, some
1:07
Speaker 1: of you had an opportunity to watch the docuseries that
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Speaker 1: was so beautifully done by the actors, and I'm excited
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Speaker 1: to have one of the five brothers from the Central
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Speaker 1: Park five with us today in the studio, my brother
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Speaker 1: Raymond Santana. Welcome, Man, thank you, thank you for having me.
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Speaker 1: So I just want to go briefly Man in your bio,
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Speaker 1: because you are an activist that many may not know,
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Speaker 1: entrepreneur and of course one of the five EXONERATD five
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Speaker 1: formerly known as the Central Park five, and in nineteen
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Speaker 1: eighty nine, Santana was wrongfully convicted along with the four
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Speaker 1: other black and Latino teenagers in the infamous Central Park
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Speaker 1: Joggas case, and after serving nearly seven years in prison
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Speaker 1: for a crime he did not commit, he was exonerated
2:00
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two when the real perpetrator confessed
2:04
Speaker 1: and DNA evidence confirmed his guilt. Now, just reading that
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Speaker 1: evoked some emotions within me internally, because I couldn't imagine
2:18
Speaker 1: what it's like to not only be considered as a
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Speaker 1: suspect for a crime that you did not commit, but
2:27
Speaker 1: to not only be a suspect, but then to go
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Speaker 1: to convicted and having to serve time in the prison,
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Speaker 1: and me being in the mental health space, and having
2:39
Speaker 1: worked with individuals that are in the system, having worked
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Speaker 1: with individuals that have received a number of years mentally
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Speaker 1: and psychologically, man, I just I don't know how I
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Speaker 1: would be able to process that. And here you are today, brother,
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Speaker 1: you look well. Man, you're looking good, look like you
2:59
Speaker 1: age and.
3:00
Speaker 2: Backwards trying man.
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Speaker 1: Maybe not trying, man, you're doing black man, you're doing.
3:04
Speaker 1: Always say if you try, you would never start.
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Speaker 2: That's right, That's right, that's right.
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Speaker 1: So no, man, So if you could just you know, man,
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Speaker 1: just talk to the audience, and of course we're gonna
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Speaker 1: unpack it a little bit, but just you know, what
3:20
Speaker 1: has been your journey psychologically, uh since coming home? And
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Speaker 1: of course it's many years ago, but just even as
3:27
Speaker 1: you have, even as you have age as a black man.
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Speaker 3: You know, for me, I look back at the journey
3:33
Speaker 3: right thirty plus years and it has been a journey
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Speaker 3: of continuous growth. Some of it, you know, out of
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Speaker 3: my hands. I have no you know, no way of
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Speaker 3: fighting it. Some things I can control. But I looked
3:48
Speaker 3: at it as a thirty year process of growth. You know,
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Speaker 3: I was convicted at the age of fourteen, as a
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Speaker 3: fourteen year kid living in East Harlem. You know, I
3:56
Speaker 3: never had no runners with the with the law. Didn't
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Speaker 3: know who Miranda was, right, you know, never had no dealings,
4:03
Speaker 3: and so when this happens to me at the age
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Speaker 3: of fourteen, I'm completely blindsided because it was never no
4:08
Speaker 3: pressure on me to choose a profession as a fourteen
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Speaker 3: year old kid, right right, you know, I loved this.
4:13
Speaker 3: I was in my schedule book. I loved to listen
4:15
Speaker 3: to hip hop music. Right back then, we had vhs,
4:17
Speaker 3: so my dad would have me record movies for him.
4:20
Speaker 3: I would record videos and watch videos. So I was
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Speaker 3: a typical fourteen year old kid. And on the night
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Speaker 3: of April nineteenth, you know, hanging out with friends, being
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Speaker 3: a follower, right, you know, the plan was to go
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Speaker 3: to the Shamberg Houses and there was a party over there,
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Speaker 3: and it was this nice little young honey that I
4:39
Speaker 3: used to talk to back then, so I wanted to
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Speaker 3: go see your you know, going over to Shamberg Houses.
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Speaker 3: I didn't know the other four guys. I never met Yusuf,
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Speaker 3: didn't know Corey, didn't know Antroin, didn't know Kevin. All right,
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Speaker 3: this was a situation that happened because there was mutual
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Speaker 3: friends in the group. The Shamberg boys hung out, you know,
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Speaker 3: in front of their building all the time, so their
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Speaker 3: interest to Central Park was like their playground, right, And
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Speaker 3: so I went over there with a bunch of friends,
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Speaker 3: you know, trying to be tough. We you know, we
5:06
Speaker 3: back then we're going to other neighborhoods. You came in
5:08
Speaker 3: there with numbers, right, because that's just how things were
5:12
Speaker 3: back then. And so you know, it was mutual friends
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Speaker 3: in the group and just hanging out with dudes in
5:17
Speaker 3: the front of sean Berg led to go into the park.
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Speaker 3: And another thing was that originally I'm born in Harlem,
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Speaker 3: raised in the Bronx, and then.
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Speaker 2: I came back to Harlem. So when I come.
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Speaker 3: Back, I never really had dealings with Central Park. Wow,
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Speaker 3: So that was another thing. So here I was being
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Speaker 3: a follower or following the group into the park of
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Speaker 3: something that I really had no knowledge of, right, And
5:40
Speaker 3: so I get arrested that night. And for us, we
5:43
Speaker 3: you know, we're giving the death of parish ticket. It's
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Speaker 3: a family caught issue because we're charged with menacing truspassing riot.
5:53
Speaker 3: So we're given like misdemeaned charges and so we're supposed
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Speaker 3: to be seeing the judge within two days. So now
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Speaker 3: we just got way for the family members to come
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Speaker 3: pick us up. And it's in the wee hours in
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Speaker 3: the morning, they find this woman who's bounding gagged in
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Speaker 3: the bloody mavine and she has lost so much, so
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Speaker 3: much blood that they're thinking it's going to be a
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Speaker 3: homicide case, right, And so this is how the Homicide
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Speaker 3: North Detective Square comes in, you know, to interrogate fourteen
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Speaker 3: and fifteen year old kids. And so the landscape was
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Speaker 3: un It was never even playing field, was never even
6:25
Speaker 3: these were these are twenty year plus veterans. This was
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Speaker 3: the elite of the police force. We were fourteen to
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Speaker 3: fifteen year old kids who never dealt with the law.
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Speaker 3: They didn't even know what to expect in those interrogation rooms.
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Speaker 3: And then it just went hay white from there.
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Speaker 1: And you know when when when when when you're watching
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Speaker 1: the film on Netflix and the the interrogation room, Uh
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Speaker 1: was so emotional, man, And I'll be transparent, I cried
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Speaker 1: like a baby watching that because I could imagine being
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Speaker 1: a little black boy fourteen years old and the way
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Speaker 1: that you were cornered, yes, and you're just like, man,
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Speaker 1: I just want to go home. I don't know what happened.
7:14
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. And to see to
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Speaker 1: see a young boy be in such a vulnerable state
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Speaker 1: and no one not be able to speak up for him.
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Speaker 1: What was that like if you could step back into
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Speaker 1: that man, because that scene in the interrogation room, man
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Speaker 1: carries such weight emotionally because you can feel it coming
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Speaker 1: off the stream.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the part that we needed people to understand
7:41
Speaker 3: because a lot of people throughout this whole process, people
7:44
Speaker 3: always have that question of how do you confess to
7:46
Speaker 3: something you didn't do? Right, and so everybody gets defensive.
7:50
Speaker 3: But if it's me, I wouldn't I wouldn't say anything.
7:53
Speaker 3: But it always comes due to experience.
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Speaker 2: Right. Have you ever?
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Speaker 3: You know, have you've been pulled over by the police,
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Speaker 3: You know you have certain certain expressions, whether you upset
8:02
Speaker 3: or you afraid, right, because all dude experience. So for
8:05
Speaker 3: us going into those interrogation rooms, it starts off calm right, Hey, Raymond,
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Speaker 3: you know you was out last night with some friends.
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Speaker 3: What did you see happen? Take us to the story, right,
8:15
Speaker 3: and then you take them through the story of what
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Speaker 3: I saw, right, because I never seen no assaults and
8:20
Speaker 3: stuff like that happen. And so then it becomes well,
8:22
Speaker 3: wait a minute, what about this woman? And you go
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Speaker 3: what woman, And that's when you become blind sided. And
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Speaker 3: so you know, for us as fourteen to fifty ye
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Speaker 3: oh kids, it's estimated that we we are in those
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Speaker 3: interrogation rooms for fifteen to thirty hours, right yeah, well,
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Speaker 3: no food, no drink, you know, we're just in there
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Speaker 3: under pressure. And so for me, my grandmother sat in
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Speaker 3: the room with me, so a lot of times the
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Speaker 3: police had to interpret because she spoke. She spoke little English, right,
8:51
Speaker 3: she knew English curse words, but she couldn't carry a
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Speaker 3: conversation and the envier so they would have to they
8:57
Speaker 3: would have to stop and translate, and that became too long.
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Speaker 3: So now they figured off the way to get HOWD
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Speaker 3: through them. And then once they got out room is
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Speaker 3: when they start to work on me man. And that's
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Speaker 3: how it goes. It's something that happens over a long
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Speaker 3: period of time, and it gets you to a point
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Speaker 3: of helplessness so much that you feel like you are
9:15
Speaker 3: caught it. You feel like there is no other way
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Speaker 3: around it, and to the point that you feel like
9:19
Speaker 3: you're not even gonna make it out the priescst alive,
9:22
Speaker 3: excuse me. And so for me, it's a point in
9:26
Speaker 3: the film where you know, Detective Arroyal gets mad and
9:29
Speaker 3: he bangs on the table and he reaches old because
9:31
Speaker 3: he grabbed you, he wants to grab me, and at
9:33
Speaker 3: that moment, I feel like he's gonna kill me. I
9:35
Speaker 3: feel like he's you know, I'm not going to make
9:37
Speaker 3: it out the precinct. And at that same moment, another
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Speaker 3: detective comes in and he stops them, right, and I
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Speaker 3: just felt like, whow he saved my life.
9:45
Speaker 1: Wow?
9:46
Speaker 3: Right, and so and this is this is the good
9:48
Speaker 3: cop backcop that we see on CSI Law in Order.
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Speaker 3: But back then we didn't understand that as fourteen year old.
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Speaker 1: No right and then understand either the psychology on how
9:59
Speaker 1: they play all of it. They're different questions.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it didn't even know that there was a retechnique,
10:04
Speaker 3: which is seven steps on how you get somebody to
10:06
Speaker 3: confess like this stuff is legal. They can sit here
10:08
Speaker 3: and lie to you, you know, they can sit here
10:11
Speaker 3: and lie to you and tell you we have the DNA,
10:13
Speaker 3: we don't need you. And so for me, when he
10:16
Speaker 3: kicks that officer out the room and I feel like
10:18
Speaker 3: he saved my life, here comes the pitch. You know, Raymond,
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Speaker 3: I know you a good kid. I know you ain't
10:24
Speaker 3: do these things, but these kids, they are the priests
10:27
Speaker 3: saying that you did something. And he's like, you know,
10:29
Speaker 3: I need your help, right, And I don't even know
10:32
Speaker 3: what to say as a fourteen year old kid, because
10:34
Speaker 3: I've never been in no situation like this, So how
10:36
Speaker 3: do you even start to describe it? And so he
10:40
Speaker 3: pulls out this picture of Kevin Richardson and slides it
10:42
Speaker 3: to me and says do you know him? And I
10:43
Speaker 3: say no, and he says, well, you see the scratch
10:46
Speaker 3: on an aye that came from the woman. Now I
10:48
Speaker 3: know he going to prison, but I don't want you
10:50
Speaker 3: to go to prison, so I need your help. And
10:53
Speaker 3: then he just sat back and you know, in business, right,
10:56
Speaker 3: the first person who talks is the one that loses.
10:58
Speaker 3: I'm a fourteen year kid, this is it, right, So
11:01
Speaker 3: in my mind I'm formulating a lie. How can I
11:05
Speaker 3: stop this pressure from continuing?
11:07
Speaker 2: Right?
11:08
Speaker 3: And so then I go, okay, well it was Kevin
11:11
Speaker 3: and he said okay, but what did Kevin do?
11:13
Speaker 2: I don't know.
11:14
Speaker 3: So now he has to kind of walk me through it.
11:17
Speaker 3: And this is what he does, even down to where
11:20
Speaker 3: he says, he says, you know this woman had a
11:23
Speaker 3: lot of injuries around her face and her eyes. We
11:26
Speaker 3: didn't know she lost a lot of blood. Something had
11:28
Speaker 3: to be used, Raimond, A rock, a brick, a pipe, something.
11:32
Speaker 3: But at that moment, he's giving me options. He's telling me,
11:36
Speaker 3: pick one. I don't know the injuries. I don't know
11:39
Speaker 3: the severity of it, you know what I'm saying. I
11:41
Speaker 3: don't even know what weapon is used. But he gave
11:43
Speaker 3: me options. A rock, a brick, a pipe, something was used.
11:48
Speaker 3: And I go, A brick was used, and he says, okay,
11:50
Speaker 3: who used the brick? So now I gotta place somebody
11:53
Speaker 3: with the brick, the brick, right and then and so
11:56
Speaker 3: you go from that too. When you go to trial,
11:58
Speaker 3: the brick is produced like this is the brick.
12:02
Speaker 1: It makes it.
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Speaker 3: It makes the front page of the newspaper, you know,
12:06
Speaker 3: and this is this, This is what we had to
12:09
Speaker 3: deal with. You know, when you when you're going against
12:12
Speaker 3: a whole system, a whole city that labels you as
12:16
Speaker 3: as a wolf pack, as urban terrorists, as a wilding. Right,
12:23
Speaker 3: what they did was they set they set the stage
12:26
Speaker 3: so that America can be so mad and hurt by
12:29
Speaker 3: us that they would turn their backs.
12:31
Speaker 1: On us, and which which takes me into this next question.
12:37
Speaker 1: I've worked with the Latino community for a number of years.
12:41
Speaker 1: That culture is a very tight knit culture. What was
12:46
Speaker 1: that impact like with your family when the vertict before.
12:53
Speaker 3: The verdict, I mean, within the first two weeks of
12:55
Speaker 3: this case, it's estimated that over three to four hundred
12:58
Speaker 3: articles was written about us, dissecting the lives of fourteen
13:01
Speaker 3: and fifteen year old kids, how we were this, how
13:04
Speaker 3: we were with these bad app bad apples, Right, So
13:08
Speaker 3: it set the stage for people to to, you know,
13:11
Speaker 3: to you know, Donald Trump puts out the eighty five
13:14
Speaker 3: thousand dollars page ad calling for the death penalty pap
13:18
Speaker 3: u can and writes an article where he says that Corey,
13:21
Speaker 3: who's the oldest, needs to be hung in Central Park
13:23
Speaker 3: and the rest of us need to be horsewhipped. In
13:25
Speaker 3: eighty nine to ninety, people are calling for our castration,
13:29
Speaker 3: people calling for us to die. We received numerous death threats,
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Speaker 3: and so it becomes extra hard on the family, right.
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Speaker 2: I came from a big family.
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Speaker 3: My dad has three brothers on one side, my mama
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Speaker 3: has five six, and my bill was twenty five thousand.
13:43
Speaker 3: Nobody wanted to put up the money because they believed
13:46
Speaker 3: the narrative. The narrative was hit so hard that people
13:49
Speaker 3: took it hook line and sinker, even their family, even
13:52
Speaker 3: the family and knowing that you were this fourteen year
13:56
Speaker 3: old kid that loved music, were making movies for your dad,
14:01
Speaker 3: and everybody bought into the narrative.
14:03
Speaker 1: Dad Raymond did it? Yeah, the guilty of something. Man,
14:08
Speaker 1: how was d.
14:10
Speaker 3: I mean coming from a strong culture, right, I'm Puerto Rican?
14:14
Speaker 3: And so the whole family turns their back. Nobody wants
14:17
Speaker 3: to assist. I go through the system, right, I write
14:21
Speaker 3: Puerto Rican Defense Fund, I write legal a no answer.
14:25
Speaker 2: Right. For the first ten years of this.
14:27
Speaker 3: Case, it isn't even documented that I'm a Puerto Rican kid.
14:31
Speaker 3: Everybody believes that it's five black boys. They don't even
14:34
Speaker 3: makenowledge them on Puerto Rican. And this is how it goes,
14:38
Speaker 3: you know. And so it isn't until years later I
14:42
Speaker 3: meet a psychologist and he says, you Puerto Rican.
14:44
Speaker 2: I go yeah, and he says, wow, all these years
14:47
Speaker 2: we never knew this. Wow, I never was documented.
14:51
Speaker 1: And I'm sitting here, you know, putting myself in the
14:54
Speaker 1: shoes as a black man and I remember at fourteen
15:00
Speaker 1: parents are divorced, and I'm thinking about as an adolescent,
15:03
Speaker 1: when you experience those traumas in those adolescent years, what
15:08
Speaker 1: it does to you psychologically and physiologically, because now the
15:14
Speaker 1: brain has been reprogrammed. Yes, and once it's been reprogrammed,
15:20
Speaker 1: there's such a work that has to be done because
15:25
Speaker 1: you can't talk your way out of the freedom of
15:28
Speaker 1: what you've experienced, because not only were you in prison
15:33
Speaker 1: from a physical perspective, but also mentally and emotionally. And
15:39
Speaker 1: I know you can't unpack all of this, but that process, man,
15:44
Speaker 1: just and I want to think about this question because
15:50
Speaker 1: I want to ask, did you ever forgive your family
15:53
Speaker 1: or is that still the process?
15:55
Speaker 3: Later on, once we get to the ken Burns Dock, we're
15:59
Speaker 3: doing the run with the doc. Some of my family
16:03
Speaker 3: members and they was in California and they came to visit.
16:06
Speaker 3: We was at the AI Festival AFI Festival, and they
16:09
Speaker 3: came to visit and they got to see the doc
16:12
Speaker 3: and and some of them apologize, wow, you know, and
16:16
Speaker 3: at that point I accept the apology because you can't
16:19
Speaker 3: just stay bidter forever right that that, you know, like
16:22
Speaker 3: Yousuf always said that if you stay btter, then it
16:24
Speaker 3: eats you from within.
16:25
Speaker 1: But what is that when they said that they were sorry,
16:28
Speaker 1: how did your body respond to that apology?
16:31
Speaker 3: You know, it's a I told you so, right, It's
16:34
Speaker 3: one of those moments like I told.
16:35
Speaker 2: You like you didn't believe me?
16:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you gotta let them sit in that for
16:39
Speaker 3: a little bit, right, They got to feel that fire.
16:42
Speaker 1: And for those that are listening, it really wasn't the
16:46
Speaker 1: man that was saying I told you so. It was
16:49
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old huner that was saying I told
16:52
Speaker 1: you yeah, he gets to speak. Now listen now now
16:56
Speaker 1: not not not now, you in my in my I
17:00
Speaker 1: feel because I don't think we realize that most times
17:05
Speaker 1: when we have experienced things as adolescents and children, and
17:11
Speaker 1: when we become adults and when there is a moment
17:14
Speaker 1: of liberation, though it is the adult speaking, but it's
17:17
Speaker 1: really the child's voice, or it's the adolescent voice, or
17:21
Speaker 1: it's the voice of the innocent one, the one that
17:25
Speaker 1: you know, we were exploited in that moment of vulnerability.
17:29
Speaker 1: And what I'm loving about this Raymond, is that the
17:32
Speaker 1: fourteen year old Raymond got a moment to speak for himself.
17:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I knew that. I knew that that was
17:39
Speaker 3: that was heavy. I knew that that's and he gets
17:42
Speaker 3: it several times. He doesn't just get that one. Yes, Yes,
17:46
Speaker 3: it's that moment several times.
17:48
Speaker 2: Man, No, that's.
17:48
Speaker 1: Important that he has that moment. It's a several times.
17:53
Speaker 1: I'm just just so excited to hear because you know,
17:56
Speaker 1: as a therapist, I've said with you know so many
17:58
Speaker 1: different clients that that have come from many different walks
18:01
Speaker 1: of life. But what I'm enjoying about this is I
18:04
Speaker 1: can feel that your soul is liberated. Yeah, Like I
18:09
Speaker 1: can feel it because because I don't care when nobody
18:11
Speaker 1: say you can you can tell when somebody is still
18:14
Speaker 1: bound by something, yes, And I can tell that your
18:17
Speaker 1: soul is liberated, uh, and that your spirit is free.
18:20
Speaker 1: What is that like for you?
18:21
Speaker 3: For me going through the process, right, you know, it's
18:25
Speaker 3: like you're kid not having a voice and then at
18:28
Speaker 3: some point having a voice, and then understanding what the
18:31
Speaker 3: voice is supposed to do, right, and then utilizing the voice.
18:35
Speaker 3: Like I said, it's a constant thing of growth. And
18:39
Speaker 3: so for me, it's it's a powerful moment, you know,
18:47
Speaker 3: because it's it's it's it's always it's always a constant.
18:53
Speaker 2: Level of growth.
18:54
Speaker 3: Keep calling my phone. There's always a constant level of growth.
18:57
Speaker 3: And and for me with the motive becomes like it's
19:01
Speaker 3: like because you have all these downs, up and down,
19:04
Speaker 3: up and down, but understand that they supposed to happen, right,
19:08
Speaker 3: understanding that it's a part of the process.
19:10
Speaker 2: It's how you view it, right, what you put into it. Right.
19:14
Speaker 3: I had to learn that in prison, right, because you're
19:17
Speaker 3: not going anywhere. So when you stuck, but what do
19:20
Speaker 3: you The work that you put in is hopefully the
19:23
Speaker 3: growth that you get laiter on, you know what I'm saying.
19:25
Speaker 3: And that took me a minute to understand that. So
19:27
Speaker 3: it's it's it's the constant up and downs, but understanding
19:30
Speaker 3: that you do got to have those ups and downs
19:34
Speaker 3: in order to build some type of growth.
19:36
Speaker 2: You know, absolutely.
19:37
Speaker 1: Man, When when you were incarcerated, did you read any books?
19:41
Speaker 2: Yeah?
19:42
Speaker 1: What? What book? I gotta know this what book that
19:45
Speaker 1: you read that stood out to you and that really
19:48
Speaker 1: shifted your perspective.
19:49
Speaker 3: It's a moment. It's I you know, when I'm in prison,
19:52
Speaker 3: I wound up going to because at the time they
19:54
Speaker 3: had the GD program. So I get the gd program
19:57
Speaker 3: and then there's a college program at that. I mean,
20:00
Speaker 3: this is before BOTTACKI comes in in ninety five and
20:03
Speaker 3: he pulls the college program out of prisons. And so
20:07
Speaker 3: I remember taking this Black studies class and there was
20:09
Speaker 3: a professor by the name of Latif Islam who was
20:12
Speaker 3: a Tarwan figure, deep voice. When he spoke, everybody listened, right,
20:17
Speaker 3: And that kind of sparked me a little bit because
20:20
Speaker 3: it was an authority figure. And so he gave us
20:23
Speaker 3: this book for the syllabus, but also on the syllabus
20:27
Speaker 3: was like five other books. And I remember being a
20:29
Speaker 3: smart act smart alicant class and saying, why you give
20:33
Speaker 3: us all these books if we only use it one?
20:35
Speaker 3: And he says, young brother, you don't understand it right now,
20:38
Speaker 3: but one day you will. It will be a part
20:41
Speaker 3: of your arsenal. And I looked at him like a whatever.
20:45
Speaker 3: And it wasn't until I got through that class.
20:48
Speaker 2: Right.
20:48
Speaker 3: That kind of sparked something in me to understand what
20:52
Speaker 3: happened to me and how that plays into you know,
20:55
Speaker 3: into into into into the modern times. And then I
21:00
Speaker 3: went and looked at the books, right, and you know,
21:02
Speaker 3: there's always the Malcolm X right Biography of Malcolm X,
21:05
Speaker 3: which is like basic, that's the foundation. And then there
21:09
Speaker 3: was a miseducation or Negro by Carline G. Wilson, People's
21:12
Speaker 3: History by how It's in right.
21:14
Speaker 1: These are great books, great books.
21:16
Speaker 2: Of conspiracy to destroy Black Boys, Virus one, two, and three.
21:20
Speaker 1: Wow.
21:20
Speaker 3: And so I gave those books to my daughter. My
21:22
Speaker 3: daughter reads those books now. I still have them to
21:25
Speaker 3: this day. I don't even know how they've been with
21:27
Speaker 3: me all these years, but they have survived. And my
21:31
Speaker 3: daughter they now enjoyed it, so she reads them now.
21:35
Speaker 3: And so those books started to shape right, the mentality
21:41
Speaker 3: of wait a minute, something, something happened to us. This
21:44
Speaker 3: was a sinister plan and it worked. And now I'm
21:49
Speaker 3: sitting here serving time trying to figure out how right
21:54
Speaker 3: Because now I'm growing in the system. I don't leave
21:57
Speaker 3: exit that system until I'm twenty one, so I'd get
22:01
Speaker 3: to do a lot of effect and a lot of
22:02
Speaker 3: growth there. And those become the books.
22:05
Speaker 1: Wow.
22:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, those become the books.
22:07
Speaker 1: And I think is imperative for brothers that are listening
22:15
Speaker 1: and for the women that love the brothers, it's imperative
22:19
Speaker 1: to encourage brothers not to just read, but to seek knowledge.
22:24
Speaker 1: Seek knowledge, not to just read, but to seek knowledge.
22:28
Speaker 1: And also to seek growth because I run into a
22:32
Speaker 1: lot of brothers man that have not grown beyond leaving
22:35
Speaker 1: high school or their greatest moments. And to hear you
22:40
Speaker 1: because one of my favorite books is The Miseducation of
22:42
Speaker 1: a Negro by Cartigie Wilson, who is the grandfather of
22:45
Speaker 1: Black history. You do not have to concern yourself with
22:49
Speaker 1: what a man do if you can control how a
22:51
Speaker 1: man thinks. I mean, I'm just like, dude, give me more.
22:56
Speaker 1: And just to think about your growth today. You're a
23:01
Speaker 1: healing journey which is continuous. And to think about where
23:06
Speaker 1: you are now running for office, when you think about
23:10
Speaker 1: your legacy and you think about your path over the
23:14
Speaker 1: past thirty years, Man, give me three words that stands
23:18
Speaker 1: out to you.
23:20
Speaker 2: I sometimes unbelievable to see how far unthinkable.
23:31
Speaker 3: Right if somebody sat there and said, hey, you're going
23:34
Speaker 3: to go through this in thirties from now, you're going
23:36
Speaker 3: to be here, I would have been like crazy, Wow,
23:38
Speaker 3: I wouldn't even take the chance. Nah, I'm good, I'll
23:41
Speaker 3: go to other directions.
23:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
23:42
Speaker 3: Right, But the ups and downs again, the positives that
23:47
Speaker 3: come out of this process that turned into motivational factors, right,
23:52
Speaker 3: me having a daughter, me investing in her, right, turning
23:57
Speaker 3: her to an entrepreneur, and and she listens, right and
24:07
Speaker 3: for me, even when you get to office, Like I
24:12
Speaker 3: never thought i'd be ready for office. I knew I
24:15
Speaker 3: was an activist because I fought against the criminal justice
24:18
Speaker 3: system for so many years, and I knew that was
24:20
Speaker 3: my lane, and I knew I had a voice, and
24:22
Speaker 3: I knew I had a platform, and I knew that
24:25
Speaker 3: I can help, right, But I never.
24:28
Speaker 2: Thought public office would be the way.
24:30
Speaker 3: But when I looked at it, it became a natural
24:33
Speaker 3: form of progression. Right, fought against the system for all
24:37
Speaker 3: these years. One I get to relax for a little bit,
24:41
Speaker 3: I get to decompress. But then I start to feel
24:43
Speaker 3: like an old prize fighter who's retired. But I'm not
24:48
Speaker 3: supposed to be retired, right, I'm supposed to still be
24:52
Speaker 3: in the mix because I'm still young.
24:54
Speaker 2: I still got everything.
24:55
Speaker 3: God equip me with the tools to say, you can
24:57
Speaker 3: go out there and still put in work. It ain't over.
25:00
Speaker 3: And and it's at that point that I start to
25:03
Speaker 3: look at what's my next battle? And then I start
25:06
Speaker 3: to look at my neighborhood, right, going through my neighborhood.
25:09
Speaker 2: And see.
25:11
Speaker 3: The disparities that plague my neighborhood on the daily right,
25:16
Speaker 3: not enough affordable housing, not of school programs, the mental
25:21
Speaker 3: health that walks through my neighborhood on a regular basis, right,
25:23
Speaker 3: the drug power finalia. And so I'm like, if anybody's
25:27
Speaker 3: going to do it, why not you?
25:30
Speaker 2: Why not me? Right?
25:32
Speaker 3: And you know my daughter, you know, she helps in
25:35
Speaker 3: that because she becomes a mortivating factor for a lot
25:38
Speaker 3: of things that I do do. And when I talk
25:40
Speaker 3: to her about it, you know, she's like, you know,
25:43
Speaker 3: if you're going to do it, be about it, right.
25:46
Speaker 3: But even then I struggle with that. So even though
25:48
Speaker 3: I had her blessing, I didn't have the blessing from
25:51
Speaker 3: the manstairs.
25:52
Speaker 1: Yeah. Pause, I want you to pause, because I believe
26:01
Speaker 1: so many men need to hear that Raymond is deserning
26:07
Speaker 1: when to move and when not to move, and to
26:11
Speaker 1: think about that. You said, I have my daughter's blessing,
26:14
Speaker 1: but I don't have the man of stairs blessing.
26:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.
26:21
Speaker 1: Now, when you got the man of stairs blessing, what
26:25
Speaker 1: was your next move or should I say next step?
26:28
Speaker 2: I jumped on the flight and came here. That was it.
26:31
Speaker 3: Like the man said, said, this is where you need
26:34
Speaker 3: to go, So you don't waited for direction.
26:37
Speaker 2: I waited for that.
26:38
Speaker 3: And that's the credibility that I feel I have with God,
26:42
Speaker 3: is that I.
26:44
Speaker 2: Knew when to sit and wait for direction.
26:48
Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw my notes. I'm gonna throw my notes
26:52
Speaker 1: because so many men need to learn that, because it's
26:58
Speaker 1: it's wisdom. It is, and it's also knowing when it's
27:02
Speaker 1: the right season and timing of the thing. And brother,
27:06
Speaker 1: I like you just bless me, because that's that's how
27:09
Speaker 1: I move. If I don't feel it and I haven't
27:12
Speaker 1: gotten clear instructions on it, I gotta sit still.
27:16
Speaker 3: Even in this process, I threw obstacles on the purpose
27:20
Speaker 3: and said, no, hand do that. If you want me
27:23
Speaker 3: to go, hand do that. And then it got handed
27:25
Speaker 3: it and I was like, oh, okay, you serious about
27:28
Speaker 3: this one man?
27:30
Speaker 1: You sound like prophet where he was just like he
27:32
Speaker 1: was like, yo, I'm gonna test you guy. I'm gonna
27:34
Speaker 1: put this wood out here. Let me see what you're
27:35
Speaker 1: gonna do with it, and and and it wasn't. I
27:39
Speaker 1: didn't ask no silly questions.
27:41
Speaker 3: I mean, it was God, if you want me to
27:44
Speaker 3: go do this, you know where my heart is with
27:46
Speaker 3: me this child? How do we work that? Because I'm
27:50
Speaker 3: a father, you know that. You know I'm taking care
27:53
Speaker 3: of this one. And he says, all right, I got you.
27:56
Speaker 3: And when he does it, it's like, what's the excuse?
27:59
Speaker 3: And that all right, Well, you know it's gonna be
28:02
Speaker 3: a problem for me to go to New York City
28:03
Speaker 3: and get some housing.
28:05
Speaker 1: Done.
28:08
Speaker 2: I went up there in the hotel for four days.
28:10
Speaker 2: My apartment was ready.
28:12
Speaker 3: No, no matter how you put it, there's no way
28:17
Speaker 3: you got it. All right, this is what we're doing. Okay,
28:21
Speaker 3: let's go and we announce our run. We've been on
28:24
Speaker 3: the run now about maybe three weeks. And I mean,
28:29
Speaker 3: what people don't understand is that they think that I'm
28:33
Speaker 3: here to get a city council in position. And God
28:37
Speaker 3: tell me, Na, you here to get the people. The
28:40
Speaker 3: people are going to give you the city council in position.
28:44
Speaker 3: You got to get them first while and that becomes
28:47
Speaker 3: the motivation. That's why we're in the projects, knocking on
28:51
Speaker 3: the doors talking to people and they're looking at me like,
28:53
Speaker 3: what are you doing here? I'm like, I'm here to
28:55
Speaker 3: get your perspective on what you need because I can't
28:58
Speaker 3: go in there and argue for you if I haven't
29:00
Speaker 3: talked to.
29:00
Speaker 2: You first wisdom all day.
29:04
Speaker 1: I can't speak up for you if I don't understand
29:07
Speaker 1: the need that's wisdom, man, Man, Raymond, listen, Man, I
29:12
Speaker 1: can talk to you all day, brother, because you're blessing me. Man,
29:15
Speaker 1: because I love men who operate in wisdom. I love
29:20
Speaker 1: men who operate instructions and in order, because I think
29:23
Speaker 1: that's what we need more of. And you know, I
29:27
Speaker 1: wanted to dive into this, but I didn't because just
29:29
Speaker 1: to think, the person who took out an ad on
29:34
Speaker 1: you know, you guy's fate, it's the same person who's
29:36
Speaker 1: running this country now. And I don't even It's just like,
29:43
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? Man? But you know, and I
29:47
Speaker 1: don't want to give that too much energy because what
29:49
Speaker 1: you just shared here today with the audience of just
29:55
Speaker 1: your journey, man, has not only inspired me, but it's
29:58
Speaker 1: encouraged me because not only are you reflective of your journey,
30:04
Speaker 1: but you're reflective of who kept you on your journey.
30:09
Speaker 1: Because I say that often, man, like if you'd have
30:12
Speaker 1: told me I would be a therapist and be a
30:14
Speaker 1: doctor like twenty years ago, I've been like no, because
30:17
Speaker 1: I I'm an all sports guy, like sitting down talking
30:20
Speaker 1: to people about mental health, like get out of here.
30:23
Speaker 1: But just to see how the journey unfolds when we
30:29
Speaker 1: lean into the process and to see healing is really
30:33
Speaker 1: tied to surrenderingah, and so in closing, you surrender in closing.
30:39
Speaker 1: I ask every guest, what does healing means to you? Raymond?
30:46
Speaker 3: For me, healing is a continuous process, right, It's the
30:52
Speaker 3: overcoming of obstacles, of scars. It's just the ability to
30:58
Speaker 3: do what's right at the end of the day. For me,
31:03
Speaker 3: I had to overcome that several times, Like once I
31:06
Speaker 3: learned I had the voice, then I had to use
31:08
Speaker 3: the voice. Once you started using the voice, it became therapeutic.
31:12
Speaker 2: Right.
31:13
Speaker 3: I traveled, Me and Yusuf probably did the most traveling
31:15
Speaker 3: all across the country talking to students, right, And so
31:20
Speaker 3: that became therapeutic to sit in front of them and
31:22
Speaker 3: tell them my story and then engage with them. And
31:25
Speaker 3: then also we did so good in the process, right,
31:28
Speaker 3: And so for me it always healing has always been
31:31
Speaker 3: continuous until I get to this point of running for office. Right,
31:37
Speaker 3: it's at that point because you know, I go through
31:40
Speaker 3: a divorce, Right, I go through a divorce, highly publicized divorce.
31:45
Speaker 3: I come back to New York City, and so the
31:51
Speaker 3: healing it when I get to this point of stepping
31:57
Speaker 3: into what I can perceive it's my purpose, right, that's
32:02
Speaker 3: when it becomes like a full fledged surrendering because now
32:06
Speaker 3: I see it, right, He's showing me, this is what
32:09
Speaker 3: I have in store for you. You got to step
32:12
Speaker 3: in because you have no other direction. So it becomes
32:15
Speaker 3: a surrendering.
32:16
Speaker 2: Yes, alright, God, you know what. You're right, you got me.
32:21
Speaker 2: We hear.
32:21
Speaker 3: Now, let's walk through the door. And I think that
32:24
Speaker 3: once I stepped into that of chasing the purpose, nothing
32:28
Speaker 3: else because the most important thing to me is my
32:31
Speaker 3: child is taken care of. Because he said he got her,
32:35
Speaker 3: I can full just just just fully indulge in just
32:40
Speaker 3: the glory.
32:41
Speaker 1: Right.
32:42
Speaker 3: I can be like, yo, we're hear that, Like I
32:44
Speaker 3: can have these conversations if you converse with God like that. Yes, well,
32:48
Speaker 3: I'm like, yo, you really want me to do this, right,
32:52
Speaker 3: But you know my circle is extremely small because I
32:57
Speaker 3: don't want the outside influences I don't want the negative energy.
33:00
Speaker 3: Yeah right, because the purpose is that big. If I'm
33:05
Speaker 3: able to get into office and make some type of
33:09
Speaker 3: change that the people can see, it can start the
33:13
Speaker 3: start right. And that's what it's about. That's why I
33:15
Speaker 3: said I'm not here for the position. I'm here for
33:18
Speaker 3: the people. The people are gonna give me the position
33:20
Speaker 3: because they see me worthy of it. And that's my
33:23
Speaker 3: whole campaign pitch. People go, well, you know, people are
33:28
Speaker 3: they lost hope, they feel beat down, they feel defeated
33:32
Speaker 3: through the politics, and I go, I'm not a politician.
33:35
Speaker 3: I'm just a man who loves his community and I'm
33:38
Speaker 3: here sent by God. He told me to come.
33:40
Speaker 2: Here, So it's really up to y'all.
33:42
Speaker 3: Man, I'm here to do the work if you let me,
33:46
Speaker 3: if you support me, if you allow me, I asked him.
33:49
Speaker 3: I say, you know, in politics, me as one person
33:54
Speaker 3: is going to getst an entity that has been in
33:56
Speaker 3: power in East Harlem and in South Bronx for twenty
33:59
Speaker 3: plus years, and I'm coming here to bring some change.
34:03
Speaker 2: Its clean cut. Either you want the change or you don't.
34:08
Speaker 2: I'm just here to show you that it can be possible.
34:10
Speaker 2: It's here.
34:11
Speaker 1: Listen, I don't know what you took away from this conversation,
34:17
Speaker 1: but the one thing that I hope that you take
34:19
Speaker 1: away is what Raymond said is that healing is continual.
34:25
Speaker 1: It is a continual process. And I'm not sure where
34:27
Speaker 1: you are on your journey, and you may be just beginning,
34:31
Speaker 1: you may be in the middle, you may be on
34:33
Speaker 1: the end, and you may feel like, you know, I'm
34:35
Speaker 1: taking a break because I think sometimes you have to
34:38
Speaker 1: take a break from therapy, take a break from anything
34:40
Speaker 1: that you may feel that is healing or therapeutic, because
34:43
Speaker 1: sometimes the body just needs a moment to just be.
34:47
Speaker 1: And I hope that you had an opportunity to experience
34:51
Speaker 1: what being is and operating in your purpose after experience trauma,
34:58
Speaker 1: going through something that has probably looked like you would
35:03
Speaker 1: not come out of it. And today you got to
35:06
Speaker 1: hear from an example from Raymond, to hear what his
35:09
Speaker 1: thirty plus year year journey has been navigating life just
35:16
Speaker 1: from a fourteen year old kid to now being a
35:20
Speaker 1: man who's running for office, a man who is for
35:23
Speaker 1: the people. And I love what he said. I cannot
35:27
Speaker 1: speak for you until I know what you need, and
35:31
Speaker 1: I don't know about you guys, he has my vote.
35:35
Speaker 1: And so what I would love to lead the listeners
35:39
Speaker 1: with is it doesn't matter where you are, you can
35:44
Speaker 1: always start over. And starting over doesn't mean that you're
35:48
Speaker 1: starting from scratch, you know, you just pick up with
35:53
Speaker 1: what you have and maybe what you have is all
35:55
Speaker 1: that you need to continue the process. And Brother, what
35:58
Speaker 1: I am praying for you, Raymond, is that this campaign, man,
36:01
Speaker 1: is seamless. It's encouraging, and it's invigorating to those that
36:05
Speaker 1: you're going to encounter. And I pray that you know
36:09
Speaker 1: the team and that those that are supporting you continue
36:12
Speaker 1: to undergird you, man. And I'm praying for a victory
36:15
Speaker 1: because we need more brothers like yourself that are representing
36:21
Speaker 1: the people and not representing themselves.
36:23
Speaker 2: Man.
36:23
Speaker 1: And so brother, I want to thank you for having
36:26
Speaker 1: this conversation man with me on the Just Heal with
36:30
Speaker 1: Doctor J Podcasts brought to you by The Black Effect
36:32
Speaker 1: and iHeart Media. Listen, family, this is what we do here.
36:38
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