Latest / The You Project / #1610 Don't Get In Meggie's Way - Meggie Palmer

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#1610 Don't Get In Meggie's Way - Meggie Palmer · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, I tell them it's the bloody you projected, Harps,
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: It's it's Meggie. It's I feel like this is going
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: to be fifty minutes of fucking mayhem. But that's all right.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: We've known each other, Yeah, we've known each other for
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: a rock solid three minutes, and it's it's we're already
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: having issues, which could be a sign of things to come. O. Meggie,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: welcome to the show.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. What a tree? What a tree?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure? Where are you tell my? Tell my audience
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: where you're at at the minute.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, So I live in New York City. I actually
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: moved to Brooklyn.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: So that's right.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I'm in my in my home office in Brooklyn, New York.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Why why did you move there? What? What what took
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: you there?
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I guess adventure. I guess growth from a business perspective
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: and a personal perspective, and I guess, like, why not? Although,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: now that I reflect on it, now that you've asked
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: me that question, and you did, we did talk about
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: a commitment to be very courageous and open and honest
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: in this conversation. So I want to try. I want
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: to stay true to that. I think part of the
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: reason honestly, Craig. Where I left was I found it
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: a business focused on the gender pay gap and really
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of unconscious bias that exists. And at the
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: time when I left Australia seven or eight years ago,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I didn't really feel like I could have as many
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: open conversations about that topic I would have liked. And
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: I found that in New York City people were more
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: open to having those conversations. I think that's different now.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: I think Australia has changed a lot since then, But
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: at the time I kind of felt like I needed
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: to go somewhere where people were more willing to have
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: those conversations.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: How did you fit into Because New York is pretty chaotic.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: It's amazing, it's beautiful, it's a fucking tapestry of humanity
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: and all of those things, but it's also bedlam. How
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: have you fitted in? Ah?
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it can be chaotic for sure. And you know
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: what's so interesting Being in Brooklyn now, I'm like, ah,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: just that little bit more zan, which I love. Look,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: you know, I was really lucky when I moved to
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: New York. People Americans, well maybe not Americans. New Yorkers
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: are very generous and open with their networks. Certainly that
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: was my experience. So you'd meet someone who'd introduce you
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: to someone, who'd invite you to a party, who'd introduce
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: you to someone. So I kind of felt very adopted
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: and very hugged and very embraced. But there's also very
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: niche communities here, Craig. So, like, if you are, you know,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: a guitar playing softball loving, I don't know, Vegan, you
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: can find your people, you know what I mean. So
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: there's a lot like very specific like women entrepreneur communities.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Like so I kind of like found my people and
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: that was really hard.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: So where'd you grow up? Meggie?
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: So I grew up on a farm west of the
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Gold Coast in a place called Guanaba, like a small farm,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: grew up there, so school on the Goldie shout out
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: to sea, Queensland is listening. And went to Brisbane to
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: study and then you know, traveled all over the East
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: and Seaboard to different cities for work as a journalist.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Wow. And have you family come over to visit you
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: in New York?
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Super lucky they come over. We have a visitor
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: at least once a year, if not more times than
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: that a year which is also get to have quality
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: time with them here as well.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: So what was your first gig out of school or
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: what did you study? I know you went to UNI.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I know I know the answer to some of these questions,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: But what did you study at UNI? So?
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I studied business and journalism when I was at UNI,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: and I majored in What are I major? In? Public relations?
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: And Italian? I think was what I majored in.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I heard it was beer and nightclubs.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: But okay, well, yeah, that's that's well, that's true. Actually,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: So I went to college. I lived on campus at
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Cromwell College, shout out to any Cromwellians. And I really
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: got a degree in party a master's in partying. Shall
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: we say?
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Nice? Nice? Yeah? What did you think? What? What did
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: you think you were going to do when you left?
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: What was the was the intention to be a journo?
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: No, it's a weird thing, isn't it. Like when you're
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: like seventeen, you're basically like, what don't I do with
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: the next fifty years of my life? It's so weird.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: I just remember, like, you know, like skimming through that
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: book where you could like choose all the different courses,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: and I was like, it was just like throwing a
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: dart at a random book. It's so random to make
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: that decision at such a young age. I just wanted
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: to do something with people and right, and I didn't
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: know I didn't really want to be a journal I
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: actually had an ex boyfriend who threw a random set
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: of circumstances in some ways influenced me to end up
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: becoming a journalist.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: So there you go. It is. It is weird, right
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: that at seventeen I was Some would argue I'm still
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: a more on, but I was definitely a more on
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: at seventeen, right, I was a fucking I'm not even
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: being self deprecating. I was a fucking idiot in terms
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: of I didn't study it. No, I really was. I
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: didn't pay attention. It's preoccupied with girls in sport. You know.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: My vision for the future was about three days write.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Anything beyond that was overwhelming. And then they're like, exactly,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: especially when I was a kid, they're like, all right,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: so what do you want to do for let's say,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: othern't know the next half century. I don't know what
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: I want to do next Tuesday, right, right, So.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember this cra I felt
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: so much pressure. I went to a very academic high school, though,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: but I just felt like there was a lot of
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: pressure to like you had to go to you just
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: like I don't know, it's just a lot on kids' shoulders,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Like it's a lot. I just think we should all
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: chill out. Life is long, you know.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I also think the idea that you need to find
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: the thing that you're going to do for the next
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: one hundred years is a dumb idea. I don't think
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: it's founded in any logic, and I guess through necessity
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: in the olden days, you know, before you were around.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: But I get it. But also at the same time,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I think, now it's like my training partner, his daughter
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: I've been I've known since she was a baby, and
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: she's nineteen now. She's just doing a gym instructor's course
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: and she doesn't really know what she's fitness instructor PT
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: all that stuff, and she's asking me because of my background,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: she's asking me questions every seven minutes, right, And I see,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: do you know what, it doesn't matter like do it
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: for ten minutes. You might love it, you might hate it.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: You could be a fucking neurosurgeon. In ten years, you
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: could be a pilot, you could be you can be
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: what you know. It's like, you do not need to
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: figure it out now, figure out what you want to
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: do in the short term. Do that because you might,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: I reckon, like a lot of forty year olds in
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: the future are going to have had fifteen careers by
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: the time they get there.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Totally, totally, so it's okay. Well, and to your point,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: sometimes figuring out what you don't want to do is
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: just as powerful that's figuring out what you do want
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: to do. Like I remember being like fourteen or fifteen
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: and we had to do work experience and I was
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: like very argumentative, shocker, love to argue with my dad, debating, etc.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: I was that kid anyway. So I was like, I'm
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: going to be a lawyer. That's going to be great.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Everyone's like, yeah, you're going to be a lawyer. So
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I did work experience with a QC like some fancy
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: lawyer in Brisbane, and it was like it was the worst.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Like I just remember these misogynistic lawyers in the elevator.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: I remember the way they looked at her, even though
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: she was like more senior than them. The way they
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: was just gross. And then the way they would look
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: at me, and I just knew. I was like, they're
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: never going to take me seriously, like they're always going
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: to treat me as a second class citizen in this industry.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I just kind of just and I was like, I
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: just can't handle that. I'm going to get myself into trouble.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: So I just decided not to do law because of
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: that work experience.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Wow experience.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: So it's good though. I'm glad because otherwise I would
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: have done law, and who knows where I would have
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: ended up.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: How old were you when you had that experience, I.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Reckon I was. I must have been fourteen or fifteen.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: I was so young, but I just knew. I was like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: because you know, when you're little and you're in a
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: school or whatever, you don't really know the real world
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: and how like people discriminate. And also, to be fair,
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: you know, very privileged to have not experienced discrimination up
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: until that point. But I was just like I just
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: kind of became really aware of misogyny and just like
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: I was just I could just sense it. It was
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: a really weird experience, but I just knew. I was like,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: it's not for me.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Wow, And so how old are you now?
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm forty. Just had the big.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Foun Hell you're a dinosaur, al.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Right, halfway to eighty, let's go.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: So I'm just trying to get a context of what
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: year that experience was. So that must have been really
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: late nineties, right, yeah.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Yep, late yeah, ninety eight ninety nine.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: And so we're quarter of a century later. Has it
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: changed a lot, a bit or not at all?
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: What a great question. No, I think it has absolutely.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: I think it's changed, I really do. I mean, listen,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: does that still exist? Maybe I should do work experience
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: in a law firm again. Perhaps, but I imagine it's
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: more veiled now. I imagine it's not as overt as
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: it was back then. I think we've made progress, absolutely,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: and we will continue to make progress. So if you
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: look at the data, the un reckons we're two hundred
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: years away ish from equality, and so it's just like,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: which is like, so the good news is we're making
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: progress progress. The bad news is it's taking too long.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: In my humble opinion, So you know, my whole thing
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: is like, well, I could sit around for two hundred
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: years and see what happens or could try each of
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: us in our own way to make ripple effects today, tomorrow,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: the next day, so that eventually things crossed, we get
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: to a tidal wave of change, so that hopefully those
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: sticks come down to a shorter timeframe.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: And so with equality in this kind of financial sense,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: you're talking like pay equality, I'm guessing it for this
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: particular Yeah, so I don't even I mean, I know
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: that it's real, but I don't even understand because I don't,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: like I've employed five hundred people right over the years.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I don't even understand how that, like, if you're doing
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: the same thing, Like, how do people even justify that?
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Because I remember you telling a story you were chatting
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: with Luke on his podcast.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Luke's the best.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've been on each other show I think,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: or he's definitely been on this one. But and you
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: were talking about an experience that you had as a
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: journo where you that other people correct me if I
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: fuck this up, but doing the same thing as you
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: were getting paid more, and you went in and went, hey,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: you guys, here's an oversight, you silly guys, just so
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: you know, and they went, no, that's just how it
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: is essentially yeah that the truth.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, you didn't fuck that story up. You
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: nailed it. So yeah. So, And I think in my
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: experience and in a lot of experiences, when you think
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: about the gender pay gap, which impacts women and also minorities,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: you know, women of color are impacted to a much
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: larger degree. When you think about that, most of it's
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: not conscious. So it's not like my boss, my old
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: news director, was like, yeah, let's screw over Meggie, Yeah,
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: let's do it. It's just like they had a pool of money,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: they a couple of things. They probably knew that certain
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: people were going to blow up more than others if
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: they didn't get a certain number. And it's unconscious, right,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: And so actually, come this is so wild. But if
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: you look, there's three separate studies in three different countries,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Craig that have actually shown that little girls get paid
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: less pocket money than little boys. And like, parents are
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: not assholes, and parents typically want to raise their kids fairly, right,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: It's just that there's a perception that if I'm chopping
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: the wood with dad in the paddock or in the
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: backyard or whatever for the fireplace, that is quote unquote
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: tougher work than if someone is helping around the house
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: set the table for dinner, for example. So there is
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: a perception that certain types of work is tougher or
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: harder or whatever, and so there is a disproportionate value
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: put on that. So you know, women dominated industries are
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: massively paid less than men dominate industries. So for example,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: like childcare and nursing are paid less than say banking
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: or insurance for example, which are more pale dominated. And
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: actually what happens is as more women go into certain industries,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: the average wage in those industries starts to drop. So
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: it's a deep seated like generational bias that exists that
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: isn't even conscious for all of us, by the way,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: I have unconscious bias, by the way, So you are
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: there things that we can do to make that more
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: conscious have shifted act to me, yes, But as you
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: know from your scientific background as well, like unconsciously, there's
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: things that just happen because it's what we saw in
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: the media, or it's what happened in preschool, or it's
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: what GRAMDMA used to say to us, you know, So
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: all of those factors as well as other factors like
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: for example, women do take more time out for caring responsibilities,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: so that impacks the data as well, for sure. And
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: also women are socialized or girls are socialized to want
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: to do certain jobs like teaching, like nursing, which historically
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: have been paid less. So society has said, nurses, we're
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: going to value about here. Investment bankers, y'all are the
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: real deal. We're going to pay you a hell of
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: a lot more. So there's three major factors that impact it.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: And as I say, a lot of that's not conscious necessarily.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and I think that, yeah, it ends up
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: where it ends up. But it's like it's it's financial,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: it's sociological, it's cultural, it's psychological. Like you said, I
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: can't imagine too many parents are sitting around saying, all right,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: well let's give her five bucks. Let's give him eight
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: bucks because he's got a penis. Yeah. You know, it's like, yeah,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: it is really interesting. All right, tell me about pep
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: talk her.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So basically to your story earlier, when I was
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: a journal found out through a male ally actually who
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: gave me a wink wink nudge nudge background info. He
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: was like, yo, you're getting screwed on pay. I was
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: like what never and and turns out, long story short,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: I was getting paid less. My paying conditions were quite
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: different to my male colleagues, which I thought was bullshit. Obviously,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I decided to say something because that's how I was raised,
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: the debater in me. If you see something something and
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: let's just say it didn't go down too well, Yeah,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: so they were pissed off that I knew they were
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: pissed off that I wanted something done about it, and
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: so that was kind of the genesis for being like,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: h if this is happening to me, I backed myself.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: I knew I was an excellent journal I knew I'd
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: get another job. I was like, if it's happening to me,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: other people must be getting raally screwed over to and
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: sure enough, again, I didn't really know much about it then.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't understand the statistics. I didn't know that it's
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: fifteen to twenty percent of a pay gap, depending on
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: how you slice and dize the numbers. I didn't know
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: that was happening, and I became really interested. How could
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: you change it? So, long story short, I stayed as
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: a journal and foreign correspondent for a couple more years,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: but on the side. I was kind of working on
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: this idea of pep talker and how could we close
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: the pay gap sooner? And how could I support professional
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: women to earn more cash and get promoted faster. Because
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: I'm a big believer, Craig, and I know you are too,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: of like when women have more money, like, awesome things happen,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: right because funny, use your choice. It gives you possibility.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: It allows you to make different take different roads in
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: your life and your career.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: And are we progressing slowly significantly somewhere in twin like
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: is the progress? Are you happy with the rate of
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: change and the rate of awareness and movement that you're seeing?
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, listen, obviously we'd all love to click our
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: fingers and say puff, it's all perfect, it's done, it's fixed,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: it's it's you know, we're all quote unquote equal perfect.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: We live in this nirvana world. Now, obviously, progress could
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: always be quicker. Someone said to me once, Actually I
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: was a journalist. He said, Maggie, it takes a long
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: time to turn a big ship, saying that three times quickly,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: and you mentioned it. But anyway, so I think about
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: this idea of like a big ship turning. And when
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: you think about cultural change in the workplace, when you
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: think about societal change of equality of the gender pay gap,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: it does take a long time. I wish I could
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: shove the ship around and fix it straight away, but
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: I'm learning that that's not the way the world works.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Do I wish it would change faster? Yes, Equally, you
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: and I having this conversation, like your listeners in ninety
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: countries around the world are thinking about this now and
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I ruminating on it, and hopefully they'll talk about it
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: at dinner party, you know, Like to me, that's exciting.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: And again collectively, as this happens more and more and more,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: we will see more change. And we are seeing change.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: So we saw we went backwards during COVID, but we
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: are again gradually progressing. The statistics and the data is
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: getting better. So actually, in Australia and also in the
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: United Kingdom, the major employers in the country have to
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: publicly report what their gender pay gap statistics are, So
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: if you work for a big company in the UK
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: or Australia, you can google that. In Australia it's called
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: wood GEA, the Women and Gender Equality Agency, And in
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: the UK, I can't remember it, but if you just
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: search gender pay gap United Kingdom you'll find And so
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: that transparency and openness in talking about it, yeah, is
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: making the companies go to share. We better fix that,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: right because there's a spotlight wow, and it's on the
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: front page of the paper once even report comes out.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, policies changing, governments are starting to talk about it.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: We're seeing superannuation top ups and retirement top ups in
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: certain countries for leave. So things are changing and in
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: my mind that's a good thing. I'd love it to
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: happen more and more and more, but it will. Let's
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: say this is generational change, so it's unfortunately going to
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: take a long time.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: So I know you were argumentative and a debata, well
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: a debata and probably loved a good argument and loved
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: standing up for yourself and others, which is awesome. But
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: were you Were you always entrepreneurial? Like did you like
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: I was? I I hated having a job, yeah yeah, yeah,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I had my first business at night. Not really a hustler.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I just didn't like the traditional work model, Like I
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: haven't had a job in inverted commets since I was
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: twenty five, So yeah, like working for an employer. So
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: thirty five years I've worked for me, and I just
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: like the freedom and the flexibility and the creativity and
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: the problem solving and the growth and the experience that
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: comes with figuring shit out she go, and not having
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: not having sick pay and not having holiday pay, and
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: not having certainty and not having predictability. For whatever reason,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I thrive in the middle of that. And yeah, but
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: for you, was that always like did you want to
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: work for you or did you think you would work
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: for someone else forever?
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: I don't think I really knew, to be honest, Craig,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I think my Sisla, my sister is much more entrepreneurial
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: than I am. And to be honest, maybe I mean
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: my dad had his own business. He was an engineer
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: and had his own business. I don't think I really knew.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: I don't think I knew when I you know, it
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: took me a long time to figure out that I
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: needed to create a new way of you know, funding
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: a paycheck and figuring out it took me until I
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: was probably at least thirty, yeah, maybe twenty nine to thirty.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: But my sister, she was that person who, like everyone else,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: was going to the mall, or you know, going to
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: parties on the weekends, and she was down on the
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: Gold Coast selling silver that she had imported from China
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: when she was fourteen. She was a true entrepreneur, I think.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: So I learned a lot from her. And she now
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: owns very successful bakeries on the Gold Coast like Paddock
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and Bam Bam, and she's got a big one down
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: at Talibudre called Custard Canteen. So she runs these amazing
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: bakeries and restaurants. So she's very entrepreneurial and I learned
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: a lot from her. I think for me it probably
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: was less in my blood as it was for her,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: and it was more circumstance. So as a foreign correspondent,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: you know, if there's a natural disaster, there's a big story,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: something happens on Twitter or on you know, the BBC,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: on breaking news, you potentially have to get your bag
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: and get to an airport. And I just didn't want
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: to live with my phone under my pillow when I
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: slept anymore. I was like I was I was moving
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: towards anxiety, and I was like, this is not healthy
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: for me, and I can't do this long term. And
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: I admire my colleagues who do, and I'm grateful that
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: they tell the stories around the world that we all
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: need to know about. But it just it wasn't gonna
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: be sustainable for me for the next forty years. So
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: I was like, hmm, what does it look like if
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: I'm not doing this? What transferable skills do I have?
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: So when I was journal I started as a side
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: hustle a media training company. So I started to figure
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: out what's an invoice, what's a profit margin? Like, how
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: do you make cash? How do you get someone to
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: buy from you? I don't know because I don't teach
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: you that stuff, even a business school like I didn't
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: teach us that even as a like, no one teaches
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: you know it, don't even get started.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting, sorry to interrupt, but not at all
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: in how many courses, even at university. Like when I
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: did my undergrad degree in exercise science, I was in
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I was in my thirties, right, I'd already been working
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: in fitness industry for one hundred years, and I was amazed.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: This is an indictment. I shouldn't even say it, but
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: this is true. So when a three year full time
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: three year undergrad degree in exercise science. There was one
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: one semester which equaled twelve lectures on programming exercise in
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: a three year degree. Right, So there was of course,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: you know, anatomy, physiology by maca all the other stuff,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: but in terms of come out as an exercise scientist
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: and in the three years there was about twelve hours
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: of how to write and prescribe exercise or how to
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: you know, And it was I'm like, oh wow. And
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: then when you think about even in you know, so
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: my PhD is in neuropsych and my undergrad is you know,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: in exercise science. But you think about in how much
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: of these jobs is dependent on your ability to create
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: connection and rapport and communicate and to understand other people
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: and to at least have an insight into someone else's
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: reality and to be able to build trust and respect
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: and create an experience with you know. None of that
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: is taught, like, none of that, so we get I
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: used to have people that would come to me with
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: sometimes honors and master's degrees, who would want a job
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: in one of my gyms. So one we're all personal training,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: all appointment based, higher level stuff, right, and they would
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: they were brilliant with bodies, but terrible with people. Like
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: they they would understand the anatomy and physiology of something,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: but in terms of creating a great experience or having
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: a meaningful conversation, or or saying, hey, Meggie, how is
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: your weekend? What did you get up to? By the way,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: what you eat for brecky? Why the fuck did you
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: eat cocoa pops? What's going on? No capacity you know
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: and no one like it's And I've said this to
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: a lot of people, whether or not you're a banker
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: or a trainer, or a doctor or a you know,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: a service provider in some other area. If you can't
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: connect with people and build rapport and create great conversations
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: and understand someone else's version of right now and tap
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: into that and build trust, like you can't do your job.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Well, you can't. You can't get the change to happen.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: You can't take it from A to B. If they
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: won't even walk with you to be they're like, fuck,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: there's this guy's the worst or this girl is the worst.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: So I don't want to spend time with them. I
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: don't trust them.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Well, also, yeah, in the moment, having that understanding that
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: you know like you and I are in the same
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: conversation but not the same experience.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: So let's unpack that a little more. Yeah, what does
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: that mean to you?
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: So it means that while you know, like everything, that
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: every time you're in the middle of or I'm in
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: the middle of an experience like right now, we're looking
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: at that or we're experiencing it through our own lens,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: through our own window of understanding, through our own inner language,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: our own inner storytelling. So I might you know, like,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: let's say, f now, for example, twenty thousand people, no,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: let's make it a small number, ten people listen to
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: this show. Yeah, right now, someone's going, fucking hell, how
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: good's Meggie? And someone else is gone, eh, I don't know,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: maybe that whole bullshit pay gap and right, so, oh,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Brian's there going fuck Meggie, what does she know? You
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: know whatever? Right, and someone else is going, oh, thank
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: god for this woman. She's a breath of fresh air, harps,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: can you get her on again? So it's not about
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: what you're saying or I'm saying. It's about how people
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: experience and processes. And so we are you are, I am,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: our listeners are consciously unconsciously creating their own reality without
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: knowing it. So when something happens in the world, then
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: you look through the Meg window and then you give
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: it meaning and value and you label it just like
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Craig does. So you might look at something and go
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: that's fucking hilarious, and I look at it and I go, well,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: that's highly offensive. Yeah, don't call me a cunt, right, yeah,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: So when I say that.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: In America, that word lands differently here.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you one d So when I say
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: that word, you know, even now, there's a percentage of
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: people that when I wish you wouldn't say that word
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Craig and I get it, and that's the reason I
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: said it. But there are ninety seven one of my
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: listeners who are like, ah, HAPs, he's a fucking idiot,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: because it ain't about like you think about four letters
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: put together in a certain order. It doesn't mean anything
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: until we say it means something.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Until we give it that meaning, right.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: And there will be other people listening to you talk about,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the gender pay gap and be on the
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: edge of their seat. And by the way, I truly
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: think it is a great conversation and is a great cause,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: and it's nest all that, right, So that's truly what
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: I think. But there'll be I would imagine a few dinosaurs,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: not that many on my listenership, I wouldn't think, but
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: there will be people who would kind of roll their
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: eyes at your kind of mission, right, And you know,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: because that's and there are people who like I've got
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: people that send me messages regularly saying I've listened to
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: every show you've ever done, and I'm like, you need
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: a life.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: I love you, get a hobby on thousands of apps
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well we're into sixteen no. By the way,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I love those people and I appreciate it. But and
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: then there are other people who will listen to ten
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: minutes and go he's a fucking idiot and then move
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: on to Joe Rogan and I get it. I get it. Yeah, right,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: But this doesn't matter.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Either because it's yeah, because because you don't need all
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: of them.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: You see your people, right, But we don't have to
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: agree or align. We just need to be respectful and
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: understand other people, Like I don't need to agree with
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: you to have a great conversation. I do agree with you,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: by the way, but I've had lots of conversations with
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: people that you know, like away from the podcast, we
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: probably wouldn't be besties. But it's not that they're good
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: or bad people. It's just like, yeah, I don't I'm
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: not really fascinated with that or you, or I don't
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: really align with that ideology or that, and that's that's okay.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Like in this we don't all need And this is
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: the thing that we're seeing so much now with the
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: echo chambers of belief and ideology. I know where everyone
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: thinks that like if you don't agree with me on this, this,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: and this, well everyone in the world who doesn't agree
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: with me is wrong. I'm like, fuck, there's so much
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: the older that I get and I know this sounds cliche, Yeah,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: the more I realize how little I know, and I'm
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: not saying that with false humility, it's you actually go, ah,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's like I grew up in a
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: religious paradigm, right, so I knew there was a God,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: and now I go, I don't know. Maybe there is.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know, though, because if I knew, then I'd
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: have knowledge, which makes faith redundant. So even though it's
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable for me to go, I don't know that's the truth.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: You know, Well, it's like, look because also the older
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: we get, the more experiences we've lived through, the more
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: people we've met who've had different experiences, So the more
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: knowledge we have in a way to help like understand
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: that there's still so much there's so many millions of
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: people we haven't met yet, So how much knowledge out
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: there exists that we don't even know about? Do you
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? And to your point earlier around
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: the echo chamber, it is something that really worries me.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And I think about this too, obviously with the American
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: election loom, you know, and maybe this is the journalist
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: in me. I don't know, Like I really want to understand.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: I have a certain opinion about what I think is
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: most helpful for a majority of folks post is election. Equally,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: you know, I grew up, I guess middle class. I
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: don't know what it's like to be in middle America
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: raising two point two kids with a Golden Retriever on
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: one income. I don't know what it's like to be
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: long term unemployed, not to have health care, and to
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: feel like there's no one out there looking out for me.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Like and maybe if I live that experience, maybe I
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: would have different political views, and I can't like, I
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: can't fault people who have that experience. I don't agree
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: with certain opinions. But also I haven't lived their life.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: I'm not in their shoes. I can take my kid
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: to the doctor, I can put food on the table.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: So my life is very different, do you know what
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: I mean? And I have the capacity and the privilege
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: to vote a certain way because so many of my
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: from a Maslow's hierarchy of needs perspective, so many of
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: my needs, I know, are relatively met. And I have
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: a to go back to Australia at any point with Medicare,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: which I think again gives me a whole different perspective.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: You know why they're as Americans he who don't take
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: their kids to the doctor because they think they'll go bankrupt.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: So I think it just you know, and I think
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: also for people who are listening who've ever had a
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: toxic boss, or a toxic relationship or any of those things.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: When I've dealt with people like that, something that's helped
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: me is to try and think, like, wow, I wonder
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: what they must have been through to feel the need
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: to treat me like that right, Like, if that's how
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: you treat people, what has happened to you? Like, do
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean? So sometimes that's a helpful
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: framing that I've found well, and.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: I think, like from a very far away perspective, It's
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: like when you see and this is not probo anti anyone,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: This is just me observing human behavior and psychology and
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: sociology I'm fascinated with. And it doesn't just happen in America,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: but I'm fascinated when you see two adults who are
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: going to be leading a fucking countryally one of them
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: and what they're doing in public is basically insulting the
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: other person and going, oh, he's this or she, And
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: so what we see is all of these people who
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: are allegedly some of the most intelligent leaders who are
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: going to steer our country to the next whatever, basically
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: insult trying to insult their way to a victory. I'm like,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: do you not understand how stupid you look, how juvenile
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: this is, how how like unaware this is that this
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: is your strategy is to insult people to the point
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: where you think that that will sway public opinion that
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: now you will have some kind of electoral advantage or
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: to me, it's just the epitome of fucking ignorance and
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: stupidity that oh god.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: We wouldn't accept that from preschool kids, Like iflies were
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: doing that, they'd get a detention.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean exactly? I want to
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: take a left turn. Before you and I chatted missus vulnerability,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: he said, Oh, I went and saw my therapist today. Yeah,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: and I want to talk about that. We've had lots
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: of therapists on here and Tiffu works with me, sees
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: doctor Bill, her therapist, and we talk all the time
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: about this stuff. So how long have you been seeing
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: a therapist for? Ah?
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: So, I reckon. I started getting therapy maybe fifteen years ago.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: My parents got divorced when I was in my mid twenties,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: so that's I think the first time I went to
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: see a therapist, and then basically on and off since then,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: pretty when I started my own business. I've been very consistent.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: I've always been working with at least one therapist and
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: or coach and or whatever at the same time. But
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: therapy therapy, I've kind of I fell off the wagon
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: for maybe two or three years, but I've again, I've
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: had coaches, I still have, I still work with multiple coaches,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: but therapy therapy it kind of felt right. So I've
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: actually still wanted to see a guy in New York
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: who was referred to me by a dear friend of
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: mine and she had a very traumatic experience and she
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: actually did a hypnosis therapy session with him and she
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: got attacked when she was overseas and she said it
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: it totally worked wonders for her, and so I am
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: very I fortunately have not had a traumatic experience, but
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: there's just a couple of things that I've been like
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: I think I need. I felt a few blockers Craig
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: in terms of like the business and my merely my mindset.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: I'm the I'm the problem. It's me, to quote Taylor's
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: with so so I was like, I'm going to take
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: her a referral, and you know what, I emailed him
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: two years ago and it's taken me this long to
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: kind of I don't know, for some reason, I was
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: like a bit scared or just like whatever, I wasn't
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: ready and then yeah, I had a session with him today.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: I just like I feel like I have rose colored
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: glasses on, Like I feel it was a really powerful,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: really powerful session.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: What makes a good therapist? Do you reckon?
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: It's a good question because I've had a bad therapist
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: as well. I had I had a therapist once when
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: I was when I was a correspondent, I had a
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: therapist and she was like, do you think you could
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: get me a job on TV? And I was like,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: this feels inappropriate? She was actually, this wasn't Yeah, this
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: is going back a long time. So what would I
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: say makes a good therapist? I think a referral is
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: always nice because then you're kind of not going in
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: totally blind in terms of the quality control. For me,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I think it's someone who has experienced with a specific
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: situation that you want handled. So whether it's couple's therapy,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: whether it's in a child work, whether it's business whatever.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: And then just someone who it's an energetic match. It
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: just feels like they're a good listener to me. I'm
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: looking for a balance between space for me to unpack
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: stuff on my own as well as a bit of
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: practical strategy tangible. So I kind of want a bit
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: of both. I want a bit of handholding and a
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: bit of this is what you're gonna do? Next. Some
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: people just want talk or some people just want tactics.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: It's interesting. We do a lot of executive coaching at
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: my company and we probably straddle the two, I would say,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: but for me, I'm looking of the balance of both.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Interesting thing about therapy and you know anything really nutrition
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: exercise is that obviously different things work for different people. Right.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: It's so I can get five ladies who want to,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: for example, you know, be fit, e, Lena stronger, you know,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: more must whatever, or five dudes or you know, it
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter, smattering of everyone, it doesn't matter. But even
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: if they've got the same goals, we can't take the
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: same journey because they don't have the same body. They
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: don't have the same personality, they don't have the same
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: physiological responses. Their body doesn't interact with that stimulus the
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: same as the next person. And so it's like therapy
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: is the same. Like you might go and see old
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: mate and go, oh, he's a fucking idiot, and I
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: go there and I go, she's brilliant, she's amazing, Right
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: there was I've spoken about this too much. But there's
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: a lady called Abigail Schreyer who wrote a book called
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: called bad therapy, and she was talking about you would
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: like this. She was talking about the fact that for
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: some people, talk therapy is exactly what they need and
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: it's it's very no pun intended therapeutic and valuable, but
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: for others it's traumatizing. So when you know, you go
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: there and you sit down every Tuesday at three and
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: you open the door on the trauma that happened seven
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: years ago once a week, and then the person's takes
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: them three days to get back to status quo because
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: they take all that emotional on psychological trauma out the
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: door with them again. So I loved Basically she was saying,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: there is no which is no revelation, but there's no
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: one size that fits all. And it's trying to understand
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: whether or not it's a psychological diet or a physical
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: diet or you know, it's like trying to what will
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: work optimally for Meggie versus Craig versus John versus Sally.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: And it's even in you think about this, even in Korea,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: like you don't have a lot of certainty and predictability
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: because you work for you, so you don't know next
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: year how much money you're going to make. But most
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: people or do kind of you know, because they've got
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: a job and they've been with the company for nine years.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: They know next year, I'm going to earn one hundred
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: and thirty grand give or take, unless I get the sack,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: you know. Whereas with you, you are creative and you
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: are solving problems, and you are seeing things that need
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: to be addressed, and you're you're basically building stuff. Whereas
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: for a lot of people that would not work for
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: their personality or their psychology.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Well, so I want to challenge you on that because
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: I actually think I think a lot of us fall
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: into this trap of I'm going to earn one hundred
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: and thirty K next year, So why would I talk
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: to anyone else in my industry? Why would I upscale?
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Why would I have the Why would I even think
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: about knowing how to build absite, how to build a website?
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Why would I even bother? But I actually, I actually
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: and maybe it's because I've been laid off so I've
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: lived through this experience in the past. I just think
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: you always need a plan. B. Yeah, I think that's
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: really important because if you've even if you've worked for
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: the government for forty years, you could get made redundant,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: or by the way, you could be so miserable in
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: your job that it is the best thing for your
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: health to leave that company, right Or you may have
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: a boss that's so toxic that it's just not tenable,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: so you may need like mentally, physically, whatever, it may
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: be better for your emotional state if you do leave
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: and if you could leave. So one of the things
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: that we talk a lot about at Petsalco, with our
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: community and with our executive coaching is like building firstly
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: in your mind the possibility that there are plan bis
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: and there are options out there for you. That's the
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: first thing to know that it is possible, even if
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: you've been accountant for thirty years, even if you've been
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: in marketing for six years, there's other options, because I
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: think otherwise we get stuck, and to our conversation before
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: we got an air, like when we get stuck and
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: we get stayed, and we get comfortable and like, well,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: if I leave, maybe I only make seventy K and
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: I've got a mortgage, and I actually think, to me,
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: that's a dangerous place to be because then I think
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: it's like this, this fear of leaving one hundred and
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: thirty k that maybe some people stay in situations work
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: wise are making them sick or that are not serving them,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: and in fact you might leave and make two hundred
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: and sixty. Right, It's possible, maybe not straight away but eventually.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, I think I agree with you, Like I
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: divide what you're saying, I agree with but also there
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: are people that for them to be able to get
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: themselves out of what they're in right now because of
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: their practical is difficult. But yeah, I agree with you,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: and I also like, not even if you're ending a
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: fucking million dollars a year, but if you hate it,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: if it's toxic, if it's killing me, well it's a
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: terrible job. So you know how they talk about work
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: life balance, I talk about work impact. I go because
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: work life balance has gone. Yeah, yeah, like work life
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: balance as well. It's kind of if you work this
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: many hours and you don't work this many hours, then
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: you've got this equilibrium, this numerical kind of equation and
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: this much work, this much not work. Okay, you've got balance. No,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: that's complete dogshit because it could work twenty hours a week,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: which is not many. But if every hour is fucking horrible.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: That is really bad for your physical, mental, and emotional health. Conversely,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: someone like you or me, probably there's not many weeks
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: where I wouldn't do it at least sixty hours of something,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: at least in the form of work. Because but because
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: I love what I do, I rarely get stressed, I
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: rarely get anxious. I sleep great, I eat great, I
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: work out every day, I have good social life, I
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: have friends. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: do drugs. And I'm not saying that sound good, but
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: I work a lot. But in the middle of all
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: of that, working a lot for me and which is
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: not a recommendation, but for me it works. So it's
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out not only what will I do
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: and how much of it will I do, but what
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: is the emotional and psychological consequence of that one hundred and.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: I think there's a hard question. And so for people
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: listening or like, I really throw us a batter in
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: the works there, like I think we are like, and
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I do want to challenge everyone to think today, like,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: does your work bring you joy? Now? It doesn't have
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: to be the perfect job. And even as entrepreneurs Craig
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: running our own business. There's days where I'm like, jeez,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: I love a regular paycheck, that'd be nice. But equally,
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: you know, I do a four day week. My entire
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: team we only do a four day week. And that's
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: intentional because I want I want us to live like
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: I want us to be, to be working to live,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: not the other way around. Right for me, that's important
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: from a values perspective, and I think one thing that's
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: helpful to think about and even if you know, thinking
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: about Okay, so we're here today, at some point we're
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: going to die. I was born in nineteen eighty four.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: At some point I'm going to die. Let's call it
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: twenty eighty four whatever, right, Like let's say I lived
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: told one hundred as in when I'm buried or created,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: TBD on that. But if there's a gravestone, you'll have
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four to twenty eighty four, and there's a dash, right,
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: there's a dash between those two years. And to me,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: I really for framings to think about, like what do
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: you want that dash for your life? What what did
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: that stand for? Like what do you want to be
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: known for? Because it's not about when you were born.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: It's not about when you do. It's not about the awards,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: it's not about the bank balance. Who cares when you diet? Done?
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: But what is that dash? What does that represent? What
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: was the essence of how you lived and who you
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: were when you lived? Like to me, if you can
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: be like I can on heart, like I feel like
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: I'm living in alignment with what I would want that
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: dash to be, then that's great because you can You
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: can get that impact or that that values alignment from
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: community work or through your family or volunteering, or it
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: doesn't have to be through your work. But sometimes your
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: work is so misaligned from how you want to be remembered.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: That's when I think there's a disconnect and there's some
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: serious questions that folks need to ask.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think more broadly one hundred percent agree
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: with you, But more broadly, not only does our work
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: not align with our values, but neither does our lifestyle.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Neither do our habits, neither do our relationships, neither does
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: our behavior with food. Right right, this is you know,
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: it's like, do you want to live in alignment? Well? Cool,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: identify your values and your beliefs and your standards, and
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: then build an existence around those things, which won't be
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: easy or painless or quick, by the way, but once
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: you could, you know. I mean that for me, the
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: value of values, no pun intended, is that they're basically
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: our internal sat nav. It's like, this is your guidance system. Yes,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: I've told this story a few times, Meggie, but we had.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: You know, we're sponsored, We're on the Nova network, Shout
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: out to Nova. And more than a few times I've
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: been offered really good sponsorships. One massive sponsorship that I
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: had to say no to because I couldn't. I couldn't
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: sell that product that doesn't it would be. One of
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: them was Booze. And like I've said a few times
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: on the show, I'm not against booze. I'm against alcoholism
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: and people abusing booze because I work with people who
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: suffer from addiction issues, amongst other things. And so for
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: me to be the guy that works with that x
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: and alcoholics, and me the guy that's never had alcohol
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: in his life, to then be selling Booze on his program,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: it was very It wasn't a comfortable decision because the
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: money would be fun, but it was a very easy
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: decision because you know that doesn't and that's you know,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: I think when then we extrapolate that out to you know,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: like when I just say to someone do you want
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: to be fit, healthy, functional, and you know, physically operational
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: as well as everyone goes yes, and then say, all right,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: are you currently self sabotaging that goal? And the answer
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: is yes, yes. You know, it's like, what's my typical
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: behavior and does that support who and how I want
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: to be or not? All right, we want to wind up,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: but I want to ask you one or two questions,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: if that's all right, Yeah, so quick. One one of
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: the things that you talk about, I think, if I
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: got my research right in your corporate stuff is imposter syndrome.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Do you have you? I'm sure you have
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: at times felt like an impost stuff. Are you through
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: that or does that still the.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, what a great question. A thousand Well
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: I have a thousand percent felt like an impost.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Have you I still do? I still think this is
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: fucking ridiculous that I get to talk to you on
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: the other side of the world, no over paying me
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: to do this, and I'm just a dumb fuck from
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: the country, And I know all that sounds but I do.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm aware of it. Yeah, but yeah, like
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I coexist with my impost syndrome.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what a great way, a great way
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: of putting it. It's about I think you want to well,
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: the coexisting and for me, it's also quietening the voice
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: slash channeling that voice to propel me forward because and
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: they reckon, like seventy percent ish of the population experiences
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: imposter syndrome. And by the way, we're in good company
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: like Tom Hanks, my Angelou, Michelle Obama, Emma Watson, lots
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: of lots of really high profile people talk about feeling
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: like an impost as well. So we're not alone that
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: the two of us and any folks listening who feel
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: the same. Yeah. And actually, to be honest, a part
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: of what we talked about tangentially today in my therapy
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: session was imposter syndrome. And one of the things that
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: we work with corporate workshops on is around a strategy
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: to like, okay, as and when we've identified yes, we're
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: experiencing that, cool, do we let it cripple us? Or
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: is there actually a three step process that we can
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: actually follow to navigate through that and use it actually
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: as a tool rather than a hindred So yeah, shout
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: out to anyone else who feels you know, I really
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: appreciate you sharing that, Craig, because I think actually, if
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: we were more vulnerable and honest with our colleagues, with
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: our coworkers, we would also give them permission to share
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: that with us. Because sometimes I thought I was the
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: only one. Like when I started on a really high
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: profile show as a reporter, I thought like I didn't
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: deserve to be there. I was like, why have they
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: posted me? What is happening? And my boss took me
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: aside and he's like, what's going on? You're weird? And
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: I was like, I just don't know why you hired me.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm here. And he's like, oh,
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: you're experiencing imposter syndrome and I was like what. I
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: didn't even know what it was. And he shared with
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: me that he's been feeling like that for the last
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: thirty five years, which kind of gave me comfort because
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: I was like, ah, Okay, so I'm not that weird. Okay,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: that's good. He's been through it. Maybe that gave me
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: permission to know that I wasn't the weirdest person in
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: the room, you know.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think, yeah, I agree with you. By
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: the way, I think it's closer to one hundred percent.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, I admit it.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: You're quite right.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, for me self, doubt, insecurity, overthinking,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: fear of everything. You know, it's like it's normal. But yeah,
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: the more that, the funny thing is, on this show
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: and any forum where you have an audience, the more
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: vulnerable you are in an intelligent way. But I talk
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: to people about it, you know, because I was most
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: morbidly Id's kid. I wasn't a great student. I wasn't
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: a great athlete. I wasn't I was so fucking mediocre
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: at everything, right, But it's but your mediocrity or you
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: you know, well, Craig, you don't have awesome genetics. Craig,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: you're not a genius. Craig. You can't run fast, or
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: dance or sing right, Craig. Cool? Okay, Well, with all
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: that in mind, what can I do? Or Can I
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: work hard? Yet? Can I make decisions? Can I learn?
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: Can I develop new skills? Can I build resilience? Can
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I build understanding and awareness? Can I ask good questions?
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Can I take risks. Can I be brave all of that? Right,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: there's so many things that are totally optional that are
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: life shaping and you shaping, you know, and the whole
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: fucking self sabotage, which intersects with imposter syndrome where you're
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: overthinking and your self doubt and your frustration and your
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: avoidance and your like that then starts to create this
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: self fulfilling prophecy of bad outcomes. You know, we're doing
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: it to ourselves. But you know, like, yeah, I think
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: that that you've I love that you've created your own thing,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: you know. I love that you've kind of built something
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: from nothing in a good way. You know, you've recognized
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: a need. And so there's this intersection of your creativity
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: and your passion and empathy to help people but also
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: navigate a legitimate problem and do something about it. It's amazing.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate you saying that, Craig, and it's interesting
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: hearing you speak. I heard I forget who it was.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: I heard someone say once that entrepreneurs often create in
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: the world what they needed, and I wonder if you've
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: created what you needed, what younger you needed, and same
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: for I've created what younger Meggie needed in PEP talk her.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: And you know, the speaking that I do in the
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: workshops that we run and the executive coaching that we
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: do is probably what I needed five to ten years
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: ago or maybe even still today. And actually for everyone
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: listening as well, I think the bad experience is the
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: negative things people told you, that the stories that are
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: on repeat in your head that maybe are not serving you.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Actually could that be a fuel to motivate you, to
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: drive you forward. Is there a way that actually you
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: could create something or help support someone else. Maybe you
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: don't need to start a business. Maybe just actually your
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: experience of what you went through sharing or coaching or
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: counseling someone who's had something similar, Maybe that's your gift
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: to be able to pay it forward to someone else
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: such that they don't have to have as negative experience
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: as what you did.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: I think our stories what make us unique, you know,
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: and so often I don't think that we're encouraged to
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: share them. We're sort of like, oh, you gotta put
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: this perfect face on Instagram or LinkedIn and like everything
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: cunkyed orient it's actually not for everyone. And in sharing
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: those things, I think in spaces where you feel safe
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: and trusted and supported. There's power in that because you
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: may give a voice to someone else right, or you
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: may actually be sharing something that someone else needs to hear,
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: which is I think why you and I both love
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: stories so much and the sharing of knowledge.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Well, the thing is that when you're telling a story, too,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: especially if it's your story and it's real, you're building
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: emotional connection with people, whereas just data information statistics don't
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: tend to resonate with people the same. So if you
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: can be a bit funny, a bit interesting, if you
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: can be a storyteller, you're building connection with people, and
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: then once you've got that connection, then you can kind
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: of see where you want to go from there. But also,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: you know when people hear about you figuring it out
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: as you go and you being treated poorly and you
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: thinking Okay, I'm going to do something, and then you're
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: taking action, then you're building something, and then you being brave.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: These are not theories or constructs. This is literally your journey,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: so DMA no, but it's your journey and that inspires people.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: It's like, I think that's the thing, and that's why
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: I try to with these albeit somewhat you know, lumpy
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: bumpy change in direction conversations is to not be too strategic.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Let's not have the big fucking question seven question face
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: fuck all that, you know. I did my first six
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: hundred episodes of this show losing money, no sponsors, going backwards,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: costing me. But I loved every fucking moment of it
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: because I was learning and understanding podcasting versus radio where
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: I came from, and and and understanding you know, not
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: only how to do it, but also how to like,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: what's the science of podcasting, what's the commercial roadmap for podcasting?
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: And how do we you know. But at the same time,
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: I was meeting people like I'm never going to meet
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: you except for this, and so I get an hour
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: with you, which I'm very grateful for. And I'm talking
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: to this really smart person, and I'm learning and it's
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: kind of you know, at the same time, I'm having
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: a good experience. I'm getting taught and trained and told
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: by some of the smartest people in the world on
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: a daily basis, and I get paid for it. Now,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: it's fucking ridiculous. It's a scam.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Well well, and also, well, you've created that, right because
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: you followed your curiosity and you know, you're you're the
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: problem that you had that you saw a way to
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: solve it, you know what interests you. And I think
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: that's coming full circle to our conversation earlier where we
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: talked about how ridiculous it is that you're supposed to
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: choose your life direction at you know, sixteen or seventeen
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: or eighteen. Like look at us. It's like we're like
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: very much not teenagers anymore, sadly, but like we're still
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: figuring it out. I heard someone once say everything is
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: figure outable, and I think that's so true. Like, you know,
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: the President of America, the Prime Minister of Australia, the
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: city of some fancy bank, they don't know what they're
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: doing either. They also did not get a manual. Have
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: they learned stuff? Yes? Do they google stuff daily? Yes?
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Do they ask the word for advice? Also yes? And
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: so like there's no one out there who's like the
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: oracle who's got it all sorted. Actually, everyone's reading and
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: learning and listening and learning from each other. And I
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: think the sooner that I wish that I'd figure that
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: out earlier, I think I thought that people ahead of
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: me had some bible that was like taught them what
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: to do next. And now that I realized that, actually,
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: it's also not the destination that's important. Yes, we have goals,
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Yes we have revenue goals. Yes we want to help
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: one hundred thousand people in two years, all these sorts
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: of things. Yes, great, great, great, yes, but like who cares? Like, actually,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: the journey and this conversation and my meetings earlier today
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: and you know, my team and coaching fascinating women and
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: supporting them through highs and like that's actually the joy.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: And I think figuring out that the journey is the joy.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: It's not about the destination, because the destination will change.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: Like I'm not a journalist anymore. I'm also not a lawyer,
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: which I thought I would be at fifteen. Like it's
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: the process, Like that's the joy for me.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: And you're always always going to be in the journey
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: or the journey and the process. And it's about who
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: you become. Like it's not that you know, it's when
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: you take the narrow path. That's when you climb the mountain,
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: that's when you take the stairs. It's it's when you
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: do the stuff that most people won't do that you
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: become that you build competence and understanding and strength and
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: awareness and skill. And then now you know, it's like
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: you go into the gym and you lift, you do
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: a hard thing. You work against resistance to literally become strong.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: So how do you become strong? You literally work against
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: physical resistance and the byproduct is adaptation, and so too
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: mentally emotionally, you know, sociologically, you push against you work
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: against the hard shit. You do what's required, and yes,
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: you create practical measures outcomes, which is beautiful, but also
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: you're becoming fucking you two point zero in the middle
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: of that, you know.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and I think that's the set physically with
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: the stuff that you're doing. You know, like if you
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: want to get a big muscle, you got to do
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: these ones. A week is not enough. But if you
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: do it consistently, repetaibly, all of a sudden you got
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: big bysets. And the stuff that we do, which is
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: a lot about mindset and like negotiation tactics and reframing
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: how you show up at work and that kind of stuff.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: It's repetition, right, it's a practice, and you don't I
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: can't give you a pill and fix it. Sorry, It's
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: a consistent practice. It's surrounding yourself with people. It's having
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: the tactics, it's reframing when you go off track, you know,
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: it's finding the things to be grateful for so that
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: again you can come back to enjoying and loving the
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: journey and falling in love with that, so that the destination, yes,
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: you want to have it in mind. You want to
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: be clear where are we going, but as and when
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: that changes, as and when you miss it, as and
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: when you surpass it. That's superfluous because the process itself
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: was the priority.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: There's another topic that we could do another day, but
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: it's called destination disappointment, Meggie, and it's when you get
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: to where you wanted to go, you get there and
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: then you're like, oh this, I'm on the wrong mountain. Fuck,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: it's that mountain over there, you know. Because we think
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: that when we get there wherever there is, that that's
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: going to equate to some kind of internal nirvana, joy, calm, euphoria.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: And we get there, we're like, ah, oh hey, we're
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: going to wind out, but thank you so much. How
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: do people connect with you, follow you, find you, support you?
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: How do they do that?
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: What a treat chatting with you Craig. Yeah, listen, I'm
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: on LinkedIn. Meggie Palmer, em Mebgie, So say hi. Let
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: me know that you're listening to this amazing podcast, and
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: that's how you found me. I love staying touch. Pep
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: talk her hr at the end. We're on Instagram and
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: our website is pep talker dot com. If folks need
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: support with salary negotiations, with supporting their learning and development
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: teams at work, or cannot speaking, please reach out. We'd
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: love to support you. But I'm just I'm just a
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: lighted that you're having these conversations. I'm looking forward to
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: Destination Disappointment the next episode. That sounds like a LinkedIn
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: post to me, Craig.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: It does, it does. Let's let's do that. Hey, we'll
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: say goodbye Affair. But for the moment, I appreciate you
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: so much and thanks for staying up to do this.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: You're the best.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Talk to you.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: Scene