Latest / The Payments Shed / Ep. 27 - Turning Payment Chaos into Clarity: How Unetix Is Building the 24/7 Chief Payments Officer

Transcript

Ep. 27 - Turning Payment Chaos into Clarity: How Unetix Is Building the 24/7 Chief Payments Officer · The Payments Shed

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Payment Shed Podcast, the weekly podcast that
• 0:03
  dives into the big topics, trends and people shaping the
• 0:06
  world's of payments, fintech and business leadership with your
• 0:10
  two Co hosts, myself, Grant Evans and Justin Hanna.
• 0:13
  Welcome to another episode of the Payment Shed Podcast.
• 0:16
  Today we are joined by Nick Dobson, Co founder and CEO of
• 0:19
  Unitex. Nick, welcome to the Payment
• 0:21
  Shed. Please introduce yourself.
• 0:23
  Tell us a little bit about what you've done in payments and
• 0:26
  fintech over the last few years and what you're doing with
• 0:28
  Unitex at the moment. OK.
• 0:29
  Thank you. Well, yeah, great to be here.
• 0:31
  Thanks, guys. Wow.
• 0:32
  Where would you begin? So I think I'm coming up close
• 0:35
  to 25 years in payments. Yeah.
• 0:39
  Yeah, free bus pass. I don't know if they still give
• 0:43
  those anymore, do they? But yeah, so it started off
• 0:46
  actually weirdly enough, as as more techie in there believe and
• 0:50
  small software outfit that started developing
• 0:54
  authorisation, credit card authorisation software back in
• 0:56
  the days when you used to have to plug it into a yeah, a phone
• 0:59
  line or PSDN line. I have a couple of acquisitions
• 1:03
  actually. That's what is MasterCard
• 1:05
  payment gateway now. So seen quite a lot.
• 1:08
  So from the start of chip and PIN a member of yeah, Bing in
• 1:14
  deployments for that. So the first version of PCI,
• 1:17
  how's that evolved first versions of 3D Secure.
• 1:20
  Yeah. So, yeah, been through and kind
• 1:22
  of done it a lot, a lot more recently been in, yeah, more of
• 1:26
  leadership roles around commercial and and product
• 1:29
  focused on kind of that aggregation of yeah, gateway and
• 1:32
  acquiring into a single solution.
• 1:35
  And that's really kind of lead us to, to kind of where we are
• 1:37
  with with Unitex. So yeah, Unitex is a payments
• 1:42
  intelligence platform. What does that mean?
• 1:46
  It's a view of where we're helping merchants really get a
• 1:49
  better understanding of the data that exists within that
• 1:52
  transactional life cycle, bringing it all together into a,
• 1:56
  yeah, a single source, and then helping them make better
• 1:59
  decisions around their business and the growth, but also helping
• 2:02
  them look into what does that mean for me in the future.
• 2:05
  So starting to change the dialogue.
• 2:06
  Yeah, looking backwards, helping them start to look forwards.
• 2:10
  And I guess from the merchant and and platform side, you know,
• 2:14
  most companies are still going through this really manual
• 2:17
  reconciliation process and that's a real pain point for
• 2:20
  them. So what was the kind of spark
• 2:22
  for you guys for Unitex where you're like, this is something
• 2:25
  we just have to solve? Like what was that moment where
• 2:27
  you're like, we're going to do this?
• 2:28
  I think there was a there, there wasn't a single point.
• 2:30
  And I think there probably has been dozens of conversations
• 2:33
  over the last decade where, you know, you sit down with someone
• 2:36
  and they really struggle with certain components of that life
• 2:40
  cycle. For me, if I look at it actually
• 2:43
  personally, there was a conversation I had probably
• 2:45
  about 12 months ago with the CEO of an ecom business.
• 2:48
  And, you know, they just deployed that new gateway,
• 2:51
  multiple new acquirers, quite a complex deployment.
• 2:54
  And I said, yeah, we're just kind of having to catch up over
• 2:57
  over lunch and said, well, what would you do again, you know,
• 3:00
  what's the learnings from that? And he said, Nick, I wish we had
• 3:02
  more experience and knowledge when we did it.
• 3:05
  You know, there's so much that we've learned along the way that
• 3:07
  I know other people have already done.
• 3:11
  How can we capture that? And he said, and I really wish I
• 3:13
  had a payment specialist in the business that knew all of this
• 3:17
  and can then help me go through. And we've kind of had to fumble
• 3:20
  around and make those mistakes over the last year in order to
• 3:23
  get where we are successful project in the end.
• 3:25
  But I think that's one of those learnings where you could get on
• 3:27
  for that. And I think there's been so many
• 3:29
  over the years, but that for me was the one and I know with the
• 3:34
  with the Co founding team is yeah, we've we've had those as
• 3:37
  well. They've had numerous
• 3:38
  conversations with customers where they've just really
• 3:40
  struggled to understand what's happening within their business.
• 3:42
  And it is like a foreign language that most of these guys
• 3:45
  are ecom specialists. They're not payment specialists
• 3:48
  like you. We know.
• 3:50
  Yeah, Stripes language is completely different to Adyen to
• 3:53
  be different to well, pay. So they don't really all fit
• 3:56
  together. And it's like, OK, well, someone
• 3:57
  calls something different, they've got a different format,
• 3:59
  it's delivered in a different way.
• 4:01
  How do you, you know, first of all, how do you rationalize
• 4:03
  that? And then how do you use that to
• 4:05
  to actually make a Better Business decision?
• 4:08
  It's interesting calling out different acquirers as well
• 4:10
  because we're in this moment in time, right, where more
• 4:13
  merchants than ever have multiple acquirer relationships.
• 4:17
  So that's a really interesting point that you make around the
• 4:19
  different ways that data is presented and that reliance on.
• 4:22
  I have to go here to find that data for that acquire and that,
• 4:25
  you know, put it all in one place and make it look the same
• 4:27
  for finance teams, for account management teams, whatever it
• 4:31
  might be. Decline reasons is a prime
• 4:33
  example of that right? Because every single acquirer
• 4:35
  will show decline reasons is in different way with from the the
• 4:38
  raw files. Then the way that a gateway will
• 4:40
  then consume that data is different to the way that they
• 4:42
  were then presented to merchants.
• 4:43
  It just make it really, really confusing for merchants who want
• 4:46
  to try and understand the payments.
• 4:49
  Yeah, and then you add another one in and it completely changes
• 4:51
  it for you. Or, as we all know, having spent
• 4:54
  quite a lot of time inquiry, someone changes something and
• 4:57
  doesn't tell. You overnight.
• 4:58
  So then, yeah, then completely changes and breaks that model.
• 5:02
  So the whole idea here is to build a platform that that, that
• 5:05
  that takes that pain away, but not just from a data
• 5:08
  perspective. And you know, I know you
• 5:10
  mentioned reconciliation there, to be honest, that's so far down
• 5:13
  the chain. I mean, reconciliation is have I
• 5:15
  got my money in my bank, Connie? Yes, No.
• 5:18
  Does that matter? Actually, you know, there's so
• 5:20
  much more in the in that transactional journey that you
• 5:23
  can influence, we understand to make better decisions with the
• 5:26
  business. You know, decline rates is one,
• 5:29
  yeah. Fraud rates, yeah.
• 5:31
  Chargebacks, yeah. How do I perform as a, you know,
• 5:34
  with certain issuers and certain bins?
• 5:37
  So they're all the kinds of questions that, you know, we're
• 5:39
  helping to actually, you know, answer for merchants.
• 5:41
  Now we're starting to go, well, how do I grow my business?
• 5:44
  Yeah. What's the next market I can
• 5:46
  enter? What?
• 5:47
  What actually is good? Yeah.
• 5:50
  And am I good? And am I, am I doing it the
• 5:52
  right way? Even down to yeah.
• 5:54
  Do I have a certain issue with certain industries or certain?
• 5:58
  Yeah, markets where fraud is killing my return on investment.
• 6:02
  I've got 100 grand here. Where do I spend it on my next
• 6:05
  marketing budget? Do you think the industry then
• 6:07
  has has focused for so long on the front end of payments as
• 6:12
  opposed to really concentrating on the back end kind of
• 6:15
  intelligence around it? Spawn yeah, I completely agree
• 6:19
  with that. Is it's kind of the shiny kind
• 6:22
  of front end of it all. And everyone's everyone's been
• 6:24
  so focused on conversion and making the payment happen.
• 6:28
  But actually there's so much leaking out the back end and
• 6:31
  being lost. And, and you're right that
• 6:34
  looking at it from a data perspective, I think people have
• 6:37
  been very, you know, black and white, whereas now we can look
• 6:39
  at it from actually intelligence and what does intelligence mean?
• 6:43
  You know, intelligence is helping me make a better
• 6:45
  decision rather than, you know, be reactive to something that
• 6:48
  I've seen, you know, two weeks ago.
• 6:51
  Can you give some examples of like manual processes and data
• 6:54
  fragmentation that you've seen in the market?
• 6:58
  Great question and yeah, there's one that springs to mind about
• 7:00
  6-7 years ago. Where, yeah, working with a
• 7:03
  customer and you, you kind of get into the business, you
• 7:06
  understand, they're doing manual projects.
• 7:08
  Every store was writing down what they did and sending it
• 7:11
  into head office. They were bringing it together
• 7:13
  into a centralized view. And it's not like, hang on a
• 7:16
  second, finance was spending four days just adding
• 7:19
  spreadsheets together. OK, We've moved well beyond that
• 7:23
  now, but that just shows you how antiquated some of this is.
• 7:28
  Obviously, look, we've been doing lots of research and
• 7:30
  finding out about sort of things at the moment and nine in 10,
• 7:34
  you know, merchants and businesses out there struggle
• 7:36
  with payment operations. So there's a real issue of yeah,
• 7:40
  is that reconciling? Is that actually understanding
• 7:43
  what's going on with business? Is that, you know, knowing,
• 7:46
  yeah, fraud and chargebacks and where I've got a problem and
• 7:49
  what's driving that rather than OK, well, yes, I've got a
• 7:53
  problem and I've just lost that, How do I see that coming?
• 7:56
  What do I do in order to change that, and how do I adapt to make
• 8:00
  it all Yeah? It's it's like pause in ECOM as
• 8:03
  well, right? We're still in a position where
• 8:05
  for me in 2025, every single acquirer should have their pause
• 8:09
  and their ECOM offering synced into one reporting tool.
• 8:12
  But it's just not the reality in the market.
• 8:14
  And you, like you say, we've all been in payments for far too
• 8:17
  long, but to still be sat here now saying how is that not just
• 8:20
  and a lot of other things have even now and become norms, but
• 8:24
  there's still this disparity in why?
• 8:26
  Can't PSPS fix it? Why can't merchants fix it
• 8:29
  internally? And they can and they tried.
• 8:31
  I mean, look, we, we're working with a range of different
• 8:35
  businesses at the moment now from, yeah, real small ones to
• 8:38
  ones that probably, yeah, you know, household global names.
• 8:40
  And you think, OK, some of them are more advanced than not, but
• 8:43
  the challenges they've got are all very similar as first of
• 8:46
  all, it's different language, different way of working.
• 8:49
  Secondly, it's that massive investment.
• 8:51
  I mean, we know guys who've spent significant 6 figure sums,
• 8:54
  if not 7 figure building platforms.
• 8:57
  You're running your own BI platforms in house internally
• 9:01
  and then you need to have the knowledge wrapped around it to
• 9:04
  make it all work. And that's just those guys.
• 9:07
  Imagine if you're just starting out and you don't have that
• 9:10
  experience and, and things like that as well.
• 9:12
  So that's where I think it really kind of comes into it is,
• 9:15
  you know, it's, yes, you can do it yourself, but why would you?
• 9:19
  And then you've got that shared learning of, OK, well, what we
• 9:24
  really want to kind of get into is, OK, well, how does the data
• 9:26
  help me? Because again, once you've done
• 9:28
  it and you've built it all yourself, you still only know
• 9:31
  your business. So how do I perform against
• 9:33
  someone else in my MCC category? You know what's good in Denmark?
• 9:38
  Visa processing. You don't know because you can
• 9:41
  only look at yourself. Yeah, I've suddenly got a fraud
• 9:44
  spike in, yeah, Croatia for the MasterCard.
• 9:48
  Is is everybody else having the same thing?
• 9:50
  Benchmarking is key. Right.
• 9:51
  It's so, so actually where we really want to start voting is
• 9:54
  becoming that kind of like an index and completely anonymized,
• 9:58
  you know, how do I perform against the market and and
• 10:00
  benchmarking. And that's what's also going to
• 10:03
  start to drive. And I've had conversations with
• 10:05
  acquirers already where they really don't understand what's
• 10:08
  going on in their own business. I mean, yeah, coming back to
• 10:11
  previous roles, we really didn't.
• 10:13
  Yeah, we How could I compare against someone else?
• 10:15
  Because you only ever look at your own little box.
• 10:18
  You know, you've got a problem. But how do I quantify that
• 10:21
  problem? So it's mission #1 then simplify
• 10:24
  reconciliation or create intelligence for you guys.
• 10:28
  Mission number one is intelligence LED.
• 10:31
  For me, reconciliation comes as part of this, but I think for
• 10:34
  us, the value in what we're doing is, is, is using
• 10:38
  intelligence to allow businesses to, to grow.
• 10:40
  And you know, sometimes that can be growth by cost optimization,
• 10:44
  but most of it should be growth by, you know, how do I do more
• 10:47
  in the market? How do I grow more?
• 10:49
  How do I, you know, enter a new market?
• 10:51
  How do I, you know, optimize my processing?
• 10:55
  So all of that wrapped together in a in a single platform.
• 10:58
  So when we talk on payments, life cycles and intelligence,
• 11:02
  you guys the the world's first right in inverted commas, which
• 11:05
  is which is great exciting. What does that actually mean for
• 11:09
  businesses, do you think? It's a good question.
• 11:17
  I think there's an educational piece of what intelligence needs
• 11:20
  to be around payments because again, we talked about it
• 11:22
  before, it's been so focused at the front end.
• 11:25
  I think, yeah, some people do use data.
• 11:27
  And we had the big boom of big data 10 years ago, followed by
• 11:31
  the whole blockchain sort of things.
• 11:32
  And yeah, is AI now driving that next kind of evolution?
• 11:37
  I think it's made it more accessible for people.
• 11:40
  But again, back to the point is data is data unless you can get
• 11:44
  actual insight out of it. And that's what ultimately
• 11:47
  intelligence is, is, yeah, using it to make the right decision
• 11:51
  within my business. Is that turns thing off?
• 11:53
  Is that turns thing on? Is it grossing over there?
• 11:56
  Is it focused out there? That's, that's what we're
• 11:58
  looking to build is something which becomes that inherent tool
• 12:01
  that helps people. Yeah, have the dialogue their
• 12:04
  business and a single version of the truth.
• 12:06
  Because as we said before, there's multiple different
• 12:09
  places for where things are coming from.
• 12:12
  And we did some analysis of one of our early adopters recently.
• 12:15
  They're getting nearly 700 files a week from the payment chain.
• 12:19
  And so that's, you know, all settlement capture, you know,
• 12:22
  fraud alerts, chargeback alerts. Yeah.
• 12:25
  How do you manage those? And some of that life cycle
• 12:27
  could be over six months. So yeah, you've got to be
• 12:31
  managing and on the pulse of everything.
• 12:33
  So that's what we've built. It's something that automates
• 12:36
  that. You don't need to worry about
• 12:37
  it. Do you know what?
• 12:38
  You had another choir. We've already done it.
• 12:41
  Yeah. You want another fraud or
• 12:42
  chargeback provider or there's another something else that you
• 12:44
  want to add? We've already done that.
• 12:46
  When we were chatting before, you kind of called it the chief
• 12:48
  payments officer that never sleeps, right?
• 12:50
  I really like that as a a kind of phrase so that they're just
• 12:54
  there in the background, the products there in the
• 12:56
  background, doing that hard legwork for you.
• 12:59
  Someone wakes up in the morning, they come in and the data they
• 13:02
  need to see about all those things you talked about the
• 13:04
  oath, the chargeback, everything, settlement files
• 13:07
  just there, what? Ready to go, right.
• 13:08
  But also then to make recommendations beyond that with
• 13:11
  the data that's been received, right.
• 13:12
  Yeah. Yeah, you spot on is and I and I
• 13:16
  love that phrase. It is yeah.
• 13:18
  You know, the Chief payment officer as a platform, it's how
• 13:21
  do I, yeah, how, how does it help me as, as my business run
• 13:25
  it? Because I think back to the
• 13:27
  comment I meant before about, you know, this CEO, he said I
• 13:30
  wish I had more payments knowledge within there.
• 13:31
  Will this provide some of that and helps you understand that?
• 13:35
  So it's not just it's automated alerts.
• 13:37
  So set the thresholds. Tell me how your business works,
• 13:40
  what's important to you? So you're getting those real
• 13:43
  time alerts when something is happening so you can actually
• 13:46
  make a difference about it. So yeah, you look at the the
• 13:50
  average life cycle of a transaction, What's the North
• 13:52
  code last seven days. Most people reconcile on a
• 13:56
  monthly basis. So you're causing yourself a
• 13:59
  problem there. And yeah, I think we've, we've
• 14:01
  probably all had experiences. I remember, yeah, some time ago,
• 14:05
  major High Street retailer went and settled to them three months
• 14:08
  because someone changed a bank account.
• 14:10
  I mean, they nearly went into administration and you're kind
• 14:12
  of like, wow, what a yeah. I've had a couple of stories
• 14:16
  like that recently. There was a merchant I was
• 14:18
  speaking to, a previous role where again they changed
• 14:21
  provider. The provider was based in Europe
• 14:23
  and some cock up had happened in the background with bank
• 14:27
  accounts and they couldn't pay their staff at Christmas.
• 14:29
  It was getting to that point where they're like, we've got
• 14:31
  people waiting on salaries, like our card payments are our
• 14:34
  lifeblood and you're not selling us, you know, a, we're going to
• 14:37
  probably sue you, but P like we could go out of business.
• 14:40
  It's it. Gets back to the point where
• 14:42
  again, because the front end versus the back end, right,
• 14:44
  businesses and merchants spend so much time trying to get
• 14:47
  customers through the door to make a payment that sometimes
• 14:51
  the piece of actual settlement. And then when the money comes
• 14:54
  back round, the ecosystem is is forgotten about and the revenue
• 14:58
  is literally being left on the table.
• 14:59
  You mentioned about leaking revenue merchants.
• 15:01
  I believe 90% of merchants are leaking revenue that they don't
• 15:04
  even know exists. Completely agree.
• 15:07
  What, what do you think? Then the key points, if you're
• 15:09
  APSP or an acquirer watching them, will be kind of the pain
• 15:15
  points you guys will be helping them on for their merchants.
• 15:20
  As I mentioned before, I think, yeah, having been in acquirers
• 15:24
  before, we really struggled to get an understanding of where
• 15:28
  where we were in the market and what were we good at and what
• 15:31
  were we bad at. So it's not about pointing
• 15:33
  fingers, it's about educating. It's about helping people
• 15:36
  understand that in an apples for apples environment as well, OK,
• 15:41
  what is what is good and what is bad and how's that work right
• 15:44
  down to an issue a level. And I think for me, that's super
• 15:48
  exciting being able to really kind of get into that Costa
• 15:50
  ecosystem for more of APSP point of view.
• 15:55
  Yeah, look, there's multiple providers out there.
• 15:57
  And I think this is also the challenge where you only get to
• 16:00
  see your, your box, your square, what kind of goes through you.
• 16:04
  And a lot of them haven't been ultimately interested in
• 16:07
  payments intelligence and reconciliations. 1.
• 16:10
  And you know, how do I optimize acceptance?
• 16:14
  But it's not that full kind of, you know, ecosystem of looking
• 16:18
  at it from full end to end. That, I think is really what's
• 16:21
  what's kind of the sexy part of this?
• 16:24
  And then I guess as ever, we have to talk about AI, right?
• 16:28
  Yes, it's the, it's the thing that it's not really going away,
• 16:31
  is it? Right.
• 16:32
  We talk about it every time. But you know, are you guys
• 16:35
  predicting issues before they arise with AI?
• 16:38
  How does it plug into your, your platform?
• 16:41
  I guess because everyone says they're doing something with AI,
• 16:43
  right? But there's there's nuances to
• 16:45
  it in terms of the way you're actually using it.
• 16:47
  Yeah. And I'll be super honest with
• 16:48
  this is, you know, we, we, we've got AI in there and various
• 16:52
  components of it. And the guys have done some
• 16:54
  amazing things with it. Back to the reconciliation
• 16:57
  point, being able to, you know, learn data types, map data
• 17:01
  types, ingest data really quickly and easily and slickly
• 17:05
  and, and bring down that error rate.
• 17:06
  That is awesome. And that's one of those really
• 17:09
  great use cases for me. I think AI, there's a bit of a
• 17:12
  bugbear in there because everyone in the dog at the
• 17:14
  moment is putting AI on there. We do AI this, we do AI that,
• 17:17
  and it kind of comes back to that big data time.
• 17:20
  Everyone was doing big data five years ago, everything was
• 17:23
  blockchain. Machine learning banking.
• 17:25
  Yeah, open banking and now it's going to come on to the AI and I
• 17:28
  think, yes, there's a lot, but is this?
• 17:31
  Yeah, a lot of people claim to do AI when it's probably just
• 17:33
  some advanced, yeah, automation or a bit of machine learning and
• 17:37
  stuff. So yeah.
• 17:38
  That's the big one for me, the machine learning, right?
• 17:41
  Machine learning has been there for a very long time.
• 17:45
  We've kind of put a shiny new bonnet on on top of the the
• 17:48
  engine, but. And it's only as good to go.
• 17:50
  I don't know about you and me, but I break chat TTP every day.
• 17:53
  I mean, I have an argument with it.
• 17:54
  And so you lie to me. Oh, yeah.
• 17:55
  Sorry, Nick, I did. Yeah, I'll go off and do that.
• 17:58
  No, I can't find that information.
• 17:59
  Well, that's weird because I found that here.
• 18:01
  Did you look at this website? No.
• 18:03
  So it's. It's only as good as the model
• 18:06
  it is. So back to your point around the
• 18:09
  data. Yes, we will be in the world
• 18:11
  training models and looking at how that data is there.
• 18:14
  But we're super clear on making sure that that, you know, that
• 18:18
  data is anonymized. We, you know, we're not into
• 18:22
  sharing that kind of data and things like that.
• 18:23
  And I've have no interest in saying, well, this is Nick's
• 18:25
  business and yeah, this is how, you know, Grant does and his
• 18:29
  business is that's not what we're about.
• 18:32
  It's about kind of giving you industry indexes of actually
• 18:35
  what does good look across the market.
• 18:37
  What does my MCC look like in Germany?
• 18:40
  Yeah, what does? Yeah, this certain bin range,
• 18:43
  Yeah. Is it calling me an issue and
• 18:44
  how do others, you know, perform around that?
• 18:46
  It's more around driving performance across the industry
• 18:50
  and insight rather than going, hey, this is what this guy's
• 18:53
  doing, you should look at that. The Payment Shed Podcast is
• 18:56
  proudly sponsored by Tammy AI, the market intelligence and lead
• 19:00
  generation platform built for sales and marketing teams who
• 19:03
  want precision, not guesswork. Tammy helps businesses identify
• 19:06
  their best fit prospects, gain deep market insights and boost
• 19:10
  revenue growth. And it really has become the go
• 19:12
  to solution for the payments and fintech industries.
• 19:15
  Both Justin and I have used the tool in previous organizations
• 19:18
  that we've been in and we really can't recommend it highly
• 19:20
  enough. There's a link in the bio to
• 19:22
  click on the Tammy website and find out more about their
• 19:25
  product. You really won't regret it.
• 19:27
  That huge bugbear of mine and people talk about honest
• 19:30
  transactions and it frustrates me is if you are doing X acquire
• 19:34
  with X issuer, why do you get a better acceptance rate?
• 19:37
  And it shouldn't be like that, right?
• 19:38
  So if your well payers acquiring platform and it's HSBC card or
• 19:42
  there's a NatWest card or there's a Barclaycard card, it
• 19:44
  should be the same acceptance, right, as if it was going
• 19:46
  through Barclaycard acquiring or HSBC acquiring And it's just not
• 19:49
  like that, right. So it sounds like from what you
• 19:51
  guys are doing today, it's understanding that difference
• 19:55
  and as to seeing it not as I said before it happens, but as
• 19:57
  it's happening, you'll be able to report on that the
• 19:59
  intelligence behind it to give back to the merchant.
• 20:01
  Yeah, what I suppose the the question there is.
• 20:06
  Why is it not happening today apart from the data pools behind
• 20:10
  the acquirers? But even then I don't think that
• 20:14
  the acquirers are really doing it to a level they probably
• 20:17
  could. And I think, Joe, that's a good
• 20:19
  question. And I think for us, we're we're
• 20:23
  excited because I think there's an opportunity here and we've
• 20:26
  really understood it and we've been working with customers that
• 20:29
  have got these panes and have brought it to table.
• 20:31
  And it's, but it has been a reoccurring thing that's come up
• 20:34
  again back to it. Possibly because it's, it's not
• 20:36
  the sexy front end of it. It's not a payment page, it's
• 20:39
  not conversion, it's not an Apple Pay button.
• 20:41
  It's yeah, it's it's, it's different or, or maybe it's
• 20:45
  because the tools don't exist up until now.
• 20:48
  You. Kind of turn that raw data and
• 20:49
  make it into decisions for businesses, right?
• 20:51
  I think part of. The problem is the sheer amount
• 20:53
  of of M&A activity that's happened as well.
• 20:56
  So an acquirer is not an acquirer anymore.
• 20:58
  An acquirer is a payments business or it is just a
• 21:03
  business that services the global economy, right.
• 21:06
  It's it it doesn't even have to have payments in the title in
• 21:08
  terms of, you know, from a strike point of view.
• 21:11
  They buy, you know, they're in that tech provider anymore.
• 21:14
  Yeah. The tech company.
• 21:15
  Yeah. But how many different companies
• 21:16
  have Stripe got feeding data or even to their own platform?
• 21:19
  So you become a a giant oil rig, right, with the sheer volume of
• 21:23
  data that you've got from all these different data sources.
• 21:26
  So even someone like Stripe would would struggle probably
• 21:29
  overnight to, you know, they'll try their best, I'm sure.
• 21:32
  But like, as you scale to that level, there's always going to
• 21:36
  be opportunity for other players coming in and going well,
• 21:38
  actually, yeah, we're going to look at a small pool of your
• 21:40
  customer base and your customer base and your customer base.
• 21:42
  And actually they're using all of you guys or they just don't
• 21:45
  get what they need from you guys.
• 21:46
  So there's always that gap in the market.
• 21:48
  We want payments. Such a great industry, right?
• 21:49
  There will always be little weak points within large
• 21:52
  organizations that then lead to new businesses entering the
• 21:57
  market that actually show the others how they should be doing
• 22:00
  something. And then they eventually get
• 22:01
  bought as well and they get started into the machine and
• 22:03
  then the next one comes. But we always have new
• 22:05
  start-ups, always have new innovation in the payments
• 22:07
  industry and so keeps it so interesting.
• 22:09
  Yeah, you're right. I've, I've always had a phrase
• 22:11
  where it used to be acquirer based buys a gateway, acquirer
• 22:14
  ruins the gateway, Carl goes and buys another gateway.
• 22:17
  And and yeah, it generally happens is they, you know, they
• 22:20
  seem to be an inherent thing as you get to the size of an
• 22:22
  acquirer, you know, innovation stagnant, stagnant, isn't it?
• 22:26
  It doesn't just doesn't seem to happen.
• 22:28
  You know, it becomes more about sweating the beast getting more
• 22:31
  and more and more out of the engine.
• 22:33
  And that's where you lose, you kind of lose that ability and
• 22:36
  therefore gaps do evolve. You're right.
• 22:40
  You made a really interesting point there where it was kind of
• 22:42
  about that kind of growth and scale the size.
• 22:44
  And you know, we were talking to a customer of the week and he
• 22:47
  said to me, right, yeah, you've got 5000 traction transactions,
• 22:51
  really easy to reconcile, can throw a couple of spreadsheet at
• 22:54
  it, not really a problem. Get to 50,000.
• 22:57
  OK, yeah, things start decree could have got a couple of
• 22:59
  people doing that stick 500,000 on there and and people aren't
• 23:03
  going to solve it for you. You need to automate that
• 23:05
  process. And and I think that's actually
• 23:08
  a fundamental issue across a lot of acquirers and businesses have
• 23:11
  been in is to get that incremental growth by that.
• 23:14
  You can't just throw people and bodies at it anymore.
• 23:18
  Yeah. And I think they're not raw data
• 23:20
  that we we talk about. How are you guys then turning
• 23:24
  that into decisions? So I'm not business, it's gone
• 23:26
  from 5 to 50 to 500,000. Then suddenly I've got a huge
• 23:30
  amount of data and then things like retry logic come in and
• 23:33
  because they've got more than one acquirer now probably at
• 23:35
  that point, like how do you take that data and, and go back to
• 23:39
  Mr. Business owner or Mrs. business owner and say, right,
• 23:42
  the platform says do this and we think you'll get these outcomes
• 23:44
  from from going down this route or routing these transactions
• 23:47
  here. How are you kind of building
• 23:48
  that out? So it's all it's all in
• 23:51
  automated dashboards and triggers and alerts and things
• 23:53
  like that as well. And, and they'll be going again,
• 23:55
  everyone's going to be different than what they're looking for.
• 23:58
  So early on. It's going to be a help out
• 24:00
  training that and making that work with those businesses to
• 24:03
  get the right answers. Just wanted, so the first thing
• 24:07
  is to be clear is at this stage we're, we're very much post
• 24:10
  transaction. We, we're not involved in that.
• 24:12
  And I think there is an opportunity still within the
• 24:14
  market, especially within, you know, orchestrators is, you
• 24:17
  know, very few of them have API routing engines.
• 24:21
  So you're in again, you're stuck in their platform being able to
• 24:26
  make the change. And if you don't have the data
• 24:27
  within your orchestrator, you're not going to get the
• 24:30
  intelligence you need to make that decision.
• 24:33
  You know what happens if there's AI don't know and we've seen it.
• 24:37
  I think some of your posts that you've done back in the day
• 24:43
  completely for Justin. It's easily done.
• 24:48
  Yeah, it's easily done, but you're right.
• 24:51
  But one of your posts I think a while ago was talking about like
• 24:54
  literally into our operating acceptance rates.
• 24:57
  And yeah, at some point we want to get to that point where,
• 25:00
  yeah, you're real time, you'll be able to see that and you see
• 25:02
  that you might not be proceeding some of that, but you want to
• 25:05
  learn from that knowledge, you want to benefit from that and
• 25:08
  help that. So actually it's evolving that
• 25:10
  yeah, that's where AI comes into it.
• 25:13
  And with the view of kind of getting to a real agentic model
• 25:15
  to say, hey, we're seeing this, do you want to make that change?
• 25:19
  And at the first stage, and I'm yeah, it's going to be very much
• 25:23
  human driven. OK, do you want to do it?
• 25:24
  You're going to have to go off and do that.
• 25:26
  But actually, do you be able to integrate that into, you know,
• 25:29
  the orchestrators or another platform that's actually able to
• 25:32
  take that request in real time and go, hey, you know, we've
• 25:35
  seen it. We've we've seen that this
• 25:37
  issuer is failing. Let's route all that traffic
• 25:40
  over there. A big thing I always haven't.
• 25:42
  You mentioned it. There is if I'm got a
• 25:45
  reoccurring card payment and it's coming out at 3:00 in the
• 25:47
  morning and I bank with NatWest and I don't get paid till 4:00
• 25:51
  in the morning. Why would a merchant everyone to
• 25:53
  try and pull their their payment at three O 1 in the morning when
• 25:56
  there's no funds in the account? Why we're not using AI data set?
• 25:59
  Actually, we know that most NatWest consumers don't get paid
• 26:02
  to four O 1, which try and take this recurring transaction at
• 26:05
  four O 5 because you're just battling with every every other
• 26:08
  businesses trying to take their phones out that account, right?
• 26:11
  Race, race to the wallet. Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:13
  Someone's worked in lending in the past.
• 26:17
  How do you manage kind of the the sensitivity part of that?
• 26:20
  So compliance is a huge piece, right?
• 26:22
  It's a buzzword that most people in sales don't get along with.
• 26:25
  But from your perspective, how can you make sure you're being
• 26:27
  compliant when you're trying to give the insight to your
• 26:30
  merchants? So look, we've built this with
• 26:32
  compliance and security from the ground up and that's critical to
• 26:36
  what we do. And, and we know that some
• 26:38
  people are going to be cautious about where does my data go and
• 26:43
  how do we control that. So it's bank level grade.
• 26:46
  We've made sure we're kind of, you know, we're doing that.
• 26:48
  We're, you know, looking at GDPR and all those relevant things
• 26:51
  that kind of surround that. So good to ensure that we give,
• 26:54
  we give that confidence. The reality is this is already
• 26:57
  merchant's data already. It's already kind of out there.
• 27:00
  And actually it's quite interesting that it's probably
• 27:02
  even out there in the open market, to be honest.
• 27:05
  There's so much now with yeah, cyber threats and yeah, and
• 27:09
  things like that, that it's, yeah.
• 27:11
  That it's a real, it's, yeah, it's a challenge.
• 27:13
  But we've taken and we, we addressed it seriously and we,
• 27:15
  yeah, we give the confidence to people that yeah, we'll look,
• 27:18
  we'll look after it as if it's our own.
• 27:20
  It's the only way you can do it. And it gets harder.
• 27:23
  I mean, again, you, you said when we were chatting before,
• 27:25
  you know, someone could have 200 acquirers on your, your platform
• 27:29
  if they wanted to, right. So then you're dealing with huge
• 27:31
  amounts of inbound data sources from, from different locations
• 27:35
  from different acquirers protecting that initially, yes,
• 27:40
  that, you know, you built the, the infrastructure around that.
• 27:43
  I'm more interested though in the way we're going as far as
• 27:46
  staying ahead of scheme and compliance, you know, in the, in
• 27:50
  the market is concerned. So you've got rapid dispute
• 27:53
  response. Now we've got things going on
• 27:54
  with Vamp Price. You're dealing with different
• 27:56
  ways of handling chargebacks moving forward.
• 27:58
  So you'll have merchants in your your ecosystem that have got,
• 28:01
  yeah, let's say we've got a, a medium high risk traditionally
• 28:04
  merchant. They've got 6 to 12 different
• 28:07
  acquirers. They then have to manage
• 28:09
  different regulatory changes from the schemes.
• 28:11
  They have to deal with chargebacks into, into different
• 28:13
  acquirers as well. They've got, you know, the Vamp
• 28:16
  rules coming in. How is your system kind of set
• 28:19
  up for those regulatory pieces that are coming into play?
• 28:21
  Yeah, Vamp vamp's been a real interesting one to talk about
• 28:25
  and and a bit of a driver for where we've we kind of got to
• 28:28
  because so many people don't have a clue.
• 28:30
  I mean, look, I think for Visa for quite a while didn't really
• 28:33
  have a clue what they were putting out there.
• 28:34
  It's changed so many times. But I guess if you look at it in
• 28:38
  a version of say, right, OK, well, we made that change once.
• 28:40
  We made that calculation change once everyone gets up there.
• 28:44
  So yeah, the data and the, the dashboards and the, the, the
• 28:47
  platform now is giving me a view of, well, how do I stand with
• 28:51
  VAMP today? What does my calculation look
• 28:52
  like? And where's that trending?
• 28:55
  Is it going up or is it going down based on the historical
• 28:58
  data I've got? And we also know that it's going
• 29:00
  to be revised in April. So what do I look like now?
• 29:03
  Am I getting towards that or actually am I going the wrong
• 29:06
  way? That's how useful it is for for
• 29:10
  merchants to be able to do that. And do you know what?
• 29:12
  It will change again. And we know Mastercard's
• 29:13
  probably going to come out with their own version of it.
• 29:16
  So yeah, we create that calculation and we can instantly
• 29:20
  give them a view and say, right, this is where you are today.
• 29:23
  And actually, based on your trends over the last six months,
• 29:26
  are you going up or are you going down?
• 29:27
  Are you stagnant? It's yeah, becomes really
• 29:30
  powerful from that point of view.
• 29:31
  It can be challenging and we work for smaller PSP before and
• 29:35
  something we we called out and I think, you know, house got
• 29:38
  better, but the schemes always had great relationships with the
• 29:41
  acquirers, right? The issue wasn't the acquirers
• 29:43
  and the schemes first to hear about everything first to be
• 29:46
  guided and everything. And then you had independent
• 29:48
  PSPS that would you'd find it in the market, but you weren't
• 29:51
  directly getting that information.
• 29:53
  And then you guys and then another step removed as an
• 29:55
  agnostic player focusing on on data like you say post
• 29:58
  transaction off, right. So how is your relationship with
• 30:02
  the schemes? Do you have a relationship with
• 30:03
  the schemes or do you feel still like there's more to be done in
• 30:06
  that area because that's going to be pivotal for you guys.
• 30:07
  Obviously we've doesn't matter who the acquirer is, but from a
• 30:11
  scheme point of view what they are saying and dictating to the
• 30:14
  market is, is massively important to you guys and your
• 30:16
  customer base, right. Well, we're starting to have
• 30:18
  conversations and then we'd love to have more and we'd love to
• 30:21
  open those doors because I think this is a way for them to help
• 30:24
  monitor market again. Yeah, without conversation,
• 30:28
  people, I'll get some of this data from MasterCard.
• 30:30
  Great. But there's only one scheme.
• 30:32
  This is this whole point of wherever you end up, there's
• 30:35
  always a single view, which is why we've found that there's
• 30:38
  this, there's this, this kind of knowledge gap at the bottom end
• 30:42
  that's really not helping everyone just going to see.
• 30:45
  And you know, we fully well know Visa and MasterCard, they do
• 30:48
  behave in different ways, completely different beasts.
• 30:52
  Then you've got Amex, then you start looking at, you know, Apms
• 30:55
  and all the other things like that.
• 30:56
  And that's, that will kind of colour come into that ecosystem
• 30:59
  as well. So yeah, it's not just a single
• 31:02
  player, but yeah, yeah, just spot on.
• 31:04
  We'd love to get involved in more.
• 31:06
  And then we know the journey of the of the data is yeah, all
• 31:10
  acquirers in in essence get the same data from the yeah schemes
• 31:15
  and issuers. But does that come out the back
• 31:18
  end? We know that's.
• 31:19
  Not the case. So yes, the stuff gets stripped
• 31:22
  out. Yeah, information gets lost in
• 31:24
  the way why didn't think it was important at a time not got the
• 31:27
  capability to manage it it. Was built 20 years ago to get us
• 31:30
  to market as quick as possible and now the business done pretty
• 31:33
  well 20s late. We've got no idea what that
• 31:34
  actually means and it happens all the time.
• 31:36
  And I think what's interesting there, we talk about the
• 31:38
  schemes, talk about acquirers. There's a lot of gateways and
• 31:41
  PSPS. They've got their own criteria
• 31:43
  settings before it even is sent to an acquirer.
• 31:47
  So I think where you guys come into it from my perspective is,
• 31:50
  is not just helping the merchants, is helping potential
• 31:52
  PSPS as well to ensure that they're sending the right data
• 31:55
  and their files to schemes to get the right files back.
• 32:00
  Interesting. So what would you say then would
• 32:02
  be the commercial upside do you think for for a merchant that's
• 32:04
  maybe invested into payments intelligence now as opposed to
• 32:09
  in 10 years time? It's a really smart question.
• 32:14
  I mean, like there's an there's an argument always for, for
• 32:17
  waiting. You know, it's a budget time, I
• 32:19
  think. But, you know, you know, the
• 32:21
  longer you often wait for these things, very few people ever go.
• 32:25
  I'm so glad I waited three years to do this.
• 32:28
  It's always that, that answer. And yeah, you'll know that some
• 32:31
  people, yeah, they don't often don't know they're missing out
• 32:35
  on it until they understand it. And I think that's where we'll
• 32:38
  come into that is, is helping them really understand what does
• 32:42
  it, what does intelligence mean? Yeah, I think you've talked to
• 32:45
  quite a lot of businesses and they'll be like, I don't need
• 32:48
  payment intelligence. So, yeah, I'm, I'm good enough
• 32:50
  myself. And yeah, we're building it
• 32:53
  that, yeah, try it, learn it. Yeah.
• 32:56
  Use it for free for, for a period of time, something like
• 32:58
  that. And there's freemium model in
• 33:00
  there as well. And how do we, Yeah, how do you
• 33:03
  educate them that actually you are missing things and it only
• 33:06
  takes a small amount to make it worthwhile.
• 33:10
  Yeah, if you can increase an acceptance rate by 0.2% on a
• 33:15
  £10,000,000 business, that's, that's, that's worthwhile.
• 33:18
  And it's those small incremental amounts.
• 33:21
  It's, it's, it's kind of back to your, your Team Sky approach.
• 33:25
  If I can take, you know, 1% here and 1% here and yeah, .5% here.
• 33:30
  Barreford yeah, the aggregate, yeah, the aggregate of those
• 33:34
  together might give me 6 or 7%. And that's, yeah, you can
• 33:39
  convert as many customers as you like, drive as much traffic to
• 33:41
  your customers into your platform as you can.
• 33:44
  Yeah, you're probably not going to get that much from a mature
• 33:46
  business in terms of yeah, uplifting new revenue.
• 33:49
  I. Think it's one of these things
• 33:51
  I'm going to say in payment sort of time is you don't know what
• 33:53
  you don't know, right. So I suppose from your
• 33:55
  perspective is getting people to letters in and and we can show
• 33:58
  you what we're able to do for you.
• 34:01
  And how do you see Unitex fitting into the broader payment
• 34:05
  stack when we think longer term with this?
• 34:07
  Are you guys going to be a partner?
• 34:08
  Are you going to be an overlay for other systems?
• 34:12
  Are you going to be an operating system like what's the the plan
• 34:14
  of action there? The foremost of the moment is
• 34:17
  we're very, we're merchant focused and and that's the real
• 34:21
  value. I yeah, we've already had
• 34:24
  conversations with some partners and starting to open that out
• 34:28
  and I think there's a really good opportunity there for that,
• 34:31
  for people to help help manage their businesses better and get
• 34:36
  better insights as well. So, yeah.
• 34:38
  And again, you look at, you look at multiple, yeah, businesses,
• 34:42
  they might have multiple gateways.
• 34:44
  And you know, I've come across business before where, yeah, you
• 34:47
  big acquirers, 4 different platforms, they've got a gateway
• 34:51
  themselves isn't integrated to all four platforms.
• 34:54
  So it's like, well, how do your customers get a consolidated
• 34:57
  view of what's going on in your business?
• 34:59
  It's insane really. But that's legacy and time and
• 35:02
  effort and things to kind of get into that.
• 35:04
  So I think we play a really important role at that, that
• 35:07
  bottom end kind of being that glue of helping kind of bring
• 35:10
  things together and there will be opportunities.
• 35:13
  I think it's sure to kind of use that as a better intelligent
• 35:17
  layer to make better decisions. I think it's that classic thing
• 35:20
  of you're closer to the merchant sometimes when you're when
• 35:24
  you're going merchant first and you're, you know, talking about
• 35:26
  that oil tanker thing I mentioned earlier, you know, you
• 35:30
  then get closer to what are your actual pain points?
• 35:32
  What are your actual problems? And then platforms like you guys
• 35:35
  arise and you're like, we we're doing this because we're on the
• 35:37
  frontline. We're actually talking to the
• 35:39
  customers day in day out that that face these issues.
• 35:42
  I was just going to ask you one question as well.
• 35:44
  Obviously knowing that you know, core part of your founding team,
• 35:46
  obviously based in Europe, prior experience founding European
• 35:50
  businesses as well. And we, we talked a lot about
• 35:53
  cards and schemes today, but the local payment methods we have
• 35:56
  the stuff with Wearo in Europe taking place at the moment ideal
• 35:59
  about to obviously fall under that Wear umbrella.
• 36:02
  And different challenges arise in terms of managing disputes
• 36:05
  with some of the, the local payment methods that we see in
• 36:08
  Europe. Is that kind of like a nuanced
• 36:10
  thing that you guys have had to factor in as well?
• 36:11
  Because as you scale, I presume Europe's going to be a big focus
• 36:14
  for you guys as well. So what what the differentials
• 36:16
  that you see with some of those local payment methods versus?
• 36:17
  Yeah. Well, yeah, spot on.
• 36:19
  Growth markets, UK, Europe for sure, although we're already
• 36:23
  having conversations in the US and I can imagine Asia PAC will
• 36:26
  come quite quickly as well. So it's not going to be isolated
• 36:29
  to that. But yeah, you're right, Nuances
• 36:31
  even in UK, you know, PayPal, yeah, it's a huge part of the
• 36:35
  market making sure that's factored in and managed.
• 36:39
  And that's again, the way we build that.
• 36:41
  It's agnostic to the methods and everyone will have different
• 36:44
  ways to do it. And back to your point on the
• 36:47
  AI, the AI part pretty damn smart in terms of the way that
• 36:52
  it can, you know, understand the flows of those different
• 36:55
  transactional journeys. And I keep banging on about it.
• 36:59
  And even with the guys I know they're, you know, kind of get
• 37:01
  bored about it with me was is this is it's about that
• 37:04
  transactional life cycle that I think people really struggle to
• 37:08
  understand that it's not just I take a payment and I'm done.
• 37:11
  There's so many components that happen.
• 37:14
  I after the event that could be a day, it could be a week, it
• 37:17
  could be a month. And every APM slightly different
• 37:21
  in the way that that operates. Yeah.
• 37:23
  Time frames can be consolidated, can get longer.
• 37:26
  So yeah, we've taken all that into into account and yeah,
• 37:30
  it's, it's quite interesting. Fantastic.
• 37:33
  Now Nick, we've reached the best bit of the show, The Shelf of
• 37:36
  Shame. One thing we'd like to hear from
• 37:38
  you is, is what we'd like to bring from the merchant services
• 37:41
  world to the payment shed that you'd like to banish forever.
• 37:46
  My biggest pain point, and I reckon you'll echo with this as
• 37:49
  well, is where people would say I do 5 million car transaction a
• 37:55
  month and they do 5000. So it's the overestimating
• 38:00
  because they think they're going to get a better price.
• 38:01
  Yeah. And actually what it does is
• 38:03
  it's just great. Having been in commercial roles
• 38:06
  and had bosses, it just puts a massive monkey on your back that
• 38:10
  you can't get off because someone said something.
• 38:14
  Because you you gear up the business for it.
• 38:17
  Every, every day you're getting a fraud flag or an alert from
• 38:20
  Risk because they're not doing the volume that they said they
• 38:22
  were going to do. So it's not just about the
• 38:26
  commercials, it's about the whole operation.
• 38:27
  We're talking about salespeople in payments overselling, but
• 38:30
  sometimes merchants oversell back to the payments industry,
• 38:32
  right My. Partnerships is better though,
• 38:33
  because you know, you don't, you know, merchant wise, you're
• 38:38
  harder to put a massive monthly minimum on right with a platform
• 38:40
  partner or a partner in general. They'll, they'll tell you
• 38:44
  exactly what you've just said and you can call their bluff a
• 38:46
  lot more 'cause you go, great, you tell me you're gonna have
• 38:48
  700 customers in six months. If you don't, our platform fears
• 38:52
  £10,000 or 50, you know, and then they go about those 7000.
• 38:58
  Customers, there's a couple of zeros.
• 38:59
  Dave forgot a zero. Yeah.
• 39:00
  So 700 can we do a £500 monthly minimum for a month?
• 39:03
  OK. I think it's a really good
• 39:05
  point. Now it.
• 39:05
  Does seem like Deja vu that we've had this conversation many
• 39:08
  a time ever applying and I don't think you're going to beat me
• 39:11
  and yeah I mean I'm. I was always direct OK yeah
• 39:14
  yeah. Looked after kind of partnership
• 39:16
  teams and stuff like that as well.
• 39:17
  But yeah, direct is my heart and.
• 39:20
  I've done both but I'm just saying.
• 39:21
  I think it's a valid point. I think merchants overselling
• 39:24
  their volumes to try and get cheaper prices for economy of
• 39:27
  scale, when actually what it does in the long term is
• 39:29
  probably give a bit of a problem to the to to to the person
• 39:32
  selling them the product. Yeah.
• 39:34
  Well, it causes a bigger issue because sometimes it can be that
• 39:36
  you've, yeah, you've over egged it and actually the way that
• 39:40
  you've then underwritten that and the risk and stuff that's
• 39:43
  involved in that can can actually be loss making because
• 39:46
  you haven't put additional resource in there to monitor and
• 39:48
  maintain that and stuff like that.
• 39:50
  So I think people don't understand sometimes that it's
• 39:52
  purely just a number of pieces. In defence of the merchant as
• 39:56
  well, some of that I think is becoming what percent of share
• 39:59
  of wallet can you give us, right And then?
• 40:02
  There's also a caveat or push back onto the provider, the
• 40:04
  payment provider. OK, well, tell us why we should
• 40:07
  give you more share of 1. And then it comes down to a
• 40:08
  platform like yours. We're like, well, actually we're
• 40:11
  getting a better authorization right here or we're moving into
• 40:13
  this market where we know the data tells us we're getting a
• 40:15
  better authorization. So that's why you're getting a
• 40:17
  smaller share of wallet. Now, if you can evidence the
• 40:20
  why, yeah. Changes the price.
• 40:22
  You can tell us why you're lying.
• 40:23
  That'd be great. I suppose the piece for that is,
• 40:26
  is, is every salesperson that works for a business where they
• 40:29
  get paid in contract value probably wants a merchant to
• 40:33
  tell them that they're going to do much bigger volumes, right?
• 40:35
  Because it means going to get paid a little bit more on that
• 40:36
  sign on fee. Not saying I am for or against
• 40:39
  sign on fees for any any merchant service provider.
• 40:42
  But I've never, I've never done sign on fees, never worked in
• 40:45
  that way. And I just think sometimes it's
• 40:47
  just, yeah. It's a fantastic idea.
• 40:49
  It's it's the honest. Yeah, the honesty part of it.
• 40:51
  I don't know. I'm saying this is everyone, but
• 40:53
  sometimes it is. I do.
• 40:54
  Yeah. I always, I always said if I
• 40:56
  had, I've had every penny of volume that I'd been promised.
• 40:59
  Guarantee you I wouldn't be sat here.
• 41:01
  I'd have a nice boat somewhere. You'd still be sat here anyway.
• 41:04
  Yeah, probably. We'd just be sat on your boat.
• 41:06
  Yeah, true. Yeah, true.
• 41:07
  Yeah, maybe that is the next one.
• 41:09
  Yeah, payment shed on the boat. I think we could do a payment
• 41:12
  show, probably already on the list of ideas that we've got.
• 41:14
  Well, thanks for joining us in the Payment Shed today.
• 41:17
  Nick, tell us where you're going with Unitex.
• 41:19
  You're going to be at some events over the next few months.
• 41:21
  Where can people find you? Get in touch, social media.
• 41:24
  Yeah, so yeah, quite proactive LinkedIn, I mean, obviously
• 41:28
  check out Unitex dot AI. Is is is the website?
• 41:32
  We've got the new URL. Yes, it is.
• 41:34
  It is well. The New World.
• 41:38
  Events wise, probably not going to be so active in the this part
• 41:41
  of the year running into Christmas.
• 41:43
  I think we're very much heads down, got a lot of product stuff
• 41:45
  to do and kind of get that out. But New year definitely will
• 41:49
  will be out and about. So yeah, we're looking forward
• 41:51
  to seeing people. And yeah, if anyone wants to
• 41:53
  know anything, yeah, reach out. Pretty easy to get hold of.
• 41:56
  Know my name and you know the website.
• 41:58
  Awesome. Perfect.
• 41:59
  Thanks a lot for your time. Nick, awesome.
• 42:00
  Thanks guys.