Latest / The Decision Advantage / Leadership Lessons in Emergency & Crisis Management
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome to the Decision Advantage, a fusion intelligence podcast by Fernand Consulting. I'm Brian LeClaire, and today I will be speaking with ⁓ Robert Ravert, the consultant in emergency management here at Fernand Consulting. Bob, welcome to the show. speaker-1: ⁓ thank you, Brian. I appreciate it. speaker-0: All right. So to just get us started, I would love to talk about ⁓ your really remarkable career from serving in the Marines during high tension operations involving Iran and other countries to your time with the New York Fire Department and the New York Army National Guard. So looking across that incredible journey, ⁓ what core experiences like shaped your perspective on emergency management response and and crisis management? speaker-1: Well, first th you know, I grew up in the in New York City in nineteen seventies, ⁓ seventies and the eighties. New York City was a harsh place in in the seventies and eighties. Right. It was it was gritty, it was dirty. It was it was the murder capital of the United States at one point in time. The city had gone into financial debt. There was a lot of things. So growing up that way you get pretty edgy about a lot of things. And one of the things that led me into the Marines was that I had a f couple of friends that were ⁓ murdered or murdered somebody and went to jail. So it was a tough experience to go to, which lip but when you grow up that way, you you end up having a certain outlook on life. So the Marine Corps for me was a life-saving adventure of that kept me from being a statistic. When we talk about the 119 when I was in the Marines, so gonna jump for a minute. When I got to the fire department, the guys in the firehouse said, Don't be on the job, be in it. And That was actually one of those things about being in the Marines that I I knew is that you were a Marine. You it was part of you, it was part of who you were, and it became a lifestyle. You just this is the way things were. You were responsible for a lot of things at a very early age. Okay. And you were given a lot of responsibility and you took that responsibility f ⁓ clearly. When it came down to Lebanon, I was not in Lebanon. What happened was there was no such thing back then as instant news or instant feedback. Everything went to message center and October twenty-third, I went to the message center early in the morning and I got a message nineteen eighty-three. October twenty third, nineteen eighty-three, the Marine Corps was on a humanitarian mission in ⁓ peacekeeping mission actually, in ⁓ Beirut, Lebanon, and they were at the airport and a truck bomb came in through the gate and they blew up the barracks and they killed two hundred and forty two Marines. ⁓ I believe it was Hezbollah. speaker-0: Year was this? speaker-1: ⁓ and I believe that Hezbollah was actually ⁓ financed by Iran. Okay. And the thing with Iran was if if sorry I remember when I went to the Marines was nineteen seventy nine, that was the same year that the Marines ⁓ the ⁓ Marine Embassy was taken over and it was one of those things where where, you know, there was action reaction, action reaction. And ⁓ the ⁓ Iranian embassy ended diplomatically, however, it had after effect and that was the end up being the ⁓ Mar ⁓ Marine Barracks. This is all to the best of my knowledge. All right. This is how I remember it. And because I remember it this way, it doesn't mean it's factual. And this is one of the things I tell people I said, remember getting the message. I remember getting the message and I I said it was a gut punch. It was l liter literally by your message. And the message said Marine ⁓ Marine Barracks, Beirut, ⁓ bomb two hundred and forty two known dead rescue operations on the way. And I I got the message and the message center and the and the ⁓ sergeant gave it to me. ⁓ said ⁓ you know, bring us to the commander. So I went to my commanding officer. ⁓ his name was Major White. Major White ⁓ got it. He said, Give me a minute, don't tell anybody and later on he addressed the troops, et cetera. So speaker-0: Was this first kind of experience with that sort of you know, crisis and yeah. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. It literally felt if you ever I mean if you've ever been punched in the stomach and and it i a gut punch is a gut punch. You feel it. You know, especially if you played hockey or football or anything else and you get knocked to the ground, you get the wind knocked out of you, that feeling lives with you forever. You just remember it. And this was that same type of gut punch. So a little while later, as I remember this, ⁓ a little while later, ⁓ the USS, either New Jersey or Iowa ⁓ battleship went in, they they shelled the Becca Valley, and then a little while later, ⁓ we went in and we ⁓ invaded Grenada. You know, go for they don't they don't match. They're not there, they don't match. So, you know, the ⁓ my opinion is is that there were so many after effects from the Vietnam War. And there were so many after effects from that people didn't take consideration. The Marines were on a peacekeeping mission and then one of the things about the guards were at at that point in time they had ⁓ they were allowed to carry ⁓ weapons and but they're not allowed to ⁓ load them. In fact I I believe that they had the ammunition wired tied into their ammo pouches so that they couldn't draw them and shoot and because the the administration didn't want to ⁓ didn't want to escalate things with anybody. And this is this is where I go into complete ⁓ absolutely complete ⁓ opinion is that that that should have been left to the on the ground commander, not to a politician, not to an embassy person. The on-the-ground commander has that ability to protect his troops at all points and set the row, the ⁓ rules of engagement, the ROE. You know? So, anyways, that's my opinion. That's what that's that's what happened back then. And then ⁓ over a period of time, I left the Marines soon afterwards. And ⁓ came out ⁓ came out ⁓ back to New York, ⁓ became a union plumber for a while, and then ⁓ was fortunate enough to ⁓ g get hired to the fire department ⁓ when I was younger. I love the Marine Corps, by the way. ⁓ I did. They gave me structure, they gave me everything. When we go when we talk about Lebanon and we talk about the Iranian hostage ⁓ situation, those were always unresolved conflicts. They were always unresolved conflicts. Okay. They did not meet a critical end. And I cannot second guess the people who made decisions. ⁓ but ⁓ my opinion did not meet a a a critical end. They were just kind of like, well, they're all the way over there, just let it go. And then over the years, ⁓ in 1993, they tried to blow up the World Trade Center. ⁓ I was not a a firefighter at that point in time. And then, of course, in 2001, ⁓ September eleventh, ⁓ two planes flew crew into the ⁓ World Trade Center. and brought Trade Center down and ⁓ I was there and I was there off and on for the next nine months. You know, so speaker-0: How did you see ⁓ leaders like ⁓ manage when there's panic going on? speaker-1: I didn't see I I will tell you that my opinion of the World Trade Center and the aftermath, there was no panic. I did not see panic. Yes. Now please don't get me wrong. Anybody listen to this, don't get me wrong. There were people who were jumping out of the building. But that was a I think that was a conscious decision on those I don't think it was panic. The people on the ground did not panic. They simply walked out of the building. speaker-0: Which is really amazing. speaker-1: And what happened was the discussion showed what happened was it once again, my opinion, when the pressure's on, the pressure's really on, you'd be surprised how many people work together and what they do and how they work together, and how seamlessly or flawlessly or how integrated it gets. speaker-0: Do you think that just happens naturally or is there a leadership that's that's driving that? speaker-1: ⁓ I think it I think it ⁓ does really I think it's two or three aspects come into it. I think that because we ⁓ we live in a society that we we do and we take this we take this for granted is that we are actually more we're actually more likable and more helpful than we actually see on in media. We are. And we do and and we'll go back and once again we'll go back to ⁓ we'll go back to ⁓ Lebanon. They were there on a peacekeeping tour, all right. When the Marines went into Somalia, they were there in a peace seating humanitarian tour. The Marine Corps is the forward deployed unit of the United States, and they go on many, many humanitarian missions that never go reported. speaker-0: Right, you don't hear about that. You hear about them going in guns ablazin, as they say, you know. Yes. speaker-1: Yeah, yes, the other part to that goes when you absolutely need them destroyed overnight, send the Marines in, right? In this case, it's the opposite side of the corn, like when you absolutely need something to be done, send the Marines in. Yeah. ⁓ once again, just my opinion, right? So ⁓ anyways, when I was down at the Trade Center, the fire department got there. ⁓ they were there. I did not get there immediately. I went there actually the after the second tower collapsed. And what I saw were people overwhelmed. But continuously functioning. So the the the tra the the towel comes down, ⁓ there's debris everywhere. And then I remember one of the chiefs got on a vehicle took his helmet off, ⁓ addressed everyone. He said, There are a terrible tragedy right now, but there's work to be done. He had everybody take their helmets off. He said, Let's have a moment of silence. reorganized, took a moment, paused, and then marched on, and then they started getting things done. And then over a while, assets started rolling in slowly but surely. More personnel started rolling in slowly but surely. And then it started to shape itself over a period of time. Anybody who lives in the quick fix areas of life are just wrong. They just there is no quick fix. Everything incrementally over time is how things work. You know, you pee people all the time turn around and say, ⁓ you know, we need a revolution. We're real evolution. Like, no, we really don't. We just need evolution. We just need to march on. speaker-0: Sounds like, you know, one of the things that you'd say that leaders should take away from all that is like just pause and you know, take a breath, figure out what's going on. Yeah. speaker-1: When I was when I was diving the ⁓ when I was diving there was a sign that said that said, Stop, think, react. You know, and it was yeah, find yourself in a jam, stop, think, and react. Fire department was the same way. Fire department, it's not as dynamic as the police department, right? It's not that things are changing constantly for the police department and they're underrated as to how they many situations they get to every day. The fire department gets there and you have base knowledge like the place is on fire. What do you want to do? How about we get some water on it? Pretty simple, straightforward, right? You know. ⁓ with the police department thinks it's dynamically changing all the time. So there's a there's a there's a basic shift there. But for the time I was down there, it was ⁓ a very ⁓ controlled effort, and it got more controlled as time went on. As more assets come in, as more money's available, as more people come in, it got more and more controlled until you had a viable conclusion, which was the full recovery and the full emptying out of. what eventually was considered the pit. And I hate the word ground zero. That's a that's a media thing. It was either the pit or the trade center. Right. So speaker-0: Was never really referred to as It's it's interesting. So it sounds like you're saying that like the police departments, fire departments, they they handle, you know, the panic situation a little bit better than maybe companies do. Because it seems like a lot of companies or even maybe other government agencies will wait until something terrible happens before they kind of figure it out. So there there's almost like a resistance to organize and and get ready for these things. D you know you have any idea why that is? I mean, shouldn't people be like preparing for these crises beforehand. Sounds like the police department and the fire department, they they've trained they train for these things, right? speaker-1: Y yes, they do. They do. The the military trains for them, the you know, the MTA trains for them, the police department, the fire departments, sanitation trains for them, you know, the these organizations all train for these things. So they have something to fall back on. Most people will look out and they'll say, Well, it never happened before. You're like, Well, okay. Or the the best part is like, you know, ⁓ maintenance, any any time you have maintenance done in a in a facility. ⁓ and there's a budget crisis, one of the first thing you do is cut maintenance. You know? Be like, wait a second, wait second. The maintenance kept this place going and you cut maintenance. Now you have to invest in in stuff later on that because it broke. But like, well it never broke before. Like, well it's broke now. speaker-0: Yeah, just no one's keeping an eye on it, right? speaker-1: And and this is kinda what happens. So you put things you put plans in place and then someone looks around and goes, Why is that necessary? Well the plan is in place because it actually creates the ability to continue movement. You know, part of the repace plan? It stands for primary alternate contingency and emergency. So everybody everyone operates in their primary network. If something goes wrong with primary, you you just quickly switch to the alternate. But a contingency plan is one of those plans that we're like, what ⁓ what keeps us moving forward? You know? So we don't talk about contingency very much. And certainly we don't talk about we don't talk about emergencies as long as the primary and alternate are working. But if you if you go for deep, then you have something to rely on. And quite frankly, if you went If you went three deep and at the primary failed, the ultimate the the ultimate failed and you're on contingency, then you need to come up with another pace plan. You don't wait until the emergency hits and then you go, Well, by the way, I gotta figure this out. I'm like, no, you know. speaker-0: Right. Unfortunately it seems like there's too many organizations like that are doing that. So Yes. ⁓ you know, hopefully foreign consulting can help figure that out for some of these people. speaker-1: I'm sorry, but knowledge is an important thing. And as long as you have the base down, you can't make somebody do something. You can't, but you can certainly expose them to the fact like this is what we see, this is what the fault is, this is where the holes are, this is what we think you need to ⁓ do or needs to be addressed. So let's say we're talking about an ⁓ an organization, we have a we have a company, and they have a they have an issue and say, Well, we looked into it for you. This is our opinion, what's going on? We give them that message. They should be able to take that information and go to their operating people and say, How does this affect us? Or we give them the information. This is how it affects you. And they said how do we incorporate this into our structural life so we have non interrupted continuation or or ⁓ we just continue to move on. speaker-0: So looking back on your career, you know, if you could pass along one like piece of wisdom to your twenty five year old self or s somebody else who's coming in to a leadership position, you know, wha what would that be? speaker-1: I would say two things were ⁓ two things I think are important. One, you understand that you're responsible. There's no way you if you assume responsibility, then you will be a good you'll go leader. If you blame others for what what happens and what goes wrong, you won't. You praise people in in public and you admonish in private. Okay. But you give credit where credit is due and you're the one who's ultimately responsible for what's going on. And the second one I would say is read. Read as much as humanly possible, about as many subjects as humanly possible, and make yourself well read. Get off of the internet. speaker-0: So not necessarily read the internet. Read read other things. speaker-1: Yes. And and quite frankly, if you if you have one opinion, if you have one opinion, then read the other opinion. And I so you have a better understanding what's going on. You don't have to agree with it, but you gotta know what other people are thinking. And the more you read, the smarter you will be over time. speaker-0: Yeah. Knowledge is key. speaker-1: I think so. That's my that's my opinion. speaker-0: This has been great. Thank you, Bob, for taking the time to chat with us today and give us your perspective on emergency management. Thank you all for tuning in to the Decision Advantage.