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Andy Standy - The Unexpected Performance Multiplier x Charles Duhigg · Andy Stanley Sermons

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a
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  Speaker 1: conversation designed to help leaders go further faster Ive Andy
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  Speaker 1: now here's today's podcast episode. Today we're talking about what
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: is often a neglected facet of leadership. And I'll be
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: honest when the when the phrase we're going to talk
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: about in just a few minutes.
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  Speaker 2: The first time I heard it, I thought, oh, brother,
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  Speaker 2: but this this is so important.
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  Speaker 1: And when it's neglected, we pay, and our staff's pay.
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  Speaker 1: And it's actually one of the best predictors of performance,
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  Speaker 1: which was which was surprising to me. Today we're going
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  Speaker 1: to talk about don't roll your eyes psychological safety. And
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  Speaker 1: here's what I know about you. I know we haven't met,
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  Speaker 1: but at some point in your career, psychological safety was
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  Speaker 1: extremely important to you. And depending on where you are
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  Speaker 1: in your organization in terms of org chart, perhaps it
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  Speaker 1: is still very important to you, but perhaps you didn't
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  Speaker 1: have this language for it.
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  Speaker 2: I know that I didn't.
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  Speaker 1: So psychological safety determines whether or not you spoke up
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  Speaker 1: in a meeting.
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  Speaker 2: It determines whether or not you came.
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  Speaker 1: To associate and an associate's defense maybe in a meeting.
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  Speaker 1: It determines how honest you are with the people you
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  Speaker 1: work with and the people you work for. And psychological
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  Speaker 1: safety creates an environment where people are free, and this
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  Speaker 1: is why it's so important for leaders. Psychological safety creates
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  Speaker 1: an environment where people are free to share their initial
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  Speaker 1: thoughts and ideas without fear of retribution, which is so
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  Speaker 1: important to me. But maybe most importantly, and this is
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  Speaker 1: kind of another topic for another day, Where there is
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  Speaker 1: psychological safety, people feel free to bring their end tuition
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  Speaker 1: to the table because, as we've talked about before, intuition
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  Speaker 1: is rarely defensible initially because of the nature of intuition.
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  Speaker 1: And where there's no psychological safety, no one's about to
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  Speaker 1: share ideas they fear they might be pressured to defend.
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  Speaker 1: And the primary way leaders create that kind of safety
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  Speaker 1: is through how we communicate. And today I'm joined by
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  Speaker 1: my friend and author Charles Douhig to talk about this
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  Speaker 1: important topic.
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  Speaker 2: Charles, welcome back to the podcast.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me Andy.
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  Speaker 4: This is such a treat every time I get to
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  Speaker 4: talk to you, so thank you again for having me on.
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  Speaker 1: Well, every time I talk to you, I find myself
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  Speaker 1: wanting to take notes while you talk, and then I
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  Speaker 1: lose track of my script. Anyway, So, for those of
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  Speaker 1: you who don't know, Charles is a Pulitzer Prize winning
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  Speaker 1: reporter and New York Times bestselling author multiple books, including
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  Speaker 1: the Power of Habit, which is when I was introduced
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  Speaker 1: to his work, and its spent over three years on
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  Speaker 1: the New York Times bestsellers lists. Time we were together,
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  Speaker 1: we discussed this latest book, Super Communicator, subtitle how to
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  Speaker 1: Unlock the Secret Language of Connection, and Charles has been
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  Speaker 1: with us for a couple of live events as well,
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  Speaker 1: and he's the real deal and I'm so excited to
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  Speaker 1: have him back. So back in twenty I guess twenty four,
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  Speaker 1: we unpack bits and pieces of your book, Supercommunicators, which
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  Speaker 1: challenge the way that so many leaders think about communication.
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  Speaker 2: But there was a lot we didn't get into.
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  Speaker 1: So today I want to pull, like on one specific
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  Speaker 1: thread from your work in that area that has, as
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  Speaker 1: I set up front, has massive implications for performance and leadership. Again,
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  Speaker 1: as we mentioned at the top, you found in your
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  Speaker 1: research that one of the most powerful drivers of performance
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  Speaker 1: is psychological safety, which is such a soft thing, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's I think it's one of those things that for
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  Speaker 1: some people leaders they.
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  Speaker 2: Just roll their eyes.
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  Speaker 1: But you talk about the relationship between that and leadership,
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  Speaker 1: and I know, again I'm doubling down on this.
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  Speaker 2: Psychological safety sounds a bit like.
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  Speaker 1: An hr AND initiative rather than a performance strategy. But
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  Speaker 1: you suggest that is not the case. So let's just
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  Speaker 1: start there. How do you define psychological safety and relate
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  Speaker 1: that to the importance of leadership.
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  Speaker 4: It's a great question, and honestly, this topic is so
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  Speaker 4: important not only to business leaders, but to family leaders,
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  Speaker 4: to community leaders.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 4: So in psychological safety, it's a cumbersome phrase, right. It
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  Speaker 4: sounds sounds like we're trying to make something that should
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  Speaker 4: be a fifty cent idea into a ten dollars phrase,
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  Speaker 4: and it comes from academics.
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  Speaker 3: But what it really means is that when I.
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  Speaker 4: Feel psychological safety, I feel like I can bring my
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  Speaker 4: full self to work.
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  Speaker 3: Right, I can show up.
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  Speaker 4: And I can go to a meeting and I can
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  Speaker 4: be who I am. And when I feel like I
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  Speaker 4: can bring my full self to work, you're exactly right.
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  Speaker 4: What it unlocks is not only my intuition and my
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  Speaker 4: great ideas.
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  Speaker 3: It unlocks me being able to.
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  Speaker 4: Bring my values to that table, being able to hear
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  Speaker 4: you better because I'm not worrying about what you might
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  Speaker 4: think if I say something in response.
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  Speaker 3: It allows ideas to generate more quickly.
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  Speaker 4: Psychological safety is what we all felt when we belonged
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  Speaker 4: to a team and we just actually looked forward.
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  Speaker 3: To the meetings.
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  Speaker 4: Right, We've all belonged to one team where we saw
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  Speaker 4: it in our calendar and we're like, oh, I don't
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  Speaker 4: want to show up for that. And then we've all
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  Speaker 4: belonged to a team where we see it on our
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  Speaker 4: calendar and we think, oh, I can't wait.
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  Speaker 3: This is going to be great.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's life giving exactly exactly. It generates something for
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  Speaker 4: us rather than some tracts. That is psychological safety. And
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  Speaker 4: when you, as a leader, can create that among your
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  Speaker 4: team members, among your employees, among your community, you are
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  Speaker 4: giving them a gift and you're getting the best work
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  Speaker 4: from them because the.
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  Speaker 2: Best ideas, yeah ideas.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the thought that somebody is sitting in a meeting
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  Speaker 1: with me that I'm leading and they have an idea
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  Speaker 1: and they're sitting there trying to figure out how do
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  Speaker 1: I say this perfectly or how do I get this
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  Speaker 1: out the right way? Or what are people going to think? Ah,
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  Speaker 1: that's a lot to the team. But as the leader,
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  Speaker 1: as the leader is we're about to talk about, it's
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  Speaker 1: really up to me to create a sense where people
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  Speaker 1: feel safe. And again, to be clear, we're not talking
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  Speaker 1: about insecure people. We're just talking about all of us.
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  Speaker 1: Nobody wants to look down, nobody wants to sound stupid.
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  Speaker 1: But the last thing we want or for us not
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  Speaker 1: to give permission or create an environment where those ideas surface.
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  Speaker 1: So in the book, and we might have talked about
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  Speaker 1: this a little bit, but I want to go back
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  Speaker 1: to it even if we did. In Supercommunicators, you talk
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  Speaker 1: about the matching principle that in every conversation, every conversation
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  Speaker 1: is either practical, emotional, or somewhat about identity. And if
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  Speaker 1: we fail to match, we disconnect and we miss each
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  Speaker 1: other completely. And I do remember us talking about this
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  Speaker 1: a little bit because I thought about my kids.
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  Speaker 2: So talk just a little bit about that principle.
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  Speaker 4: Is it relates Yes, no, absolutely, And there's a great
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  Speaker 4: demonstration of this because there are a handful of things
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  Speaker 4: that leaders can do to create psychological safety, and one
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  Speaker 4: of them, as you pointed out, is this matching. Right,
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  Speaker 4: if you go into a meeting and you know it's
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  Speaker 4: going to be tough meeting because you guys are talking
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  Speaker 4: about budgets, and someone on your team starts the meeting
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  Speaker 4: by saying, look, you know, I want to go over
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  Speaker 4: the numbers because I'm just I'm really anxious because if
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  Speaker 4: we don't get this right, we're going to have to
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  Speaker 4: do layoffs, and I do not want to lay off
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  Speaker 4: any of my people, like these are people who are
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  Speaker 4: important to me. Now, in a situation like that, you
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  Speaker 4: might be thinking, oh, we should have a practical conversation, right,
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  Speaker 4: we're talking about the budget, we're talking about numbers. But
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  Speaker 4: if you listen closely, what that employee just told you
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  Speaker 4: is that they're feeling anxious. That for them, this is
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  Speaker 4: at first an emotional conversation. They need to know that
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  Speaker 4: you hear their anxiety, you hear their emotions, and until
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  Speaker 4: you actually match that and show them that you are
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  Speaker 4: hearing that, you're not going to be able to talk
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  Speaker 4: about the practicalities. You're not going to be able to
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  Speaker 4: talk about the numbers, because every time you bring up
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  Speaker 4: a number, they're.
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  Speaker 3: Going to respond with something emotional.
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  Speaker 4: And so in a situation like that, and we've all
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  Speaker 4: been in situations like this as a leader, where it
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  Speaker 4: seems like it should be a practical conversation, but our
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  Speaker 4: employee is clearly reacting motion. What we have to do
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  Speaker 4: is we have to acknowledge those emotions. We have to say, Look,
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  Speaker 4: I hear what you're saying that you're concerned, and I
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  Speaker 4: want you to know I am also concerned, like I
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  Speaker 4: care about these people. I hear you saying that your
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  Speaker 4: values are stronger than your desired just to make profits.
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  Speaker 4: But we also have to do the right thing for
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  Speaker 4: the company, and I want you to know I'm shoulder
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  Speaker 4: to shoulder with you in the emotions that we're going
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  Speaker 4: to have to go through to get the right budget. Now,
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  Speaker 4: if you don't mind, let's dive into the numbers and
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  Speaker 4: see what they say.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 4: In other words, do I have your permission to move
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  Speaker 4: from an emotional conversation to a practical conversation. When you
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  Speaker 4: do that, it changes everything because that employee says to themselves, oh,
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  Speaker 4: I know, I know that my boss is listening to
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  Speaker 4: me and I know that even if we're talking about
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  Speaker 4: the numbers that they understand, there's an emotional aspect of
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  Speaker 4: this for me that we have to discuss.
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  Speaker 2: So some of us are naturally good at that, and
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  Speaker 2: some of us.
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  Speaker 1: It never processes our mind because I have an agenda
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  Speaker 1: in front of me, and Zach is ticking, And I
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  Speaker 1: don't think anybody that would hear what you just said
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  Speaker 1: would say that's not important. But it is so hard
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  Speaker 1: sometimes in a professional environment to take a deep breath
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  Speaker 1: and allow that to be expressed and then to pause
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  Speaker 1: and value it before just moving on.
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  Speaker 2: So absolutely talk a little bit.
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  Speaker 1: In my notes, I wrote the question, so psychological safety
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  Speaker 1: is created.
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  Speaker 2: Through the way we communicate.
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  Speaker 1: The next question, of course, is what kind of communication
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  Speaker 1: actually signal safety? And you just gave us an illustration,
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  Speaker 1: and part of that is an illustration of vulnerability, vulnerability
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  Speaker 1: in the sense of, oh, yeah, I feel that as well.
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  Speaker 2: What else? What else do we do?
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  Speaker 4: So there's there's two main things that a leader can
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  Speaker 4: do that are very very tactical to create psychological safety
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  Speaker 4: and to remind themselves to have that kind of conversation,
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  Speaker 4: Because you're right, most business leaders got to be business
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  Speaker 4: leaders because they are good at following the agenda, right,
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  Speaker 4: they're good again, stuff done executing. So the first thing
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  Speaker 4: that we know create psychological safety, particularly in a team
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  Speaker 4: or in a meeting, is what's known as equality in
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  Speaker 4: conversational turn taking.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, say that again, quality.
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  Speaker 4: In conversational turn taking. And again that's a fancy phrase.
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  Speaker 4: What it basically means is everyone in the room is
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  Speaker 4: speaking up. Now, that doesn't mean people have to speak
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  Speaker 4: up an equal measure, right, It's not saying the same
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  Speaker 4: number of words. But it does mean if you're in
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  Speaker 4: a meeting, you see someone and they haven't said anything
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  Speaker 4: for the last ten minutes, and they haven't said anything
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  Speaker 4: in the whole meeting, and you stop me and say, Jim,
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  Speaker 4: I'm just curious, Like I know that you probably have
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  Speaker 4: some strong thoughts on this. Can you share with us
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  Speaker 4: what you're thinking. When you draw them out and you
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  Speaker 4: get everyone to speak up, what you're going to hear
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  Speaker 4: is that, first of all, they feel like they're present
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  Speaker 4: and that they're being listened to, right. But secondly, when
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  Speaker 4: you do that, you're going to start hearing those code words.
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  Speaker 4: You're going to start hearing someone say I'm anxious, I'm
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  Speaker 4: worried or the thing that would make me I really
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: really happy is or I'm really excited about that. When
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  Speaker 4: we start hearing those words that are emotional words, it
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  Speaker 4: should be a little trigger in our head to say, Okay,
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  Speaker 4: take a second and just dive into that a little
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  Speaker 4: bit more. It doesn't have to be more than thirty
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  Speaker 4: seconds that we're spending on it, but let's just dive
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  Speaker 4: in to show them that we're hearing what they're actually saying,
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  Speaker 4: that there's some emotion here that's as important for them
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  Speaker 4: as the agenda. The second tactic that we know create
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  Speaker 4: psychological safety is what's known as ostentatious listening. And ostentatious
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  Speaker 4: listening is great because what it means is that as
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  Speaker 4: a leader, if I prove to you that I'm listening,
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  Speaker 4: if I say, okay, Andy, here's what I heard you
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  Speaker 4: just say tell me if I'm getting this right, or
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: I say, you know, Andy, you brought up this really
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  Speaker 4: interesting idea just a couple of minutes ago, and it
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  Speaker 4: made me think of something. As a leader, if I
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  Speaker 4: prove that I'm listening, everyone in the room will start
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  Speaker 4: imitating me, and we'll start listening to each other more closely.
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  Speaker 4: And the reason why this is so powerful is because
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  Speaker 4: it is a reminding function. If you say, you know,
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  Speaker 4: I'm really anxious about having to do layoffs, and I
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: ostentatiously listen to you, I say, you know, what I
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: hear you saying is that is that this is causing
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  Speaker 4: you some anxiety that you're worried about what's going to happen.
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  Speaker 4: I don't even have to understand your emotions. I'm just
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  Speaker 4: repeating back what I heard I say to prove that
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  Speaker 4: I'm listening, and it has the same effect.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, if I feel like you understand me, I'm just
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  Speaker 1: going to be more open in general. And I think
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  Speaker 1: I do a good job at this. You'd have to
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: ask the other people listening into this conversation. But one
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  Speaker 1: of the things I'm just sensitive to is in a
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  Speaker 1: you know, if they're seven or eight or nine people
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  Speaker 1: in around a table, there are people who are not listening.
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  Speaker 1: They're just waiting to have their turn to say something.
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  Speaker 1: And when I sense that somebody finishes and the next
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: person just jumps in immediately and moves on, that intuitively
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  Speaker 1: bothers me and I Often I don't know if it's
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: a good habit or not, And I have to be
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: careful with my body language when I do this, but
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  Speaker 1: sometimes I'll kind of wave them off and say wait, wait, wait,
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  Speaker 1: wait just a minute, and I will go back to
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: the person that just finished, because I feel like they're
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: what they just said is about to be discounted because
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: instead of somebody building on or acknowledging it, they're just
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: moving on to the next thing they want to say.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: And so I think intuitively, I'm pretty good at at
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: again hitting the pause and say wait, wait before you
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: go on. So, Bill, what you're saying is to your point,
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  Speaker 1: kind of reiterating to let him know, Okay, I know
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  Speaker 1: the next person is ready to move this on, but
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  Speaker 1: I want you to know I heard you.
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  Speaker 2: Now let's take this on to the next person.
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  Speaker 1: So there's just some of those skills over time that
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  Speaker 1: I think is part of what you're talking about.
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely, absolutely, And we've all been on the other side
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  Speaker 4: of that, right. Yes, we say something and we thought
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  Speaker 4: about it a lot, and someone says, okay, but here's
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: my idea, and they just.
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  Speaker 3: Right exactly and someone.
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  Speaker 2: Still you don't know if you were heard exactly.
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  Speaker 4: And when and when the leader of that meeting stops
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  Speaker 4: and says, Actually, before we move on, let's just let's
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: just make sure we're hearing what Bill is saying here.
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: This seems important, it feels wonderful. Yeah, which, actually, can
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: I ask you a question? So I imagine a bunch
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: of people come in to your organization and this might
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: be the first time that they're working in a faith
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: based organization. They might have come from the professional world, yep,
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  Speaker 4: and they might be wondering, like, what the culture is?
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  Speaker 4: How do you create psychological safety? How do you transmit
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: the culture of the church that creates the psychological safety
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: for new employees?
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  Speaker 1: So here's what I wrote down, because you did ask
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: me this question ahead of time. We do a new
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: staff orientation like a lot of companies do, and in
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: my part of the new staff and orientation, I talk
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: specifically about the value of their fresh eyes and their
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: fresh ears and our organization. And I say to them,
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  Speaker 1: the longer you're in a climate or a culture, the
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: less aware you.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: Are of it.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: And I've been in our culture for thirty years. I'm
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: completely unaware of our culture because I've adjusted. But as
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: new employees, you bring fresh eyes and fresh ears, and
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: we want to know what you see and we want
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: to know what you hear.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: So then they get a list of.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Questions from our office after they're with us three months,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: where they are evaluating their experience with us so interesting.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: And then a year, after they've been with us a year,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: they get another list of questions. And then after a
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: year they're part of the problem, right, they become part
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: of the problem, but they're part of the culture.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: So and because I.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Emphasize that, it's my way of saying hey, and then
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I say this, I say, look, nobody is more concerned
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: about the success of this organization, in this organization other
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: than me.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was part of the team that started it.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: So and then I say, when you hear the little
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: voice whispering to you, they don't care, they don't want
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: to know, they're never going to change. I need you
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: to ignore that voice, because I'm telling you we want
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to know and we do care. And change may not
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: happen as quickly is you think it should, but I
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: promise you we want to hear. And so these questions
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: that we're going to send you, it's your opportunity to
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: tell us what you see in here so we.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Can make the organization better.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: And it's so important to me that new staff hear
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: that from me that basically, don't try to read our
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: minds and don't take what happened in your last job
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: or the last marketplace, the situation you had, don't bring
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: that here.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: We really do care.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: And then we do. And again, a lot of companies
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: do this. We do staff surveys every year, and one
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: of the things I say is, we really would love
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: for you to put your name on the survey because
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: we want to be able to follow up. You're not
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: going to get in trouble, and we're looking for trends,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: and this is your way to help us make the
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: organization better.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: So and again, everybody's different.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Everybody has a different level of personal security and past
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: hurt and previous job experience. But to the degree that
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I can convince people we really do want this to
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: be a great eight place to work, and consequently, we
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: can't make it better without your input. There's no bad
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: information and there's no bad perspectives. We sincerely want to know.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: I think the more we can go back to that
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: over and over and then and then actually reward it,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: respond answer those questions, and on multiple occasions through the years,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: I'll get one of those three month evaluations. Somebody will
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: my assistant will say Andy, I think you need to
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: read this one. And I will say, hey, I'm not
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: sure who this person is. You know, they're in a
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: different campus or you know, I don't remember them. There
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: were twenty people in the room, and I'll ask them
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: to come in. Of course they think they're in the
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: principal's office. I'm like, no, no, no, you're you're not
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: in trouble. I think we're in trouble. And I want
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: you to help me understand what you meant when you
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: wrote this, because I think you're onto something and we
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: want to make it better. And here's what I discovered
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: years ago. That individual is going to share that conversation.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: They're going to go back because they've our He told somebody, Hey,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I'm going to Andy's office, you know, pray for me,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: and I don't know if that yeah, And so people
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: are going to say, well, what happened, and it'll be like, well,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: he read my evaluation and wanted to know more about it. So,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a bit of symbolic leadership in that,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: But we really do want to care, and I think
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: this at least leans toward creating some psychological safety.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: So oh, absolutely, absolutely, And what I loved about what
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: you just said. And I think it's worth noting symbolic
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: leadership is leadership right when we do things because we
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: want other people to notice it.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: If that's what a leader does.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: A leader transmits through their actions what our values are
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: and what our beliefs are, and what our culture is.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: And we must I think it's okay, and people take
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: this wrong way. We must be seen doing good.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: It's not just yet we need to do good, but
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: there's a sense in which, for the right reason, we
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: need to need to be seen doing good because to
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: the point of this conversation, it communicates, hey, this is
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: a safe place they're listening. No, it gets in trouble
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: for telling the truth or pointing out something that you
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: know they're concerned about.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: And I think he used a really important word, which
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: is we reward, right, We reward the people who bring
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: us the bad news or the disappointing news, right as humans,
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: and we know this from the power of habit right
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: as humans, we do what brings us rewards. It's just
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: our brain is literally programmed that when we get into
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: a reward from a behavior, we we that behavior gets
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: easier and easier and easier, and it's hard. It's hard
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: to criticize your boss, right, it's hard to say, hey,
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: look I love working here, but here's this thing that like,
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: I don't think we're doing right and striving me crazy.
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: You're worried you're going to offend someone when we do
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: something hard. Our brain is saying, ah, this, this doesn't
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: I'm worried about getting punished.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: I'm not even thinking a reward.
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: And when you step in and you say to that person,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: thank you for bringing this to me. This is one
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: of the most important things you could have said to me.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: And then you say to the whole organization, I want
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: you to know. You know, this person was brave enough
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: to bring this to me and it really helped. What
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: you're doing at that moment is you are building the
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: culture right because the words don't matter, it's what you
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: do the really matters.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the goal.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: That's why when you said you wanted to talk about
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: this again years ago, I may have discounted this as
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: again like an HR thing, or it's just too soft,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: But it is extremely important.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: So yeah, how often when you do those surveys.
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: How often are you getting surprised by what people are
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: saying three months in.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Well, the good thing about it is we have a
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: director of staff culture here who that's their full time job,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: and he meets every single new employee, every single intern,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: and so we're able to take this information. And because
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: we have eight churches on the north side of the city,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: we're looking for trends. If something shows up two or
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: three times at a campus, we know we have a
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: campus problem.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: If it shows up two or three times.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Across the organization, we know we have a central problem.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: So this really does help us really monitor our staff culture.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: So we pay very close to.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Ten to those things. And generally speaking, it's kind of
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: the same thing. It's communication. We wish we don't feel
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: like we're communicated with enough, and we think this is
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: a good thing.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: People are looking for advancement.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: They want to know how do I advance in this
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: organization and then to be able to go back and say,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: we heard you were working on that. Here's an answer,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: or we don't have an answer the other I don't
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: know if this fits or not.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: But the church I came.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Out of thirty years ago, I had no place to
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: take my frustration.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: So I took them home.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: I took them home and at some point Sander's like,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: I can't help you with that. I'm like, yeah, but
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I don't want a gossip.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: So one of the first.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Things we did when we started the organization we just
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: had our thirtieth anniversary, is we set up a system.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: We call them staff coaches back then. We call them
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: staff advisors now. And this is another thing we talked
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: to our new employees about. We're like, look, we don't
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: want you to take your frustrations home. So here's a
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: list of staff advisors. They're at multiple campus is. These
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: are super mature people and whatever you say to them
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: will be kept in confidence, and they'll either coach you
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: through how to approach your manager or somebody else in
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: the organization. They may go with you to approach somebody.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: This is the way I say it.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: When you find yourself driving home day after day having
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: the same imaginary conversations with the same person, let us
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: help diffuse them, because you know, sometimes you just don't
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: know what to do, and sometimes people don't feel safe
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: approaching somebody, or they have information and they're like, oh wow,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I think I see something nobody else sees what do
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I do with this? So we have built into our
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: culture these staff advisors and it is one hundred percent confidential.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: And then again we track what are the type not
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: the people or the details, but what are the types
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: of things that our staff advisors are helping people walk
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: through again, circle back around, and if we can address
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: those things systematically, we do.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: So those are just some of the things.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: That's really really smart.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: And what I particularly like about that is there's a
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: bunch of research and and I'm going to use this
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: word gossip because you're right, most gossip is bad, but
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: there's a bunch of research looking at office gossip. And
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: what they mean by office gossip is they mean the
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: things you say to each other outside of the meeting,
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: right when I'm when we're when we're having lunch together,
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: right we around the water cooler, when we're car pulling together.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: The things we say to each other.
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: It turns out those are more influential on a company's
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: culture than what the CEO says about the culture.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: Which makes sense right.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Because it does. Yeah, there's the trickle down.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: It's the trickle down, and there's a bunch of unwritten
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: rules when someone says like, can you believe that so
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: and so did such and such, You start to learn
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: to your think to yourself, oh, like, the culture of
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: this place where I work is that we.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: Don't do that thing.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: And and when gossip, when when this kind of information
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: sharing becomes gossip, it can be really really damaging.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: But when it has channels, because we all have that instinct,
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: we all.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: Sometimes going a little bit crazy. Sometimes we we just
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: need to just vent to someone. When we have channels
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: to do that, where that person is trained and mature
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: enough and ready, and they have us infrastructure around them
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: where they can say like, I can absorb some of
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: your inkst right now, and I can help you off
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: set and if there's a problem, I can help you
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: solve it. That means that we get all the benefits
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: of office gossip without the gossip.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Right and so we have created a safe pathway for that.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Now there are people who just feel like, oh, that
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: means you know, to ask a staff advisor means I'm weak,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: there's something wrong with me, And we try to reiterate note,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to save your spouse from having to help
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: you solve a problem.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: They can't.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I've been there I get that, so we encourage people
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: to take advantage of that. The other thing that years ago,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I did a talk for our staff that has become
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: something we go back to over and over where I
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: talk about the importance of trust and I set it
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: up as the contrast between trust and suspicion. Basically, when
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: there's a gap between what a person expects and what
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: a person experiences, we choose what to put.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: In that gap. We don't think we do, but we
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: have a choice.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I can choose to trust, I can choose I can
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: choose to assume the best, or I can choose to
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: assume the worst. And so one of the other things
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: I talked to new staff about is, look, trust is
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: the currency of relationship, and we are asking you to
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: stretch as far as you can to trust the people
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: that you work with.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: And when you can't trust anymore, then we talk about that.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: But this whole idea of choosing to give people a
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: generous explanation. You know she's late, Well, that doesn't mean
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: she's irresponsible. If we can get in the habit of
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: creating a generous explanation for people, you know, a culture
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: of trust is a culture where people again feel safe.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: That principle is so central.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: In fact, when I do newer employee orientations, Billy Phoenix,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: who's our director of culture, his question oftentimes is, Andy,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: what's the one thing you want new staff to to know?
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: And that's what I talk about.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: I said, I want you to get in the habit
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: of trusting the people you work with and trusting us,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: and here's what to do when you can't. But if
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: you can imagine how much better this culture will be
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: if we choose to trust, to give each other a
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: generous explanation, I.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: Agree one hundred percent.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: And it gets to the fact that sometimes we misunderstand
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: what trust is because we think trust means, oh, that
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: person's going to agree with me, that person has my back,
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: that person's going to back me up.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: That's not trust. Trust means.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: If you disagree with me, if you think I'm on
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: the wrong path, that you are going to take the
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: time to explain to me why you believe what you believe,
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: and you're going to convey to me that you have
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: my best interests at heart. Yeah, but you're trying to
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: make me more successful. And so if to trust someone
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: does not mean that we agree with them all the time,
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: It doesn't mean that we avoid saying the hard things.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: To trust means that we say I'm going to say
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: the hard thing, but I want you to know at
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: the end of the day, I am rooting for you.
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I'm telling you that because I want you to succeed. Yeah,
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: it's incredibly important.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I need to ask you about this because I
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: find myself doubting you, and I don't want to doubt you,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: So exactly explain this behavior to me. You know, I'm
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: just going to give you the benefit of the doubt,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: but I'm at a point where I need an explanation
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: and that's a better approach, even if the person proves
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: to be untrustworthy.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: So yeah, no, absolutely, all.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Right, So do you want to talk about looping for understanding?
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Sure?
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So when we talk about this ostentatious listening, it
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: can be hard sometimes, right, It can feel very unnatural, right,
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: particularly when we're in the hardest conversations, like when you
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: and I disagree about something, when we're having a fight,
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: when it's a really heigh stakes conversation, because like you know,
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: someone might win, someone might lose, and it could have
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: real consequences at that moment. This ostentatious listening. Proving we're
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: listening becomes even more important, but it also becomes harder.
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: And so there's this technique that people have worked out
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: called hoping for understanding. That's just something you can fall
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: back on really easily, and it has three steps. Step
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: one is I'm going to ask you a question. Instead
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: of starting by telling you what I think, I'm going
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: to start by asking you a question. And hopefully it's
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: going to be a question that is open ended, that
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: gives you a chance to talk about your values, or
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: your beliefs, or your experiences why this thing is so
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: important to you. And I'm just going to let you talk.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: I'm just going to listen. Then when you've answered the question,
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: here's what I'm gonna do. This is step two. I'm
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: going to repeat back in my own words what I
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: heard you say. And the key here is I'm not
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: trying to mimic you, right, I'm not trying to say
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: the same words that you you said. What I'm trying
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: to do is I'm trying to prove to you that
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: not only I heard about I heard what you said.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: But I've been thinking about it.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: So I'm gonna say, Andy, what I heard you say
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: was this thing? And it sounds like one of the
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: issues that for you is that you really care about
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: your employees and you want them to feel to feel
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: like they belong. If I'm going this right, you tell
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: them that you want them to assume the best of
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: all of their coworkers, assume the best intent. Right. What
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: I've done right there is I've proven to you not
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: only am I listening, but I'm paying attention on processing it.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: That's step two.
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: Then step three is before I say anything else I say,
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: let me just ask you, did I get that right?
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: Do I understand you? Because what I'm doing in that
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: moment is I'm asking you for permission to acknowledge that
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: I was listening. And one of the things that we
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: know about human psychology and how our brains are set
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: up is that if you acknowledge that I was listening
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: to you, you become more likely to listen to me
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: in return. It's a basic instinct of social reciprocity that
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: all of us have. So these three steps, ask a question,
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: repeat back what you heard the person say, Ask them
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: if you got it right. This loop for understanding is
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: the thing that makes the other person feel listened to
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: particularly in the hardest conversation.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Wow, and that's I'm telling you.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: I got adult kids who are all married, and this
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: is so important for parenting for sure. Right, Yeah, you
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: know there's no equality parent child. You know, it's two
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: different relationships. It's just so easy to power up in
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: those relationships.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, And my kids, I'm I'm your kids are a
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: little bit older than mine, so I'm curious if you have.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Any tips on this.
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: My kids come to me, they're both teenagers, and they
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: bring up something that's bothering them, and my instinct is
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: to try and solve it for them, to say, oh, here,
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: here's what you should do, like, here's here's the answer.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: And that's not the right thing to do, but I'm
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: their dad, right, I want to I want to save
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: them agony. But the right thing to do is to
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: ask a question. You know, when when he said that
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: to you, how did that make you feel?
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: Because then what not only am I what am I
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: doing is I'm showing them that I'm actually paying attention.
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: I'm also training them how to solve problems on their own,
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: which is of course, as parents are most.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Important, that is the most important job.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: So so this kind of senses over this next question
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: and super communicators. You made this statement and we did
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: talk about this a little bit that super communicators ask
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: ten to twenty times more questions than the average person,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: and we just kind of cover that a little bit.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: But you say that's in an effort to uncover values, beliefs, motivations,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: what's really going on?
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: You know, that's a lot of questions.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: It's a lot of questions. It's a lot of questions.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: But now now that you look for it, you'll notice
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: that your favorite communicators do it. And some of those
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: questions that they ask are things like they're just invitations
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: like oh would you think about that?
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: Or oh did you see that movie? Did you see
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: that show on TV last night? They're just inviting you
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: into the conversation.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Gotcha.
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: But there's these other questions that are more powerful, which
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: are known within again within psychology as deep questions. And
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: a deep question, as I mentioned, is something that asks
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: us to discuss our values, our beliefs, or our experiences.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: And that can sound kind of intimidating to people, right
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: like if I just met you, I'm at a party
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: and I'm making small talk with you, Am I going
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: to ask ask you about your values, beliefs, and experiences.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: But it's as simple as if you meet someone at
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: their party and you say, oh, what do you do
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: for a living and they say, O, I'm a doctor.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: You could ask them, oh really, what hospital do you
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: work at? Or you could ask them.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: Oh really, what made you decide to become a doctor?
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: Right that second question, that second question is an invitation
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: to talk about values or beliefs or experiences, because I
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: guarantee you that person's going to say something like, you know,
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: when I was a kid, I saw my dad get sick,
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: and I always wanted to be a healer, or you know,
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: like I just love the job because because when I
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: go in every day, I get to help people. Now
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: they're telling us something about who they really are. And
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: those questions, those deep questions, what's powerful about them is
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: that not only have I allowed someone to bring their
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: whole self to this conversation, not only am I creating
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: that psychological safety we talked about, but it also allows
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: me to reciprocate because the most natural thing on earth
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: is to say, oh, really, that's why you became a doctor.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: You know, when I was young, I saw my uncle
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: get arrested. And that's why I became a lawyer. I
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: wanted to be someone who fought fought for the little guy.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: Now suddenly we're having a real conversation. Yeah, and it's
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: not because either of us asked something really personal or
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: really deep. But we asked a question that invited the
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: other person to say something real. And this is what
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: supercommunicators do, is they ask deep questions. And one of
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: the things I've noticed from spending time with you is
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: that you very naturally and casually asked deep questions, which
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: I think as a man of faith, there's probably some
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: training there vocationally to be prepared.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: To desk with questions, but it just feels so good.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: It makes the other person feel like you're someone who
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: cares about them.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: So let me tell you a quick story about that.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you the first time I remember encountering this,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: and it had a profound impact on me. There's a
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: pastor in Texas. His name is Chuck Swindall. I don't
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: know if you've heard of Chuck. Chuck had just retired.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: I think he's ninety. When I was in seminary forty
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: something years ago. I guess Chuck Swindall, who wrote a
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: gazillion books. You know, he's the hero, came to speak
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: at our seminary and he spoke in our chapel. When
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: he finished, he stepped down at the front and students
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: all we lined up. We just you know, he's a hero.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: And my dad is also was also a famous pastor.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: So I grew up with, you know, front row seat
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: for this dynamic when people would meet someone famous, they
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: don't know what to say, and you know they're nervous.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: So I got literally, I got in the back of
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: the lines. It's probably forty five guys that lined up
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: to shake Chucks Wendall's hand. So I waited to the
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: very end and just watched and listened and listened and
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: listened and listened. So I now I get up there
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: with my buddy Larry. We're the last two, literally the
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: last two.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I know he's tired. He's just spoke for forty minutes.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: He just spoke to you know, harm men and women
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: in lime and Chucks Wendall asked us, where are we from?
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Why did we come to this school? He did exactly
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: what you're talking about. And here's a famous person asking
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: me questions about me. And before I knew it, I'm
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: doing too much of the talking, which I had decided
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't do because I'd seen people do that with
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: my dad, But he's so I believe he was so sincere.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: I've never forgotten that. It is not intuitive for me,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: but that conversation forty something years ago had a profound
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: impact on me. As I think about when we're and
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: all of us have people in our lives who, you know,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: they have to look up to us, either because we're
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: their boss, their manager, we're the older or the granddad,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: you know, whatever that is.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: But when a.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: Person who we view that has an elevated status expresses
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: personal interest in us, it is so powerful, it is,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: and you find yourself saying things or confessing things, or
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: acknowledging things that surprise you.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: I'll never forget that conversation.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: In so many times when I'm in a hurry, or
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: somebody interrupts me or comes up to me with one
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: of my kids, and I'm in a retail outlet somewhere,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I just remember the power of those few short minutes
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: with Chuck Swindahl and I It profoundly impacted me.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: So that's that's where it began.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: It's like someone turns on the sun and shines it up,
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: shines it.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: That's a great analogy.
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: Yes, And what I love is that now that, now
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: that you're on the other side of that equation, you
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: know that Chuck probably was so thankful that you answered
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: those questions because he says the same thing over and
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: over and over again, right, Like, it's not fun to
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: tell my story of my ideas forty different times. What's
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: fun is to hear about you, to learn about why
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: you're at the seminary, what brought you here.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: It's inspiring. Yeah, I love that.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: And going back to the point of conversation. Here, I
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: am in front of somebody who's very intimidating, who I
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: want to impress, who I really want not to say
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: something dumb, And I immediately felt so safe because he
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: did exactly what you said. He asked those deeper questions
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: and then he let Larry and I talk and.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: Okay, so can I ask you something on this, which
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: is because we've been talking a lot about say, I
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: imagine that there are times with your employees that you
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: have to have conversations that are hard conversations. Maybe you
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: have to tell someone like this position isn't working out.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: You're not doing the job that I was at the
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: quality I was hoping. Yeah, when you're in those tough
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: conversations and you know that it's going to it's going
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: to feel unsafe to some degree because it's just tough.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: What do you do in that conversation to make.
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: It as easy for yourself and for the other person
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: and make it as safe as possible.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I've gotten in the habit of assuming, and it kind
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: of goes back to what we teach assuming that everything
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: everybody does makes perfect sense to them. So if it
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to me, there's something I don't know,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: so I just try to start there. I mean, you've
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: done this, or you've done it four times or so
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: help me. You know you're a smart person, you're a
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: rational person, So help me understand why you do this,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: because there may be something I'm missing because this doesn't
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: make sense to me, but I know it makes sense
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: to you. So I'm gonna again, I'm just assuming the best.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: But there's something I don't understand. So if it's a
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: situation where I can begin that way to acknowledge, I
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: don't think you're bad. I don't think you're crazy. I
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: don't think you're incompetent. I just don't understand this behavior.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: That's an on ramp. And again, sometimes people explain it
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, actually, maybe you're doing the right thing.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, seriously, I mean sometimes I just don't know.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: But beyond that.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: To the degree that culturally, we have over and over
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: and over expressed and created an environment where we do
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: want to hear from you, We do want you to succeed,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: We do want you to be here long term. As
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: I say to our new employees, I want this to
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: be the best job you ever have. When you retire
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: from whatever you do, I want you to look back
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: at your time in our organization and say, you know what,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: I did a lot of things in my life. That
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: was the best organization I ever worked with. That was
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: the best culture I ever worked in. And then I
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: said to them, because of what we do, and I said,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: I'm not talking about Sunday morning that part. I'm talking
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: about the Monday through Friday part. I want this to
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: be the best place you've ever worked. Help us create that.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: So I think to the degree that we reiterate those
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: things over and over and over, the staff surveys all
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: the stuff. When it comes time for me in particular
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: or us to have a hard conversation with somebody, hopefully
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: we have laid the groundwork for them to know we
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: really do care. We care about you, we want you
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: to succeed here. But we've got to talk about stuff.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: And you can appreciate this, even if you have to
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: imagine it in our world when we confront.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Somebody and their job is at stake.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Not only is their job at stake, oftentimes where they
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: attend church is at Oh yeah, it is very difficult
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: to let somebody go on Friday, and the average person
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: then shows up at church on Sunday to get some comfort,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they're facing the weekend and
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: they have to decide can I I go back to
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: the very place, even though you know the church service
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: is different than maybe their job during the week. It
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: is very complicated for someone to lose a job at
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: their church.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: It is so difficult.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: So we definitely factor that into how we do things,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: our approach to things, and in many cases people work
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: through it. They show back up in a few weeks
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: and hey, that was my job, but this is my
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: church for other people.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: It's more difficult, so it's it's never fun. You know that.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: What I really appreciate that is what I hear you saying,
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: and tell me if I'm getting this right, is that
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: when you go into these conversations, you acknowledge to yourself
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: and kind of to the other person that there is
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: this power deferential that you want to move beyond. Because
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: the truth of the matter is exactly what you just said.
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: You're the head of the church. You're the guy who
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: controls controls not only my job, but controls where I
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: feel closest to God.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and my children and my wife or my husband. Yeah, exactly,
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: it's a whole family dynamic.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: And I think when you acknowledge that and say, look,
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: I understand that we're not talking from the same place here.
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: I want us to bring us onto the same plane
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: as much as I can. So I'm going to say
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: to you, look, help me understand.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: How you see the world. You are the expert on this.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: You're the expert on yourself. I am not. You're the
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: one with the power to explain to me how you
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: see the world.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: And the reason why I think this is so powerful
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: is I think about this all the time with my kids.
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: Your kids are older than mine, as I mentioned, minor teenagers,
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: and I think a lot about how do we make
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: this transition from being their parent to being their friend.
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: And I don't want to be their best friend, right,
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: I want them to but I do want to have
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: a relationship with both my boys as we get older,
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: where we are more on an equal plane, because I
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: think that that's just really healthy. That's something that I
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: want for myself selfishly. And I think that part of
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: that is that you have to acknowledge. You can't just
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: will it into being by pretending that the problem doesn't exist.
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: You have to say, look, you are the expert on yourself,
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: I'm not, so help me learn.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: And the earlier you can do that and create that space,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: the better. And I know we're not talking about parenting,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: but here's just one one.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I understand.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: This is something I found parents have a hard time
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: remembering you have a relationship with your You have two sons, right.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Do you have Do you have a relationship with your sons?
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: It is not the same relationship and they are very
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: aware of that, and as dads we become less and
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: less aware of it. It's two completely different relationships. They
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: have a relationship with somebody who's holding all the cards.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: You have a relationship with someone of whose cards you're holding.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: And of course, the goal is to one day to
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: have a healthy adult relationship with your sons. And what
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: I tell parents all the time is, look, especially during
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: middle school and high school, you have to stay in
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: the parent seat. Don't let your teenagers bait you out
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: of the parent seat, because when you get out of
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: the parent seat, things get confusing. And the best preparation
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: for that healthy adult relationship is to remember, we have
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: a relationship. It's not the same relationship, but one day
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: there's going to be far more equity.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: And now we're in that season.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Our kids are thirty years old, thirty two, thirty three
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: years old. But wow, I had to remind myself of
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: that so often, because the goal is exactly what you
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: just said. I want to have a healthy adult relationship
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: with my kids someday.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: So yeah, good luck, that's good luck.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: That's really helpful. Thank you.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Knock on, no, no, But this conversation of psychological safety,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, and you know this, there are so many
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: kids who are in homes where there's no psychological safety
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: with their parents, so they hide everything.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: They lie.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: They feel like I've got to lie and hide in
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: order to survive what's happening with my family, and that's
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: a terrible burden to put on kids. So everything we've
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: talked about, I think translates to what's happening in marriage
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: and with our kids.
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: So I absolutely agree because the truth of the matter is,
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: I mean, we are talking about business leadership, but the
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: type of leader that we are at work is also
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: the type of leader we are at home. It's the
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: type of leader that we have with our relationship, with
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: our spouse and our community. And I think that sometimes
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: we do a disservice to how important work is to say, oh,
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: there's a work me and.
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: There's a non work me.
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: Because the truth of matter is, some of the most
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: important things that I do are at work, and if
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: I can take those lessons that I can bring them home,
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: I'm becoming a better person.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: It's the same me no matter where I am.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: I tell parents, I say, look, your greatest contribution to
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: the world may not be something you do.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: It may be someone you raise. So keep that in
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: mind whenever. Okay, So unfortunately we're out of time, but
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: I just love talking to you.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: I wish we lived a sure it'd be so fun
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: to hang out. Enjoyed this conversation. So to all of
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: our listeners, I want to thank you for joining us
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: and invite you to check out Charles' latest book, Super Communicators,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. We've touched
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: on some of it. We touched on some of it
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: last time, but there is so much there. And again,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: I communicate for a living, and I think this is
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: one of the best books, maybe the best book I've
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: ever read, on communication, because what he talks about in
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: terms of interpersonal relationships and communication, it works in public
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: communication as well.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: And be sure to check.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Out the Andy Stanley dot com website where you can
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: download the Leadership Podcast application guide that includes a summary
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: of our discussion plus some questions for reflection, either for
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: you personally or for your entire work group. And join
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: us next week for our Reverb episode. This is where
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: Susie and I dig a little bit deeper into this
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: topic and we talk about Charles without him in the room.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: You're not going to want to miss that. Thanks once
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: again for joining us on the Andy Stanley Leadership pop
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: CASP