Latest / The Photography & Video Show Podcast / 18: David duChemin on connection, comedy and wonder; new hybrid lenses and drones plus The Week Junior Science + Nature competition winners

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18: David duChemin on connection, comedy and wonder; new hybrid lenses and drones plus The Week Junior Science + Nature competition winners · The Photography & Video Show Podcast

• 0:11
  David McClelland: Hello and welcome to the Photography and Video Show Podcast, your monthly fix of developing camera news and stories from the frontline of photography and video.
• 0:22
  David McClelland: It's November 2024.
• 0:24
  David McClelland: I'm David McClelland, and coming up this month, we speak with photographer and adventurer David DeCemin about his work making photographs with grizzly bears, his former career as a comedian, and a near-fatal accident on the job that helped shape his philosophy as a photographer.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: I pursue wonder.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: I have over the last few years realized that it is the wonder and the experience of that that I am in pursuit of.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: To be in pursuit of something that's bigger than myself, that is, you know, yes, there is an encounter and there is a perceived intimacy on my part.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what the wolves or the bears are feeling, probably no more than curiosity and at times probably nothing more than apathy.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: But for me to be in the presence of something that is to me that beautiful, the camera becomes an excuse.
• 1:20
  David McClelland: We also catch a glimpse of the wildlife photographers of the future this month with the week junior science and nature editor Dan Green.
• 1:30
  David McClelland: And we have an exclusive discount for listeners to this podcast who can get 20% off tickets to the Photography and Video Show 2025 taking place from the 8th to the 11th of March.
• 1:42
  David McClelland: Tickets are now available.
• 1:43
  David McClelland: More on that and on the discount code later on.
• 1:49
  David McClelland: But first, here to guide us through this month's news, it's Digital Camera World's Adam Juniper.
• 1:54
  David McClelland: Welcome to the show, Adam.
• 1:56
  David McClelland: Hi, glad to be here.
• 1:58
  David McClelland: Thank you.
• 1:58
  David McClelland: This is your debut appearance on the show.
• 2:01
  David McClelland: You and I have met in the past at photography events.
• 2:03
  David McClelland: I think most recently at the in-person photography and video show back in March earlier this year.
• 2:09
  David McClelland: But readers of Digital Camera World will be familiar with your work.
• 2:14
  David McClelland: What kind of stories do you tend to cover there, Adam?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: Main story area is drones, I think.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a bit of the drone nerd.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm also into the action cameras and I try and manage the security camera.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: There's people who are super into the cameras, and I look at the fact that imaging has a much wider area.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: There are cameras in a lot more things.
• 2:34
  David McClelland: Really looking forward to exploring maybe some types of cameras, some types of photography and videography that we haven't dipped into all that much.
• 2:43
  David McClelland: First of all, here, let's take a look at some of the news that's been uh happening this month.
• 2:48
  David McClelland: Canon has been dropping some lenses this month, including some new hybrid lenses.
• 2:54
  David McClelland: Hybrid lens.
• 2:55
  David McClelland: What's a hybrid lens when it's at home?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: If you're buying a camera these days, you're not really thinking about buying just a camera.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: The the first thing you're thinking about is whether you can shoot video on it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: And you're looking at the video specifications.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so making sure a lens is able to cope when you're shooting video is just as important, if not more important, to most people.
• 3:14
  David McClelland: Yeah.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: And a hybrid lens is one that is capable of that sort of situation.
• 3:18
  David McClelland: There are three lenses that have come out this way.
• 3:20
  David McClelland: In fact, there are actually more that Can has put out because it's also got its uh binocular 3D kind of VR lens as well.
• 3:27
  David McClelland: But the the two ones that I think are particularly interesting, that's it's an RF50mm and an RF24mm, both F1.4, both use the uh voice coil motor.
• 3:39
  David McClelland: And what's particularly interesting, I think, is that they are the same size as other ones.
• 3:44
  David McClelland: I think there's a 35mm RF F1.4 as well, which makes it practically, as a videographer, you've got the same package size of a lens.
• 3:53
  David McClelland: And when you're putting that into a rig, that means that you're not having to adjust, you know, where your follow focus might be, or if you've got flags and whatever else on there.
• 4:01
  David McClelland: It just drops in, yet gives you that um that that different focal length, which is great.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that can save a lot of time on a shoe.
• 4:10
  David McClelland: The uh RF50 mil and the RF24mm are uh 1,800 just uh above that pounds available from December.
• 4:20
  David McClelland: Typically, with your L-series lenses, these are L-series lenses.
• 4:24
  David McClelland: Typically, they are that kind of off-white, which is good for operating in heat.
• 4:28
  David McClelland: But we have another choice now, don't we?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's right, because the white on the outside is also the reason that rockets are mostly painted white.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: It uh reflects uh light when you're and therefore heat when you're in space that you don't need.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: But now they're painting them uh black.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, it's not so much a choice, it's uh it seems to be almost compulsory at first, but it does look like it might now be a choice.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: Although, yes, there's a weight difference, isn't there?
• 4:49
  David McClelland: There is of about five grams, I think, of the weight difference.
• 4:53
  David McClelland: So certainly for the I think the 70 to 200 mil, that does come in both of those colourways.
• 4:58
  David McClelland: The thing about those lighter-colored L series lenses that that we know well are they do stick out if you are, particularly if you're in a news gathering environment, uh, those lenses are easy to spot, and you might want something that's a little bit more discreet, perhaps.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: If you're in a if you're trying to shoot nature or you're being more discrete, or on the other hand, you know, some people like the white just because it does show up, you know, it marks you as one of the pros with a big lens.
• 5:27
  David McClelland: Yes, yes, there's certainly a bit of that that goes on as well.
• 5:30
  David McClelland: And of course, the one of the purposes of that white on there is to reflect the heat and to make sure that you're not in warmer environments getting going to get any optical distortion on that lens.
• 5:41
  David McClelland: Anyway, so if you are in the Canon system and you want to find out more about those lenses, uh say particularly interesting if you are one of those hybrid uh shooters, then uh well, we have stories over at Digital Camera World that uh Adam's colleagues have been busy penning over the last month or so.
• 6:00
  David McClelland: Let's move on to drones.
• 6:02
  David McClelland: And there's been some news this month, hasn't there, Adam, around uh a couple of releases.
• 6:06
  David McClelland: DJI, the Air 3, the Air 3S, and something that I hadn't come across before from Xero Robotics.
• 6:13
  David McClelland: Let's take off with the Air 3S, first of all.
• 6:16
  David McClelland: I saw your review on DCW.
• 6:19
  David McClelland: Maybe first of all, tell us what it is and in particular where it fits into the DJI drone ecosystem, because there's quite a few things that DJI has flying around at the moment, isn't there?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, oh yeah, DJI have a lot of uh the market uh for what you might call the consumer professional photography drone.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: So pretty much anyone who's on their own working in a small business, self-assigned or uh enthusiast, high-level photographer, most people who go and buy a drone for photography or for filmmaking are likely to be choosing DJI because other people have either moved out at the top into targeting governments or let's be fair, defence contractors with the products they're producing, or have just moved into the toy sector.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: So DJI have had an enormous amount of it for themselves, and as a result, they've stratified their own line in their own way.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: They produce high-end broadcast professional devices like the Inspire, which now costs the same as a small car.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: I I remember my first Inspire, my first Inspire cost about£1,500.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: The last one I few flew cost£15,000, and that's not just inflation.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's a big difference in the price of those drones.
• 7:35
  David McClelland: So these are like£8K, high-end film, high-end.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: It shoots in£8K.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of that money comes in lenses.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can change the lens, though.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's um it's impressive.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's slightly terrifying, but it's uh it's a wonderful piece of equipment.
• 7:49
  David McClelland: They do look very striking.
• 7:50
  David McClelland: This it's kind of less of your traditional drone.
• 7:53
  David McClelland: It looks more like a giant insect bug that you might see from Starship Troopers, Panzer Paul Verhoven films.
• 7:59
  David McClelland: Remember that.
• 7:59
  David McClelland: Um next level down from that is well, the Mavic?
• 8:04
  David McClelland: Would that be fair to say?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so the Mavic's an interesting one.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: So the Mavic name came along as it was called the Mavic Pro, but it really was a sort of it was the first folding drone.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: So for a long time, there's those white phantoms, which is still an iconic design.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then DJI came up with a folding drone, and it seemed like quite an enthusiastic, almost amateur product at the time.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: You could just fold up and throw in a bag.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that drone has pretty much stayed the same weight and just got better over time.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then other lighter ones have come underneath, and rules have changed, and lighter ones have made a lot more sense for a lot more people.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: So the drone market has grown, and the Mavic has got better.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so the Mavic is now a much more professional drone, at more or less the same weight.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: So now the Mavic 3 Pro, I think we're at, which has three cameras, is a very high-end drone.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: There are variants of it for cinema production.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's used in a lot of filmmaking, it can stay in the air for 40 odd minutes, has a telephoto, you know.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: Think of it like the the iPhone has three cameras, it has three, one of them's a hassle plaid.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: Although, to be fair, DJI owned Hasselblads, sort of.
• 9:07
  David McClelland: Right, okay.
• 9:08
  David McClelland: So that that's the Inspire right at the top.
• 9:10
  David McClelland: Then we've got that that Mavic as well.
• 9:13
  David McClelland: So does the air fit sort of beneath those?
• 9:16
  David McClelland: Is this a bit more of an accessible, kind of all roundery type drone?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly right.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: The air, an Air 3S.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: They're heavier than the ones anyone can access and use without regulations, but they are they're coming underneath at the what we'd probably call prosumer in the good old days of writing for consumers.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: That that market here.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: So you get two cameras, a wide and a slight telly, um, which is all you need.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you get a lot of variety there.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: They're both excellent.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: You get amazing time in the air, about 40 minutes, which is a very long time to concentrate on not causing trouble anyway.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it has all sorts of GPS, it can fly at 40 odd miles an hour, I think.
• 9:57
  David McClelland: My words.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh if you if you set the turn the safeties off.
• 10:00
  David McClelland: Yeah.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the safeties are amazing too, and the ability to track people, subjects, um, and even to avoid an obstacle.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: You can put a something on the ground, fly quite hard at it, yeah, and it will plot a path around it.
• 10:13
  David McClelland: So that's the DJI Air 3S.
• 10:17
  David McClelland: What's the difference between the S and the and the three?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: There's always been a lot of debate around the airs since they added the second camera because before that there was a larger one-inch image sensor, and then when they added the second camera, the image sensors got smaller so they could fit both on.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: Now they brought back the larger one-inch image sensor for the main camera.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: And image large image sensors, as you know, are always important for photography because they work well in low light, and the Air 3S has made low light a big thing.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: Low light's an interesting area with drones because often the rules don't let you fly in especially low light, depending on where you are.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: But this drone can definitely do it if you are allowed.
• 10:59
  David McClelland: Okay, so that does go over the 250 gram category.
• 11:04
  David McClelland: So just to round off the story before uh we move on to the Xero Robotics Hover Air X1 Pro.
• 11:11
  David McClelland: Below that, if you like, you've got the DJI Mini.
• 11:15
  David McClelland: We're up to three four Pro now, I think, with the with the Yes, that's that's that's the current uh one.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, so the the top end mini has now become quite a pro product in of itself.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um DJI has split off into a mini pro versions of the mini, a normal version of the mini, if you like.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's a what used to be the SE is now called the Mini 4K when they finally granted 4K to the mini, which is also a folding drone.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot of variety, just under 250 grams or eight ounces, which is the weight limit, yeah.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, under which you're allowed to fly quite near people, but still not too near an airport.
• 11:52
  David McClelland: Not too near an airport.
• 11:53
  David McClelland: And and then speaking of flying near people, you've got the Neo as well, which uh I see being called a kind of selfie drone thing.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I wasn't going to mention the Neo until we'd mentioned the hover uh 00 hover ad because the Neo is a little bit of a copy of an idea.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: Even DJI will um be inspired, shall we say, by a good idea.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: The Neo is all things to all people.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: It lets you fly it without a remote.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: You can just put it in your hand and tap a button and it'll circle around you.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: It just uses as a camera to keep its eye on you, so it's got a bit of AI in there.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: It has its cages around all its props, so it can hardly do any damage, and it weighs half as much as one of those drones that are built to just touch the limit.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: So it's really safe.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: It can hardly cause any damage at all, even if something goes wrong, which is a brilliant idea.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's an idea they may have seen in Hover, sorry, Zero Zero Robotics's Hover Air X1.
• 12:47
  David McClelland: Which is now a thing, which that now is a new last story.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: The new story is so that came out, got a lot of attention last year.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: It was like the first time anyone went, made a serious consumer drone that took some attention from DJI for a long time.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh or not quite the first, but certainly one of the most notable because it was very smart.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: It used AI, it tracked you.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: You didn't need another device.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: And uh now they've come back with another one, and theirs are called a Pro and a Pro Max.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: And they seem to be really gunning for DJI now because they've got 8K in one of those drones.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: Even DJI don't put 8K in anything except the uh car priced inspire.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I've got one of those and I've been uh testing it out.
• 13:28
  David McClelland: And then just to round off the DJI side, there's the Avata, which is just going back to the conversation we had with Stephen Clary the last episode or so.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was great, wasn't it?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: It was really sorry, I I listened to it, I really enjoyed that because he really reminded me of the brilliant fun that is FPV and the excitement that can be had from the other side of drones.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think as photographers and video makers, we often think of the hovering and the positioning, and these days you often forget what was the most exciting thing for me early on was it charging along and flying through the air, which used to be quite a specialist thing, you used to have to build them yourself, but now DJI have also made drones that fit in that category, including the Avata, and interestingly, and this is where the Nero is sorry, the Neo is different from the Hover Air the Neo.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: You can go and buy DJI's goggles and the special controller and switch it into FPV mode.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: So you've got the opportunity, nothing admittedly at quite a significant extra cost because goggles are not cheap to fly in FPV style.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: There are some interesting rumors swirling around that some cheaper goggles might be coming from DJI.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Possibly even before Christmas.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: But good timing for can't comment on that.
• 14:41
  David McClelland: Well, if you want to find out more about rumors, then maybe there are one or two rumor articles that make their way, or all very, very well identified as rumor articles, but we'll have a bit of speculation.
• 14:52
  David McClelland: It's good fun that appears in the good pages of Digital Camera World, of which uh Adam is one of the many custodians.
• 14:59
  David McClelland: Thank you so much indeed for joining us today, Adam.
• 15:02
  David McClelland: Really enjoyed having you on the show.
• 15:04
  David McClelland: And uh yeah, look forward to uh having you back on again in the future.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's the told you, sir.
• 15:11
  David McClelland: David Duchemann is a photographer, adventurer, and best-selling author based in British Columbia, Canada.
• 15:20
  David McClelland: Known for his humanitarian photography, his work and his life changed forever following a life-altering accident while making images in Italy.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: If I had something to say with my current work, specifically wildlife, it would be around the theme of vanishing beauty.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and that sounds so trite, and it sounds so cliche, but coming off the back end of a career as a humanitarian photographer, I see one of the biggest humanitarian crises of our lives being intertwined with the environment and the loss of habitat and uh uh the the changing of climates and everything that that implies.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to direct my lens at things that are wild and bigger than myself and have encounters with those animals while there is still time.
• 16:23
  David McClelland: You're based on Vancouver Island, I believe, where there is no shortage of beautiful wildlife, beautiful scenes.
• 16:32
  David McClelland: Bears and wolves seem to feature quite a lot in your work at the moment.
• 16:37
  David McClelland: Are you seeing first hand there the change in front of you, the this disappearing sense of what's happened before at the hands of what mankind has been doing to it?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, certainly.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: There's and and they they occur in in little bits and pieces, uh little moments that you notice.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: For example, uh the salmon the so every year I photograph grizzlies, uh grizzly bears up north of where I live on the mainland of British Columbia, and they come down to the rivers to feed on the spawning sake salmon.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And uh that's what sets them up for denning.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: The females uh they require a certain amount of body fat for um during the winter.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: They're the um they experience something called delayed implantation.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: So they will have mated previously in the year, but it will not be until they're denning and in this in this sort of quasi-hibernation state that they that they will actually conceive and uh gestate and carry their their cubs who will be born um while they den.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but that can't happen unless they get a certain amount of body fat, specifically around 33%.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so they're really intent on consuming a lot of salmon.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: And and so that's what brings them there.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and this year the the Fraser River, which is one of the significant um uh salmon habitats and gets so many of these salmon back to their spawning grounds, this year the the Fraser River was uh was uh noticeably warmer, and I think the number was three degrees warmer.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that has a huge effect on salmon numbers.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it's it's so you see things like that, and then you see fewer salmon, and then but everything's so interconnected that it's very difficult to sort of point at it and go, aha, you know, that's that's uh that's climate change for you.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's such an interconnected thing.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: But we are certainly seeing uh lower numbers of salmon, and uh globally we're seeing just biologists are saying this is changing.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's the flapping of the butterfly's wings.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, one thing happens and another, and and so yeah, certainly we we are seeing uh things change.
• 18:51
  David McClelland: And you are there firsthand able not not only to capture it, to represent it, but also to document it as well for for others to see and to and to tell that story.
• 19:02
  David McClelland: I want to come back to the bears, to the wolves in a moment, but let's rewind a little bit to the point at which you first picked up your camera.
• 19:14
  David McClelland: Everyone's got their origin story.
• 19:16
  David McClelland: What have you got to say about yours?
• 19:17
  David McClelland: When were you first picking up a camera and making photos and falling in love with the way that that felt for you?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: I remember three very distinct moments.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: One, I was probably 10 years old, and my father gave me, my father was uh a tank commander in the Canadian military, but he also did a lot of photography for uh for the military.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so cameras were always around.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember getting this little 110 format camera.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was a little rectangular brick, and the negatives were about the size of my pinky fingernail, and the the good the grain was just out of control.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I remember being out camping and I was photographing just random stuff.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember turning to my my mother and saying, Hey, is it is it raining out?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it wasn't.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: It would there, but it there was a porcupine right above my head and it was urinating on me.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that was one of my first, and I was like, if if I had sort of, now that I look back, I'm like, is that foreshadowing?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is that the the way that my career was gonna go?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then I remember my mother having a Yashika 35mm SLR, and I remember playing with it um and realizing to my horror that there was there was film in the camera, and that I'd just blown through a roll of film of really stupid stuff in the house, and she was gonna know exactly who this was.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I loved the feel of that camera in my hands.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then one day I was at a garage sale, uh a rummage sale at, you know, in my neighborhood, and someone was selling a 35 millimeter fixed lens Voidlander rangefinder.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, classic.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I picked it up and it just made sense to me.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was when all my other friends were playing music and learning play drums and guitar, and I had no rhythm whatsoever.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: I I picked up this camera and you know, I became the guy that photographed the band because I was certainly wasn't going to be playing anything.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I would hang out with them and I'd then I got a Pentax SLR.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was still at the time, it was an old used, it was probably, you know, 20 years old by the time I I got it.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it just made sense, you know.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: I picked it up and I can still, I can still, I still have that camera and I can still, you know, with my eyes closed, I I can get to sixty of a second.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: I know I'm exactly there because it got a bit of a shutter bounce and that muscle memory, it never goes away.
• 21:34
  David McClelland: It's just amazing.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's just and and it turns out uh my father passed about five years ago and I got his camera gear, and uh it turns out his camera gear was the same, exact same as mine.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: I hadn't remembered that, but we both had this, you know, Kent Pentax Spotmatic kit.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: His was black, mine was chrome, so now I only shoot with black cameras.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a an homage thing.
• 21:56
  David McClelland: Lovely memories.
• 21:57
  David McClelland: Um you didn't go in To photography, though, what while you clearly had a connection with it, a kind of kinetic connection as well as an emotional connection, you you w went in a different direction and ended up on the stage as a as a comedian, rubber chicken guy.
• 22:14
  David McClelland: Tell me about that.
• 22:15
  David McClelland: Because that that's a bit of a left-at-the-traffic lights from the photography piece, I think.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: It very much is.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: One of which was me not going into, you know, honors program and history at university, uh, or geolog geography was the other possibility.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And instead, I followed a girl to a theology school and ended up there five, I crammed a four-year degree into five years.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: And somewhere along the way, I learned to juggle.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I've always worked with kids, and this was just a means to sort of, you know, entertain kids.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but it became a means to make a living.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: And before I knew it, I was I was doing gigs around the country and then around North America.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it just kind of, I graduated.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I was the pride of my theology school.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: I graduated and went into a career as a juggler and a comedian.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I had a wonderful, you know, I had a wonderful 12 years, really enjoyed myself.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then one day I went to Haiti.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, in in part because I was doing comedy and this organization thought it would, there might be sort of a connection, a way for me to bring awareness and raise funds from the stage.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I said, Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll go and see what the work you're doing.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And they found out I was a photographer and they said, Could you bring your camera?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I was there for about 12 hours and I went, This, this is what I want to do.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: I've, you know, I've always loved photography, but it was more about the technique and the, you know, the gear.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I wasn't, you know, I was learning my craft, but I didn't know to what end I was learning it.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I came home and I said, I'm, I'm quitting the stage.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna become a humanitarian photographer.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And all my my friends and family said, Well, what's that?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I really don't know, but I was gonna find out.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: They said, Well, can you get I mean, can you make a living at that?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: I said, I don't know that either.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, if you can sell juggling to the world, you can probably find a way to eke out a living as a humanitarian photographer, which I did for then for a number of years.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh probably did my last assignment in 2017.
• 24:27
  David McClelland: So break down what humanitarian photographer actually is.
• 24:32
  David McClelland: What is it that you are looking to capture on camera?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell Yeah, I think it's probably very different for a lot of people.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh specifically for me, it meant serving the international NGO uh community, uh specifically uh humanitarian organizations.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I specialize in working with organizations that work primarily with children and families, uh communities.
• 24:58
  David McClelland: Uh so still the children, still the young people, yeah, drawing lines from the comedy.
• 25:03
  David McClelland: That's right.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly so.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I worked with uh organizations like Visiting Orphans, Save the Children, uh World Vision, all organizations that primarily are working with families, and and a lot of them have a child sponsorship model.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I would I would go in and I was not and have never been a documentarian.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a journalist.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: I was photographing uh the hope of these situations.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: I was hope really I was a glorified portrait photographer, uh, making meaningful photographs of of children, yes, in poverty, yes, in dire conditions, often post-war situations.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but but not, you know, I wasn't photographing the flies around the eyes and the distended bellies.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: We've seen those photographs for years, and it's like nothing's changed.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was photographing the hope and uh the you know, the smiles and and the connection so that when people saw that uh coupled with uh you know some fundraising campaign that's endeavored to uh like to raise money for for something via the mechanism of buy a goat for a family, buy a uh, you know, uh buy a well for a village.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was photographing in those contexts.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a dark corner from which to view the world, but at the same time, it was pretty it was pretty wonderful.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I I did enjoy my time there.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: I just eventually kind of flamed out.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I had an accident back in 2011 that sort of put uh put the brakes on things for a while.
• 26:33
  David McClelland: Yeah, I I do want to come to that if if that's all right.
• 26:37
  David McClelland: Absolutely.
• 26:38
  David McClelland: Photographing the hope, I I wrote down here as how you put it.
• 26:42
  David McClelland: I'm just I'm just wondering how you were able to, well, maybe you didn't hit the ground running.
• 26:48
  David McClelland: Clearly, there was an emotional click for you, but in terms of your ability to tell the stories that not only you wanted to tell, but also practically financially, you could be commissioned, therefore, to go and tell.
• 27:02
  David McClelland: Was there a learning curve or did that click for you as well?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, there were there was a learning curve.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know that I had the confidence so much as I had the the naivete.
• 27:13
  David McClelland: Um but they go hand in hand for me.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I think they do.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I, you know, my mother always kind of taught me within some limits that I could do anything I tried my hand at.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I have never felt, you know, my whole life is my life motto is well, that didn't go as planned, but I've always tried and I figured, you know what, I'm gonna give it a give it a go.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I I had I so I picked up the camera when I was 14, and I mean meaningfully picked up the camera when I was 14, and I had been photographing all along.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I felt like the the craft skills were there.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: I had just come uh digital had just become a thing.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I that's what really kind of brought me back into photography was um was digital because the feedback loop was uh so much shortened and it allowed me to to go out and actually see what I was doing.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: And um, that I think was probably the biggest because the camera I'd figured out.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I knew how to use the camera.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then it was really just a question of uh using the skills that I had developed as a comedian to connect because it's all about connection and communication.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I I even I on some level I see that now with my work is I'm I'm looking for the encounter.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking for that first the experience of that encounter, and whether it was back then with kids and families or now with, you know, with grizzly bears.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: And there's there's the encounter is the most important part to me.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's something I learned in comedy.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that connection is so important.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately I just went from a craft of communication, which comedy most certainly is, to another craft of communication, uh, just using different different tools and was desperate to get off the stage, um, which which is, you know, really quite ironic because I actually ended up on a bigger stage when when my first book did as well as it did, and it sort of thrust me into a more visible role.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I was a little, I mean, I was prepared for it because I'd done comedy and I'd been on stages, but at the same time, I was like, this is not what I signed up for.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: I really sort of I was thinking I was gonna get to hide behind the camera a little bit.
• 29:24
  David McClelland: I wrote down the the encounter and the ability to improvise, the ability to think on your feet.
• 29:32
  David McClelland: Uh, they're in a script when you're out on location filming children or filming bears and wolves.
• 29:38
  David McClelland: You need to have the confidence that whether it's naivety or confidence, but the ability to go, yeah, okay.
• 29:45
  David McClelland: Some there has been a zig over there.
• 29:47
  David McClelland: I need to respond to that.
• 29:48
  David McClelland: And I don't know what that looks like, but let's go down that path and see where it takes us.
• 29:53
  David McClelland: That there's a certain self self-confidence that you need in order to do that.
• 29:58
  David McClelland: And that's not something that's easy to teach necessarily.
• 30:01
  David McClelland: It's just either there through naivety or just there through experience, I think.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: It begins with the naivete.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually, if you know, if you've got your eyes open, you realize that you're learning lessons along the way and it becomes confidence, I think, after after all these years.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you're right.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in broadcasting, they they always said, you know, don't work with children, don't work with animals.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I I woke up to find myself in a career where I was working with with both and uh and absolutely love it.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: But it's years, you know, I think now at 52 years old, I I think, man, if I could just take that confidence and those lessons learned and dial the clock back, uh I could really make something of it, you know?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh yeah.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: But those soft skills is that improvisation you mentioned that is so um that's that's at the core of creativity.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's I think why corporations do workshops on improvisation, uh, because if you can learn to improvise, you can, I mean, that's I think is uh at the core of being creative.
• 31:03
  David McClelland: Yeah.
• 31:05
  David McClelland: There is a it's not a meme, it's a thing online.
• 31:09
  David McClelland: So let's call it a theme.
• 31:11
  David McClelland: Yeah, that that sort of works.
• 31:12
  David McClelland: Okay.
• 31:12
  David McClelland: Uh a a theme about taking a hobby, taking something that you find joy in and then proceeding to turn it into a job.
• 31:22
  David McClelland: And there's a couple of directions this one goes in.
• 31:25
  David McClelland: There's the cliche that if you turn your hobby into a job, you'll never work another day again.
• 31:29
  David McClelland: But there's also the opposing view as well, isn't there, that by going professional with your hobby, you stand there's a risk that you'll lose what it was that gave you joy doing it in the first place.
• 31:41
  David McClelland: Now, you're still making photos, so I figure you fell into that first camp.
• 31:45
  David McClelland: But do you have advice for people?
• 31:48
  David McClelland: And I I sure you do, and I'm sure you've spoken to a number of people who who are in this situation that do find joy in saying something through the images that they've made.
• 32:00
  David McClelland: Do you have any advice for whether there is a risk or how they should mentally approach what that next step would be in terms of turning this into a career, or actually, no, keep keep going with the joy?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I uh I could probably talk about this all day long.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um I initially didn't become a professional photographer.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was I was going to go to school for it and follow that traditional path.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I realized after job shadowing a photographer in Ottawa for a couple of days that this was this was that in fact I would lose the joy.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: I would end up being a wedding photographer.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And listen, there are a lot of great wedding photographers that love what they do, but I knew that would, you know, it if it didn't just outright kill me, it would certainly I would I would watch my soul leaving my body.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: I just couldn't, I couldn't do it.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I was right about it.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I knew, I know now that if I had, I probably would have lost that joy.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: But coming into it the way I did as sort of a second career, uh, I think I came in with my eyes wide open.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: I had already experienced a bankruptcy due to uh a convergence of some terrible life choices, uh, most of which centered around the fact that I had no idea how to manage money.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so those were hard lessons learned.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: When you, here's the piece of advice when you take your hobby and marry it to commerce, there are compromises to be made.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that is its own craft.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like saying to a still photographer, well, you really should take up video.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't, but you do need to recognize that video is its own language.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: The moving picture is its own language, audio is its own thing.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: Just simply knowing how to use a camera does not a videographer make any more than it does a still photographer.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I what I would argue is there's actually a book written called The E-Myth.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, you're really good at baking pies, you should bake pies for a for a living.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then the love of make baking the pie turns into you need to know how to run the bakery, you know, it need to know how to market yourself.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: And suddenly you're doing all the other things other than just baking the pies that you wanted to bake.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think the same thing applies.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it is a danger that if you don't have the skill set to engage that craft well, uh, because commerce is its own thing.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Being an entrepreneur is its own thing.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's not simply, you know, printing up business cards that say, have camera, we'll travel.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um because everyone's got a camera, everyone wants to travel.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you've got to find a way to bring value to the marketplace.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Just knowing how to make a photograph, everyone knows how to make a photograph.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the the iPhone has made everyone a photographer.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't say that disparagingly.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's great.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a gift.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it just means that if you're going to do it professionally, you need to know where your value is and you need to be willing to, you know, buckle up and become an entrepreneur.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a whole different skill set.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Not everyone has it.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Not everyone wants to either.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: But it's uh, I spent a lot of time not making photographs, doing other things, you know.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: And uh if you're not willing to be the janitor and the CEO and all the other roles, other than just the photographer, it's gonna be a tough slog and you are gonna lose your love.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know what?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Become a doctor, make a lot of money, and then you can, you know, do your photography, retire early and do your photography on your terms.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that is what you you risk losing is doing it on your terms, it being something that is creative and something that comes from the deepest parts of you, to simply punching a a time clock in order just to what, use a camera for someone else's benefit?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: I you really have to know what you're getting into.
• 35:51
  David McClelland: Taking it back to the stage show business are two very, very different words in there, and they don't often go hand in hand.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: No, they they don't.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's a very astute comment.
• 36:06
  David McClelland: You mentioned it a moment ago.
• 36:08
  David McClelland: Um your work as a humanitarian photographer took you around the world, Africa, Asia, elsewhere.
• 36:15
  David McClelland: It was while you were in Italy that you uh were on assignment and you had an accident.
• 36:20
  David McClelland: Tell us about that and tell us what it what it changed for you.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, it changed everything.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I was actually leading a workshop.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: I had a group of uh I had four weeks, three weeks in Italy, one week in Croatia, uh, and it was just back-to-back weeklong workshops.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I had just said goodbye to the first group uh uh on which I met my wife.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so that that changed everything.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: First I fell in love, then I fell off, then I fell off the wall.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there's a there's a river that winds through Pisa and winds through uh other Tuscan towns called the the Arno, and uh street level is up.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you look down, there are sort of 30-foot walls that uh flank the river, and then the river runs through the town.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just sitting there, it was the end of the first, we just my group had come in, we'd all had dinner and we're chatting and uh weren't quite ready to say goodnight.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I was, you know, I looked down, I thought, oh, that's you know, if I could get myself down there, that might be a better perspective on this shot.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I could come back first thing in the morning and, you know, take a picture in in some nicer light.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've never been terribly afraid of heights.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I was a rock climber in my youth.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, well, I'll just hop down.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's a little bit of a ledge.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'll hop down so that the the lines are are sort of coming this way rather than looking down on the lines.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted that feeling of depth and and kind of immersion that I think a lot of my photographs have.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and long story short, I missed, I missed my footing.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember thinking, I'm not gonna make this.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: It was all 30 feet's a long way down.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I landed on my feet, uh, crumpled into a ball, and uh eventually, you know, was they it was Easter weekend.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of Catholics in Italy, and they weren't doing anything except hanging out.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: So this attracted quite a crowd.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: The fireman came, and then they needed a crane to, you know, a cherry picker to to bring me up on a spinal board, and it was all very dramatic.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, if if if if only I had made an Insta reel, I could have been famous.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um anyway, the the long and the short of it is I broke, I shattered both my feet, I cracked my pelvis, I was in, I was evacuated back to Canada.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: I had four 40 uh days in the hospital and then eventually left and you know, eventually learned to walk again.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but things never quite healed.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so a year ago, uh my right foot was getting worse.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: It was getting more arthritic, and it just I saw my I saw my life sort of developing before me.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like, I'm either gonna spend more time on the couch or you know, the walking was gonna become harder and I would do fewer adventures.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, This is this is not what I want.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I uh and it sounds so cavalier.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: There was a lot more behind it, but I ultimately walked into the surgeon's office and said, you know, I want you to amputate my foot, which again sounds very I I broke the FedEx lady one uh one day because she came with a box of crutches and she said, Oh, I hope, oh, no, no one needs these.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, I'm I'm getting my foot cut off next month.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: And she just she just like started her eyes welled up and she started crying.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I had to go back in and tell my my wife that I had broken the FedEx lady.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was then that I realized I I you know there was just no easy way of sort of broaching the conversation.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that was just over a year ago, and I've been I've been learning to walk on a prosthesis, and uh now I'm doing things that I couldn't have done two years ago.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um I couldn't walk up hills because my ankle didn't bend and there was a lot of pain and arthritis and and it put through everything in my body out.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and you know, now I'm at the gym and I'm leg pressing 300 pounds and I'm jumping on boxes and and it's it's quite astonishing.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: I've got a long, you know, long way to go, but I'm uh the payoff has been phenomenal.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but the accident itself put me in touch with an an awareness, an even deeper awareness of my mortality and the the brevity and the importance of life.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think I've always been a kind of a seize the day kind of guy, but this kind of made it really cranked it up for me, made me really aware that you know, there are risks that we take in life.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: And some of them are, you know, you never know quite how it's gonna pay off, but those risks are part of the creative process.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the unknown, we always work within the unknown.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we whether it's like I don't quite know how the shot's gonna turn out, or I don't quite know how this uh, you know, this technique is gonna be become part of what I do, or this new piece of gear.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: But we we live and operate in the unknown.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and it I think one of the the central tasks of becoming a human being is uh recalibrating our relationship with the unknown and with fear.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um I also think it made me a bit uh I think it made me a gentler, kinder person.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um it slowed me down a little bit, and I think that was that was good.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't I certainly don't regret it.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, frankly, the the prosthetic leg is pretty cool.
• 41:43
  David McClelland: So I've seen the pictures of it.
• 41:45
  David McClelland: Um you wear it, you wear it very well indeed.
• 41:48
  David McClelland: And you know, it it sounds as though you've had to take, and I again I I apologize for the puns, but you you've had to take a a step back in order to take two steps forwards, but it sounds as though that's what's happening now.
• 42:01
  David McClelland: In terms of you spoke there about how it has changed you.
• 42:06
  David McClelland: It it was a moment of reflection on yourself and how you see the world and the Carpe DM uh feeling that that you've all always had to an extent.
• 42:18
  David McClelland: Is it around this time then?
• 42:19
  David McClelland: Because you'd been working on assignment all over the place, very mobile with the humanitarian photography.
• 42:25
  David McClelland: Was this around about the time then that you turned to wildlife photography instead?
• 42:31
  David McClelland: Um still sort of sort of saying the same not not saying the same thing, but you're still saying a thing about a species and the and the struggles and the hope that it that it has, the the challenges that it faces.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, I'm still not a documentarian, I'm still not a journalist.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still photographing the hopeful stuff.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh at times, you know, I I if someone said, well, your images are a little overly romantic or nostalgic, I would be very happy to accept that, whether it's a criticism or a praise.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: I I I look at things generally very positively.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yes, that it was around that time that I began to make a transition.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I think the pandemic was the thing that really sealed it for me, was I realized there was no way I was going to go back to India or crowded places uh like everyone else.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think I developed a little bit of social anxiety about these things, um, while at the same time seeking refuge in quieter places and enjoying sitting on a riverbank, you know, and and just me and my camera and hope, hoping a bear will will show up or or whatever.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and it was then that I kind of I actually looked back.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of us were very introspective during the pandemic.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: We had a lot of time on our hands.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I look back at the the work that was most recently meaningful to me.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I think I have un Knowingly become a wildlife photographer.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: I've never liked the labels because at the end of the day, it's not actually wildlife.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: Those aren't the themes.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's wildness.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's adventure.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's the animals themselves.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, I I woke up one day and went, I I guess this is this is who I've become for now.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh will that change in the future?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: But but I've enjoyed the journey and I I love what I'm photographing now.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: I love that it gets me into quieter places, and I think it's a good match for a person who has become I've always been fairly contemplative, but I think I'm less willing to do that around hordes of people.
• 44:38
  David McClelland: Which brings us back to British Columbia, Vancouver Island, bears, wolves, some of the recent work.
• 44:45
  David McClelland: Uh for those watching, there's an image behind you of a of a bear shot on a on a pretty long lens there.
• 44:53
  David McClelland: When you are making photographs of them, what's your connection with those animals?
• 44:58
  David McClelland: Do you have a connection with those animals?
• 45:00
  David McClelland: I mean, you've you've studied them, you've already demonstrated in our chat today a fairly intimate knowledge of gestation cycles and uh fat levels and what motivates them to um uh pursue the behaviors that they do.
• 45:15
  David McClelland: Is there something in you that you see when you are making pictures with the bull with the bears, with the wolves?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: Most certainly.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, I think a lot of what I do, and again, if I I we're told not to anthropomorphize animals, and yet I think the I think it's almost necessary that we do in a way because that is the trigger that that uh leverages our empathy.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's what makes us care for them.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: It would be nice if we cared for them for other reasons, but I think to have compassion for another species, you need to understand them.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: You need to have a respect and uh an awe.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I pursue wonder.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: I I have over the last few years realized that it is the wonder and the experience of that that I am in pursuit of, to be in pursuit of something that's bigger than myself, that is, you know, yes, there is an encounter and there is a an intimacy, a perceived intimacy on my part.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what the wolves or the bears are feeling, probably no more than curiosity and and at times probably nothing more than apathy.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for me to be in the presence of something uh that is that to me that beautiful, the camera becomes a an excuse.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: It becomes a way of, you know, with I I would prefer if I could only shoot with one lens and in one way, I would love to be 16 to 35 millimeters low on the ground, nice and close.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: You you would be foolish if that was the way you approach rhinos or you know, most bare encounters.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: The 600 millimeter lens becomes a necessity, but it it also becomes you are not physically proximate, but you are in a sense much closer.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: You see the look in their eye, you see the fur and uh you know the the drop of drool or whatever it is.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: There is a perception of intimacy that that I am in pursuit of when I'm photographing wildlife.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um and there's a lot of time wildlife photographer photographers, you know, for every one photograph you actually make, are often hours and hours spent not making photographs, just waiting for the light to change or for the the cat to wake up or whatever it is.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: There is a lot of time to reflect on life and beauty and just the wonder of the moment.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's a pretty, you know, I don't want to get I don't want to get too existential about this, but there is something, the camera is something that that has allowed it's allowed me to be fully alive, whether that's you know, exploring countries and cultures and places.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a pretty introverted person.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: I was an introverted kid, and and I'm in awe of the fact that because of these cameras, I've I've been around the world, I've spent time with nomads, and I've I mean I've done what I think like I look sort of distance myself and look back and I go, wow, that's you know, I can't believe this introverted kid would would end up like that.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: The camera has been the reason for that, you know, it's been the passport, it's been the open door, um, and has made me the the person I am.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I you know, that feeling of being more awake, being more alive.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, that's all we've got, right?
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: Is like you live X amount of days.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the what did they say?
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the length of your your life, but the depth of it.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's the thing you can control is your the depth to you know that you live with.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: And the camera has given me that.
• 49:00
  David McClelland: There's a theme that's connecting a few conversations that we've had on the on the show over the last few months.
• 49:07
  David McClelland: And and you just plugged into it there again for me.
• 49:10
  David McClelland: And it's about the role that the camera plays, the um the connections that it facilitates.
• 49:16
  David McClelland: And chatting with uh Gabrielle Matola, who is a therapeutic photography practitioner, and she uh works with people who um maybe on the autistic spectrum, um, maybe have other social challenges, but she works with them with camera in hand uh in a street photography setting and uses the street photography as a framework to help people relate to and engage in conversations with.
• 49:43
  David McClelland: It's an excuse to engage in conversations with other people uh in a way that they wouldn't do normally or might struggle to do otherwise.
• 49:52
  David McClelland: And we've we've explored in in various conversations the role that the camera has in facilitating feelings, experiences, connections as well.
• 50:04
  David McClelland: And that just puts awe in my mind about the power that that that that camera has and the experiences that it gives people, almost irrespective of the images that are made as a result of having that camera in in your hand.
• 50:20
  David McClelland: The fact that the camera is there and it is helping you to do something, helping you to communicate, to commune with something that you you wouldn't otherwise do is it's a marvelous thing, David.
• 50:32
  David McClelland: It's a marvelous thing.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: It it really is.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I would argue that because of those experiences, because of the fact that it it in can, if we allow it to, can uh engage our curiosity, you know, the patience that is required, all of these soft skills, ultimately it ends up making better photographs.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a happy coincidence.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: If you put the one before the other, I I don't think you experience the same thing uh on either side.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have the profundity of the experience, but you also don't have the depth of insight uh or whatever it is that takes, you know, that makes that photograph what it is.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: But if you can turn it around and you can put the experience first, that that gives us, you know, the photographs that we all are so proud of that we love, that are are actually deeply meaningful parts of our lives, you know.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's I I think it's it's remarkable.
• 51:31
  David McClelland: You are going to be sharing some of those photographs uh that uh you have taken joy from, that you've experienced and that other people have as well, when you come to uh well, come to London in the UK next March, March 2025 for the photography and the video show.
• 51:51
  David McClelland: I really look forward to catching up in person there.
• 51:54
  David McClelland: But until then, you also have a new book.
• 51:56
  David McClelland: Now I was looking on a on a bookstore that has got books from A through to Z, and you have a lot of books.
• 52:03
  David McClelland: Um, but you have a new one that I saw you signing copies of on social media.
• 52:07
  David McClelland: Tell us what it is that you are you are sharing and what it is that you want to say in your book Light, Space and Time.
• 52:14
  David McClelland: Yeah, I I not uncoincidentally have a copy of it.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's uh yeah, it's called Light, Space and Time, essays on camera craft and creativity.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my my mother asked uh months ago when I was in engrossed in the writing, she said, you know, so what's what's this one about?
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, blah blah blah, it's about the same thing I always write about, just with different pictures.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's because the thing that I want to talk about, the conversations I most enjoy with photographers, and I think frankly, move the needle towards more compelling photographs uh and certainly more satisfied creative people, it are the conversations about the soft skills, are the conversations about the value of curiosity and patience and uh luck and you know, the dance that we all have with luck and circumstance and the frustrations of being uh, you know, working as a creative in, like we talked about, you know, it I what we do is unknown.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know that it's going to work out.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: All of the challenges of being create uh creative, I think, are conversations that I want to have.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: Most photographers get to a point very quickly where they realize the challenge that they are having is not primarily a technical one, that the camera is important, but it's insufficient.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it will do what we want it to do.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: And God, there's so much value and understanding it.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: The the title of this, Light, Space, and Time, came from this idea that these are our raw materials and that the camera can perceive and interpret light, space, and time in ways that we can't.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: For example, you know, an eighth of a second will do certain things to motion in in specifically, you know, time.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: It treats time in a way that we can't actually perceive with our eyes.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: 600 millimeters will do a certain thing, or 16 millimeters will do a certain thing to space.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: Underexposing your camera by five stops allows you to really expose just for the highlights and plunge to shadows.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: Our eyes can't see that.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's an act of creative perception to see the world through the way that the camera does.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: All of that kind of thing.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think those are the challenges.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: Once we have begun to get a hold of the technical stuff, it's a lifelong journey.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: But the soft skill stuff, how we think, how we perceive, how we the it's been saddened to the point of cliche, but I think Ansel Adams was the one that said, you know, the most important tool, the photographer, is, you know, 12 inches, the 12 inches behind the camera, i.e., your your head, your brain.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, most voices in the photography world at some point have said something similar.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not saying anything new, but it really is my my life task seems to be helping photographers make photographs that are not merely good, but are uh intensely their own, that are uh made with a sense of freedom, that uh that at least that some of that frustration that we feel is something that we feel okay about, you know, rather than a sense of shame about.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, those are the kind of conversations.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what this book is.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's at the subtitle is Essays on Camera Craft and Creativity.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's it's that stuff that uh that I'm talking about.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then peppered in between, there are some pretty, pretty pictures in order to make the book nice and thick.
• 55:37
  David McClelland: You are too modest.
• 55:38
  David McClelland: Uh I look forward to uh to getting a copy of that.
• 55:42
  David McClelland: And I look forward to seeing you in London next March.
• 55:46
  David McClelland: But for now, David Dechiman, thank you so much for joining us here on the Photography and Video Show podcast.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're so welcome.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to uh can't wait to be there in person.
• 56:05
  David McClelland: A big thanks to David for joining us.
• 56:07
  David McClelland: Links to his website and his new book are in the show notes.
• 56:13
  David McClelland: Welcome back to Dan Green, editor at The Week Junior Science and Nature.
• 56:18
  David McClelland: Dan, we spoke back in August now about your scavenger hunt competition.
• 56:25
  David McClelland: Well, the winners, the finalists, have now been announced.
• 56:29
  David McClelland: Tell us about the competition for anyone who wasn't listening back in August and tell us how the judging process went.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hi, thanks for having me back after having me on to introduce this competition.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the competition is closed now, and it's called the Scavenger Hunt Photo Competition.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a competition that Science and Nature magazine runs every year.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's for children under 16.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: And basically, the invitation is to go out over their summer holidays and have adventures, get closer to nature and take a picture that shows the beauty in nature and send it in.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's really simple.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: This time we our sort of catch, our hook was close encounters with nature.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we wanted them to get really sort of up close and personal with nature.
• 57:18
  David McClelland: How many entries did you have?
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, drum roll, please.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: So this was only open for five weeks, but we had 1400 entries.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: So for our very small team, quite a lot of work to go through all of those, all of those entries.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it just represented a phenomenal sort of response to the to the to the competition and loads of support from partners like Canon, who provided the prizes, and also the wildlife trusts.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it was really great.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Really, every photo kind of was a little individual adventure in nature.
• 57:53
  David McClelland: We'll we'll come on to the winners and find lists in a moment, but just talk to me about the judging process when you have so many images flooding your inbox there.
• 58:01
  David McClelland: What does that judging process look like?
• 58:03
  David McClelland: Because obviously people have spent time, they've been on their mini adventures, they've hunted these images down and put put time and effort and care into uh making them look as good as they can.
• 58:14
  David McClelland: So you want to give them all as as much attention as you can and make sure that they are getting the, I guess, the uh the process that they deserve.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're you're dead right about giving everybody, you know, a fair shot.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to look at every single image as that comes in.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, when you've got that many images coming in, we had to be on it and basically be whittling down as we went along.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: Live shortlisting, if you like.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think having the criteria for the competition really helped this year.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: The winning photo was going to be on the cover.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that was like it just had to be a cover-worthy image, something that we would put on our front cover and could sit on the newsstand for a month because we're a monthly magazine looking amazing and just, you know, a real pick this magazine up kind of picture.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we wanted, you know, any bright, colourful, great composition, those sorts of things.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then by the end of the summer, we probably had it whittled down.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: The team had it whittled down to maybe uh 30 or 40 pictures.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then we convened for a judging session with sort of members of the team, the art editor, the picture editor, and an external judge as well, who was the wildlife photographer Ellie Rothney.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, who's a canon ambassador, and she was absolutely awesome.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: And basically, they they thrashed it out in that session and arrived at the uh the top 10 pictures, which were then printed in the magazine with the with the first prize on the cover.
• 59:44
  David McClelland: Yeah, fantastic.
• 59:45
  David McClelland: Well, let's let's come to the finalists then.
• 59:48
  David McClelland: And on your Facebook page for the week Junior Science and Nature, you have an an album, I guess, with Scavenger Hunt Photo Contest 2024 finalists with those winning entries.
• 1:00:01
  David McClelland: And I was taking a look at them before we started recording today, Dan.
• 1:00:06
  David McClelland: And well, uh, as I said to you, I was I was lolling, I was mouth a gogger at some of these images because there's a variety in there.
• 1:00:16
  David McClelland: There is beauty and there is humor as well.
• 1:00:21
  David McClelland: Let's talk about the winning image, perhaps, first of all, that went on to the issue-dated uh October 2024 issue.
• 1:00:28
  David McClelland: And that was by Finlay, aged 16.
• 1:00:31
  David McClelland: And what you talk about there, about composition, about colour, about an image that really is going to punch through on the newsstand.
• 1:00:38
  David McClelland: I think that Finlay's image really had that in spade, didn't it?
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was it was totally standout from from the rest of the the pack, really.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like as you say, the the in the whole, the pictures were incredible.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: They were really phenomenal.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: Every year we get great ones.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think this year has been one of the best.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: But Finlay's picture of a kingfisher was just perfect, really beautifully composed.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's caught that moment, that real sort of moment uh of nature that you kind of you can only get with a lot of patience, I think, with wildlife photography.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it's stunning.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, frankly, I'll let you into a little secret, okay?
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the the art director was a little bit concerned about our our promise to put the prize-winning uh picture on the cover.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's the first time we've done it, and he was worried that you know, we wouldn't really get it.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: There are always great pictures, but they wouldn't be like an absolute stunner.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: So he found a way to put it in this great big gilt frame on the cover, and it's gonna look great.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: When we got Finley's photo, we just stripped out the frame.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't need it, it stands on its own and it just looks amazing.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:55
  David McClelland: The image absolutely does the talking there, and the way that the background is thrown very much out of focus, yet you've got the complementary colours there of the bark on the branch that the Kingfisher is sat on with the green in the back.
• 1:02:07
  David McClelland: Yeah, I I think it's uh beautifully composed and it works very, very well as a uh as a cover image.
• 1:02:12
  David McClelland: Just looking at some of the other images on there as well, the ones that that made me made me chuckle, the second prize there, the little frog by Ollie Age 8.
• 1:02:22
  David McClelland: Uh, I'm not quite sure what the frog is.
• 1:02:25
  David McClelland: Actually, is that a a drain or a or a grate by the side of a road that the this frog is the kind of macro frog is is creeping out of?
• 1:02:34
  David McClelland: I I love that.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: What really struck me, I was I was looking again at the uh um the shortlisted just before we we talked to remind myself of them.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I just the the contrast between all the pictures is quite striking.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you've got the first prize, the winner Finley's age 16.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the top end of the of the competition sort of age range.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he, to get that photo, he's obviously got a really good camera, he sat for four hours dressed in a full ghillie suit.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the guy's committed, he knows, he knows what he's doing, and he's obviously got a level of experience of taking photos.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, second prize taken by Ollie, he's age eight, and his story of the picture was he was just walking down the road.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: He saw this little fella poking out of a drain cover, and he snapped it on his dad's, he borrows his dad's iPhone, snaps it on the iPhone.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, what what greater contrast could you have between styles and age and experience?
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, two two brilliant pictures.
• 1:03:33
  David McClelland: It's that sense of intimacy that you get capturing that moment, it's almost taking the frog by surprise in its its environment.
• 1:03:41
  David McClelland: You have to kind of look twice, like I said, to to work out exactly where it's at because you are so up close to it and with the with a drain grate there as well.
• 1:03:51
  David McClelland: The other one that I want to pull out, just in terms of the moods and emotions that these images create, it is Samuel, age 16, a lonely stint.
• 1:04:02
  David McClelland: And there is this bird wading through some shallow water, and it is it's very moody, it's very atmospheric.
• 1:04:10
  David McClelland: The description, lonely stint, also paints a mood onto it as well.
• 1:04:14
  David McClelland: But I think this is a beautifully composed, beautifully coloured image as well.
• 1:04:20
  David McClelland: This is certainly one that struck my eye.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely beautiful.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: As you say, with its with its title, it's really evocative, isn't it?
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I I kind of think that one's quite a mature photograph, really.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like the as you say, the infinity, you can't really see the environment it's in, but it's wading through this uh shallow water, and you can see its perfect mirrored image.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's an absolute beautiful one, and and Ellie was was very very fond of that one as well.
• 1:04:46
  David McClelland: Well, if you want to take a look at these winning entries, then we will put a link to this album in the show notes for today's show.
• 1:04:54
  David McClelland: I urge you to take a look at them and just see how the uh the next generation of uh wildlife photographers are shaping up.
• 1:05:02
  David McClelland: What happens to these images and and to the photographers next, Dan?
• 1:05:07
  David McClelland: Where where else will we have an opportunity to see this work?
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is very exciting, actually.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: Another first for this year's competition.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: All of these winners, the the first and second prize and all the other shortlisted photos, are going to be exhibited at the photography and video show next year.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: All the winners have tickets as well, which is very kind of you guys to provide that for our winners.
• 1:05:33
  David McClelland: Very exciting.
• 1:05:34
  David McClelland: Really looking forward to meeting the photographers behind the seeing their work up front and in person as well.
• 1:05:41
  David McClelland: Next March at the Excel for the photography and video show.
• 1:05:45
  David McClelland: Dan, thank you so much for chatting to us over the last few months and for bringing this competition to our eyes.
• 1:05:52
  David McClelland: For now, Dan Green from The Week Junior Science and Nature.
• 1:05:55
  David McClelland: Thank you so much.
• 1:05:56
  David McClelland: Thank you, David.
• 1:05:56
  David McClelland: It's been loads of fun.
• 1:06:02
  David McClelland: And that is almost all for this month.
• 1:06:05
  David McClelland: Big thanks to all of our guests.
• 1:06:07
  David McClelland: Now, at the top of the show, I mentioned tickets for the in-person photography and video show, which takes place between the 8th and the 11th of March 2025 at the XL in London.
• 1:06:16
  David McClelland: I have up to three bits of good ticket news for you.
• 1:06:20
  David McClelland: First of all, tickets are now available.
• 1:06:22
  David McClelland: Head over to photographyshow.com for more details.
• 1:06:25
  David McClelland: The second bit of good news is that as a listener to this podcast, you can get 20% off of your tickets with the exclusive discount code that is pod TPS25.
• 1:06:38
  David McClelland: That's P-O-D TPS25.
• 1:06:41
  David McClelland: And if you are buying tickets, then please do use that code to get 20% off.
• 1:06:45
  David McClelland: And also so they know that we sent you.
• 1:06:48
  David McClelland: And finally, if you are trade or a professional, then you can get into the show for free.
• 1:06:54
  David McClelland: Details on how to apply for that are on the website too.
• 1:06:58
  David McClelland: Now we love hearing from you.
• 1:06:59
  David McClelland: Keep your messages coming in.
• 1:07:01
  David McClelland: Social media at the photography show on Instagram.
• 1:07:04
  David McClelland: I'm at DavidMcClellandTV on Instagram too.
• 1:07:08
  David McClelland: You can DM me there if you like.
• 1:07:09
  David McClelland: The photography and video show is on Facebook too.
• 1:07:12
  David McClelland: And if you want to drop us a good old-fashioned text message, then you can just tap on the link in the show notes on your mobile.
• 1:07:19
  David McClelland: We'll be back on the first Thursday of next month, December already with more photography and video news and chat.
• 1:07:28
  David McClelland: But for now, bye bye.