Latest / The Photography & Video Show Podcast / 20: Lindsay Adler on loving light and setting targets, Tom Barnes on the impact of AI on creatives in 2025

Transcript

20: Lindsay Adler on loving light and setting targets, Tom Barnes on the impact of AI on creatives in 2025 · The Photography & Video Show Podcast

• 0:10
  David McClelland: Hello and welcome to the Photography and Video Show podcast, your monthly fix of developing camera news and stories from the front line of photography and video.
• 0:20
  David McClelland: It's January 2020 for live.
• 0:22
  David McClelland: I'm David McLelland, and coming up in this month's show.
• 0:27
  David McClelland: We speak with portrait beauty and fashion photographer Lindsay Adler about how she sets her professional targets for the year and about her complete and utter nerdiness about light.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_05: I get excited every time I hear about a new light or a new modifier or new tool, just because it speaks to the nerd in me, and then it's another problem-solving tool in my toolkit.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_05: It's awesome.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_05: I've done entire shoots using lasers.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_05: But there's little like handheld there's about this big DJ lasers that that didn't exist five, six years ago.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_05: Or that was in budget at least, and now they're, you know,$1,300 and I can do these awesome laser shoots.
• 1:10
  David McClelland: Plus, we have some details on how you can save money on your tickets to the in-person photography and video show taking place in London from the 8th to the 11th of March 2025, along with some fresh updates on who and what will be there.
• 1:27
  David McClelland: But first, here to help us see in the new year is award-winning portrait photographer and co-host of the Exposed Negative podcast, is Mr.
• 1:35
  David McClelland: Tom Barnes, everybody.
• 1:36
  David McClelland: Hello, Tom.
• 1:38
  David McClelland: Hi David, how are you doing?
• 1:39
  David McClelland: I'm very well, thanks.
• 1:40
  David McClelland: Uh great to see you.
• 1:41
  David McClelland: We've we've known one another for I want to say around about a decade now, largely thanks to the photography show.
• 1:50
  David McClelland: And you know, I I've had the pleasure of appearing in your viewfinder multiple times, I think, whether I'm sucking sour sweets or stuffing my mouth full of marshmallows, uh, I've still got some of those shots, you know.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, we've had some fun, haven't we?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's been honestly, it's uh you're still in my phone as David Lovely Guy.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, bless you.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it's been a it's been a the pleasure has been all mine.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you, and thank you very much for chatting to me uh so much over the over the years we've been doing the show.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been you know, it's always a bit of a highlight when it when you come around.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, there he is, there he is.
• 2:23
  David McClelland: Bless you.
• 2:24
  David McClelland: Well you are etched into my brain as Tom, lovely photographer.
• 2:28
  David McClelland: Uh and and amazing photographer as well.
• 2:30
  David McClelland: And you know, your your portrait um portfolio, it's it's always been impressive, but just looking through your Instagram now as well as on your website, I'm seeing projects with the likes of Dame Judy Dench, lots of Jeremy Clarkson, Davina McCall, David Badil, Kristin Scott Thomas.
• 2:47
  David McClelland: It is an enviable portfolio, and it seems to me as though your profile has shifted up even another gear lately.
• 2:55
  David McClelland: I mean, uh you're you're doing all right, Tom, I think.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh do you know what it's funny, isn't it?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think photographers we always suffer from imposter syndrome, but that's it that's ever so kind of you to say, and I massively I'm I'm terrible at accepting compliments.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So as you can see, probably going bright red and going thanks ever so much.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, no, it's been it's been a really busy couple of years, still working as hard as I as I ever can, and um and I'm still loving it.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So as long as as long as I can keep doing those things, you know, I'll I'll keep this as my career, I think.
• 3:25
  David McClelland: And as we talk about with with Lindsay in our feature interview later on, there's a that that there's a good balance of obviously the editorial stuff, the commercial stuff, but you still ardently pursue personal projects as well, don't you?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: I do, yeah, absolutely.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Personal projects are um they're so important.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that I I would argue that that frustratingly, last year I think as I was so busy with jobs, I only got a couple done.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but for me the the personal work is just the it's the it's the most fun.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's the it's the bits that I most enjoy about the job.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um and I think they're just so important.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's always great to be able to show people, hey, look what I've been up to.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is this is un not untainted, because that's a bit unfair, but it's it's this is purely me.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is this is what I stand for, this is this is my work, this is my style, and this is what I produce when it's on my own, uh away from any sort of brief.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think show being able to show that sort of stuff, your true work, is is so important.
• 4:23
  David McClelland: And I guess a good marker of success, no, no, not a marker of success, but a nice thing to happen would be that if you go away and do one of the personal projects and then a paid project comes along and goes, We really like that thing that you did in a rubbish dump in South America or something, just finding the characters there.
• 4:43
  David McClelland: How about would you be able to bring that to this project that we're working on now?
• 4:48
  David McClelland: So, in essence, your personal projects turned then into some bread and butter work too?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: So um where there was a shot I did of uh fireman in 2017, 18.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that shot alone has got me probably 10 or so jobs, and it's it's it always pops up in decks.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: When I get sent a deck being like, oh, you know, this is the this is the job are you interested in, it pops up that that shot.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, that it's it's always so important to be able to do uh that sort of thing.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right, when it leads to commissions, obviously that's that's the dream scenario.
• 5:28
  David McClelland: Now for our December episode, we did a 2024 retrospective with Angela Nicholson.
• 5:35
  David McClelland: Looking back at all of the cameras and and big news stories from last year, but now we're into January.
• 5:40
  David McClelland: I feel we should look forward as best as we can to what 2025 has in store.
• 5:46
  David McClelland: Uh, first of all, though, and and this is genuinely a breaking news story as Tom and I are recording right now, and who knows, it might even suggest what the future might look like throughout the rest of this year.
• 5:56
  David McClelland: But the news story is that Getty Images and Shutterstock have just announced a merger.
• 6:01
  David McClelland: It's a 3.7 billion with a B,$3.7 billion deal.
• 6:07
  David McClelland: It obviously still needs to go through all of the um regulatory stuff, but it's a big deal for the imaging industry.
• 6:14
  David McClelland: And the context here, of course, and this is Thomas, I think is what probably what we want to lean into here, it is this massive rise in text to image generative AI services.
• 6:26
  David McClelland: Um, and the the extent to which they pose a threat to traditional, well, traditional work, and in this case, traditional image library models.
• 6:34
  David McClelland: So perhaps one way of looking at this is that Getty and Shuttestock are coming together to try and strengthen their position in some way before some of their key revenue streams are disrupted.
• 6:44
  David McClelland: Um, but on the on the way in which AI is disrupting us, we look forward to 2025.
• 6:51
  David McClelland: What's what's your view?
• 6:52
  David McClelland: You've been watching uh and chatting about how AI has cropped up in the last two and a half years, generative AI specifically, and about how all of the big service providers have tried to have their angle on it, and about how those of us who work on the receiving end, depending on how you want to look at it, of the creative industries are maybe impacted by it.
• 7:13
  David McClelland: What's been your take on it and what do you see potentially happening in 2025?
• 7:19
  David McClelland: Maybe now that the technology and the capabilities is settling down a little bit and just kind of going through an incremental phase rather than a massive disruptive capability phase?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's it's a really interesting technology.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's um we're currently in another dot-com boom.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think there is a uh a shakiness in investors of pretty much every major company who has bought AI in.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're not seeing the returns that they were promised.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: The uh there's a lot of um AI's got this huge amount of promise, and actually not a lot of it is that useful.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a there's obviously a lot of um services that are useful uh and for me I use it all the time.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm able to now dictate voice notes and then have that transcribed into uh Instagram posts using my my tone of voice and stuff like that.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it and it's really great, but there is uh if you look at um I don't I don't want to talk about specific brands by name, uh obviously, uh, but there have been uh a couple of brands who maybe have bought it in at a as a bit of a rush job and it has been less than impressive.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that maybe there are a lot of people who are suddenly going, actually, that's not a very useful implementation of it.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are on the flip side though, there have been some implementations that have been super useful and I use them all the time.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um whether I'm that worried about generative AI um and and it cannibalising photography maybe as an industry, I I don't know how genuinely worried I am about that.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's going to be a quite a lot of um there quite a lot of it being used, but arguably, and this is maybe to do maybe why the merger has come across, is how much of that would be commission shoots.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I would argue that maybe that the stock might be taking a real a real hit.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah but you know if you've got um small restaurants who are maybe independent, who maybe don't have um uh you know uh maybe some branding acumen and they just need a picture of an English fry-up that they can that they can do that.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's I I feel that maybe I hate to use the phrase, but like maybe low-hanging fruit uh might be um affected.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: But from the high-end stuff, I I'm not necessarily that worried so much.
• 9:45
  David McClelland: Yeah, and I've spoken about this before about how I found myself not necessarily changing my behaviour, but certainly using um uh text-to-image services when storyboarding, for example, I needed an image of a vacuum cleaner cleaning up some broken glass for uh an editorial project I was working on just for the storyboard.
• 10:07
  David McClelland: I had to shoot this thing myself, but I didn't want to, you know, go down that line just just for the storyboard phase.
• 10:12
  David McClelland: And try as I might, in the normal places where I would have looked for the places where I had subscriptions and so on, absolutely nothing at all.
• 10:20
  David McClelland: Could not find anything.
• 10:21
  David McClelland: And it's quite a rare thing.
• 10:23
  David McClelland: I remember the the Google whack term back in the day if you could search for something on Google and only get one response.
• 10:29
  David McClelland: Was that hang on, was that was that uh Dave Gorman, the guy?
• 10:31
  David McClelland: Yes, it was.
• 10:32
  David McClelland: There we go, yep.
• 10:33
  David McClelland: There we go.
• 10:33
  David McClelland: Gosh, showing our age a little bit there.
• 10:35
  David McClelland: But um it's it's the same sort of game that you can play with uh searching, sifting through stock libraries as well.
• 10:40
  David McClelland: But tries them are, I could not find anything.
• 10:42
  David McClelland: And then I thought, well, hang on a moment, why don't I give some of these tools a try?
• 10:46
  David McClelland: And I mean, it was about 45 seconds later.
• 10:49
  David McClelland: I I think I got an immediate uh immediate return on that.
• 10:52
  David McClelland: And then for storyboarding type workflows where it was anything outside of the ordinary and not something I could lash up myself here, um, it it was a real a real no-brainer.
• 11:03
  David McClelland: But like you say, I think that's the kind of low-end stuff, isn't it?
• 11:07
  David McClelland: That's the low-hanging fruit that you that you talk about.
• 11:09
  David McClelland: Do you see any applications in the higher-end stuff where AI is could disrupt, or is it really that the creative vision and the creative execution is so specific that it's going to be very difficult for AI to really I guess easily muscle in at the moment?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not sort of here and there.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: I th the the thing is for me is that AI is very useful in being able to get rid of the tasks that I never enjoyed doing anyway.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And things like that.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I I truly believe that AI is here to stay, and that is a brilliant thing, actually for all of us, uh, as far as if you can utilize it to get rid of the tasks you absolutely hated doing.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe AI should be used to replace the jobs that people loved doing and that it and that gets rid of creativity.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because at some point, that with if you know if you decrease the amount of creativity and increase the need for AI to constantly be fed with new material, at some point AI will start feeding AI.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you only need to look at Instagram and Meta, who have now started putting AI generated profiles on their platform, to realise that maybe that's an interesting uh thing that probably not that great.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I there's there's also going to be a um you know a just a constant need for brands to come across as genuine, and you know, the the authenticity and stuff like that, and you have to hire real people to do that.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can't uh show models from different different ethnicities and say you're trying to support the um, you know, you're trying to support that community by um you know AI generating their their images, you know, the way you truly support that the um those people is by but you know paying them and you know really and really kind of you know pay the models.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't just try don't AI generate it and and try and kind of be virtue signalling.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's too completely the wrong thing to be doing.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's gonna be a lot of this, and and that's what I kind of meant with um with the uh kind of the dot-com boom comparison, is it feels very much like everyone's scrambled to get involved with it, and I think now hopefully it's gonna calm down a bit, people start using it for the things that actually you know it can be really useful for and getting rid of the jobs people hate and become more efficient and be able to move faster and stuff like that, but at the same time, hopefully, not getting rid of the genuine creativity and the parts of you know the job that people most enjoy.
• 13:45
  David McClelland: Yeah, we talk about the hype cycles of technology, don't we?
• 13:48
  David McClelland: And you've got that, you know, the the different phases in there, you've got the peak of inflated expectations right at the top, and then the big fall-off in the graph is the trough of disillusionment.
• 14:00
  David McClelland: And to to come back to your uh dot-com boom, after a boom, after a bubble, there comes a burst a little bit.
• 14:08
  David McClelland: So maybe, maybe what you're saying is that 2025 might have a little bit of a um a reset, a rebalance, um a rebalance is probably a good way to put it.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's gonna be a burst, and I don't think there's gonna be a real drop-off, but I do think it's gonna stabilize in its use, and I think it's gonna become more commonplace, and I think it's gonna become uh a part of everyone's tool set.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and actually, when you do start to embrace various aspects of it, it can be so useful.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: But the the generative stuff, I think you're right, like when you were talking about the mood board and stuff like that.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've used it for my mood boards um and things like that, and it can be really helpful, um, but it's not commissioned work, and it's it it it is fairly straightforward and easy to create these things, and I feel that uh some people are just easily impressed with with some things, and actually a lot of it is is rubbish.
• 15:05
  David McClelland: I've described the first easily impressed, and to that point I've certainly described the first 12 months or so of generative AI, and I've been guilty of this as well as the party tricks.
• 15:16
  David McClelland: It's hey mum, look what my new gadget, my new XYZ can do, and you know, I've had people singing along to ABBA type songs that have been created in the style of and all of these fun things, brilliant, but then at some point you've got to get you've got to say, so what?
• 15:34
  David McClelland: Party tricks are all well and good, but then where does the value come in?
• 15:38
  David McClelland: And I think that is the um yeah, the the the the rebalancing, the recalibration about what does it mean.
• 15:45
  David McClelland: The other thing, of course, though, the other thing is, and and it it it's not the sexy stuff as we as we look forward to 2025, but there's also the and I think it was a word that you used as well, the adoption, the acceptance.
• 15:58
  David McClelland: It's the fact that there was for from many creatives and people in lots of industries, a oh, I don't want to have anything to do with this with this AI stuff.
• 16:08
  David McClelland: It it feels unclean to me, it feels unsafe.
• 16:11
  David McClelland: Um, but actually there comes a point where I think people are going to go, okay, well, it's still here.
• 16:17
  David McClelland: I can now start to see some utility in it, I can start to see some value in that.
• 16:22
  David McClelland: So maybe what might change during 2025 isn't the technology itself necessarily.
• 16:28
  David McClelland: I think that the party tricks we've sort of seen, and things have settled down to this phase of incremental improvement, perhaps a little bit.
• 16:37
  David McClelland: So we're not gonna see the big disruptive changes that we have over the last two and a half years or so.
• 16:42
  David McClelland: But what we will see changing are going back to the Getty and Shutterstock story, about businesses recalibrating around what it is that they offer in an AI future.
• 16:53
  David McClelland: Now they know a bit about what it's gonna look like.
• 16:56
  David McClelland: But really, it's about us, us that are gonna change, about how more and more of us are going to start dipping our toes in, finding out that actually AI doesn't necessarily burn us and that it can be useful and that kind of well, hopefully a rising tide lifts all boats kind of things.
• 17:13
  David McClelland: Ultimately, we will all benefit from it.
• 17:16
  David McClelland: We'll be able to do our creative work faster, more efficiently, do more of it, earn more whatever, and that the general standard of work might rise as well.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: The floating boat thing, I I think the trouble is we are currently looking at an economy which isn't in a very good state.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're currently looking at a worldwide uh not necessarily a turn down, but it seems to be a bit of a stagnation.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, wage growth here in the UK is is pretty much flatlined.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're looking at uh we're looking at a perfect storm of so many different characters, um, or fit or um so many different um factors that actually I think it's more than just the AI.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: What I what I would love is that uh things start to pick back up again and the productivity uh kind of increases and and the the economy starts getting going again.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm I do think that AI has got a huge part to play in that.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I just believe that um it's just got to help the current workforce work more efficiently or or or be able to just work faster or harder or or better and make life easier, hopefully, for the for the end user, um, but also just to really just I don't know, it's my but my thoughts about AI is it's it's so conflicting because it's obviously deep down as an artist you don't want text to um you know image generation, really bluntly.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I know it's getting better and better at the same time, you know, there was a a very well-known brand who released a Christmas ad uh that was fully AI automated and the the backlash to it was almost exclusively negative, you know, and it was and it was wildly negative as well.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I think that there's gonna be um AI is definitely gonna have its place, it's here to stay.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're listening to this and going, Oh, you know, I still don't like it, you kind of go, it's not going anywhere.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: It is now gonna be become part people uh part of people's workflows, and you you really should look into it.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to get left behind.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the trouble is on the flip side, do I believe that the image generation is going to become so good that it replaces genuinely creative humans?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I again I d I don't know.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I would like to think not.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I don't know.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do my my thoughts on it for this year.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I hope I hope that it does all just kind of stabilise and become a bit more of a a tool in our work shop, uh, really, or an arrow in our um arrow in the bow, um, rather than something that's going to cannibalise us.
• 19:54
  David McClelland: I was chatting with a VFX artist who's based in the same um studio complex uh where where I'm based, uh, and I may have mentioned this before, but uh uh he he put something on his LinkedIn, um he'd been playing around with uh with AI alongside um motion, artifacts, whatever it was he uses, and I've you know, just having a bit of link LinkedIn banter, how do you feel in the VFX space about about generative AI?
• 20:20
  David McClelland: And he says, look, um it's a power tool.
• 20:24
  David McClelland: And if you are a trade and you choose not to use a power tool, then it ain't gonna work, you aren't gonna be an efficient tradesman, and it's the same as in the creative industries where he works.
• 20:35
  David McClelland: You learn to use a power tool pretty quickly because it's just gonna make you better at your job or more productive, more efficient, and maybe better at your job as well.
• 20:43
  David McClelland: So his view on looking at AI as one would a power tool in a trade, I think, was um was very um thrifty way of putting it, but but very effective.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a great way of putting it though.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's for for me, I've been able to use it in in so many things, you know.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: To give you a really boring example, is I wasn't pleased with any of the file delivery systems that were available to us as photographers.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, none of them really worked for me.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I decided that I wanted to create my own.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I knew how I wanted it to look, and I knew how I wanted it to function, and I found an app that can run on the back end of it.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I swapped my hosting over to one that accepted that, and then I used Chat GPT to help me build uh the basically the front end of that system.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: So and it and it's for things like that, you know, there would be no point in me uh, you know, calling my web guy because uh he's currently, you know, sick to death of me because of all the other stuff.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not put him out of work because it's it's simply I don't think it's something he'd take on because it's such a minor job.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: But for something like me, I you know, I used to build websites, so I could I could actually just do it myself.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: But that's taken a four hour job for me and taken it into about an hour.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you go, well With that three hours, I've then been able to schedule loads more emails, or I've been able to write a blog post, or I've been able to do all you know all this other stuff.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so for me, I I think I just I just see so many advantages to it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that but then again, all my advantages that I talk about are away from the image generation side.
• 22:19
  David McClelland: Look, I I I'd love to have you back another time on the show to do actually do a deep dive into your work and into your journey, but we'll have to leave it there for now.
• 22:27
  David McClelland: If people want to find out more about what Tom Barnes does, where can they where can they go?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: So uh my co-host Greg would be uh cross with me if I didn't mention the podcast.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I like you said earlier, I run the exposed uh negative podcast with with Greg Funnel.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: I am obviously a photographer in my own right, so that is very imaginative.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: It is tombarnes.com, and then my Instagram is tombarnes.com do t-c-o-m.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then that's basically it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh that's that's where I'm at.
• 22:56
  David McClelland: Hope to catch up with you in March in London at the photography and video show.
• 23:01
  David McClelland: Bye for now, Tom.
• 23:02
  David McClelland: Thanks a lot.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for having me on.
• 23:06
  David McClelland: Lindsay Adler is a New York-based portrait photographer specialising in fashion and beauty.
• 23:12
  David McClelland: An educator and author too.
• 23:14
  David McClelland: Her books include the De facto industry handbook, The Photographer's Guide to Posing, as well as a co-author credit on the cheekly titled Shooting in Shitty Light.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_05: Fashion photography, I think, in regardless of the photographer, is a state of aspiration.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_05: Like in the work, there's something that you're meant to reach for.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_05: And it depends on the photographer what that aspiration is.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_05: So, for example, uh, some photographers, when you look at it, when you look at their work, there's a feeling of freedom.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_05: Like you you see that in their work, that's freedom and adventure and youth.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_05: And so it is meant to connect with the viewer to aspire to look or feel like that, which is why it can blend art and commerce together.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_05: And then for beauty photography, you know, a subset of fashion photography, of course, is the aspiration of that aesthetic.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_05: But in today's beauty photography, if you look at it a lot, there is a lot of authenticity in the work and it's not fitting into uh typical beauty standards.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_05: And so there's an aspiration to maybe feel free, like that person, to be yourself.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_05: And so, yeah, I think aspiration is probably a big part of how I see the overarching common themes of fashion and beauty photography.
• 24:31
  David McClelland: And do you feel as though that's changed in the time that you've been part of the fashion photography scene?
• 24:37
  David McClelland: That aspiration, the authenticity piece that you mentioned there for sure.
• 24:42
  David McClelland: When I go back to when I first dipped my toes into the photography world in general, but particularly that the portrait world, the conversation was rife around retouching, around uh unauth and unauthentic inauthentic uh body image, for example.
• 25:00
  David McClelland: We've moved away from that to something else now.
• 25:02
  David McClelland: That feels like it's a good move.
• 25:03
  David McClelland: Is that your experience too?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_05: I think that there are more photographers that their work represents different types of aspiration.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_05: So I don't think very much in the photography world, all of those body standards and beauty standards still exist, but it has expanded to include more things.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_05: And there are photographers that specialize in whatever it may be.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um, there are certain photographers that their entire work is about uh diverse gender and uh body types, gender expression and body types, and that's what their work is.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_05: And then there's other brands who want, certain brands want nothing to do with that photographer and what their aspiration is.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_05: So I think that it has expanded, but it doesn't mean that everyone embraces that.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_05: I will also say I was having a uh discussion with my partner the other day.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_05: Um I would say pre-pandemic, there was a big movement towards body positivity.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_05: And this is a whole different discussion.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_05: But uh now with uh what is it, what are they called?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_05: GLP ones and smleg latitudes.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I think we're swinging back the other direction.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_05: So we'll see where that goes in the future.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_05: But I certainly do not see as many diverse body types on the runway.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_05: You do see more diverse uh gender expressions, for example.
• 26:20
  David McClelland: Let's come on to changes later on, perhaps, around how things have changed since the pandemic.
• 26:25
  David McClelland: There's a lot of uh cultural world changes that have taken place over the last uh four, five, or six years or so.
• 26:32
  David McClelland: But let's look backwards first of all, though, Lindsay, because you began your photography journey as as an early teen, but you didn't land on fashion photography f fashion photography for a good few years.
• 26:43
  David McClelland: Tell me about young Lindsay making her first pictures with her camera.
• 26:49
  David McClelland: Who who were you back then?
• 26:50
  David McClelland: What were you what were your aspirations?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I will tell you my motivations first, because I think the aspiration and motivation, the way that they're intertwined is I didn't know what type of photography I want to do.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_05: As a teenager, you don't know who you are, obviously.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_05: Um so of course you're going to, or many people don't, most don't.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but the one thing I knew is that I love photography.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_05: And so how that would manifest would be different.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_05: But um, I have always been a very type A personality, uh, very intense, uh, very driven, uh, very focused, endlessly focused on what I want.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_05: And so when I decided I wanted to become a photographer, there wasn't a plan B.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_05: It was this is what it's going to be.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_05: And and so uh I really began, I mean, I began my business, like formal business at 15, because that's when I was like, I'm ready to charge people for this.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and it wasn't, I'm gonna be honest, it wasn't driven by necessarily love of art at the time.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_05: It was like, I think what I would say is it was associated with my um identity.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't know who I was, but I knew I was a photographer.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_05: And so let me see where this takes me.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_05: And so I did portraiture, I did weddings, I photographed babies, I did um, I did photojournalism briefly.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_05: I worked for a paper briefly.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and then eventually I saw fashion photography and I didn't think it was a good fit because I'm not a fashionista.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_05: Like I don't, that's not what I'm focused on.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_05: We we discussed before this uh that I uh I basically wore uh like I wore like a blanket robe for the last two weeks uh here because I was in in the house working.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_05: It's not like I always need to feel uh fancy and in designer clothes.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_05: So I didn't think because of that the fashion photography was the right fit for me.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_05: And then what I realized is that fashion photography is an umbrella that allows you to blend art and commerce beautifully.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_05: That's what I'm attracted to in fashion photography, is that I can do the most beautiful or wacky or exploratory images, but they still can have an end use besides just for myself.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_05: They can be for a magazine, they could be for a brand.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and I love that sense of purpose.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_05: I need that in my life.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't, uh as a kid, I wasn't uh I didn't identify as an artist.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I identified as a photographer, which that's a whole other discussion.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but it it by having the umbrella of fashion photography, it gave me permission to explore art because it had a purpose.
• 29:25
  David McClelland: Yeah, that that that purpose is really interesting.
• 29:28
  David McClelland: You know, it's uh the the skill of crafting a call to action in a piece of copy, you know.
• 29:32
  David McClelland: You you can write creatively if you are inspiring somebody to do something or inspiring somebody to feel something or taking them on a storytelling journey from from the kind of business side that you started very, very young, there was always a kind of call to action, a commercial element in there as well, a purpose to it.
• 29:51
  David McClelland: I love that.
• 29:52
  David McClelland: Was there a penny drop moment for you though?
• 29:54
  David McClelland: Was there a shoot?
• 29:56
  David McClelland: Was there an image that you took that when all of those things fell into place from the kind of um people photography, the product photography, the photo journalism, when you go, aha, this is what I want to do?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_05: So probably the image that defined the change was an image I took in college.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_05: And by the way, I did go to school for photography, um, but the school I ended up going to, it was um it was a little bit more focused on photojournalism.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_05: It was technically a communication school.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_05: And so I did some photojournalism, I did some studio, and as I was exploring, I was trying to put together some fashion images.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_05: And I bought these like weird, spirally red and white glasses online.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_05: And I had like this girl from my my um philosophy class that stood in my as my model.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_05: And I like did her makeup and I took the picture and it is clean, bold, graphic, uh red and white.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_05: And I took it and I go, that's that's different.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_05: That's me.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_05: Like I and it wasn't, I hadn't really taken hardly anything else like it before.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_05: And um there was, I can't even remember what the publication was, but there was some publication that went through a bunch of universities, and I don't even remember how, but my image ended up in that, and I was like, I'm doing something right.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_05: And it's the positive reinforcement you get when you we think you stumble upon something and someone gives you a little bit of a nod.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_05: It was not an image that has been in my portfolio for 15 years.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_05: The quality is not up to par, but the idea was there.
• 31:24
  David McClelland: Clean, bold, graphic was how you described that image.
• 31:30
  David McClelland: Um is that how you would describe yourself at that age as well?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_05: Probably to a fault.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_05: Um I mean, it worked out so clearly fine.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um I I look back at some of the things that I did uh in, you know, well, I'm hoping other people relate to this, but you know, early, early to mid-20s.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember when I was getting into uh photo education or going to conferences as far as uh bold, I would just go up to a brand, I'd introduce myself, and I'd be like, you don't know me, but you will.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_05: Uh let's talk about how to work together.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_05: Like I was really obnoxious, but it worked, so it was fine.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_05: Hopefully it was charming.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_05: Um but for sure, for sure I was bold.
• 32:13
  David McClelland: Yeah.
• 32:15
  David McClelland: Um were you any good though?
• 32:17
  David McClelland: I I guess this is the question, you know, we we spoke about that that moment when when it felt right for you, and clearly you got some traction with the image.
• 32:26
  David McClelland: But when do you think that it started to come together for other people and that promise that you made, you don't know me now, but you will, in brackets, hopefully for the good images that I'm making here.
• 32:36
  David McClelland: Yes.
• 32:37
  David McClelland: When do you think you actually started to make the good images?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_05: That is a great question.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's funny because uh um I don't think people have exactly asked me that question.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_05: Because I'll I'll put it this way what you perceive as good images and what the world perceives as good as good images could be very different.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_05: I think in some ways I was lucky to not be aware of how bad I was.
• 32:59
  David McClelland: Naivete is a wonderful quality.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_05: Because I was getting positive reinforcement from the beginning and from adults when I was a kid.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_05: And so I always thought I was miles better than I was.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_05: And so I think maybe uh later on in life that was in somewhat damaging because then I didn't ever I felt like I didn't have a sense of like, wait, am I actually good yet?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_05: Um I I will say when I started to get hired by legitimate brands that could have any photographer they wanted, I felt like I must be good now.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_05: But then fast forward a few years, I looked at some legitimate brands that I thought had terrible photography.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_05: And I go, wait, just because a brand hired you doesn't mean that you're any good.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_05: So um that doesn't exactly answer your question, but I will probably say from when I discovered so when I first picked up a camera for business, let's say like when I was 15, then I would say it was another, let's say like 10-ish years before I felt like I read a true style.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_05: And then when I found a true style is when those images of real quality started to show up.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_05: Because I think when you have a style, you keep digging deeper into it because you you you you scratch the surface.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_05: But if you're going to have an entire body of work around this style, you got to keep digging deeper to explore it.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_05: And then the deeper I dug, the more that I would explore creatively and with ideas.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_05: So I would put it at the 15-year mark into shooting where I had good images, images that I would be not ashamed to show people.
• 34:34
  David McClelland: And in terms of and maybe maybe there's two different takes on your response to this in terms of your own experience, but then as an educator, how you counsel others?
• 34:46
  David McClelland: What about that fitting in piece?
• 34:48
  David McClelland: You know, when you're moving from being a generalist to a specific area like fashion, I don't really want to call it a niche.
• 34:54
  David McClelland: But what was your experience of fitting in?
• 34:57
  David McClelland: Did you get that imposter syndrome or even get the side eye from some who are already working there?
• 35:02
  David McClelland: Or did you find it to be quite welcoming?
• 35:04
  David McClelland: And what's your advice then to other people who maybe are looking to move into, whether it's fashion or sports photography or whatever, to help them not feel as though they don't, they shouldn't be here?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_05: I have uh a couple of different responses and then sections of this.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_05: So, first of all, I was going to talk about photoeducation because my photography and the photo education have been almost equal for my adult life.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um I have shot and had commercial clients and portrait clients as much as I've educated.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_05: Um and there's a couple things around that.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, first of all, the imposter syndrome was always in that, you know, the adage of those who can't teach.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_05: And um, I let that kind of mess with my head for a long time.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and then I went to Amsterdam and I ended up going to Rembrandt's studio.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_05: And when I was there, they talked about how Rembrandt was always teaching people in his studio as a master, as one of the most famous arts of all time.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_05: And I didn't, I didn't have an art study or history background.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_05: So I actually didn't realize how common that was.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_05: And so that that phrase I think came from a place of judgment and jealousy and not actually realizing the history behind artists who educate and lead the next generation.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_05: So that's one part of it I was going to say.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_05: And uh I what I always did is I what tried to teach and educate on something that I thought I had a unique perspective on that I could be authentic about.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_05: And if I wasn't an expert on it, then I wouldn't claim to be.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_05: So the first things that I taught about was actually um uh Lightroom.
• 36:38
  unknown: Right.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_05: Because it was brand new.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_05: And so I really learned it in and out.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_05: And I was I had used it at like my school, high school, my college paper.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_05: So I like learned it.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_05: And then I was teaching older photographers who are just getting into digital asset management, trying to learn out how to handle all these digital files.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_05: And so I could come from a place where I'm helping somebody versus pretending I am the, you know, the expert on this subject and no one else knows it better.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so there's that part of it that I would say um you if you want to share, it's not about being an expert as long as you don't pretend to be.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_05: Um, it's figuring out what you can authentically share because you want to help people, not because you want to do it for ego.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_05: On the photographic side, I actually go back to the exact same thing as I said before.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_05: Is anytime you feel like uh a fraud, go look at the crappy photographers that are doing well.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: Like I just I don't know what to say more than that because what it is is that they're choosing these photographers that perhaps I'm amusing crappy like amusingly, but photographers that I would look at, and there's something that I I find uh repulsive about the work.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_05: There's there's some very, very famous ones.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_05: I'll I'll pick a really good one.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_05: So there's a very, very famous success successful photographer called Jurgen Teller.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_05: Do you know Jürgen Teller's work?
• 37:58
  David McClelland: I'm afraid I do not.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_05: So you'll have to look it up.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um it is meant to be bad.
• 38:05
  David McClelland: Uh okay, okay, good.
• 38:06
  David McClelland: I was wondering if we might be getting into some libel conversations type here.
• 38:10
  David McClelland: Okay, good.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_05: And so the point is, I actually really respect what he does in his work because it is saying something.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_05: So what he does is he photographs celebrities in a way that is not flattering.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_05: It is not put them up on a pedestal, it is not meant to look like a good production.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_05: In fact, uh there was a whole series he did la uh maybe it was a couple years ago, of like celebrities on the street, and he literally was photographing some of A-list celebrities next to a pile of trash.
• 38:37
  unknown: Right.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_05: Literally in the photos.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_05: And you would look at it and go, I hate this.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_05: But he's doing something with the work.
• 38:44
  David McClelland: It's making you feel something by the sounds of it, which is which is odds, which is, you know, which is storytelling.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_05: And it could also be you can read into it in a bunch of ways and say, like, maybe we shouldn't elevate these people.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe that's what he's saying.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe he's saying that these people are just like you and me, or putting them next to the trash pile might be a commentary about the person.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_05: It it's all those sorts of things.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_05: So my point was more leading back to the crappy thing, is if you look at a photo you don't like, maybe instead look at what they're communicating or what they're saying for that brand.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_05: What is it what that was attractive?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_05: I think many photographers like myself are so attracted to technique that we think that's the only thing that there is.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_05: And so if you feel like a fraud or an impostor, instead say, well, what is it that you actually can offer?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_05: And it and it if you don't feel like you're the strongest at technique, then maybe that's not what you're offering first and foremost.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe you're really great at uh it could it could even be your perspective at representing a certain subset of the population, and you can represent them authentically because you are that person.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_05: And that could be what you have to offer.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_05: So that's not a fraud.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_05: You might not be as technically good as this other person, but you can photograph this group in a way that is is authentic.
• 39:57
  David McClelland: Yeah.
• 40:00
  David McClelland: Confidence.
• 40:00
  David McClelland: Sometimes we all have crises of confidence for whatever reason.
• 40:04
  David McClelland: It might just be that we've had a string of bad luck with jobs, or it might just be a a moment that we're going through.
• 40:12
  David McClelland: Is there anything that that I'm I I'm not necessarily wanting to dive into your confidence levels or anything like that, but is there anything that that you counsel others on when they are having those moments when they need a little bit of a pick me up?
• 40:27
  David McClelland: Is there anything that you advise people on to help them, I guess, have that fresh outlook, that that fresh perspective in context and give themselves a bit of a reality check on uh in a positive way on where they are to help them build up their confidence again?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think there are two different answers depending on the type of person.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_05: So I don't think it's a one size fit all fits all.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_05: Um first and foremost, and I don't mean to be negative, but I can't tell you the number of photographers that I have talked to in the past couple of years that are currently struggling because things are changing and it's different.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_05: And I don't mean one or two or three or five or ten or twenty.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_05: Like it is countless that there's so many different changes right now that they're struggling to find their footing.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_05: And these are not just photographers that are struggling to find their footing because they're new.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_05: They're ones that have been in uh had this profession for 20, 30 years.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_05: And so I think we're on precipice of change that has happened over and over again, and it's figuring out how to adapt and just knowing no one has that answer yet.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_05: So it you're not alone in that.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um, the other part that works for me for confidence with within the world of fashion and beauty photography is my creative team.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_05: So I have hairstylists, makeup artists, wardrobe stylists that are wonderful, beautiful artists that are talented and they want to create with me.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_05: I like I take that as a compliment and confidence because they're so talented they could work with a million other people, but they're excited for those days.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_05: And so if I'm feeling uninspired or like, wow, my calendar is a little more open than it should be right now, uh, we do create a play days where we get together and we make art that we want, things that inspire us, or we try to think of it in more of a constructive way.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_05: We'll say, okay, these are the type of clients we'd like this year or in the future.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_05: Let's create images we think would appeal to them.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_05: I as a person do not like to do the, okay, no, I definitely like to complain.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not saying that, but I like to complain followed by let me take an action.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_05: So that's what I'm saying.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_05: Like my calendar is too open.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna complain about it, but then I'm gonna say, okay, let's take a look at what I can do for this.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_05: And maybe just filling it with shooting, but maybe those images will help me book clients in the future.
• 42:53
  David McClelland: Yeah.
• 42:55
  David McClelland: The importance of that network, whether as a as a creative, you have a network of people who work for you, who you collaborate with, or if you are more of a lone shooter, still have surrounding yourself or or finding a network of other people who you can just bounce ideas off, go on those creative play dates, like you say, I think can be really, really important.
• 43:17
  David McClelland: On that uh complaining and finding an action, that that that links into another question that I wanted to ask you.
• 43:25
  David McClelland: Um you describe yourself as a visual problem solver.
• 43:29
  David McClelland: You know, you identify a problem and then you try and solve it visually.
• 43:34
  David McClelland: I want to know what you mean by that, because to all intents and purposes, uh, and you mentioned it there, you've got access to an enviable um amount of resource, equipment, locations, technicians, uh collaborators, and so on.
• 43:47
  David McClelland: So what are the most challenging kind of problems then that you find yourself having to solve?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_05: When I'm on commercial shoots or when I'm working with a commercial client where there's a lot of money on the line.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_05: And there tends to be layers of people.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_05: So there's the client, but then there's also maybe an ad agency.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_05: And then maybe there's a production company.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_05: I feel there are times where I am hurting cats to get them all to actually want the same thing.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_05: Because when there's so much money on the line, if they are not so clear, if it doesn't come out the way they want, I get blamed.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_05: And so yes, that is not necessarily a visual problem solving, but it is problem solving beforehand so that I can solve the problem that they actually have visually.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_05: But if they can't identify what the problem or the goal is, then how can I give them what they want?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_05: And so it is like that half the time.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_05: Trying to like get them to the same place.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 44:50
  David McClelland: And that leads on to what your strap line is now, your your cell line.
• 44:56
  David McClelland: You are a photographer, educator, author, and director.
• 44:59
  David McClelland: So for example, in your commercial work, does your your your problem solving or your value add extend beyond the execution of the shoot itself and and into some of the conceptual elements of the campaign?
• 45:13
  David McClelland: Do you find yourself being more involved in those?
• 45:15
  David McClelland: Take a big step back before we go anywhere near a studio or a model or or an overall concept.
• 45:20
  David McClelland: This is part of the value that I'm able to add based on your vision on your experience.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, absolutely.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um depending on the client, when they approach me, they can want dramatically different things.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_05: So sometimes with the big shoots, they approach me and they basically have laid out what they want.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_05: I've actually had it in so much as they've had a sketch and that's showing the lighting and the pose, and like I've had it that specific.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_05: That is not the majority of the time.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_05: And a lot of the sweet spot of where I find my work is they know kind of what they're trying to achieve and they know they like my style, but they want to lean on me to see what I would do with it.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_05: And so in the commercial realm, uh typically the conversation is the commercial client, whoever that is, so it could be the ad agency, it could be the client, is providing a creative deck.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_05: Their creative deck is just like the it could be specific, but it's the rough of what they're trying to achieve.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_05: Here's the brand, here's the initiative, this is the campaign we're trying to do.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_05: And then they look to me for a response.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_05: And my response is not me talking.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, part of it is, um, but it's called the photographer's treatment.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_05: And so I go back in and I am creating it's like basically like a PDF.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_05: It's a guide of here's what I would do.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm showing the sort of lighting and posing and color choices and and whatnot.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_05: And the reason this works so well for me is because I'm going back to the type A personality uh from high school of it's giving a presentation and it's solving a problem and it's it's telling people like this is this is the um the layout of how this shoot can play play out, which is one of the things I'm really good at.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_05: So, to give you an example, I did a campaign this year.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_05: It was the biggest, the biggest campaign that I did of the year for um a psoriasis company.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, it was pharmaceutical.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_05: So the reason pharmaceutical has money.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it does.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I love that.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_05: So they approached me and they said, We're doing an awareness campaign, and we can't exactly have our brand associated with the campaign.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_05: So it was actually for a pharmaceutical company, but it was for a website that would provide people information about psoriasis, which would eventually get them to the company, but it had to be tangential.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_05: And so you can't I could not mention the brand and I could not use competitive brand colors.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_05: And then the feature was that I would photograph four real psoriasis patients.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_05: And then in the images, they weren't supposed to look necessarily campaign.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_05: Like it wasn't really supposed to look like an ad, but they should be well produced and they should say something about these individuals.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_05: And then they said, So what does this look like?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_05: There's like a lot going on there.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so what we ended up doing is a series of images where we told the stories of each of these people.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_05: I had calls with them.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_05: It would be about an hour long.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_05: Based on those calls, I'd write down concepts for four shots.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_05: I'd then pitch it back to them.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_05: I'd give the the subjects maybe six, seven different concepts.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_05: They'd pick three to four of them, and then we would shoot them.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_05: And it would be some one of them was an artist, one of them was an athlete, one of them was a psychologist.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_05: And so turning who they were into images, but then somehow in those images, including how their battle with psoriasis has and how they've conquered it, has led them to be who they are.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_05: I know that was like kind of a long story, but just to give you the idea of what my visual problem solving really looks like.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_05: Uh versus just where do I place the light, what colors do I choose?
• 48:55
  David McClelland: It's much more.
• 48:57
  David McClelland: Following the kind of commercial line of your work, tallying that with an area of my work, uh, another strand around investigative reporting and journalism, what we say is follow the money.
• 49:08
  David McClelland: Okay.
• 49:10
  David McClelland: And and and very often in in in reporting and investigative journalism, that's exactly what you need to do to get to find out what's really happening here.
• 49:18
  David McClelland: And to an element within the arts, um that's also a thing too, because we're chasing the next paycheck after all.
• 49:25
  David McClelland: But the problem is, is it not, that it's very simply just to follow the money, but get blown off of course from whatever whatever plan, whatever vision you had for your own career.
• 49:38
  David McClelland: So how do you make sure that while you obviously well we all need to follow the money to a certain extent, you don't get blown off course.
• 49:48
  David McClelland: How do you do you have guardrails that you adhere to that help you decide which jobs to take and which jobs might just be veering too far left at the traffic lights?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_05: So I have so many answers for this because I have so many different ways I think about this.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um I will honestly take any job that reaches a certain pay threshold.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, I will never let it by I mean any, okay.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_05: Like it there are obviously some moral guidelines, but um because even if it is not something that fit my goals or my career or my focus, if they want to pay me above and beyond for that, that buys me time and freedom and flexibility to devote all of the other time into what I actually want to do.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_05: Now, let's just say I have a good example is a client that I had uh was uh Pampers.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_05: And I would never show that work on my site.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_05: You I mean, you've never seen it.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_05: I'll sometimes go into like a a Walmart or whatever and point and be like, I took that picture.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I wouldn't use it for marketing, but I wouldn't let it blow me off course.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_05: But Procter and Gamble is a major major brand that has good budget.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_05: And if at one point I found that they were hiring me to shoot pampers over and over again, and my schedule was getting filled up so that I'm having to turn down other work, that is a totally different story.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_05: And then my prices would raise because if you want to it's like what at what threshold do I get less work from that, but it's worth my time so that I can focus elsewhere.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um so I think it's a matter of not letting it get in the way of what brings you joy and where you actually want your career to be.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_05: But I don't think anyone should feel guilty about taking a well-paid job that buys you time and freedom in general.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so what I try to do is I try to have a list every year of like 25 dream clients.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_05: Those are the ones I'm working towards.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_05: Those are the ones that I would like to have.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_05: They're the ones that I I think my aesthetic fits well with.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, those are the ones that I'm gonna try to make connections for or market to.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_05: And then I work towards those, but whatever else comes in the way, it doesn't mean it doesn't actually get in the way.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_05: It comes along the way and then lets me spend more money marketing or time towards them.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_05: So balance is my answer.
• 52:20
  David McClelland: Aaron Powell As we're recording this right at the beginning of January, you're talking about setting your targets for the year ahead 2025.
• 52:27
  David McClelland: These sounds like if not necessarily New Year's resolutions because they always seem to fail, but New Year targets, new year goals are kind of theme for the new year.
• 52:36
  David McClelland: And I think many of us could certainly uh do with making a list.
• 52:40
  David McClelland: And then to your point, having some actions.
• 52:42
  David McClelland: Brilliant.
• 52:43
  David McClelland: I've got that list of clients who I want to work with.
• 52:46
  David McClelland: Now, for each one of those, what is the next step?
• 52:48
  David McClelland: What is the next step?
• 52:50
  David McClelland: When am I going to execute on those actions?
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I I only I don't work well without scheduling things.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_05: So I actually usually put a day a month, which is not a big deal, a day a month on my calendar dedicated to towards those 25.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_05: And 25 is not overwhelming.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_05: And it doesn't mean I don't do other marketing.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_05: I'm constantly doing other marketing, but it's a day a month towards, all right, let me let me circle back around with those people, let me send out another uh promo to those particular brands, let me research, let me schedule uh to shoot some images that would appeal to those brands.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_05: But if I don't put it on my calendar, it doesn't happen.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's four months in advance.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm a I'm perhaps an overscheduled person, but I like it.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_05: You should see my calendar.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_05: It's intense.
• 53:34
  David McClelland: I think sometimes that's when having a network of people are, you know, even if it's just an inner circle of people, those accountability buddies who you can share these aspirations with, share these kind of target client lists, and then hold each other accountable when, you know, on your monthly call, uh, did you get in touch with Proctron Gamble, Nest Slave, Vogue, L, whatever it is?
• 53:56
  David McClelland: Oh, I haven't done it yet.
• 53:57
  David McClelland: It's not just yourself you're answering to now, you're answering to a group of your peers who you are also holding to account as well.
• 54:03
  David McClelland: I find those circles to be really, really helpful.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we were talking uh earlier about Brooke, uh Brooke Shaden.
• 54:09
  David McClelland: Yes.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_05: And uh I try to do that to her.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_05: I try to make I try to do the business goals and say, Brooke, you should do this.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_05: And then she does the opposite for me of Lindsay, have you uh filled your soul recently?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_05: Like, have you done something for yourself?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_05: So she um Brooke's one of my closest friends, uh, for example, she's unfortunately or fortunately got me addicted to uh uh romanticy.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_05: Which is I would never ever like give myself time to read or to do hobbies, or I would just work, work, work.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_05: And she's like, Lindsay, you you have to do something to reward yourself.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_05: And so um, I was also going to say, obviously, we're talking about business and photography.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_05: It's important to have those people that uh help keep you accountable, but then also keep you accountable of like is what you're doing in general making you happy?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_05: And that could be the type of photography you're doing, or could literally just be life.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so I I I keep those friends around as well.
• 55:06
  David McClelland: We last chatted in our TV studio at the photography and video show in Birmingham in 2019, and I I remember back then your your positivity, your enthusiasm, your your verve for work and for life back then.
• 55:20
  David McClelland: I found it very infectious.
• 55:21
  David McClelland: And what it seems like yesterday, Lindsay, it was almost six years ago, and since then the 2020s have happened.
• 55:29
  David McClelland: There's we've seen a global pandemic, we've seen, well, generative AI and dare I say it, in many corners of the internet, a distinct change in the tone of online culture and conversations.
• 55:41
  David McClelland: Um in in what ways have the last five or five or six years since we last spoke changed you and your work?
• 55:49
  David McClelland: Have they have they changed?
• 55:51
  David McClelland: Have you have you changed in that time or are you still doing the the Lindsay thing?
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_05: I feel compelled to say that I've changed, but in some ways I I I I think that's not not genuine.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_05: Um because I think the biggest change would be that I force myself to take a little more personal time, um which is nothing to do with business or success, it's just more personal success.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_05: Um, because I think I really did hit my stride well.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_05: Like my my best year was uh 2022.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_05: Came out of the pandemic, and everybody, every brand had money to spend.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_05: And so I burned out in 2022.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_05: I shot and I worked and I did not breathe.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_05: And then those same funds didn't exist the next year in 2023.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_05: The companies didn't have that.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_05: And so then I looked at myself and I was panicked.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_05: What am I doing wrong?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_05: I like last year was so much better.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_05: And then I was less happy.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and so I think my biggest change was more uh trying to separate productivity and money and those things from happiness or self-worth and realizing just how much these things ebbed and flow.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_05: And uh so I think my biggest change has actually been uh to reel myself back in from being as driven as I've always been and to maybe enjoy life a little bit more.
• 57:22
  David McClelland: That's good to hear.
• 57:24
  David McClelland: We are looking forward to enjoying you visiting the photography and video show in London in what is sort of a matter of weeks now.
• 57:33
  David McClelland: Um what can you share?
• 57:35
  David McClelland: So, okay, so it's still two or three months away, but uh what can you share about what you will be sharing in London from the 8th to the 11th of March?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so uh we're still ironing out the final touches on what it will really look like.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, but I will quite likely be teaching creative lighting.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_05: Um I love light.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_05: I can't say that like any more strong.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_05: Like I always tell people that it's like candy.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_05: You know, when you see candy you love in your mouth waters, that's actually how I feel towards beautiful lighting.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 58:06
  David McClelland: Um, that's some weird sort of synesthesia you've got going on there.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_05: Well, that's a beautiful light.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like, oh my God, that's amazing.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_05: So when I teach about lighting, it I I feel like every spark in my brain is going off.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_05: It makes me so excited.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_05: And when I see people make a connection.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_05: And then also when I see people feel like, oh, I don't have to do this one thing that at some point someone told me was the right way.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_05: Like that's if there's one of the things that I want to had aimed to change about the photography world, is it is completely fine to learn the essentials, the standards that do a great job.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_05: But then because someone once told you this is the way the masters do it, this is the way to do it, and you stay there and you don't evolve, that's when people don't have longevity.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_05: And so my goal is when I teach these classes is not to be like, okay, now this creative lighting, you need to go put in all your work.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, no, I want you to make one connection that then introduces something.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_05: So on your next shoot, you're excited, you're evolving, you're trying new things, you're finding your next new thing.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_05: So that's what I hope people get out of my lighting classes.
• 59:12
  David McClelland: And just on that, on that topic of about lighting and about knowing the standards, but that understanding the rules if there are such things, but then making your own rules, would it be fair to say that the that the technology itself, that the lighting technology itself is is also changing?
• 59:28
  David McClelland: There are new types of lights, whether it's those tube lights or whatever else, that are also changing the rules and creating new opportunities as well.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, if you would have asked me probably even pre-pandemic, I'm trying to put a timeline on it.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't shoot continuous light.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_05: And now I use it all the time because I love the RGB lights and how much control I can get over color.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_05: When you look at my work, it just screams color.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_05: And so it's an entirely new tool.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_05: And it does behave differently, uh, especially the LED lights.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_05: They're not acting the same way.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_05: So there's that.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and then like I've done entire shoots using lasers.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_05: But they're these little like handheld, like there's about this big DJ lasers that that didn't exist five, six years ago.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_05: Like, well, or that was in budget at least, and now they're, you know,$1,300 and I can do these awesome laser shoots.
• 1:00:17
  David McClelland: Yeah, I think I've seen some of those.
• 1:00:18
  David McClelland: And um, one of the images that you made, it had this kind of green or yellow kind of podcast shape surrounding your model.
• 1:00:26
  David McClelland: It looks incredible.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and that's like it it's not that I want technology to uh dictate what my images look like.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_05: It frees me to keep trying new things.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_05: And like I get excited every time I hear about a new light or a new modifier or a new tool just because it speaks to the nerd in me, and then it's another problem-solving tool in my toolkit.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_05: It's awesome.
• 1:00:47
  David McClelland: It makes your mouth water.
• 1:00:49
  David McClelland: It's great to hear.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not even joking, it really does.
• 1:00:53
  David McClelland: Lindsay, it's always fantastic to chat with you.
• 1:00:56
  David McClelland: Can't wait to see you in London in a matter of weeks' time.
• 1:01:00
  David McClelland: But for now, thank you for joining us on the Photography and Video Show podcast.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks for having me.
• 1:01:06
  David McClelland: Links to Lindsay Adler's work and indeed to all of the stories we've covered today in the show notes in your podcast app.
• 1:01:14
  David McClelland: And as we said, you'll be able to see and hear from Lindsay at the in-person photography and video show that takes place in London from the 8th to the 11th of March 2025.
• 1:01:24
  David McClelland: And as a listener to this podcast, you can get an amazing 20% discount using the code POD TPS25.
• 1:01:31
  David McClelland: That's POD TPS25 when booking your tickets at photography show.com.
• 1:01:38
  David McClelland: Lots of announcements on there too about who and what will be there.
• 1:01:42
  David McClelland: Hazel from the show tells me there are more brands and exhibitors there this year than there were at last year's show.
• 1:01:48
  David McClelland: Sandisk and Westcott are two of the latest big brands to confirm, along with remembering wildlife too.
• 1:01:56
  David McClelland: Many of the stage and theatre programmes are up on the website now as well, including what's happening on the behind the lens, the inmotion, the editing and post-production and fundamental stages, and more coming up in the following weeks.
• 1:02:10
  David McClelland: More on all of that next month, but for now, until next time, bye bye.