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Stolen by the State · UK Column Radio

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Good afternoon to the UK column viewers and listeners wherever
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: you are in the world. I'm joined today by another
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: lady who's unfortunately had the experience of dealing with a
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: family so a daughter and social services, and really what
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: is incredible for me is that over this year, in particular,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: more and more of these stories have come forward. Now
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I've known for many years that there have been some
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: really troubling incidents with social services in the UK going on,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: but it seems really from probably about six seven months
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: ago that a number of individual cases have come to
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: the four people have got in touch with me, and
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: the fact that we have more people now prepared to
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: do interviews I regard as so important because it's the
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: only way the truth can come out because, as many
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: people know, I'm always saying the thing about the family
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: courts is that their secret. And aside from there being
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: no jury or no press inside the court, normally the
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: court also enforces reporting restrictions on not only mums and
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: dads who get directly involved with the court, but they
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: can also impose those reporting restrictions on other family members.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: So it does take courage to speak out. So today
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I'm joined by Claire contacted me a little while ago.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: We've had quite a long conversation on the telephone, but Claire,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: you decided that you wanted to speak out on this.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to say well done for having the
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: courage to stand up and welcome to the UK column.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, the best place to start is always the beginning.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: How did things unfold for you as a family?
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, so in the beginning. Social Services initially did get
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: involved when my daughter felt pregnant and they wanted to
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: check that things were okay with the relationship. But they
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: checked while her abusive partner was present, and of course
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: she said that everything was fine, and she didn't disclose
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: them that there was serious issues. Then. Obviously her partner
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: had no part in her first baby's life at all.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Obviously my grand daughter. He wasn't interested in being a father,
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: He didn't have a bond whatsoever. But he made it
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: very clear to her that if she were to leave
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: the relationship, every time they had an argument, he would
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: threatened to have her baby taken away from her, which
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: was very concerning. So obviously we had no issues at
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: that point. I was helping raise my daughter's baby with her.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: We were like joint parents together, you know, since she
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: was born. My daughter then got pregnant again, which he
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: did not meet that baby at all. He wasn't interested.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: He'd moved on with someone else, a different partner. So obviously,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: up until then we had no issues. We were just
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: living a happy life, you know, with both the children.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: My daughter reached the point where we decided we wanted
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: a fresh start because he was turning up outside our
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: house revving his motorbike and it was quite distressing from
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: my daughter because she felt like he was trying to
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: get her attention, and we also had unfortunately, his abusive
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: aunt was living opposite us too, and that had caused
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: my daughter to quite a lot of distress because she
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: didn't feel like she was quite free from the abusive relationship.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: So we decided to move, and we thought we'd move
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: hundreds of miles up north to protect the children and
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: to protect my daughter so that we could start a
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: new life, so she could be happy in living peace
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: away from that threat, because obviously he was a danger
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: being around the children with everything that he had done
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: to my daughter in strong violence and coercive control, stealing
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: all her money, also stealing his daughter's money, threatening to
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: kill her, saying that he'd actually planned her death. It
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: was very, very highly concerning behavior. So before we moved,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: my daughter reported the whole thing to the police. She
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: actually had a six hour interview with the police, and
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: the policeman who actually interviewed her was so angry by
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: all the incidences that she reported about their entire relationship,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: but he wanted to go and arrest him there, and
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: then my daughter was too scared of the repercussions because
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: of his aunt they being opposite us, and we hadn't
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: moved at that point, and she didn't know what he
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: was going to do because he was in contact with
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: some very kind of dubious characters as well, which he
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: threatened to obviously, you know, to set onto my daughter
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: in some of their arguments. So my daughter decided not
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: to press charges, but she made it very clear to
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  Speaker 2: the police that we were moving hundreds of miles up
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: north or her protection, for her children's protection, and we
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: were reassured by the police that we were doing the
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: right thing. If he was to find our location, we
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: could get a normalleestation order and it restraining order, and
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: that we were doing the right thing, you know, My
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: daughter asked many times, am I doing the right thing?
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: You know? Is this okay? Can I do this? And
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: she was reassured by the police, yes she can. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: this is good, You're doing the right thing.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Can I just come in there? Can I ask? Did
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: you get a crime number when you reported this? Was
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: everything done properly by the police at the time?
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Was? Yeah, it was reported, there was a crime number.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: We had the PC's name as well and his number,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: and he is sured my daughter it would stay on
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: file and if she ever wanted to press further charges
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: that he could reopen it and take further action against
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: her partner. Right, so we felt very reassured that there
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: was no going to be no issues there.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Right. So you you move hundreds of miles away too,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: which is which is quite a major thing to have
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: to do in order to get away from somebody, But
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: I understand why you'd want to do it. So what
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: happens when you move.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: It was life changing because obviously we'd left behind all
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: the friends that we knew there and our family, and
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: we obviously had to up you know everything. I have
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: adult sons as well who decided to come with us
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: also because obviously they didn't want to be you know,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: left behind. So it was a big life changing thing
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: for all of us. We knew we were making the
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: right decision because we were thinking about the children. We
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: wanted them to live in peace, and I didn't want
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: my daughter live in with the threat of you know,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: constantly worrying that he was going to turn up outside
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: the house to be intimidating, because it wasn't the fact
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: that he didn't want to have contact with the children.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: He wanted to make his presence known in an intimidating,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: you know fashion, outside of our property.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Right, But I believe that your son's also experienced some
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: of his behavior directly.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, he was actually residing in my property for about
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: six months while him and my daughter were trying to
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: make a go of things. And what had happened on
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: one particular day is that he'd been particularly abusive on
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: this day and she'd asked him multiple times to leave
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: the property and he said no. He refused, point blank
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: that he was not going to leave. He was laughing
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: at her, marking her, and then he started throwing her
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: phone and throwing items of wet clothing at her and
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: threatening that he was going to take her baby away.
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  Speaker 2: So at this point, after this had been going on
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: for about half an hour, my son decided I need
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: to go in there and confront him and tell him
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: he needed to leave because he wasn't listening to his
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: sister and obviously he was very concerned about her being
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: abused and her you know, she was very distraught, very upset,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: in which case, a scuffle then broke out between him
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: and my son, and he actually got my son in
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: a neckclock with his legs and started to strangle him
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: because he had these type of skills where he knows
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: the amount of pressure that he can use with his legs.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: To He done some martial arts training.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Fighting, yeah, cage fighting skills he had, so my son
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: was obviously forced to use self defense to get his
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: legs off, otherwise he was going to be strangled, to
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: which case, I then ran into the room and said
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: to him leave the house now and shouted at him.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: He finally left our property, and what he did, he
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: ran straight and called the police on my son and
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: said that my son had assaulted him. So the police
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: did not press any charges against my son. They said
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: it was very clearly self defense and we'd explained the
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: whole incident of what had happened, that he was refusing
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: to leave the house, and obviously my son had had
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: to intervene to go in there, and there was no
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: charges brought against my son.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Right, But this this indicates that this this individual was
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: not only prepared to be abusive to a young woman,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: but he was also prepared to take on a mail
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: as well.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: M hmm, yeah, yeah he was, and he felt quite
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: angry that obviously my son had intervened in protecting your system.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, And just to clarifying the children at this this stage,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: was this this the abuse happening while there was just
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: one child or was there two children?
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the abuse was happening when there was only one
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: child my daughter felt pregnant with, well, technically it was
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: their third one she actually miscarried in between when he
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: was particularly abusive and very unempathetic and uncompassionate when she
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: went through the miscarriage. But when she was pregnant with
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: their third child that she actually gave birth to, she
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: did not see him at all. He was actually he
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: moved on to another relationship with another young girl when
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: she was halfway through the pregnancy.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Right, and that has been that had been part of
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: trying to make a girl with this very difficult relationship.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, because what he would do is every time she
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: broke free, he would try and manipulate her back, and
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: he would say that he'd changed and that he was
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: going to be a good partner and a good father.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Although he never had a bond. He didn't do any
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: of the changing nappeers or feeding bottles, not one single
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: parental duty did he do. And he didn't have a
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: bond either. He wasn't interested from day one with his
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: daughter at all. In fact, he spent all her baby
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: money that she had in her bank account, and also
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: he wouldn't even by her a birthday present on her
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: first birthday, which was quite telling as well.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Right, So, but the time you moved clear how old
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: were the two children then?
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: So my daughter's son was born in the late September
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: and we moved February the following year, so he'd never
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: met his son and he hadn't seen his daughter since
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: May that year when my daughter cut all contact and
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: we moved in the February.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: And how was your granddaughter then?
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: She was two?
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Right, So two very young children. Basically, so you move away,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: you've it's not as though you just disappeared. You'd actually
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: discuss with the police this is the course of action
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: that you thought was best, and they'd agreed with you.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: And of course, as you've said, if there was to
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: be further incidents, then you could take action through the
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: courts to get some protection. So you move huge family
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: upheaval and what happens then, Well.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: We were living really in peace, and my daughter actually
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: started healing because obviously she'd been through quite a lot
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: of trauma through what he had put her through, and
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: she was really concentrating on just being a really good mom,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: you know, to her babies, and you know, being in
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: a new environment and painting it all behind her. She
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: didn't have the threats of the worry about him turning up.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: She felt really safe and at peace, and both her
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: children were really thriving. They were doing really well. They
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: were very healthy, they were never ill. They'd been seen
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: by the help visitor three times, and on those three
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: occasions she'd said that they were both eaten all their milestones,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: they were very healthy, they were thriving, and there was
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: no cause for concern whatsoever, and that they had both
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: had a very loving bond with me, the grandmother, and
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: with their mum. She's obviously took note of that.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: How long were things quiet? Then you move and as
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: far as you're concern things that really settled down and
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: presumably you feel the pressures coming off. How long did
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: that last? Did that peace last for?
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: So we moved in the February, and the first we
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: knew that there was a CAFCASS officer involved was in
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: October that same year, and she randomly turned up at
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: the door and it brought all my daughter's trauma back,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: flooding back because she was wondering what on earth she
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: was doing on our doorstep, because obviously there'd been no
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: cause for concern from the children, and as far as
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: she was concerned, we were living a new life. We
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: told the police, so we had no idea why she
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: was there.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: And Claire, as a family, have you had any any
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: previous interaction with social services caf GAS.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: No, Only when my daughter first got with her partner,
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: because she was underage, they wanted to question whether she's
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: been coerced into unlawful sexual intercourse. So obviously what they
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: did though they actually asked her in the presence of
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: her ex which is not very wise thing to do,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: because if a young girl is being coerced into a relationship,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: she's not going to tell you in front of her
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: abusive partner. So obviously everything was fine and there was
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: no concerns, and she wanted to make a happy family,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: which is obviously ultimately what she did want. She did
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: want them to be a happy family together.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, thank you for saying that. The reason I
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: asked that question is because I know that in many
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: of these cases is where social services get involved in
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: a very direct and I think a lot of families
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: would say aggressive way that there has been previous interaction
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: with them. But in your case, you know, you've explained
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: that actually that that was a relatively normal interaction. They
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: were simply checking everything was okay, although as you point out,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: they didn't do it in a very sensible way, bearing
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: in mind the relationship. Right, So, Kafkass appears and they
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: start to ask questions.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was not a very nice lady. When she
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: came to her doorsteps, she was very cold, and she
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: was very rude to my daughter. And when my daughter
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: burst into tears and was very distraught, visibly distraught, and
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: she said that she'd obviously fled her abuse up. The
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: CAFCASS officer turned around and said to her alleged abuse
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: in a very patronizing tone, which was, in my opinion,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: a disgusting way to behave to someone that's just escaped
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: domestic abuse. To them. Basically, you're basically calling them a
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: liar by saying alleged abuse, you know, in a very
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: patronizing way.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: And it's also incredible, Claire, because cafcass's first duty is
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: the protection of the child. It's not protection of the parent,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: whether it's the mother or the father.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: So she's that Apparently court papers have been served to
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: our next door neighbor, which is very strange because obviously
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: we said, well, we haven't received any court papers whatsoever,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: which we hadn't. We even checked with our neighbor and
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: they said they haven't received any either. My daughter was
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: obviously very concerned about where they'd got our address from,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: and she said that she traced my daughter's address through
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: her benefits.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Well, so why did the calf Cast lady actually say
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: she was there?
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Because it turns out my daughter's ex had actually as
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: soon as he'd been told by his aunt, who obviously
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: lived opposite us at the time he got told that
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: we've moved out, so obviously he then didn't know where
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: we were. So he went to the courts the following
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: month in March, and we moved in February to file
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: the custody of the children to gain control of them.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, so he makes a complaint and then the next
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: minute CAFCASS is involved and they've already started court proceedings
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: in what presumably was going to be a custody battle.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Obviously we didn't know because we hadn't received any of
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: the court papers whatsoever, because they didn't have our address.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: And then the calf CASS officer claimed that one of
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: the court letters had gone to our next door neighbor,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: which is very odd because if they knew that, then
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: why didn't they then serve another one to our address,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: So that in itself was very strange.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Can I just add there, and to formally serve papers,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: they've got to be served to the individual. They can't
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: even be left outside somebody's door. They've got to be
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: put in the hand of an individual. That's what serving
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: legal documents is all about.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: So obviously we had no knowledge. I then decided to
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: try and get some type of advice because you know,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: I was concerned for my daughter and for my grandchildren,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: because you know, they were very happy and settled in
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: their new life, and we didn't you know, we were
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: very concerned about the upheaval of what was going to
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: happen next. We didn't really know what was going to happen.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: So I actually sought legal advice from can I name
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: the people and the people's lawyer, and they advised me
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: not to interact with the social services. They said not
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: to consent to, you know, to any assessments or anything
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: like that, or if they came to our door again,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: to just tell them that we don't consent. So obviously
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: that's what I believed that obviously we were supposed to
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: have done.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: How did that progress? Then this lady disappears, what's the
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: next thing that happens?
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: So then we didn't hear anything for a whole year,
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: and we actually thought that everything was all peaceful and calm.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: We thought, oh good, you know, she's obviously gone, and
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: looked at the police files and discovered that actually there's
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: you know, six hours of statements from my daughter explaining
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: you know, what had gone on with all the abuse,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: So they must have obviously decided that, you know, that
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: he shouldn't be around the children. That's what we thought.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: So we thought, obviously we hadn't heard for a whole year.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: That's a long time to then pass not hearing anything.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: So next thing we heard was July the following year,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: we received a letter through the post from the health
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: visitor saying that she wanted to perform my grandson's two
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: year check. Now what was alarm bells for me is
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: that it was about three months earlier than his second
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: year birthday, which was very strange because as I'm a
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: mother of four, I've obviously had experience with all my
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: children being seen by the health visitor, and they never
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: ever come early for a two year check. It's always
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: when they're two or after they're two, just because otherwise
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: they've not necessarily met all the milestones that they're supposed
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: to be reaching, you know, by the age of two.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: So for us, that was a bit for me, I
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: felt a bit concerned because I thought that was very strange,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: but we decided to allow the health visitors to come
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: anyway to see what it was all about. Why she
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: was coming early. When she turned up in July. She
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: knocked on the door and I opened the door and
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the social worker was hiding down
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: at alleyway. She suddenly ran to the front door and
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: the helpers to look really sheepish, and I said, have
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: you not come for my grandson's two year check? Because
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: I thought it was a bit strange that it's early,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: And she said no, I'm sorry. She said the social
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: worker wanted me to arrange it early so she could
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: see the children. She was desperate to see the children.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: So obviously we were very you know, upset by this,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: and we felt like our trust had been betrayed. So
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: we didn't allow the social work to come into the house,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: but we did allow the health visitor because obviously we
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: didn't have an issue with the health visitor. She'd seen
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: the children previously three times, but as she entered her
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: house she told us that she would not be able
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: to carry out the two year check because it was
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: too early. So obviously we were very kind of shocked, thinking, well,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: why have you said you're coming for the two year
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: check If you're not, that's a blatant lie and deception,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: So of course that would make anyone doubt you know,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: you'd feel a betrayal and kind of a lack of
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: trust there because you know you've been lied to and deces.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Well, and these two are supposedly professionals in child health,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: child healthcare, and child protection, so you would expect them
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: to be meticulous in doing their job in the proper way.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: You've used the right terminology, because essentially they used deceit
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: in order to get into your home. And then it
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: was from what you've said, it's clear to me that
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: the health visitor was being manipulated by the social worker.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So then what happened. We told the
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: health visitart that obviously, you know, we weren't happy about
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: what she'd done. We said, you know, you've really kind
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: of betrayed our chrust here because you know, we thought
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: that you were coming with the tear check and we
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: thought it was strange anyway because it was early. She
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: then informed us she would be coming back in November
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: to actually carry out is to your check and as
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: if we would agree to that. So we were kind
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: of in two minds because we were in a state
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: of shock about what had just happened. So we kind
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: of said, okay, well, yeah, we'll let you come in November.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: So after they'd left, we kind of thought about it
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: a bit more and we were thinking, you know, this
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: just doesn't seem right, you know, it seems very very deceitful.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: So in November she turned up at the door and
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: my daughter asked me to go and speak to her.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: She said, can you tell her mum that I'm not
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: happy for her to continue seeing my children, just because
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: I feel really deceived and let down, you know, so
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to continue letting her see the children.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: So obviously I went and explained the situation to the
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: help visitor, and to my absolute shock, she was really
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: understanding and she said to me, oh, yes, she said,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I know about these mums that are fleeing to other
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: countries to protect their children from social services. So I
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: was like, WHOA, Like, you know you've heard about this,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: so obviously I was shocked. She told me so she said,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: don't worry, she said, I'll write you were glowing reports
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: because I know the children are very well looked after,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: you know, and they've got no issues. So I was
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: really really assured by that, and I thought, well, that's good.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: You know, she knows about what's going on. There's obviously
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: something very kind of dubious going on with the social services,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: and she's willing to write us a glowing reports. Obviously
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: that's going to go in our favor because there's no concerns.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: So then she left and we felt reassured that there
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: was no issues. Then fast forward to February the following year,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: we had decided to go for a break and we
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: did a little bit of traveling with the children, me
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: and my daughter and the two grandchildren because we just
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: wanted to get away, you know, for a break to
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: kind of what you do from everyday life. And the
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: first we knew that there was anything wrong is I
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: got a very urgent, panicked call from my one of
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: my sons and he said to me, Mum, the police
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: has broken down the door. And I was absolutely shocked
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: and in horror, and I said, what do you mean
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: they've broken down the door and he said his partner
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: had been in the.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: House and that's that's your house. That's your house.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: She was house sitting my house while he was at work.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: She phoned him to say, the police have just some Well,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: she didn't know it was the police. First of all,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: she didn't know who it was. She said, somebody has
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: just broken the door down. She was obviously terrified because
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: she was upstairs by herself. So because they hadn't announced
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: that it was the police, there was no announcement made
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: that it was the police. So obviously my son, thankfully
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: was just around the corner in his work van. He
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: was able to get dropped off outside the house. He
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: came in to find out what was going on and
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: there was lots of police in the house. They put
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: him in handcuffs unlawfully. They did not announce who they were,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: They didn't read any of his rights whatsoever. They didn't
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: tell him why they were putting him in handcuffs. They
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: then did an unlawful body search on him as well,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: so obviously he was very distressed. They then started obviously
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: interrogating him and his partner and he then got me
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: on the phone because he was concerned. He was like, Mum,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know, you know what's going on here? Like
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: what do I do kind of thing. So at this
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: point we were in Scotland, and obviously we became very
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: upset when we could see what was going on and
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: hear what was going on with the police, and he'd
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: been repeatedly telling them that he didn't want the social
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: workers to be let into the house as well, because
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: two social workers had turned up and they were trying
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: to gain access to the property, and he told them
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: very clearly that he didn't consent. So they'd said that
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: they'd been told by a particular social worker, the same
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: one that's been involved the whole way through, that the
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: children hadn't been seen since last year and there was
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: a serious cause for concern of their life. Basically, that's
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: why they had the reason to break our door down.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: That's what they said, Claire.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Were these police playing closed in plain clothes.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: There was a mixture. There was a mixture of uniform
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: and my son said also there was a couple that
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: were not identifiable. They were wearing just suits and he
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: didn't know who they were. They didn't identify themselves, so
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: there was a mixture.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: No warning is shouted, it's the police, you know, opened
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: your door. The first thing your son's partner he is
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: is the front door has been smashed in and she's
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: got individuals coming into the house. That's truly shocking.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was terrified because she didn't know what was happening,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: and obviously she got on the phone immediately to my
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: son and it was just, you know, by God's grace
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: that he was around the corner and he was able
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: to get here very very quickly. But then they then
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: put him through trauma too, because obviously they put him
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: in handcuffs and unlawfully gave him a body search to
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: find out if he had any items on him.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: He contacts you and you learn what's going on and
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: what happens then, So.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Then they made it clear that they wanted to see
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: the children. They said that it had been reported that
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: the children had not been seen since last year and
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: they wanted to do a welfare check. So they'd already
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: been threatening and coercing my son because my son was
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: a landscape gardener. He had axes, and he had some
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: other like bushcraft tools and things like that, and we
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: also had some petic guns in the property as well.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Now they're perfectly lawful, nothing was wrong with them at all.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: But they started saying to my son, well, you know,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: we don't know if there's been a new legislation that's
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: been passed. They said some of these items might actually
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: be illegal. Now, so if that's the case, you know,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: we can actually technically arrest you and check, you know,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: if they're illegal. So they put him into a corner
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: where he felt like they were trying to manipulate him,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: very very wrong. He had the whole thing recorded as well,
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: and obviously that's why he then was, you know, eager
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: for us to kind of share our location of where
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: we were. And my daughter obviously felt, you know, a
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: kind of a cause for concern for her brother, thinking,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't want him to go through anything unlawful,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: especially after what they've already done, you know, so she
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: agreed to the police. She said, okay, you can send
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: police round to our travel lodge where we're staying right
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: now in Scotland, and you can check that my children
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: are both fine. And they agreed that once they'd done
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: that and they found out the children were okay, that
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: would be it. They would leave us alone because they'd
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: be satisfied that there was no cause for concern. So obviously,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: even though we were shaken up, we were kind of reassured,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: like there's nothing to worry about. They then sent round
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: very very quickly to Scottish police to our travel lodge
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and the police spoke to my daughter and by them.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: My other two sons had joined us because they'd come
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: up on the train to meet us in Scotland. All
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: four of us, scott questioned me and my daughter and
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: my two other sons, you know, about what we were
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: doing up there, and they wanted to look at the children.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: They said, oh, the children look very you know, well fed,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: they look healthy. There's no cause for concerns. We can
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: see you've got lots of food here as well, so
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: you know, they had absolutely no concerns. But they said
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: they wanted to get two Scottish social workers down to
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: the travel lodge just to double check that they had
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: no concerns as well. We waited for these two social
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: workers to arrive. It took quite most of the day,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: you know, this time in the travel lodge of them
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: talking to us and then waiting for the social workers
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: to arrive. When they arrived, there was two ladies that
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: turned up. I cannot recall their names, but they seemed
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: very surprised about why they were there in the first place,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: and they said, we don't really know why we're here,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: but you know, we can clearly see there's nothing wrong
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: with the tich children. You know, they're both perfectly, you know,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: well cared for, well fed, and you've got plenty of food,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: they've got good clothes, and you know, no concerns whatsoever.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: So again we were reassured there's no issues, they've got
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: no cause for concern. So they said to my daughter, listen,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: we've been informed by your social worker where you live
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: that you've got a court hearing on the Tuesday. Now
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: this was Friday that this happened, so we knew that.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Obviously we had the whole weekend and up to Tuesday.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: She said to get back to our local town where
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: there was going to be a court hearing. So that
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: was it. So we thought, okay. We were really shaken
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: up by the whole day because it had been you know,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: obviously very traumatic as you can imagine, you know, having
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: my house broken into seeing my son go through that,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: and then obviously them coming and kind of interrogating us
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: to find out what we were doing. So but then
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: we felt kind of a little bit at ease because
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: we thought, right, we can just relax now and just
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: make sure we get back for the court hearing on
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Tuesday and find out what's going on, what all this
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: is about.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: The next.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I woke up and I had this really bad feeling
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: in my stomach. I couldn't shape what it was, but
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: I just had this really bad feeling that something bad
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: was going to happen. But I didn't tell the rest
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: of my family because I didn't want to kind of
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: alarm them, and I thought maybe it was because of
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: the previous day. Anyway, about twelve o'clock midday is a bang, bang, bang,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: bad bang at our travel lodge and two different Scottish
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: social workers turned up, accompanied by around six police, first
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: of all, and they said they had an emergency call
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: order to take the children. And they demanded my grandson
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: was asleep on the bed having a nap, and they
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: demanded that we'd get them dressed and ready and put
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: them in the car ready to be driven off. Bearing
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: in mind that they had never been separated from us,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: not one single day and one single night. We were
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: obviously very very distraught, and we were really worried about
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: our grandchildren, well my grandchildren, and my granddaughter was only four,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: and she started shouting at them saying, I don't want
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: to go with the strange dangers. I don't want to
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: go with the strange dangers. And she was really busibly distressed,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: and my grandson was still sleeping. I don't know how
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: he was still sleeping, but he was still sleeping. And
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: they didn't give me the court order that They literally
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: threw it across the bed in an envelope, and I
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: kept saying to them, you know, you're not going to
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: read it out to me. You're not going to show
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: me what it is that you're presenting me with. And
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: they said, you can read it if you want, So
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: I said, well, well, can you let me read it? Then?
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: So I opened the envelope and I start reading it,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: and it said that they had an emergency court order
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: to take the children, and it wasn't signed. There was
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: no signature on it, there was no court stamp. And
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: so immediately that got my attention because I thought, you know,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: this doesn't seem legitimate, like this seems fraudulent to me.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: So I kept questioning and I said, look, there's no
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: signature on this. How is this right? And I kept
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: of bargain with them, saying, you know, like I don't
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: understand why this is happening. I said, do you not
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: understand there's no cause for concern of why the children
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: are with us? Like why are you taking them? And
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: they kept saying that they were following orders. They'd been
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: given a call order and they had to basically abide
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: by it. And I kept saying that could you not
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: use your moral compass? I said, you must know this
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: is wrong. And I explained to them about the domestic
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: I said, look, you've got it all filed. I said,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: you know, I said, we not only folded at our
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: original hometown, I said, but also my daughter went to
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: our local town when we moved, and she filed more
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: reports because her ex had been harassing and stalking us
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: on social media trying to find out our location, and
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: she'd been there again, and she'd also given them another
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: four to six hours again of further statements. So you know,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: we thought the whole police force should be aware of
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: our situation and the danger in the threat to the
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: children from her ex partner, and so, you know, to us,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: it didn't make any sense why they were coming to
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: take the children.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Claire, as you talk through this, I'm thinking of other
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: cases where the mums is usually the mums and mums
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: and dads in a couple of them, where children were
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: taken in this sort of very brutal and cold way,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: and I know from the time one family we were
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: very close to, and I absolutely saw the trauma that
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: this cause, not only the parents, but also of course
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: the children. So the child protection system causing the children
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: fear and anxiety supposedly to protect them. It's quite bizarre,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: but the callousness of it. I understand the callousness of
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: it because I have seen it, and your daughter, I
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: think we should emphasize at this stage, is still a
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: very very young mum. She wasn't really old, was she.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: No, she was twenty at the time when it happened,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: and she was so traumatized she actually had a proper
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: panic attack and she started hyperventilating, and the police said
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: to me, sort her out. That was their exact words,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: sort your daughter out. There was no assistance, there was
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: no one rushing to her aid. You know, she was hyperventilating,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: and I was expected to sort her out at the
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: same time as keeping my grandchildren calm and trying to
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: keep calm myself. And they were telling me if I
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: didn't hurry up and get the children dressed and ready,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: that I was basically interfering, and I was obstructing what
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: they'd been told to do, and that I would be
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: facing a rest and spending a whole weekend in the
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: police sell. That's what they told me. And then they
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: said you won't be there then to support your family,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: to help them get the children back.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Everything about the police and social services action is threatening,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: it's abusive, and I am also reading between the lines
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: a little bit, but also knowing some things about how
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: these things get done, that there's a psychological aspect to
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: it as well. You're being psychologically bullied and what do
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: they do? You get the children dressed and what happens.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: At this point, my grandson he woke up and he
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: was wondering what was going on. He started getting a
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: bit distressed because there were so many strangers all around.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Now Barly in mind, my grandson has always had autistic
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: traits since he was born. He was basically nonverbal, and
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: obviously he'd never been away from me or my daughter,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: and the same with my granddaughter. They hadn't either, So
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: being faced with all these strangers demanded that they were
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: being handed over, and obviously my granddaughter she was very
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: aware of what they were saying. She kept saying, Mummy,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: I don't want to go, I don't want to leave you.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: She said, I don't want to go with the stranger dangers,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: and she screwed up the court order and she threw
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: it at the police. She was so upset and she
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: was aware that it was to do with this bit
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: of paper.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, take your time, clear because these things are really difficult.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: It was the most traumatic thing we've ever been through
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: in our lives. And it dragged out for about an
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: hour and a half, which again they got angry with
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: me because they expected us to just literally get the
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: children dressed and just hand them over. That's what they expected.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: And even though I was very calm, and I was
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: staying calm and I was trying to reason with them
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: and trying to tell them the facts, they still said
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: that I obstructed and that I was making them worse.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: They said I was causing the grandchildren upset. And it wasn't.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: It's because my granddaughter knew exactly what was going on.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: She could hear them saying, you need to put the
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: children in the car, you need to get them ready
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: to go. You know. My daughter kept saying, can I
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: come to? And they gave my daughter false hope because
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: she said, please, don't let me be separated. From them.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: They've never been away from me before ever in their lives.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: And they said they were going to ask somebody if
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: she could come in the car with them, which was
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: a liar. We realized afterwards. It was a blatant liar.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: They had no intention that my daughter going with them,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: but they gave her false hope, and she kept saying,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: can you phone up now? And they said this is
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: what they said, which is really callous, and we have
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: all this recorded on video. They said that as soon
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: as the children were in the car, they were going
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: to make the phone call and find out if my
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: daughter could come as well. So obviously, as soon as
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: the children were in the car, they sped off at
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: lightning speed, like I'm talking super fast. It was like
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: something out of a movie, you know. There was no
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: kind of safety like driving off slowly. They literally just
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: sped like they were fleeing the scene, you know, of
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: a crime. It was like that. And then my daughter
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: just burst into floods of tears and we would just
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: stood there just hugging each other and just crying, you know.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: And I shouted out to a member of public, I said,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: they're stealing our children. And I was told to be quiet.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: It was I wanted someone to intervene to help because
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: I was thinking this isn't right. I was thinking, how
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: can this be happening. I couldn't get my head around
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: how it could be happening. And then my daughter got
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: a phone call and they said, sorry, you're not allowed
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: to come. We knew that that had been their intention
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: all along, but they gave her that false hope as well,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: which was like extra you know, there's just extra vindictive.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: It's like, why would you do that? Why would you
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: give a mother folese hope they can come with their
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: children and then say, oh, no, actually you can't. They
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: obviously knew that she wasn't going to go with them
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: in the first place.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Well, this is why I mentioned the psychological aspect to you,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: because very often when I talked to mum's parents that
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: have been involved in these cases, they talk about this
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: very sinister use of psychology, lies, twisting of the facts,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: choice of words, which is disturbing to the parents. And
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: it's clear that the use of these sort of psychological
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: tactics are not accidental. They seem to be. It's some
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: parents have described it that it was almost as though
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: they were using a template in what they did and
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: what they said, But you, as a parent were a
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: target for some really unpleasant psychological tricks. That's how it
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: seems to me.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, none of it made any sense at all.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: And the thing is, Claire, sorry, just to come back in,
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: what reaction did you get from the police. The car
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: goes with the two children and you're obviously left there
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: with some of the police officers. What do they say
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: to you?
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: So I told them all that they were going to
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: be held accountable. I looked at them all and I said,
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: you're going to be held accountable by the most high
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: I said, do you think that you're not? I said,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: you know you everyone knows you're all going to be
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: held accountable because I truly believe that you know what
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: you do in this life, you're going to pay the
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: price for. And I said, each one of you, I said,
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: that's been complicit in this, because I said, none of
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: you had stopped this from happening when you could have done,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: because I've told you the truth and you could have
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: looked into it and you could have stopped this. And
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: they all just looked at me, and one of the
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: police officers actually turned around and said, oh, don't worry.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: They won't be going anywhere near your daughter's ex abuser.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: That's what he said, and I had I have him
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: on the film saying that, right.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: And were they were?
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: They all males, mostly males, but there were a couple
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: of females, but they were the majority, the ones who
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: were doing the talking. And the one who was mocking
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: my daughter as well, he was male. Can you please
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: leave now? In Jesus Christ's name, you do not have
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: the authority to take her children away from now she's
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: the mother. No, we're not receiving it. We're not except
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: that we haven't consensed.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: You don't have the.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Authority over God to take our children. You leave now. No,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: you need to leave now the name of Jesus christ name,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: please leave. I need you to leave now, to be
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: one minute. I need you to live.
• 43:16
  Speaker 5: What we're all doing here is just trying.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: We're trying to, okay, and the fact that we're.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: Still going on about it just now, we will assure
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: bring it down every minute. Okay, you need to talk
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: to each other, Sily and you right, what we'll do
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: is try and not upset the children.
• 43:32
  Speaker 6: And can you listen to me, I'm still talking I'm
• 43:37
  Speaker 6: still talking about she has said thought these two this
• 43:43
  Speaker 6: needs to be done.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, they don't have authority. You don't have authority. That's
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: not authority. Corruption is there. It's unlawful to listen to
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: me because we're repeating children.
• 44:00
  Speaker 7: You're stealing children, you're kidnapping them. Individual you're kidnapping, kidnapping.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Introduced the children, but kidnapping. I need you to leave
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: in Jesus Christ name, I need you to leave in
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ name.
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: Now please, you're kidnapping the children.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: This is kidnapping.
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: You can't kidnap children from their mother.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: That's evil. Street judge sitting in private.
• 44:27
  Speaker 7: No official courts stand, which makes it immediately illegal.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Can we focus on the content please, because it.
• 44:34
  Speaker 7: Means you have authority. Sheffield City Council, can you office please?
• 44:42
  Speaker 7: There's no official course, no official coults.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: You're not taking people are here from the police and
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: the social case to take the children, and there's.
• 44:55
  Speaker 7: No efficient cults and there's no wedding.
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: Is it possible for bet me to go with the children?
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: That would make it.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Chi to see if that's probably a good poss about
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: that that can happen.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: But this is.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Getting and you could take should be this is.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Which stomach, which leadership?
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Which place would you like us to take you?
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: I need to find.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: This is so wrong, this is so wrong.
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: Are you not you watch chickens looking?
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: I said that on this car?
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: Find not with the social workings?
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: Have you got your baby?
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: And you guys can have a look at and bring
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: us splice the up.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Bottles? Can you go? Can you got the cake? Go?
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: Brad death in spiney, he braved on in the cake.
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: I will, I will want, I promise, I'm going to
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: get you back.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: You're two going to be together.
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: Please stay together, SNA take care of take care of you.
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: Love you both so much.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: Street.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: Can I get it anything? Okay? This? Would you just
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: stay in your child? You travel? It was a phone call.
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: I'm I'm going to for my manager or I'll be
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: back and if you can travel.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: But I need to speak the chefield as well, because
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: they have to allow us to the tunnels with the kid.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: So I did that.
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: So it might be another ten or fifteen minutes. Okay,
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: I'll be back in time.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: From your line, O seas Little definitely has just been
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: served with these court orders at a hotel in Scotland
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: with the court case that she's been told she has
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: to attend and it's already happening, so she has absolutely
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: no opportunity of getting there to be heard. It says
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: it's today twenty third of February twenty twenty four at
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: two pm and the time now is two point thirty pm,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: and they've literally the woman's just knocked on the door
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: and served this with Bevan and she said, I'm sorry
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: that it's already happening now, but I've been told to
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: serve you with these papers.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: The children are gone. You as a family must have
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: been there absolutely shell shocked and what do you do next?
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: We didn't know what to do. We were literally in
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: pieces and we were obviously in Scotland and the children
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: had just got into a stranger's car that we had
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: no idea who they were. We didn't know where they
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: were going. My daughter was given a phone number and
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: she kept on texting the number, saying where are my children?
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Where are they going? And she wasn't getting any response
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: and no replis whatsoever. We found out afterwards that that
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: was actually the social workers number, so she was supposed
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: to have had a duty to inform my daughter of
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: where her children were, and she was not responding to
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: any of the messages, and she, in fact, she didn't
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: respond until later on, very later on at night, because
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: obviously we then had the real difficulty of getting ourselves,
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: in our state of absolute upset and distraught, we had
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: to try and get back. We had to get all
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: our stuff packed up from where we were staying on holiday,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: and we had to then get to the train station,
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: and my daughter had the double pushchair for the children,
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: which she then had to put our luggage on that
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: and wheel that back, which again was really really hard
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: for her because pushing an empty double pushchair without your
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: children is I think any mother that can understand that,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: it's like going to a hospital to have, you know,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: a child and then coming back with an empty car seat,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: you know, without the child. It's a rific So that
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: in itself was really really difficult. And then she didn't
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: get told until really late at night that the children
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: had been handed over to her ex abuser, who didn't
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: know them and was a complete stranger to both children.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Just tell me that again, when were they they handed
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: over to the partner.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: So we didn't find out until after how it had
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: actually hanned out, But what we were told is that
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: the children had been driven directly from Scotland to Sheffield
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: and was then they were met by her ex's abuser.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: He then got on a train and took them directly
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: back to where he lives in Essex, all on the
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: same day, which would have been incredibly distressing for both
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: the children, especially being handled from stranger to stranger without
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: knowing any of them and wondering where we were.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: As you were telling this this story, clar and particularly
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: when you get to this bit. I'm sat here and
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I wonder how the audience is reacting to this,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: because I can imagine there are people saying, I just
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: can't believe this. I can't believe what I'm hearing. I'm
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: not saying that to doubt you. I absolutely believe what
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: you're talking about because I've heard it so many times before,
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: but I can imagine people in the audience absolutely stunned
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: themselves to hear what you've just described. And yet this
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: is reality. This is what goes on in the child
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: protection system. So how does it progress from there? Is
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: there a court is there a court date already set?
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: When does that appear? When the details of the court appear.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: They did have a court hearing, and the really tragic
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: thing is that we were kept away from the children
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: for a whole month after they were taken, which is
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: probably one of the most distressing parts for the children,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: especially because you know, for me, what goes through my
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: head is them thinking that we've abandoned them and wondering
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: where their family is because they did not know their
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: dad at all. My granddaughter had no recollection of him
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: because she'd only seen him when she was a very,
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: very tiny baby, so she didn't know his face. She
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: didn't know any of his relatives. Obviously, my grandson had
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: never met him, so they were all strangers completely, and
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: then being kept away from us for a whole month,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: and when we turned up at the court hearing, we
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: were appointed a solicitor, which we thought was from the
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: Christian Aid people, but it turned out she didn't even
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: know who the Christian Aid was, and it became very
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: apparent from the on start that she was very eager
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: to follow instructions given to her by the court and
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: not to look at any of my daughter's evidence, which
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: obviously was highly highly concerning to both me and my
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: daughter because we thought it was going to be straightforward.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: We thought they're going to look at all the police reports.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: They're going to see that we fled domestic the police
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: knew about it, and they're going to say there's been
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: a terrible mistake and we're going to give the children back.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: That's in our minds, that's what we thought was going
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: to happen. And it could have been further from the truth.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Right, And and was there just one court hearing? And yes,
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: the other question which goes tell us about the court hearing?
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Why were you in court? Ultimately? Why why did why
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: did they bring you into that court hearing?
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, So we found out afterwards that my daughter's ex
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: abuser had actually filed lies against our family and said
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: that we were a danger to the children because he
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: didn't believe that they were having access to the doctors,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: and he didn't believe that they were going to be
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: in school. And also he was very concerned that they
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: hadn't been vaccinated. That was his top priority. So apparently
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: that gives the social services the impression that you are
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: not looking up for your children's welfare by those three factors.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I've certainly heard that before. I think there
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: are many parents that have been under pressure because if
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: they've had any reservations about vaccinating their children, that seems
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: to almost put them on a target list, or it
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: certainly worsens relations with social services. So in the court hearing,
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: then I'll try not to preempt you here, all right,
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: But why didn't I say it? I would assume that
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: your solicitor doesn't present any of the key evidence showing
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: your side of the story.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: None whatsoever. No, in fact, they had it. It's like
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: they already had it laid out exactly what they were
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: going to do. It's like it had been all planned
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: and they were sticking to the plan. That's the impression
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: I got. It seems like they wanted to transfer the
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: children to his custody for what reasons they Obviously we
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: can only guess what reasons they had there, But they
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: definitely weren't interested in looking at any of the facts whatsoever.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: In fact, when I looked through the case, I was
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: horrified that the whole case was built on lies, slander, opinions,
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: and assumptions all the way through the entire case file.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: Right, And was it a full day's hearing.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: No, it was literally about an hour that was it
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: and what was the result. So the solicitor came out
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: and she said something very concerning to my daughter. She
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: said the court had said that as the children had
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: been taken, it was probably going to be too traumatic
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: to return them all the way back to where we
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: were because of the distance and the fact they had
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: already removed them from us. And so that to us
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: there was a massive alarm bell because it didn't sound
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: like they had any intention of returning the children.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: You say, the solicitor came out, were you and your
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: daughter not in the court? Maybe you wouldn't have been,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: but I would have expected your daughter to have actually
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: been in the court.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: So what it turned out is that while we were
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: sitting outside the court, she was going back and forth
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: having discussions with the court without my daughter being present.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: So I'm obviously not clued up on how courts work
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: with the family court, and I had no inclination about
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: what goes on and how it is actually, you know,
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: supposed to unfold. But this is what was happening. She
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: was going back and forth talking two people in the
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: family court and coming back and relaying information to me
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: and my daughter who was sitting outside.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: This is incredible, Claire, because of all the things I've
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: heard about family courts, I've never heard about this sort
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: of conduct that the solicitor is sort of acting as
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: a go between in and out of court. Because if
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: you're not in court, you're not in court. This is
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: the key thing. Stepping into the court is bringing you
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: into the family court itself, and if you're not actually
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: in the court, you're not in the court. So there
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: was something very untoward going on here with that solicitor, Yeah.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: There was, And obviously I was in floods of tears
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: at the time, and I had been told that I
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to get involved, which I actually believed. You know,
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: in hindsight, I wish that I hadn't listened to that
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: at the time, because, you know, as my daughter's mother
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: and having such a pivotal role in the children's upbringing,
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: because obviously I've been there since both births, and obviously
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: I was like the other parent, you know, I was
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: doing all the duties of the parent that they would
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: be doing. They told me that it was not my case.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: I didn't have parental responsibility, so I was not allowed
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: to get involved and I was not allowed to be
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: inside the court hearing. Now, I later found out that
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: actually I could have been in the court as my
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: daughter's support, but they did not give me that information,
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: which I was very annoyed about.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, you could have been there as even as your
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: daughter's McKenzie friend. But to me, it's very clear that
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: you'd got a history of caring for the children and
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: helping your daughter care for the children, so that would
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: have been a particularly strong case for you to have
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: actually been in court. So a hearing, did you say
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: about an hour? Is that what you said to me? Yeah,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: and then they tell you the children can't go back
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: because you're too far away.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And they said they've already removed them now, so
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: it's unlikely they're going to move them all the way
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: back into the court hearings of you know, obviously finished
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: when they've actually decided you know what's going to happen basically.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: All right, So okay, So they were treating this sort
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: of as a preliminary hearing. They were suggesting that this
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: was almost a fact finding hearing, and then there were
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: going to be future hearings where the future of the
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: children would be decided.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, But we later found out when I started looking
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: through the court papers, they've already marked both children up
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: for possible adoption, which was very shocking to me because
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: when I went down the files, it said before they'd
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: even decided they were going to give the children to
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: my daughter's ex abuse are it said possible adoption. It
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: said yes on both children, and I was absolutely flabbergasted.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: I thought, how can they both be marked for possible adoption?
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: I pause because again, if the audience will absolutely be
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: with you and what you're saying, Claire, how is this possible?
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: Because this is what they do. So we have we
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: have social services, we have a child protection system, which
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: is a law unto itself, and it's it's clear that
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: when children are taken for whatever reason, why they're targeted.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you can't quite explain that. But when children are taken,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: social services simply make a decision as to what is
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: going to happen with those children, bad enough that they're
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: they're placed with a father who's been abusive. But then
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: you discover that somebody has taken the decision say it, well,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: we'll put the children through for adoption. It's some I'll
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: say a mother. Recently that I've done another interview with
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: who had a baby taken away from a described the
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: process as like a scary movie.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how this has all felt like, it's not real.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: That every day I wake up and I feel like
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: it's all going to be over and I'm going to
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: be back to how we were, you know, because the
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: thing is with my grandchildren is that in the night,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: my grandson would often come across the corridor and he'd
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: come into my room and get into my bed and
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: come locked me in the night. And you know, after
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: they were taken, I kept waiting. I couldn't sleep. I
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: literally spent about the first few months not being able
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: to sleep more than two hours, and I kept thinking
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: I heard his footsteps coming across the floor. It's just
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: I can't even explain the words. I was literally I
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep, I could have popular function.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: It's grieving for a loss, isn't It is what it is.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: And if somebody dies, to you know, take it to
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: a very basic level. If somebody dies, you know what's happened,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: and the grieving happens. But at least asn't an adult,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: do you understand what's happened to the person, But when
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: when children have been taken away. Not only is there
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: a hole because they've gone, but you've got this constant
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: underlying worry as to how they are, Are they well,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: are they being treated properly? And that is huge psychological pressure.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: It was because also we had a really good routine
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: because my grandson was a very very early riseer, so
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: he would get up at five thirty every morning and
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: I would always go downstairs with him for a couple
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: of hours, and my daughter and my granddaughter would get
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: up a few hours later because they used to wake
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: up later. So I was always down there every morning
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: for those first few hours where it was just me
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: and my grandson, you know, and that was the routine,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: and it was just, you know, people just don't understand.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: It's because I'm the grandmother. Obviously, I was literally like
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: another mother to them both. So obviously it's hit me
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: very hard, and I just I keep thinking to myself
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: that you know, they're going to be wondering like where
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: we are, like where me and my daughter are, why
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: they're not in their home anymore, and why they've been
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: put in a house full of strangers. Yeah.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's unbelievably cruel and the bit that goes
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: with it. It's quite clear that it's planned and it's orchestrated.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: This this is not just incompetence by a few social workers,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: because there are too many cases in variety of different places,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: not only across England, but in Scotland and Wales and
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: Northern Ireland as well, where the same pattern applies. So
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: it's like a template operation to actually take children away.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: And I have come across on many occasions this part
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: of the story that children are taken away from the
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: loving parent and the loving home and they are handed
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: into an abusive environment, the exact opposite of what you'd
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: expect the child protection system to be doing. How did
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: your daughter? How is your daughter coping with this at
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: the moment.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, She's had her ups and downs with it. There's
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: been times where she's really felt like her life isn't
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: worth living anymore. She said to me, Mum, I don't
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: see what the point is, you know, without my children.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: But the only thing that's got her through is actually
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: her faith, because we have a strong faith, a Christian family.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: That is what's actually got her through. She keeps having
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: faith in trusting God that justice is going to be done.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: She said, she, you know, she knows that it has
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: to come out eventually, because you know, everything done in
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: the dark must be brought to the light. You know,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: we strongly believe that. Yeah.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, So from that first court case, how many other
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: court hearings did you have to attend?
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: So we had The second one is where my daughter
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: changed solicitor. Because of the first solicitor, obviously she hadn't
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: been producing any of my daughter's evidence. We decided to
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: find another solicitor, and we did a lot of research
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: and we found one that specialized in family law and
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: domestic abuse, and we thought this was going to be good.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: So basically, they took a whole month to transfer from
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: one solicitor to the other, which we thought was very
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: you know, strange. It's like they were dragging it out
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: on purpose because the longer time had gone on, we
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: weren't seeing the children at all. When the solicitor then
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: did get involved and she started receiving the legal aid,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: that's when things changed. So whereas she'd had an initial
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: conversation with us both and it sounded like she was
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: going to be fighting for my daughter to get her
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: children back as soon as she started receiving the legal
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: aid fund, she changed completely. It's like a switch had
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: been activated inside her and she was like someone completely different.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: Suddenly she wasn't interested in my daughter's evidence. She said, oh, no,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: you know, we've got to do what the court says.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: And it became very apparent that something very sinister was
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: going on because I thought, both solicitors, this is too
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: much for coincidence. They're both doing what the court is
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: telling them, and they're not looking at any of my
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: daughter's evidence.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: What you might say a lot of parents discover as
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: they go into the family court system is that basically
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: these legal firms that they think are going to fight
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: their case fight for them in the court, they eventually
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: discover they're having private discussions with the social workers or
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: even the judge. And the number of families that have
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: said to me, we were just shocked to discover that
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: they were utterly betraying us through the court system. I
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: presume she changed because the moment the legal aid documents
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: had been signed, she was on the gravy train. And
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: you know that was that was the first thing. Is
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: you rom okay? Because I know you'll still hold.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: To arrest for a bit it's all right, it's okay.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: So you swapped, you swap legal teams.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then obviously, again it was very apparent that
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: she wasn't interested. In fact, she even blamed my daughter
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: and said that she shouldn't have fled and not told
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: her abuse of where she was going. And we were like,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: are you serious. So you're fleeing a dangerous abuser, but
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: you're going to tell them where you're going. So that, again,
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: it was very concerning, especially as they were supposed to
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: specialize in domestic abuse. I thought that was a very
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: strange statement to come out.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: With, Yeah, because it's an inversion of common sense, isn't it.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: So that is absolutely yeah. You immediately flagged that up
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: as utterly bizarre.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: Indeed, because I thought, you know, there's lots of groups
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: out there that claim to help, you know, mainly mothers
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: fleeing domestic abuse with their young children, and they say
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: that they're going to help them, you know, to be
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: safe from their abuser. So if there's these type of
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: charities that exist, then why are they saying that you
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: can't protect your children from an abuser? You know? To me,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: that doesn't make any sense.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, So I just pushed this point, so how many
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: court cases in total?
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, So after that she decided that she wasn't going
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: to have a salister because for obvious reasons, so she
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: decided to represent herself and then they had a remote hearing.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: And just before that remote hearing happened, we came into
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: contact with what we were told was a private lawyer
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: and he said that he was going to help us.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: He was actually able on the first remote hearing to
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: speak and they were grilling him and saying, you know,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: who are you, what are your credentials? Are you registered?
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: Because they wouldn't accept first of all that he was
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: a private lawyer. He then said he was a McKenzie
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: friend litigen. So then on this remote hearing, the judge
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: said that she had received a very interesting bundle from
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: my daughter because me and my daughter decided to put
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: all the evidence together and send it direct to the
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: judge because we thought, you know, we're desperate, we need
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: to know the judge actually gets all of the evidence
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: because the solicitors are not producing it, they're not showing
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: it to the court. So we thought we'll give the
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: judge a fair chance to have the entire evidence before her.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: So she can see for herself without being manipulated by
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: anyone in the court, you know, of the truth, so
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: that she would know and you know, we were trusting
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: that she would be a fair judge and she would
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: see that and she would realize that, you know, they've
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: made a really bad mistake in that you know, it
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: needs to be rectified. So anyway, on the remote hearing,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: she said she'd received a very interesting bundle from my daughter.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: She then proceeded to tell the solicitor of the social
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: worker that she needed to tidy it up, and then
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: she said she wouldn't be available for any further thought hearings.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: That's a very interesting statement from the judge, interesting choice
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: of words. What did you understand from that exchange?
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I understood that she could see that this was
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: clearly a great big mess that you know, we were
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: showing the evidence of everything they'd done that was completely unlawful,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: and they didn't have any grounds to stand on to
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: take the children, and so she obviously didn't want to
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: have anything more to do with it, and she was
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: telling the solicitor to tidy it up, to sort it out,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: to try and you know, sort the mess out. Basically,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: that's that's what I took that to me.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would think that as well. I think that
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: choice of words from the judge was that the solicitor
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: was being warned off to get rid of the evidence. Basically,
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: that's I use an expression. The man on the clap
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: omnibus might think that the judge had instructed the solicitor,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: yours solicitor to effectively get rid of the real evidence
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: as to what was going on.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the solicitor of the social worker, the
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: same one that was involved all the way through.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, because you said your daughter was representing herself,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that was the Well then it applies even
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: more strongly, doesn't it tidy up, deal with it, get
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: rid of the evidence?
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: Because also what I haven't mentioned as well is that
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: obviously when this started, you know, when they took the children,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: my daughter made it very clear that she wanted a
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: new social worker on the case because she said, this
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: social worker has been biased to my abuser the whole
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: way through, because she'd obviously by then read the court
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: file was what I've been written, and she could clearly
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: say that the social worker was in favor of the
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: abuser and not of her, so that was very concerning.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: She had demanded multiple times to the team where we
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: lived that she wanted a new social worker, to which
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: she was told it would not be possible because the
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: social worker had put a lot of work into this.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: She was very telling, Yeah, because obviously just put a
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: lot of work into this. So yeah. Then there was
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: another remote hearing to which it was a different judge,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: and what happened was we had obviously the private lawyer
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: that had come onto the scene. He tried to speak
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: for us, but they said that he needed to attend
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: call in person with his proof of identity.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: Just to clarify here, maybe maybe we need a little
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: bit of clarification. This person was essentially acting as an
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: informed but unqualified legal person, so he was acting as
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: a Mackenzie friend or a lay legal advisor is the
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: other term. And I know there are a lots of
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: very good ones out there. They're very capable, but of
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: course the courts don't like them because if they're very
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: knowledgeable at law, they don't conform to the old boy
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: network that operates the courts.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: That's the impression we got because he did seem to
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: know the law very very well, and they had a
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: big problem with the fact that he wasn't registered. So
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: what they said, they agreed that he could attend court.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: So this court hearing was actually adjourned and they arranged
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: another court hearing in person at our local court in Sheffield.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: So on this particular day, the day before, rather this lawyer,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: he put fifteen orders in place, and these fifteen orders,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: he said, should make the judge overturn the entire case
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: and return the children because he was quoting law at them,
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: and he was using other cases as well to back
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: up what he was saying and what they did on
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: the day. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to turn up. Yeah,
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: he was unable to turn up. He didn't turn up,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: and he told us not to go in the court
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: by ourselves, and so we stood outside the court for
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: four hours, not sure what to do, waiting. And what
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: they did was a different judge had been appointed to
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: take over the rest of our entire case. Instead of
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: looking at the fifteen orders that he put in that
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: were very very important and they should have held a
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: lot of standing with law, he threw all fifteen of
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: them out. He said, nobody attended court.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: That was the perfect excuse for that judge, nobody had
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: attended the court, so there's no reason for him to
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: look at any of the paperwork.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: So from then it basically spiraled because then the next
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: two hearings that were arranged, our private lawyer did turn up,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: but they wouldn't allow him in. They said that he
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: wasn't a suitable person, that he'd been given the opportunity
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: to turn up the last time, that he hadn't turned up,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: and now they were saying that he was an unsuitable person,
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: and they proceeded to lock the court door and have
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: three security guards standing outside the court and wouldn't allow
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: any of us in. And on both occasions they then
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: had the final court hearing, and then they also tried
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: to have me imprisoned as well on the same court hearing,
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: the final court hearing.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: And why was that, Claire?
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: Because I had decided to stand outside the core with
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: a megaphone and I wanted to make the public aware
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: of what was going on because I was so just
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: distressed by everything that's happened to our family. I felt
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: like I needed to campaign for justice and I needed to,
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: you know, make the public aware of what was going
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: on so I could somehow try and get help, you know,
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: to get everything that had happened to us rectified. And
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: I felt like that was my only choice was to
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: try and go public with it. So I discovered that
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: Sheffield City Council had actually put in an application to
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: have me committed to prison because clearly they didn't like
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: even though I hadn't mentioned the children's names, I hadn't
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: identified them at all. I hadn't spoken even about the
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: details of the case in detailed at all. I was
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: talking about generalization of what was happening, you know, to
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: mothers and fathers having their children unlawfully stolen. They'd obviously
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: decided they didn't like it and they wanted to have
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: me in prison.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: What happened then, so the local authority tries to push
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: a committal order through on you Was that rejected in
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: the court.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: No, So what I did was I returned to the
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: court papers and I wrote all over them that I
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: did not consent and I did not I was not
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: going to participate in their legal fraud, I said, and
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: I stated that I was a living woman, I was
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: not under their terms and their conditions, and that I
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: hadn't done anything at all to break the law. I
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: said I was campaigning for justice because justice had not
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: been done, and that obviously all these crimes had been committed.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: And I then listed about fifty of the crimes that
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: they committed in great detail, and once I'd posted that
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: back to the court, they then withdrew their application to
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: have me committed to prison.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: Well, that's very very interesting. Fear. It's a common thing
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: to see in these people. They're very vicious when they're
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: taking children, but when people do their best to fight back,
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: you can very often see fear. And there is definitely fear.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: They fear publicity, There's no question of this, and presumably
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: this is why the courts are secret courts with no
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: jury and usually no press, and why invariably the judges
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: will be reinforcing to parents that they mustn't speak about
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: what has taken place in the courts. They fear the
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: why to public learning about how children are taken in
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: these star chamber courts. So I think you were getting
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a sense of that.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: I did. Yes, Obviously they're worried about being exposed because
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: you know, I was calling them out on the crimes
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: they're committed, which are very very serious crimes. You know,
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: to unlawfully steal a child from them, you know, their
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: birth mother, especially for no lawful reason. Because also what
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: I haven't mentioned is that in one of the meetings
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: that we had, the care of view officer, she was
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: supposed to be independent. I asked her and the social worker,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: I said, what is the danger of my daughter being
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: around her children? And there was just this deadly silence.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: They could not answer me. They would not give me
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: an answer, and instead, the care of your officer then
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: proceeded to say, well, we're in care proceedings now, so
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: you just need to get yourself a good legal team.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: That was it. She wouldn't give any reason.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: Two questions, how long did the court proceedings last? Well,
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think about the time period from the
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: time of the first hearing through to the last one.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: What sort of period of time was that.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: After they took the children in February, the last hearing
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: they had was in September.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: Right, And so what was that final judgment? Claire?
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: The final judgment is that they refuse to look at
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: any of my daughter's evidence. We don't know what evidence
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: the judge was even shown. We don't know if they
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: destroyed any of it. We don't know what they gave him,
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: but his ultimate decision was that the children would stay
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: with my daughter's ex abuser and being cared for by
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: his new girlfriend, who's also a victim. She's disclosed up
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: to my daughter two years ago, and she's going to
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: be raising her own two children and my daughter's two children,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: and my daughter is only allowed to see her children
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: if she attends a particular place which she didn't deem
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: was suitable place, and she has to call my daughter
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: buy a different name, because they have renamed my daughter
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: my granddaughter sorry, which is incredibly psychologically damaging as well
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: on top of everything else, and also obviously she's meant
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: to be supervised by her ex abuse as mum and sister.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: You mean inside a contact center.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: No, not in a contact center. They've said it has
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: to be held at a party man World place. So
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: a party Man World is a place where they have
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: lots of very very loud music and they have like
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: a children's play center.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: Under these units operated by child protection or.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: No, it's literally like a social place where you can
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: take children to run around and jump on equipment, and
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: you know, like they have like a full park there
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: as well, so, to be honest, it's not really a
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: suitable place where you can have intimate time with your
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: children that you've not seen for how long, to actually
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: have proper conversations and spend quality time. It's a very,
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: very noisy environment with lots of children running around all
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: over the place.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I would say that that's the reason they
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: choose it as an environment, because it's not an environment
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: that you can help restore the bond with your own children. No,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: that environment is just is chosen because it is disruptive
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: and loud and you can't have a proper conversation and
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: the children are distracted. But your daughter would have to
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: be there with your partners, sorry, with a abusive partners,
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: female partner and her mother.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: Mother and sister. Yeah, which again they didn't have any
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: contact with the children where we were living at our
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: old place anyway, they were strangers to the children too.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: And now suddenly they've been put in these roles where
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: they have complete control over my daughter. And they say
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: that if they don't like the conversation, or if she
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: doesn't call her daughter by her new name, they will
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: terminate straight away the contact. So it feels almost like
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: being put in a bullying, intimidating situation where you're being
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: coerced again to do what they're saying under those terms
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: and conditions, and that's the only way she can see
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: her children.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: And Claire, I have to admit here that I haven't
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: heard of this before, where the control is put in
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: the hands of other inverted commerce family members. I'm used
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: to hearing the parents or the mum or the dad
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: was able to see the child within a very cold,
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: austere contact center and there was always one or more
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: social services usually women, present during the hour or the
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: two hours that they were actually given to see their
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: own children. So I haven't heard of this before. But
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: it's again, it's got this to me. It's got this
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: very sadistic psychological twist in it because to be in
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: the company of your own children when they are controlled
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: by what effectively strangers, and you're going to have to
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: call your child by a completely different name. This is
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: very dark stuff. I don't know how else to describe it.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: I'm calling it dark. It's sinister, it's sadistic, it's depraved.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: And the other thing that I haven't mentioned as well
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: is that prior to the final court hearing, we were
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: actually seeing the children in a contact center that was
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: arranged by other social services while the court hearings were
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: still in progression. But they would keep it very minimalistic,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: so on some weeks we would see the children and
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: other weeks they'd leave it two weeks or three weeks
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: now on every occasion, which is what obviously I didn't
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: mention so initially, going back to when they were first,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: they left it a whole month, and when we saw
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: the children after a month of being out of our care,
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: they were covered in bruises and scratches and injury marks.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: They were in very poor health, bearing in mind beforehand
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: they'd never been sick, never been ill. They used to
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: get like the odd running nose and they be better
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: within like a day. Because obviously I'm very holistic. I've
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: always brought my children and my family up very healthily,
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: using all like natural memorism things, which again social services
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: don't appear to like that way of life. So it
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: was very very disturbing to see my grandchildren in that state,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: and we were horrified. We reported it all. It's all
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: been logged in the contact report books. When we then
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: saw them again the following week, they had more new scratches,
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: more bruises, they had white marks. Over the progression of
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: seeing them, they started to have missing parts of their tea.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: My grandson had all patches on his hair, and my
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: daughter was really upset and she said, like, he's always
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: had really thick, curly hair, like, what's happened to his hair?
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: And they tried to just brush it off and said, oh,
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: you know, we don't know, but it's not a concern.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: Apparently the health visitor has seen it and she's aware
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: of it, and they're not concerned. So they wouldn't tell
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: us how it could possibly have occurred. And it happened
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: about three times, different board patches on his hair. They
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: wouldn't tell us how it happened. He also turned up
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: on one occasion with two slightly black eyes that were
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: just forming, you know, not where they're completely black, but
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: where they're just starting to go black. Obviously, all of
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: this has been photographed. As soon as they realized that
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: we had over one hundred photographs of their injuries and
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: the bite marks and the scratches and all the bruises
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: and their poor health, they immediately told us that we
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: could not take any more photos. They said it is
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: psychologically emotionally damaging to the children to take photos of
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: the injuries.
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: And again this is turning common sense on its head.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: And certainly there's no compassion being shown by these people
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: in doing what they're doing. It's truly wicked. You know,
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: what words can you use to describe this sort of thing?
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: How long is it now since you and your daughter
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: of well, how long is it now since the children
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: were taken away?
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: It was February last year, so it's been nearly eleven months.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: And how long is it since you've actually been able
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: to see the children.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: We haven't seen them now for nearly four months.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: And is their talk of you being able to see
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: them again or is it just gone into a black hole.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: Well, we've been sending lots of emails to the social
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: team in Essex and the social team where we live
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: in Sheffield, and they all keep saying the same thing,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: that decisions were made by the judge in the court
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: in Sheffield and they're the only ones that can overrule,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: and that they're not willing to get involved.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: We got the utterly bizarre situation here where Child Protection
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: have taken children from a perfectly loving environment, they pass
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: them into a potentially abusive environment. But that environment turns
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: out to be abusive in fact, and you are recording
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: the evidence, and then when the abuse of children within
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: the wider care system is pointed out, they simply say, well,
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: it's not our it's not our responsibility. The judge made
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: the decision. It's well, I'm stuttering because you know, how
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: do you choose the words to describe this. I just
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: hope that the I'm sure they will. The audience listen
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: listening to this, they're reeling in shock, because of course,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: this sort of thing hasn't just happened to you and
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: your family. It's happening to hundreds of thousands of other
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: families with children taken across the country. Claire, what about
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: other steps? You obviously fought as hard as you could
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: through the courts. You tried using legal teams, your daughter
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: tried to represent yourself, you use some lay legal help.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: What else have you done in order to try and
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: get this decision overturned or to get help for the family.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: Who have you been able to speak to.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: I've been emailing the CEO of the Chief Executive of
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: Sheffield and we've had a lot of back and forth emails.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: But again they're finally washing their hands and saying again
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: if I had issues and that I don't agree with
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: the decisions made in the court, that I need to
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: go back to the court in Sheffield. That's what they're
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: saying is my only option. And that's what everyone is saying.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: Whoever I contact, they're all saying they can't get involved.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: I've contacted m pays all over the place. They've all
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: said they cannot get involved with the family court decision.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: Right, and yet you are you know, if you were
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: just saying this to me, the children have got bruises
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: and scratches and other physical injuries that you can't explain,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: that would be your claim that you are saying to me.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: Not only have we seen it, we've taken photographs of it,
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: and so presumably you've shared those photographs with, for example,
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: the chief executive is Sheffield City Council.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: We first initially showed them to the social worker and
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: the Care of you officer and we were very shocked
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: by their response because we were expecting them to be
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: horrified by the change in the children appearance, because I've
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: had other people say to me they look like completely
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: different children before and after and when they initially looked
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: at the first set of photos, which was before they
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: were taken, they were saying, in a very sinister voice, oh,
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 2: how beautiful the children looked. They looked so beautiful. They
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: look so beautiful. You know. It was a bit creepy
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: the way they were saying it. And then obviously when
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: they moved to the second lot of photos, where you
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: could visibly see how bad their injuries and their scratch
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: marks and bruising and just the whole deterioration of their health.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: You know, you could see black lions under their eyes,
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: and their faces were very pale, and they just looked really,
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: you know, distraught and upset and not healthy and not happy.
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: The care of your officers said, aren't they coming along?
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, again, this is this is unbelievably cold and well,
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: it's sinister and it's perverse because what you're suggesting, and
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: I completely agree with you, is that these people are mocking,
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: are mocking the condition of the children. They're deriving pleasure
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: out of Yes, they actually agree with you because they
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: know what you're saying is true, but they're mocking as
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: they respond in this way. If I say to you,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: declare that many of the mums and dads that I've
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: talked to over a very long period of time now,
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: because I think it's approaching fifteen years that parents say
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: they found the behavior of the child protection teams, but
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: it could also include the legal teams as well. It
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: might also include the judge. They found their behavior so
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: sinister and bizarre that they said, it's almost as if
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: you were dealing with a cult. What what would your
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: reaction be to that description?
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: I would say I can totally relate. There is a
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: huge darkness. Even just entering the whole family court place,
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: you feel this really dark feeling. It's a very very
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: dark place. And the people that we encountered, they seemed
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: very very dark, even in the eyes, you know, their
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: eyes were very black, and they just seemed very emotionless
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: and very cold, like almost robotic.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I've witnessed I've witnessed this myself in family
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: court cases. And one particular case I've never forgotten because
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: the lady pointed out that as far as she could
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: see all each woman in the in the case, So
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: that was the sort of cafcass woman on the social
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: services team. All the think we're all wearing black nail polish. Now,
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: I know some women do wear black nail polish, but
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: they were all wearing black nails and it was a
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: very strange little thing. Does it mean something? Possibly not,
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: but to the family or to the to the lady
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: who was present anyway, it seemed to be very strange. Yeah,
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: you've got an audience at the moment. What would you
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: like to say to the people who are watching this,
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: Whether they're in UK or they're overseas, it will be both,
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: what would you like to say to them?
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I'd just like to say that, you know, I
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: really think that the public needs to be made more
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: aware that this is actually happening, because I've had people
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: turn around to me and say, you know, they don't
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: just take children for no reason. Now, my case and
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: my daughter's case is a clear example of how they do,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: and literally come into a good love and hiring, they
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: take children for absolutely no lawful reason whatsoever. And I
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 2: think that should be really worrying to everybody because it
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: could happen to their children too. You know, the more
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: cases I hear about across quite a few on my Facebook,
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: and you know, I get really really upset because you know,
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: it's unbearable to just think about these children and babies
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: being ripped away from their loving families, you know, and
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: you think, you know, you're going about your daily life
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: happy and peaceably, and you don't expect that someone is
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: suddenly going to come into your life like that and
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: just rip your family apart, because you know, the damage
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: is absolutely horrific that it does. You know, it's absolutely
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: life changing, and the children, you know, it's the children's lives.
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: You know, they're they're going to suffer for the rest
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: of their life. You know, this type of can only
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: be described as trauma. You know, it is barbaric, is
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: absolutely barbaric. And anyone that can do that to a family,
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: you know, I think people need to be talking about it,
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: and they need to not be scared to come forward
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: because you know, they really want mums and dads to
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: be too scared to speak up about what they're doing.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: I think this is why they're getting away with it,
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: because they're expecting that, you know, they'll send you a
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: letter or a court letter telling you if you're not
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: quiet about it, if you talk about it, you're going
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: to go to prison to naturally, you know, mums and
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: dads are going to be too scared to talk about
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: what's happened to them because of really percussions. And I
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 2: think this is why they're being allowed to continue doing
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 2: what they're doing. And it's like a bullying racket. You know,
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: they're stealing your children. They're telling you if you tell anybody,
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: I'm going to put you in prison. You know, it's horrific,
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: absolutely horrific.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: And let's add another factor. And last few days actually
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: the Daily Mail printed a story in which it was
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: pointing out that the moment a child goes through a
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: family court case, so the child, if you like, is
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: entering the so called child protection system, about two hundred
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: and eighty thousand pounds has been spent in that's setting
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: up the whole thing, all the experts, the court. And
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure the exact figure of the number of
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: children that are really care at the moment, it's about
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: seventy thousand. It increased dramatically during lockdown. It may be
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: as high as seventy five thousand. But if the audience
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: care to get a calculator and multiply two hundred and
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: eighty thousand by seventy five thousand, you will find that
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: you're into a multi billion pound child industry before anything
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: else has happened to the children long term care, where
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: individuals might be paid several thousand pounds a week to
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: care for a child that's got special and difficult learning
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: difficulties for example, so huge, huge amounts of money. And
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: to be fair to the Daily Mail, to the particular
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: journalists that wrote this story, they pointed out that overwhelmingly
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: the children's homes and the so call care centers are
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: all now operated by private companies and they are boasting
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: of the profits they're making and saying it's a good
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: you know, it's a good industry to get into. So
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: you've got the callousness of the system itself where they're
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: effectively taking children away from parents, but very often, and
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: the children are not directly being fostered by another family.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: They're being fostered by a family who are consuming vast
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: amounts of money per week to do that. So it's
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: an industry. And I also totally agree with you that
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: the agenda is to keep parents frightened and suppressed and
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: stop them or try and stop them from speaking out.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: And I want to say that I've been trying for
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of years to report on these cases, and
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: we have done pretty successfully for some of them. But
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's the number of
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: parents who will have the courage to stand up and
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: speak out that makes the difference. Because if somebody in
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: the general public, or even a viewer of this video says, oh, well, no,
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: this is just not possible. They mum and grandma must
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: have done something, and you say, that's absolutely untrue, and
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 1: I absolutely believe you. If yours is the only case,
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: it doesn't hold much weight. But if we had ten
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: twenty one hundred, two hundred families coming forward telling effectively
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: the same story about what happened, it is their personal
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: testimony that is the evidence that the British state, the
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: UK government is stealing children.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: And I'd like to mention as well that you know,
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 2: I come from a very big family. I'm actually the
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 2: eldest of seven, and my mum and dad and my
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: siblings have all been incredibly shocked by this whole you know,
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: this whole case, because they've basically been cut out of
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: my grandchildren's lives as well. You know, there's nothing been
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 2: put in place for them to see them, and they
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: just can't get their heads around it because they know
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: my family so well, and my friends they know my
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: family so well. They you know, they're totally in shock.
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 2: It's opened their eyes up because they never ever thought
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: this would happen to our family. I mean me personally.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: I used to actually volunteer in two schools in Essex
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: and I do my regular safeguarding as well, so you know,
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 2: this should not have happened to our family. Like, none
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: of us have a criminal record, never had any drug
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: problems or alcohol problems. You know, the fact that there
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: is no issues whatsoever. That's the very concerning thing because
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: I understand that in some families sometimes it's because they've had,
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: like say, drug issues or alcohol problems or something like that. Literally,
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 2: in our case, there has been nothing whatsoever, and that's
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: what makes it even more concerning because it means it
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: could happen to anybody. It can happen to me and
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 2: my family, It can happen to anyone.
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: And the other thing I'll add to that is that
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: this used seemingly, This used to happen to people who
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: would be vulnerable in some way, so that they could
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: have drug issues, or they could basically be poor, or
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: they could living on benefits and having a tough life,
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: or they might have some learning difficulties, and it was poorer,
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: weaker people who were clearly targeted for their children. We've
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: also seen that the targeting as switched to immigrants, particularly
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: people where English isn't their first language, so mothers in
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: particular that don't have very good English their children have
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: been targeted. I was being pretty well informed of some
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: stuff going on in the Sheffield area probably a couple
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: of years ago, where Romany communities were being targeted for
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: their children. So we've got people who are vulnerable by
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: virtue of the fact they're poor, have got learning difficulties,
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: or their migrants and they haven't got a very good
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: knowledge of the country they all targeted. But also in
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: more recent years we've seen social services trying to snatch
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: the children from professional people and in a couple of
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: occasions they've even it's like their confidence is increasing and
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: they've gone for the children of people legally qualified solicitors
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 1: and barristers, and so you get the impression that the
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: confidence in these people and their criminal activities is increasing.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: Agree with you. The message to the public listening to
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: your story, and what it really means is you need
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: to wake up very quickly, because this is demonstrating it
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter who you are, your children are not safe
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: if social services decide to come for them. And if
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: you're thinking, well, I hadn't done anything wrong so they
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: won't come for me, this is absolutely untrue. They target
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: children for all sorts of reasons, including the fact they're
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 1: particularly attractive children with blonde hair and blue eyes, or
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: even that they're twins.
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: Both my children, yeah, had very striking features and were
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: very healthy looking. Sorry, it is you know, especially the
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: fact that they've both been marked up a possible adoption,
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: so you know that to us was very kind of
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: shocking and eye opening.
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: Claire, one of the things that always interests me around
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: these cases is the reaction from the press. Have you
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: tried to get papers to cover the story or other
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: journalists BBC?
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've literally reached out to every single media outlet
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: that I could think of, and even the independent ones
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: that I was given names of. I've sent emails every
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: single one, and I've been absolutely shocked to have no
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 2: response from any of them whatsoever. And given how serious
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: are you know what's happened to us is I thought
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 2: that at least one of them would be covering what's happened. Yeah,
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 2: it seems to be like some type of restriction that
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 2: they're not allowed to report it, or they don't want
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 2: to get involved, whichever the reason.
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: All those things, and I think there's also a fear
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: factor with some of the mainstream journalists. They're actually too
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: frightened to get involved, and they know something really bad
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: is going on, but they're too frightened to get involved,
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: and or the new paper itself and the editorial team
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: is warned off by the judge. Ultimately, Claire, I think
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: we've probably come to a natural end for this. I
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: hope that you will do some more work with me.
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going to put it that way. But I think
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 1: for our viewers today, they're going to be pretty shocked
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: at what you've described. And I know from the comments
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: that come back into the column when we do these
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 1: sorts of interviews that many people find just sitting and
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: listening to the sorts of things you're talking about very distressing.
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: So there are a lot of good people out there
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 1: in this country, and hearing the reality of what's taking
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: place in the family courts does make an impact on them.
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: But we need those people to also stand up and
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: be counted, and this is how we're going to do it.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: Let me just end by saying, you've you've conducted the
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: whole of this interview holding your phone, so that must
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: have been very hard, but well done because I don't
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: know how you've managed to keep it so stable. I
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: think my hand would have been warbling all over the place.
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: So well done for that, and well done for having
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: the courage to speak to us.
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, I just want people to know the
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: truth because obviously, you know, I don't see how else
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: we're going to get this problem sorted out without making
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 2: it known to the public what's going on. You know,
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: it's the only way that this type of evil gets stopped.
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 2: Why people talking about it and exposing it. Yeah.
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, Okay, let's end it there, but we will do
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: We will certainly do a part two. So thank you
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: very much, Thank you very much.