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Terms in Disability · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why We Do what we Do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what we Do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: politically correct host, Abraham.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm your happy to adjust host Shane.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do, and we're currently
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: in a series of episodes discussing disability and ability and
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: accessibility and the various topics sort of in that category
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: of things. So welcome. I hope that you enjoy what
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: you hear in this one today, and if you're joining
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: us for the first time, then you're catching us in
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: the middle. But I do think that these episodes are
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: fully intended to stand on their own. They're not sequels,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: but we wanted to just cover all of these topics
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: and do so altogether in sort of a release schedule,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: if you will, almost like a season. If it's something
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: like that.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a nice little like standalone series,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: like almost like one shots in comics, where we're just
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: trying to cover specific topics and just give you more
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: information that are all like generally linked but stand on
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: their own, kind of like how the MCU should have been.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly like that. Yeah, we'd like to see you. Yeah,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: whether you are new here or you are a returning person.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Either way, we are so happy to have you here.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy what you hear in this discussion today.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: If you do, and you would like to support us,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: that you can like and subscribe, leave a rating and
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: a review, join us on Patreon. I'll talk more about
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: the ways that you can support us at the end
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: of this discussion. But this episode publishes on November twenty sixth,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: which means we'd like to wish you a happy Blackout Wednesday.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, it's also Coton de Tulear Day.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Okay, it is is Peanuts Day. No, sorry, good Grief.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Day, oh man, so wholesome. It's a National Cake Day.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: It is National Jukebox Day.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: That's kind of fun. Sure, it's Spike Giving, which is just,
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of fun.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Eh.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Sure, It's Tai one on Day, Yes it is. It
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: is what do you Love About America Day? So it's
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: a really short.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Day, really short celebration.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because we will be not releasing an episode on Thanksgiving,
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: but and you probably won't be listening to this before, during,
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: or immediately after Thanksgiving and some time thereafter but happy Thanksgiving.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: I hope that it either goes greater was great.
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  Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy the food that you like to
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  Speaker 2: enjoy and that your family is calm and does not
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: cause you problems.
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  Speaker 1: And relatedly to that, it is also Better Conversation Week,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Yes it is.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: It's also Church State Separation Week. Big fan of that
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: that should be forever.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just the century of that or millennia.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: It is g E r D or GIRD awareness week.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Perfect for Thanksgiving. I guess it is a National adoption
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: week for all you pro lifers out there.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, making up a huge amount of the adoption pool
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: they are. Yeah, it is National Family Week. That makes
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: sense to me.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Yep. It's National Farm City Week.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Also makes sense to me. And it is importantly and
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: certain last and best National Game and Puzzle Week.
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  Speaker 2: I knew you were gonna love that day, that week
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  Speaker 2: the whole time. So it was good.
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  Speaker 1: I really really do I do. Yeah, all right, But
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  Speaker 1: we do talk about those holidays because it's fun, but
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: it's not the primary thing we do, and it's probably
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: not the primary reason that you are here. Instead, we're
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: talking about terms in disability and mostly the purpose of
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: this discussion is to specifically go over just kind of
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: the language we use as we're talking about disability. This
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: sort of embodies the fact that we are as a
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  Speaker 1: show we embrace the values of the social model of
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  Speaker 1: disability and those sort of person centered, humanistic values of
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  Speaker 1: disability and that sort of thing. And we feel like
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  Speaker 1: there are a lot of terms that it is just
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  Speaker 1: worth discussing. Many of you will know these, like some
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  Speaker 1: of those concepts will not be new to you, but
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  Speaker 1: some of these were things that even I learned as
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  Speaker 1: I was putting together the notes for this, And so
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  Speaker 1: it's just like, how do we use our language in
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  Speaker 1: a way that is supportive and does not cause undoe, distress,
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  Speaker 1: or harm to those of us who have some kind
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  Speaker 1: of impairment or condition.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So we're going to talk about how our language
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  Speaker 2: shifts and changes and all that. And you know, the
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: language that we use to talk to and about people
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  Speaker 2: does not carry inherent meaning because everything's made up. We
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: make up all of our language. So that means that
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: we can change everything as we go. Yeah, but it
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  Speaker 2: does carry current cultural values and meanings. Less than a
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: year ago, maybe even just a few months ago. The
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: sounds six seven meant nothing. Arguably they still mean nothing,
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  Speaker 2: and I think it's really important to remember that, and
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  Speaker 2: they will continue to mean nothing well into the.
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  Speaker 1: Future when we've forgotten them.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when we've forgotten them. But all of a sudden,
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: this is the word of the year, and that just
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: kind of shows how rapidly language evolves. It's just kind
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: of like why bootylicious is in the dictionary.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a word that also does not get used anymore.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
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  Speaker 1: So the language we use to talk to and about people,
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  Speaker 1: it does directly impact our thoughts and feelings about those
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: people and also how those people feel when they're spoken
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  Speaker 1: to or addressed, And so we just want to be
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  Speaker 1: mindful of how we are saying things that affects then
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  Speaker 1: how we think about them and how we feel about them,
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  Speaker 1: and how the people who are on the receiving end
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  Speaker 1: of that have to experience that language. And just again
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: it's bringing some mindfulness and intentionality to that kind of language.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're going to discuss some terms of practices
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: and disability that are considered politically correct or incorrect, which
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: is to say, insulting, inoffensive, or compassionate and acceptable, with
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: some caveats. Of course, because this episode may eventually not
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: even be relevant as we kind of like unpack some
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: of these things.
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  Speaker 1: All right, So I think that is a sufficient preamble
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  Speaker 1: to get started into this. Is there anything that I
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  Speaker 1: missed before we are ready to dive into the sort
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  Speaker 1: of main content?
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  Speaker 2: No, I think we're ready to go.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: I will say this is the kiss of death for
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: us always, but this is probably going to be a
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: shorter episode. There's just why would you do that? I know,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: I know, I've condemned us to death. Every time we
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: say that, the episode ends up going like past our
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: normal median range. But I don't even know if that's
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: possible here, So I guess I'm challenging the universe to
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: prove me wrong. Yeah, but let's go ahead and dive
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: into it. So our language is an ever evolving thing.
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  Speaker 1: I found this really cool YouTube video at one point
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  Speaker 1: where it played some sentences from that were in English
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  Speaker 1: from a few centuries years ago, and they were unintelligible,
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  Speaker 1: like you could not make out cognate words in there
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  Speaker 1: for what they were supposed to mean. And then they
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: just kept jumping through every like every fifty years or
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  Speaker 1: maybe a century or whatever, and you start to see
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: the language, you start to hear it morph into a
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: language that's familiar. But our language is continuously evolving, you know,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: five hundred years from now, assuming we haven't killed each
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: other off, we will if we were to listen to
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: this podcast, it might sound unintelligible to them because of
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: how much language could have changed. So as our language evolves,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: so too will our relation to the words that are
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: part of that language. That will change also will espouse
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  Speaker 1: some observations about the language we use to talk about
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  Speaker 1: disability that are relevant at the time of this recording.
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  Speaker 1: But who knows how quickly some of this information will
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  Speaker 1: go out of the mainstream. Some of it will probably
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  Speaker 1: last for a while, but some of it will become
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  Speaker 1: incorrect or irrelevant almost immediately. And like, that's just a
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  Speaker 1: thing to know that it happens, and we accept that
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  Speaker 1: it happens, like it's just part of our language. But
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  Speaker 1: we do our best with right now, you know what
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  Speaker 1: I mean?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And some people are disturbed, distressed, or angry
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  Speaker 2: at the constantly shifting attitudes around terminology that is considered
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  Speaker 2: correct or incorrect as they relate to being offensive or not.
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  Speaker 2: People really struggle with this and you'll hear people kind
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  Speaker 2: of argue against change like this. They'll say, we use
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  Speaker 2: that word my whole life, or we use these words
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  Speaker 2: my whole life, and they were never a problem. But
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  Speaker 2: I think it's in people dislike change and it is
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  Speaker 2: uncomfortable for some folks. But it does happen rapidly. It
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  Speaker 2: does happen with changing generations. It can happen year to year,
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  Speaker 2: let alone decade to decade or century to century. But
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  Speaker 2: it is important to like people. It really at the
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  Speaker 2: end of the day, people really struggle with some of
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  Speaker 2: these changes, and then other people just they adapt really quickly.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And for those who do struggle, their dissatisfaction might
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: come from being corrected when they're trying to stay on
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  Speaker 1: top of things and then they're still being told that
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  Speaker 1: they're wrong, and they're like, I thought I was doing
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  Speaker 1: the right thing, and now you're telling me that I'm
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  Speaker 1: wrong again, and that's where they sort of get frustrated.
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  Speaker 1: But some of the people their frustration will come from
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  Speaker 1: they feel like things are changing around them and they're
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  Speaker 1: expected to just change along with it, even though they're
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  Speaker 1: kind of being left out of those conversations, and they're
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  Speaker 1: just sort of like, man, why do why you have
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  Speaker 1: to be the one who keeps on like everyone else
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  Speaker 1: is just makes these arbitrary decisions, and now I have
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  Speaker 1: to go along with it. And there are some I
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  Speaker 1: think who just they are willing to change, of course,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: But for those who experience frustration around this, I think
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: those are kind of the camps they fall into. Is
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  Speaker 1: the like I'm saying things, That's how I've said them,
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  Speaker 1: that's how I've heard other people say them, and now
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  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're telling me I'm wrong. And
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: then there are others who are just like, why are
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  Speaker 1: you changing this? Like this is the language we use,
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: and they There may be others, but those are some
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: of the ones I thought of when thinking about, like,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: what's going on for people who experience frustration around the
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: shifting language.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think sometimes too, like I think people
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  Speaker 2: will be frustrated with it because I think that the
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: correction may seem like somebody is telling them that they're
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: doing something wrong because they think that they're trying to
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: be intentionally harmful. Their intent is always good, like they're
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: trying to be mindful, they don't ever want to hurt people,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: but now they're being told that they're hurting people, yeah,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: or you're using the wrong language, And so that is
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: frustrating because it's like, that's you know, it's a conversation
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: between intent and impact. And I think that that is
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: an important conversation. Oh yeah, critically important conversation. But also
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: I could see being frustrated when you your intent is
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: never to harm, but you accidentally do. I could see
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: some people getting really upset about that.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good point, and
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  Speaker 1: the intent versus impact is a great distinction to bring
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: in here.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and some people might be frustrated with the fact
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: that they that they'll adopt new language knowing it's just
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: going to change again in some undetermined amount of time
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: that may be very brief, and so they're kind of
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: thinking like, well, what's the point of learning this new
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: term or new phrase or this new way of speaking
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: about this when it's just going to change in a
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: couple months anyway.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I do think there are some people who
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: they dislike that it feels that like people are just
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: chasing things to be offended by, and that there's no
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: language that's safe from correction. So it's sort of like, oh, look,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: You've picked some new word that makes you mad, and
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: now I have to change the things I say again,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: and that'll make you mad. And so they see people
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: as sort of looking for attention by getting offended by things.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: I don't think that they're right, but I do think
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: that they might feel that way about it.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then some people enjoy the fact that some
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: of the terms are cruel and they want to retain
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: their ability to speak to others in a cruel and
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: offensive way. You know who they are, and it rhymes
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: with will say Republicans.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Right, We're just trying to enumerate conditions under which we're
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: wrapping our heads around understanding why people struggle with the
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: fact that language constantly evolves, and like we are legitimately
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: trying to understand that because it's a thing that happens,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: and we want to understand human behavior and we want
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: to be compassionate to it and also provide some suggestions
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: for how we move forward. And a major barrier to
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: that is ads always all right, we are back. So
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: we've been describing the various camps of people who are
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: attitudes that might be associated with being frustrated with the
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: shifting language of our times. And if you fall into
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: the camp of people who struggle with the seemingly endless
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: treadmill of terms that cycle through being considered politically correct
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: and then later politically incorrect, I would actually like to
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: express compassion and patients for that position. I appreciate that
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: those in that group, they want to do the right
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: thing and they just struggle, like they're feeling like they're
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: constantly being corrected. Because I feel like your heart is
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: in the right place. Like it sucks when people don't
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: give you space to learn new terms in a safe,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: constructive way rather than just being berated for getting it wrong.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: And like I think that it's not appropriate or compassion
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: in it to like make people feel wrong because they
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: use something in a way that they did not know
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: was a way they is not considered politically correct anymore. Yeah,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: And so like I think I do have a listening
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: and a compassion for that. And like I've been I've
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: been the person where I was being corrected on those things,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: and like that doesn't feel very good and it's like
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that, Like you don't have to make
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: me feel like a terrible person because of something I
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: didn't know. And so I really do have compassion for
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: that group of people. So I hear you, I see
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: you keep trying. We are we are compassionate and patient
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: with you.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that it's also important to say
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: that that is not in lieu of using the correct
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: terms either, right, Like, we feel for the people who
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: are learning, and we also feel for the people who
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: are victimized by the terms.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Like.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: I think it's like one of those things where, you know,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I think that we take the stance of the podcast
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: that that almost everybody, the majority of people are always
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: intending to try to do the right thing in all
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: those situations. I think genuine only people care about other people.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: I think that they don't want to harm. I think
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: that their intent is almost always good for the most part.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: And I think I can't imagine being on the other
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: side of that conversation where you know the term is
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: being used incorrectly or the incorrect humor is being used
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: and that's harmful to like, So I have compassion for
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: the folks that are the direct target and experience that,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: like the misuse of the terms and the use of
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: the wrong terms, And I also feel for the people
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: who are trying to learn, who are like really in
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: it for the right reasons, And it's a really confusing
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: time because language is very complex and very unique, and
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: it does shift and change rapidly.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's great, that's very useful clarification. Now, I do
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: think that most of us can at the very least
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: wrap our heads around the fact that we don't like
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: being talked down to or offended by ignorant comments. So
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: being told that we're stupid, worthless, and inconvenience and shouldn't
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: exist is something that we don't appreciate. So we can
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: embrace the corresponding value that we don't want to do
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: that to other people. Yeah, And so that we when
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: we use our language in a way that does make
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: people feel othered in that way because of their impairment
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: or their disability, we can understand that we wouldn't want
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: to be treated that way ourselves, most of us, right, right.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: And so we should be paid. You with people who
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: are learning the terminology and without being accusatory, let them
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: know the terms that are more considerate and less offensive.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Your relationship to the person will likely impact how you
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: go about saying this. I do firmly believe in the
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: concept of radical candor. Like you do give people feedback
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: and correct them, like based on the fact that you
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: care about them and you want them to experience like
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: good things. So, like I do believe that like a
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: one on one personal feedback opportunity, I think is really good. Yeah,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: and some people can say you're not supposed to say
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: it that way, dumbass, say it this way, or and
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: have that land favorably with their audience. Some of us
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: will need to approach it more gently something perhaps like
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: I learned that apparently the preferred term is blank because
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: of X, Y Z reasons, And you could do that
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: and just kind of like give that correction, move on.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: There's lots of ways to do that. But I do
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: think that there's a softer approach and then there's a
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: more sarcastic approach. There are some studies that show that
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: sarcastic feedback, if you have a good relationship with somebody,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: can be really effective, right, you know, So it really
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: depends on your relationship.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's exactly what we mean here, is is
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: the fact that like, if you have that relationship with
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: someone and they use a term in correct and be like, hey,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: stop it, stop being a jerk, Yeah, cut it out. Yeah,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: or it's being like all right, I don't know, it's
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: gonna come up with some sarcastic name for them and
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: like point out that they've done it wrong, and like
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: that will actually land really well with them because that's
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: the nature of the relationship. But I think generally speaking,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: we want to approach people in the way that's going
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: to work best for them, and if we don't know
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: them very well, then like, let's just be compassionate and
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: patient and like, as you said, sort of radical candor,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: but a way to say it diplomatically.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah. I actually like I feel like I have
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: the experience of when I watch people who they try
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: to interact and they just are sort of yes to
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: everything because they want to be liked in that conversation,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: and they start agreeing to things that I know that
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: the don't agree to. I'm like, I feel like this
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: is not doing anyone any favors. Like this person needs
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: to hear that they're wrong about these things. Yeah, you
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: can't just keep telling them that they're right, because the
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: more we tell them that, the more they'll believe it.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: I'm like, it's okay for us to disagree with each
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: other the whole point of us having like a society
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: is that we communicate and learn from each other like
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: and that means that there's gonna be disagreements sometimes and
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: when we talk it out, like we just need to
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: have a conversation. Absolutely, So I don't know, I agree
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: with I agree with that all a lot. Okay, So anyway,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: this is a boatload of preamble basically half the episode
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: at this point to get to the main point here.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: But we're also gonna have to say some things as
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: we go through this that are on the offensive side
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: while explaining the terminology and the incorrect terminology. We're going
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: to try and keep it to a minimum. We're gonna
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: avoid I mean, we added a list of like everything
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: we could possibly say, and we before recording sort of
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: discuss which ones made the most sense to like, partially
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: because they're less likely to be known. So we're gonna
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: try and keep it to a minimum. If there's something
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: you strung to listen to, you might want to skip
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: the rest of this discussion. Again, we're not going to
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: be using super derogatory terms, I don't think, but we
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: are going to try and list like here's how to
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: say it, how not to say it and how not
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: to say a part is going to contain some offensive language.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think also too, we want to make
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: sure that we open it up so that if you
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: do have feedback or comments or thoughts or an adapt please
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: send it our way.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: We take the stance that we are open to learning
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: new ways to say things, given our our learning histories,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: our privileges and all those things. So we do want
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: to make sure that you know that this is an
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: open space for us to receive feedback to. So, so
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: with all that being said, as we described it, our
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: model's a disability episode. Disability is productively viewed as an impairment,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: and the disability is a barrier created by poorly designed systems.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: So mostly we describe impairments rather than disabilities when talking
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: about people, but disabilities is an appropriate is appropriate when
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: describing environmental barriers.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, all right, So let's go ahead and get into
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: some of the main issues that we're going to talk
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: about with respect to language and how we talk about
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: these things. And the first one is called person first
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: versus identity first language and what that means. First, this
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: is a complex and evolving issue as well. Looking back,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: it's around the nineteen seventies with disability advocacy groups. They
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: started with this idea of person first language. And the
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: whole value here is that people are not defined by
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: their disability, but that they are people first and whatever
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: the disability they might have second. That started in the
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: seventies with some of those advocacy groups, and then it
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: spread and became more popular in the nineteen eighties. And
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: as I said, that's called person first language. Yeah.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: And in two thousand and six in Washington, DC, a
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: council enacted the People First, Respectful Language Moderganization Act of
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: two thousand and six, which just rolls.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Off the tongue it does.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: It requires that laws be written such that language about
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: people with disabilities is respectful and puts the person first.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: So that's where you might see person with blank yes, right,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: And that's that's usually where you that's that's where that
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: comes from.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: And I didn't I guess I didn't clarify, Yeah, that
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: you're exactly right, that the identity first is putting the
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: impairment and then something about the person, so like they're
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: a deaf person, they're an autistic person, they're a I
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: don't know, I guess I'm trying to think of words,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: not I'm thinking of words, not to say, yeah, they're
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: they're a blind person. And so the blind, the deaf,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: the autistic, whatever is the thing coming first, and they're
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: arguing instead put the person first, the person who is blind,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: a person who is deaf, they're a person who is autistic.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: And that was sort of the language here, And the
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: value espoused in this is that people should be talked
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: about as people before being talked about as their disability.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: And in this language, it was considered inappropriate to describe
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: someone as being an autistic person because it puts their
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: identity before their personhood. Person first language instead advocates that
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: we describe the person as a person with autism. It
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: could be a boy with autism, a girl with autism,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: a kid with autism, a person with autism, as long
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: as their personhood came first. And so you can sort
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: of see the value there was trying to look at
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: a respectful tone to take when talking about these communities.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, However, many people in those communities advocated for the
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: fact that their identity was inherently tied to their impairment
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: and that they preferred identity first. Language. So in this approach,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: calling somebody an autistic person was more appropriate than calling
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: them a person with autism. So just as an example,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: which is exactly the opposite as the previous recommendation provided.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: And that's happened only, I mean, I don't want to
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: say only that's become more prevalent. I would say a
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: more common talking point in the last like several.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Years, yeah, maybe ten years, maybe.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Ten years that we've really seen this. And I've seen
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: some really good infographics that'll show like a person and
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: they'll be holding a bag and the bag just says autism,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: and they're like, this is a person with autism. And
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: then it'll show a person where they like in the
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: bag is like maybe like colored like the autism spectrum,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: you know, Like they'll do that. Yeah, they're like this
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: person with autism. And then they'll show a person who
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: is the full color of the spectrum, and they go,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: this is an autistic person. And you could see the
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: difference between how the language might be used in that
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: really cool visual. I think that's always really helpful for me.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: That was helpful for me to change the way that
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: I was using it. But it is something that is
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: only a more recent change that that's been part of
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: a larger discussion point in the last few years.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Right, and ultimately where we've sort of landed, at least
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: at the time of this recording, is that it's just preference.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: It's some people will prefer to be called a person
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: used person first language, say a person with autism. Some
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: people will prefer to be called an autistic person. And
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: the community seems to the autistic community seems to have
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: largely advocated for identity first, but they also just leave
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: it open to like whatever people are most comfortable with,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: go with that, and so it's just a matter of asking, like,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: how would you like me to refer to you? So, yeah,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: like what did we learn from this big back and forth?
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: People are going to have their preferences for how they're
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: talked about and how they're described. If you're not sure,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: ask what they prefer, because you know, I think the
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: issue is a lot of this is thing decisions were
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: being made without necessarily including those communities in those decisions,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: and then initially they some of the advocacy groups did
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: start with some of those people, but it kind of
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: then left them behind, and then the conversations kind of
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: happened without them and it was sort of turned around
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: and were like, oh, wait, what do you guys want
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: to have happened? And then we got a different information. So,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: you know, just thinking about like if I was talking
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: to Elon Musk, I might want a default to calling
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: him a vile piece of garbage and waste of life,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: but he might actually prefer waste of life, vile piece
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: of garbage, or maybe he prefers useless pile of Either way,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: I'm I can ascertain how best to refer to him
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: if I'm not sure which one he prefers, because any
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: one of them might be correct.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, absolutely, I mean one politician boldly claimed that
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: their gender pronouns are kick and ass, So yes, you
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: can call that person ass because specifically that's how they
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: prefer to be addressed. And I agree that's actually an
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: apt way to refer to that specific.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but at all serious, like if someone who has
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: a vision impairment might, for example, be preferred to be
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: called blind, someone might be preferred to be called visually impaired.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: It's likely a rule that just can't be universally applied.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: So again it's just we get figure out what you
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: can look and see what those advocacy groups are currently
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: saying you can also just talk to the person and
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: ask them how they prefer to be referred to if
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: you feel the need to refer to them, and include
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: their impairment as part of that referral.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this could be used in other spaces too,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: not just disability. Like I'm gonna I want to use
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: the example of my buddy as an English teacher, and
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: he was recently given some feedback. He had a black
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: student in his class. He had refrained from using the
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: term African American. They were doing some poetry and some
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: readings from African American or from black authors, and so
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: he had been explicitly told that African American was not preferred,
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: so they went with black. And he had a students
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: class eventually come to him and say she preferred person
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: of color. And so again you could see how like
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: some sometimes the communities may not agree on what they're called.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Like sometimes you have to go with the individual and
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: what the individual prefers in the space of those communities
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: as somebody who belongs to that community, rather than me,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: as an outsider of that community, choosing what that person
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: should be called.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, that's exactly correct. I do feel like most
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: people universally don't prefer ads.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: That's true.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: All right, we are back. Let's get into some more
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: of the sort of dos and don'ts around here. This
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: is going to be more specific with some of the
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: terms that you might have heard or used and so
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: again at the time of this recording. Some of this
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: might change very quickly after we record this, but we'll
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: do our best. The general principle here is to use
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: language that communicates respect for the person and their preferences,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: without judgment about their condition. A lot of the idea
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: here is to emphasize abilities rather than limitations. So if
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: you're going to talk, if you feel the need to,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: if it's helpful in some way to be communicating about
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: an impairment, to focus on what that person does rather
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: than what they can't or struggle to do. Right.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: One example is the term you might have heard this
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: term wheelchair bound, and so, instead of saying wheelchair bound,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: which emphasizes that the person can't do or implies the
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: wheelchairs a kind of prison that we should feel sorry
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: for that person who is stuck there, instead we might
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: use something like a person who uses a wheelchair or
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: a person who you know, maneuvers using a wheelchair or
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: something along those lines.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: There's also like people who have disabilities that affect their communication.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: We have historically described them as nonverbal or can't talk,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: and again the only focuses on the limitation, but it
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily tell you what they can do or what
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: to expect. Instead, you could say something like uses a
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: communication device or alternative communication methods, and that lets you
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: know that, like they might be using sign language, they
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: might be using pictures, they might be using text. But
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: just saying that their nonverbal doesn't really tell us very
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: much about them, and it focuses on there. Again, it
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: focuses on the limitations and not their their abilities.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Right, instead of describing people with disabilities as suffering from
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: their condition or a victim of their condition, you can
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: simply say has disability if that's what they prefer, or
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: say what that disability is, such as a visual impairment
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: or being deaf or hard of hearing. You can use
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: those instead of saying they're a victim of that.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole language around just like saying suffering from
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: or victim of or things like that, like is just
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: like it's just really difficult. It really infantilizes, and also
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: it just is condescending to those people. And there's also
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: a tendency I think a lot of people have sometimes
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: to try and rank the severity of the disability, such
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: as like how impacted they are, And we can really
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: just say that someone is impacted or just what their
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: disability is, but qualifiers about how significant it is applies
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: judgment about it. Like everyone's just different. So it's like
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: like severely, like they're severely handicapped, as like, we don't
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: need that adjective. It doesn't really help us in any
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: particular way. I'm like, they're extremely blind, they're partially deaf.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I'm like, let's just say this is a person with
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: the hearing impairment. Let's do our best to accommodate them
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: in a way that works. And so like we don't
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: need to necessarily have some ranking system about how significant
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: we interpret their disability to be. And again, all of
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: us are going to be different along these lines anyway.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So one really good example of this that we
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: see currently is that right now, the preferred nomenclature for
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: people diagnosed with specific neurological or cognitive impairments, the current
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: accepted broad term is the term neurodivergent. And I want
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: to point this out real quick too, because I think
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: this is really important. Is that when you get into
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: these discussions and start kind of like having conversations with
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: members of the community, you'll find that even underneath that term,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: there is still debate as to what is considered neurodivergent. Yeah,
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: and the idea is that we could see this going
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: away in the future. We could see as we find
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: that more people fall into neurodivergent, maybe they're not diverging
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: from the quote unquote neurotypical space, but you'll find that,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: like there are still some debates, Like anxiety comes up
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: a lot because it's often tangentially related to some of
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: the other diagnoses underneath neurodivergent. So like generalized anxiety disorder
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: shows up, and people will say, yes, it does belong,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: No it doesn't belong. Some people will say every mental
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: health diagnosis belongs in that. Some people will say it
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: really only has to do with the neuroscience part of it.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: And so it's really an interesting space. And I just
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: kind of lean into if somebody says that they prefer
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: to be described as neurodivergent, I'm just going to go
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: with it. I'm not going to argue with them. Why
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: would I. That seems like a waste of time if
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: this person is telling me, Like that'd be like if
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: somebody told me that their preferred name is Bobby versus Robert. Yeah,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: like I would call them Bobby versus Robert. I wouldn't
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: call them Robert to spike them, Like it's going to
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: improve their quality of life by calling them what they
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: prefer to be called. So it doesn't matter to me
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: if it's their preference. But I do think there's just
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: it's important to know that there are lots of discussions
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: inside of this particular label right now.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, the idea is like divergent from what like
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: it's not like there's actually normal anything, Like every everybody
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: is totally unique, So it's I could see this being
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: a term that kind of just completely goes away. But yeah,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: right now, like this is generally considered PC. A lot
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: of some people accept this, but the conversations are ongoing
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: and this is probably going to change. But that's sort
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: of a where we're at with that particular term. In general,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: around disabilities, it's really recommended to just avoid euphemisms. These
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: are condescending that make it seem like there's something to
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: hide or something wrong with a person like that we're
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: something we're trying not to talk about for some reason.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Pretending their impairment doesn't exists almost as bad as being
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: judgmental about it. So it's sort of like the person
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: who's got the the issues. Yeah, like that's not that's
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: not helpful either, even though the word issues is not
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: one that's been flagged as offensive, Like, we don't need
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: to use euphemisms to talk condescendingly about impairments, right.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, So what we want to do is we want
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: to just share a couple of terms that are off it,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: that are pretty common, that are used. And admittedly some
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: of these words are in my own language that I
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: have tried to tried to get out and fade out
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: same and it's really tough, Like I mean, some of
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: these words are going to be ablest, some of these
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: words are going to be sanest, and you'll find some
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: of those types of things going on. But they are
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: terms that are so common that you don't even realize
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: that they're actually a little bit problematic. And again this
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: may change, but right now these are some things that
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: we that we do know, like the term lame. The
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: term lame has come up quite often. It's really a
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: term that is historically used to describe somebody who has
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: some type of mobility impairment. They maybe have a hard
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: time walking, they may walk with a limp, they may
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: walk with a cane, And so that was originally what
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: it was used for, and it's kind of evolved in
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: something that is like something that we don't like, something
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: that's uncool. Ye, And that's kind of how it's often
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: used in like day to day language. But it comes
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: from that space of like, you know, kind of derogatory
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: or condescending.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So in case you weren't clear, this is a
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: list of things not to say.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Another one that's really common is the word this actually
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: was for a while in the eighteen hundreds, like a
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: diagnosis that referred to some kind of I guess we'd
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: call it a diversion at this point, but some kind
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: of like cognitive impairments of some sort or neurological impairment.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: But but yeah, idiot has this long history of that
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: and then being sort of judgmental term. So it's just
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: it's just considered like an an inappropriate non PC term.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just like the R word. I'm not even gonna
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: say it. Yeah, but it is a term that has
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: come up, and it's suddenly gotten this huge resurgence, like
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I'm seeing it all over the place,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: which is like really astounding.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it makes sense. We are a currently
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: administration that is marching backwards through time as quickly as possible.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeh, yeah, that's true.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: They really want to get back to slavery is sort
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: of their ultimate goal.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so that that is a term that I
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: think everybody, I think anybody who's listening this podcast is
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: probably familiar with. So like we probably don't need to
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: spend too much time on that. But the term crazy,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I know that that's in my language. Yeah, and I
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: really try hard to change what I say, And I
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: really am trying to find the right word that fits
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: more with that because you made me. You may hear
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: me say something like bonkers or bananas, but those are
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: also often euphemisms that are designed to replace that. Yeah,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: So I'm trying to find, like, you know, I'm trying
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: to kind of think of like terms like maybe more
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: like ridiculous, or ludicrous or something along those lines, which
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: feels a little bit more like absurdist rather than sayest.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well and you you also have had recommended
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: to me a while back that you say that a
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: good replacement is wild like, something that seems just like,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: as we use the term crazy, we're talking about something
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: that's like unexpected or maybe extreme in some particular way.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: And so just saying wild like gets that idea cross
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: without it being a reference to someone's like mental capacity, yeah,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: or their their sort of current status. I guess. Dumb
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: is another one that actually comes from the deaf community
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: that was like a very old timey way of talking
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: about it, or the people who are mute and so like,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: it's just that is another one that just is it
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: has these these roots in this ablest sort of offensive language.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. A couple other ones that I think are more
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: common that you know. I mean, I think there's some
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: that are like pretty like you know about but like
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: epileptic or spastic. Those are often used in spaces to
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: describe somebody with cerebral palsy who has like maybe some
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: I guess maybe like identified concerns related to mobility and
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: like gross motor movement, and so those terms are kind
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: of moved away, we've moved into different spaces for that,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: but that those are terms that we don't we really
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: shouldn't use anymore.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And like people who have like seizures sometimes are
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: sometimes described that way. And yeah, another reason for this
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: too is like this is another example of like focusing
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: on the limitation and not the ability, like physically challenged
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: like that. That's again that that focuses on the limitation,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: not the ability. It's also not very descriptive, it's not
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: very helpful, and it has really been I think appropriated
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: in some spaces to just be an offensive term. So yeah, again,
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: just let's not use it. Yeah.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Another one that's come up more more recently that I think,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: and I think part of it too is like there
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: are sometimes some of the words on this list, or
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: some of the phrases on this list are more recent
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: updates to how we can move away from these, But
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know that the communities have settled on a
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: preference around this, so it's kind of hard to get
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: consensus around what is the preference. So, like special needs
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: special needs is one that comes up quite a bit,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: and that is kind of a unique one because the
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: term special needs is by some members of the community
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: is actually perfectly fine. They accept it. Some other folks
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: do not. They might decide to use terms like exceptionalities
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: because a lot of times people don't realize that special
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: education refers to all of the levels of support that
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: are beyond what is considered like general education that interudes
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: like gifted programs and honors programs and stuff like that,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: to IB programs are all under special education as well.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: So like, I don't think people realize that part of this,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: and so I think oftentimes we have a connotation with that.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I think that's one that's kind of evolving and changing
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: and still kind of in flux right now.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Actually, I do feel like handicap kind of falls in
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: that category. Like that's still on a lot of legal documents,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: like and when you get like a parking the parking pass,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: I think they still call it a handicap parking pass.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: So like that language is still there. I think, like
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: its current status is not definitive, but it's one generally
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: we want to avoid. But it is also like some
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: it's still used in a lot of spaces.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Well, and also too, there are some members of the
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: community that actually prefer that, like they'll pre sure to
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: say disabled their handicapped as like a like, which is
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: like again, this is and I think this is the
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: part where we were saying that language is evolving. Yeah,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: and and as people, maybe if you're listening to the
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: show and you are a member of one of these
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: communities and you have more insight on this, we would
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: love to know. But like what we're learning is that,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: like there are just some spaces that are starting to evolve.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: There's some that have, Like you know, I think the
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: autistic community is a little bit far further advanced in
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: terms of like finding preferred language or finding community language.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: There's like at least some level consensus, but even then
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: it really depends on the person you're talking to, which
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: is it's complex. It's a very complex thing.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to list a few more without describing
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: them very much, just because I think I think people
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: sort of get it at this point. But some other
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: words to generally avoid are calling people slow, more on invalid.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Most of these have been out of vogue for quite
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: some time, so hopefully that doesn't come as a surprise
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: to anybody. Maybe slow is one that some people still
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: use yeah. Again, just these are because they are non
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: PC terms. One that's actually surprised me was paraplegic. And
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: I reason for this is again focusing on limitations and audibilities.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: So those are sort of a few more to know about.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and again we're not naming these to just kind
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: of like get away with saying them. I want to
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: be really clear about that, Like I don't want to
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: be actually skip the worst ones. But no, we skip
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: the worst ones that we could. Yeah, we even started
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: by saying like, oh I hate I hate this. I
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: had I didn't want to say the things on those lists,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: so it sucks. Yeah, sorry, I guess I just apologize
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: for that. Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, it's more so to
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: highlight how, I think, more importantly, how these words in
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: these phrases were widely accepted as like part of the
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: common descriptors. Like mental retardation is an example of a
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: term that was a medical diagnosis, as psychiatric diagnosis that
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: is still I still see it on psychological reports for
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: people who have like historical reports where they are diagnosed
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: under those different guidelines and requirements. So, like the goal here,
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: the important thing to understand is that while these may
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: have been accepted at one point they are no longer accepted,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: or it's evolving in some way that you have to
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: be aware of it so that you can identify and
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: be aware that it might show up in your language
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: and see if you can find a more appropriate or
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: more acceptable alternative as your language continues to evolve.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, that defensive list brought to you by ADS. Okay,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: we're back. We're sort of about ready to wrap this up.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: I think one of the important things to end this
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: discussion with here is what happens when you get it wrong.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Should you self flagellate? Should you say a thousand hail
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Marys Like? No, that's obviously not what we're going to
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: advocate here. You are probably gonna make mistakes. We probably
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: did in this discussion, or at least they will think
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: these are things that we said that will be viewed
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: as incorrect in the future. And I think the important
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: thing is to just again express some compassion toward the
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: people who are on the receiving end of those mistakes
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and the people who are making them. It's okay to
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: make mistakes, just learn from them, like, just try and
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: learn from them. Like, I think we want to understand
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: that like it's not the end of the world if
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: you say something that's wrong, but like let's just try
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: and do better and like have patience for those people
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: who are figuring that out.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think another thing too that I have
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: learned from spending time working in the trans community is
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: that if you make a mistake, just move forward, Like, yeah,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: don't spend time going I'm so sorry I said that.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Da da da da da da da. Just say oh,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: okay and correct your language and then move forward. The
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: more you harp on it, the more I'm comfortable it
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: is for everybody involved. Like it's just one of those
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: things where you just go, okay, I'm just oh, I
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: called you the wrong I said the wrong term. Okay,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: thank you for that. I'll and else just move on,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Like the more that you apologize, because you're gonna feel guilty,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Like if somebody corrects you, you may feel guilty that
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: you've done some harm. Just correct it and move on.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: The more you spend time spent talking about it is
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: going to be it's gonna make it weirder. Yeah, Like,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: so don't make it weirder. It's already it's already gonna be.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Like you've already made a mistake, don't make it worse, right.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: And then it sounds like you're like make an excuse
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: for you, Like, well, that's just the way that I
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: was talked about, Like here's my dad just said there's
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: one person we knew when I was growing up, and
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: they go, they wouldn't like this, and my dad always
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: called in this, and I'm like, we're so far past
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: this conversation needed to happen, Like please just stop, please
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: just stop, Like we don't need to be talking about this,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Like we made a mistake, we dressed it, we fixed.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: It, it's done. You're making it worse.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go on to something else. Please.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: It's that meme from the Simpsons where like it's Rod
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: or Todd going oh my god, stop and he's already dead.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Like it's that like, just leave it alone. It's done,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: it's fine. You don't need to do you're making your
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: causing more damage, right, And I think another thing to
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: think about, too, is like you want to let the
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: people know around you know, when you're not sure what
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: to do, you can tell them something like I'm not
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: used to communicating about this disability or condition. Please let
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: me know if I make a mistake or say something
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: that is upsetting, or you could start with are you
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: comfortable talking about your disability or do you have preferences
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: for communicating about your disability? Any of those things are
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: are fine. I think part of that is also, like
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: the other recommendation that would make inside of that is
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: like also just doing your independent research around stuff.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good recommendation.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Like, and when I say independent research, I don't mean
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: like going on like YouTube and being like, wellhy like
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: go to like redit me. Yeah, like, go to members
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: of the community that belong to the community, organizations nonprofit
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: organizations that are our advocates for the members of the community,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: and find out if you can even like just speak
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: to advocates inside of that space and see if they
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: have a preference for how to talk about it, and
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: just try to get as much information as you can
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: if you can't. I think that's incredibly valuable.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess actually Reddit it does count in
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: the sense that there are those communities on Reddit, so
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: you could potentially engage with them that way. But yeah,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: just going on to like the whatever offensive in cell
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: group that hates everybody and just wants to say racist
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: and misogynistic slurs. They will not have useful information there
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: about anything, right, let alone this. So yeah, exactly, Okay,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: I think that's what we have to say about terms
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: of disability. If you are listening for the first time.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Something that we do at the end of each of
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: our discussions is we recommend some things. It's usually just
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: something that we found joy in and it's almost never
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: related to the topic that we're talking about, although sometimes
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: it is, but it's not today. So that's a fun
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: thing that we do, and you should stick around through
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: the credits to hear that because it's fun. Before I
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: do that, I would like to say thank you so
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: much for listening. Thank you for my team of people
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: without whom I could not make this happen, writing and
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: fact checking from Shane and myself. Thank you for recording
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: with me today.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Shane Hey, thanks for having me.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the person
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: who stitches together a the amount oh I said it.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: I said the thing a wild amount of edits from
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: making mistakes and cuts out maybe three hundred and fifty
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: million ums, is justin and he does a really good
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: job and that it makes it listenable as a podcast incredible. Also,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: if you would like support us, you can pick up
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: some merch leave us a rating and a review like
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: subscribe so that you always get new episodes as they
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: come out, and go tell a friend because the word
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: of mouth is very important. If you do, head over
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: to our Patreon community. That's something where you if you're
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: not familiar with it, this is like a members club.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: You can sign up. You can sign up for a
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: recurring monthly sort of donation to our cause, and that
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: gets you access to some certain benefits, including ad free episodes,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: early episodes, behind the scenes content, and at the end
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: of our discussions, I'll read the list of names who
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: are so generously helping us continue to be a podcast.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: So big shout out and thank you too, Mike m Megan,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara and Charlie.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, y'all. The beautiful people, beautiful people,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: the beautiful people. All right. I think that is what
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: I have to say about our credits and thank yous.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that I missed or that you'd like
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: to add before we recommend some things?
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: I have nothing else to add right now. I think
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: I think we're good to go.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, let's recommend some things.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, recommendations.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna go first. I'm recommending a little
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: card game. It's called Hen's. I guess you could put
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: it into the category of tabletop games, maybe euphemistically board games,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: but it's just a deck of cards. It's a really
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: quick game. It's for two to four players. There is
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: a solo mode though, so you can play by yourself,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: although I haven't tried that yet, so I guess technically
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: one to four players. And it's you're playing cards. There
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: are suits of cards which are like breeds of hen
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: and you're essentially trying to assemble them into a grid
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: that's a three by four grid or a four by
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: three grid whatever. You're gonna have twelve cards at the end,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: and there's just certain placement rules and so on your turn,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: you draw to cards, play one of them to your grid,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: discard the other. But when you play a card, it
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: either has to match the suit of the card next
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: to it, and then it doesn't matter what the value is,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: or it has to be one more or less than
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: the card next to it. But that includes cards that
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: are above and below into the right of it. So
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: as you're placing these cards, it gets harder and harder
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: to get a card that's going to match those suits,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: and you want to try and have your suits be
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: in groups because you're in a score for the largest
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: number of group, the largest group that you have of
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: the same color, but the colors are also limited. The
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: harder colors to get are worth the most points, but
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: there's not as many of those cards. So anyway, you
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: can play the whole thing in like twenty minutes. It
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: works really well with two players, and I was just
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: really I was really impressed with that. I was like,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: this is just a smart design game. It's like really
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: easy to learn, but there's lots of opportunities for some
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: good strategy, and it's just really well put together. And
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: it's really small. If you had deep pockets, he could
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: fit into some Jinko jeans. But even still, it's like
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: it's you can hold it in one hand very comfortably.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: It's really like a basically hand sized game. So it's
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: a really good travel game. Been really fun and really
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: quick and easy to learn. So Hen's is the game
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: and the publisher is Little Rocket Games, so cute. I
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: love that is an Italian company. Yeah, I love that
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: so much. Beautiful.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: I'm going to recommend something that feels like the opposite
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: of that, which is not tiny and cute. It is
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: a movie called The Running Man. Now here's the thing.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: This is a remake of the movie from the eighties
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: that featured Arnold Swartzenegger.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: This is also an adaptation of a Stephen King story
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: which he wrote it under. Yeah, but he wrote it
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: under He wrote it as Richard Bachman, which has his
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: own his own that's its fun own like its own story.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: For those of you who don't know. Stephen King decided
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: that because he was his works as Stephen King were
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: working so well, and people were criticizing him that he
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: was only selling books because he was Stephen King. He
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: decided to underneath another name to see how well it
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: would sell. Yeah, and those books also did really well
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: until somebody figured out that Richard Bachman was Stephen King.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Running Man is a Richard Backman story. And so I
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: think it's a Long Walk, which is another movie that
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: came out if you're not familiar, The Running Man is
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: just a mirror to America right now. It is people
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: who are living in poverty who are struggling to make
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: ends meet get on game shows to try to win
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: money to get them out of poverty, things like, you know,
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: to pay for general healthcare and stuff like that, while
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: the rich live extravagant lifestyles and just treat people who
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: don't have money as pawns and lesser than And it's
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: an action movie and the cast is incredible with this.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Glenn Powell is Ben Richards, He's the main character. He
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: is the running man. It was directed by Edgar Wright.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: So if you like it's got that kind of like
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: snazzy yeah, great director, like super sarcastic, snazzy, like really
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: great shots, beautifully shot. Yeah, but there's a couple other
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: folks in this movie that are like pretty incredible. So
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: Lee pay is in it. Sean Hayes plays a guy
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: named who plays a game show host called Gary Greenback's
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: incredible good good dude, so good. Josh Brolin is in it.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: He's and he's like one of the record the executives.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: You've got Coleman Domingo who is like the main host
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: of the show. And it's just really it's just done.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: So oh yeah, I mean, you've got you've got so
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: many folks in it that are really great, and you'll
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: see a lot of folks in it. You're like, I
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: know who that is. I know who that is. I
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: know who that is. It's just so much fun and
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: just done so well. Michael Sarah's in it. Michael Sarah's
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: like a revolutionary in it, which is really great, and
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: just there's a lot of really fun little bits of
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: humor in it that like I was cracking up the
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: entire time, but also like, oh, this is a little
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: bit too close to home. So if you gotta just
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: see it. It's really fun. It's a really great It's
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: like you can go in with little expectations and really
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: enjoy it. I think it's I think it's a good
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: it's a good watch.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: And this one's in theaters right now.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: This one's in theaters right now.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just can't all right, cool, all right, So
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: that's hens the card Game and running May on the
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: recent movie Dystopian I guess sort of yes, satire type movie,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: which is fantastic. Yeah, and the.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Distant Future of twenty twenty six, it feels.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Like Ken come soon enough? All right, Cool? I think
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: that's what we have to say about those things and
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: terms and disabilities. If you would like to tell us
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: your thoughts on these, you can email us directly info
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. You can also reach us on
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: the social media platforms. And if you have really nice
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: things to say, you can leave in the comments. But
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: if you have some critical things to say, then like
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: email us talk to us about them. We're happy for
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: constructive criticism. Yeah, and if you're just aterd then I'll
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: ignore you. That's fine, that's true. Yeah, I think that's
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: all we have. So I'll go ahead and end this
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: one here. This is Abraham and is a Shane. We're out. So, Yeah,
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: you've been listening to Why we Do what we do.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: going to w w D w w D podcast dot com.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening and we hope you have an awesome
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: day