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How the Love of God Can Change How You Live · Red Couch Theology

0:00
Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
0:03
Theology podcast. Hey, this week we get to hear
0:06
the rest of Alex's sermon from Sunday 'cause he only preached
0:09
for 17 minutes. So he gives us some more Nuggets
0:12
that he had to pass for over and he actually dives into a little
0:16
bit of the details that he was longing for us as a church that
0:19
he kind of had to move quickly through.
0:21
We're also going to be asking the question, why should we long
0:26
to know the giver of salvation as much or more than salvation
0:31
itself? What's up with that?
0:33
Why do we need to focus our attention there?
0:34
And finally, we talk about how the love of God has the power to
0:40
change your life forever. And how do we make sure we're
0:45
keeping ourselves in that love of God because it's so powerful
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and so transformative and we don't want it to become stale in
0:53
our souls. Let's dive into this week's
0:56
episode. Yeah.
0:58
We're live. Welcome to the Red Couch
1:00
Theology podcast where you find out that Alex almost was in a
1:03
movie. That's such an exaggeration.
1:07
So here's what it was weird way to open the podcast as it was.
1:11
It is a good way. And actually like again, like
1:16
nothing like, you know, actually happened in there.
1:18
I, there was a movie shooting in town in Denver that was looking
1:25
for extras and then specifically looking for some roles with a
1:31
couple of lines that could do like accents.
1:37
And I'm like, you know what accent I can do?
1:41
I can do the cognitive accent. So anyway, this was back in
1:48
actually back in July, and it was all set to like write, like
1:52
at least give me an extra. It was an indie film because as
1:55
you may know, you can't be in a real Hollywood movie without
1:58
having like a WGA, like Jews paid and stuff like that.
2:04
You can't like an indie film can become big, but they go nuts if
2:08
they give speaking parts to people that haven't put in their
2:11
hours as like, you know, silent characters and all those sorts
2:14
of things. All like all like graduated to
2:17
you. But I was like, oh, I'm doing it
2:20
like, and they were offering like, you know, 50 bucks a day
2:23
or something ridiculous. If you were an extra, it was
2:26
probably a bit more than that, but that then they actually were
2:28
paying better if you were the the speaking role.
2:31
And so I was all set to go and then I was going on vacation
2:37
like the day they were filming. I think the last day of filming
2:42
was the day we left. And I was like, this is just
2:45
absurd. And we're not going to be able
2:47
to, like, go and say, hey, you know, I really want to do this
2:50
fun part in this junkie Indian indie movie, but I also need a
2:56
day off, so. When you're asking for vacation
3:03
days for a role that you don't even have yet, it's probably not
3:06
a good sign. They're like this is not
3:07
working. I get my.
3:08
Birthday off, that's just my check, like do you guys give you
3:12
know? They're like, we're paying you
3:13
$100 for a week. And the dental and the medical
3:17
is like. Wow.
3:20
So I knew it was just as fun I do.
3:21
But all right, yeah, well, I'm going to do something slightly
3:24
different here to kick off our episode and tell people what
3:29
we're going to talk about Now. What do you think about that?
3:32
At. Least what I think we're going
3:35
to we're where we're going to start.
3:36
One, we're I'm going to ask you to finish your sermon because
3:40
Alex preached for 17 minutes on Sunday.
3:44
That's got to be a S Fellowship Church record.
3:47
It's a sign of extreme holiness and faith in the in the glory
3:51
and majesty of God in the Holy Spirit.
3:53
You know, I, I don't think he's a listener to the podcast, but
3:56
you know who always used to give a, a good like review of short
4:02
sermons? Mike Costas.
4:05
Yeah, he likes short. No, no, he doesn't.
4:07
Oh yeah, yeah. That's right, he's like, where's
4:09
the rest of my? Sermon, you owe us today like,
4:12
you know, like was she you? Know so the plan is to to let
4:16
Alex actually share a couple of the things that he had to cut in
4:19
order to because I took extra time in worship and then we
4:23
honored his family for being at South for five years and that
4:26
took a little extra time and then some transition stuff took
4:31
some extra time the passage like there was just a bunch of things
4:34
that took all said and done and he really wanted us to do the
4:37
closing song So he went 17 minutes for y'all what a.
4:41
Kind we still ran over by like 5 minutes or.
4:45
So, no, all right. So, so first agenda is to just
4:49
get a little bit of the Nuggets that he had to cut.
4:51
The second one is a theological question I have here, which is
4:57
why isn't the gift enough? So in order for this question to
5:02
make sense, you're going to have to give us a little bit of a
5:04
review of the message because you talked about the gift versus
5:06
the giver. Why do we need a gift more than
5:11
the gift or the assurance of salvation?
5:13
Like, isn't salvation sufficient?
5:16
Why do we need to worry about the giver when the gift of
5:18
salvation should be all so interested?
5:21
My guess is I don't have any of the keynote stuff on here.
5:24
Perfect. No pressure.
5:26
You work on that. And I'm going to tell them what
5:27
else we're going to, although I'm going to give all sorts of
5:29
promises that you can't fulfill. All right, So and then the last
5:33
question is, what are the everyday implications of being
5:37
so loved by God that he sent his Son?
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And how might this shape our response to God when we fail and
5:46
have doubts? So in other words, like, OK,
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cool, you said Sunday God loves us and you tried to convince us
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of that in a couple different ways.
5:54
Like why does that? Is that transformative or is it
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just meant to feel help us feel gooey inside.
6:01
So those are some of the topics we're going to be covering today
6:04
on the show. I'm trying this thing where we
6:07
tell you up front so that we don't ramble for 20 minutes.
6:11
You. Don't think we should ramble.
6:13
We already rambled. We started the show with you
6:17
going on a movie set, so we rambled plenty.
6:21
In fact, most of our listeners are listeners are probably all
6:25
along gone because of that. You know, people didn't want to
6:28
hear about my acting. Career.
6:35
All right, so could you start by some of the things that you had
6:42
to cut on Sunday? So I, I want like I had wanted
6:46
to talk a little bit about what you do with familiarity because
6:55
this is the most familiar power passage of all the passages.
6:59
So got to. Love the world that he gave his
7:01
one and only son. Yeah, Yep.
7:02
So, so like the the weird thing about familiarity is it can
7:08
destroy some of the most beautiful things.
7:13
You end up focused on things that that are like front and
7:22
center and miss things that are beautiful and present and
7:25
familiar just be just because we're busy people.
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I would guess that there's a great little image that I saw
7:32
not long ago of like the reason that kids are happier than
7:36
adults. And there was a dad and his son
7:40
sat on the bench and his dad has like a thought bubble with all
7:44
of the different things that are bugging him, like work and money
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and all these different things. And then the kid has a thought
7:52
bubble and the thought bubble is him and his dad on a bench.
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And I was like, that's just brilliant.
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Like the the thing that he's occupying his the kid is is
8:08
what's going on is his dad and the bench and him together,
8:13
whereas the dad is present in all sorts of places.
8:17
So just in life, we tend to like struggle to be present in the
8:20
spaces that we're in and to value the things that we have.
8:23
Like marriages end because we get familiar with each other.
8:26
We end up forgetting like the beautiful gift of.
8:29
So they all somebody loves. You and you love them and, and,
8:32
and so and, and you. And that's where you hear all
8:35
these stories of, like, people that tried to find something new
8:38
because they're like, this thing's missing the spark and
8:40
actually found, like, just loneliness, like just emptiness.
8:45
Yeah. The familiarity breeds contempt.
8:48
That's the. Dallas Willard quote so so as
8:50
well. So the original quote, the the
8:52
proverbial quote is familiarity breeds contempt, Dallas Willard
8:57
said. Familiarity breeds
8:59
unfamiliarity, so the more you're around it, the less
9:03
familiar you actually become with it.
9:05
And so so. So in the context of your
9:08
sermon, we're talking about John 316.
9:10
Yeah. As opposed to so familiar you
9:12
see it on people's faces at football games.
9:15
You do. Absolutely.
9:16
Yeah, it's so familiar that like the weight of like, the God of
9:19
the universe, the creator of heaven and earth loves you.
9:22
Yeah. And you're like, Yep.
9:23
Cool. Got it.
9:24
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
9:25
So, so it's, it's, it's so, so his thesis was like, the more
9:28
you say something, the less it becomes, the more it becomes
9:30
abstract. It gets lost in some kind of
9:33
like, so you can say umbrella 20 times and the first time you say
9:38
it, you picture an umbrella and you probably picture a context
9:41
with you in rain. In the 20th time you say it,
9:44
you're actually have lost any sense of like this is a thing.
9:49
You're actually more, this is a weird word that I'm just, you
9:51
know, it's almost disappeared from your front and centre
9:57
imagination. So I do think that was a thing
10:01
that I wanted to get to with John 316 like this invite to
10:05
refocus on it, to be present in it and to experience it again.
10:10
No time for that really. Just you.
10:13
Just. Like mentioned it.
10:14
Passing and then. Flew through.
10:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and so, so, so that was
10:19
a piece that I, I felt like I skipped in general.
10:22
I think I just moved very quickly.
10:25
There was no time for repetition, no time for.
10:29
I think sometimes you'll say something in a ceremony, like I
10:32
need to say that again. Yeah, in a slightly different
10:34
way. Like I'm going to like every.
10:35
Time I say everything that's why my sermons are so like they they
10:38
are not tracking with the way I planned on saying it's awesome
10:41
so. I'm going to.
10:43
I mean, they're going to repeat it so they have time to sit with
10:47
it or I'm going to. Illustrate or illustrate?
10:52
It or I'm going to say it a different way, like there's just
10:55
certain times you like have lost the certain the right side of
10:58
the room. We're all asleep right now and
11:02
so I didn't have time for any of that that.
11:04
Right side of the room. Always stage right?
11:08
So this. Just reminds me of the whole
11:10
life of me or anything. Reminds me of a Bluey episode.
11:12
Oh. Yeah, so anytime you got a blue
11:15
bluey. Episode This is episode.
11:18
Evidently it's season 3 episode 5, Born the born again one.
11:22
Got it or born yesterday episode.
11:25
Such. A great episode.
11:26
And here's the premise of this particular episode is Bluey and
11:33
and Bingo asked their dad if he can pretend like he was born
11:37
yesterday because he uses this phrase and he's like, I'm not I
11:41
wasn't born yesterday kids. And they're like, oh, that's a
11:43
fun game. Can you pretend like you were?
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And then the whole episode he does and he'd like just leans
11:49
into it full on. And he's like, in this episode,
11:52
if you look on this, if you're watching, you could see him like
11:54
looking at a leaf. And he's just like, overwhelmed
11:58
by the beauty of a leaf. Look at this is amazing we.
12:01
Like the sky and the clouds and food and everything.
12:05
Like he just pretends like everything is new.
12:08
So there you go. Yeah.
12:09
Magical. Pretty cool but but.
12:10
That, yeah, that that in practice is hard to do.
12:13
You get into this habit, especially if you're you're
12:16
right now in that phase of like young kids or something like
12:19
that. It's someone once said that just
12:23
go fast but the days go the the days are long.
12:27
Yeah. So, so if you're stuck in that,
12:30
like, I've just got another thing to do.
12:32
I've got another thing on the list.
12:33
I've got another thing on the list.
12:35
Like, you know, I, I, I got into bed the other day and I said to
12:39
Laura, like, well, another day. And she's like, yeah, I wonder
12:42
how you ever live a life that doesn't, like, be just another
12:47
day. And of course, like, I went to
12:50
work. I love my job.
12:52
I love the people I work with. I love my family, love my kids.
12:56
But still, like, we got up in the morning.
12:59
We all dashed off at different points.
13:01
Like we're literally rushing out the door in multiple sets of
13:04
people. Laura takes the older kids, and
13:07
she works at that school, and I take Leo and I take him to
13:09
preschool. And so you're just literally
13:11
like, OK, split. And then you get back and you're
13:15
weary. You put the younger kids to bed.
13:18
You maybe hang out with the older kids for a bit, and then
13:21
you all go to bed. I mean, I think last last night
13:23
we got our oldest kids to bed like 10:30.
13:26
Yeah, so it just, it just like life can be like that, so.
13:31
Then OK, so. So so how do?
13:33
You can can combat that that. Which is a great question, like,
13:37
and I don't know that there's easy answers beyond space for
13:42
contemplation and gratitude like So I think, I think those are
13:46
two things that the church has valued all the way up until
13:51
probably the 9th, 20th century. And even in the middle of the
13:59
20th century, if you look at the slow pace people lived life at
14:03
compared to today, it's a different world.
14:07
Like, I mean, extracurricular activities in the middle of the
14:11
2020 20th century actually go to the 80s for me.
14:16
I, I was on a soccer team for a while where I practiced once a
14:20
week and played a game once a week for three months of the
14:25
year. And now you get to today where
14:27
like practice every day. When I coached soccer, it was a
14:30
five day a week thing and then it was a six day a week thing
14:35
when we were in the playoffs. So we would just go, go, go.
14:38
We're sneaking in extra practices wherever we could.
14:42
So even go back 40 years, 30 years.
14:45
It's just, it's just a slower way of being.
14:49
So maybe this is one of the powerful parts of spiritual
14:52
practices is spiritual practices are a tool to that help you kind
14:57
of actually appreciate the gifts of God totally.
15:02
Because. Like, God's like lavishing you
15:05
with good and beautiful moments. And we're so distracted and
15:09
familiar that we don't even enjoy the gift of God.
15:14
So. That that and that's why
15:15
spiritual disciplines are broadly active or passive, like
15:19
the some that help you to talk about that.
15:21
Well, there's some spiritual disciplines that actually help
15:23
you to do stuff. They actually are training your
15:26
body to become more like Jesus. And then there's some that are
15:31
passive, and those ones are designed to stop you relying on
15:36
all of the things that you rely on to convince yourself that
15:40
you're happy. So when you give away money, you
15:43
remind yourself that building wealth isn't primarily a
15:47
wonderful spiritual activity. Like giving it away is actually
15:51
like, so you're not I I was joking with someone.
15:53
It's a joke I've made before. So some of you be like this.
15:55
That's just an old joke. But I was chatting to a friend
15:59
yesterday. He was thinking about doing
16:01
something like like financially. I said, you know, I think, you
16:06
know, I've always wanted to start ATV show that is, instead
16:10
of Keeping Up with the Kardashians is staying back with
16:13
the Waltons like. I'd watch that show just.
16:18
Like we're just like, yeah, we're not going to do that
16:21
staying. Back with the walls.
16:23
Because, you know, we've never been particularly fussed about
16:27
like all of the sense that we've got to do this, we've got to do
16:30
this. And I don't know that we're
16:31
richer for it. Like I don't know that.
16:34
Yeah. Yeah, we've broadly told the
16:36
kids if you want to do an activity one at a time and we'd
16:40
rather you did it together. So in the spring they're all
16:43
doing horse riding except Leah. So so they'll all be doing a
16:47
three hour activity together where they all go off and
16:52
they're doing the same thing. And we're like, we would rather
16:54
do that than chase you like from one activity to another.
17:00
So I think one, there's nothing wrong with that if that's what
17:04
your family does. It's just something to be aware
17:07
of that it may give you a sense of rushing everywhere.
17:13
And two, you might be chasing a dream that even when you get on
17:18
the verge of it, maybe a dream that you don't actually actually
17:25
want your kids to leave. Like, like, I actually heard
17:27
Ben, Ben Affleck talk about this.
17:29
The actor, he said, like, I really don't understand people's
17:34
desire to be rich and famous. He said I could actually get on
17:38
board with them wanting to be rich.
17:41
That gives you some ability to do things, both good and
17:45
personal dreams. But he said everyone I know who
17:49
wants to be famous doesn't know anyone who's been famous because
17:55
the cost of being famous is huge.
17:58
So if the dream is I want my kids one day to be somebody
18:00
everybody knows because of their incredible ability, man, like
18:05
spend the day knowing, like with everyone knowing you and what
18:10
you do. Like even pastoring is a little
18:12
window into that. Like little things that you do.
18:16
Like I have pastor friends that have had people critique them
18:18
for like the clothes they wear and the cars they drive and
18:22
everyone you're always on view in some ways to a small
18:25
community. Imagine that times by whatever.
18:28
So, so, so passive activities remind us, maybe you don't
18:32
actually need the things that you think you do and you
18:34
actually get to step back a little bit.
18:36
You get to do nothing so that nothing can be filled with some.
18:39
Silence is a passive activity. It actually removes distraction
18:45
so that maybe God can speak and. So it turns the volume down of
18:49
the absolutely of the normal, so that the soul, the volume of the
18:55
blessings and presence of God can be turned.
18:57
Absolutely. So, so those there's one,
18:59
there's one writer that that claimed pretty strongly, and I
19:02
would tend to agree with this. If you want to experience God in
19:07
a way that is extraordinary you that there's two ways and one is
19:15
suffering and one is contemplation like 1 is silence
19:20
like contemplative activities. So so if you are suffering
19:25
almost is a like a cheat code to experience in God's presence in
19:30
dramatic ways get. Yourself some stuff, right?
19:32
But it comes at the incredible cost of, of whatever you lose
19:35
and, and, and the pain of, of losing that.
19:37
Yeah, you know, I, I heard someone talking about losing a
19:43
child the other day and just the, the like, the sudden waking
19:46
and angst and anger and, and yet.
19:50
But God's present in it in a surprising way.
19:53
Yeah. And so none of us would wish
19:56
that on ourselves or our friends.
19:59
And so contemplation is the long way.
20:03
But but it usually takes a serious commitment.
20:08
And no, I won't God nothing else.
20:11
And so you find times to experience that.
20:13
So there you go. I think, I think somewhere for
20:15
me the invite was supposed to be to what does it look like to re
20:21
embrace this in new ways. Yeah.
20:25
Yes, to to cast a vision for like, OK, God loves you, but how
20:30
he how do we actually start to actually feel that again in a
20:33
fresh way? Yeah, so.
20:34
I I was, I did a benediction at the end of this week that to me
20:37
was an intriguing passage to put side by side with this because
20:41
you've got John 316 for God so loved the world.
20:43
Yeah. And then I read Ephesians 3, one
20:47
of Paul's letters as a benediction.
20:49
Yeah. And in that one, he says, I pray
20:53
that you would have the power to understand the love of God.
20:59
It's one of my favorite classes. It's one of mine, like every
21:02
time I read it, I'm like, it's brilliant.
21:03
But but I'm always intrigued by what he means about by power,
21:07
like because, because on one hand, like power is like I think
21:11
is it? Is it it's it's Dino.
21:14
Something in in Greek Dunamos. Yeah, Dunamos, Dunamos Dynamos.
21:19
Yeah, something like that. Look at us with our our pseudo
21:25
Greek. Yeah.
21:30
So we've got. Where does it start?
21:32
17 Prayer for. Sessions, let me dwell in your
21:36
heart's faith. Power.
21:38
So it's yeah. Dunami.
21:39
Yeah, yeah. So, so it like on one hand that
21:43
that can be physical strength and on one hand it can be
21:46
spiritual strength. So, so I, I always wonder like
21:50
is, is he praying that God would just give you that power or that
21:54
God would give you the strength to spend the time of
21:58
contemplation of like, you know, it's.
22:00
Probably all of the above, right?
22:01
It's like. But I think the part of the
22:03
reason the text is so beautiful to me is that he has to pray
22:07
this prayer. Like, he's like, you're
22:08
literally not qualified to absorb this love.
22:11
Yeah. Like, and then he gets to the
22:13
end, he says, even though it's so great you can never really
22:15
understand. Yeah, he's like I'm.
22:18
Going to pray this majestic prayer so that you can have even
22:21
a chance of scratching the surface of the wall of love that
22:25
is coming. But then I.
22:26
Also always feel like the next part really is illuminative as
22:30
well, because you've got all this part where Paul says, like,
22:33
I pray that you would understand the love of God, the height, the
22:35
depth, the width, you know, even though it's so great that you
22:39
can never really understand it. And then he says, and now to him
22:43
who is able to do immeasurably more than we would ask or think
22:48
like so even when we've asked to experience the God, the love of
22:51
God, God is able to give us experiences of it in ways beyond
22:55
our imagination. And, and so I think the most
22:59
rounded people that you meet are about people that have sat in
23:04
that space of what God's love means and as A and have allowed
23:10
it to heal. Every space in which they have
23:15
felt unloved, uncertain of themselves, lacked value, all of
23:21
those different things. Somewhere in in the middle of
23:23
that, yeah, we're invited to experience the love of God that
23:27
is beyond any of those things. So I feel like in in one sense,
23:30
we're starting to answer the first question, which was, which
23:34
was this. And maybe remind us why this the
23:38
questions phrased this way because you use some language in
23:41
the sermon that that informs why this question was written this
23:44
way. Why isn't the gift enough?
23:48
Why do we need, or should we want more than assurance of
23:52
salvation? Well, well, I, I think for the
23:56
same reason that in everyday life, actually often who gave a
24:02
gift is more central to its value than the gift itself.
24:06
Like I can remember some extraordinary gifts I've got
24:09
from people and those people have become forgotten in my
24:12
life. Like people that have given me
24:14
wonderful things and I don't speak to them anymore.
24:17
I don't, you know, and, and for, for, for, for the reason that in
24:24
my eyes, the gift was valuable, but the person was only valuable
24:28
because of how they were tied to the gift.
24:31
And as that gift like disappeared in my eyes.
24:34
Someone gave me a car when I was about 18.
24:39
They just a good one, yeah. They just and it wasn't an
24:41
amazing car, but I didn't have one and they said we were going
24:44
to sell this car for probably a couple of $1000 in today's
24:47
money. And you know, they said, but if,
24:50
if it was for you, we, we would just give it you.
24:52
They were friends of my parents and but Bola and Taiwo Ola.
24:57
Wow, Yeah, that's a great family.
24:59
From Nigeria. And so they gave me this car and
25:02
and yeah, I was, I was just staggered, signed the papers
25:05
with them was very thankful. And then I don't think I ever
25:09
spoke to them again after that. But but the car was valuable.
25:14
And then the car broke down and you know, it got scrapped and I
25:19
got a few dollars for it. And the relationship between me
25:23
didn't change because the value was in the gift.
25:24
I think this is this is what, what I'm where, where I'm trying
25:27
to piece this together. And then there's other gifts
25:31
I've had that are super important to me regardless of
25:36
their monetary value or not because of who gave them to me.
25:40
I've got sitting on the shelf next to where I read like read
25:44
my Bible and other books in our one of our living areas.
25:48
It's this little metal turtle. It's just, you know, it's got a
25:53
head that just bobs like and you can move its feet and it just
25:56
sits. But it just sits there if you
25:58
push it like kind of Bob around. It's probably made 100 years ago
26:02
or something, but it was my grandma's, and she gave it to me
26:08
not long before she passed away. And that thing I would be
26:13
heartbroken to lose. Now, if I, if I outside of my
26:16
grandma had a, if I'd have walked past past that in a, you
26:22
know, a rummage sale like we had at church, I would probably
26:24
never have picked it out. Yeah.
26:27
But because it's tied to her, it means a lot now.
26:31
Now I think you can have a gift that's extraordinarily valuable,
26:36
like. Salvation.
26:40
And then you can have a person who's extraordinarily valuable
26:43
because of their love for you, their care for you.
26:47
And that's a wonderful thing too.
26:48
And then you couple the two together.
26:51
And I think in this instance, we have both a gift that's
26:54
wonderful and distinct and valuable and the gift of knowing
26:58
the giver. That's that's to me, the
27:01
extraordinary addition that Paul sketches out when he says no,
27:04
you weren't just given a gift, you were adopted, isn't it?
27:08
Like you're. Welcomed into a family.
27:10
So. So, like, gifts are fine, but
27:12
the gift of A to to be welcomed into something, to belong to
27:16
something that's that's, that's extraordinary.
27:19
Yeah. And.
27:20
Actually, like theologically, if you think about it, you can
27:24
actually the main thing you are saved into, you're you're saved
27:34
from. Yeah, a separation from the
27:38
giver and you're saved into deeper intimate relationship
27:45
with the giver. So that is salvation.
27:47
It's not like I think that this is one of the brokennesses of,
27:52
of becoming overly obsessed with heaven and hell as locations and
27:58
as experiences. Yeah, Yeah.
28:00
Yeah. Sure.
28:03
Not because they're they're not things, but because it distracts
28:08
us from what we're actually saved.
28:11
Like the reason hell is the worst is because Jesus is not
28:16
there. Yeah.
28:17
And then the reason. And yeah, we could get into some
28:20
deeper theological things about it, yeah.
28:22
Picture a salvation which looked something like this.
28:27
OK, you're fine, but I want nothing to do with you.
28:30
Yeah. Like now you have a mansion and
28:32
you're going to be safe for all of eternity.
28:34
That's. Why true reconciliation stories
28:36
are extraordinary because they remind us of God's work for us.
28:41
That's why the prodigal son story is so valuable, because
28:44
it's not. Yeah, I'm going to provide for
28:47
you. You get to be a servant again.
28:49
It's find him a ring. Get him, get him a, get him a, a
28:53
cloak. And let's celebrate together.
28:57
Yeah. And if you, yeah, I've heard
28:59
people say things about heaven and hell where like, well, if
29:04
heaven is like this place where you're like playing a harp in
29:07
the clouds, I'd rather go to hell because it's like this
29:10
ruckus dark club party down there, right?
29:14
It's an impression. It's this impression that like
29:18
maybe media and Hollywood and Dante's Inferno and all this
29:22
conglomeration of, of other things have given us the
29:25
impression that hell, is this like insane, like dark party,
29:31
but at least it's a party. The.
29:33
The the most hilarious view I've ever seen is on The Simpsons
29:37
where like Homer is in hell in some vision and is being
29:41
tortured by having to eat all the doughnuts and he just eats
29:46
hell out of doughnuts and he's just so happy and his demon
29:50
that's like have another doughnut.
29:51
He's like, wait, what? But that's like the that you're
29:56
right. That's the weird twist that we
29:58
have. So so in actual fact, the most
30:00
correct view seems to be eternity with the source of
30:04
light. And the other option is
30:10
eternity, at least in one view outside of the presence of the
30:16
one who is behind all light like so if if light is God's gift to
30:23
the world, both spiritually and physically, then one is outside
30:30
of weather is darkness and gnashing of teeth.
30:35
And this whole like books written on what gnashing of
30:38
teeth actually means. But but it is the, IT is
30:43
primarily, it seems, the distress of being in the place
30:47
of darkness. Yeah, so, so like, and and we
30:49
see that all the time. Like, you know, my, my kids had
30:51
this conversation with me all the time about their
30:53
relationship with the dark. Yeah.
30:55
Jude, who's very exact on what he wants, you know, that's part
30:59
of his gift, will say to me if I shut the door so that the room's
31:04
dark so we can go to sleep, he'll always say to make sure
31:06
you open the door when you leave.
31:08
I don't want it to be dark. I'm OK with you here in the dark
31:12
with me. But I want the door open so if I
31:16
wake up it's not dark. Yeah.
31:19
So like, he's got this very, very.
31:21
Specific. Yeah, and and and so, so you see
31:24
with him like, well, what comforts him light and presence
31:28
he wants and. Presence is more important than
31:30
light, yeah. Darkness is fine if if God is
31:32
present, but when God is the the you know, like I I don't know if
31:36
I I think I had to skip it. I had the James.
31:38
Did I read the James one passage?
31:40
I can't remember. I think I just rushed over, I
31:42
think. You did rush over it.
31:44
But but that that passage is another one that ties into like,
31:47
you know, the father of lights from whom all good gifts come.
31:52
Yeah. So like when?
31:53
I was when I was younger, I was a kid, you know, follower of, of
31:57
Jesus or, you know, prayed this in a prayer or whatever.
32:00
But when I thought about heaven, I was like, well, heaven's going
32:02
to be cool because it's going to be mansions and I'll get
32:04
basically all the stuff I want. But as you age and you get some
32:09
of the stuff and you realize that stuff is empty and no
32:12
longer gives happy because familiarity brings breeds
32:15
unfamiliarity and all these things, right?
32:17
All the things we talked about the beginning of the episode.
32:19
Then you start to say, well, there's got to be more than just
32:22
the stuff. The stuff is a means to an end.
32:26
It isn't an end in itself. When you're a kid, sometimes you
32:29
think the stuff is an end in and of itself because getting a new
32:32
thing like I used to be, I used to be like a tech junkie and I
32:36
would just get so excited about getting the next phone or
32:39
getting the next computer, no. You just got one.
32:41
You don't even care. I don't care like I care that
32:45
the battery doesn't die on me. My most favorite feature of my
32:50
new phone is that the battery lasts long.
32:53
And I'm a big tech nerd and I don't care.
32:57
But what heaven is more than a mansion or a dirt bike or
33:03
whatever that I wanted when I was a kid is, is the good stuff
33:08
of life, which is deep, meaningful relationship with
33:12
others and with the living God. And then it means like, OK,
33:17
maybe there's a mansion, but the mansion's useless without the
33:22
people in the mansion. I think a lot of people tend to
33:25
think Mansion is a it's an OK translation, but what actually
33:32
the the implication is is so so the story around the Jewish
33:42
world is that when a son took a bride and now you know the
33:47
story, but for the sake of maybe you don't and you're listening.
33:50
When a son of a father took a bride or became betrothed, he
33:55
would say to his betrothed, I'm going to go away for a while.
33:58
I'm going to prepare a house for you.
34:00
Yeah. And he would go back to his
34:01
father's house and he would build an.
34:03
Addition an. Addition And then he would come
34:07
back and he would take her, and he would welcome into the new
34:10
home, which was part of his father's home.
34:12
Now one day his father would die and he'd inherit the home.
34:15
Yeah. But this is what Jesus is
34:20
talking about in my Father's house.
34:23
There are many extensions. There are many dwelling places
34:27
to live. And if it were not so I would
34:31
have told you, but I go to prepare a place for you.
34:34
When I come back, I would take you to myself.
34:37
I mean, this is bride and groom language.
34:39
So like the invitation is, is unity with, with a, with a
34:47
family. So let me give you a little, a
34:49
little story that I think explains on a tiny level what
34:53
this feeling is like. Every year I go with my family
34:58
to the beach. Like we all live in different
35:01
places, all have our own homes, but every year we go and we live
35:06
together in this place. You know, we, we rekindle old
35:11
relationships, we do things, we watch movies late into the
35:16
night, play games, all because we don't have to dash off to put
35:19
our kids to bed somewhere else. Everyone is in the same kind of
35:23
places. We sit watching the ocean, the
35:26
sunset, because it sets at like 10:30 at that time of year.
35:29
So we watch. Great.
35:30
Meals we eat. Together, we drink wine
35:32
together, we laugh together a lot.
35:36
And every time I'm there, about two days in, I'll tell myself,
35:42
still got five days left, still got five days left.
35:46
And then the next I'll be like, OK, still four days left.
35:48
There's still four days left, three days left, still two days
35:52
left. There's still everything in me
35:54
is trying to extend this for as long as I can in my brain
35:58
because I have no desire for it to end.
36:01
If you said to me, do you want another week?
36:03
Done taking it. Yep, if I knew.
36:06
Everything at home was covered and the expense was covered
36:10
instantaneous. Yes, and.
36:12
If someone said to me after that, do you want another, I'd
36:14
probably say yes. Now, of course, there's all
36:17
sorts of humanity dynamics that are in play right now that
36:20
eventually I might get to a point where I'm like, OK, I'm
36:22
ready to like. Familiarity brings up breeds
36:25
unfamiliarity, but. It's just a little picture of
36:28
what it is when you combine the people you love with places you
36:32
love, all of which are gifts from the Father of heavenly
36:36
lights. Yeah, who only gives gives good
36:40
gifts. So.
36:40
The thing that you may have experienced all the time here,
36:43
which is an epic sunset, yeah, is nowhere nearly as sweet.
36:47
And because you're rushed past it, potentially you're There you
36:52
sit with a people you love, and you actually linger long enough
36:56
to admire it. You say it out loud to your mom
37:00
or dad or whatever and they say, isn't this amazing?
37:03
What a gift and. That's why actually people one
37:06
people talk about beauty as having a tinge of sadness to it
37:10
because it fades. You see a beautiful woman, they
37:14
start to get old. A good looking guy starts to get
37:18
old. You see a landscape that that
37:20
diminishes. You see a sunset that
37:23
disappears. There's a tweak of sadness in
37:26
your heart because of its lack of permanence because it can't
37:29
fully be grasped. So somewhere there's this idea
37:32
that that permanence becomes true permanence.
37:35
And then there's this idea that CS Lewis in In the Screw Tape
37:39
Letters talks about different levels of of jokes or humor.
37:44
And. Everything down from like, the
37:46
the body humor that isn't really clever.
37:48
That is just like an excuse to joke about sex.
37:51
It's crass. Yeah.
37:52
And then all the way through these different levels, like the
37:55
joke proper, he calls it. That actually takes some work,
37:58
and he's actually hard to create.
38:00
And then at the highest end, he talks about joy.
38:03
And he says joy is what it is to see couples that have known each
38:07
other a long time at the start of a vacation.
38:10
They get together and there is the.
38:12
Joy of seeing Dan Elliott talk about his wife, yeah.
38:16
It is, yeah. It's like.
38:17
And in those cases, there is no actual excuses needed for
38:22
laughter. Yeah.
38:24
Just the, the, the experience itself, anything can produce
38:28
laughter. Yeah, because it's people that
38:30
love each other that are starting a journey together.
38:33
So like, like again, those are little elements that we get to
38:36
see, little glimpses of how God paints eternity.
38:39
Yeah. It's like a a husband beginning
38:42
a marriage and planning for that and finally being united with
38:45
his bride. It's like couples away
38:47
adventure. It's the families that are now
38:49
split by long distances together in one place at the same time.
38:54
Like those are all little glimpses of like what God has
38:56
planned. That's great.
38:58
Well, that leads us to the the last question that I have here,
39:02
which is what are the everyday implications of being so loved
39:06
by God and we've already started to touch in a lot of this and
39:10
that he sent his son and bore and that were born of the Spirit
39:15
and how might this shape our response to God when we fail or
39:19
have this is. This is actually OK.
39:20
So this is actually perfect because I actually had a whole
39:23
section planned, they're just removed.
39:25
OK. And it was centered around Les
39:30
Miserables, which is OK, A very famous book or a famous book and
39:37
a more famous musical. So it's like in an.
39:41
OK, movie. Yeah, a pretty good movie, yeah.
39:43
No, the, the, the musical version was Yeah, Yeah.
39:46
So the story is that Jean Valjean is a poor man who is
39:51
arrested for stealing a loaf of bread and thrown into jail for
39:55
years for this crime. Yeah, and and in it builds this
40:01
deep resentment to the world because of the unjustice of
40:06
being hungry and taking bread and being punished.
40:09
So he actually comes out saying I've seen, I now see the world.
40:13
Or, the author says of him, Jean Valjean came out seeing the
40:17
world as a enemy that needed to be defeated, seeing him as
40:23
seeing it as like a thing that had to be conquered.
40:27
And so as he's travelling and trying to get his life, you
40:31
know, back on track, get enough to survive, he ends up staying
40:36
with a priest, a Bishop. And the Bishop feeds him and
40:41
cares for him and gives him a place to sleep because he's poor
40:45
and in need. And in the middle of the night,
40:46
he wakes up and he steals most of the silver in the house, puts
40:51
it in a bag and leaves. And then he's halfway, you know,
40:57
half a mile down the road when he's arrested by some gendarmes
41:01
and brought back to the Bishop. And the gendarmes says to him,
41:06
says to the Bishop, see, I caught this man.
41:08
Like, you know, I've saved your silver or actually, no, he
41:12
doesn't mention this. So he says, I've brought him
41:14
back to you. And the Bishop says to the
41:17
gendarmes, thank you for bringing him back to me.
41:20
And then he says to Jean Valjean, why did you rush off so
41:24
quickly? You forgot I gave you the
41:26
candlesticks as well. And all the while, one of the
41:29
brilliant comic moments is that you can see the Bishop's wife,
41:33
who is clearly not super excited about poverty and the way that
41:36
he is kind of like, what are you doing, you idiot?
41:39
Like. All we have is the candlesticks.
41:41
Told you don't give away stuff like don't like, you know, yeah,
41:45
she's super mad that he even welcomed this guy in.
41:48
And the Bishop and I want to talk about it.
41:52
And so the Bishop hands over the candlesticks and the gendarmes
41:55
leave. And then the Bishop says to him,
41:57
I've bought your soul for God. Like now you must, you must
42:02
learn to become a good man. The Bishop acts as almost like a
42:06
picture of what God has done, like he acts as this like.
42:11
So why what this? Example of God And then as as
42:17
Jean Valjean leaves and goes about building this life, he
42:20
carries with him this sense of this action means something.
42:27
The life I live now has to reflect the action.
42:30
Yeah, so I am. No, I'm not living a life in
42:33
jail because of a extreme act of kindness and mercy.
42:38
Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, I have been my my
42:39
forgiveness has been bought by an action that costs something.
42:42
And now I I must go and live a different life like that.
42:46
I I wonder if I may actually have the quotes separately
42:50
because they, they this story just stood out to me as a way of
42:56
re appreciating. How's it going to come up?
42:59
No, I wonder if we're just not. Oh, that's pages.
43:06
Where is pages. Yeah, this is.
43:14
Oh yeah, yeah. Here we go.
43:15
Here's the first quote. During the years of suffering,
43:17
he reached the conclusion that life was war, in which he was
43:20
the one of the one of the defeated.
43:22
Hatred was his only weapon, and he resolved to sharpen it in
43:25
prison and carry it with him wherever he left.
43:28
That was how he would defeat the world that was at war with him.
43:31
And then at the end it was that which was certain, that which he
43:35
did not doubt, that which was no longer, that was that he was no
43:39
longer the same man, that everything about him was
43:43
changed, that it was no longer in his power to make it as
43:46
though the Bishop had not spoken to him and not touched him.
43:52
So like somewhere for us, it seems like with with the Bishop
43:55
playing this role of God to a degree in Les Miserables or a
43:58
picture of what God is like. We actually, and Paul says this
44:02
explicitly, you are no longer your broom.
44:05
You were bought with a price. So our like specific actions are
44:10
reflective of what God has done for us.
44:15
And so now when we end up in places of doubt or difficulty,
44:20
we have a choice. Do I continue to act in the
44:25
belief that God has done something and continue on that
44:29
journey? Or is this now a excuse for me
44:35
to just do whatever I want so even?
44:38
Even the doubt is a denial of the love of God in one sense,
44:45
because like, if I, if I, if I think, oh, I'm no good for
44:48
nothing. Yeah, it's, it's, it's actually
44:53
it, it's actually undermining the gift.
44:55
Well, well, I. I think this and the Giver and
44:57
this is where intellectual doubt versus yeah, yeah, self worth
45:00
doubt obviously operate in different ways.
45:02
Intellectual doubt, I tend to think he's uncontrollable, like,
45:06
and in an intellectual doubt, you can just continue to say,
45:10
I'm going to live my life as though God has done what he once
45:13
believed he had done or often believe in some, you know, you
45:18
know, depending on how that doubt works for you, maybe it's
45:20
a permanent state that you've experienced for years.
45:22
Maybe it's an in and out state. So if you feel like I've been in
45:25
this space of doubt for a year or two and and I'm almost living
45:29
what what I sometimes call like a sociological faith, like I
45:33
still believe the church is good.
45:34
I still believe faith is good. I'm just struggling with it
45:37
intellectually. Then there the invite is to
45:40
continue to live as though what God has done is real.
45:46
And you may struggle into intellectually, but you continue
45:49
to live as though God has done everything he once believed it
45:52
done, if that makes sense. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
45:54
Like, like in that sense, you, you live.
45:57
You live choosing to believe what God did for you in the
46:00
light when you believe that experience you.
46:04
Know I and I I experienced that myself when I went through a
46:08
season of deconstruction, if for lack of a better term, and I
46:12
remember saying to to the spirit specifically like if it's your
46:15
job to keep me in keep me in the faith, then you're going to have
46:20
to do some work because I need to do some exploring of other
46:23
faith traditions and just confirm that my faith is
46:26
grounded. And I actually had that thought
46:28
like does that mean I should just explore every opportunity
46:31
of existence? And I was like, no, because I've
46:37
actually vetted the way of Jesus enough to know that it's a
46:41
better way of living even if I don't believe it in the end.
46:44
So I was like, I'm just gonna stay the course because of how I
46:48
try and show up, like try and be nice, try to continue engage
46:53
relationships, try whatever rather than like go become an
46:57
alcohol or what, I don't know, whatever it may be that I could
47:00
have tried or sleep around or what.
47:03
Who knows that you could try as a hedonistic model.
47:07
And it was, it was some of that where I was like, I I'm actually
47:11
going to go ahead and continue to live.
47:12
It's with it's true because right now the evidence is that
47:15
it is. But I I need for Peace of Mind,
47:19
my mind to be allowed to wander into other faith traditions, to
47:22
reconfirm it and. And this is this, this idea was
47:25
birthed for me by a conversation I had.
47:28
It was an online thing actually, where where someone said I am
47:31
struggling with my spiritual faith right now.
47:35
So I am what I would call a sociological Christian, but the
47:40
reason I'm in church and present is because I want to give my
47:43
kids the best opportunity to be both sociological believers and
47:48
spiritual believers, and I long and hope for the one day where I
47:52
might. Return.
47:53
Return and feel like I belong in that spiritual realm as well.
47:57
So, so this is what it is for a person to go through that
48:00
deconstruction and say if God wants to find me, he will find
48:03
me present in church with all of the people that believe in him,
48:08
which is is is actually a beautiful decision.
48:10
In lots of ways it is. And interestingly, like in my
48:13
story that I just told you, like my conclusion after the season
48:17
of 6-9 months or almost a year of exploration is I just was
48:24
even more confident than ever that the way of Jesus was the
48:27
best way of being human. Yeah.
48:28
So. So I think then on the other
48:30
hand, there's that sense of like lack of self worth that says if
48:35
it's honest and and This is why this type of doubt is something
48:39
to be repented up. I think that language and I have
48:43
had to myself in different seasons of life.
48:45
And I think you have said the same thing.
48:48
That level of doubt says I believe more my feelings about
48:52
myself than I believe what God says about me.
48:56
So it says that my feelings, my sense of God's distance, my
49:00
sense of God's like, like my own failures and my own like that,
49:06
that sense of like, you know, I've shared before that
49:08
beautiful Carolyn Rossetti, Carol Charlotte Rossetti post
49:16
prayer where she says when you find yourself weary of self.
49:20
You. Know and I've I've definitely
49:22
been in that space plenty of times The the worst part of that
49:26
space is you get to a point of saying I believe what I think
49:29
about me over ranks is greater than what God says about me and
49:37
that has to be repented of you have to your feelings may not
49:41
change but I think you actually have to approach that from the
49:43
perspective of what I believe about me is wrong and I repent I
49:48
turn around and choose to believe what you say about me
49:53
Yeah you. You have this sort of cheeky,
49:55
like playful statement that you'll throw into a message
49:59
occasionally where you're like, oh, I know this about me because
50:03
I spent a lot of time with me. It's, it's as bad as you could
50:06
imagine. And you see and, and people
50:08
chuckle, but there's also like this, they chuckle because they
50:14
are familiar with that. Yeah, that's humor.
50:17
Like, humor is when you sort of say something that other people
50:21
feel but don't often acknowledge out loud.
50:23
And so we all kind of chuckle, but then you're like, yeah, no,
50:26
that's actually a feeling that people have.
50:28
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like spending time with me
50:30
is the worst so. That intellectual doubt versus
50:32
that like self worth doubt interesting seem to require
50:36
different pathways and invite us into different spaces.
50:42
All right. Well, as we come to close the
50:44
show, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to is to
50:49
tie all this together in a in A and tie it up with a bow and
50:52
say, what's the bottom line of this of John 316?
50:58
The familiarity breeds unfamiliarity, the gift and the
51:03
giver concept. Why are they both important?
51:06
And this, this, How does the love affect our everyday lives?
51:11
So, so I think, I think the bottom line as I looked at it
51:14
was, was one acknowledging that we have a temptation to over
51:18
focus on the gift and, and was to to make sure you don't miss
51:25
the giver in the gift. So actually some of that is a
51:31
practice of thankfulness, of gratitude of, of acknowledging
51:36
the gift, but but actually acknowledging God.
51:39
You were the one that gave the gift an incredible cost to
51:41
yourself, knowing what it might inhale.
51:45
You chose to make a people and then you chose to redeem that
51:49
people. And I am one of those redeemed.
51:52
And so actually focusing on that journey of thankfulness seems to
51:59
be a key element for that. I think some people do that
52:03
really well. And then there's some songs that
52:05
lead you into that practice and some elements of Scripture.
52:08
That's what Paul seems to do all the time.
52:12
He always seems to stop. Someone said to me once in
52:14
Hebrew, and I don't know Hebrew well enough to know how this
52:17
functions. Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm able to
52:20
work with it like on a, on a root language level.
52:24
But they said in, in Hebrew, God is never the object of a
52:31
sentence. He's always the subject of a
52:33
sentence. God is always first.
52:36
The sentence is always about God and other things come second.
52:43
So it's never like God is the it's never like salvation was
52:51
provided by God. It's always God is the provider
52:55
of salvation. God always comes first in a
52:58
sentence because he's the, the, the thing that the yeah.
53:03
And he's the person that requires actually focus and
53:07
honor and respect. Yeah.
53:09
So, so I have, I think I have experienced the worst seasons of
53:16
my life when I have focused on the gift and what I am doing to
53:26
help people experience that gift.
53:31
Like I have definitely had seasons of life in ministry
53:34
where I have had God say to me, son, you're doing this without
53:38
me right now. Like right now I am, I am just
53:42
the object, not the subject. I am the second thing, not the
53:46
first thing. Like actually, if you want to do
53:48
this thing in a way that's transformative for people, that
53:52
has to come from you and I being closer together than than the
53:57
work of preaching, than the, than the managing of a staff or
54:04
a organization. Like if that, if you want that
54:08
thing to be rich, both for you and for others, it's going to
54:11
require us to be in complete sync with each other.
54:16
And, and I think I've, I've shared before, like the seasons
54:19
that that's been worked through have been sometimes like out on
54:22
a walk where it's just been a picture of, of gardener walking
54:30
together. And I'm a couple of steps ahead.
54:34
I kind of actually slowed down to just, you know, have this
54:38
sense of, no, we're, we're aligned.
54:41
Where we, where would you like us to go next?
54:45
It's been there in seasons of me saying I actually don't know if
54:48
I want to keep doing this after like maybe weeks of preaching in
54:53
a row or just like how, my goodness, why do I do this to
54:56
myself? Yeah, and I've actually those
54:59
been moments where God says like, OK, like, yeah, but you
55:02
feel like that way now because you're muscling through this.
55:05
Yeah, I, I felt compelled last night in the emotionally healthy
55:10
spirituality class to to craft a little sentence.
55:15
Like during the final reflection time, I wrote this little
55:17
sentence that I shared with the class that kind of is, sits in
55:22
all of the same vein because we were talking about David and how
55:26
he has this deep identity in that's like his identity is
55:31
anchored in his relationship with God.
55:34
So I stood up at the end of the class and I just said who who
55:42
you are, when in or when in relationship with God, who you
55:46
are is sufficient. Is is sufficient for the moment
55:51
that you're facing? So and then I just stopped and
55:56
looked around the room and let it be silent for about 30
55:59
seconds. And then I said it again.
56:01
And it's kind of that it's, it's that moment where you see like
56:06
him, he relationship with him makes all the moments bearable.
56:13
It makes many moments more beautiful.
56:16
It's it's the point of it all. So, yeah.
56:20
Interesting. That's beautiful.
56:22
Well, thank you all for tuning in.
56:25
Hopefully you like the new format of us actually know
56:27
knowing what we're going to talk about a little bit Yeah and we
56:32
will see you next week. Well actually yes, we I think we
56:37
might see you next week. We have a guest preacher, an
56:40
amazing preacher for that following week.
56:43
But collaborating and stuff will remotely and we'll see.
56:46
There's a chance we might not, but we.
56:49
Don't know. Bye.