Latest / Smart Business Growth with Nicky Miklós / A Tale of Hustle and Healing with Andy McCarthy

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A Tale of Hustle and Healing with Andy McCarthy · Smart Business Growth with Nicky Miklós

0:04
Nicky: Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with Nicky and Ness.
0:11
Ness: We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of country, the Turrbal and Bunurong people of Brisbane and Melbourne respectively, where Nicky and I both work and live both work and live.
0:32
Ness: We are thrilled to have Andy McCarthy as our first guest of this series of the podcast.
0:34
Ness: He's an entrepreneur, an author, a mentor and a passionate lover of life.
0:36
Ness: After overcoming a deeply troubled childhood, andy moved to the brown coal dominated region of the Latrobe Valley in 2010, and, of all things, decided to start a solar energy business.
0:48
Ness: After overcoming years of resistance, ridicule and self-doubt, andy established Gippsland Solar as one of Australia's largest employers in the renewable energy sector and became known across the globe as the face of energy transition in coal country.
1:03
Ness: In late 2019, gippsland Solar was acquired by RACV.
1:08
Ness: Andy stayed on as CEO and Managing Director of RACV Solar for three years before taking a six-month sabbatical and spending time traveling abroad with his wife, kelly, and three young boys.
1:19
Ness: Andy's now returned to the workforce, where his story of soaring highs and crashing lows has been captured in a highly successful memoir entitled here Comes the Sun.
1:29
Ness: Andy's now a business coach, consultant to government and industry and mentor to founders and startups from across the globe.
1:36
Ness: He sits on a number of boards and advisory groups and is the president of his local football netball club and junior footy and cricket coach in his spare time of his local football netball club and junior footy and cricket coach in his spare time.
1:49
Ness: We talked a lot about what Andy wrote about in his book and I highly recommend you get your hands on a copy of it.
1:52
Ness: I listened to the audio, which is Andy talking at reading the book and Nicky picked up the actual hard copy.
1:57
Ness: So whichever way you prefer to do your reading, we can't recommend highly enough listening to Andy's story.
2:04
Ness: There are so many valuable takeaways and we're really grateful that he gets to share some of those with us today.
2:09
Ness: So, without further ado, let's head over and listen to the full conversation.
2:14
Ness: Andy, when I was reading through your book here Comes the Sun, there were so many times that Nicky's holding it up.
2:22
Ness: For those who aren't looking at the video, I listen to the audio, so I can't hold up my hard copy.
2:29
Ness: But one of the themes that came through quite a lot during the book, through all of your different experiences in growing a business and then, of course, in the acquisition, when you were working around you know, in the corporate space One of the things that stood out to me was we talk in our book Healthy Hustle about entrepreneurial addiction and what we find is there can be such a pull towards being the most important person in the business, having the business be all consuming.
2:57
Ness: You know, some of the key points around entrepreneurial addiction are obsessive thoughts, so where you can't stop thinking about it, that withdrawal when perhaps the project's just been finished or a big sale's gone through.
3:11
Ness: It's almost like that depression or that slip back some self-worth issues around, never really acknowledging success.
3:19
Ness: And I think I remember you saying that was a key thing, that perhaps you just went.
3:22
Ness: What's the next thing?
3:23
Ness: What's the next thing?
3:24
Ness: What's the next thing?
3:25
Ness: An increase in tolerance against, you know, with perhaps the working, the long hours, lack of sleep, all of those kinds of things, neglecting health, neglecting family, and then, you know, continuing to push, even though you are experiencing negative outcome from all of that.
3:42
Ness: So I'm curious to know within that, were you aware, whilst you were experiencing all this, or was it in the reflection of writing the story, writing the book, that it came perhaps more clearer to you about how much that connection through to the business was impacting your life?
4:01
Andy: Well, I think for someone with ADHD or someone that's neurodivergent.
4:06
Andy: I think I have a natural tendency towards obsessive, compulsive kind of behaviors.
4:10
Andy: I get very addicted to something and I go down a rabbit hole and I'm just I will not rest until I've achieved whatever it is I need to achieve and I'm sure a lot of your listeners can relate to that feeling.
4:19
Andy: It's very satisfying, very stimulating at the time, but that feeling of satisfaction it just doesn't last.
4:26
Andy: It's fleeting and it's gone.
4:27
Andy: And the one thing I did realize after we actually sold our business to RACV was that I hadn't really ever experienced any genuine moments of satisfaction over the 13 years Like if you look at the history of Gippsland Solar from the spare garage in our little town called Merbu North in the hills of Gippsland to having two or 300 staff across the country, having acquired other businesses, having toured the world and done a lot of speaking and presentations and things like that I can't think of a time where I felt genuinely satisfied because I was just constantly looking for the next thing and I wasn't even able to reflect and enjoy it that night I was just hustling again.
5:03
Andy: I was back onto it.
5:04
Andy: What's next?
5:05
Andy: There's a few reasons why that's a really bad idea.
5:07
Andy: Firstly, everything else comes second to your pursuit of business success and, like a lot of entrepreneurs, I tried to sell myself some sort of a false dream that I was doing this to provide for my family or some sort of selfless pursuit to support them, which is rubbish.
5:22
Andy: I was doing it because I enjoyed it and it fed my ego at times as well, I think, to be honest.
5:27
Andy: But further to that, it's unsustainable for those around you who don't share that relentless appetite for hustle, and you burn people out.
5:35
Andy: You lose good people along the way.
5:38
Andy: You become a terrible husband and father, as I did through various times in our journey.
5:42
Andy: So I'm very proud of what we achieved on paper, but I'm unfortunately had to learn the hard way, through almost a complete mental and physical breakdown in early 2018, that it wasn't sustainable and then make some changes to get that healthy hustle back into my life, as you would say.
5:58
Andy: Fortunately, it wasn't too late.
6:00
Andy: I'm now still happily married and think I'm a good father.
6:03
Andy: I'm highly engaged in my children's lives, so maybe I'm one of those people who learned the lesson before it became too late, but I definitely paid a lot of heavy prices for the success we enjoyed.
6:13
Andy: There's no doubt.
6:18
Ness: And do you think, then, that you know, as you move forward into whatever comes next, you know now or into the future, those lessons that you've learned, that you would do things differently the next time around?
6:25
Andy: There's no doubt, yeah, I'm a completely changed my own DNA, I think, over the last few years and again, like many of my lessons along our journey, I learned them the hard way.
6:35
Andy: I had some really awful moments and you know I don't want to spoil too much of the book for the listeners who might go out there and read it or listen to it but was moments where I was running around the Mervyn North golf course at two o'clock in the morning in the middle of winter, just bursting into tears.
6:50
Andy: My heart was just pumping in my chest and I just collapsed in the heap and just completely fell apart.
6:56
Andy: I was on the phone to be on blue two or three times in some nights just trying to help me get through to the morning because I hadn't had a good night's sleep in months.
7:04
Andy: And then the funny you have a message on LinkedIn from a competitor.
7:08
Andy: That's like I can't believe the success you guys have enjoyed.
7:10
Andy: It must be incredible.
7:11
Andy: I'm so envious of everything you guys have achieved.
7:14
Andy: I'm like well, really, because my life is actually a bin fire right now and that's why I decided to write the book.
7:19
Andy: What's it All?
7:19
Andy: I wanted people to know what happens behind the veil sometimes, you know, when you achieve great things, especially in a short period of time, there's almost always a cost that people need to be aware of.
7:29
Nicky: And that's what we talk about a lot is that this version of success has become too costly.
7:34
Nicky: And even reading your book and I highly recommend for everybody who's listening and watching to grab a copy.
7:40
Nicky: It's very entertaining, very funny, it's really interesting and there's a lot of really key, important business and life lessons and messages within that and this piece around.
7:50
Nicky: When you talked about, on the outside it looked like everything was brilliant, was great, like everything you'd worked towards, yet on the inside it felt so different.
7:59
Nicky: And you know you talk about being neurodivergent and there is, I guess, a DNA in that as well the hustle, and people will hustle in different ways.
8:07
Nicky: So I'd love to know how have you actually created the change that perhaps you wish you had created earlier in the day, or how do you do that?
8:18
Nicky: For those that are listening, they might be like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I'm here, this is just where I'm at.
8:23
Nicky: What are the things that you did to now live so, so, so differently?
8:27
Andy: Well, I think for me, bringing in a life coach at that time, when my life had completely fallen apart, made a huge difference.
8:32
Andy: And if people are in this position where they can afford to do that or they have the time or money to do so, then I would highly recommend it because it was the best investment I ever made was that investment in my own health and wellbeing, and I've learned some really good lessons about just how to bring discipline into my life and to acknowledge the kind of person I am and to not give myself that latitude sometimes to go and just be obsessed for long periods of time without a break.
8:57
Andy: So I would bring structure into my calendar.
8:59
Andy: I probably halve the amount of meetings I have in each week and I would allow large gaps in between meetings to reflect on the meeting I just had or the interaction to think about and prepare for the upcoming one, just to go for a walk and just to think and to be and to just let everything just kind of absorb in my mind.
9:17
Andy: Because if I don't do that, I'm running and doing everything at a great rate of knots and I'm focusing on quantity not quality.
9:23
Andy: So I've found that that's actually addictive in itself.
9:27
Andy: When you find that beautiful balance in your life where you're doing everything really well at a high level and you're super engaged, you actually get better work done and you're happier and you're a better spouse and parent, a better friend, and you lead a more sustainable lifestyle as well.
9:43
Andy: So I highly recommend it.
9:46
Nicky: There's that tipping point.
9:47
Nicky: Isn't there around realizing that actually the hustle, the way that I hustled to this point, to get to the level of success that I have, I need to find a different way to hustle, and a key message here as well is that it's not about not hustling anymore.
9:59
Nicky: It's about doing it in a way that is fulfilling for us, holistically sustainable and healthy, and that impact on the people around us.
10:08
Andy: Yeah, and I think, especially for founders.
10:09
Andy: I mean, I share two common traits with many other founders that I a hopeless micromanager back in the early days and that I want to be involved in everything, every decision.
10:17
Andy: I want to understand everything.
10:19
Andy: At the start, I wanted to be the person who answered the 1-300 number and I wanted to install the system and follow up with the customer and manage the entire customer experience from end to end, because I knew that I had control over their entire experience.
10:32
Andy: It achieves your short-term goals, but it's not sustainable.
10:35
Andy: And I think most founders go through that stage where they have to learn to let go and to realize I don't need to be in every meeting and be part of every decision, firstly because it's not sustainable for my own energy levels and, secondly, my team is never going to grow and spread their wings and develop.
10:49
Andy: So the happy byproduct of me falling apart and my life becoming a train wreck is that I couldn't physically come into work for six months.
10:56
Andy: I would sit in meetings and I had sweat patches start pouring through on my shirt and I started feeling physically ill and I had to go back home and crawl into bed and change the sheets when I woke up because I'd sweated out all of my stresses for hours, so that six months I couldn't work.
11:11
Andy: My team just rose to the occasion and they really enjoyed that freedom to make decisions and to just run things past me, but to be able to execute, and they became great leaders in their own right.
11:21
Andy: So it's not the way I'd recommend everyone go about learning.
11:24
Nicky: No, which is why we're having this conversation, because how do we get through to people earlier?
11:29
Nicky: Because there is that feeling she'll be right.
11:31
Nicky: Nah, more good, like not even seeing and realising or owning or realising that there's a problem.
11:37
Andy: Well, for me, I would say you need to connect with like-minded people.
11:40
Andy: You know the old saying that your network is your net worth.
11:43
Andy: The most valuable part of having a good network is when you feel that loneliness at the top that a lot of people do experience as their business grows and they can't confide in their staff about what they're dealing with.
11:53
Andy: It's not always considered to be helpful or great leadership to be that vulnerable with your team as you're growing a business.
11:58
Andy: Sometimes you don't want to bring that home to your wife or husband or dump your stresses onto them.
12:03
Andy: You need to find the outlet to be able to share your concerns whether it's joining a young professionals organization or some sort of a like-minded network of people who are dealing with similar challenges and almost use it as a form of counseling and being able to just download some of that stress to someone who genuinely understands what you're going through.
12:20
Andy: It allows you to preserve the best of yourself for your staff, for your family, for your friends and to lead a more balanced lifestyle.
12:27
Andy: So I highly recommend reaching out to people even if they're not in your industry, just people that have dealt with similar challenges, and usually you find that you help each other.
12:34
Ness: Yeah, that's so important, isn't it?
12:37
Ness: It's just what we can help other people if we're further ahead on the journey or if we experience something that is life-changing is to really just show them the way forward and to be able to help them to not experience what we've gone through.
12:55
Ness: I'm really curious to understand a little bit more around.
12:57
Ness: You were talking like, especially in the early days around micromanaging, and you know, one of the things that came through in the book was you're really proud of the culture that grew in East Gippsland Solar and then, when RSCV Solar took over, that you were able to go through this amalgamation and bring in all these different people, and the culture still remained really strong because there was a big focus on that.
13:21
Ness: So what was it then that, if you were so wanting to be involved in that, how did your leaders become part of this impressive culture that obviously they then shared and became a part of with their team?
13:36
Ness: So what do you think the thing was there?
13:38
Ness: Was it something around what you did, what you said, or was it more around the collective that created that culture?
13:45
Andy: Well, I have a lot of shortcomings as a leader and I don't really have any qualifications or skills in a lot of areas.
13:50
Andy: One thing I'm really passionate about, and hopefully I was really good at, was just almost like seeing myself as a CEO, as being the chief enthusiasm officer, like just selling that dream and saying we are changing the world, we are slinging sunshine every day.
14:03
Andy: We're giving the gift of renewable energy to all these people and reducing their electricity bills for 20 years into the future.
14:09
Andy: We're building a big business that employs people, that reinvests in the community, that makes money and is also providing a positive effect on the future of our planet for the next generation.
14:20
Andy: So it's just that every day you come in and going guys, I know it's hard, but just remember, this is what we're doing, this is the purpose that we're on, and many people in other jobs and other industries would love to have the kind of purpose and mission that we have.
14:32
Andy: It's just, day after day, just drumming it into people, reminding them of the bigger picture, and they go.
14:38
Andy: It is pretty cool actually what we're doing.
14:40
Andy: Yeah, yeah, it's a wonderful journey.
14:42
Andy: We're part of this revolution which is changing the world, and make no bones about the fact, or have no shame in the fact, that we are building a business that makes money and creates fantastic employment outcomes for people, and you know we've enjoyed financial success, but not at the expense of the planet.
14:57
Andy: So I think inspiring the team and getting them to buy into the vision was really helpful and teaching them the gift of giving to others and paying that forward as well.
15:06
Andy: So not micromanaging their own teams and learning to step back and teaching them to fish rather than buying them a fish.
15:12
Andy: It's almost like a contagious effect that just spreads through the organization, where people take more joy out of empowering someone and watching them go on to get credit for doing something amazing than doing it themselves.
15:23
Andy: I preface it by saying that I learned that lesson the hard way.
15:26
Andy: Like I said, I was a terrible micromanager, particularly for the first five years, but once I had a taste of sitting back and giving someone the tools and watching them go and flourish and getting no credit for what they'd actually achieved themselves, I learned to find a joy in that.
15:38
Andy: That became incredibly intoxicating and I think that spreads through the organization, where people take more joy in the achievements of others than getting credit for it themselves.
15:47
Ness: Yeah, so you're all on the same page about why we do what we do.
15:51
Ness: And then you know and I think I remember reading in the book as well around the vision, getting the vision and the values and, you know, really bringing people on board so that they understand what we stand for.
16:03
Andy: And also we're really big on promoting the achievements of others in the organisation.
16:06
Andy: We would have internal awards where someone would nominate someone else for an incredible act of selflessness or something that met the company values.
16:13
Andy: And I think one thing that a lot of businesses do really poorly which I think we're really good at as we grew was celebrating the quiet achievers in the business.
16:21
Andy: Every business has those people who don't self-promote.
16:24
Andy: They're not constantly brown nosing or being a sycophant to the boss, they just get their job done to a high level every day, and everybody that ever run a business would be able to identify who those people are in their own business.
16:36
Andy: One of my messages is lift those people up and celebrate them.
16:38
Andy: So you're not just celebrating self-promotion, but you're celebrating people that are exceptional in what they do, that really care about their job, because they get forgotten in businesses as you grow particularly.
16:47
Nicky: That's so true and it's so easy then to put your attention to the loudest person in the room as an example.
16:53
Nicky: But taking that more expanded view and I've got so many notes throughout my book, you know, so I know as an author that's a good feeling and even I've written down here, like talking through this values, managing energy and North Star.
17:06
Nicky: They seem to be a really good trio mix of what helped you move through to eventually continue and to be where you are today in terms of your success.
17:16
Andy: Yeah, I think so, and I think the ultimate test of that was when you take a business that started in the garage of your family home and after 10 years you sell it to RACV, a multi-billion dollar insurance conglomerate Very different values, to be honest, than those of Gippsland Solar, Our staff.
17:32
Andy: Christmas parties used to be just a bathtub full of beers and ice in my shed and I was turning the snags, and they were great nights.
17:41
Nicky: I really miss them.
17:41
Nicky: I did feel nostalgic actually reading a lot of the book, like the traveling.
17:44
Nicky: We're the same age, so I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, I remember back in the 2000s, but anyway, yep.
17:50
Andy: Yeah, it's a nice part of the journey to reflect on.
17:53
Andy: Sometimes I think we forget how hard those times were and we look at the it's like looking at the photos from your holiday you think, oh, that was a great trip and you're like, actually, the kids walked the whole way, yeah.
18:01
Andy: But then being thrust into that corporate world when I had no experience in corporate world and I had no desire to get into it at all and bringing a team of maybe had about 100 staff at that stage.
18:13
Andy: There's a lot of lessons in that, but a strong foundational base of values and North Star and alignment is obviously critical.
18:22
Andy: But you're always going to be tested really, really strongly in terms of bringing your team into a new environment, selling them a new dream.
18:28
Andy: You can imagine when I stood there and said to my team this is a great day for our business and they go well, you've just had a payday, so, of course, you'd pay that.
18:36
Andy: So you've got to also treat them with respect and acknowledge that it's.
18:45
Andy: You know it's great for you more so than them in a lot of ways.
18:47
Andy: But I think learning how to unite in public but then debate in private you know, once we'd sold the business was really cool.
18:50
Andy: I know my chair, nicole from RACV, listens to some of my podcasts and she would heard me say in the past that we had some very, very strict, stern conversations, I would say, and we fought some serious battles behind closed doors, but we always proverbially held hands and walked out together and said this is where we're going, because she understood how important my team was to me.
19:08
Andy: But I also understood that if I wasn't completely aligned to this new mission and these new values as an RECV company, that my team would pick up on that and that would just spread through the entire organization and undermine all the work we're trying to do.
19:20
Andy: So yeah, it's hard sometimes and I'm sure anyone in a middle management or in a corporate role would have appreciated this over the years that sometimes you just have to be strong with what you believe in.
19:28
Andy: But once you've decided on the direction, you just have to be all in together and completely aligned with your messaging, otherwise it all falls apart quickly.
19:36
Ness: Absolutely.
19:36
Ness: I remember learning that lesson when I was leading back in the day when I was in the Centrelink world, and learning that from a leader above me who just openly admitted that she did it really badly one day and she just realized that she just undermined everything and actually it was terrible for the team because it just created this them versus us kind of experience and that is not.
20:02
Ness: That just shifts the attention from the focus that you want it to be on about the culture you're building and the reason why you're here.
20:08
Ness: So such an important lesson.
20:11
Andy: You'll always have to.
20:12
Andy: In that situation I was in, you're always going to have to sell a message to your team that you don't wholeheartedly believe in.
20:17
Andy: That is just the way of the world, that's the way of business, that's the way of politics, of everything, and I struggled to come to terms with that because I thought I was maybe selling my values up the river in some ways.
20:27
Andy: But ultimately it's just about fighting the battles that you truly believe in and accepting that sometimes you have to just grow up, and if you want to sell your business, you can't keep control.
20:35
Andy: You can do one, but it also comes to the other, and so that growing up process for me was probably the greatest learning experience of my professional life, because I'd be selling a vision to my team, saying here's what we're doing, and they're looking at me going.
20:47
Andy: This is not you, andy, this is not what you believe in or what you would have done.
20:53
Andy: I was like this is the world that we live in and this is where we're going, and I support the new direction, and you're going to have to come and lock in behind me, because this is where we're going, whether you like it or not.
20:59
Nicky: I think that's a really important reminder for all levels of leadership as well, because as we progress in leadership sorry, if we've in leadership it is that beautiful balance of knowing when and where to have your unedited conversation and who you're having that with, and the opportunity to share your voice and go into battle and go into fight.
21:19
Nicky: And then, equally, how do we again have that unified front?
21:22
Nicky: And if it really is a misalignment, then it's a bigger question really, at the end of the day around, is this actually right for me?
21:28
Nicky: But it's just, it is the reality of leadership.
21:31
Andy: Yeah Well, it's no different to any relationship or marriage or anything.
21:35
Andy: It's about picking your battles.
21:37
Nicky: Yes, true, negotiating, where you can, you win some, you don't win others.
21:42
Andy: And sometimes being right doesn't help.
21:43
Nicky: Sometimes it actually makes it worse, yeah that's true, and exactly, and just let it go, even if we are right, just let it go, and exactly and just let it go, even if we are right.
21:50
Ness: Just let it go.
21:51
Ness: Have you heard?
21:52
Ness: Our book Healthy Hustle, the New Blueprint to Thriving Business and Life, is available right now to purchase.
22:00
Ness: In Healthy Hustle, we take you through real-world, practical and achievable steps to move you away from unhealthy hustle to a place of happiness and living, whilst continuing to achieve incredible business results.
22:18
Nicky: I would love a little bit of insight which feeds into this as well, particularly around when you were talking about letting your team win and get the results, and then you get this sense of pride around that, and you do have a chapter in your book and it's all around pride versus ego.
22:32
Nicky: Would you be able to give us a little snippet of what this definition is for you and how it plays out?
22:37
Andy: Yeah, as I alluded to in the book, I think that pride can be really helpful sometimes.
22:42
Andy: Being proud of your business, being proud of who you are, being proud of your success, can be a very healthy thing and cause you to achieve incredible things in business and in life can be a very healthy thing and cause you to achieve incredible things in business and in life.
22:54
Andy: But I think the point where it becomes ego, where it becomes pointless pride, was really where I had to try and find that line and I stepped over it time and time and time again.
23:01
Andy: So I only speak as someone who made, again, a lot of mistakes along the way.
23:04
Andy: But sometimes, when you're fighting a fight or you're engaged in competitive tension with another business or doing something in business that stimulates an emotional response, I just learned to sort of pause and go.
23:16
Andy: Why am I actually responding to this?
23:18
Andy: Is it actually going to achieve anything or is it just here?
23:21
Andy: Is it just to serve my ego?
23:23
Andy: It's not always easy to work out the right answer there sometimes and those two, pride and ego, do kind of overlap with each other.
23:31
Andy: But there was a lot of things that I did in business that in hindsight were really just pointless pursuits to either refuel my ego or to respond to something that emotionally provoked me, but there was nothing to gain.
23:44
Andy: Sometimes you just have to sit back and let someone have a victory because ultimately it's just not worth it.
23:50
Andy: And a lot of that really only comes with time or experience, or maybe making those mistakes and learning the hard way, and I was fortunate to have some guiding hands on my shoulder over the years of people that kept me in check, even some of my team that I came out of a meeting one time and I thought that I'd really nailed this address to my team, and then one of my general managers called me and said you sounded a bit up yourself today.
24:12
Andy: I said, really, he goes.
24:16
Andy: Yeah, yeah, you did, and I reckon there was a few looks in the room that probably told me other people felt the same way and I said why don't people tell me these things anymore?
24:25
Andy: And he said because they're intimidated by you.
24:26
Andy: That was a moment that hit me between the eyes, because they're intimidated by you.
24:30
Andy: That was a moment that hit me between the eyes because, for someone who's worked in the garage starting their business and worked till midnight, got on the roof and taken the skin off their nails laying their own solar panels back in the early days.
24:38
Andy: You can't see a time where you'd be perceived to be so successful that you intimidate people.
24:42
Andy: It just didn't even occur to me that I'd be intimidating.
24:45
Andy: I wanted to be approachable and I thought that I was, and at some point people were too scared to give me honest feedback because they were intimidated, which was an awful feeling.
24:54
Andy: But that again becomes, I think, your ego getting in the way.
24:58
Andy: That you need to be humble and vulnerable enough with your team that they feel they can give you this feedback, and my team knew when I asked for feedback.
25:05
Andy: I want feedback.
25:06
Andy: I don't want platitudes or anything.
25:08
Andy: I want to be told exactly what I can do to improve as a leader, and you know you're not going to upset me or offend me.
25:14
Andy: I need this feedback, otherwise I'm not going to be able to continue on my own growth journey.
25:21
Nicky: I think what's important in that is it's how you respond to it, isn't it?
25:23
Nicky: Because I've seen this before with you know, I worked with a GM who had an open door policy.
25:25
Nicky: It open door policy.
25:26
Nicky: It's like why aren't people coming in?
25:27
Nicky: Two hours a month, 15 minute meetings, book in, you can talk to me about anything, and the slots weren't being taken up.
25:33
Nicky: Why?
25:33
Nicky: Why?
25:34
Nicky: Why it's about what we say, but then it's just purely because of title, right, Like there's that intimidation piece.
25:42
Nicky: But I don't know, do you think that that ever really goes away?
25:44
Nicky: Because there is a status and a hierarchy, even if you, as a good human, don't want there to be.
25:48
Andy: I think you can always try to lessen the impact, while acknowledging that will always be an issue, Like if you think about yourself coming into an organisation, maybe at the fifth level of an organisation, you wouldn't even after a couple of years, potentially, you wouldn't go to the CEO and say exactly how you feel about something or give them any feedback.
26:05
Andy: You just wouldn't do it.
26:07
Andy: So it's not realistic to think that everyone will do that, but you do need to do as much as you can to create the vulnerable leadership.
26:14
Andy: I think that I was really big on oh you know, I would bring members of my team after I had a bad day, I made a bad decision.
26:21
Andy: I'd ring one of my team and say I could have handled that a lot better, couldn't I?
26:24
Andy: And they say yeah, probably, and then we just workshop it.
26:27
Andy: It's the same with your, your children, just admitting that you know, mum and dad have flaws.
26:31
Andy: We make mistakes.
26:32
Andy: We're more mature than you guys are, but we're still human and we still make mistakes, and I think humanising your shortcomings and your mistakes that you make creates a really safe place for everyone else to start to open up as well and also to give you that two-way feedback.
26:46
Andy: That's really important.
26:48
Andy: And the other thing I found is in an RACV world where I was so busy all the time I had so much to do there was two or three days a week.
26:55
Andy: Thankfully during COVID I didn't have to come in the office five days.
26:58
Andy: But I try to use that time really effectively and say when I am busy and when I've got a lot of pressure I'm not coming into the office, Because the last thing you want to do, especially in an open plan kind of environment, is to be sitting there with steam coming out of your ears or just stressed and looking unapproachable.
27:12
Andy: So I would do all of my work at home and hustle really hard at home to get on top of everything.
27:17
Andy: And when I didn't have much on my plate then I would go into the office and I would just go seat by seat, sit down, have a chat with people.
27:22
Andy: What are you working on?
27:24
Andy: I saw that project you guys delivered.
27:26
Andy: The customer said you knocked out of the park.
27:27
Andy: I'm really really proud of everyone you know just going person by person and just having that conversation to get to understand what's happening in their world and just humanising your role so they don't see you as some figurehead, but actually is just another member of the team who wants the same things that they do.
27:42
Ness: There's a lot in that, because I think there's the ability to be able to carve out the time, because so many leaders that we talk to, particularly in corporate space, talk about the fact that they just they're so time poor, they have so many demands on them and that the coaching or the conversations that they have have to take a back seat because we've just got so many other things that we have to focus on.
28:06
Ness: And yet it's just like so I don't know.
28:09
Ness: It's so triggering for me, because I know that it's those one-on-one conversations you're having with your team.
28:14
Ness: To really find out where they're at, or to give them that feedback and hear the good things as well as the critiques, is vital, because people need to feel a sense of belonging, they need to feel like they're making a difference.
28:27
Ness: They need to.
28:27
Ness: I mean, they want to be acknowledged.
28:29
Ness: They want to be even the quiet ones but in their way right To be able to say, hey, great job, and this is why it's a great job.
28:37
Ness: So I think that you know that self-awareness around who am I, how do I work best, and probably through learning, and also you know what it is that you know about yourself.
28:50
Ness: I would imagine the did the ADHD diagnosis come later in life or earlier in life?
28:55
Andy: No, no, it was pretty clear to everyone when I was 10 or 11 years old.
28:58
Andy: Right, okay, there's something going on there.
29:00
Ness: That was something, and I ask that question because Nicky's only just had that happen for her in the last couple of years, so that's meant some great conversations between us.
29:10
Andy: It all makes sense now, doesn't it, Nicky?
29:12
Ness: Ah, I see.
29:14
Andy: That's why I do those things.
29:16
Ness: Absolutely so, because we are so big on healthy hustle in our business that we hold ourselves accountable to that and each other.
29:24
Ness: And I think what?
29:25
Ness: Initially I'd be going Nicky, why are you working so late?
29:28
Ness: You know that's not what we do, and blah, blah, blah.
29:30
Ness: But now it's around when she gets that laser focus and can smash out all this particularly creative work.
29:36
Ness: It's got to be when she's got the energy and the focus for that.
29:40
Ness: And then the question then becomes not about reprimand, not that I'd reprimand- her but you're so bad, but it would be not around you.
29:52
Ness: You know what are you doing?
29:52
Ness: Working so late.
29:52
Ness: It's like when are you going to take some equivalent time off just to recharge those batteries?
29:55
Ness: Because if you go, go, go, go, go at that pace, it's great, because you smash out a heap of work in that week but then you fall in a heap the next week yep, I agree and I I think there's been a really unhealthy focus on leaders that want to be seen to be the first in the office and the last to leave.
30:10
Andy: I know every leader is different in their own style, but I just don't understand it.
30:16
Andy: My job is not to be the one that is there for the longest hours.
30:19
Andy: It's the one that sets the vision and the direction, and when I am there, I'm highly engaged in the team.
30:25
Andy: I'm really invested in what we're all doing together.
30:27
Andy: But they don't need to see you there for hour after hour grinding away on a computer.
30:32
Andy: I don't think it achieves anything and I just don't think any leaders that I've really worked with honestly spend enough time of their 100 points of energy on focusing on their team and spending time just with their team, even with nothing on the agenda, just spending time with them, understanding them as employees, understanding them as people, getting to work out how to get the best out of them.
30:56
Andy: Even some of the performance reviews where I'm saying I want to come in, I want to be a part of this myself, because I want to say to the person that we're reviewing, or performance monitoring, is how can we help you to help us.
31:04
Andy: What can we do in this business?
31:07
Andy: There has to be something that we can do to help get the best out of you, because at the moment, to me you don't seem happy, and if you're not happy, you're probably not performing to the highest possible standards.
31:15
Andy: So tell me, what can I do and what can I change in this business to help create a better environment, to help get the best out of you?
31:21
Andy: And when they see the CEO of the organization super invested and asking them for that feedback directly, I think it's very empowering and it makes people realise they have a lot of agency in their role and makes them take their job more seriously as well sometimes.
31:35
Ness: Absolutely.
31:35
Ness: And if you set that tone from top, then you have the opportunity for the leaders in the next level down to be able to learn from that and to be able to apply that to their own leadership skills, you know, so that they also then go.
31:49
Ness: Actually, this is really vitally important in this business that people matter.
31:54
Ness: And I might be great at the technical things and I might be, you know, a superpower if I can shut the office door and everybody leave me alone, but if I'm a leader in a business, I'm actually here to lead people.
32:06
Andy: Yep, that's exactly what the core focus should be leading people, showing them that you're all on this journey together and a lot of the things that happen behind the scenes are not as important to them as whether you really care about them and understand them as people.
32:18
Nicky: So what I really also love about this is, in order to be able to have the time to be with people and to do that one-on-one, we've got to have our house in order get on the balcony of the business.
32:29
Nicky: You know a lot of the things that we talk around about people, performance principles, so focusing on culture, operating, rhythms, skills when we get to a place of time freedom.
32:38
Nicky: The ultimate definition of that is choice with our time.
32:41
Nicky: So I think this is a great call to arms for every business owner, founder, listener, ceo, leader that's listening and watching to say, well, how can I get to that place of time freedom?
32:55
Nicky: So the goal is that I spend more time with people, rather than the time versus outcome.
33:00
Nicky: Oh, time, that whole morning, first thing in the morning, last person out at night that is just so old school now, come on, come on, there's a different, better way here.
33:08
Nicky: Right, if you're still doing that, it is time to find a different, better way, like we've got examples here.
33:14
Nicky: So, yeah, very, very cool, and I'd love to know before I hand back over to Ness for our wrap up question these days, right here, right now, 2025, you've written a book, you've done incredible things and congratulations on your journey.
33:27
Nicky: All of it, the ups, the downs.
33:29
Nicky: To be here today with us having this conversation is very inspiring.
33:33
Nicky: So you know, congratulations on all of that.
33:35
Nicky: What does healthy hustle mean to you today?
33:38
Andy: Well, I'm at a stage in life where I want to be able to work if I want to, not because I have to Like.
33:43
Andy: For me, work is only just a part of who I am now.
33:46
Andy: I was always seen as the solar guy or the energy transition guy.
33:51
Andy: You know that was always my identity and that served the business well.
33:55
Andy: It probably helped our business to grow, I think, over time but I always felt that I was being pigeonholed a bit and I felt like I was so much more than that.
34:03
Andy: So for me, it's about identifying what is it that you want to be known for other than what you do for a job?
34:09
Andy: Because it's not who I am.
34:10
Andy: And so I think you need to think about your identity more broadly and you need to think about work as a part of your life, but not wrap your whole identity up in it.
34:20
Andy: And I kind of again, I made a lot of mistakes and suffered the consequences of that, because I had wrapped myself up in the business and become just Andy the solar guy and then then we sold the business and I left.
34:30
Andy: I just had this massive identity crisis of who am I now?
34:33
Andy: So you know, there was a life after it, which was very scary, and I pretty quickly realized that I'd become very one dimensional in my life.
34:41
Andy: And so now, other than someone who built a business and sold it and did quite well and all the things we achieved, I'm you know, I'm an author, I'm a coach of my kids' football and cricket teams.
34:52
Andy: I'm the president of the football club in our local community.
34:54
Andy: You know, I help to volunteer on cleaning bees up the main street and working on community groups to help, you know, improve the facilities in our town.
35:03
Andy: There's a lot of different things that I would use to identify myself rather than just being the solar guy.
35:07
Andy: So I think, thinking about your legacy, beyond what you do for a job and what makes you happy, and if it was all to end tomorrow, what do you want to be known for in your life?
35:18
Andy: And for me there's, you know.
35:20
Andy: I just have this urge to do everything all at once because life's so short and I want to live four different lives at once.
35:27
Andy: I want to live a whole life just achieving incredible things in business, and I want to have another life where I have 10 kids and be an amazing dad, involved in every part of their lives.
35:35
Andy: One part of my life wants to just travel to every country in the world and do it all and see everything and meet everyone around the world.
35:41
Andy: There's just there's so much to do in this life and I think if work gives you that joy and working 60, 70 hours a week is satisfying, you really enjoy it.
35:50
Andy: Then go and do it.
35:51
Andy: But I think there's a lot more out there in the world to experience and to get a well-rounded version of who you are as a person.
35:58
Ness: Absolutely.
35:59
Ness: Wow.
35:59
Ness: Is there anything someone could have said to you when you were in that peak of it, when you were in that part of the hustle, hustle, hustle?
36:07
Ness: That would have perhaps shifted your mindset back then?
36:11
Ness: Actually, there is a better way that I could be doing this.
36:14
Nicky: Because in the book you talk about, self-care was an option for later.
36:18
Nicky: It's optional for later.
36:20
Nicky: You know, running it was the hustle.
36:22
Nicky: Push that self-care.
36:23
Nicky: You hadn't had a holiday for 10 years.
36:25
Andy: Well, if I'm being honest, people probably did try to warn me and I probably didn't listen.
36:30
Andy: You know, I could definitely accept that.
36:33
Andy: I had enough of those people around me trying to give me that perspective.
36:37
Andy: No, I think I feel in some ways like I had to fall over myself to learn that.
36:42
Andy: You know, I pushed myself too far.
36:45
Andy: It's almost like that elastic band that eventually had to snap and I I can remember acutely the minds, the headspace that I was in in the six or 12 months leading up to my, my breakdown.
36:54
Andy: I think I knew in the back of my mind there was a problem, but I had no intention of doing anything about it.
36:58
Andy: I just thought that my work ethic and my passion and my drive was my superpower and that was.
37:05
Andy: I actually believe that that was what was ensuring the success of our business.
37:09
Andy: That's why we've done better than everyone else is because of this, relentless.
37:12
Andy: So I know it's not the right answer, but there's no right or wrong in this.
37:17
Ness: Yeah, it's honest.
37:18
Andy: Like I genuinely believe that we were successful because of that relentless nature.
37:22
Andy: I know now that it actually wasn't necessary that we could have done it all.
37:25
Andy: We could have had all of that success maybe taken an extra 12 months and I wouldn't have had to take the time for a mental breakdown, but I guess.
37:33
Andy: But what I'm really passionate about now and what I'm currently doing post the book launch and everything else is I'm really invested in getting out on the speaking circuit talking to schools and kids who are neurodivergent or don't fit into a system they're struggling with life in some way, or people that are right on the edge of that crashing burnout that I went through and saying I have been where you are and I can tell you what happens.
37:56
Andy: It might happen in six months, it might happen in two years.
37:59
Andy: Potentially it might never happen, but I can tell you it's more likely to happen than not.
38:09
Andy: And I still remember the first presentation I gave, once I'd recovered to the point where I could actually talk about my struggles and I thought I was okay.
38:12
Andy: And I got halfway through my presentation to a couple of hundred people and I shed a tear and I started stumbling my speech and I thought I'd stuffed the entire presentation up, but maybe that actually added to the gravity of my story.
38:25
Andy: But some guy came up to me afterwards with his wife and his son and they'd been nagging him to just get out of the office and just to look after himself a bit better and they gave me a big hug and then they said to their dad they say this is, this is the guy you're going to turn into.
38:40
Andy: We told you don't end up like this guy.
38:42
Andy: And we had a big hug and I didn't get their names.
38:45
Andy: I've never spoken to him again, but it was a beautiful moment and I'm getting those beautiful moments to without being arrogant about.
38:50
Andy: Like every few days I get a message on LinkedIn or something from a person who's read my book and said I've just put the book down and gone and spoken to my wife about some stuff I've been holding back.
39:00
Andy: I've now gone to see a counsellor, I'm'm in such a better place and I thank you for starting that conversation and opening up.
39:06
Andy: That's what it's all about.
39:09
Andy: So, to anyone out there, if you get an opportunity to pay it forward, please do so at every opportunity, because it's a wonderful feeling to improve everyone else's health and wellbeing through your own lessons.
39:19
Ness: Wow, that's such a powerful ending to this incredible conversation.
39:22
Ness: Thank you, andy, so much for coming.
39:24
Ness: We always end on what's an actionable action someone can take in the next 24 hours, and I'm probably going to leave it open to you, but I'll guide it in the sense that if there's somebody listening who sees themselves in you, it's like what is it that advice that you want to give them that they can actually take on board and either reflect on or do something with in the next 24 hours?
39:48
Andy: Well, some really good advice I had recently was that, rather than make a to-do list, make it to-be list and we're always big on to-do lists.
39:55
Andy: I make them every day, lists of things I want to tick off throughout the day, or news resolutions or something like that, but a to-be list is just thinking about what do I want to be more of as a person and what do I want to be less of For me.
40:09
Andy: I reckon over the last few years I've seriously neglected a lot of my friendships.
40:13
Andy: I've had friends that are dealing with terminal illnesses.
40:16
Andy: I've had friends that are going through relationship breakups and I've just had my head so far at my own backside and prioritizing everything else in my own life.
40:23
Andy: I haven't been a good friend.
40:24
Andy: So I just woke up the other day and I said what's my to-be list?
40:28
Andy: And my to-be list at the moment is to be a better friend.
40:30
Andy: So every day I take an hour to message three or four people I really want to keep that connection with and just reach out and ask them how they're going with something and just checking in, saying how you're doing.
40:39
Andy: So, whatever your to-be list is if there's something you want to be more or less of as a person, really reflect on that and make this the year that you start to be more of the things that you like within yourself and a version of yourself that you can be really proud of.
40:54
Ness: Love it, I love it.
40:55
Ness: What a great action to be taking.
40:56
Ness: You've got me inspired to be doing something.
40:59
Ness: The same, definitely me too.
41:01
Ness: Yeah, Nicky as well.
41:03
Ness: Thank you so much, andy.
41:04
Ness: It's been wonderful having you here with us and we wish you the best in whatever comes next.
41:09
Ness: People go out and get this book.
41:11
Ness: It's amazing, and we'll drop the links in the show notes for sure.
41:14
Ness: Thanks, andy.
41:15
Andy: Thanks for your support.
41:16
Andy: It's been great chatting.
41:17
Ness: No worries, bye, bye.
41:18
Ness: Thanks for listening to today's ep.
41:22
Ness: If you loved what you heard, connect with us over on LinkedIn and let's continue the conversation over there.
41:27
Ness: Did you hear?
41:28
Ness: You can now buy our book Healthy Hustle the New Blueprint to Thrive in Business and Life at healthyhustlecomau.
41:36
Ness: Want us to speak to your team or run a workshop on healthy hustle in your workplace?
41:41
Ness: Send us an email, or go old school and give us a call to discuss.
41:45
Ness: Until next time, happy listening and here's to thriving in business and life.