Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - EP. 349 - Gunrunners & Tramps

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JFK ASSASSINATION - EP. 349 - Gunrunners & Tramps · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: He is not pas Tobies show Bee send it from
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: will be made and true be stantial, be rop condential
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: for bandy mean Sancho be jobs, send it Tim be
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: made and some mean Santo be sp conte jo for
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Vandy sit Charlie.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: Do seeing it a bad shame?
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Chance do nothing, ty to.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: Sell um show kill.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: We go.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: And here we go.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: I guess what's up? Everybody? Welcome to the show. This
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: is episode number three and forty nine gun Runners and Tramps.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: This evening we will be diving into a little bit
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: about atf agent Frank Ellsworth and John Franklin l Rod
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: and some other folks that he was in jail with
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: in Dallas at the time. Before we get there, Joe,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: let's welcome in some of our peeps.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, good evening, Let's do it. Why don't you do that?
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: All right? We got Scott up in the house. Hello,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Scott tiny is up in here? The double B Brandon,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: what's up, buddy.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Double B?
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Let's see yeah, Trey shreve Portray in the house.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: What's up?
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Trey? Uh Rock? And Queen Colleen is here. Hello, Colleen.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: I hope you were feeling better, Colleen?
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, gardening guns up in the house. It's been a while. Oh,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Randy Brooks back in the house. What's up? Brother? Social
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: outcast is here? Our boy Lee Herald Oswald, Roger Maynard,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: our music man is up in the house. What's up, Buddy, Roger.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I think that's everybody that's that we can see. Anyway,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there's more lurking in the background. Uh, don't
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: be shy, folks, say Hi, how you doing? Hell, Hell,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: it's Friday night. We came to rock out with our
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: you know what's out and uh for those who came
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: to the all members show this past Wednesday, because remember
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: the last Wednesday of the month is available to all members,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: including spooks, we kind of discussed how we were going
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: to try to make the shows a little shorter, because
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: you know, we understand it to two plus hours of
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: a show is a little ridiculous, but you know, it's
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: it's a weird topic. You know, you get you get
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: to talking and all of a sudden, I mean, Joe Ship,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: We're to, you know, two and a half hours into
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: something and feels like we just started, you.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: Know, it really does. And I look at the clock
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, whoa, And that's just we have fun
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: and we love bullshitting with everyone talking about a topic.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: We are all passionate.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Sally, Hello, welcome in, Sally. All right, Joe, we want
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: on that note without further at adieu, Let's jump right
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: into the show, shall we.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: Let's do it. Do you want you want me to
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: start with Ellsworth?
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: Okay. I had something come up and I joined like
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: as the intro was starting, So Rob and I did
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: not discuss that.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: But Frank in a message earlier he may or may
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: not have listened to. I don't know, Yes I did. So.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: Frank Ellsworth probably not a very common name in the assassination,
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: but once I get done describing his Shenanigans and almost
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: Westbrook type movements on the twenty second, I think this
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: name will be very interesting to you guys. So essentially,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: Frank Ellsworth was an agent for the I R. S.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: Division of Alcohol, Tobacco and tax It was called the
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: ATT but now it is known as the ATF. That
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: was a precursor, and he was an undercover agent, and
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: he was buying guns from people that were running guns.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: One of his let me bring this up. One of
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: the guys he was investigating and buying guns from was
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: a local Dallas guy named John Thomas Mason. And he
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: is interesting because this ATF agent, Frank Ellsworth alleged to
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: the HCA that Mason was responsible for some of the
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: Oswalt sightings as an Oswalt double. So I actually found
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: a picture of him, Rob and let me bring this up.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: So John Thomas Mason, and I am now going to
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: read from someone would have talked by Larry Hancock. John
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: Thomas Mason, one of the more interesting gun dealers in Dallas,
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: was rumored to be connected to the Minuteman as a
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: weapon source for right wing buyers of many sorts. He
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: was suspected of reworking semi automatic weapons for full automatic
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: firing and of trafficking in controlled explosives. Because of these reports,
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: ATF agent Frank Ellsworth began an investigation of Mason, in
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: which Ellsworth and another ATF agent eventually under cover placed
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: the purchase with Mason for a number of automatic weapons,
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: supposedly a right wing buyer in New Mexico. And so
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: John Mason was arrested on November twentieth, two days before
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: the assassination, for the possession of dynamite. He was out
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: on bail the next day, but would be back in
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: jail after they kind of revoked his bail on the
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: twenty second.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: And it's a bad day to get arrested in Dallas.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: It is, as I'm sure you know you'll get into.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: So the initial charges against Mason had been the federal
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: offense of trafficking and controlled materials explosives and his release
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: on bail. I guess he got like released on federal bail,
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: but then the local Texas charges placed rearrested them two
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: days later, and ATF agent Ellsworth described Mason as a
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: virtual look alike for Lee Harvey Oswald. And I want
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: to get your thoughts. I see a resemblance. There's not
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: many pictures of him out there.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I see a faint resemblance. I mean, anybody who
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: was young, dark hair, receiving a hairline, you know, weighing
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: a book sixty five, clean cut, no facial hair brunette,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: you know it's gonna kind of look like Oswald, you
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? Right, A lot of these guys
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: wore the same kind of haircut back then, you know,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know this guy looks like Larry Crayford.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Does this guy look like Michael Payne. Does this guy
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: look like Lee Oswell and so on and so forth,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. But yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: I mean kind of yeah. I wouldn't say he's a
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: dead ringer, but yeah, Well.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: Ellsworth thought he was a dead ringer, and that's what
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: he told the HCA. So we will get into some
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: of those documents in a second. But so you have
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: this guy Mason, a right wing gunsmith. He's supplying arms
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: to Manuel Roderriguez, the leader of the local Dallas Alpha
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: sixty sixth branch, and he's connected of the Harlandale Els. Rob.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: And so was Mason and Oswald double? And why did
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: Ellsworth think so? The claim that Mason resembled Oswald came
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: from Frank Ellsworth. He was adamant that they were almost identical.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: Obviously to a certain degree, such things are open to interpretation. Ellsworth.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: The problem with this documents, Rob is he talked to
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: the Warrant Commission off the record. He talked to the
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: HSCA and that interview was not available, and we'll get
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: into some of the aarb's efforts to try to get
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: those but he did talk to author Dick Russell, and
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: that's where we get a.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Lot of this from Thedie Dick Russell.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: Yes, and Ellsworth's claim that Mason was mistaken for Oswalt
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: is pertinent. If Mason was a provocative man at the
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: sports Drome rifle range, then he was certainly getting noticed,
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: and if he was at Sylvia Odio's apartment, the evidence
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: does not look good as far as Mason's innocence goes.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: So one of the things that has been thrown around
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: is that Mason could have been the guy at Sylvia
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: Odios because they're offering arms to Sylvia Odio of connections
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: to Jurey, and maybe Sylvia Odio thought Mason was Oswalt.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: But of course then you have the whole calling her
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: back and saying Leon Oswald and that guy's crazy. So
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: you got to wonder what's going on here. But all right,
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: let's go back to my power point here. So Rob
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: actually before this, Ellsworth had an interesting day on November
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: twenty second. He started his day with meeting with guess
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  Speaker 3: who I know. You know the answer to this.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Enlighten me, sir James hosty Ah, yes, yes.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, So essentially people alleged that his cover was blown
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: during the November twentieth arrest of Thomas Mason. So on
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: the morning of I'll get this up here, Okay. So
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  Speaker 3: on the morning of November twenty second, nineteen nineteen sixty three,
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  Speaker 3: Frank Ellsworth from ATF, along with Ed Coyle of Army Intelligence,
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: took place in a meeting at the ATF office with
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: Jim Hosty. So you have, you know, a few hours
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: before the Assassin Nation, they're kind of getting together interagency cooperation.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: You have Army Intelligence, you have ATF, and you have FBI.
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  Speaker 3: This meeting was the first time he had heard of
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: the invest investigation of the thefts from fork Hood, which
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: I know you're going to get into. But then somehow
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: rob this dude, Frank Ellsworth ATF is alleged to be
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: the Secret Service agent on the Grassy Knoll, and Jim
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  Speaker 3: Hosty accuses him of this and says he says he
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  Speaker 3: told him. Ellsworth told Hosty he was the agent on
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: the Grassy Knoll. So of course I'm not really going
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  Speaker 3: to take Hosty's word for it, per se. But he
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: told the HCA that. But and then so after he's
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: alleged to be on the knoll, he goes inside the
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  Speaker 3: Texas school Book Depository at the time the cartridges were found,
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: and I found this from the This is from Warren
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: Commission hearings, and this is describing when they found the rifle.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: Lieutenant Day held up an envelope open while Sims dropped
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: them into the envelope. Lieutenant Day then walked over to
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: where the rifle had been found. Tetive Studebaker and Lieutenant
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: Day took pictures of the rifle. Mister Pinkston of the
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: FBI and the Secret Service agent who were there at
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: the time of pictures were being made. We don't know
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: the Secret Service agent's name. Mister Ellsworth and another officer
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: from Alcohol Tax Department were also there. Lieutenant Day then
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: picked up the rifle and dusted it for fingerprints. So
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: here you have it. In the Warran Commission hearings, mister
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  Speaker 3: Ellsworth present inside the TSBD during the time the rifle
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: was found. So he goes from meeting with host Y
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: to possibly being on the knoll, and then to inside
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: the TSBD, which is why I made that analogy of Westbrook.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: The everywhere man.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, so, well, this is just more information on Mason.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna skip this for now. So he's called to
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: give a deposition on the HFCA and the subjects of
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: this are ATF Ellsworth, Frank Leslie, FBI methodology, host, d
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: Game Mason, and TSBD. But Rob, this testimony is not available.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Well, nobody's founded at the archives.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: Yet, right, so it's not available online. Allegedly it is
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: not the archives.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: And you know, hey, Malcolm Blunt, you missed something said.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: But this is going to be a trend when it
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: comes to Ellsworth. Yeah, So fast forward to the aar
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: B here and the FBI only had jurisdiction over gun
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: runners if their activity is also violated the Neutrality Act.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: Otherwise jurisdiction rested with the alcohol, tobacco and far arms agents.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: ATF agent Frank Ellsworth testified in his newly released deposition
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: that he believed Dallas to be the belief point for
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: weapons for the impending November invasion against Cuba. And remember
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: he is undercover buying weapons from right wing scuffuses, right Yeah.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: And we know people like Lawrence Howard and Lauren Hall
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: were bringing weapons trailer from loads of weapons to Dallas
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: in October of sixty three.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: Right, since ATF was monitoring the activities of such men,
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: pertinent investigation investigative reports of ATF should be obtained by
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: the Archives, not only as they relate to Dallas, but
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: to Los Angeles and Miami as well. Needless to say,
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: plans for an invasion of Cuba at the end of November,
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: if true, cast the assassination of President Kennedy in a
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: different light. So Ellsworth is saying a lot of people
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: are stocking up on weapons for an invasion of Cuba
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: from Dallas, which is interesting because you think maybe if
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: Kennedy was shot. After Kennedy's shot, that's where you can
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: kind of start your revolution. I don't know exactly what
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: their plan was. I'm trying to make sense of it.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: I think they were Kennedy getting killed at that time
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: kind of screwed their plans up, like that wasn't part
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: of the plan. Like you know, maybe they were planning
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: something and invasion at the end of November, and when
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Kennedy got killed, that kind of screwed everything up for him. Maybe.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know who you figure was planning this. I mean,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Dallas is not the most strategic place to launch an
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: invasion from considering it's partially landlocked. But I don't know.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so the reason this is so murky is you
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: have undercover federal agents infiltrating right wing gun runners who
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: are selling arms to anti Castro groups, and FBI and
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: everyone else kind of involved. So it's really a fascinating
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: situation here, and it even gets better the portions. This
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: is a remember from our conversation with Andrew Eyler, this
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: is one of the earlier arb This is a public hearing.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: There are portions of the newly released Ellsworth documents released
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: to them, not to us, that remain redacted. These documents
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: should be released in their entirety to better understand what
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: was happening in Dallas in the fall of nineteen sixty
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: to three, and to identify the foundation for Ellsworth's professional
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: opinion that Dallas was the assembly point for weapons to
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: be used in an invasion. The Ellsworth Mason documents also
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: focused attention on some nefarious activities of Army ordnance officers.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: An examination of the Woodier Miller trial transcripts clearly point
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: to help from the quote inside in the theft of
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: weapons from military installations. While this may prove embarrassing to
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: the military, it is not justification for withholding the documents,
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: So keep this date in mind. October nineteen forty, nineteen
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: ninety four, they're trying to get these documents, and two
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: years later, in April nineteen ninety six, guess what, They're
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: still trying to get these documents. On several occasions, official
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: investigations the assassination of person Kennedy contacted Frank Ellsworth, an
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: asient for the ATF. In April sixty four, a Warrant
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: commissioned staff member interviewed mister Ellsworth regarding gun running and
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: other possible activities of anti Castro and right wing groups
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: in the Dallas area see Warren commissioned memorandum from Burt
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Griffin to W. David Slawson David April sixteen, sixty four.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: So they have evidence that that this interview happened. We
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: just started the interview, which makes you quite think why,
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: of course.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I have some kind of an interview, Joe. Okay,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: it's it's hella off the record, for sure, but I
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: did find something. Let me see here. It's a memorandum
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: to David Slawson from Burt Griffin on April sixteenth, nineteen
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: sixty four. Yeah, that's right, and it's an interview with
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: agent Frank Ellsworth. Okay, great, that's that's and here's what
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: it says. It's not long, it's less than a page.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: So Special Agent William Patterson and I spoke with Agent
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Ellsworth in his home in Dallas, Texas. Ellsworth has finished
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: law school for investigating gun sales for the Treasury Department
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: in Dallas Fort Worth during the last four and a
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: half years. He stated that he was more familiar with
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: traffic in arms in that area than any other agent
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: of the government outside of the FBI. Most of this
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: interview was totally uninformative. However, I believe we learned three
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: things of value. Only three. Number one is, at the
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: time of the assassination of the president, there was almost
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: no information available to the government concerning the activities of
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Dallas Cubans and other groups in illegal armaments. So basically
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: what they're saying is the government had no information regarding
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: the activities of anti Dallas, anti Castro Cuban exiles or
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: illegal gun running in Dallas. Number two, an organization known
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: as the Minutemen is the right wing group in Dallas
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: most likely to have been associated with any effort to
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: assassinate the president. This is, of course, Frank Ellsworth's opinion
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: number three. The Minutemen are closely tied to General Walker
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: and hl Hunt. I mean, he just blatantly throws Walker
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: and Hunt right under the bus to the Warrant Commission,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: he says.
• 22:33
  Speaker 5: He.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Ellsworth described in some details undercover efforts and procuring the
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: arrest of a local gun shop owner, Mason, who is
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: an ardent member of the Minutemen. As a result of
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: these undercover activities, Ellsworth learned that a Manual Rodriguez, apparently
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: a Cuban survivor of the Bay of Pigs, was attempting
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: to purchase arms in the Dallas area for Cuban Group
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Alpha sixty six. And by the way, Joe Riguez is
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: also a member of the DRE That's what the paper says.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Agent Ellsworth indicated that virtually all information gathered by the
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: FBI with respect to right wing anti Castro, Cuban and
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: others so called subversive activities was the responsibility of the FBI,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: in particular Agent James Hosty. I got the impression from
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Ellsworth that Hosty is personally responsible for most investigative information
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: developed in Dallas in connection with subversive activities. Ellsworth, like
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: agents Howllett and Patterson of the Secret Service expressed his
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: dislike of Agent Hosty. Each of these persons brought up
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Hosty's name and commented on his own without prompting from me, Sincerely,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Bert Griffith, So that ain't very nice. But again, Ellsworth
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: didn't have much to say other than to throw host
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: the end of the bus and pretty much say nobody
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: really knew anything about the Cubans in Dallas or what
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: they were doing. It was Hosty's responsibility. And there you go.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: Right, it's nuts. And we've talked about like interagency conflict
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: a lot on the show, Rob Right, I think this
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: is one of the best examples because you have this
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: dude's cover Elseworth allegedly being blown on the Wednesday, November twentieth,
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: and then everyone gets together, right, Army Intelligence, Hosty, FBI,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Ellsworth atf in a morning in the morning on November
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: twenty second to try to kind of hash this all out.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: And then you have, of course Hosty saying Ellsworth told
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: me he was on the knoll, and it's very likely
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: he could have been on the knoll because he found
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: his way into the TSPD. I showed that document of
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: the Warran Commission earlier.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: So yeah, now, and I tried, Joe. I don't know
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: if you were able to find, but I could not
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: find a picture of Frank Hillsworth anywhere.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: I had to put the.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Badge on the damn. I wanted to put him on
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: the cover photo for this, you know, thumbnail for this episode,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: but I couldn't find a picture of him.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: I couldn't either, and I read some stuff. I think
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: it was on like Dealey plausea echo of people trying
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: to find a picture but they were all redacted or
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: you know, the picture of him is not available. So
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: you have to ask why why is this picture not available?
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: Why is is HCA deposition not available? Why is whatever
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: he talked to Burt Griffith of the Warrant Commission off
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: the record not available? What are they hiding here? I
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: don't know. It's very suss very let me just bring
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: this up.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Because he was doing undercover work, I don't know.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: That's that's like the logical explanation. But like I read
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: in that ARB letter, it still doesn't at this point
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: warrant those records still being you know, withheld.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: But if he's doing undercover work, he's not. He's not.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: The ATF person is meeting with the FBI and Hosty
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: and this and that. I mean, you can't do it
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: all for Christ's sake, you know, right.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: No, But you know you have him buying guns from
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: some you know, army guy that you'll get into, you know,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: the Army ordnance guy. There's a lot of shady ship
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: going on here. And I just want to bring up
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: this last thing here, which is the HSCA on Assassination's
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: HSCA final Report. The committee made an effort to identify
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: the person who talked to Patrolman Smith. Patrolman Smith was
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: a DPD cop who said someone flashed secret Service credentials.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: FBI agent James Hosty stated that Frank Ellsworth, then an
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: agent for atf you're the Treasury Department, had indicated that
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: he had been in the Grassy Knoll area and for
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: some reason had identified himself to someone as a Secret
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: Service agent. The committee deposed Ellsworth, who denied Hosty's allegation.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: So you know, they're pointing the finger at each other,
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: and I really don't know what to make of it,
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: but the fact that all all of these documents are missing.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: On Ellsworth his deposition, what he talked about with Bert Griffin,
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: and I showed you the AARBA is trying to get this.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: They can't. And before I end Rob, I want to
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: read something really quickly from what Bill Sippe said on
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: the Education Forum less than a year ago or exactly
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: a year ago. The Ellsworth story is a black hole
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: research at numerous times, I can't find any written report
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: of the eight t TU, the ATF, or anyone else
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: finding the rifle on the fourth floor. But of course
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: detect Dallas Detective Simms said that Ellsworth was on the
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: sixth floor when the cartridges were found, which, of course
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: I showed you the Warrant Commission document that mentioned Elsworth
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: the only time it does. Ellsworth reported that John Thomas
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Mason a new elite group of patriots arming themselves for
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: defense of the country. Jim Hosti's minute man source. No,
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: that's not relevant. Well, why don't we have the documents
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: showing that Ellsworth was interviewed in any proper way before
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: or after Dick Russell. There's a small mountain of documents
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: on him at the Archives. Almost no on Mary Ferrel
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: and I've been going nuts trying to find me.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Lucky to find the one, the literal one page.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: I couldn't even find that. That's and let's start poking.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: At the dude's house by Slawson in April sixty four.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I mean that he didn't even go before the commission
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: they went to his house right.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: Also Hosting's testimony to the HCA that Ellsworth was the
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: one who identified him as a Secret Service agent on
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: the Grassy Knoll is also I couldn't find. So why
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: is these documents on about Ellsworth not on Mary Ferrell?
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Why do you have to go to the archives to
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: view them? And the only reason I could think of
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: is that there's something to hide via Ellsworth. And there
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: was allegedly seven to eight ATF agents inside the TSBD
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: after the assassination, according to Mary Ferrell and Peter Jilscott,
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: who we talked about members only that was like the
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: critics conference. But we know Carl Carl Booth, another ATF agent,
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: was in there as well. But it's it's nuts when
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: you think about James Powell of Army Intelligence as well.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of things going on there at once.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: So that is all I have on elsewhere.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Cool deal, thank you, Joseph.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't check in on some comments. I haven't
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: seen the child.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Wow, So what kind of spurned this whole vein of
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the investigation? Joe was when this book here came out
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six, called Oswald talked the new evidence
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: in the JFK assassination by Ray and Mary la Fontaine,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: and in it are some stories and information that had
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: never been seen or heard from before, including the focus
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: on the Whittier and Miller incident with the FBI, the
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: hosty stuff, and of course the revelation that there was
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: a fourth person tramp arrested in the railroad yard that
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: day and in jail at the same time as Oswald,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: who happened to definitely run into Whittier and Miller while
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: in jail. The interesting thing, you know, just I pulled
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: this off the shelf, Joe, and I saw that there
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: was a bookmark in here. Okay, I see it right,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: So I'm like, hmm, the hell is because I have
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: not cracked this book in any very long time. So
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: I was looking at it and it's a game stop receipt. Yeah,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: from July nineteenth, twenty fourteen, eleven years ago. Can you
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: guess what video games I purchased nineteenth, twenty fourteen.
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: Okay, something regarding WWE.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: No, well, these are purchased for my kid, so grand
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: theft autough.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: No.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: I purchased a titan Fall for the Xbox three sixty
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: for thirty two dollars. It was pre owned, and the
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Plants Versus Zombies Garden War for the Nintendo DS for
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: thirty dollars, and I reserved Call of Duty Advanced Warfare
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: for five dollars. Time crazy wow for wow a long
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: time ago, eleven years ago brings my memories.
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: I like that. I respect it. But it wasn't bookmarking
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: a certain passage or something. No, it was just in there. Yeah.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: I may have been using it at the time for
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: a bookmark. And then just who knows?
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and Timothy Ryan, why the fuck was Ill's worth
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: even there? Possibly all in knowl and in the TSBD.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: I have no idea. I have no idea how they
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: would get there that quickly.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's who knows? Why was he there?
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Whittier Miller docks, Mister Dave Sparks says, hey, Bud still
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: being withheld for the NSA. Yeah, it's it's it's crazy,
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: It's I don't know what's going on here. I just
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: have to. I just really don't know. It's crazy.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So the story goes November nineteenth, nineteen sixty three.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: This is four days before the assassination. There's an article
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: in the Dallas Morning News that says an eighty mile
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: an hour police chase ended in the capture of two
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: ex convicts hauling a load of stolen machine guns in
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: a swank sports car at six forty pm Monday at
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: gazz and Hall. I guess it's the intersection. Nabbed were
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Lawrence Reginald Miller, who gave police his addresses Route fourign Ken,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: and Donel Darius Witter, aged forty three, a five time
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: loser who listed his addresses three twenty eight South Edgefield.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: Five time loser because he got arrested five times. Yes, okay.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Man. Miller received deep facial cuts when the black nineteen
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: sixty two sports car crashed into a utility pole and
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: he went crashing through the windshield face first. Poor bastard.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: He survived, though, I think, right, oh yeah.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Just a little worse for the wear. In the car,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: police found two air cooled thirty caliber machine guns, a
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: forty five caliber grease gun submachine gun, and two Browning
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: automatic rifles. The weapons were identified as part of the
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: loot from the Wednesday burglary of the Texas National Guard
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Armors shop at Terrell, Texas. The chase started by patrolman JB.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Allen and J. R. Sales when they saw the northbound
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: car run a red light on Hall at the intersection
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: of Allen. When they tried to stop the car, it
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: roared north. It speeds up up to eighty miles an
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: hour and five blocks away. At Hall and Junius, the
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: contraband Lady convertible plunged between two autos, halted at a
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: red light, its sideswipe both, and squealed on toward Gaston.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: There the outlaws car crashed head on into a utility pole.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Sales said Winter scrambled from behind the steering wheel and
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: ran thirty feet on foot before tackled him. Miller, his
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: face hacked by glass when his head plunged through the windshield,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: remained it remained in the car. He was treated at
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Parkland Hospital emergency room, then jailed along with Wider for burglary.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Witter was taken to the Parkland under Guard when he
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: claimed that he was feeling ill. Allen and Sales found
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: the stolen guns piled on the back floorboards, covered by
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: a layer of pop bottles, comrags, and a gas heated stove.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, uh. I found this interesting document, Joe, from
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: the City of Dallas Police Department, and it's a letter
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: from M. W. Stevenson, who was the Deputy Chief Commanding
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: of the Criminal Investigation Division c I d to the
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: honor of Old Wagoner car of the Attorney General of
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: the State of Texas. And this was on April seventeen
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: sixty four, Dear Sir. Several days ago, I was contacted
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: by Vincent Draane of the FBI regarding a check of
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: garages and service stations patronized by Jack Ruby. On April fifth,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Lieutenant Cunningham contacted four such places from papers that were
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: found in Ruby's car indicated that he might have patronized.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Don L. Whittier, named in the enclosed report, formerly worked
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: at the Texaco service station at Clarendon and Ewing. He
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: serviced Ruby's car when he came into the station several times.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: As you will recall, Winner was arrested by officers of
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: this department on November eighteen sixty three, at which time
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: two machine guns, two Brownding automatic rifles were recovered, which
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: had been taken at a burglary of the National Guard
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: headquarters at Terrell, Texas. According to art records. He was
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: convicted in federal court and is now serving time for
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: the offense.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: Rob, can I stop you for a seconds. I found
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: something I thought might enhance what you just said, and
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: that is the video. It's only fifty seconds long of
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: Jack Ruby's mechanic Donald Whittier arrested and it shows the guns.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: Now there's some background music. I'm gonna mute it, but
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: with your permission, Rob, I would like to play it
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: since you just read about Jay with the November eighteenth
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: arrest here so on me. It's crazy. I can't believe
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: I found this. And this is from the site we've
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: played a couple of times Helmer Reenberg, who has a
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: ton of great JFK videos that you can't find it
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: anywhere else. Helmer Reenberg. So let's being muted. I guess
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: you can give your commentary. This is Wittier. And then
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: at the end of the guns look at him in
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: the cell.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Oh got me on, Cameron Nandy. He sends the bitches
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: that's all.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: Right, and and I highlighted a couple of comments when
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: you're reading there, like those are serious guns that could
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: only have came from a military based type of thing.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: I swearing gott you know me, sir, you can search me.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: And look at that. Look at that rob.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so serious tools man whoa oof so.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: And it's kind of cool. I found this video randomly
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: and I figured it would fit in at some point. Wow,
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: look at that.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Do you have a man?
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 40:58
  Speaker 6: For the audio audio And it's like fifty cows, you know,
• 41:02
  Speaker 6: bars and heavy duty machine guns and like not AR
• 41:07
  Speaker 6: fifteen types like heavy duty and.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine them being in the car and they
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: see the cops start to chase him, and they look
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: at each other and they're like should we run? Should
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: I get in the back seat and start shooting his
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: ships at him? I mean you imagine leaning out the
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: window and him just opening fire with one of the things,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: and they might have got away.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: They might have instead of his uh, his face going
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: through the windshield. But look at the cops that are
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: like admiring this. There's only two seconds left.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: That was probably the their big biggest bust ever.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: So that is crazy. So these crazy stuff there so
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to interrupt, but I wanted to play that.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no worries so and then uh, I found
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: a letter to Jesse Curry, the Chief of Police, regarding
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: papers found in Jack Ruby's car. This is from the
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Lieutenant Cunningham of the Forgery Bureau, and he says that
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Donnell Witter worked at Morelli's service station and took care
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: of Ruby's work for him.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: Morelli, I like it. I like.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Morelli states that he does not know if they were
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: friends or had relations other than that of customer and
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: station attendant or not. Winner was arrested November eighteenth for
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: burglary of National Guard armory. I understand this that he
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: has been convicted of this Berkeley in federal court. Now,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: whether or not these two skuffous actually did the burglary,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: we don't know, but they definitely had stolen property that's
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: for sure in their car. Which brings a us joe
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: to an interesting little known figure named John Franklin L. Rod, who,
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: along with the La Fontaines finding the three arrest reports
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: of the tramps and their true identities, happened to find
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: the arrest report of another man arrested on November twenty
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: second nineteen sixty three, by the name of John Franklin L.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Rod now hence the name the nickname the Fourth Tramp. Right.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. According to his arrest report, he was arrested, like
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: I said, on eleven, twenty, two sixty three, at two
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: forty five pm. So this is about the time that
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: they're bringing it out. Well, how'swe would have already been
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: back into station by then.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so a little after the Texas right yeah.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: He gave his address as thirty three fourteen Night Street,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: aged thirty one, and the charge is investigation of murder
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: and vagrancy criminal vagrancy. The location of the offense four
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: hundred block of Elm Street, Okay, tight premises where arrested
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: railroad tracks. Okay, so he's right there in the middle
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: of the ship. It says this man was arrested on
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: railroad tracks a few minutes after a radio call was
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: dispatched that said a man was walking along the railroad
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: carrying a rifle. This man was not carrying a rifle
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: at the time of his arrest, but we arrested him anyway.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: This suspect is unimp Floyd states he has been in
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Dallas for two weeks, lost his job last week at
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: the Old Phoenix, states that he has been arrested for
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: theft in d Ui in the past. The arresting our
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: officer was a barn Heart and Heart and Rhodes and Knowlton.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I don't even know how to say this name Helen
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: Hansen maybe I don't know. And the handwritten at the
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: very bottom it says good gone, which is weird.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: Good gone.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's at the very bottom and handwritten it just
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: says good and it's underline and then gone. And I
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: know it's backwards, but it's weird.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: Huh, very weird. Now.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Of course, at the time, no, you know, this didn't
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: get out. This wasn't This wasn't in the news, This
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: wasn't reported. El Rod was just lost to history at
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: that point, right until Joe August eleventh of nineteen sixty four. Now,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: this is of course shortly like a month before the
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: warning report was published. Okay, this kafuza goes wandering into
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: the Shelby County, Tennessee jail on August eleventh, nineteen sixty four,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: in Tennessee. Okay, and it's this is an FBI report.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: L Rod currently lives in Memphis and has been staying
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: at the Harbor House in Memphis prior to the time
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: of his arrest, for which he was placed in jail
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: on August eleventh, nineteen sixty four. The Harbor House at
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: thirteen sixty nine Court Avenue as a home for alcoholics.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: Joe Yes, Yes, I read he was alcoholic.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: May it'ld like to imbibe a little bit? Yeah? And
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: l Rod stated that he himself is an alcoholic. El
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: Rod came to the Shelby County Sheriff's office during the
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: early morning hours of August eleventh, after having consumed a
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: lot of beer and vodka. He was at that time
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: in possession of a sawt Off twelve gage shotgun a
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: pistol grip pump. He stated that he had begun to
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: think of the possibilities of killing his wife, from which
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: he has now separated. Insomuch as he had the sawt
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Off shotgun and the desire to kill her was known
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: to him, he decided that he should come to the
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Sheriff's office and talk and turn himself in, which he
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: did so. He's drunk, he's scared, he's going to do something.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: He's got the gun. He's got the he's got the
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: distaste in his heart. Joe, he's got the evil in
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: his heart right, and he don't trust himself. He needs
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: to go talk to sheriff Okay, where he further advised
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: because now you know, loose lips sink ships, because you
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: know he's somewhat inebriated, and you know he's already admitted
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: to wanting to kill his wife with a shotgun, so
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: why not keep talking. He further advised that he'd been
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: somewhat troubled by events that occurred immediately following the assassination
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: of President John F. Kennedy at Dallas, Texas on November eleventh,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, Shortly after the assassination of the president,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: l Rod, who had been about two and one half
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: miles from the scene of the assassination at Lemon and Oaklawn,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: was arrested by the Dallas Police Department and placed in
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: the city jail. Now, he says he was two and
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: a half miles away from Dealey Plaza, but the arrest
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: report clearly says he was in the four hundreds of
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Elm Street at the railway yards when he was arrested, right,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: So there's that, uh.
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: He says.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: His arrest had nothing to do with the assassination, and
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: he knew nothing concerning the assassination. And at the City
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Jail in Dallas, he was placed in a cell sell
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: tend to be more exact, on the fifth floor, and
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: at that time his salemate was a man whose identity
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: he could not recall, an individual joe whose face was
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: smashed up. This had to be Lawrence Miller was brought
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: into the hallway of the jail where l Rod and
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: his salemate could observe him now. At that time, the
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: unknown salemate made some mention that he had known this
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: man with the injured face as a result of meeting
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: him at a hotel Okay. The salemate stated that five
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: men had met at a hotel and they had been
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: advanced some money under some type of contract. One of
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: these men was reported to have received at the time
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: five thousand dollars, which is a lot of money. In
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, the man with the injured face had
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: received the money, and he was reported to have been
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: driving a thunderbird automobile with a large quantity of guns
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: contained therein Elrod advised he was confined in the Dallas
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: City Jail for a period of seventy two hours, and
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: he was confused at this time concerning the events which occurred.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: He stated he could not recall whether Jack Ruby's name
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: had been mentioned prior to the time of the killing
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: of Oswald, but this salemate at the time had told
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: him that one of the men who had been at
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: the motel referred to above, name and location unknown had
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: been Jack Ruby. This was all the information which l
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: Rod could recall. He stated that on several occasions he
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: has had difficulty remembering due to his extreme use of alcohol.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: He knew nothing concerning the assassination of the President, the
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: involvement of Jack Ruby, and the killing of Oswald, or
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: of any information concerning the possibility of the receipt of
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: money by Jack Ruby, except to hearsay information he received
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: from his unknown cellmate. Okay, yeah, Now, this report was
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: given by the FBI to the Warren Commission, and they
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: did nothing with it, Joe, nothing. They did not investigate
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: any further.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: I wish I could say that shocks me.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Despite the information in the FBI report that I just
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: read you, they figured, Hey, nothing to see here, nothing
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: to see here. There's some crazy alcoholic right right now.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: They have John Franklin L. Rod's arrest record, it seems
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: to be he was born in thirty two. He was
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: first arrested in nineteen sixty one, which means he was
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: almost thirty years old before the first time he was arrested,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: so not necessarily a career criminal at this point. And
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: this first arrest was only for d WI and I
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: n V violation of the state barblaw. Involuntary violation of
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: the state barb barblaw. What is that? Barbituates?
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: I have no idea. I have no idea. How do
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: you spell it?
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: B a arb barb. I imagine it's short for barbituous.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: Maybe anybody had some pills on him or something, you know.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: But this was in May of sixty one in Dallas.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: He was arrested again on Valentine's Day nineteen sixty two.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Another DUI spent three days in jail November fifteenth, sixty
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: two t slash over no build g J. I don't
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: know what that charge is for. He was again arrested
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: in Equipment, Texas on March nineteenth, nineteen sixty three, for
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: simple assault and when he walked into the Sheriff's department
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: in Memphis, he was arrested for investigating a homicide hold
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: for the federal authorities. So based on what he told
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: the locals about the Kennedy thing, they held him so
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: the FBI could come talk to him.
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: Right, the Barbara barb charge seems to come from Barbara
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: Galindo versus the state of Texas. And then you're right,
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: it does have to do with opiate possession. So damn okay, yeah, good.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: Now. On August eleventh, we have a sergeant of the
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Bureau of Identification writing a letter Joe personal letter on
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: Shelby County, Memphis, Tennessee letterhead that says, drive carefully today,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: make it to work tomorrow. August eleventh, nineteen and sixty four.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Mister j. Edgar Hoover, Director of the FBI, Dear sir,
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: please have the enclosed print search through your files to
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: ascertain if the above captioned subject, John Franklin L Rod,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: has a criminal record or is wanted by any law
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: enforcement agency. This subject walked into our office at approximately
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: twelve thirty am on this date and stated that he
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: had information concerning the murder of He had with him
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: a shotgun. The local office of the FBI has been
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: informed of this subject and stated they would conduct an investigation.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Please wire reply collect. So he wanted a call back
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: from Hoover. You know, God forbid the government pays for
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: a phone call. You can call me collect. There they
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: I go, which he apparently did nine days later on
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: August the twentieth. Don't have that though, So you know
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: that the authors of Oswald Talked managed to track down
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: l Rod in the nineties and as part of their
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: book promotion they recorded this guy and in video interview
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: for him and sold it to what was the inside edition.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Not one hundred percent sure on that. It's one of
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: those news shows. You know. When this book came out, dude,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: in ninety six, it was either loved or hated by
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: the critics. I told you about the held wiseberg Uh
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: letter to Jefferson Morley where he ripped him a new
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: asshole for praising this book. Well, I just noticed on
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: the back cover is a blurb by Jefferson Morley the
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: Washington Post. Oh really, yeah, It says it's a fresh,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: funny and factual husband and wife reporting team dive into
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: the madness of the Kennedy assassination debate and emerge sanity
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: Intact with an unprecedented and richly detailed portrait of the
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: militant anti I mean this underground of Dallas in nineteen
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: sixty two and sixty three, fascinating new evidence a military
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: id card Oswald was not supposed to have, the termination
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: of a mysterious CI operation called a hymn spell on
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: the eve of the President's murder, and a revelation by
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: Oswald's cellmate that the FBI suppressed. So even though Elrod
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: didn't come right out and say who his cellmate was
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four, apparently he remembered in the nineties
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: that his cellmate was none other than Lee Harvey Oswald,
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: despite the fact that the Dallas police said that Oswald
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: was always in a cell alone, right, So, I mean,
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: maybe he was for a short time. You know, who knows.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: We'll never know. But there is it's copy. There is
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: an interviews on YouTube you can track it down of
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: John L. Rod on a hard copy where you can
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: hear him talking about this very thing. You can also
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: hear an interview that they did with John Elrod's brother
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: like apparently this el Rod dude like lives in the
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: middle of nowhere on an island in the middle of
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: a river. So ain't nobody sneaking up on this motherfucker? Okay,
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: you better be able to row your bote and be armed. Yeah,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: and you know his brother swears up and down. You
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: know that he knows his brother and he wouldn't lie
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: about this stuff. And he's telling the truth, telling the truth. Now,
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: come to find out the car that they did wreck
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: was a thunderbird. So interestingly enough, l Rod did have
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: correct information in nineteen sixty four about this incident. And
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: he says his cellmate told him that he was at
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: a meeting at a motel the night before, uh, with
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: five other people including Jack Ruby. Now we know Maria
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: Lorenz is the only other one that tells about a
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: meeting at a hotel the night before the assassination at
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: which Jack Ruby was president. And that popped into my
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: hund sir, Yeah, including e. Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis Uh.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: And apparently these these guys, you know, I mean, if
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: you were going to ambush, could you imagine these guys
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: popping out of the grassy, know, with those guns firing
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: at Kennedy? Good lord loe him down?
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So was this some kind of a foiled plot?
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: And they had to kind of you know, deep sex,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: almost plan B or something, you know, you know what
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: I mean. I don't know. I don't know what this means.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: It's hella interesting, it says uh. After having his face
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: stitched up, Miller was remanded to the Dallas City jail.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: All the while Frank Ellsworth waited, not knowing the FBI
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: agent or the Dallas police had intercepted the weapons that
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: were intended for him. The ATF agent then went to bed.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: The next morning, Ellsworth went to Mason's gun shop to
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: find out what happened. So apparently Witter and Miller were
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: on their way to meet Frank Ellsworth to sell him
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: these guns when this happened. Yeah.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: I mean he's undercover buying from a lot of different people.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: It's crazy.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And these gun runners just happened to know Jack Ruby.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: And then you have l Rod in nineteen sixty four.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Minds you saying this shit the exact same thing, h Yeah,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: crazy town, crazy town.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and Rob, I want to bring up something I
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: read and I can't remember where in the last day
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: or two, but some people think that L Rod might
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: have actually saw John Thomas Mason, right, the guy I
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: showed you before who or Ellsworth was Ellsworth El's Rod
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: was investigating and arrested on November twentieth. That l Rod
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: could have mistaken Mason for Oswalt because they were in
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: jail at the same time. Possible, and who knows, But
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: that's what I've read.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: No, it's a good point. It's a good point. He
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: could have thought it was Lee Oswald, but it just
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: kind of looked.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: Like Rhally wasn't he said he was on vodka and
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: beer or was that was that that day the twenty second?
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because if Mason is a gun runner, and you
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: know people are gun runners, bring him guns to fix,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: you know, to make fully automatic or whatever the case
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: may be, he would know for sure Widder and Miller.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: You know, there was only so many dirty gun dealers
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: in Dallas. I'm sure that would do this kind of work,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: like you know under the table.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you wouldn't know everyone. That's just like everyone
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: knew Jeff Roupy.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that is a good point, Joe, Yeah, the point.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: The last thing I got here, Joe is actually an
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: a arr B memorandum from A. Jones Zimmerman and the
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: subject is leads from Ray and Mary Ntane Oswald talked,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: and she basically goes through here and throws out a
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: bunch of things apparently that was in this Lefontaine book,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: some of which, of course are interesting. The claim is
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: John Martine was jailed in Cuba with Sylvia Odio's father.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Did you hear that before? Yeah, so that's interesting. The
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: FBI was apparently aware of gun running and thefts from
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: National Guard armories. The CIA was backing and then withdrawing
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: support from the DRE and Alpha sixty six. Part of
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: the FBI's intention in following the guns was to try
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: to figure out what the CIA was doing. The ATF
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: agent Frank Ellsworth had much less knowledge of the Cubans
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: out of the picture, and he seemed to be focusing
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: only on the thefts of the weapons. The Secret Service
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: did not seem to be aware of the Texas, Florida
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: Cuba gun running angle in its full dimensions until the
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: agency started its investigation after the assassination. So you can
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: kind of see where this kind of thing started. Okay.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: The FBI report which I read just briefly from August
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: the eleventh, concerning l Rod and the letter that Sergeant
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: Gillis had wrote to Hoover directly, and this is what
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: Hoover's response was. Hoover responded to Sergeant Gillis that l
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: Rod had not been held in Dallas while Oswald was
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: in jail. DPD records showed that l Rod was in
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: the Dallas jail at the same time Oswald was there.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: So Hoover blatantly lied to the Memphis PD, blatantly lied.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: What's the Memphis PD doesn't do to Hoover, you.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, and who knows if the Dallas PD even
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: made the FBI aware of l Rod's arrest, you know,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: who knows. One would think that the FBI would know
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: who was arrested for the possible murder investigation of the
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: president on November twenty second, that they would be aware
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: of all of them, But maybe they weren't because nobody
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: had ever turned up. There's the tramp documents before, you know,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: the late points.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: That's a good point. And especially if they like marked
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: it irrelevant to the assassination, right, it wouldn't come up
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: on their radar in theory.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: So again, later in the nineties, l Rod stated that Oswald,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: his salemate, claimed to be in the same motel room
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: when Ruby was paid for weapon when Ruby paid for weapons.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: Lawrence Miller, identified by Oswald, according to l Rod, while
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: in the Dallas jail, said that he was in the
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: same motel room and was one of Ruby's personal gun runners.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: The la Fontaines claimed that other Ruby associates included Donnelle Whitter,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: who was arrested with Miller, who serviced Ruby's car, and
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: Elvis Dala Crymple, A Perry Wydell, and A Marvin Fraser.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: El Rod's comments, if true, both linked Ruby and Oswald
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: before the assassination and connect two seemingly unrelated events and
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: arrest for gun running and the assassination of President Kennedy.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: The Lafontaines claimed that Oswald was the informant who tipped
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: the FBI off on November sixteenth about the gun exchange
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: that was to take place on November eighteenth. So now
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: the la Fontaines are saying that Oswald was the informant
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: who tipped off I guess the local PD or the
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: FBI or whoever, that the gun sale to Frank Ellsworth
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: was going to take place.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: I have heard that Rob and I heard another theory,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 3: and I'm just gonna throw it out there that the
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: Oswalt note to Hosty if that's true and he wasn't
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: informing on this Oswalt. The Oswalt note to host E
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: was about the gun running and not some threat too.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: And that makes sense to me because you have all
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: these different agencies doing all their different undercover operations, and
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: then afterwards they're all trying to save face and cover
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: their own asses. It's it makes sense why these things
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: are are still a lot of these documents are still
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: lot released today right now.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of shit going on in Dallas in October,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: November and in the days leading up to the assassination
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: in which they claim. In October sixty three, at DRI
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: meetings in Dallas, General Edmund Walker attended at least one
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: Lho met Sylvia Odio, who was arranging gun deals. The
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: DRI military chief, Juan Manuel Salvatt, a Cia Asset, and
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: Joaquin Martinez do Pennilios also attended these meetings. Salvat was
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: never asked if he saw Oswald. October twenty fifth, Hosty
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: learned of Cuban invasion planned for the last week of
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: November nineteen sixty three. October thirty first, nineteen sixty three,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: at George Nante, John T. Mason, and George Peril Alias
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: meet at Mason's gun shop. On November one, Oswald met
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: with Hosty. Host He received an airtel from San Antonio
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: regarding John Thomas Mason in Perrell. Same day, Oswald opened
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: a po box as a high deel in Dallas. November
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: eight nineteen s sixty three. CIA decides to withdraw support
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: from the DRE. Announced the DRE on November nineteenth. In
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, DRE already knew in parentheses November twelfth,
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: like you just said, Joe, the hosting note that may
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: have been information and not a threat. The the following day,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: November thirteenth, the theft of heavy weapons from the National
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: Guard Armory in Terrell. The guns originally came from Fort
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: Hood and Killeen, Texas. November sixteenth. Oswald met with Hosty
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: in person in Dallas. November seventeenth of teletype from FBI
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: headquarters to mobile Dallas, New Orleans and Memphis field offices
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: warning of an assassination attempts on President Kennedy to take
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: place November twenty second or twenty third. November eighteenth, FBI
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: agent Joe Abernathy participates in an arrest with DPD. Two
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Cuban gun runners are two to alleged gun runners, Lawrence
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: Miller and Donnelle Whodier in Dallas. ATF Frank Ellsworth, who
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: would set up his own sting to capture Mason, was
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: not previously informed. Remember twenty first, Jack Revel of DPD
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: ed Coyle the one hundred and twelve Military Intelligence Group
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: and hosting meat November twenty second, eleven am ATF agent
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: Ellsworth hosting a coil meat again to discuss gun running.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: After the assassination, Coyle was into Korea where reporters cannot
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: contact him.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: That is interesting.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: That is interesting. So, like I said, Joe, I mean
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: there's stuff, there's rabbit holes you can go down. I
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: believe Mason was also investigated as a source for Man
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: carcano ammunition. There was only so many places as you
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: could buy Man liquor carcano bullets in Dallas, and Oswald
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: had to get him from somewhere. He surely didn't mail
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: order them. Also, the ATF was investigating seaport traders at
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: the time Oswald supposedly ordered his handgun from them, so
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: it's highly unlikely that they wouldn't have known about this. Transaction.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: Let's see, I just wanted to thank Bro the Double B.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: Do you know what he just did? And you're gonna
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: love this. He just gifted ten memberships.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: Holy shite.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: Guess guess who got one of those memberships?
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: You did?
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: You can't make it up as well as Rocket Queen,
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: Colleen Wilt three three three south West, Uh, Cammy Umbrella Man,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: Harvey Runnolds, Kevin Hardy, turn War and the Reactor Kid.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: But Rob, My chat is not working on the side
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: of our studio, which is why I refreshed for a second.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: And people are like YouTube doesn't like Joe, Stop fiddling Joseph,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: But that's what I was trying to do to highlight
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 3: that comment. So I don't know if your chat is working,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 3: but of course I we want to.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: I have no clue I've been reading, so I don't
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: know what's going on. The last chat message I'm seeing is.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: From They're on a tangent there. I saw that, but
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: that is mine too. So our chat stopped working, so
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: I actually have it up on my phone, Rob, and
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: that's how I figured. That's how I figured it out.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: So sorry, we did so thank you so much The
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: Double B.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: You are the goat.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: We appreciate it so much.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you so much, Double B. So you know, I,
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, I recommend if you want to know more
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: about this whole story, check out all's the Wald talked.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: You know, these folks were attacked. This husband and wife
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: team were attacked heavily when they when this book came out,
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: so much so that this was the only thing they
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: did regarding the assassination. And then they dropped off the
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: face of the earth because of the backlash that they
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: faced despite years and years and years of research. They
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: were pretty much smacked in the face by both conspiracy
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: people and loan nutters, and they were like, all right,
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: you don't appreciate it, see you later, Yeah, which is unfortunate. No.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: I ran into some of those articles, some that liked
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: some of it, some that tore it apart. Definitely interesting.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: I have not read that book, and.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: Wisburg definitely not a fan.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: Mortar Is Morley approved.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: It's on the back, but you knew it as far
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: as books from the nineties, you know, then you can
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: recommend with actual new evidence in it.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 5: This is one maybe Newman's Oswald and the CIA, this one,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 5: I mean, did did Harvey and Lee come out in
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 5: the nineties or is that early two thousands.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I want to say it was
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: the nineties, but hell I I don't want to be wrong.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: I mean it was being researched in the ninety for sure. Yeah.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: But yeah, if you can find this book, check it out.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: It's a thicky, definitely worth the money. Apparently, Joe I
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: got it on an Amazon as there's an Amazon sticker
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: on the back. But I have no idea what I
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: paid for it. I just bought it prior to twenty fourteen.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: Hints the game stop right, you were.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 3: Able to date it to date the purchase.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: I like it, Yeah, sometime before twenty fourteen.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 3: But man, there is It's so crazy. There's something going
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 3: on with this gun running story and Ellsworth and other
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 3: ATF agents being on the knoll meeting with Hosty in
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: the morning, disagreeing about being on the null being in
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: the TSBD at the time the Shells were putting the envelope.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't know what's going on. I don't
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: know why these documents are or these depositions with Ellsworth
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 3: aren't released.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: Was Ellsworth captured in the tam Aleah film? I don't know.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, we don't have this picture, so we can
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 3: never know.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: It might be the film, right, he probably.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: Is, and maybe that's the reason his picture has been
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 3: I heard people are like trying to get it and
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: they couldn't get it. And you would think someone like
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: that would have a picture. I mean, granted he's undercover,
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 3: but his cover was blown on November twentieth, all right,
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: so there wasn't any need for it after that. But
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: you gotta wonder, man, you really do this. This has
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: really piqued my curiosity and might warrant some further research
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 3: by us.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: Well there's always next Wednesday.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: Oh oh, we will see.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But yeah, folks, we told you we're going to
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: try to keep it a little shorter this evening, and
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: we went a little longer than we wanted to try
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: something out here. If it works, it works, If it don't, don't. Uh,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: it is what it is.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: We're gonna try Perpetual Concepts ten dollars, super trat Lone gunman.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: I'm reading this from my phone, Lone gunman. I'll keep
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: you gun running. Doobie Bros. Might win Common another night?
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Professional Concepts. Really appreciate it.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: He yeah, thanks brother, appreciate you as always. Yeah, thanks
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: folks for hanging out with us tonight. Joe grabbed the
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: damn caneine and let's get up out of here.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 3: Sir Ruby Moby.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 4: Hanging right now, but great hold on, Hpy.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 5: The greatest lies are told in the name of truth,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 5: the greatest aims are committed in the name of justice.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: The quotation is Jim Garrison's. It could be used for
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: him or against him in this strange case.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 4: Good night, and we'll see members only Wednesday night.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: We have some uh in the description. If you're not
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: already a member.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: Thank you everyone, have a great weekend and we will
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 3: talk to you soon. We have some fun things on
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: the horizon. We do allegedly