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Bridging The Rivers Of Difference From Dr Catherine Meeks Talks That Connect Us · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

• 0:00
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• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Hello and good morning, everybody. How's everybody doing today?
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: Good morning. Good morning.
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  Speaker 1: What is happening with you? You speak so peaceful in
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  Speaker 1: a situation that it needs.
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  Speaker 2: A good, loud voice. What's going on with you today?
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  Speaker 3: Are you talking to me? I am. I am.
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  Speaker 1: You speak so peaceful. And doctor, I'm telling you that
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  Speaker 1: that is exactly what we need right now. We need
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  Speaker 1: a peaceful voice in this time where everybody is so
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  Speaker 1: confused and they think that getting loud is the way
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  Speaker 1: to go.
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  Speaker 3: I know. And I'm so tired of it because, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it's like pouring blood. kerosene on a fire thinking it'll
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  Speaker 3: go out so true it won't and I just have
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  Speaker 3: spent my life trying to be a person of peace.
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  Speaker 1: The title of it says it all bridging the rivers
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  Speaker 1: of difference I mean and to be able to do
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  Speaker 1: that I mean that's that's not a hobby that's a
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  Speaker 1: loyalty that's a dedication that's a determination.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah you're right it's certainly not a hobby if it
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  Speaker 3: were I'd find a new one you know because it's
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  Speaker 3: a hard it's hard journey to do this work and
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  Speaker 3: to be a bridge builder, to care about everybody, regardless, black, white, brown, green, whatever,
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  Speaker 3: because that is the assignment.
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  Speaker 1: One of the things that I've learned over the past
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  Speaker 1: five to six years is the fact that when I
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  Speaker 1: wanted to be more with the real people, Everything kept
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  Speaker 1: pointing to me, go get a job at a grocery store.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
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  Speaker 1: You talk about community, every age group, every nationality, every
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  Speaker 1: person on the planet goes through there. And it just
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  Speaker 1: really has become a place of activation. But you got
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  Speaker 1: to be careful, don't you?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, you do. Yeah, you do.
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  Speaker 2: How have you.
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  Speaker 1: Stayed so strong in these times where people can instantly
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  Speaker 1: just bring up judgment? You go, whoa, I'm not judging
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  Speaker 1: anybody here, but it's just a conversation. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Right. You know, well, for one thing, I'm 80 years old,
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  Speaker 3: so I've really learned a lot. But the second thing
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  Speaker 3: is I really try hard to listen to people and
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  Speaker 3: to try to see where they're coming from and to
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  Speaker 3: really try to understand it, whether I agree with them
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  Speaker 3: or not, and then try to say what I think
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  Speaker 3: afterwards after they've had a chance to say, what they
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  Speaker 3: want to say. When I watch people in the media
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  Speaker 3: being so rude and talking over each other, I just
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  Speaker 3: know that's not a platform I want to be on.
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  Speaker 3: Because if you won't listen to anybody, that's not a conversation.
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  Speaker 2: That's so true.
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  Speaker 1: And I've been known to say on iHeartRadio, I'll sit
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  Speaker 1: there and say, we don't have news anymore.
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  Speaker 2: We have opinions.
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  Speaker 1: They're not telling the news. They're just giving their side
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  Speaker 1: of the interpretation.
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  Speaker 3: That's right. And they think the louder they get, the better.
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  Speaker 3: the better it'll be. I mean, I watched somebody yesterday,
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  Speaker 3: somebody was trying to make a point and they just
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  Speaker 3: kept talking over them. You know, I mean, I grew
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  Speaker 3: up in a house where you didn't do that. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: You just gave me a vision of my father, the
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  Speaker 1: way he didn't even have to even say a word.
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  Speaker 1: He'd give you that look and you knew you better
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  Speaker 1: pipe down because he's coming in your direction if you don't.
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  Speaker 2: But, but you're so.
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  Speaker 1: Open in the way of, you know, that, that, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you can have a disagreement and, And that's the thing
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  Speaker 1: about it. And that's one thing that I'm learning is
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  Speaker 1: that I like a good disagreement, but it doesn't mean
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  Speaker 1: that we have to be enemies.
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  Speaker 2: We can have a disagreement.
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  Speaker 3: Right. Yeah. I mean, you can even yell, but one
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  Speaker 3: person has to yell at a time. Yep. So that
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  Speaker 3: you know what the yelling is about.
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  Speaker 2: That's so true.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And you get into a group of people and everybody's
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  Speaker 1: got their own different version of it. And you're going,
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  Speaker 1: I can't even digest what this person is saying. So
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  Speaker 1: can you just calm down for just a moment? You
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  Speaker 1: have to be able to face that all the time. Right.
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  Speaker 3: But I think, I don't know. We have such, well,
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  Speaker 3: I do know. we have such broken pieces inside of
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  Speaker 3: our souls until we can't tolerate anything that doesn't somehow
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  Speaker 3: make us feel safe. You know, we're scared to death.
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  Speaker 3: And it's so important to get to know yourself, which
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  Speaker 3: is part of what my book is about. It's about
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  Speaker 3: people coming to terms with who they are and where
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  Speaker 3: they are and what their experiences have been And then
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  Speaker 3: our coming together and being respectful of that because then
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  Speaker 3: you're not so scared. Right. And you don't have to
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  Speaker 3: be so loud because you can trust that there are
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  Speaker 3: the humans in the room with you and nobody is
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  Speaker 3: really going to eat you up. You know, people will
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  Speaker 3: sit there and respect you as a fellow human.
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  Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that you put focus
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  Speaker 1: on is the proclamation of unity and the resistance. And
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  Speaker 1: right away, I'm taken into... When Jesus sat down with
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  Speaker 1: the woman at the well, there was no judgment. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: and I live by that because did he not learn
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  Speaker 1: from her and she learned from him? Therefore, they went
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  Speaker 1: back to their own circles and through unity, they were
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  Speaker 1: able to change people's lives.
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  Speaker 3: Well, judging in the first place is risky because who
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  Speaker 3: among us is perfect? And so what am I going
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  Speaker 3: to judge you about? You know, I mean, you may
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  Speaker 3: be just doing the best you can. And I maybe
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  Speaker 3: have some insights you don't have that you might be
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  Speaker 3: glad to have if I'll tell them to you as
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  Speaker 3: if I really care about you. And if I'm trying
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  Speaker 3: to make things better rather than trying to judge you
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  Speaker 3: and send you off to exile.
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  Speaker 1: But isn't it kind of odd today that when the
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  Speaker 1: art of expanding a conversation is there, but what people
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  Speaker 1: are doing is going to a chat GPT or they're
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  Speaker 1: going to Google, they're going, what is the right thing
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  Speaker 1: I should say? How about speak from your heart and
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  Speaker 1: not from your smartphone?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I'm on a tear about that. And I am
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  Speaker 3: an AI resistor as much as I am every other
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  Speaker 3: kind of resistor. Because for one thing, I'm smarter than AI.
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  Speaker 3: And for two things, I will not let something called
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  Speaker 3: artificial intelligence speak for me. You know, I just think
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  Speaker 3: that's ridiculous. But that's right. People want to make sure
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  Speaker 3: that they are perfect and there's no such thing as
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  Speaker 3: being perfect. And they don't know what they really think
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  Speaker 3: because they don't spend enough time paying attention to themselves
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  Speaker 3: to really know. So they just take a shortcut. Now
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  Speaker 3: we got this thing, we just ask it a question
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  Speaker 3: and it'll give us an answer and we don't even
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  Speaker 3: have to think. And that's so bad. It's so sad
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  Speaker 3: to me.
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  Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest eye-openers for me was
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  Speaker 1: when you start looking at the political system and the
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  Speaker 1: way that we vote and then right away I'm taken
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  Speaker 1: back to the stories of the days when this young
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  Speaker 1: man by the name of Martin Luther King Jr. goes
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  Speaker 1: into these meetings and the way they voted by was
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  Speaker 1: by raising their hand. You physically got to see the man.
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  Speaker 1: You got to see the people who supported the man.
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  Speaker 1: And I just, I just feel like that we long
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  Speaker 1: for those days because what is the election, but something
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  Speaker 1: for an invisible person, but yet your voice counts.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, we, yeah, I mean, we, You know, my
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  Speaker 3: son and I, I live with my youngest son, and
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  Speaker 3: we were talking about this age. What would we call
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  Speaker 3: this age? And my son said he thinks we would
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  Speaker 3: call this the age of the human when we're trying
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  Speaker 3: to figure out what that means. Because now we've just
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  Speaker 3: gotten so far away from doing things that remind us
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  Speaker 3: of being humans together. And, you know, and I think
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  Speaker 3: we've got to reconnect to that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, because doesn't that then go into the areas that
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  Speaker 1: you cover, which are family values? I mean, because if
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  Speaker 1: the conversation breaks down at the family level, then how
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  Speaker 1: do I expect to work with you as a co-worker?
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  Speaker 3: Well, that's true. I think the wounding is across the board.
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  Speaker 3: It's everywhere. It's our political system. It doesn't have any
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  Speaker 3: interest in the people that it's supposed to be serving.
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  Speaker 3: We have decided to be Suspicious of each other To
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  Speaker 3: hate one another To be always looking for Something wrong
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  Speaker 3: that somebody did to us Rather than trying to see
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  Speaker 3: How can we build a bridge How can we understand
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  Speaker 3: better What can we do For the common good I
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  Speaker 3: really want Part of the argument of my book Is
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  Speaker 3: if these Marginalized people Could overcome some of the Some
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  Speaker 3: of this negativity that we're talking about and learn how
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  Speaker 3: to form coalitions that they then could become people who
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  Speaker 3: really did have an agenda that was for the good
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  Speaker 3: of everybody.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the things that I really do
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  Speaker 1: try to work on when somebody comes up to customer
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  Speaker 1: service and they're very angry at something that happened in
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  Speaker 1: the store or the food wasn't properly prepared. The grandchildren
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  Speaker 1: are watching grandma or grandpa have a fit with customer service.
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  Speaker 1: I believe on my side, if I stay peaceful, I'm
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  Speaker 1: praying that those kids look at me and say they
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  Speaker 1: can be angry, but he's at peace.
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  Speaker 2: They can get.
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  Speaker 3: Along.
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  Speaker 1: They can work this out and they do work it out.
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  Speaker 3: And it's such a good thing to model for kids
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  Speaker 3: because they will never forget. They will not forget. And
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  Speaker 3: hopefully it'll come back to them. in their lifetime as
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  Speaker 3: they confront things that make them angry, to just learn
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  Speaker 3: how to breathe a minute or two before they start
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  Speaker 3: yelling at people.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you talk about that in your book, Bridging the
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  Speaker 1: Rivers of Difference. You say that today and tomorrow's children
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  Speaker 1: can truly inherit a better community, dignity, and opportunity. You
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  Speaker 1: take that on right away, and you do it with
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  Speaker 1: such grace and peacefulness.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad that comes through because it's really hard
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  Speaker 3: sometimes When you're writing about all of this kind of stuff,
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  Speaker 3: to feel like people may feel like you're trying to
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  Speaker 3: beat them up, and there's no intention on my part
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  Speaker 3: to beat people up. I don't mind disrupting people to
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  Speaker 3: the point of making them ask questions of themselves and
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: checking in to see, is this way I'm living the
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  Speaker 3: best way to go? But I don't want... always for
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  Speaker 3: people to feel like that they can that things are
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  Speaker 3: possible because if you think something is impossible why bother
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  Speaker 3: with trying.
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  Speaker 1: The name of the book bridging the rivers of difference
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  Speaker 1: we're going to be right back with dr katherine meeks
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  Speaker 1: the name of the book bridging the rivers of difference
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  Speaker 1: we are back with dr katherine meeks One of the
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  Speaker 1: things that you cover inside the book, and I'm so
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  Speaker 1: sorry that I always keep jumping back into the Bible pages,
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  Speaker 1: but I swear to God that we are living that
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  Speaker 1: book right now in so many different ways. And when
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  Speaker 1: you talk about the path of building relationships without pretending
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  Speaker 1: the experiences are the same, right away, I mean, that
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  Speaker 1: takes me all the way back even to that giant
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  Speaker 1: trip across that desert floor. I didn't see anybody else
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  Speaker 1: chasing Moses and all those guys to say, oh, yeah, well,
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  Speaker 1: watch me.
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  Speaker 2: You got to cross the river. Well, watch me.
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  Speaker 1: I don't see any of that happening. So it's like,
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  Speaker 1: why are we doing it today if they didn't do
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  Speaker 1: it before us?
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  Speaker 3: Well, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Because it just seems like every conversation we get into,
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  Speaker 1: we want to one up each other and say, stop, stop.
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  Speaker 1: Let's just let's let's just play a game of cards
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  Speaker 1: and have fun.
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  Speaker 2: You win. You win.
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  Speaker 3: If I lose, I lose.
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  Speaker 2: Who cares? We had fun.
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  Speaker 3: Well, you know, the funny thing, though, remember when you
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  Speaker 3: like in elementary school and middle school, if you didn't
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  Speaker 3: get a good grade on a paper and you found
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  Speaker 3: out somebody else got a lower grade, you felt a
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  Speaker 3: little better. You did. You know, you felt a little
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  Speaker 3: better because yours wasn't the lowest grade. So there's something
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  Speaker 3: about not wanting to be at the bottom. That's in
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  Speaker 3: the nature of human beings. But you have to keep
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  Speaker 3: a grip on it. You have to keep a lid
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  Speaker 3: on it, I think. And that's, you know, I start
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  Speaker 3: my book talking about the Cain and Abel story.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: And how Cain thought that Abel was his problem when
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  Speaker 3: he didn't get the response he wanted from God. rather
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  Speaker 3: than asking, what's my problem? He's his brother. He named
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  Speaker 3: his brother as his problem and then kills him. Well,
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  Speaker 3: you just didn't kill the problem because it was your
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  Speaker 3: problem in the first place. And you still have it.
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  Speaker 3: And now you've got your brother you murdered. So the
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  Speaker 3: problem just got bigger instead of being dealt with. If
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  Speaker 3: he bothered to say, God, help me understand what I
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  Speaker 3: need to do so my sacrifice will be more acceptable.
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  Speaker 3: The next time, that would have been a far better response.
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  Speaker 3: And then his brother wouldn't have been dead.
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  Speaker 1: I felt the same way about when David was called
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  Speaker 1: in from the field. I always thought, oh, those brothers,
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  Speaker 1: if that were my family, we'd all be so jealous
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  Speaker 1: if I was called in from the field and given
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  Speaker 1: this role when everybody else wanted to have that role.
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  Speaker 1: But no, David took on that role and everybody, you know,
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  Speaker 1: there wasn't a big conflict. There was later on between
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  Speaker 1: him and the giant, but it wasn't at that family level.
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  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Well... But they were jealous, right? I mean, they
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  Speaker 3: sold him.
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  Speaker 2: They did. They did. But it didn't seem to be
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  Speaker 2: like the Cain and Abel kind of jealousy, if you
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  Speaker 2: know what I mean.
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  Speaker 3: Well, they didn't kill him, you know. And of course,
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  Speaker 3: they didn't kill him because the story was going to
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  Speaker 3: have to, he was going to be the one to
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  Speaker 3: help them out later. But we do that. We do
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  Speaker 3: that even if we don't do it literally. We do
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  Speaker 3: it spiritually and psychologically. We throw people away. We make
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  Speaker 3: them into our enemies or our scapegoats. Either way, and
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: either way you do that, it ends up to still
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  Speaker 3: not serve you because you're not taking responsibility. And I
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  Speaker 3: just think that we have got to start at least
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  Speaker 3: talking about it. It's going to be a long time
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  Speaker 3: before people really own the truth of it. But that's
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  Speaker 3: why I say that there's got to be a new
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  Speaker 3: conversation because the conversation is a starting place.
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  Speaker 1: Well, your book is definitely that because I would love
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  Speaker 1: to see someone like a Stephen Furtick at Elevation Church
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  Speaker 1: be able to pick up this book and say, hey,
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  Speaker 1: we got some bridges that we need to cross, but
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  Speaker 1: we don't need you to be crossed while we cross
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  Speaker 1: these bridges. You need to stay peaceful.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, any contribution that my book can make to
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  Speaker 3: creating peacefulness would be just an absolute wonderful thing for
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  Speaker 3: me to see happen because our country is too violent
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  Speaker 3: and we're just so you can't you look at somebody
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  Speaker 3: the wrong way and they're ready to kill you yeah
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  Speaker 3: i mean it's just like you just got to be
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: so careful because folks are just so full of rage
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  Speaker 3: and then so full of guns you know you put
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: rage and guns together and that's a bad combination Have you.
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  Speaker 1: Been with Martin Luther King's grandkids? Because they're on a
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  Speaker 1: big crusade right now of getting people actively activated in
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  Speaker 1: the most peaceful way. And listening to you and reading
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: this book, I'm going, this is exactly what they're talking about.
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  Speaker 2: Do it with peace.
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  Speaker 1: Say what you need to say, but do it with peace.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, and that's the thing about it is that
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: they're preaching the fact that activation doesn't have to be anger.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be yelling.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. And you can be angry without yelling. You can
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  Speaker 3: use that energy in positive ways to bring change, to
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  Speaker 3: not let yourself get run over by the systems that
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: don't want to change. You just learn how to keep
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: being so intentional until that energy gets used up. But
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: if you don't know about it or think about it,
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  Speaker 3: you just go around spouting off stuff And being ready
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  Speaker 3: to knock everybody's head off without even thinking about what
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  Speaker 3: you're doing. And so it's just completely counterproductive.
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  Speaker 1: Well, then I got to ask you this. When you
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  Speaker 1: start seeing what's going on in society and then you
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: watch a sporting event like an NFL game or NBA
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: and you see it now on display in our sports,
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  Speaker 1: that's not a pretty picture, doctor.
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  Speaker 3: No, and I don't watch sports. Good for you. But
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  Speaker 3: my son, one of my oldest son is a big
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  Speaker 3: sports person. I don't watch sports. And I think that's
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: just another place where we use it. We take an
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  Speaker 3: opportunity to express violence. And then, of course, all of
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: our media stuff, you know, so I don't watch violent stuff,
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  Speaker 3: you know, either, because I'm not going to be entertained
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  Speaker 3: by violence. Yeah. I just think that you have to.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: draw some lines somewhere, regardless of where the culture is,
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  Speaker 3: you need to figure out how you want to be
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  Speaker 3: in it. And, you know, I don't want, I'm going
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: to be an AI resistor. I will resist violence because
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: we can't have peace if we don't choose to live nonviolently.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: I love where your heart is.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: I just don't think people get any, I don't think
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: enough people get that. You know, I just think it's absurd.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: for people who have faith to be carrying guns to church.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: You know, I mean, like, really? What? You know, who
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: do you trust? I mean, I'm sitting in the church
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: house with a gun and I trust that more than God.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: But then how do I make it through the rest
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: of the week?
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: That's right. That's right.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Your church notes on Thursday don't work if you've
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: got a gun on your side.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't work.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God. How many times have I seen myself
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: be taken care of when I thought that I needed
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: to lock my door and I didn't lock the door
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: and nobody bothered me? You know, so it's like clearly
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: the locked door is not about it's not about the
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: locked door. And if you've got faith, you know I'm
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: not going to go out walking down the street in
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: the middle of the night. But if I happen to be,
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: my car breaks down in the middle of the night,
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: I trust I'll be taken care of.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Where can people go to find out more about everything
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: that you're doing? Because I want them to follow you
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: on your path and to grow with you. And like
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: we mentioned in the very beginning, you can have a disagreement.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Just don't yell. Let's just talk.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Let's have a talking, you know, like the old fashioned day.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Sit down. Let's talk, son.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: Well, and if you've got to yell, let somebody yell
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: and then you stay quiet until they finish. That's right.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: So you at least know what they said. Because when
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: both of you are yelling at each other, nobody knows
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: what anybody said. They didn't know you were screaming at
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: one another. My website is turquoiseandlavender.com. And I'm the Turquoise
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: and Lavender Institute for Transformation and Healing. That's my website.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: And my email is cmeeks. at turquoiseandlavender.com. And I would
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: love to hear from people. I answer every email that
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: I get. I want to talk about these ideas. I
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: want my book to be read by as many people
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: as possible and have folks respond to it in all
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: the best ways they can.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love where your heart is. Please come back
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: to this show any time in the future, doctor. The
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: door is always going to be open for you. This
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: is an everyday conversation. This is not one of those, oh,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: when I'm in the mood for it. Oh, give me
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: 10 more minutes. I'll be in the mood for it. No,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: we're talking about it right now.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you very much for inviting me to be there.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: You bet.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, and please share it with everybody. I will.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: You be brilliant today, okay, doctor?
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: Take care.