Latest / Adventure Sports Podcast / Ep. 1107: Moose Mutlow with Decades of Search and Rescue Wisdom

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Ep. 1107: Moose Mutlow with Decades of Search and Rescue Wisdom · Adventure Sports Podcast

0:06
[SPEAKER_02]: and just slipped off and you know what?
0:09
[SPEAKER_02]: People would say they're stupid but it's more and not understanding the incredible forces that play with the natural world and how they're really cared and natural world doesn't care.
0:21
[SPEAKER_02]: It's unforgiving and so when you get pushed into it, it's just doing its job going downstream and you're just another piece of flotsam in the water.
0:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Episode eleven-O-seven, this is Moose Muttload, talking about search and rescue in Yosemite and all over the world.
0:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:40
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk with adventurers from around the globe to bring you the inspiration and motivation you need to get started in the outdoors or to keep you moving if you're already there.
0:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, here's your host, Kurt Lindville.
0:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, friends.
0:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening today.
0:54
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Moose Muttlo has so much to offer us in the way of sharing how to do adventure and amazing places and how to do so safely based on decades of experience in doing search and rescue and wilderness training all around the world.
1:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fantastic episode, but I do need to let you know in advance.
1:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We had some connectivity issues when we were doing the interview, and as a strange as it sounds, the software shifted our voices in several places, and the result was we would both be talking at the same time, and not just a little bit like walking on each other, entire paragraphs seem to be too people talking at once.
1:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So, my apologies in advance, what I had to do is go through and edit.
1:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And in a few places, I reinserted some questions or some explanations so that you would have the context.
1:51
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some places whereby cutting out the overlap, it almost makes perfect sense, but you might pause for a moment and say, well, that was a strange transition.
2:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Rather abrupt, well, yeah, it is abrupt because we lost part of the conversation.
2:06
[SPEAKER_01]: A few sentences might be missing there.
2:09
[SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't detract from the incredible value of what Moose has to offer.
2:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for putting up with these glitches sometimes they happen.
2:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But after quite a lot of editing, I think that I have preserved the best parts of this interview in of this episode.
2:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So Moose, I know you're gonna hear this.
2:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry that it didn't work out perfectly, but it's still a darn good interview, and thank you for your time.
2:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, here we go.
2:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi friends, thank you for joining us today on the Adventure Sports podcast.
2:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I have Moose Muttlo with us and he has done amazing things for over thirty years in the out of doors.
2:52
[SPEAKER_01]: He's done a lot of search and rescue and that was in Yosemite National Park but not only there.
2:59
[SPEAKER_01]: He has also taught guiding in such places as Africa, Australia, Europe and of course the United States.
3:07
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the author of multiple books about these experiences, and he's been an outdoor guide educator and instructor for over thirty years and
3:17
[SPEAKER_01]: He has worked on the Swiftwater Response team.
3:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the main theme of today's show is going to be about what it's like to do search and rescue.
3:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we're also going to touch on his books about the same.
3:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Moose, welcome to the program.
3:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I am glad to talk to you.
3:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I said just before we hit record there that I have such a huge respect for people that do search and rescue.
3:44
[SPEAKER_01]: the challenges that are faced by people to do search and rescue and all in hopes of helping another.
3:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just amazing to me and you have to have a skill set that's out of this world because people got themselves in trouble and then you have to go into places that caused them to be in trouble and get them out so you really need to know what you're doing.
4:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I would also balance that with does that very high end technical rescue that you see with people being lowered out of helicopters and in climate weather high angle rescue where you're lowering people two and a half thousand feet.
4:23
[SPEAKER_02]: there are those and then there's these very simple ones which you just somebody's out walking on the hill and they twist their ankle but it takes ten or twelve people to just litter them out to bring them out on a stretcher and that the technicalities a bit lower.
4:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So I definitely want to balance this idea of massive technical knowledge with
4:41
[SPEAKER_02]: The majority of rescue is a pretty straightforward and they just require common sense and the ability to work and communicate in a team.
4:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a small proportion that has that need for real pushing the very edge of rescue like the co-scards doing a rescue offshore on the edge of a hurricane, trying to which people of a trader that's in trouble.
5:08
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very different.
5:10
[SPEAKER_02]: from a drunk person who stuck on a sound bank on a southern river who just needs to be easily removed from that situation.
5:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Well I'm excited to hear your stories about search and rescue and I know that there are people out there who who probably have been thinking I wonder if I could do that.
5:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really want to do a deep dive into a lot of these experiences but first I have to ask
5:36
[SPEAKER_02]: mousse now is that a given name a nickname a trail name where does that come from uh i i had a long history working in summer camps and the nickname came from that there was a big mousse head deer head on the local pub wall
5:52
[SPEAKER_02]: and every Friday in my first season, I would be summarily fired from my job.
5:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it was that week can be told, go to the pub, have a beer, we'll figure out what we're doing next week, and this big deer head was called the Moose, and people would say hi to the Moose when they walked in the pub, and generally on a Friday I would be sitting there, meriously staring into a plane to beer, and at some point it just locked ten, and it has good alliteration, moose mutlo, and it having worked with young people, if you say your name's Moose,
6:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't personally remember that.
6:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they won't be afraid to ask you a question.
6:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a key piece in all of my life.
6:28
[SPEAKER_02]: There's been having open communication and making sure people can approach you, which is a key tenet within such and rescue is the ability to communicate clearly and succinctly in a moment of response.
6:39
[SPEAKER_02]: But yes, I can see that.
6:41
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be very important.
6:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And where are you today?
6:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Just outside Yosemite, I've spent a long time.
6:48
[SPEAKER_02]: The last is two thousand and three.
6:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I've lived in and around Yosemite.
6:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And around National Parks, pretty much my entire time in the United States have worked in and around the parks.
6:58
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, and it sounds from your accent, like you're originally from the UK.
7:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I am the UK.
7:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, most people tend to try to figure out from South Africa or Australian or British.
7:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm very British.
7:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm from the Midlands, which is the Industrial Heartland of England, Birmingham.
7:15
[SPEAKER_02]: They're a passionate, astinvalor supporter, which is the local team.
7:20
[SPEAKER_02]: But I've been traveling pretty much from the age of eighteen.
7:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I started moving in different countries and working.
7:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So how is it that you ended up in the Yosemite area?
7:31
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of a journey.
7:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I came to the States to visit a relative who was over here and realized what you could do here.
7:40
[SPEAKER_02]: In a lot of the world you can't necessarily make a living out of being a dirt bag with a guy and I was shocked to discover that I could earn as much in a day as I could earn in a week in other countries.
7:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So I quickly figured out a way to get here and guide.
7:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's been this trajectory of field instruction through the management and directing.
8:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And what brought me to you, Samedy, was education directing.
8:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And then ultimately building a new environmental education school that was just opened in your Samedy working for a group called Nature Bridge.
8:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, that's really cool.
8:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And what a way to spend a life working in and out of one of the most remarkable valleys on Earth.
8:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just an amazing place.
8:22
[SPEAKER_02]: It is, and I think sometimes the one thing about you, Saria, will say, is it's an extraordinary place, but the world is full of extraordinary places.
8:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And there are empty versions of it.
8:33
[SPEAKER_02]: If you go to Sequoia Kings and you look at Sequoia Kings, you're suddenly like, wow, this is just somebody without the crowds.
8:39
[SPEAKER_02]: The thing about Yosemite for me, that's very attractive, is ultimately Yosemite is a pulse speed on conservation or initiatives around the world.
8:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it has these challenges with groups, such as challenges with conservation, it has challenges with climate change, and people come to Yosemite as the first national part.
9:00
[SPEAKER_02]: often as an almost a pilgrimage and at that moment they're really open to new ideas or to a different way of doing something.
9:08
[SPEAKER_02]: It becomes an educational exchange and that's one of the reasons I've stayed here is its influence in a broader context across lots of different things, land conservation, the way that we remember human history and we include what is actually the hidden history which is far deeper than the contemporary uses of national park
9:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that idea of being here and the creative force that's associated with that.
9:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I've only been to Yosemite once, and it was truly a magical and impactful place.
9:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And with that kind of a backdrop, I could see how people would be inspired to want to know more about the outdoors, about Yosemite itself, the heritage, the history, and national parks.
9:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, everything about it, and you can't go there without wondering about big wall climbing as well.
10:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just a mecca for climbers.
10:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a defining force within the world of rock climbing.
10:07
[SPEAKER_02]: The idea that you would do this extended multi-day assaults on El Cap that giant face the best part of three thousand feet
10:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And now people are doing it in a matter of hours.
10:19
[SPEAKER_02]: This is even luscious of this past time.
10:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's easy to sort of get distracted by that level, at that high level of a slatter system for these big roots.
10:30
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a ton of moderate roots scattered throughout the part for alpine challenges that are gorgeous.
10:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never been on top of halftime, which is this sort of pivotal experience for many people.
10:41
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's been on top of the neighboring term that has a free climb up there.
10:44
[SPEAKER_02]: because it's not contrived, it doesn't have set of cables and for the challenge that I want, it's the free time was much more interesting.
10:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's a lovely place and listeners out there, if you ever get the chance to go visit, it is amazing.
10:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm going to say something, Lucille, you mentioned that there are amazing places all over the planet.
11:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just going to throw this out.
11:06
[SPEAKER_01]: There are so many places that may not be quite as remarkable or in your face like you'll
11:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But that still have all the natural attractiveness, and these are places that people just don't know about, and there is a lot of fun that can be had in discovering these places on your own.
11:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I love Yosemite, I encourage everyone to go there, but Lucie's right, there are remarkable places all over the world, and especially if you have the ability to appreciate a place for what it uniquely has to offer.
11:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that is part of what makes Adventure so fun is being able to appreciate the local.
11:57
[SPEAKER_02]: all of my best adventures were in my backyard where I didn't have to drive anywhere.
12:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll have an adventure in a city, I love wandering around industrial landscapes and discovering what's out there, whether it's a hidden canal or river that's become subsurface and it just pops up for one block.
12:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean all that idea what is adventure adventure is a feeling it's not necessary a place and it's about freedom and discovery and I think the beauty of National Parks and Public Lands of the United States is in the West there is this vast acreage for everybody to find their their pulse that the thing that really grabs them I think throughout the world the American model of
12:38
[SPEAKER_02]: of preserved land is really important to think about replicating.
12:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the struggle is always how do we best honor the history maintain access and preserve it because you can't have twenty five thousand people descending every week on a tiny strip and not have an impact.
12:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And how do you ensure equity in that?
13:02
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you make sure everybody has that opportunity?
13:05
[SPEAKER_02]: National parks in the West United States are amazing places.
13:09
[SPEAKER_02]: But for the most part, unless you've got a car, you're not going to it.
13:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're already cutting out a large group of people that could use laser.
13:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And while they're up national parks and historic monuments in urbanized areas that have access,
13:22
[SPEAKER_02]: There isn't necessarily the trigger that shows people this is their heritage.
13:28
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the but I think a Ken Burns talked about America the National Parts being America's best idea.
13:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree with that.
13:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's an amazing Democratic thing that's the birthright for every American that there are these places you can go
13:44
[SPEAKER_02]: and you can be technology-free and you can have freedom and you can wander and discover.
13:50
[SPEAKER_02]: We just have to make sure always how do we appeal to a wider group of constituents and broaden our audience.
13:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's dive into the idea of search and rescue.
14:02
[SPEAKER_01]: For those who may not know what we're talking about is outdoor or even wilderness search and rescue and what often happens is
14:11
[SPEAKER_01]: people get themselves in trouble and they need some help out.
14:15
[SPEAKER_01]: But doing search and rescue is it sounds to me like it's a significant commitment and it takes a significant amount of training and skill and knowledge.
14:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Moose can you just kind of highlight what it takes to participate as a search and rescue person?
14:33
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a couple of tiers.
14:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you look at the typical model in the United States, it's volunteers.
14:39
[SPEAKER_02]: It's people who figure out this is what they want to go and do and they commit to a training schedule and they work their local sheriff department or the local police department on part of that search and rescue team and they just have a call out on their phone and they turn up with their own gear and they go out there and they put in huge hours and they have their own customized training track.
15:00
[SPEAKER_02]: where I work is within the federal service, where we actually get paid.
15:03
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't get paid big money by any means, but when there's a call out, we go on to what's called an emergency hire.
15:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And on this end, it's a little bit more professionalised, so there's certificates you might need to get, whether it's a wilderness EMT or a wilderness first responder, you're going to need to get a real specific trainings on rigging, particularly for the high angle work.
15:24
[SPEAKER_02]: there's a whole check out for being on a helicopter and then the my specialty is Swift Ward Rescue and Recovery and there's a certificate vacation program for that as well but a lot of what we rely on is as much as you can get a certificate it's personal experience so if you were to look at the squad right now the core team is family valley
15:45
[SPEAKER_02]: We have some of the best free climbers on large bits of granite in the world.
15:50
[SPEAKER_02]: There are multiple people who hold a cent record, speed records on our cap and a half dome, and that's a measure of their technical accomplishment and comfort in the vertical world.
16:01
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're not comfortable working in really exposed environments yourself, then you're not going to be able to help anybody.
16:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's this balance.
16:09
[SPEAKER_02]: You could do a lot of certification, but if you don't have
16:12
[SPEAKER_02]: That personal experience, where you weren't looking after somebody, where you've had a bit of an epic, or you've accomplished this great traverse, that's really, really important.
16:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's my background.
16:23
[SPEAKER_02]: My background is expedition paddling a lot of time on the water and then the water.
16:28
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where I become useful.
16:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is your swift water response team angle then.
16:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you play to your strengths.
16:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of times when people are trying to help, they said, oh, there's a need and they turn up.
16:43
[SPEAKER_02]: and sometimes that the end up doing something not actually qualified to do or experience it or comfortable to do.
16:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of times when you're trying to help in such and rescue you play to your strengths.
16:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I am not a great vertical person.
16:55
[SPEAKER_02]: If you say sit me on the edge of a cliff and tell me to manage a break, I'm awesome at that.
17:00
[SPEAKER_02]: But ask me to do the math involved with anchors and figuring out whole systems.
17:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really that interested.
17:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but put me on the water
17:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a lot of experience in body recovery, and a lot of experience is figuring out, oh, this is what's happening with the dynamic of the water.
17:15
[SPEAKER_02]: This is how we can make the mission safe.
17:17
[SPEAKER_02]: You play to your strengths.
17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can fill those weaknesses in incrementally over your career.
17:24
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you deny what you're really good at, you're actually missing an opportunity to really excel and contribute at a time of crisis, because it's all
17:34
[SPEAKER_02]: little pots that add up to this successful outcome.
17:38
[SPEAKER_02]: You all have to be good at your game.
17:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
17:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Moose, I help us to understand what it's like in the way of telling a couple of stories, but you get a call and it says there's someone in trouble and X, Y, Z place.
17:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Walk us through what the response is that search and rescue does and make it a water based because that's your specialty, right?
18:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:03
[SPEAKER_02]: So, here's a great one.
18:06
[SPEAKER_02]: When I was living in the valley, so you'd living right next to such a rescue cache, you would carry a small little pager.
18:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, you've got to a universal thing that will almost take nicks along the cell phone, but your pager would go off, and it will be a call out.
18:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And generally you're monitoring the radio, and what you've heard is there's a car in the river.
18:25
[SPEAKER_02]: and so you go racing over and at that point the instant command is starting to assemble what we're going to do and they're going to put out a hasty team so they're looking to go oh we've got moose turn up he's a swimmer I grab my gear and ready to go and get in a car and it go lights and sirens getting traffic and they arrive at the scene and at this point you're assessing what's going on so we've got to car in the river
18:48
[SPEAKER_02]: a group of shivering young people on the side of the road and you've got to figure out that moment we'll have you got everybody out of the car and so you arrive on scene and you're giving an update of oh there's a car in the river it's oriented up so it's got the wheels on the bottom it's stable it's on a sandy bottom it's just basically the water's pushed it into the sand and it's bogged down
19:13
[SPEAKER_02]: and I gear up and I have to swim out to the car and I can get on the roof and not get skewed on anything that might be a broken windshield around thing and at that point I'm actually duct diving in and checking out the interior of the car and shouting to the shore what I'm seeing so I've cleared the car there's nobody in there so since as soon as you've got something like that you're down scaling what's happening and the resources that are coming out are going from lights and sirens which has huge risk when you're driving way too fast
19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: and taking over taking people and people are pulling off on the other side.
19:47
[SPEAKER_02]: We've downscaled it because there's nobody in danger.
19:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And at that point, you're starting to figure out how you're going to pull it out the car out the river.
19:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's breaking the windscreen, the back windshield or the windscreen, figuring out how to pass that big toeing cable through and pull out and it becomes just a logistical challenge.
20:07
[SPEAKER_02]: as opposed to a call where you hear some reason the river I'd been training in snow melts swimming so I pretty much had my gear on and I just jumped in a car and got raised up and met the witnesses and you're sitting there in the rain next to spring flow and you're interviewing the brother and another family member and you're figuring out
20:30
[SPEAKER_02]: who went in the water, how big they are, and if they can swim.
20:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So you get, oh, she's just a taller athlete.
20:39
[SPEAKER_02]: She went in at this location that we initially thought it was downstream, it was way upstream, and she actually was a lifesaver.
20:47
[SPEAKER_02]: She'd actually got a background in rescue swimming.
20:51
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have optimism at that point and you spend twenty five minutes running up a trail with your fins and your wet suit on and then you get to the edge of the river where she went in and you realize there's nothing you can do because the weather is that the river is so monstrous
21:07
[SPEAKER_02]: that to even walk along the side without a good safety it has high risk and so a lot of what I do or did was these responses I have real quick time response because it's water and then very quickly it down scales because the chances of survival
21:25
[SPEAKER_02]: have pancake.
21:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You're looking at something that you have good visibility, your high upper above.
21:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You would see somebody if they were trapped in the water or they would make themselves known.
21:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And as soon as you do that you can downscale.
21:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And that particular one, that second one I was talking about, we flew a helicopter up the canyon side slipping it with observers looking out and down.
21:52
[SPEAKER_02]: and that's the piece that actually meant I had to leave because the downwash of the helicopter is so powerful and it's so chilling that me and my wetsuit haven't been in an out the water for an hour and a half I was that that chilled me to the bone it was hypothermic and I had to get out of there I always tell people to be able to tell you story don't become the story then in enthusiasm and being in a space and go let me get my picture next to the water
22:18
[SPEAKER_02]: or let me go out to this place.
22:20
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of, particularly young men learn by pushing the boundaries.
22:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's an innate thing.
22:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And then a parent says, actually don't do that.
22:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, well, I'm going to go do it.
22:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So there was a recent death in an actual part where a young man walked out in the top of a waterfall and just slipped off.
22:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know what?
22:37
[SPEAKER_02]: People would say, oh, there's stupid, but it's more and not understanding the incredible forces that play with the natural world and how they don't really care, the natural world doesn't care.
22:49
[SPEAKER_02]: it's unforgiving and so when you get pushed into it it's just doing its job going downstream and you're just another piece of flotsam in the water and your margin of recovery your margin to get to a safe point is very very slim at that point so what I always tell people is stamp out further than you think you should is it worth dying for a great photograph
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I just recently learned about the prefrontal cortex and what it does for impulse control.
23:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the part of the brain that makes it kind of say, well, what if this happens or what will be the outcome of that or maybe I should think this through a little bit?
23:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And the strange part about that is that it's not fully developed until mid-twenties.
23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I was a kid, I would hear someone say often, before you just say something, maybe stop and count to ten, or, you know, think about what you're getting ready to say, and that doesn't come naturally.
23:50
[SPEAKER_01]: But as your pre-feronal cortex develops, it becomes a bigger part of how you function to consider the results of what you're going to do before you do it.
24:01
[SPEAKER_01]: When it comes to risk mitigation, sometimes I think all we really need to do is just pause for a second.
24:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead of just being impulsive, right?
24:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Pause for a second and say, how could this turn out of things go wrong?
24:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But I believe that calculated risk is a big part of adventure and really it has to be.
24:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But you can do it in a safe way.
24:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You can mitigate the risk to a large degree and still enjoy yourself incredibly.
24:28
[SPEAKER_01]: But I remember as a young man,
24:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a ledge.
24:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's two hundred feet off the ground and it's kind of slippery and you think, oh, I can make it across that and you just do it.
24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I think after you get to maybe thirty years old, you see that same ledge and you think, maybe that's not the smartest idea.
24:48
[SPEAKER_01]: What happens if, right?
24:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think there's also a piece about, and this sounds like one of those, oh, it was so different in our day, sort of comments, but as a kid, I would leave home on my bicycle, and I would just go out into the local park, and maybe gone for hours doing all this stuff, crashing my bike, kind of learning how to be around people, or maybe I'm a bit further out than I should be right now, and you're learning it,
25:18
[SPEAKER_02]: ultimately a more forgiving environment because it's scaled for that sort of seven year old or eight year old and now people are getting maybe their first taste of the outdoors much later in life they might be they might just got to college or they they might have got their first job now or I'm going to go and look at a national party they they haven't had
25:37
[SPEAKER_02]: eighteen years of developing the kinesthetic awareness of their body and they suddenly go out into these exposed places and their learning stuff they should have learned probably when they were seven or eight.
25:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm intrigued as if there's a movement in Germany where insurers have started working with playground designers and builders to build playgrounds that have a bit more risk.
26:01
[SPEAKER_02]: So people can fall, you know, two meters, a meter and a half inside a net.
26:08
[SPEAKER_02]: But they get the idea of being a bit exposed.
26:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, are you going to be able to do this and how do I get myself out of it?
26:12
[SPEAKER_02]: With the idea that if you condition kids a little earlier to managing themselves in their bodies, that later, the assurance risk is mitigated for a lot of other things.
26:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love the outdoors because the outdoors has its own set of rules and you figure out how to work within them.
26:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And where accidents happen, where we step outside of those.
26:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're working area with a lot of loose rock, when you're moving on it, you're very careful about, oh, am I going to knock a rock down?
26:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Or, but we have a whole bunch of Instagrams of reels.
26:48
[SPEAKER_02]: People picking up big rocks and throwing them off the edge.
26:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, well, people have done that for a long time, but now we have a lot more users of climbers coming up.
26:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's the idea that while you can have your experience, you have a responsibility to not ruin somebody else's.
27:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there's a responsibility piece that we struggle with in society.
27:13
[SPEAKER_02]: when you when you do a trip with people in the backcountry or on a river or wherever you go and you work as a community and you you start to gain some idea of okay here's here's a good way to interact out here that is a wonderful base for working in back in your real life in your life where you're in your home community in your town or what have you and when we lost
27:41
[SPEAKER_02]: the frequency that people were interacting in a natural world with the natural world consequences.
27:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we also lost a little bit of care for each other.
27:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the thing about such a rescue that I love.
27:52
[SPEAKER_02]: In a lot of people's jobs in my job, when I was building this environmental education center, it was twenty years of work.
28:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was a journey of incremental steps to finally being open.
28:05
[SPEAKER_02]: In such a rush, you have this package that has a beginning middle and end.
28:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Where you get the call out on your page, you respond.
28:13
[SPEAKER_02]: You package the person, you work together with this disparate group of people that you're all sort of arriving, you've focused on one thing, you're doing your jobs.
28:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you bring the person out to travel, you get them in the ambulance, you debrief a little and then you go home.
28:26
[SPEAKER_02]: There's this sort of close out and I love the selflessness of such a rescue where you're focused on a single thing as a group and you deliver.
28:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a good metaphor for functionality and society.
28:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of have to interject here.
28:46
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a part of the recording that was not recoverable.
28:49
[SPEAKER_01]: The mousse was talking about how in search and rescue you have a group of people that are working together for a common goal of trying to help somebody else.
28:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's that group working together in some sort of an active service that was just so powerful and creates a metaphor for how people can work together in society for the common good.
29:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Moose was commenting on how our society has become so individualistic that perhaps we've lost something.
29:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps we've lost a little bit of what it means for the group to work together, for the good of one, for the common purpose, or even for the good of all.
29:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard people talking about how our society has really kind of become increasingly self-reliant which might be a good thing but also kind of self-centered or individualistic to the detriment of the group.
29:45
[SPEAKER_01]: In it has, and I don't think that, you know, various social media platforms have necessarily helped because people are competing, get the greatest picture of them doing the greatest thing.
29:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I think it's easy to forget that we're a part of a group, we're part of a bigger society.
30:01
[SPEAKER_01]: When you are focused on a common goal with a group, it's completely different experience than just trying to do your own thing.
30:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you look at the floods in Texas right now, the vast majority of those responders
30:15
[SPEAKER_02]: who are out there probing, digging, trying to figure out where these people who've disappeared are.
30:23
[SPEAKER_02]: They're volunteers.
30:26
[SPEAKER_02]: They aren't being paid.
30:28
[SPEAKER_02]: They're turning up on their own time with their own equipment and they're doing this same beyond themselves.
30:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And that happens every day across the United States in such and rescue and small communities is that's the thing that gives me hope.
30:43
[SPEAKER_02]: is that at a time of need.
30:47
[SPEAKER_01]: We draw together and we work together.
30:49
[SPEAKER_01]: There's there's another aspect of this that I wanted to ask you about when I first started adventuring in in Colorado and this is actually going to age me a little bit, but I have to share it anyway.
31:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether that was kayaking down white water streams or climbing fort tenors or backpacking or just doing day hikes scrambling over the you know the corrects.
31:12
[SPEAKER_01]: At first, cell phones weren't common.
31:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And when people went into the backcountry, they had no way to notify anybody if they needed help.
31:22
[SPEAKER_01]: The only way out was the way you came in or send someone for help, but if you were alone, it was on you.
31:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was an aspect of adventure that I actually cherished because I liked the feeling of self reliance and learning the skill set and the wisdom hopefully to make choices that would allow me to get out of anything I got myself into.
31:45
[SPEAKER_01]: But then came cell phones.
31:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, cell phones didn't work everywhere, often not in Colorado in the wilderness, but at least people had the illusion that they can make a phone call.
31:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a while, I debated, should I take a phone with me or should I leave it in the car?
32:00
[SPEAKER_01]: What caused me to start carrying a phone was that it had a really good camera on it.
32:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, but I still didn't like the idea of being connected
32:11
[SPEAKER_01]: to society when I was trying to get away from the pressures of society at the same time.
32:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But then came things like texting over satellite through a GPS network or something like that and now a lot of the cell phones will do text to satellite and so people literally can call for help from anywhere at any time on the planet.
32:35
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good and it's bad and I'm really curious what your perspective is on that.
32:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's a few things.
32:43
[SPEAKER_02]: The first thing is, it's just a measure of progress.
32:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So in the same breath that we might say, or I don't like the cell phone, I really like my Gore-Tex jacket.
32:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you really want to be tech savvy, let's get some animal hides and build this sort of robust outdoor gear that weighs thousands of pounds and sort of trucks with the wilderness.
33:05
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a product of time.
33:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's to me, it's down to the individual about how they want to use it.
33:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's definitely a percentage, a sizable percentage of people who get themselves in trouble or out there with the phone because they believe they can get themselves out.
33:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And we have to respond.
33:26
[SPEAKER_02]: But the majority of users are using it like a camera.
33:29
[SPEAKER_02]: they're using it in case of a virtual to phone another emergency.
33:33
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not actually that bothered by it.
33:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we had a rescue the other day where a solo climber was able to text in that they were in trouble.
33:44
[SPEAKER_02]: They meant to solo a route, a rope solo and they'd come off of an anchor at the top and gone into territory that they were unable to ascend their rope.
33:55
[SPEAKER_02]: and they would have been just hanging there pretty much in view if you knew where to look and they could have been up there for days before we found them and they would have died because they were in a harness for twenty-four hours and that texting allowed a pretty easy safe rescue and a pretty controlled response so that the ones where people miss use I think is a is a is a lower number
34:22
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's it's down to the individuals if there's a lot of people who do these big pipes like the PCT they wouldn't be going out there if they didn't have a little emergency beacon to help them do it so it's become an agent to an adventure and we're not responding to thousands of callouts we might have dozens of callouts over the whole of the PCT which is thousands of miles right so anything that puts somebody out there
34:47
[SPEAKER_02]: gives it a confidence to go out in an adventure.
34:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay.
34:50
[SPEAKER_02]: My pushback is always going to be, would you know the fundamentals of reading a map when your GPS doesn't work on your phone?
35:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is, that is an area where I would push pretty hard on someone.
35:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So when RRI got rid of all their outdoor programming, that was a real loss to the outdoor community because they were teaching fundamentals, how to camp, how to do LNT, how to use a map and compass.
35:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's that product to people finding it late in life.
35:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I benefited from math and compass because my dad was a navigator in the air force and so loved maps and so I wrote a childhood I would open the map and I would be the navigator in the family car so I love maps and they understand them
35:37
[SPEAKER_02]: and a lot of people discover that, never discover that now because they don't have the spatial awareness because they're running off a Google Maps the whole time.
35:45
[SPEAKER_02]: So it also falls to people to do good mentoring and for people to accept apprenticeship and learn.
35:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And in a self-focused world it's sometimes hard to open yourself up to those learning ones.
36:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I completely agree.
36:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we should let the electronics do everything for us.
36:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, when the battery goes dead, we still need to be able to function, so it's important to learn those skills.
36:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are a couple more questions that come out of this discussion.
36:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that these electronics cause people to get into trouble because they rely on them too much?
36:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And they go places that maybe they're not prepared to be without that help?
36:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Has it increased that false sense of security among people do you think?
36:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it creases their sense of security and they don't realize what a risk they're taking.
36:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I think about rescues that I've done in the past where somebody has jumped out on a rock and they had all that launch speed to get on the rock and they made it easy like yeah I made it and then they're in the middle of the river or they're out in the water in the flow and they realize the rock is a meter square and they can't get the takeoff speed to get back and
36:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and so the foolishness would be to enter the order at that point to try and get back and they get swept away.
37:02
[SPEAKER_02]: The exercise, they suddenly learned good judgment when they stay on the rock for an hour or half till we turn up with a ladder that we shift out and pull them back.
37:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So I, I, I think there's definitely that group that overstep.
37:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think, I, I sailed off shore, but a big boats off the south of England.
37:24
[SPEAKER_02]: and through college and I got to be on a boat with a lot of really good sailors, I was the junior and I got really good hands on experience of working with North Atlantic waves, big waves, big rollers coming through that two and a half thousand miles and then you'll find somebody who buys a boat
37:42
[SPEAKER_02]: and goes okay I'm ready for this and if they're unlucky they get into real trouble they lose the mast and they have to be rescued if they get lucky they go out of the harbour they are aware of my skis you do a quick three one eighty and you head back in and you've got this learning
38:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I was really honored to get to interview John Fielder a couple of times, and the first time I asked him the classic question, you know, tell us about a time that things didn't go right because maybe someone could learn from that, and then they'll be safe instead of making the same mistakes.
38:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And John just quickly said, you know that's not the way it works.
38:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know we have to go out there and make the mistakes.
38:23
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how we learn, right?
38:25
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it they say, Miss?
38:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Wisdom comes with experience and experience comes by doing stupid things or something like that so
38:34
[SPEAKER_02]: it's incredibly like the edge of it I think about as a kid when we would go climbing the teacher would like would say to a forty-year-old I can't you you're in charge and they would belay and a teacher would leave you know and you're like what the hell now because all they got to have that but like we never had an accident because we all took it really seriously I I worked in southern Africa in the in in the calahari
39:03
[SPEAKER_02]: in a school and this really lives in my memory is we lost water at a school and all of the students we had two hundred fifty students they think and they all had to leave
39:16
[SPEAKER_02]: and go back to their villages and the clans got together and they were given like a leader of water, a loaf of bread and then this group that went from twenty plus years old through to like kids that were seven or eight.
39:30
[SPEAKER_02]: These groups were just essentially fan out and head back to their villages and they would walk a day and a half, two days.
39:37
[SPEAKER_02]: and they would walk through lion and leopard country and they'd walk in a hundred and ten degree heat and they would all get back to their village.
39:45
[SPEAKER_02]: They would all come together in that moment and they would all do it.
39:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And so some of the questions that we have are really about, our society should have been disconnected from that level of responsibility as young people to take on a more mature role to take on responsibility.
40:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And once we take home responsibility for ourselves and others, then we can be safer in the outdoors.
40:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a friend of mine has a great story.
40:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We were sitting around talking about like our background in outdoor education and she had been up on the Hudson Bay.
40:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a number of big camps up there that run multi-day hundreds of kilometers, canoeed a sense on these big rivers.
40:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And she was telling the story about being rescued by a whale, twin angel whaleer, and this kid coming out to rescue her in the group.
40:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And another person in the group was sitting there and was like, was that, was that in so, you know, was that in nineteen eighty two or whatever the date was?
40:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And she was like, it was.
40:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And he said, oh, I was that kid.
40:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And he was fourteen years old, his dad ran a big camp up on the Hudson Bay, and he was dispatched to fourteen years old to go and rescue a group of dozen canoeists.
41:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was a different time in place.
41:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like part of the way to build responsibilities expect more of each other.
41:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think good leadership is actually letting people to fulfill their potential
41:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of the things I often told my teenage kids was when you're going somewhere in the car, don't just pull out Google Maps and put in the address and then follow the lady's voice, right?
41:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, take the time to look at the route and memorize the route and see how all the roads fit together and then you put the phone away and you drive it by memory.
41:42
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a skill that so many people have lost.
41:45
[SPEAKER_01]: But it teaches you to navigate and to be self-aware of your location and your surroundings.
41:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Matter of fact, one of my kids were young.
41:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would encourage people to do this because it was just such a fun day.
41:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But we had a large forested property that was near our home.
42:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And I went through the property and I tacked dollar bills onto the trees.
42:09
[SPEAKER_01]: and I marked on a map where I attacked them.
42:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I came back to the kids and I hinted of the map on a compass, and I said, go find the money.
42:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And they had such a fun time doing that.
42:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So much fun.
42:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's whatever works.
42:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's interesting to use the phrase it's a skill lost.
42:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I would actually say it's a skill they never had.
42:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a big difference is that when we're teaching, and if you've lost the skill, you'd see a assumption as you kind of had at some point
42:38
[SPEAKER_02]: and so when you're teaching you trying to draw that back out, actually starting at a base level with most people, that they never had it.
42:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that requires the patient she would have had with a seven to eight-year-old, with a eighteen and twenty-four-year-old, to teach.
42:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying you patronize them, but you need that level of patience to bring people up to a point where they've acquired not mastery but competence.
43:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I like the, and to go back to Southern Africa, we would take this, the cross country team out in the desert and the deserts, it's a case of scrub and it's featureless and it's kind of flat and you drive, we're driving,
43:17
[SPEAKER_02]: eleven to twelve kilometers away from the school and I would always take a crazy route with my land rover because I'd like to test them a little bit and we would get out of the car and it all looks the same the occasion looks the same the sand looks the same they can't see the school and it would go which ways to school
43:34
[SPEAKER_02]: and they would all annorningly, like the eight or ten people who would have, they would all point like straight away, oh it's right in that direction.
43:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And he'd be like, all right, go!
43:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And they would be right.
43:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's because they were picking up on that nuances they'd been immersed in their environment.
43:53
[SPEAKER_02]: They've not lost anything, they've been acquiring it all their lives.
43:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a hat, it's habit.
43:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and again I come back to that point of
44:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Accidents happen through bad luck, through things beyond your control, and a cascade effect of little things happening to put you in a bit as compromised.
44:17
[SPEAKER_02]: The lack of awareness of where you are is often driven by, oh look at how great this view is, or it's driven by, I'm really hungry thirsty, or I'm exhausted, and so they've sort of wandered off of their path.
44:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't as a lot to be learned through other people's experience, not to define what your experience should be, but to the idea of myth, the idea of storytelling to help show you, oh, this is what happened to me and I think this is when I analyzed it, this is kind of what happened.
44:47
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a publication that acts as an American mountaineering.
44:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a great guide.
44:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if you don't climb, read it.
44:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it analyzes the decision making that people are done onto Nali or out in the New River Gorge.
45:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And you see these small incremental things.
45:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Really is it one big thing that have led to this outcome.
45:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we've lost the place of what I would call social storytelling, like sitting around a table or telling yarns, and now it's virtual, it's still out there, it's a little bit different.
45:21
[SPEAKER_02]: We would retell these stories over and over again because they made us laugh because they were so outrageous.
45:26
[SPEAKER_02]: But I realize now, decades later, that myth was a really important my development as a good guide and instructor.
45:34
[SPEAKER_01]: We need more campfire stories today.
45:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and that can't fire story.
45:40
[SPEAKER_02]: The perfect campfire for me is not a awesome image.
45:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually some mosquito bites trying to figure out which way the smoke's going.
45:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And then this outrageous story of someone climbing and just having a total epic and you know what happens afterwards.
46:01
[SPEAKER_02]: We were up in the Canadian Arctic and we broke a boat on day.
46:08
[SPEAKER_02]: one or two we smashed the back of a canoe and so it was leaking and it just sat down a rapid it just hit this wrong and it split the hole and so we had to bail out every three or four minutes we were bailing and we had this moment where one of the things you were considering was the other two boats kept going and my friend and I were going to walk a hundred and fifty miles across country to a bear country to get back
46:34
[SPEAKER_02]: to the sort of town, get back to a place we could be picked up because we were in a remote.
46:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And as it was, we had the expertise in the group and the care to repair the boat.
46:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they shandered it out, they glued it, they repaired it, they taped it.
46:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we were already careful taking it for the rest of the six hundred and twenty five kilometers down the river.
46:57
[SPEAKER_02]: and we sort of got ourselves out of it and we tell that story each time we all get together and we have pictures of us on that expedition because it was a make or break and we made it
47:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, moves.
47:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of funny.
47:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of Hollywood telling us impossible ways or showing us impossible ways to get out of impossible situations, people used to sit around and share real life encounters and experiences like you just did.
47:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And from that, people learned real skills and ways to get out of these rough situations.
47:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But speaking of stories, we have to talk about this.
47:33
[SPEAKER_01]: You have two books and a third on the way.
47:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So tell us about your books.
47:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So I have a book called Searching, which is subtitle finding purpose, laughter and distraction through search and rescue, which is a memoir of my time in Search and Rescue.
47:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not about hanging off a cliff, it's not about doing crazy stuff, it's more about the nuts and bolts of what happens on really ordinary rescues and everything from going out to do a recovery in the river on some of you's drown and what goes on with that through to
48:08
[SPEAKER_02]: working with somebody who's going to try to end their life on the edge of a cliff.
48:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's, I wrote it in parts to work through some of the trauma I have been exposed to and to brain dump it and really get it at the open to figure out what the impact was.
48:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And my other book is when accidents happen, which is a crisis communication guide.
48:28
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the lead roles I do in the national part service across the federal services, family liaison officer work, which is the instant command as representative
48:37
[SPEAKER_02]: to the family when we're doing a search or recovery.
48:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And you interface on that very emotional level to give the family the support they need and understand what's going on and provide the installation for the mission to be carried out.
48:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've done about a hundred fatalities nationally where I've been on call to help families through that.
49:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And when accidents happen is the text for my training program.
49:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I was going to say that the searching has some lighter moments in it.
49:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've done some really fun stuff over the years.
49:12
[SPEAKER_02]: The one accident happening is that book that somebody's like, how would I get involved?
49:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe I'm not a technician, but I got really good into personal skills.
49:21
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really good example of how you can help a search and rescue to play these, play these strengths.
49:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a bit unusual in the world of family liaison, and I have a extensive technical background.
49:32
[SPEAKER_02]: and we tend to have people coming in from a counselling or therapeutic background to take this role, but we're working hard on get technicians in there because bringing the nuts and bolts and understanding how a certain rescue may happen a mission play out.
49:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's nice to have somebody in the room who understands flight time or understands pumpkin time when a helicopter can no longer fly.
49:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But what happens with the rate of spread on a fire?
49:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So all of those pieces go on.
50:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, yeah, knowing how to communicate during really, really traumatic times to help people.
50:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
50:09
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an important skill and it's cool that you've written books to help train with that.
50:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we've all come across accidents on the highway, for instance, and not known really what to do, not sure if we could get involved, not sure what to say or how to help.
50:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I think we just need the voice of experience from someone like you who's been through so much of it.
50:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, moves, thank you very much for your time and for writing these books from your many years of collecting these experiences and stories that it's a real gift.
50:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I want to say thank you for all of us for the gift that you've given when accidents happen, searching and serious face.
50:49
[SPEAKER_01]: and, uh, news thank you so much for your time today and for the fun stories.
50:53
[SPEAKER_01]: For all the listeners out there, until the next show, please do get out there and have some fun, but plan ahead and do it safely.