Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Surviving Ice, Crime and Chaos: Tom’s Second Chance | Tom de Souza

Transcript

Surviving Ice, Crime and Chaos: Tom’s Second Chance | Tom de Souza · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appoche production. This podcast includes references to drug use, youth suicide,
0:13
Speaker 1: and violent crime. It's not recommended for younger audiences and
0:17
Speaker 1: listener discretion is advised. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand.
0:25
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Adam Shand. If you enjoy our content,
0:28
Speaker 1: please subscribe, like, and share to support more independent crime journalism.
0:33
Speaker 1: Youth crime is the hot issue in Australia right now.
0:36
Speaker 2: Victoria is cracking down on youth offenders, with children as
0:40
Speaker 2: young as fourteen facing the possibility of being jailed for
0:43
Speaker 2: life for violent crime.
0:46
Speaker 1: Day after day, we read stories of angry, disaffected young
0:49
Speaker 1: people committing violent, senseless crimes, often while under the influence
0:53
Speaker 1: of drugs like methamphetamine or ice.
0:56
Speaker 2: Destroying families, causing carnage on our roads, and murder in
1:00
Speaker 2: our homes.
1:02
Speaker 1: This is a bleak story of family breakdown, alienation from
1:06
Speaker 1: education and employment, and offenders consigned to a revolving door
1:10
Speaker 1: of the criminal justice system.
1:13
Speaker 2: Ice is ripping through rural and regional areas, devastating entire towns.
1:19
Speaker 1: But today I'm not here to wring my hands and
1:21
Speaker 1: add to this council of despair, because I've witnessed the
1:25
Speaker 1: miraculous possibilities of hope and redemption. I met my guest
1:29
Speaker 1: ten years ago when he was turning his life around
1:32
Speaker 1: from is addiction and crime. Back then, I made a
1:36
Speaker 1: podcast with Tom Desuza called Meth Destruction, which detailed his
1:41
Speaker 1: descent into that hellish world. Fortunately meth did not destroy Tom,
1:46
Speaker 1: but it did come very close. He got his life
1:49
Speaker 1: back on track and is now making a documentary film
1:53
Speaker 1: about riding a motorcycle across Indonesia. He's living a life
1:57
Speaker 1: of grace and possibility that he could scarcely have imagined
2:00
Speaker 1: back in the dark days of his early teens. And
2:04
Speaker 1: it's my great pleasure to speak with you again, Tom Adam,
2:08
Speaker 1: how's it going? Amazing? What comes to mind is that
2:12
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan's song A Hard Range is going to fall
2:14
Speaker 1: on the line where have you been, my blue eyed son?
2:18
Speaker 1: And it really applies to your journey. You're living in
2:22
Speaker 1: an extraordinary life now. Like I said, could you have
2:26
Speaker 1: imagined where you are today back in those early days.
2:29
Speaker 3: Back in those days, I remember my drug dealer telling
2:32
Speaker 3: me if anybody made it to twenty five, you're a survivor.
2:34
Speaker 3: There weren't many of us who made it past twenty five,
2:37
Speaker 3: So no, not at all. You know, if you ask
2:39
Speaker 3: me back then, I'd be surprised to know that I'd
2:42
Speaker 3: even still be alive.
2:44
Speaker 1: Because looking at you, I don't see any of the effects.
2:47
Speaker 1: I mean, you describe yourself as a junkie before. You
2:50
Speaker 1: don't look like that, you don't act like that. You've
2:52
Speaker 1: really managed to get through this on the surface unscathed. Obviously,
2:56
Speaker 1: these things do leave impacts. But I guess you've been
2:59
Speaker 1: pretty lucky.
3:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, I have been lucky, and I guess
3:05
Speaker 3: the version of success I've been able to achieve. I
3:07
Speaker 3: actually went in a couple of years ago and saw
3:10
Speaker 3: a drug counselor who was my counselor when I was
3:12
Speaker 3: going through rehap and youth detox and that kind of thing,
3:15
Speaker 3: and she said, it's actually quite remarkable what's happened, because
3:19
Speaker 3: oftentimes success for a lot of people who came out
3:23
Speaker 3: of drug addiction it's just the ability to hold down
3:26
Speaker 3: a job or a relationship. And yeah, I guess I've
3:29
Speaker 3: been able to take it to the next level and
3:30
Speaker 3: build a pretty extraordinary life, which I'm really grateful for.
3:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is extraordinary. And I think we're often sold
3:38
Speaker 1: a message that is somewhat a miracle story that life
3:44
Speaker 1: after drugs is going to be perfect if you do
3:46
Speaker 1: these things and you stay on the program. But of
3:49
Speaker 1: course life still intervenes. There's still the problems of life
3:53
Speaker 1: to deal with, and getting off drugs and out of
3:56
Speaker 1: crime is just one more stop on the journey. Do
4:00
Speaker 1: you feel like that that you still sort of a
4:01
Speaker 1: work in progress? Things are still happening, You're still sorting
4:04
Speaker 1: out life for sure.
4:06
Speaker 3: That's life, isn't it? You know? That's life for everybody.
4:08
Speaker 3: Life isn't easy. Life is hard, and there are a
4:11
Speaker 3: lot of trials and challenges and things that everybody goes
4:15
Speaker 3: through on the way. And I guess for me, as
4:18
Speaker 3: a child and as a teenager, drugs for my escape
4:21
Speaker 3: from that and my means of coping with that. But
4:23
Speaker 3: I learned a lot of hard lessons at a pretty
4:25
Speaker 3: young age. Whereas I think some of the challenges and
4:28
Speaker 3: struggles in life, I think a lot of people go
4:30
Speaker 3: through life maybe not being able to deal with those
4:32
Speaker 3: things and finding other escapes, whether that's in work, in sex,
4:35
Speaker 3: or alcoholism, or I guess everybody has their own kind
4:40
Speaker 3: of form of escape. And I think I learned a
4:43
Speaker 3: lot of these lessons at a young age, and that's
4:45
Speaker 3: equipped me pretty well.
4:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, I won't start on my various additions and passions
4:49
Speaker 1: and obsessions which I've used to get through nearly forty
4:53
Speaker 1: years of journalism. And we're actually here in Balley. So
4:56
Speaker 1: if you do hear motorbikes in the background, scooters and things,
4:58
Speaker 1: I'm not going to stop with them because there's just
5:00
Speaker 1: too many of them. If you'll have to put up
5:02
Speaker 1: with the listeners. But I've been giving you a hand
5:04
Speaker 1: with your film, and part of the exercise was to
5:06
Speaker 1: make an outline of all the material you have shot
5:08
Speaker 1: over nearly two years and then cut it up into
5:10
Speaker 1: bits and put it on the floor. And I was
5:12
Speaker 1: looking at your life on the floor, which has included
5:15
Speaker 1: all the dark times, how you got into drugs and crime,
5:18
Speaker 1: and how you've got out and where your journey's taken you.
5:22
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning of that, because your
5:25
Speaker 1: story begins in a middle class family in England with
5:28
Speaker 1: all the advantages, but then things began to go wrong.
5:32
Speaker 1: Tell us a bit about that.
5:33
Speaker 3: I had a pretty privileged life, was one of four kids.
5:38
Speaker 3: Dad worked a good job, Mum worked as a vet
5:40
Speaker 3: and I kind of grew up having all the modern
5:43
Speaker 3: day trappings. I guess, you know, I had a good education.
5:46
Speaker 3: I took French lessons and swimming lessons and tennis lessons,
5:49
Speaker 3: and as far as I knew, it was part of
5:51
Speaker 3: a happy, unified family.
5:55
Speaker 1: But then things began to go wrong. Dad was working
5:57
Speaker 1: in the financial industry. The stock market crash came and
6:01
Speaker 1: you guys, return to your family's native home, Perth, and
6:06
Speaker 1: you struggled to fit in. You've never found Perth was
6:08
Speaker 1: home even to this day, and cracks began to appear
6:12
Speaker 1: in that middle class facade.
6:14
Speaker 3: What happened, Well, I think, you know, it's a pretty
6:17
Speaker 3: difficult thing to mobilize a family of six people and
6:20
Speaker 3: move them across to the other side of the world.
6:22
Speaker 3: And I think Mum and Dad had this idea of
6:23
Speaker 3: how things might look on the reality turned out to
6:26
Speaker 3: be really different. Dad struggled to find work, I struggled
6:30
Speaker 3: to fit in, and I guess I felt different from
6:35
Speaker 3: everybody else, and I found myself in a place where
6:38
Speaker 3: that difference wasn't really celebrated or encouraged, and as a result,
6:42
Speaker 3: I started to hate myself and be unhappy with who
6:45
Speaker 3: I was and to feel uncomfortable in my own skin.
6:48
Speaker 3: So I set about trying to destroy myself literally.
6:52
Speaker 1: And you're a gifted student, You've got a scholarship to
6:55
Speaker 1: a prestigious school. You didn't fit in. You saw your
6:58
Speaker 1: name up on the on a board in gold letters,
7:01
Speaker 1: and that was a source of bullying for you. Your
7:03
Speaker 1: response was to try to burn the school down.
7:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. That was how much I hated
7:08
Speaker 3: that place. You know, I went to the school on
7:10
Speaker 3: the weekend. I was just skateboarding with a friend. I
7:12
Speaker 3: didn't go there with that specific intention, but I was
7:15
Speaker 3: there at the school, and you know, I guess all
7:17
Speaker 3: these visceral feelings just I saw a pile of leaves
7:20
Speaker 3: on the veranda outside the headmaster's office, and yeah, all
7:23
Speaker 3: these feelings just compelled me to go and hold a
7:27
Speaker 3: cannadioda and a lighter up to the leaves. And yeah,
7:29
Speaker 3: luckily the grounds keeper saw us and chased us away
7:33
Speaker 3: before anything went up in flames. But I wasn't happy
7:36
Speaker 3: at that place. I didn't like it. And I guess,
7:40
Speaker 3: like I said, I was uncomfortable in my own skin,
7:42
Speaker 3: and I sought solitude out on the margins of society.
7:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you went a good crook because you didn't
7:47
Speaker 1: look for the CCTV camera, which gave you up straight away,
7:51
Speaker 1: so you were immediately turned in And that was the
7:53
Speaker 1: beginning of the end for you at that school. I
7:55
Speaker 1: think you were expelled went it.
7:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I was expelled and I went to eight
7:59
Speaker 3: or nine different schools in total, so I moved around
8:02
Speaker 3: a lot, and there was definitely a feeling of dislocation,
8:05
Speaker 3: and I think, you know, there was a sense of
8:07
Speaker 3: instability at school, and there was a sense of instability
8:10
Speaker 3: at home as well. Mum and Dad's relationship was starting
8:12
Speaker 3: to get pretty rocky. Dad had gone to work in
8:15
Speaker 3: Hong Kong and then come back, and we also weren't
8:17
Speaker 3: really sure of our future in Perth. We'd just moved
8:19
Speaker 3: from London. We'd been back in Perth through about three years,
8:21
Speaker 3: and there was talk of moving again to Sydney or
8:24
Speaker 3: Melbourne or somewhere else. And I didn't really feel a
8:29
Speaker 3: sense of stability. And I moved through all these schools
8:31
Speaker 3: and it started to think, well, what's the point of
8:33
Speaker 3: making friends and investing in this place when we might
8:36
Speaker 3: just move again.
8:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're looking for a sense of ease and
8:40
Speaker 1: comfort within yourself. You discover marijuana, You smoke a bit
8:43
Speaker 1: that for a while, and then you decided to go
8:45
Speaker 1: on to caffeine pills, of all things, and you and
8:48
Speaker 1: your mate steal from the supermarket a whole bunch of
8:50
Speaker 1: cap I don't if caffeine pills are still available, don't
8:52
Speaker 1: go looking for them if you listen to this podcast.
8:54
Speaker 1: But see you crush all these pills up. You know,
8:57
Speaker 1: white powder, I don't know didn't have any effect on
8:59
Speaker 1: m Sure it would have. But and your mother finds
9:02
Speaker 1: the bag of white powder hidden in a drum kit
9:04
Speaker 1: at home. And I don't blame any parent for being
9:07
Speaker 1: alarmed when they think their kids falling into drug addiction
9:11
Speaker 1: or hard drugs and so forth. But she did make
9:14
Speaker 1: a telling decision because rather than deal with it within
9:16
Speaker 1: the family, what did she do?
9:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, she called the police. This was sort of two
9:21
Speaker 3: thousand and eight. It was kind of around the time
9:23
Speaker 3: when ice was just starting to sort of become prolific
9:26
Speaker 3: in Perth and in Australia. And I'd heard on the
9:29
Speaker 3: radio that ice was being made from these cold and
9:32
Speaker 3: flu pills which kind of had pseudoeffortrine as a base ingredient.
9:35
Speaker 3: You know, I sort of thought, oh, well, you know,
9:37
Speaker 3: if I crushed them up and put them in with
9:38
Speaker 3: the caffeine pills, maybe that'll have some effect as well.
9:41
Speaker 3: And so yeah, she called the police, and the police
9:44
Speaker 3: came and did a kind of preliminary test on them,
9:46
Speaker 3: and obviously, because it had the base ingredient of methamphetamine,
9:49
Speaker 3: it responded to the test. And so they charged me
9:51
Speaker 3: with dealing ice and sent me to juvenile attention. And
9:55
Speaker 3: my parents were at their wits end. They didn't know
9:57
Speaker 3: what to do. They sought the guidance of the police,
9:59
Speaker 3: who they figured were experienced in these kinds of things.
10:02
Speaker 3: But I think juvenile at tension had the complete opposite
10:05
Speaker 3: effect to what was intended. It instilled in me this
10:08
Speaker 3: hatred of authority. It made me even more angry, and
10:11
Speaker 3: it told me that society rejected me and didn't accept me.
10:15
Speaker 1: And your parents had given you up, lagged you to
10:17
Speaker 1: the cops, and there you are, and you go on
10:19
Speaker 1: from scholarship student to juvenile detention in Range View in Perth.
10:25
Speaker 1: That first night is burned in your memory.
10:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is. It was a pretty horrific place.
10:31
Speaker 3: You know, I was putting this observation cell. It's about
10:34
Speaker 3: eight or nine cells in a semicircle around this kind
10:37
Speaker 3: of central control room or with kind of like a fishbowl,
10:39
Speaker 3: I guess, or with this you know, big floor to
10:41
Speaker 3: ceiling perspex window. And there was blood and graffiti and
10:45
Speaker 3: kind of dried toilet paper all over the wall. Lights
10:49
Speaker 3: were on twenty four hours a day, and the aircom
10:51
Speaker 3: was turned up full bast and just the screaming and
10:53
Speaker 3: the yelling and the shouting coming from the other cells,
10:56
Speaker 3: and there was a girl in the cell next to
10:58
Speaker 3: me who's just smashing her head against the wall until
11:00
Speaker 3: she cracked the glass. And the next morning we was
11:03
Speaker 3: sort of woken up and strip searched and showered and
11:07
Speaker 3: got prepared to go to court. And I remember sitting
11:10
Speaker 3: in this little two by three meters sell with about
11:12
Speaker 3: ten other people that I think I was one of
11:15
Speaker 3: only two white kids in that cell. All of these
11:17
Speaker 3: other guys in there were quite a bit older and
11:20
Speaker 3: violent criminals as well, carthieves and robbers, and you know,
11:25
Speaker 3: they were sitting there telling these stories. I could hardly
11:28
Speaker 3: even understand the whether that they spoke and how well
11:30
Speaker 3: were you I was thirteen thirteen.
11:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, little Lord Fauntleroy. Yeah, thrown in with the hardened
11:34
Speaker 1: criminals at thirteen.
11:36
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you know, all of a sudden, I had
11:37
Speaker 3: to try and adapt myself to this environment and this
11:40
Speaker 3: is a place that I'd found myself and I had
11:42
Speaker 3: to try and fit in.
11:43
Speaker 1: And how long was that stint?
11:45
Speaker 3: That was only one night. I was bailed. I was
11:47
Speaker 3: bowed to my parents. I think they thought that by
11:49
Speaker 3: working with the court they might be able to try
11:51
Speaker 3: and take back some kind of semblance of control that
11:53
Speaker 3: they hadn't before. But going to juvenile attention had the
11:56
Speaker 3: complete opposite effect to what was intended.
11:59
Speaker 1: And they were certainly working hard they were doing with them.
12:01
Speaker 1: And that's the thing. I don't blame it. Like I
12:02
Speaker 1: said before, I don't blame any parent going through the
12:05
Speaker 1: for the first time looking at the range of solutions
12:07
Speaker 1: open to them and realizing it's beyond their understanding, and
12:11
Speaker 1: they look for institutional solutions. The next one was drug rehab,
12:16
Speaker 1: which ironically was a window to hard drugs and criminal
12:21
Speaker 1: connections which would sustain you over the next several years.
12:24
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, that's right. I've breached my boil conditions and
12:26
Speaker 3: was sent back to juvenile's attention sort of two or
12:29
Speaker 3: three more times in the couple of months after that
12:31
Speaker 3: first night, and eventually there was no one in my
12:35
Speaker 3: family who could really be responsible for me or take
12:38
Speaker 3: care of me. Everybody just thought I was too out
12:39
Speaker 3: of control, and so I was sent to go and
12:43
Speaker 3: stand this drug rehab. For three months, I lived in
12:45
Speaker 3: this house in one of the outer suburbs of Perth.
12:48
Speaker 3: I was surrounded by older, more experienced drug users, and
12:51
Speaker 3: you know, they became like my family in a sense.
12:54
Speaker 3: Had to try and adapt myself, to make myself fit
12:57
Speaker 3: into that place and try and find a sense of
12:59
Speaker 3: belonging there. And I did that by listening to their
13:01
Speaker 3: stories and the things that they'd been through and trying
13:04
Speaker 3: to copy them and repo them and pretend that I
13:06
Speaker 3: was one of them as well. And you pretend for
13:08
Speaker 3: long enough to try and be someone, eventually you become
13:11
Speaker 3: that person. And that's what happened.
13:13
Speaker 1: And these are your formative years. I mean, you've got
13:15
Speaker 1: no other example. You're trying to make your way.
13:18
Speaker 3: What happened next I got out of drug rehab I
13:20
Speaker 3: think just after my fourteenth birthday. My parents were divorced
13:25
Speaker 3: not long after, so.
13:26
Speaker 1: They're busy with their own issues now, and they've got
13:29
Speaker 1: this troublesome child, Tommy. We've also got the three other
13:31
Speaker 1: children to look after and to deal with. Yeah, so
13:34
Speaker 1: a lot was going on.
13:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, I went looking for drugs. I had the means
13:38
Speaker 3: to go and find them now, and you know, I'd
13:40
Speaker 3: heard all these stories about them. I was curious about them,
13:42
Speaker 3: and I wanted to know what it was all about.
13:44
Speaker 3: You know, I'd spent three months in there listening to
13:46
Speaker 3: these kids tell stories about getting high on ice and
13:49
Speaker 3: going out and stealing cars and all these kinds of
13:52
Speaker 3: things that they made sound really exciting, and Sanator Hall
13:55
Speaker 3: a lot better than what I was going back to
13:57
Speaker 3: where I was. So I was curious and I went
13:59
Speaker 3: looking for it.
14:00
Speaker 1: And you found it how I found it.
14:02
Speaker 3: I started with drugs like heroin, an oxyconton and these things.
14:05
Speaker 3: I didn't really like it. It made me sick, it
14:08
Speaker 3: made me its year. It wasn't really what I was
14:10
Speaker 3: looking for. I enjoyed the rush that I got from it,
14:12
Speaker 3: but not really the high. You know, I kind of
14:14
Speaker 3: enjoyed the first five minutes after injecting the drug, but
14:17
Speaker 3: then afterwards when you sort of started to feel a
14:19
Speaker 3: bit stoned. I didn't really like that. I didn't really
14:22
Speaker 3: want to go to sleep and numb myself. I wanted
14:24
Speaker 3: to kind of bring myself up out of myself. And
14:27
Speaker 3: then through a friend of a friend, I was introduced
14:29
Speaker 3: to another drug dealer who was twenty years older than me,
14:33
Speaker 3: and he introduced me to ice and started schooling me
14:36
Speaker 3: in crime.
14:36
Speaker 1: And he was like your fagin to your all over twist. Yeah,
14:40
Speaker 1: and he was an odd character. He was obviously been
14:43
Speaker 1: right through the mill of criminality and drugs and mental
14:46
Speaker 1: disorder as well.
14:47
Speaker 3: He had. He'd been injecting ice for twenty years. He
14:50
Speaker 3: was obsessed with stal wars figures and skulls which used
14:52
Speaker 3: to swap for ice. And he schooled me in crime
14:56
Speaker 3: and this criminal mentality and taught me how to deal
14:59
Speaker 3: drugs and also how to survive in this world. Like
15:00
Speaker 3: I guess he took me under his wing in a sense,
15:03
Speaker 3: and maybe, you know, I thought he had the kind
15:05
Speaker 3: of sense of duty to protect me or help me
15:08
Speaker 3: in this world of violence and crime. And yeah, he
15:11
Speaker 3: scored me and showed me the ropes.
15:13
Speaker 1: I in no way condone this sort of drug use,
15:16
Speaker 1: but I think it's true to say that individuals find
15:20
Speaker 1: the drug that best suits their needs and for whatever reason,
15:24
Speaker 1: ice was that for you? Why?
15:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, people definitely go looking for particular drugs for particular reasons.
15:30
Speaker 3: And I definitely suffered from a lack of self confidence.
15:33
Speaker 3: I didn't like the person that I was, and I
15:38
Speaker 3: brought me up and out of that, and it kind
15:40
Speaker 3: of instilled this false kind of confidence in me and
15:43
Speaker 3: made me feel on top of the world, and it
15:44
Speaker 3: made me feel good about myself. That that was really
15:47
Speaker 3: the addiction for me. That was what I was really
15:50
Speaker 3: looking for.
15:51
Speaker 1: And you were injecting it, which is not usually the
15:54
Speaker 1: way that young people are introduced to it. They tend
15:56
Speaker 1: to smoke it and so forth. But what was the
15:58
Speaker 1: difference with injecting it?
16:00
Speaker 3: Things escalated pretty quickly. Things escalated really quickly with me.
16:03
Speaker 3: And that's I think the sensation that you get from
16:07
Speaker 3: injecting the drug is far more potent and powerful. I've
16:10
Speaker 3: never experienced anything else in my life like that. That's
16:13
Speaker 3: so instant and just you know, I think smoking it,
16:16
Speaker 3: that sensation is definitely more addictive. But I think the
16:19
Speaker 3: actual ritual of smoking ice is a more repetitive kind
16:24
Speaker 3: of ritual. You know, you continue smoking it and smoking
16:26
Speaker 3: and smoking it, and you know, you almost get addicted
16:29
Speaker 3: to just the smoking of it, whereas injecting it, you
16:31
Speaker 3: have one shot and that's it and you're good for
16:33
Speaker 3: another eight hours, and you know, you spend that other
16:35
Speaker 3: eight hours sort of chasing enough money to go and
16:37
Speaker 3: get more. And that, for me, that was a real
16:39
Speaker 3: part of the addiction, That whole ritual and the chase,
16:43
Speaker 3: the thrill of the chase, you know, the ice, the
16:45
Speaker 3: drug itself was just something that kind of kept that
16:48
Speaker 3: whole show going.
16:49
Speaker 1: And Madow, as you said, was now showing you how
16:51
Speaker 1: to get money and the crimes that would achieve that.
16:55
Speaker 1: For you, what were you up to in terms of
16:56
Speaker 1: your criminal pursuits.
16:57
Speaker 3: I was selling drugs and you know, using the profits
17:00
Speaker 3: to buy ice. I was stealing a lot. I was
17:04
Speaker 3: just basically getting money however I could. And I didn't
17:06
Speaker 3: really care who I stole it off, or where it
17:09
Speaker 3: came from, or what I was doing. I just all
17:10
Speaker 3: I really thought about was that next shot from your family. Yeah,
17:14
Speaker 3: I stole from people I loved and who were close
17:17
Speaker 3: to me.
17:18
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that now?
17:20
Speaker 3: Pretty ashamed? That's not something I'm proud of. It's something
17:25
Speaker 3: I regret because.
17:28
Speaker 1: This is the process that occurs where people fall to
17:31
Speaker 1: this addiction and steal from family, and that creates more
17:35
Speaker 1: distance and mistrust between the family, which actually accentuates all
17:38
Speaker 1: the issues going on.
17:39
Speaker 3: Well that's right, Yeah, it just kind of perpetuates the problem,
17:42
Speaker 3: you know, you know, it makes you feel even worse
17:44
Speaker 3: about yourself. And because you feel worse about yourself, I
17:47
Speaker 3: would go and try and block those feelings out in
17:50
Speaker 3: the only way in which I knew how to deal
17:51
Speaker 3: with them, which is by taking more drugs. And it's
17:53
Speaker 3: just this kind of cycle that kept going around and
17:55
Speaker 3: round and round and faster and faster, and you know,
17:58
Speaker 3: there's no real way of stopping it.
18:00
Speaker 1: Things became violent as well. You ripped off some guys
18:05
Speaker 1: with some drugs that weren't drugs.
18:07
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was exposed to violence from a pretty young age,
18:09
Speaker 3: and at first time I was in juvenile attension, I
18:11
Speaker 3: was exposed to a lot of violence, and I guess
18:14
Speaker 3: that became something that informed the way that I behave
18:18
Speaker 3: and the way that I reacted to things. That world
18:21
Speaker 3: is a pretty violent world as well. The first time
18:24
Speaker 3: I really got bashed was in a range of Juvenile
18:27
Speaker 3: Detention Center. I was thirteen years old. I've got a
18:29
Speaker 3: ping pong table smashed over my head for not really
18:32
Speaker 3: any reason at all, just because I was on the
18:34
Speaker 3: oval laughing with the mate and this other guy had
18:37
Speaker 3: broken the rules and lost his power for the evening
18:39
Speaker 3: and he sort of took it out on me. You know,
18:42
Speaker 3: he had to go at me on the oval and
18:43
Speaker 3: said I'll wait until we get back to the unit,
18:45
Speaker 3: and I kind of didn't think anything of it. And
18:49
Speaker 3: you know, a couple of hours later, I'm sitting there
18:50
Speaker 3: in the unit waiting to play ping pong and him
18:52
Speaker 3: and three of his cousins come running around the corner
18:54
Speaker 3: and just picked me up and threw me on top
18:56
Speaker 3: of this ping pong table and smashed it over my
18:58
Speaker 3: head for no reason at all. Really, I'm just sitting
19:00
Speaker 3: there laughing with a mate, having a good time, and
19:02
Speaker 3: you know, suddenly I was exposed to this world of violence.
19:07
Speaker 3: And violence, I guess, is a language that knows no
19:10
Speaker 3: logic or no reason. There's no real way to respond
19:14
Speaker 3: to it other than with that language of violence itself.
19:17
Speaker 3: And that was something that I had to learn and adopt.
19:21
Speaker 1: And you were involved in violent incidents that you initiated.
19:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there are a few robberies. And yeah, I think,
19:28
Speaker 3: like a lot of young men, I had a lot
19:29
Speaker 3: of things confused. Kindness could be easily confused for weakness,
19:33
Speaker 3: and I had fear confused with respect as well. And
19:36
Speaker 3: I think, you know, that was how that world worked.
19:38
Speaker 3: If people were afraid of you, that was kind of
19:40
Speaker 3: considered as respect. It's, oh, you know, this guy's so
19:43
Speaker 3: and so, and nobody wants to go near him, and
19:45
Speaker 3: he's you know, he's a big figure. And yeah, that
19:48
Speaker 3: was that was something that I had confused, Like a
19:50
Speaker 3: lot of young misguided men.
19:52
Speaker 1: You're moving down this path and you're not happy about it.
19:55
Speaker 1: You're not happy in any sense. You're becoming more depressed
19:58
Speaker 1: and anxious. You know, the more drugs you have, the
20:01
Speaker 1: more you have to have. And you thall me were
20:03
Speaker 1: quite of steep depression.
20:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I've got to admit it's deep within.
20:07
Speaker 3: I wasn't happy, I wasn't content, I wasn't fulfilled. But
20:11
Speaker 3: this life was also exciting as well, and it kind
20:15
Speaker 3: of presented, I guess, something of an antidote to that depression.
20:19
Speaker 3: I mean, it definitely perpetuated as well because of the
20:22
Speaker 3: drugs that I was taking, the things that they were doing.
20:24
Speaker 3: That was no solution for the way I felt. But
20:26
Speaker 3: it was also exciting. It was an adventure and it
20:29
Speaker 3: took me away from the way that I felt. And
20:30
Speaker 3: it wasn't just the drugs that I did that. It
20:32
Speaker 3: was the lifestyle that went along with that too. You know.
20:34
Speaker 3: It was going out and stealing things and staying out
20:38
Speaker 3: late and seeing what kinds of trouble we could get
20:40
Speaker 3: ourselves into and how we could source money to go
20:43
Speaker 3: and get our next shot of ice or Yeah, in
20:46
Speaker 3: a way, it was. It was its own kind of
20:48
Speaker 3: sordid adventure, I guess.
20:49
Speaker 1: And you're becoming a better crook because you weren't getting
20:52
Speaker 1: caught as much and you weren't doing more juvenile attention.
20:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was being schooled in that, so I understood
20:59
Speaker 3: how to be a better criminal. And you know, things
21:01
Speaker 3: had happened and I'd learned from that experience. Is one
21:03
Speaker 3: example where I ripped these guys off for an amount
21:06
Speaker 3: of drugs and a week later they set me up
21:08
Speaker 3: in the park and bashed me and stripped me of
21:10
Speaker 3: everything and broke my jaw with bricks and star pickets
21:13
Speaker 3: and ride and pushed back over my face. And I
21:15
Speaker 3: spent the next six weeks eating out of a straw,
21:18
Speaker 3: and Madaw kind of tried to school me in a
21:20
Speaker 3: way that taught me how to be better. He taught
21:22
Speaker 3: me how to be different and how to avoid those
21:24
Speaker 3: things from happening, and what I could do next time.
21:26
Speaker 3: And yeah, I started, Yeah, I started learning from those things,
21:30
Speaker 3: and I guess becoming a better criminal one soon.
21:33
Speaker 1: Rain's falling now outside, it's certainly a steamy, wet day
21:36
Speaker 1: here in Bali. How did you see the future. If
21:40
Speaker 1: you did see the future, were you just living day
21:41
Speaker 1: to day in a kind of almost an animalistic survival mode.
21:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just reacting to urges and instincts. Really,
21:48
Speaker 3: I didn't think about the future. I didn't have any
21:50
Speaker 3: goals or ambitions or long term plans or you know.
21:54
Speaker 3: All I cared about was that particular moment and what
21:57
Speaker 3: I could get in my lungs or in my arm
21:59
Speaker 3: or Yeah, the future wasn't really a prospect for me
22:02
Speaker 3: at all.
22:03
Speaker 1: And what was happening with your relationship with family through this?
22:06
Speaker 3: It completely fallen apart. My mum and dad both had
22:09
Speaker 3: pretty different ways of responding to it. Mum's I guess,
22:13
Speaker 3: always been a pretty determined person and someone who's tried
22:16
Speaker 3: to grab the problem and sort of try and steer
22:19
Speaker 3: it in the right direction, whereas my dad was a
22:22
Speaker 3: bit more hands off.
22:23
Speaker 1: You know.
22:23
Speaker 3: He knew that there wasn't a lot that he could do,
22:25
Speaker 3: and I guess he tried to keep me close and
22:27
Speaker 3: maybe try and guide me back down, try and guide
22:30
Speaker 3: me down to rock bottom so it'd be there to
22:31
Speaker 3: help me push back up once I was there. But
22:34
Speaker 3: I guess deep in this hole and just kept digging
22:37
Speaker 3: this hole deeper, and no matter how much people tried
22:40
Speaker 3: to reach down and help pull me out, didn't want
22:44
Speaker 3: the help. I wouldn't accept their help. I was stuck.
22:47
Speaker 1: I remember your father telling me that he dreamt or
22:51
Speaker 1: imagined himself standing at the edge of your grave.
22:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, her dad did say that to me once, and
22:58
Speaker 3: I think Mum said that she kind of always knew
23:01
Speaker 3: that I would be okay, And Dad said he felt
23:03
Speaker 3: a similar way as well, up until that point where
23:06
Speaker 3: I had that dream. And I think he got to
23:08
Speaker 3: a point where he started to become really afraid.
23:12
Speaker 1: And you were becoming afraid or depressed to the point
23:15
Speaker 1: where the adventure was souring, and you also tried to
23:19
Speaker 1: take your own life.
23:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I did. I guess three incidents I can
23:24
Speaker 3: remember that were really pivotal moments in this I guess
23:27
Speaker 3: that made me understand that I needed to change my life.
23:31
Speaker 3: The first was a psychotic episode. I'd been awake for
23:35
Speaker 3: ten days on ice and went running around the streets
23:38
Speaker 3: with a meat cleaver, chasing somebody who wasn't there. And
23:41
Speaker 3: the second, Yeah, I was trying to change but couldn't
23:44
Speaker 3: do it. It was all too hard, and so I tried
23:46
Speaker 3: to hang myself off the beam in my mum's garage,
23:49
Speaker 3: and the beam snapped out of the wall as I
23:51
Speaker 3: was hanging.
23:52
Speaker 1: We talked about this this morning, and I could see
23:55
Speaker 1: that it came back to you in a very visceral way.
23:57
Speaker 1: And I guess, as we reflect here about what you've achieved,
24:01
Speaker 1: since you think this wouldn't have occurred had that beam
24:03
Speaker 1: not snapped. How close you were to snuffing at you
24:07
Speaker 1: all your potential. How do you reflect on that now?
24:10
Speaker 3: Well, it's true, it's a difficult thing to go back
24:13
Speaker 3: and revisit all this. You know, I've come a long
24:15
Speaker 3: way since a lot of that, and yeah, it's a
24:17
Speaker 3: part of me. It's an experience that I've lived that
24:20
Speaker 3: I guess has shaped my outlook on the world and
24:23
Speaker 3: the person that I am. But also I tried it
24:25
Speaker 3: to let that define me as well. And there are
24:27
Speaker 3: many other things that I've done and many other things
24:29
Speaker 3: that I'm doing that contribute to the person that I
24:31
Speaker 3: am and the person I've become. It is hard to
24:34
Speaker 3: go back and revisit these things and pull myself back
24:37
Speaker 3: into that particular moment. It's not a pleasant one and
24:40
Speaker 3: it's a difficult place to go, for sure.
24:43
Speaker 1: It is. It really isn't for me When I when
24:45
Speaker 1: we talked about this morning, it was real for me
24:47
Speaker 1: in a way that it wasn't before. When I see
24:49
Speaker 1: what you've done since, and I'm so grateful that fortune
24:54
Speaker 1: was in your favor at that moment and you have
24:57
Speaker 1: moved on. But there's still some legacies of those choices
25:01
Speaker 1: and the relationships you had, in particular your best mate Sam,
25:07
Speaker 1: who's still in jail to this day serving a life
25:10
Speaker 1: sentence for murder.
25:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess you know, there were definitely a handful
25:15
Speaker 3: of fork in the road kind of moments along the way,
25:19
Speaker 3: and I don't know if you've ever seen that movie
25:20
Speaker 3: The Butterfly Effect, where all these different potential outcomes for
25:24
Speaker 3: the way that a life can look based on different
25:29
Speaker 3: decisions in one particular moment. And I guess in the
25:33
Speaker 3: past I've looked back at some of those moments and gone, well,
25:36
Speaker 3: what if this had happened or what if that had happened?
25:38
Speaker 3: But you know, I also believe that everything happens the
25:42
Speaker 3: way that it should, and that you know, our lives
25:46
Speaker 3: are destined to a particular course. To some extent, that
25:50
Speaker 3: murder that Sam committed was definitely one of those moments
25:53
Speaker 3: where I had started to turn the corner. Sam was
25:57
Speaker 3: my best friend. He was still kind of stuck in
26:00
Speaker 3: that world, and just after he committed the murdery he
26:03
Speaker 3: called me and asked for my help. You know, I
26:06
Speaker 3: waited for him to come and help, and eventually he
26:08
Speaker 3: decided that no, he didn't want to drag me into that.
26:10
Speaker 3: And you know, he was eventually arrested and convicted and
26:13
Speaker 3: received a life sentence. Whereas you know, one really vivid
26:17
Speaker 3: moment that this up, I guess was I remember just
26:21
Speaker 3: after he had been arrested and was on remand in
26:23
Speaker 3: Haykia prison, and I just got my driver's license, and
26:26
Speaker 3: I was driving down the coast to you on the
26:30
Speaker 3: first weekend surfing trip away with my mates, and we
26:33
Speaker 3: drove past a turn off to where Sam had gone
26:36
Speaker 3: and buried the body and kept driving and went surfing
26:39
Speaker 3: and had a good weekend away.
26:41
Speaker 1: And I want to go into the circumstances of the
26:43
Speaker 1: mentor of book. If you want to go back to
26:44
Speaker 1: meth destruction, you can hear more about that. I don't
26:46
Speaker 1: think it's worth going back over detail of that, but
26:49
Speaker 1: there was a critical moment where Sam decided not to
26:54
Speaker 1: involve you, not to come and get you, which would
26:57
Speaker 1: have made you an accessory to that murder while disposing
27:00
Speaker 1: of the body.
27:01
Speaker 3: You owe a lot, I guess I do in a sense,
27:04
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know if I owe him a lot,
27:07
Speaker 3: as in I feel indebted to him in a way,
27:09
Speaker 3: but I have a lot to thank him for and
27:12
Speaker 3: I'm grateful for the decision that he made for choosing
27:15
Speaker 3: not to drag me into that.
27:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a moment where when he were talking
27:19
Speaker 1: to Sam over a video call, and he was sitting
27:22
Speaker 1: there in his green T shirt classic in mat garb
27:25
Speaker 1: and you're sitting there in your green rip curl T shirt. Balley,
27:29
Speaker 1: I said to you, circumstances were different, there'd be no
27:33
Speaker 1: rip curl BALLEI on that green. It just be a
27:34
Speaker 1: green T shirt and haking a prison.
27:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, both wearing very different shades of greener.
27:39
Speaker 1: And he's had to confront the consequences of his decisions.
27:44
Speaker 1: I feel like you've been living some of his life
27:46
Speaker 1: for him, and you've kept your relationship. And I think
27:49
Speaker 1: one thing that really really touched my heart was when
27:52
Speaker 1: he said that a lot of his friends and family
27:55
Speaker 1: have dropped off and you've stuck with him. So I
27:59
Speaker 1: think there is a debt of gratitude at least.
28:01
Speaker 3: Well, I think there was a connection and there was
28:03
Speaker 3: something that we share, and I guess, you know, we
28:07
Speaker 3: both lived experiences that not a lot of other people
28:10
Speaker 3: can relate to, and since that murder, we've both been
28:12
Speaker 3: on our own journeys and I think both of those
28:14
Speaker 3: journeys have played out in similar ways, albeit in very
28:18
Speaker 3: different circumstances. And you know, there are not a lot
28:22
Speaker 3: of other people I find who can relate to those experiences.
28:26
Speaker 3: You know, people can listen to them and be enthralled
28:28
Speaker 3: by them. But you know how many people can actually
28:31
Speaker 3: understands There's very few. You know, my younger brother's one
28:34
Speaker 3: and Sam's another. And yeah, it's just he gets it.
28:38
Speaker 3: He understands. And I think we've both been on our
28:41
Speaker 3: own journeys in uncovered similar wisdoms and insights into ourselves
28:46
Speaker 3: and the world around us, but just in our own
28:48
Speaker 3: different ways.
28:49
Speaker 1: Because he said to you that he feels like he's
28:53
Speaker 1: in the place that he needs to be, which sounds
28:56
Speaker 1: perverse to people from the outside who'd want to be
28:58
Speaker 1: in prison, but that has been He's ten years older
29:02
Speaker 1: than you, by the way, he's just turned forty. Yeah,
29:04
Speaker 1: and a big chunk of his life has been spenting there.
29:07
Speaker 1: He's found a way to retain hope.
29:10
Speaker 3: I remember saying that to him. I remember saying, oh,
29:12
Speaker 3: you know that I was proud of him and despite
29:14
Speaker 3: the circumstances, I was proud of the person who had
29:17
Speaker 3: become in the journey that he'd been on. And he
29:20
Speaker 3: responded to that pretty abruptly. He said, you need to
29:23
Speaker 3: change that way of thinking. You know. It's these circumstances
29:28
Speaker 3: are not necessarily bad, he said to me, this is
29:31
Speaker 3: exactly where I need to be. This is what was
29:34
Speaker 3: supposed to happen, and this is life exactly it was
29:37
Speaker 3: as it was planned out for me, and I'm exactly
29:39
Speaker 3: in the place that I need to be, where I
29:41
Speaker 3: was able to uncover the lessons which I needed to uncover,
29:45
Speaker 3: you know. And he said that as a prisoner he
29:47
Speaker 3: often goes through that same experience of he's got a
29:52
Speaker 3: lot of time to think, and he thinks a lot
29:53
Speaker 3: about what would have happened if I did this differently
29:56
Speaker 3: or did that differently. And I think he's made peace
29:59
Speaker 3: with that and come to terms with it, you know,
30:01
Speaker 3: he's asked himself, well, you know, you can't think like that,
30:05
Speaker 3: because who knows if he would even still be here
30:07
Speaker 3: if that murder hadn't have happened and he hadn't been
30:09
Speaker 3: arrested and gone to prison. Who knows if he would
30:12
Speaker 3: even still be alive.
30:14
Speaker 1: Because that is certainly a feature of some people's prison experiences.
30:17
Speaker 1: Once they're behind bars and they come down off the drugs,
30:21
Speaker 1: they get sober, they get the insight. And I've dealt
30:23
Speaker 1: with this many times with prisoners I've corresponded with, and
30:27
Speaker 1: they have great clarity and they can articulate things that
30:30
Speaker 1: they never could before while they're in that animalistic survival
30:34
Speaker 1: mode that you know all so well. And also I
30:38
Speaker 1: reflect on the fact that those fourteen years that he's
30:41
Speaker 1: spent inside, you've been turning your life around and making
30:45
Speaker 1: a successive things. All those waves you've caught, all those
30:49
Speaker 1: places you've been, the insights you've had. As you say,
30:51
Speaker 1: you've come to a similar place, but through very different circumstances.
30:55
Speaker 1: Sam is now hopefully will be released in the coming years.
31:01
Speaker 1: What will be your relationship with him from here on
31:03
Speaker 1: and what will you share with him? How do you
31:05
Speaker 1: see the future with him?
31:07
Speaker 3: I think of that world of drugs that I was
31:10
Speaker 3: involved in. Sam as the only person that I've kept
31:13
Speaker 3: in contact with. I think him and I shared something
31:16
Speaker 3: that went far deeper than just the drugs. I think
31:18
Speaker 3: a lot of other friends I had that was all
31:20
Speaker 3: we really had in common, that was all we had
31:21
Speaker 3: to connect over, whereas Sam and I shared something much deeper.
31:26
Speaker 3: And I know for Sam that the real struggle will
31:31
Speaker 3: come when he gets out of prison. You know, he's
31:34
Speaker 3: spent almost a whole lifetime in there. You know he's
31:37
Speaker 3: going to come out and find a very different world,
31:40
Speaker 3: and I wonder how some of the hopes and dreams
31:44
Speaker 3: that he has us. You know, I think he's also
31:46
Speaker 3: going to find some disappointment as well. I do worry
31:49
Speaker 3: for him when he'll get out, and what will come
31:52
Speaker 3: of his life, and what he'll be able to make
31:54
Speaker 3: of his life, and what kind of future awaits him
31:57
Speaker 3: outside of those prison walls.
32:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I did like about your dialogue with him
32:03
Speaker 1: was that he's not trying to wish away what he did.
32:05
Speaker 1: He feels genuine remorse for what happened, and the victim,
32:10
Speaker 1: even though the victim himself was not a good person,
32:13
Speaker 1: was going to do some terrible things. We won't go
32:14
Speaker 1: into what he was going to do, but this was
32:16
Speaker 1: not a random murder. But he has the capacity to
32:22
Speaker 1: forgive himself for what he did, so he doesn't just
32:26
Speaker 1: go back into that negative image of himself. And I
32:28
Speaker 1: think you've done the same thing to a large extent.
32:32
Speaker 1: His example maybe has helped you bolt that door which
32:36
Speaker 1: was previously a revolving door drugs and crime.
32:39
Speaker 3: Well, I think we've both been through that journey of
32:41
Speaker 3: self forgiveness. You know, I think we've both done things
32:45
Speaker 3: that we're not proud of. To different extents. And yeah,
32:49
Speaker 3: that journey of self forgiveness is something that anybody who's
32:52
Speaker 3: experienced drug addiction has to go through, and that's a
32:55
Speaker 3: difficult thing. It's not an easy thing to do, you know.
32:58
Speaker 3: I think it's easy to forgive other people for the
33:02
Speaker 3: mistakes that they've made, you know, through a of understanding
33:06
Speaker 3: and empathy. But how do you forgive yourself? You know,
33:10
Speaker 3: how do you forgive yourself for these things that you've done?
33:13
Speaker 3: And there might be certain things that they triggering you
33:15
Speaker 3: and that you perpetuate, and how do you let go
33:17
Speaker 3: of all that and start again? How do you almost
33:18
Speaker 3: reprogram yourself in a way, how do you wipe the
33:21
Speaker 3: slate clean and start again. That's not an easy thing
33:24
Speaker 3: to do for me, and I know for Sam as well.
33:27
Speaker 3: That's been a long journey that we've both had to
33:29
Speaker 3: go through. And I guess the way in which I've
33:33
Speaker 3: done that is by acts of kindness towards myself, by
33:36
Speaker 3: being kind towards myself, looking after myself, taking care of myself,
33:41
Speaker 3: and learning to love myself again and let go of
33:43
Speaker 3: some of the things that I've done, and also to
33:47
Speaker 3: redefine myself in a way to move away from that
33:50
Speaker 3: and to become a different person, to shape myself away
33:52
Speaker 3: from those experiences that have defined me, and maybe even
33:56
Speaker 3: you know, physically going away from a place that defined
33:58
Speaker 3: me as well.
33:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you really have redefined yourself. And I
34:02
Speaker 1: look at the ten years I've known you, and I
34:04
Speaker 1: think it's an isis often through hard work. You went
34:07
Speaker 1: back to school, you completed year twelve, you went to university,
34:11
Speaker 1: you became a journalist. One of the proudest moments for
34:14
Speaker 1: me was sitting there with your dad when you were
34:16
Speaker 1: named as WA's Young Journalist of the Year. You're smiling.
34:18
Speaker 1: I remember that was a beautiful day. And so you've
34:20
Speaker 1: made every post to win it, and you've gone onto
34:23
Speaker 1: a career in journalism. You've come up to Indonesia, you're
34:26
Speaker 1: still on a quest. And this film you're making, The
34:28
Speaker 1: Long Road Home, is about the road forward as much
34:32
Speaker 1: as it is the road you've come along.
34:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's like, well, I guess we're all.
34:37
Speaker 3: You know, all young people are looking for something and
34:39
Speaker 3: searching for something, aren't they. And I think, you know,
34:44
Speaker 3: the past couple of years, I've spent sort of riding
34:46
Speaker 3: a motorbike across Indonesia, and you know, I guess I
34:49
Speaker 3: set out looking for empty waves and you know, adventure,
34:53
Speaker 3: and I think that might have been something that helped
34:56
Speaker 3: me move away from drugs, but I think within that
34:59
Speaker 3: I was also looking for something that wasn't possible to
35:02
Speaker 3: find there as well. I think I was looking for
35:03
Speaker 3: a sense of home within myself, and I was maybe running,
35:09
Speaker 3: you know, moving away from these things and trying to
35:13
Speaker 3: seek something just beyond, when what I was actually looking
35:15
Speaker 3: for was probably right there all along. I just had to,
35:18
Speaker 3: I guess, unlock the way inside.
35:20
Speaker 1: Really, one of the themes that we've talked about a
35:24
Speaker 1: lot over ten years is rediscovering joy after the artificial
35:29
Speaker 1: chemical highs and those superficial relationships you have with other
35:36
Speaker 1: drug users. And I've seen it so many times over
35:38
Speaker 1: the years. Oh my brother, I love you, my brother.
35:41
Speaker 1: You know, we'll die for each other, and then pretty
35:43
Speaker 1: much you always see that kid in the dock on
35:45
Speaker 1: his own and the friends have given him up, and
35:47
Speaker 1: so those superficial relationships, and I think you've been You've
35:50
Speaker 1: found a way to do that. And I think that's
35:52
Speaker 1: such an object lesson for anyone listening who's going through
35:54
Speaker 1: the groups of drug addiction now and crime and things.
35:56
Speaker 1: Is to reassure oneself that through hard work there is
36:00
Speaker 1: a capacity for joy after that. What's been your process
36:03
Speaker 1: towards that. It's not been easy, and they've been setbacks
36:06
Speaker 1: and turnings on this journey. You know, I think.
36:10
Speaker 3: After taking drugs there's a chemical imbalance in your brain
36:14
Speaker 3: where it's difficult for your brain to actually produce dopamine.
36:17
Speaker 3: And you know, you've kind of been living on this
36:19
Speaker 3: plane of really high eighs and low lows, and it's
36:21
Speaker 3: hard to kind of go back to living on a
36:23
Speaker 3: steady plane again and to appreciate the simple things in life.
36:26
Speaker 3: And I think for me that took a long time.
36:28
Speaker 3: I think a big part of that was leaving Perth
36:30
Speaker 3: and moving down to Margaret River and learning to appreciate
36:33
Speaker 3: simple things like growing my own food and going surfing
36:36
Speaker 3: and you know, living in a caravan in the bush
36:38
Speaker 3: and living in a really simple way, learning to appreciate
36:42
Speaker 3: the beauty and the joy of life around me. And
36:44
Speaker 3: I think that was something that took a good few
36:46
Speaker 3: years just to accomplish.
36:48
Speaker 1: Sure. And I think you've said many times in this
36:50
Speaker 1: process of making the film that you do feel like
36:51
Speaker 1: you're running. You were going around Australia with your land
36:54
Speaker 1: drover and your little tiny boat. You were going around
36:57
Speaker 1: the circles. But you know that wasn't going to contain you.
37:00
Speaker 1: And you literally had to learn a new language in
37:02
Speaker 1: your life. And it's literally a new language, Indonesian. You
37:07
Speaker 1: now speak fluent into Indonesian, which is equipped to you
37:10
Speaker 1: for this journey right outside yourself in other cultures and
37:14
Speaker 1: to interpret those lives. And I think that's just wonderful,
37:18
Speaker 1: and I think people can learn new skills, and I
37:20
Speaker 1: think that's the key, a new way of looking at
37:23
Speaker 1: your own life.
37:24
Speaker 3: It's true, and I guess, you know, I think coming
37:27
Speaker 3: to another country and experiencing another country and other people
37:30
Speaker 3: than a different way of thinking and viewing and understanding
37:32
Speaker 3: the world. That's helped to change my own perspective as
37:34
Speaker 3: well and my own understanding of myself. It's also had
37:39
Speaker 3: an influence on my own view and my own understanding
37:42
Speaker 3: of myself and the person that I am. You know,
37:45
Speaker 3: it's also allowed me to redefine myself in a way
37:47
Speaker 3: away from a place that had defined me to an extent,
37:52
Speaker 3: and yeah, to move away from that and become a
37:54
Speaker 3: new and different person.
37:56
Speaker 1: People often want to transform themselves, and I think as
37:58
Speaker 1: a bit of a falsity that one can have these
38:01
Speaker 1: parts that you despise of yourself and you're going to
38:04
Speaker 1: rub those out and everything's going to be fine. And
38:06
Speaker 1: I think the process has been one of accepting oneself.
38:09
Speaker 1: And I invited you to listen to one of my
38:10
Speaker 1: favorite philosophers, Alan Watts, who a British philosopher, is unfortunately late,
38:15
Speaker 1: but he talks about the fact that this constant desire
38:19
Speaker 1: to change oneself, to erase those things you don't like
38:23
Speaker 1: about oneself, is actually the problem. You know, that's the
38:25
Speaker 1: quaking mess, and thinking that this process of transformation is
38:29
Speaker 1: going to be the great virtue when in fact that's
38:31
Speaker 1: the problem. And I think you've come to that understanding
38:35
Speaker 1: that accepting oneself, all your flaws and all your history,
38:39
Speaker 1: has been a way of moving forward, carrying less of
38:42
Speaker 1: the burden.
38:43
Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, maybe that's what I was
38:45
Speaker 3: looking for through all this running, and you know, searching
38:48
Speaker 3: for something is maybe just this contentment with who I
38:51
Speaker 3: am and where I'm at and the person that I am,
38:53
Speaker 3: and accepting that person for all of his flaws and
38:56
Speaker 3: mistakes and regrets, and that's formed a big part of
38:59
Speaker 3: who I am. And I think, you know, life is
39:04
Speaker 3: exactly the way it's supposed to be, and you know,
39:06
Speaker 3: all of these things were supposed to happen. I've arrived
39:09
Speaker 3: now exactly in the place where I'm meant to be,
39:13
Speaker 3: and it's through that journey I've been able to arrive
39:17
Speaker 3: at an understanding and acceptance of myself that I didn't
39:21
Speaker 3: have before. You know, I am different, and I am
39:24
Speaker 3: the person that I am, and I'm okay with that person.
39:27
Speaker 1: You kind of played in getting your first tattoo. We've
39:29
Speaker 1: talked about this and it's come from a Javanese expression.
39:34
Speaker 3: What is it? It's a difficult one to translate. It's
39:37
Speaker 3: I guess it's a phrase that's unique to a particular people,
39:41
Speaker 3: but it translates roughly to be patient. Your destiny is
39:44
Speaker 3: already determined or your fortune's already determined.
39:47
Speaker 1: And so all that negative stuff was just part of
39:49
Speaker 1: that that was already ordained. You had to go through
39:53
Speaker 1: that to get to the next phase of your life,
39:55
Speaker 1: which you're in now.
39:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that phrase kind of sums it up.
39:59
Speaker 3: You know, everything has happened the way that it's supposed
40:02
Speaker 3: to happen. And I guess it sums up that idea
40:05
Speaker 3: year of acceptance, of accepting that this is the way
40:09
Speaker 3: that I am, and this is the way that things
40:10
Speaker 3: were supposed to happen, and exactly as it was supposed
40:14
Speaker 3: to be, and it always exactly as it's supposed to be.
40:17
Speaker 1: And there are probably hopefully thousands of people listening to
40:21
Speaker 1: this podcast, A certain percentage will be saying, that's me
40:26
Speaker 1: or that's my son. What does your experience offer those people?
40:33
Speaker 3: I guess hope, you know, I guess hope that there
40:35
Speaker 3: is a future and there is a way forward, and
40:39
Speaker 3: there is life beyond drugs, and you know, it might
40:42
Speaker 3: not seem like it. Sometimes it might seem that things
40:45
Speaker 3: might often look pretty bleak and dark, but you know,
40:48
Speaker 3: with hard work and persistence and determination that there is
40:51
Speaker 3: a way forward and there is a way through this,
40:53
Speaker 3: and with some intent and determination, the future does look
40:57
Speaker 3: pretty bright and.
40:59
Speaker 1: There is a place that you can call home. And
41:00
Speaker 1: this is still a focus on this film. By the way,
41:02
Speaker 1: you're preparing to go back to Perth. Now you don't
41:05
Speaker 1: know what the future holds, Maybe you go back there.
41:08
Speaker 1: I means since i've known you. You've been threatening to
41:10
Speaker 1: go back to Perth to find that home that you
41:12
Speaker 1: never really felt. I'm not sure it's there, and I
41:16
Speaker 1: don't think you can adequately answer that question yet, but
41:18
Speaker 1: you're still there's still another chapter of that restoration and
41:22
Speaker 1: that sense of home, which I think a lot of
41:24
Speaker 1: young people who get involved in crime and drugs, I
41:27
Speaker 1: don't really like that, and they've destroyed their families and
41:30
Speaker 1: there's not much to go back to. Fortunately, you have
41:33
Speaker 1: rebuilt the bridges with your family, but that may not
41:36
Speaker 1: be your ultimate destination.
41:38
Speaker 3: Well, I think what this journey's really been about is
41:39
Speaker 3: finding a sense of home within myself, you know, understanding
41:42
Speaker 3: and accepting that this is the person that I am
41:44
Speaker 3: and this is where I belong. You know. Home might
41:47
Speaker 3: not be back in that particular place, but for a
41:50
Speaker 3: long time I didn't feel at home within myself. And
41:54
Speaker 3: I think that's really what I've been running around and
41:59
Speaker 3: looking for and chasing, is that sense of acceptance within myself.
42:02
Speaker 1: You know.
42:03
Speaker 3: I think going back to a place that fits the
42:08
Speaker 3: traditional idea of home, the traditional context of home is
42:11
Speaker 3: I guess a reference point for that. You know, my
42:13
Speaker 3: family are there and it's a place where I spent
42:15
Speaker 3: a good chunk of time growing up, and it might
42:18
Speaker 3: for a lot of people that might be home. But
42:20
Speaker 3: I think you know the understanding that there's no sense
42:25
Speaker 3: of home within that, but there's a sense, you know,
42:27
Speaker 3: maybe I've discovered a sense of home within myself, and
42:30
Speaker 3: I think that'll be a big reference point for that
42:32
Speaker 3: and a big understanding of sure.
42:35
Speaker 1: I think one of the achievements has been to free
42:38
Speaker 1: yourself of all that past, to give yourself options that
42:42
Speaker 1: people in the criminal justice system simply don't have their
42:44
Speaker 1: choices narrow down. But now at age thirty, it's trying
42:48
Speaker 1: to make some decisions about what happens in the future.
42:51
Speaker 1: And I'm just fascinated to see what happens. I've got
42:53
Speaker 1: an inkling and I've watched you over these ten years,
42:57
Speaker 1: and I'm just so proud of you.
42:59
Speaker 3: Now, Thanks Adam, And I'm really grateful for all the
43:02
Speaker 3: help and advice and guidance and support that you've given
43:05
Speaker 3: me along the way. You know, you've made a big
43:07
Speaker 3: impact on my life.
43:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, there have been some moments while we've clashed. Yeah,
43:12
Speaker 1: and I've seen that defiance and I've seen that kid
43:15
Speaker 1: that was in that terrible spotshep. But you just you've
43:18
Speaker 1: done it on You've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps.
43:20
Speaker 1: And I think that's just incredibly admirable that I've never
43:22
Speaker 1: said to this to any other person I've been given
43:24
Speaker 1: on this podcast with grumbing Adam shand I do love you.
43:27
Speaker 3: I love you too, Adam.
43:28
Speaker 1: Thanks, Matte, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much for
43:30
Speaker 1: your time, mate. Yeah, I can't wait to see this film.
43:32
Speaker 1: The Long Road at Home will be in cinemas at
43:35
Speaker 1: a date to be fixed in the future, still in progress,
43:38
Speaker 1: but it's going to be a fantastic journey. And I
43:39
Speaker 1: think it's just it offers so much, and Tom's story
43:42
Speaker 1: offers so much to all those people out there who
43:45
Speaker 1: are battling with this. Don't give up on your children.
43:48
Speaker 1: Try your best. You're going to make mistakes, you will,
43:51
Speaker 1: and they'll continue to disappoint you and cause your dramas.
43:55
Speaker 1: But I think what I love about Tom experiences they
43:58
Speaker 1: have stuck the journey. There have been moments where they
44:01
Speaker 1: it's been very tough, but they're still there. They're still
44:04
Speaker 1: in this corner even though the thicket sometimes and I'm
44:06
Speaker 1: really proud of them as well. But so you know,
44:08
Speaker 1: I love your kids as best you can give them
44:11
Speaker 1: second chance, third chance, as many chances as they need,
44:14
Speaker 1: because the potential is there. If love is there, What
44:19
Speaker 1: can I say? What can I say? Oh?
44:20
Speaker 3: I think I think what this is really about is
44:22
Speaker 3: not so much about drugs, And you know, I think
44:25
Speaker 3: it's about finding a way as a young man. And
44:27
Speaker 3: that's the thing that all young men struggle through, you know,
44:30
Speaker 3: with the lack of guidance and rituals, and you know,
44:33
Speaker 3: I guess male role models to some extent as well,
44:37
Speaker 3: and it's it's not an easy thing to find you
44:39
Speaker 3: as a young man in a modern day and age.
44:41
Speaker 3: You know, that's something that led me down this pretty
44:44
Speaker 3: dark path. But yeah, I mean I guess I've been
44:47
Speaker 3: able to find my way forward and find a path.
44:52
Speaker 1: Well said, as Tom says, stay patient, your fortune is
44:58
Speaker 1: already ordained. Thank you for listening. If you have a
45:02
Speaker 1: crime you want to commit, don't do it. If you
45:04
Speaker 1: have a crime you want to report, call crime Stoppers
45:07
Speaker 1: one need a hundred, triple three, triple zero. I do
45:09
Speaker 1: take there very seriously. Police will attend to your information.
45:12
Speaker 1: But if you don't trust the coppers. Please send me
45:15
Speaker 1: an email Adam Shanner, writer at gmail dot com. Thank
45:18
Speaker 1: you for listening. This has been Real Crime with Adam
45:20
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45:32
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