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SciFi Doubles with Kuwal & Miller · WriterCon

0:00
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
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Speaker 2: It would be to trust your own taste. You have
0:06
Speaker 2: been honing your taste for decades as a reader for
0:09
Speaker 2: your entire life, and you can trust that when you're writing.
0:14
Speaker 2: So don't try to write to someone else's taste. Write
0:16
Speaker 2: for your own taste.
0:17
Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
0:20
Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
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Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhard, best selling novelist and author of
0:27
Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
0:30
Speaker 1: winning author of the want LNN Files book series.
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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich, Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
0:41
Speaker 3: us today. It's getting close to Halloween, right, so I
0:45
Speaker 3: have dressed appropriately in orange and black. I'm wondering what
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Speaker 3: costumes will be popular this year. I of course thought
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Speaker 3: about dressing up for Superman, you know, thinking of my
0:56
Speaker 3: new book, The Superman Warris problem is I would have
0:59
Speaker 3: to buy like that chest padding that George Reeves used
1:02
Speaker 3: to wear in the old fifties television series, and plus
1:07
Speaker 3: there are no Superman candies. I suppose I could hand
1:11
Speaker 3: out my book to tricker treaters and they would probably
1:16
Speaker 3: throw it back at me. And ask where the candy is?
1:18
Speaker 3: So maybe not Laura. How are you costuming this year?
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Speaker 4: Hell, I'm not sure. I've made a final decision. What
1:26
Speaker 4: might I might do Mortitia Adams again. Natural time that
1:32
Speaker 4: I dressed as Mortitia, no one seemed to know who
1:38
Speaker 4: I was or what I was doing. But I think
1:40
Speaker 4: with Wednesday being out and popular on Netflix that I
1:45
Speaker 4: might actually get recognized this time.
1:47
Speaker 3: I tried to do Gomez, but I don't think anyone
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Speaker 3: was convinced, probably because I don't.
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Speaker 5: Have the mustache.
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Speaker 3: Maybe Jesse, how do you and Michelle celebrate Halloween?
1:57
Speaker 1: Well, this year we're actually going to be in Vegas
1:59
Speaker 1: for hallowe because we're saying that live you know, uh
2:05
Speaker 1: D and D playing comedians that we like, and so
2:09
Speaker 1: we're gonna We're gonna do with what's called casual cosplay,
2:12
Speaker 1: where we dress up with some of the characters from
2:14
Speaker 1: the story, but not go crazy because you know, that
2:17
Speaker 1: requires a lot of luggage. So for for any of
2:20
Speaker 1: our listeners who are also drop out fans, and when
2:22
Speaker 1: we're dressing up as Barry six, so for the people
2:25
Speaker 1: get that reference, I love you. I will say There'll
2:28
Speaker 1: probably be a lot of K pop Demon Hunter Halloween outfits.
2:31
Speaker 5: This year, which I'm very excited.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so uh something for girls and boys. We've seen
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Speaker 3: the movie, right, I mean us and everybody else on
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Speaker 3: the earth. So I'm curious about this Vegas thing. I mean,
2:44
Speaker 3: these guys are the jokes. Are they playing D and
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Speaker 3: D while they make jokes?
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Speaker 6: Yes?
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Speaker 1: Yes, so they're playing up So they're all they're all good.
2:52
Speaker 1: They're all good D and D players now, And they're
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Speaker 1: also originally and still are great improvisers. And the campaign
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Speaker 1: is run by someone who's an incredible storyteller and great improviser,
3:03
Speaker 1: and so the live shows are very much just like
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Speaker 1: the wackiest versions of these stories, and they just sort
3:07
Speaker 1: of go along with it and the crowd gets involved.
3:09
Speaker 1: And again I was in Maskins Square Garden and a
3:13
Speaker 1: character rolled a natural twenty and twenty two thousand people
3:17
Speaker 1: lost their minds.
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Speaker 5: It was great.
3:19
Speaker 1: I'm very excited to see it again.
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Speaker 3: But D and D games go on for a long time,
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Speaker 3: don't they.
3:27
Speaker 1: He's the DM Brandley Mulligan is very good at like
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Speaker 1: he knows he's done. They've done of live shows now
3:33
Speaker 1: he knows how to make it like two hours and
3:35
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes almost exactly, and then you know you can tell,
3:40
Speaker 1: with like thirty minutes left, he's already beginning to wrap
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Speaker 1: it up, and they're they're incredibly entertaining a lot of fun.
3:46
Speaker 1: I have no memory of what actually happened at any
3:49
Speaker 1: of the ones I've seen now, Like I said, I
3:50
Speaker 1: have to rewatch them when they release them, but they're
3:52
Speaker 1: great when I'm there.
3:53
Speaker 3: Are you going to see the Spear while you're there?
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Speaker 1: I would love to go in it. I don't know
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Speaker 1: if I'll be able to. I'll definitely see it physically.
4:01
Speaker 5: Sit through the Wizard of Oz or if.
4:03
Speaker 1: It's still playing. I kind of kind of want to, so.
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Speaker 5: I think you should. While you're there, I.
4:07
Speaker 1: Can just yell people how Oz is terrifying and no
4:10
Speaker 1: one wants to live there.
4:11
Speaker 5: Going back to our conversation.
4:13
Speaker 3: Getting back to yeah, I got a writer con live episodes, Yes,
4:19
Speaker 3: all right, our interview today. We actually have two authors
4:22
Speaker 3: to talk to today, and that Sam J. Miller and
4:26
Speaker 3: Mary Robinette Kowal. They are both very well established and
4:30
Speaker 3: successful science fiction writers. Sam has the Hugo, Mary has
4:35
Speaker 3: the Nebula, and she also has a hego come to
4:38
Speaker 3: think of it, but now they're working on something together,
4:42
Speaker 3: except kind of sort of not totally together. It's a
4:48
Speaker 3: saga double And if you don't know what that is,
4:50
Speaker 3: and I certainly didn't beforehand, then hang around and find out,
4:56
Speaker 3: because they're really fun people to talk to. All right,
4:58
Speaker 3: we'll get to that really soon, but first the news
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Speaker 3: news story number one, Amazon agrees to pay huge settlement,
5:24
Speaker 3: a huge settlement over Amazon Prime cancelation practices. Usually stories
5:32
Speaker 3: about Amazon involve them getting money one way or another,
5:37
Speaker 3: but this time Amazon has actually agreed to pay two
5:40
Speaker 3: and a half billion dollars to settle claims that it
5:44
Speaker 3: basically fooled millions of people into signing up for Prime
5:49
Speaker 3: membership and then made it very difficult for customers to
5:54
Speaker 3: cancel when they went it out. I don't know. I've
5:56
Speaker 3: never I've got Prime, I never tried to cancel it,
5:59
Speaker 3: so I don't know, but I know there are other
6:01
Speaker 3: things that have become so difficult to cancel. It either
6:04
Speaker 3: takes all day or finally you just give up. In fact,
6:07
Speaker 3: there's one I won't say that. Yeah, well it's PBS.
6:11
Speaker 3: I've been trying to cancel that. It's five dollars a month,
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Speaker 3: and I cannot get rid of it.
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Speaker 1: And really want you really want to take away money
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Speaker 1: from public broadcasting.
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Speaker 3: Now, well that is a valid point, but there's a
6:23
Speaker 3: PBS app coming, so it's duplicative to have both, you know.
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Speaker 5: Anyway, the settlement was.
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Speaker 3: Announced and it came after a jury's trial in Seattle
6:36
Speaker 3: had already begun. This all comes from an FTC lawsuit
6:40
Speaker 3: that was filed back in twenty twenty three, and it's
6:45
Speaker 3: about this online sweeping it's online shopping service, and this
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Speaker 3: antitrust case that they've filed that effects about two hundred
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Speaker 3: million people. But all those people signing up for Prime,
7:00
Speaker 3: that comes to about forty four billion dollars a year.
7:06
Speaker 3: But of course Prime members are Amazon's best customers. They
7:10
Speaker 3: buy more stuff, they buy it more often than people
7:13
Speaker 3: aren't signed up, and so you'd think maybe Amazon would
7:18
Speaker 3: treat them better. But I guess Amazon just never wants
7:23
Speaker 3: to let them go. I don't know. I, like I said,
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Speaker 3: I haven't done it, Laura. Have you ever tried to
7:27
Speaker 3: cancel your Prime membership?
7:30
Speaker 4: No? I have not. Actually I share your Prime.
7:34
Speaker 3: Members Oh well you don't have to write. We'll just
7:37
Speaker 3: be Prime together exactly.
7:39
Speaker 4: We Prime together. But I know exactly what you're talking about.
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Speaker 4: I have had some other things that I have really
7:45
Speaker 4: struggled to actually cancel. You think you've declined it, you're
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Speaker 4: signed up for it, you think that you're getting rid
7:51
Speaker 4: of it, it keeps popping back up. That's really frustrating.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I should make a note jest, because you're right
8:01
Speaker 3: about what you're saying about PBS. But what I loved
8:04
Speaker 3: most were the uh like the Ken Burns documentaries and
8:08
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and that's all on Amazon Prime. Now,
8:11
Speaker 3: speaking of Amazon, all those probably because of what's happening
8:15
Speaker 3: at PBS, all those have been ported onto Amazon. What
8:19
Speaker 3: do you think this business with Amazon Prime cancelation is
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Speaker 3: all about?
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Speaker 1: Just I mean, this is just one of one hundred
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Speaker 1: companies out there that you know, Amazon didn't need to
8:30
Speaker 1: do this, right, but they were. And I've had Amazon
8:33
Speaker 1: Prime since grad school in like two thousand and six
8:36
Speaker 1: when I launched, So I never got tricked into a prime, right,
8:40
Speaker 1: I've always just had it. But like, for example, if
8:44
Speaker 1: there are any of our listeners who like maybe say,
8:46
Speaker 1: have their prescriptions on Walmart, I can tell you, like
8:49
Speaker 1: the Walmart Plus thing pops up every time you go
8:52
Speaker 1: to the app and I accidentally joined it once, right, Like,
8:56
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be required to have to go through you know,
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Speaker 1: mazes and answer riddles to cancel subscriptions. If if everything's
9:04
Speaker 1: gonna be a subscription model, now we need some sort
9:07
Speaker 1: of law or regulation that gives us a one clip,
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Speaker 1: one click cancelation thing.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, right, that would be a worthwhile law, like, you.
9:16
Speaker 1: Know, to get really nerdy, I just canceled my Xbox
9:20
Speaker 1: Game Pass because the price was about to go up
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Speaker 1: ten dollars a month, and I was honestly surprised that
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Speaker 1: one it only took one click, and two they didn't
9:28
Speaker 1: try to offer me a lower price to stay. I
9:30
Speaker 1: was kind of expecting the lower price to stay and
9:31
Speaker 1: I did not get it. So now I'm just out
9:34
Speaker 1: and also the by games like a regular person. But
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Speaker 1: that was actually easy. It shouldn't be hard.
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Speaker 5: It shouldn't.
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Speaker 1: This is what like the FTC is supposed to protect
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Speaker 1: us from.
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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, Well maybe now they've done us some good. Okay,
9:49
Speaker 3: news story number two. You've heard a lot of talk
9:52
Speaker 3: about TikTok and book talk on this podcast before, but
9:56
Speaker 3: this story is about TikTok and wait for it, Spotify. Yes,
10:03
Speaker 3: they are together Spotify and TikTok launching a new hub,
10:07
Speaker 3: which will be called Big on book Talk. And I
10:12
Speaker 3: mentioned this story well in part because it's likely to
10:15
Speaker 3: have a big impact on book sales and book authors,
10:19
Speaker 3: but also to tell the authors listening that, if possible,
10:23
Speaker 3: this is something you should pursue. If you're on book talk,
10:27
Speaker 3: you know the drill. You scroll around and you tap,
10:30
Speaker 3: and suddenly your two b red list is overflowing with
10:35
Speaker 3: trendy things that look pretty good. It's not at all
10:38
Speaker 3: unlike Spotify so is to music. So now book talk
10:45
Speaker 3: has become the Spotify for books, a cultural phenomenon, literally
10:51
Speaker 3: creating global bestsellers and connecting readers from every possible corner
10:56
Speaker 3: of the world. But even after you've added a recommendation
11:00
Speaker 3: to your wish lists, well, then what this is where
11:04
Speaker 3: the new Spotify hub comes into play. Big on book
11:08
Speaker 3: Talk they're piloting a co branded hub that turns your
11:14
Speaker 3: book talk wish list into a to be listened playlist,
11:20
Speaker 3: and through November, the community of book lovers and the
11:23
Speaker 3: United States can dive into this dedicated space and press
11:28
Speaker 3: play and discover all those audio books that you've been
11:31
Speaker 3: wanting to listen to are now taking over your feeds, right,
11:36
Speaker 3: It's a one stop spot for all the trending audio
11:39
Speaker 3: books that are so good you won't even want to
11:43
Speaker 3: pause them. Jesse, I'll turn to you because I think,
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Speaker 3: do I remember correctly? You use Spotify sometimes occasion, yes,
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Speaker 3: for audio books or just music.
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Speaker 4: No.
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Speaker 1: I mean, here's the thing. As hard as Spotify tries
11:58
Speaker 1: to get audiobooks, the audio book listener is not using Spotify.
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Speaker 1: Like they are two different people. Like I wish them luck,
12:05
Speaker 1: I don't think this is going to be that useful.
12:08
Speaker 5: Yeah.
12:09
Speaker 3: Well, you know, Spotify has tried before to make a
12:14
Speaker 3: mark in the world of audio books, and I don't
12:16
Speaker 3: think it's really caught fire yet, so this is probably
12:20
Speaker 3: yet another try. Laura, the most important question for us
12:24
Speaker 3: is how can we get our books on this hub?
12:26
Speaker 4: Any thoughts have a book that people go crazy for
12:30
Speaker 4: on TikTok, Yeah, and.
12:33
Speaker 3: Then somehow spotify it.
12:35
Speaker 5: But yeah, the most of.
12:36
Speaker 3: Course, if people are going crazy for your book on TikTok,
12:40
Speaker 3: that maybe all you need, you know, But.
12:42
Speaker 4: It's probably a pretty good driving factor, yeah, I would imagine.
12:46
Speaker 3: So all right, let's turn to Craft Corner this time
12:51
Speaker 3: around for a Craft Corner segment. We're going to hear
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Speaker 3: from longtime writer con friend Betsy Kulakowski. She's the author
12:59
Speaker 3: of the Veritas Veritas Codex series. Try and say that
13:04
Speaker 3: three times fast, Veritas Codex and the eighth, Yes, eighth
13:10
Speaker 3: book in her science fiction fantasy Adventures series is on
13:14
Speaker 3: the horizon. Start reading the other seven so you'll be
13:19
Speaker 3: ready for the Sultan's Stone. All right, Today she's going
13:23
Speaker 3: to talk about a subject she knows very well, or
13:26
Speaker 3: the combination of two subjects, world building and character, and
13:31
Speaker 3: how the two are related. Take it away, Betsy.
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Speaker 1: Craft Corner.
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Speaker 7: Hi, this is Betsy Koulikowski, best selling author of the
13:43
Speaker 7: Veritas Codex paranormal thriller series, and I'm here with today's
13:46
Speaker 7: Craft Corner. One of the most important things that I
13:49
Speaker 7: have learned in writing thrillers is that character and world
13:53
Speaker 7: building really aren't separate. In fact, they feed each other.
13:57
Speaker 7: A character doesn't exist in a vacuum world. They live
14:00
Speaker 7: in shapes who they are, how they think, and the
14:03
Speaker 7: choices they make. For example, when I'm writing doctor Lauren
14:06
Speaker 7: Grayson in the Veritas Kodec series, it's really her courage
14:10
Speaker 7: and her curiosity that I think make her a great protagonist,
14:13
Speaker 7: but those traits mean more because of the dangerous and
14:16
Speaker 7: mysterious worlds that she steps into. The settings are ancient ruins,
14:20
Speaker 7: hidden chambers, secret societies, but those aren't just backdrops. They're
14:25
Speaker 7: there to test her, to tempt her, and to reveal
14:29
Speaker 7: her strengths and flaws that she didn't even know she had.
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Speaker 7: When I approach world building, I ask myself what would
14:36
Speaker 7: challenge my characters most. If the environment is hostile, unfamiliar,
14:41
Speaker 7: or even morally complex, then every decision matters more. At
14:46
Speaker 7: the same time, I also want to think about the
14:47
Speaker 7: character's past and how that shapes how they see the world.
14:51
Speaker 7: A scientist like Lauren might notice details that others miss,
14:55
Speaker 7: but she's also a skeptic, so she might even resist
14:57
Speaker 7: believing what's right there in front of her, and that
15:00
Speaker 7: interplay is where tension lives. When readers say they love
15:04
Speaker 7: a character, it's often because the world forced them to
15:07
Speaker 7: grow in.
15:07
Speaker 2: A way that was believable.
15:09
Speaker 7: And when they say they feel immersed in the world,
15:11
Speaker 7: it's usually because the characters are experiencing it through really
15:14
Speaker 7: authentic emotions. So the takeaway for writers is this, build
15:19
Speaker 7: your world around the cracks and your character. Then let
15:23
Speaker 7: that world push them until something breaks or they transform.
15:27
Speaker 7: When character and world collide, that's where the spark of
15:31
Speaker 7: story ignites. Keep writing.
15:35
Speaker 3: Thank you Betsy Kulakowski. And remember who knew her new book,
15:40
Speaker 3: The Sultan Stone, the eighth book in the Veritas Codec series.
15:46
Speaker 3: You could order it today and I think you should.
15:49
Speaker 3: For now, let's talk to our interview guests, and that's
15:53
Speaker 3: Sam J. Miller and Mary Robinette Kowal.
15:58
Speaker 5: Sam J.
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Speaker 3: Miller and Mary Robinette Kowal, thank you so much for
16:02
Speaker 3: being on the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for inviting us. It's a real honor.
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Speaker 3: Well, we have a traditional first question on this show,
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Speaker 3: and so I guess we'll let you both answer one
16:13
Speaker 3: at a time. Mary Robinette, I'll go to you first.
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Speaker 3: If you could offer writers one piece of advice, what
16:20
Speaker 3: would it be? I know you could probably do a million,
16:22
Speaker 3: but pick.
16:25
Speaker 2: It would be to trust your own taste. You have
16:28
Speaker 2: been honing your taste for decades as a reader for
16:32
Speaker 2: your entire life, and you can trust that when you're writing.
16:37
Speaker 2: So don't try to write to someone else's taste. Write
16:39
Speaker 2: for your own taste.
16:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like good advice to me. Sam, how
16:43
Speaker 3: about you? What would you throw out there?
16:46
Speaker 6: Yeah, so that is great advice, and mine is sort
16:48
Speaker 6: of the opposite, but not it feels like it's not.
16:52
Speaker 6: It's you know, I feel like the thing that was
16:54
Speaker 6: hardest for me to learn, and that therefore the thing
16:56
Speaker 6: that I would advise, that I would give to folks
16:58
Speaker 6: is that community is everything. Like building community, bombing with
17:01
Speaker 6: other writers, making friends with other writers, understanding that other
17:04
Speaker 6: writers are not your competition, they're your allies, they're your support.
17:08
Speaker 6: Reading very widely among your peers and getting to know
17:11
Speaker 6: their work and sort of building with them. It's going
17:14
Speaker 6: to serve you so well, both as like a person
17:16
Speaker 6: who has a career in writing, but also like in
17:18
Speaker 6: the practical business of writing. So absolutely trust your gut
17:21
Speaker 6: and know that you're amazing, and also know that you
17:24
Speaker 6: know other people are going to help you get better.
17:27
Speaker 5: I like that. That's terrific advice.
17:29
Speaker 3: Okay, I want to hear about how both of you
17:31
Speaker 3: got started writing, So I'll change it up and go
17:33
Speaker 3: back to you this time first. Back to you first.
17:36
Speaker 3: That doesn't really followed, but you know what I mean, Sam,
17:39
Speaker 3: how'd you get started?
17:40
Speaker 5: Writing.
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Speaker 6: Yes, So my origin story as a writer is telling lies,
17:44
Speaker 6: telling lies so people would like me. I was very
17:49
Speaker 6: bad at sports in elementary school and didn't have any friends.
17:53
Speaker 6: But I went to a very secluded, isolated, rural farm
17:56
Speaker 6: school where no but like very few of my other
17:59
Speaker 6: my class it's had TVs. Let alone, like watch movies
18:03
Speaker 6: or so I could tell. I would tell people I
18:06
Speaker 6: had seen horror movies that I hadn't actually seen, and
18:08
Speaker 6: people would be like, oh, tell us about them, and
18:10
Speaker 6: so I would, you know, if I could. I found
18:12
Speaker 6: that if I stretched it out over many days, like
18:14
Speaker 6: from recess to recess, they would keep coming back and
18:17
Speaker 6: bring their friends. And so I would like, I haven't
18:19
Speaker 6: seen The Shining, but I had this whole weeks long
18:22
Speaker 6: saga of the movie The Shining, based only on reading
18:24
Speaker 6: the back of the video box at the video store.
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Speaker 6: So yeah, telling lies so people would like me is
18:30
Speaker 6: what I did in second grade and what I'm still
18:33
Speaker 6: doing now.
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Speaker 4: See the reaction of some of those friends of yours
18:40
Speaker 4: down the road when they actually watched the movie and
18:42
Speaker 4: they were like, this is not the thing like what
18:44
Speaker 4: Sam described.
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Speaker 6: I wonder, I wonder, but I did I did when
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Speaker 6: I when my first novel was published, one of somebody
18:52
Speaker 6: did comment like, oh, I remember you telling stories in
18:55
Speaker 6: second grade at recess, So I'm glad you're still telling stories.
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Speaker 5: Nice.
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Speaker 3: Do you suppose there were any there are any publishing
19:03
Speaker 3: writers who are actually good at sports in grade school?
19:07
Speaker 5: Who exactly would that be?
19:09
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, there are really, Yeah, I can't remember who,
19:15
Speaker 2: but I have run across them, and it's always a
19:18
Speaker 2: little bit confusing because they are deeply into sports ball
19:21
Speaker 2: and and it's it's very it's like there's always I
19:26
Speaker 2: know that it's allowed, I know it's allowed.
19:28
Speaker 3: But follow sports, but that's not the same thing as
19:31
Speaker 3: having done it. Well, yeah, anyway, Mary Robinette, how about you?
19:36
Speaker 5: What's your origin story?
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Speaker 2: So my origin story, I like, I don't remember a
19:43
Speaker 2: time that I didn't write one of my very early memories.
19:47
Speaker 2: I know that I'm in kindergarten because because I went
19:53
Speaker 2: to a different school for kindergarten, and I wrote my
19:56
Speaker 2: mother a story for Mother's Day about spaceship that was
20:04
Speaker 2: it looked like a bearded iris, so the tongue came
20:08
Speaker 2: down and the beard part was like the welcome Matt.
20:13
Speaker 2: So like, that's one of my really early memories, and
20:16
Speaker 2: I just I was one of those kids who wanted
20:18
Speaker 2: to do everything. So I was writing, I was in theater,
20:21
Speaker 2: I was in art, and then it just kind of continued.
20:27
Speaker 2: So I think I always been a storyteller, but I
20:30
Speaker 2: don't remember it. I just don't remember a time I wasn't.
20:33
Speaker 5: Yeah, I understand that too.
20:35
Speaker 3: My mother claims I was telling people I was going
20:38
Speaker 3: to be a writer when I was seven, which, you know,
20:41
Speaker 3: in a small town in Oklahoma would have been an
20:43
Speaker 3: unusual thing. But it's my mom, so we have to
20:46
Speaker 3: believe her, right, You two, this is an unconventional setup
20:51
Speaker 3: since you're both very well established, award winning science fiction authors.
20:56
Speaker 3: Sam has won a Nebula, Mary Robinette has won Hugo
21:01
Speaker 3: and an Nebula. Okay, that's just showing off really at
21:03
Speaker 3: that point. Now, the two of you, this is what's
21:07
Speaker 3: so wild. The two of you are teaming up, except
21:10
Speaker 3: not exactly because, if I understand it correctly, you both
21:13
Speaker 3: contributed separate science fiction crime stories. Right, how did this
21:18
Speaker 3: project come about?
21:22
Speaker 2: Well, we have the same agent, Seth Fishman, and Saga
21:29
Speaker 2: has been doing this really interesting thing where they've been
21:31
Speaker 2: experimenting with the doubles, which isn't that great? And so
21:40
Speaker 2: they've they're experimenting with them to see how they they're
21:44
Speaker 2: both yours.
21:45
Speaker 3: Now, thank you for fairness, I get it.
21:52
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So they're experimenting with this format as a
21:57
Speaker 2: way to celebrate their tenth anniversary. And I've done three
22:01
Speaker 2: versions of this. One is an anthology edited by Ellen Datlow.
22:06
Speaker 2: One side His Day, the Other's Night. The other is
22:09
Speaker 2: a single author Stephen grim Jones. Yes, same, but two
22:16
Speaker 2: different books. And then they were like, well, what happens
22:19
Speaker 2: if we combined two writers? And and so Seth was
22:25
Speaker 2: basically like, how do you feel about Space Moar? And
22:29
Speaker 2: I was like, I love it? What about you, Sam?
22:32
Speaker 2: How did that happen with you?
22:34
Speaker 6: Well? So Joe Montier, editor at Saga, had actually passed
22:38
Speaker 6: on Red Star Hustle like I had fully. I had
22:42
Speaker 6: fully grieved its loss and decided and realized it was
22:45
Speaker 6: never going to be published. And then then Joe reached
22:48
Speaker 6: out to Seth like maybe a year later, to say,
22:50
Speaker 6: you know, what is that still available? Because we're doing
22:53
Speaker 6: this new thing. And you know, I am actually a
22:56
Speaker 6: huge fan of the doubles format. I have been a
22:58
Speaker 6: haunter of used bookstores forever, So I had a lot
23:00
Speaker 6: of old it used to be a very common publishing format. Ace. Yeah,
23:04
Speaker 6: Ace Publishing used to do these doubles, but Tour revived
23:07
Speaker 6: the line in like the eighties, I think. So I
23:10
Speaker 6: had a lot of them, and I really loved the idea,
23:12
Speaker 6: both because I like getting two books for one and
23:14
Speaker 6: because they were often two different authors who were going
23:16
Speaker 6: to give you two different two really different things. And
23:19
Speaker 6: so I think it's I'm I'm shocked that this isn't
23:22
Speaker 6: more of a thing in publishing, and I'm really excited
23:25
Speaker 6: to be that we're sort of like part of this
23:27
Speaker 6: launch line of reevaluating and revisiting it. Although now it's
23:32
Speaker 6: a lot of pressure because I really want this to
23:33
Speaker 6: do well for my selfish reasons and because I want
23:37
Speaker 6: I want everyone to start doing doubles.
23:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, that'd be okay, everybody you heard this. Sam's been
23:42
Speaker 3: waiting at least a year for this. Everybody go out
23:45
Speaker 3: and buy this book right now, right.
23:47
Speaker 4: Laura, Yes, absolutely, I would like to see this take
23:50
Speaker 4: off too. I think that is super fun. I didn't
23:53
Speaker 4: I don't think I was aware of doubles, but now
23:55
Speaker 4: that I've seen this I'm like, yes, I want to
23:57
Speaker 4: get behind this too, so I'd like to hear about
24:01
Speaker 4: both stories. Sam, can you please tell us about the
24:05
Speaker 4: Red Star Hustle. I can get the words out.
24:08
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, So Red Star Hustle is about a very
24:12
Speaker 6: far future, outer space rent boy who finds himself framed
24:18
Speaker 6: for murder of one of his famous filmmaker clients, and
24:22
Speaker 6: so he is on the run trying to clear his
24:25
Speaker 6: name while a badass bounty hunter is trying to catch
24:30
Speaker 6: up with him, and she doesn't really think he's guilty,
24:33
Speaker 6: but she has a big secret she's trying to keep,
24:35
Speaker 6: and if she fails to bring in her bounty, her mother,
24:38
Speaker 6: who's the boss of her syndicate, is going to like
24:40
Speaker 6: start scrutinizing and might expose the sort of lie that
24:43
Speaker 6: she's been living. And so it's there. It's sort of
24:48
Speaker 6: like a you know, and morally ambivalent but very dogged
24:51
Speaker 6: pursuit that she's on. And along the way he falls
24:54
Speaker 6: in love with a bad boy resistance fighter and Vannigan's ensue.
25:00
Speaker 6: There's lots of fun. I really wanted to write something
25:02
Speaker 6: that was just like fun and pulpy and takes place
25:05
Speaker 6: so far in the future that like none of the
25:08
Speaker 6: issues while not non, but many of the issues that
25:10
Speaker 6: plague us as humans here and now have been left
25:13
Speaker 6: long behind. So this was just me trying to be
25:16
Speaker 6: like fun, and of course it did end up being
25:18
Speaker 6: like really sad and heartbreaking, because that's just where I
25:21
Speaker 6: end up no matter what I do.
25:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they're not wrong.
25:26
Speaker 4: That's fun heartbreaking, right, it's fun while it's sad and heartbreaking.
25:33
Speaker 2: I have read this and I am a big fan
25:35
Speaker 2: of it. And yes, he can make you laugh while
25:39
Speaker 2: you are sobbing. It's a real skill.
25:41
Speaker 4: Okay, now I have to read it. And Mary Robinette,
25:45
Speaker 4: can you tell us about apprehension.
25:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Apprehension was me exploring the world of Hitchcock.
25:55
Speaker 2: I was curious to see whether or not I could
25:57
Speaker 2: incorporate a lot of the things that Hitchcock was doing
26:00
Speaker 2: suspense in space. So this is the story of Bonnie Jean.
26:06
Speaker 2: She's a seventy eight year old grandmother. She's a neurosurgeon.
26:09
Speaker 2: She's on vacation with her son in law and grandson
26:13
Speaker 2: after the death of her child, and they are they're
26:19
Speaker 2: trying to forget, forget that loss. But they've gone back
26:24
Speaker 2: to a planet where she was a soldier forty years ago,
26:29
Speaker 2: and more specifically, she was a special Ops soldier. And
26:35
Speaker 2: then you know, we also have Shenanigans ensuing in hours too,
26:39
Speaker 2: because she gets accidentally wrapped up in a terrorist organization's
26:47
Speaker 2: plot when they kidnap her grandson, and so she has
26:53
Speaker 2: to pull up old training that she hasn't used in
26:55
Speaker 2: forty years with a body that is not the body
26:57
Speaker 2: she had.
26:58
Speaker 3: Then sounds like a great per You said, there is humor.
27:02
Speaker 3: Is there heartbreak?
27:05
Speaker 2: Yes?
27:06
Speaker 3: Mine mine has too much?
27:08
Speaker 2: No, mine has Mine has heartbreak. But uh, but there's
27:15
Speaker 2: you know, it's not all darkness. I joke that mine
27:19
Speaker 2: is Hitchcock in space and that Sam's is Raymond Chandler
27:22
Speaker 2: in space.
27:23
Speaker 4: Okay, I love that.
27:25
Speaker 6: I love that. I am a I am a huge
27:27
Speaker 6: Oh sorry, I'm a huge Hitchcock fan. And I have
27:31
Speaker 6: to say that this may Robin that does Hitchcock so well.
27:33
Speaker 6: In this book. There's so many beats that are like
27:35
Speaker 6: so like the secret whispered by a dying person, the
27:39
Speaker 6: like grief, the loss, the loss before that that, the
27:42
Speaker 6: like shit overshadows the story that happened before the story starts.
27:46
Speaker 6: You know, it's so good and.
27:50
Speaker 4: It sounds amazing.
27:51
Speaker 2: Thanks.
27:52
Speaker 3: Yes, Sam, I saw in your bio that you have
27:56
Speaker 3: what I would consider the two essential claims to fame
28:00
Speaker 3: for a modern successful author. First, your work has been
28:05
Speaker 3: scraped by AI. Second, your books have been banned in Florida, and.
28:12
Speaker 5: By the way, me too.
28:13
Speaker 3: You're not alone on both counts. Scared a count on
28:17
Speaker 3: either one, cared to comment on either one, I should say.
28:21
Speaker 6: No, this is just like what a crummy dystopia we
28:24
Speaker 6: are in right now. It's just like this is the
28:26
Speaker 6: best you know, Like, no, it's it's it's it's a
28:30
Speaker 6: lot of people sort of wear being banned as like
28:32
Speaker 6: a badge of honor, which on some level I do,
28:35
Speaker 6: But it's also just like like it's just there's jokes
28:38
Speaker 6: to be made, there's there's humor to be had in it.
28:41
Speaker 6: But just like you know the fact that like you know,
28:43
Speaker 6: this sort of like what what what people call I've
28:47
Speaker 6: seen people call generative AI uh money laundering for intellectual property,
28:54
Speaker 6: just like the way that like people's creative work is
28:57
Speaker 6: being strip mined and like the know, being like thrown
29:01
Speaker 6: into a stew and then like being like like spooned
29:04
Speaker 6: back out to people for other people's profit is like
29:07
Speaker 6: just so infuriating. And the fact that like, you know,
29:10
Speaker 6: the books of mine that have been banned are like,
29:12
Speaker 6: we're queer young adult stories. And the idea that LGBTQ
29:16
Speaker 6: young people in parts of this country just like aren't
29:19
Speaker 6: able to like see themselves and and and read about
29:23
Speaker 6: themselves and see stories that validate and empower them is
29:27
Speaker 6: it's so infuriating and so so saddening. So one tries
29:31
Speaker 6: to find the humor and the you know, badassness in it,
29:35
Speaker 6: but it's it's just a fundamentally a crummy and dismal dystopia.
29:42
Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, well, yeah, at least you could yeah
29:46
Speaker 3: some rationale. When I saw one of my books was
29:48
Speaker 3: on that list of what like six hundred books that
29:51
Speaker 3: have been banned in Florida, I thought, why that one
29:55
Speaker 3: like sixty some books? And I'm like, what's different? I mean,
29:59
Speaker 3: I don't think it belong in a kindergarten, but why
30:01
Speaker 3: that would be ben from a real library?
30:04
Speaker 5: I don't know.
30:05
Speaker 3: Mary Robinette, you've authored the Lady Astronaut series, right, and
30:12
Speaker 3: you have a podcast called Writing Excuses, So we should
30:16
Speaker 3: do a podcast swap sometime I'm just saying we should actually, Well,
30:21
Speaker 3: what I found most interesting you're a professional puppeteer.
30:26
Speaker 5: Is that right?
30:27
Speaker 2: That is correct?
30:28
Speaker 5: That's tell us about.
30:29
Speaker 3: Why I have that happened.
30:32
Speaker 2: Again. I was one of those kids who wanted to
30:34
Speaker 2: do everything, and so I had done puppetry as a
30:37
Speaker 2: hobby in high school, and I was doing it in
30:40
Speaker 2: college and was in the college production of Little Shop
30:44
Speaker 2: of Horrors as the giant man eating plant.
30:46
Speaker 3: You were a puppet, okay, great, yep, and.
30:49
Speaker 2: A professional puppeteer came up at the end of the
30:52
Speaker 2: show and I was like, wait, wait, people give you
30:55
Speaker 2: money to do this, and basically changed career choices on
30:59
Speaker 2: the spot. So I went off and I interned with her.
31:03
Speaker 2: I interned at the Center for Puppetry Arts in Atlanta
31:06
Speaker 2: and then went on to work for about twenty years
31:08
Speaker 2: doing this.
31:09
Speaker 5: Wow.
31:10
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's it's a wild ride. It's a
31:13
Speaker 2: lot of fun.
31:14
Speaker 3: I remember taking my darling daughter when she was fairly
31:17
Speaker 3: young too, because she loved musicals, so I took her
31:20
Speaker 3: to see a Little Shop. She was terrified. I kept saying, yes, puppet,
31:25
Speaker 3: but it didn't matter.
31:27
Speaker 6: No, that is that is yeah.
31:29
Speaker 2: Sorry, go ahead, you go.
31:33
Speaker 6: That is my favorite music. That is my favorite musical.
31:35
Speaker 6: I love it so much. Mary Robinette, were you the
31:38
Speaker 6: voice as well as the puppet performance?
31:41
Speaker 2: No, No, it's it's not actually possible to do the
31:46
Speaker 2: voice and the puppet too much, even if you were
31:50
Speaker 2: physically fit enough to do it miking you and not
31:53
Speaker 2: have it picking up all of the sounds of the puppet. Amazing,
31:55
Speaker 2: it makes sense. Yeah, so I've done seven different productions
31:59
Speaker 2: of it. I am addicted to it. I would do
32:01
Speaker 2: it again were I given an opportunity, and periodically I
32:06
Speaker 2: apply like like there's it's always like in the wrong city.
32:11
Speaker 4: Undergraduate degree is in musical theater performance. I love that.
32:16
Speaker 4: I love that we have that passion in common. But
32:21
Speaker 4: back to the writing. We always talk some about process, Sam,
32:26
Speaker 4: would you be willing to tell us how you approach
32:29
Speaker 4: a new project. Do you outline, do you just work
32:33
Speaker 4: from notes? Or do you just sit down and start writing.
32:37
Speaker 6: The interesting thing now that this is this is my
32:39
Speaker 6: fifth published novel, and and I've got like seventy something
32:44
Speaker 6: short published short stories under my belt. And the interesting
32:47
Speaker 6: thing at this point in my life as a writer
32:50
Speaker 6: is that it changes, right, that that my process now
32:53
Speaker 6: is not was not my process in my twenties or
32:55
Speaker 6: my thirties, and I'm now in a place where things
33:00
Speaker 6: are bubbling. It's always been that ideas bubble up, and
33:03
Speaker 6: I have sort of like things bouncing around in my
33:05
Speaker 6: brain and notebooks about like what about this superpower or
33:08
Speaker 6: what if someone what if what if this point changed
33:11
Speaker 6: in history? Like how would that change history as we
33:14
Speaker 6: know it? And so, uh, it's always been that the
33:18
Speaker 6: ideas would bubble up, and now I'm in a place
33:20
Speaker 6: where they're sort of fighting for attention. It used to
33:22
Speaker 6: be like there was one clear thing of like this
33:25
Speaker 6: is the novel you have to write next, And now
33:26
Speaker 6: it's kind of like, you know, these two things want
33:30
Speaker 6: to be my next novel, and they're like you know,
33:33
Speaker 6: I'm sort of like seeing them both in secret and
33:35
Speaker 6: being like, don't talk to the other one about this.
33:39
Speaker 6: So so yeah, it's it's weird and and also sometimes
33:42
Speaker 6: being like no, no, don't get so serious. This is
33:44
Speaker 6: just for fun. This we're just we're just playing around.
33:48
Speaker 6: So yeah, my my process now is pretty like me
33:52
Speaker 6: trying not to write another novel, uh, and to and
33:55
Speaker 6: to develop to let a project, let let thinks simmer
33:58
Speaker 6: and sort of explore themselves and figure them out.
34:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this might be the first time that
34:05
Speaker 4: I've ever been told the process is to try not
34:08
Speaker 4: to write. But hey, it's working for you, so I
34:13
Speaker 4: guess yay, good job, Mary Robinette. What does your usual
34:19
Speaker 4: writing day look like?
34:21
Speaker 2: Much like Sam, it changes a lot because I am
34:27
Speaker 2: essentially a professional freelancer. Right, there's writing, but I also
34:31
Speaker 2: have these other income streams. I have puppets, I'm an
34:33
Speaker 2: audiobook narrator, I teach writing, so there are all of
34:37
Speaker 2: these different demands. Plus, as you know, once you have
34:40
Speaker 2: a book out, you have to do all of the publicity,
34:43
Speaker 2: dog and pony show, which is enjoyable as this conversation is,
34:47
Speaker 2: but it takes time away. So I don't have a
34:50
Speaker 2: normal writing schedule. And one of the things that I've
34:54
Speaker 2: been working on over the last two years, I think,
35:01
Speaker 2: is trying to work with my brain a little bit more.
35:06
Speaker 2: I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was fifty, which,
35:10
Speaker 2: in hindsight, like so much of my life, makes so
35:13
Speaker 2: much more sense, and so it also explains why a
35:18
Speaker 2: lot of the writing advice didn't work for me, because
35:22
Speaker 2: my brain wasn't wired that way. So I've been trying
35:25
Speaker 2: to work on learning how to trigger a hyper focus
35:29
Speaker 2: on the thing I actually want to hyper focus on,
35:33
Speaker 2: and how to come out of it smoothly. So those
35:37
Speaker 2: are the things that I'm working on. I'm realizing that
35:39
Speaker 2: I'm much more of a binge writer than a slow
35:43
Speaker 2: and study. It's like, oh, this explains why Nano Raimo
35:46
Speaker 2: was where I wrote my novels. So like in hindsight,
35:50
Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff that's clearer. So for me,
35:54
Speaker 2: a lot of times what I do is I will
35:56
Speaker 2: poke at a story like Sam making notes, sort of coalescing.
36:03
Speaker 2: The less of the story I understand, the more of
36:06
Speaker 2: it I have to outline. And the more of it
36:09
Speaker 2: I understand. The less I have to outline, the more
36:11
Speaker 2: I can just discover things. And so writing for me
36:14
Speaker 2: is usually a mix of those two things. I believe
36:18
Speaker 2: that every writer has to plan and has to discover.
36:22
Speaker 2: It's just where in the process you do each of
36:24
Speaker 2: those things varies.
36:26
Speaker 3: Hey, this has been a blast, But before we wrap
36:29
Speaker 3: it up, can I ask both of you what should
36:32
Speaker 3: we expect to see from you next? Or what are
36:35
Speaker 3: you working on now? As the case may be Sam,
36:38
Speaker 3: what's next from you?
36:40
Speaker 6: Well, I thought it for a while. But the thing
36:44
Speaker 6: I did, I did just I did just finish a
36:45
Speaker 6: werewolf novel, which I have always I've always loved werewolves,
36:50
Speaker 6: but have never found my way into them. But Stephen
36:54
Speaker 6: Graham Jones, who also wrote one of the Saga doubles,
36:58
Speaker 6: wrote my favorite werewolf novel, which is Mongrels, which was
37:01
Speaker 6: the first time that I was like, oh, this you
37:03
Speaker 6: could use were wolves to tell stories in ways that
37:05
Speaker 6: I hadn't really been aware of or hadn't thought about before. So,
37:09
Speaker 6: you know, who knows what will happen with it, but
37:11
Speaker 6: but that is that is what I ideally that will
37:14
Speaker 6: be the next thing that that goes out into the
37:16
Speaker 6: world in some form.
37:18
Speaker 3: Mary Robinette, how about two?
37:21
Speaker 2: My next thing is actually a translation I translate out
37:27
Speaker 2: of Icelandic and I have translated a novella for Hilder
37:35
Speaker 2: knutztat Here which is called dead Weight, and that comes
37:39
Speaker 2: out in twenty twenty six, and it is she's a brilliant,
37:46
Speaker 2: brilliant writer, and it's it's a psychological horror novella which
37:55
Speaker 2: is really really chilling and phenomenal. It has it has
38:03
Speaker 2: one of the single best chapters I've ever read.
38:07
Speaker 3: Wow, what's the title or do you know yet?
38:10
Speaker 2: Since dead Weight?
38:11
Speaker 5: Oh? You said that before? All right?
38:13
Speaker 3: You know how many times have I asked this question, Laura?
38:16
Speaker 3: This is the first time somebody said, well, I'm translating
38:19
Speaker 3: an Icelandic noveldcast. This is We got to get you
38:26
Speaker 3: guys back sometime. This has really been fascinating. Anyway, thank
38:31
Speaker 3: you all for being here. I appreciate it very much.
38:34
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us.
38:36
Speaker 6: Been a pleasure.
38:43
Speaker 3: Just a few parting words. We've posted all the information
38:47
Speaker 3: about next year's writer con Cruise, which takes place in April.
38:51
Speaker 3: This time we're touring the Eastern Caribbean and seeing some
38:55
Speaker 3: sights I've never seen before. Much less on one of
38:57
Speaker 3: these cruises. A lot of fun stops relief from Fort Lauderdale.
39:03
Speaker 3: It's eight days this year, so it's a little bit longer.
39:06
Speaker 3: Gives us a little bit more time to work with
39:09
Speaker 3: writers and aspiring writers. We won't schedule sessions when the
39:15
Speaker 3: boat is in port. I know you want to go
39:17
Speaker 3: check out the tropical vistas and whatnot, But when we're
39:20
Speaker 3: at sea and there's a lot of that, we will
39:23
Speaker 3: have over twenty hours of writing instructions, some of it talk,
39:27
Speaker 3: some of it small group one on one. We're bringing
39:31
Speaker 3: Catherine Sans, a fantastic agent who has sold books for
39:36
Speaker 3: many people, including me. She'll be on board and she
39:40
Speaker 3: will happily talk to every single participant in the program,
39:44
Speaker 3: So don't miss out. Plan to be on the cruise
39:47
Speaker 3: with us March seventh through fifteenth. Visit the writer Con
39:51
Speaker 3: website for more information. I'll put a link in the
39:54
Speaker 3: show notes. All right, and if you haven't joined the
39:57
Speaker 3: writer on Facebook group yet, hey, do it now? Do
40:01
Speaker 3: it today and join this great community of writers posting
40:05
Speaker 3: almost every day, stay in the loop in between podcasts,
40:10
Speaker 3: and know what's happening in the world of books and publishing.
40:13
Speaker 3: I'll put a link to that in the show notes too,
40:16
Speaker 3: But really all you need to do is go to
40:18
Speaker 3: Facebook and search for writer Con.
40:21
Speaker 5: All right.
40:23
Speaker 3: Until next time, people, keep writing, and remember you cannot fail.
40:29
Speaker 5: If you refuse to quit. See you next time.