Latest / Echoes & Edges / Sourdough, Plants & the Mystery of Becoming with Lindsey Morris

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Sourdough, Plants & the Mystery of Becoming with Lindsey Morris · Echoes & Edges

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hey, it's Patria. If you've been listening to this podcast
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: and find yourself recognizing pieces of your own story, the
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: patterns of secrecy or shame, the questions about your worth
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• 0:20
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  Speaker 1: by supporting both the recipient of care and the caregiver,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: who are all people that have personally walked the walk
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: of healing and have turned back to extend a hand
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: to others. To you, the person thinking about checking this out,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: You are not alone in this reach out. There is
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: a way forward. Welcome back to Echoes and Edges, The
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Broken and Beautiful Podcast. The Broken and Beautiful is a
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: collective of healers on the hunt for beauty, meaning, and transformation.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I'm Patria, your host for Echoes and Edges and the
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: owner of The Broken and Beautiful. I'm so glad that
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: you're here. If you joined us for part one. We
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: ended by asking a simple question, what if there really
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: is more available to us than survival?
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Today?
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Lindsay invites us into one of the most surprising parts
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: of our own healing journey, not through another book or
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: another therapy technique, but through sour dough, bread, plants, soil, creation,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: and the slow rhythms of ordinary life. As you'll hear,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: creativity isn't simply about making beautiful things. Sometimes it's the
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: language our souls begin speaking before we have words for
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: what's changing inside us. Let's jump back into the conversation
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: with Lindsay we've talked before, and you've talked about your
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: inner world coming into like physical expression.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: What has that looked.
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: Like for you? What would you be willing to share
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: about that?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: It has looked many ways? So where to start? I
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: think sourdo might have been the first place I recognized
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: it happening, you know, unbeknownst to be, and then at
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: a point realized what was going on. Sourdough has to
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: go through such a process to become the bread that
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: we love and want to eat and want to smell
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: and want to see. You know, it has so many
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: like beautiful features, but it has to go through you know, fermentation, stretching, folding,
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: cold proofing. It's so long and there's nothing about that process.
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: If we were that dough. I don't think that we would, like,
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: you know, if the end goal is wow, beautiful edible bread.
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: The process is so up and down and unpredictable. So
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: there's something in that that as I was learning how
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: to get bread on the table, I met part of
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: myself in that. So that internal experience of like not
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: understanding why this sitting was the doorway to freedom. It
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: didn't feel like that, you know, I feel like there's
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: something of that and the sour dough that, you know,
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: leaving it under a towel for twenty four hours feels
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: like what are we doing here?
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: You know, nothing's changing.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: That's interminable.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it takes forever. The stretching and the folding
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: is like way too much.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's hard also sometimes.
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: Depending on how much plastically, Yes, it's challenging, you know,
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: especially I don't have very good hands, So yeah, stretching it,
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: folding it on top of itself, over and over, and
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: I just think, like how much angst healing can take
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: and facing you know, the things in us that need
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: movement and need care and we don't want to look
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: and we don't want to feel, and we don't want
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: to name. There's just something that feels similar in that process.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: So you know, I just found myself actually hanging out.
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: Probably had some bad loaves of bread because there was
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: too much folding and stretching, but like, this feels true.
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: But as I could stay with it physically, I felt
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: care internally and like permission to stay with it internally.
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  Speaker 4: So for me, it felt so good to have something
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: physical on my counter that was also representing something I
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: couldn't talk name or hold. You know, I don't know
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  Speaker 4: if this this feels like it's making no sense, but oh.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: It's making so much sense.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: I have so many images popping through my head as
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: you're talking, and one of them is the window of tolerance.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, you it feels like you are describing this
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: sort of metaphor, like I wouldn't think of bread as
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: a metaphor for a window of tolerance, but kind of it.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: You know, the way that you're describing is.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Like, obviously we don't, you know, work our emotions over
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: that way, but they are worked over that way, like
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: they have to be folded and sit and punched down.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you punched down sourdough or not.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: But you know, and put in, you know, put in
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: whatever the steps are that you're talking about, the process
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: of growing our ability to be hopeful, the process of
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: growing our ability to endure beauty. Yeah, you know, beauty
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: is a rich I mean, it's a rich experience, and
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: so that just strikes me as a really beautiful metaphor
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: to explain what it is that's happening in our maybe
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: our brain are psyche wherever our emotions or whatever parts
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: of our brain are working together for that particular.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: Emotion at that particular time. That's what's coming to my
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: mind while you're talking.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: And you never know if you're going to get a
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: beautiful loaf at the end of it. I mean, I
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: assume eventually you get better at you know, kind of predicting.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you have some idea how it feels, and
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: all the steps you did what it might create.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: But no, I would still say it's a little bit
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: of guesswork.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: That's amazing and so.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Full of life.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: You know what else? I mean, So there's the sour dough.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: What else comes to your mind when you're thinking about this?
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: Yes, well, plants. I have a couple of my favorites.
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: That's a real favorite, a prayer plant, and I love
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: to propagate plants. So taking off a piece and making
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: it into its own plant. You know, the goal is
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: to get it to grow roots. So yeah, and just
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: taking a plant out, giving it a new pot, new soil,
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: breaking up its roots. You know, that is just a
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: physical experience that I feel mirrors you know, the inside,
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: especially life when things aren't working anymore, the pot and
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: the dirt, you know, have to go. We have to
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: have a new container.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: There's something too, I guess I just am am imaging
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: while you're talking about dirt and the connection that dirt
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: gives us with life itself. You know, we started talking
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: about those words are full of life and food and dirt.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, these are the things of our physical life.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: That's import our physical life, right, Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: There are elements of nature and creation that I think
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  Speaker 4: when we connect to there's something there, you know, for
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  Speaker 4: us to hold us when we don't have words or
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: understanding or a path. Science and nature have that path
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: like they're doing it in all their ways all the time.
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  Speaker 4: And so for me, like in baking and in plants,
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: I've been able to connect to that and it just
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: reassures me, like things, force is so much bigger than me,
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  Speaker 4: you know, or at play, and I'm.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Also part of that.
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  Speaker 1: Like yeah, well, would you say that that's what your
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: structure of rigidity and you know, staying small was trying
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  Speaker 1: to get to. That's what it's trying to create, is
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: what the dirt and the food actually give you. Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: So there's a freedom like yeah, yeah, to let let yourself,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: go in those processes, find yourself in the processes. Yeah,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: do you think creating helps you understand yourself better or
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: yourself differently than before?
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: My knee jerk is under stand No, I want to
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: say no, okay, but connect with.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Be with yes.
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  Speaker 1: But the distinction, Yeah, it's almost like you're pushing back
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: on the idea of predictability, you know.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, and the more I see, the more I
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: don't know that's the truth.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean.
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: By endiogram number two be one, Like, the more I see,
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: the more I'm like, I'm not sure I am what
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: I've always thought.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: So ah uh huh.
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  Speaker 4: I'm not sure that the creating brings that, but it
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: does bring me connection. There are yeah, moments I feel
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: like I know what this is. I'm not sure what
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: all of it is? What's this part? And what's can
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: you say more?
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Like, I feel like there's more there if you would
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: wish to say it, and if not.
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  Speaker 3: I thought's enough.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well I think this is probably desire.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, Oh, this and me is something that I want,
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  Speaker 4: And when we have to stay small, we can't want
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  Speaker 4: very much. I know the truth, And it's really scary
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: to want more and so if I'm creating, I'm probably
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: connecting with a desire to be part of something, to belong, right,
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: to play, like, to to.
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  Speaker 2: Benefit, and to give.
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: All of that is there. So that's what I mean, Like,
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: I connect to that, and I'm like, Okay, this is living.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: I don't really know what it means or what's going
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: to happen, but this is living.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: It's mysterious.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's not really a lot of understanding in that
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: in terms of you know, math.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, which is why there's a process from going from
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: scarcity stuck to mystery because who would who would make
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: that jump?
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: We have to go slow and realize, oh, this is
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: actually a beautiful thing and I'm safe here.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Because well, yeah, what is it about mystery that gives
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: you that that feeling?
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: You know, like, yeah, what is it about that idea?
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: Well, there's no like pride in mystery. There's no I've
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: got this, there's.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: No Yeah, that's so true. Let me explain this. It's
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: just wonder.
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: I oh, yeah, which is scary when totally yeah, it's
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: not safe and.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah it's unpredictable.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it goes exactly opposite of what our
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: survival is about, and to be fair, survival is what
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: it is on purpose, like you know, for anybody that
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: finds yourself caught in survival structures and really with genuinely
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: no way out like blessings, Yes, because it is a
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: resource to be able to play and to find these
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: things out. I mean, we have to have resources to
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: be able to do that, you know. And so if
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: there's a listener listening who is just feels like this
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: is a million miles away from your life, please take
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: what fits you and adapt it to your life, because
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: there is a way in which you are made to
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: create and live abundantly no matter where you find yourself.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: It makes me think, And I've told this story a
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: little bit before, and it seems to come up in
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: my conversations about creativity generally. But there was a few
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: years that my husband and I were going to Haiti
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: for some mission trips and doing some medical mission stuff.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: And one of these particular trips, our next door neighbors
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: went with us, and it was to this day, I
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: mean this has been fifteen, twenty years ago whatever, and
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: our kids still talk about it and it was just
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: such a meaningful time.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: But on that trip we saw see I'm going to
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: put this.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: It's such a privileged thing to say it was such
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: a meaningful trip, because what I'm about to say is
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: the truth is in that developing country, where there's a
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: lot of instability, there's not as much infrastructure as we have,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: food is scarce. There were children eating dirt cakes, you know,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: that's what they had for food.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Their mother lovingly made them dirt cakes and served them
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: dirt cakes, you know. And so I just think.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: If if you happen to be a person ever that
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: that can't identify even with the luxury of having time
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: to make soured dough bread or propagate plants or do
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: a podcast recording. You know, we are for you and
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: whatever that looks like for you. We want you to
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: glean from this what fits for your life. And I
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: just don't know why that's coming up so strongly, but
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I just want to mention that.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: M lindsay, what, Yeah, would you want to add anything
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: to that?
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: I think I think it's beautiful and I don't think
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: it has to be anything large. Our breath is creativity
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: and if we're alive, we have it, and yeah, connecting
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: to the smallest versions, I mean, even our skin, you know.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, is creation.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: Living in is our biggest organs ourself.
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and we can connect to those things even dirt, right,
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: that's right, dirt, that's right. So I think that even
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: in the smallest and that's how we're it has to
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: start the smallest ways. Yeah, are are actually the biggest.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Because like say more, well, because we can access it.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's right. Yeah, so big we can't digest it.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: What's the point When it's tiny and we can fully
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: see and feel something tiny it's ours.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we can metabolize it and use it. You know.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: I often think about these, you know, like like we
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: talk about the idea of taking a big bite, you know,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: like my eyes are bigger than mystmic or even just
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: in a conversation, well I bet off more than.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: I can chew or whatever.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: And that applies here too, and where especially if desire
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: gets a little a little bit of a like I say,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: for the first time in a long time, it can
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: want more really fast. And so a lot of people
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: come in to like coaching that I do, or to
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: whatever this experiences where they're you know, risking hope maybe
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: for the first time in a long time, but they
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: can want to just finish get done, get through it?
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: How do I get to the other side of this?
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: You know? And so I just I think what you're
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: saying about small breathing steps is so good and it's
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: the hard it's the.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Hardness work, isn't it.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, I don't love this question because it could sound
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: really religious. But the question is has creation taught you
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: something about God's character? But I think I would just
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: say about God, has this abundance or this movement or
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: this transformation or healing taught you something about God that
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: you didn't know that words couldn't teach you.
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: That's a really good question, And to have words to
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: explain it, I mean, yes, I can feel inside me. Yes,
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: I love that I have a story to tell. Oh, yeah,
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: to edit it if it doesn't fit, But go. I
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: love the sky and cannot see it from my home
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: that I live in now. So I'm always like, is
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: there an opportunity to see a sunrise or a sunset?
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: You know, I will take it because it's not something
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: that I get to see easily. So I set apart
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: twenty four hours to go stay by myself somewhere and
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: process a transitional season. And I went somewhere, I knew
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: I would be able to see the sky, and I
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: told God, you see me doing this, I feel like
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: I'm obeying.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I would really like.
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: To see some sky the first night, not a cloud
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: in it. It was still beautiful as it would be,
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: but not what I was hoping for. And I felt
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: really frustrated with him, as unlike you could make this
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: happen in my belief system.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: The next morning, I get up for sunrise, same thing,
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: you know, not a cloud in the sky. Is still beautiful,
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: but disappointed and I felt him whisper, because he always
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: whispers the important things. Say, I set everything in motion
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: for sunrises to happen, but I sit back and watch.
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: Would you like to sit with me? Like takes my
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: breath away. That piece of.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Who he is.
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: I don't think he could have given me pre creating
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: with him, but in that moment, it's like my heart
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: opened up to see such different character. And like, I
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: don't have words. I can't tell you what that God is,
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: but it's not one who has to control. And that
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: was not a god I knew before that moment.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, that invitation.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Say that again? Will you sit back and watch with me?
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: He says, I set everything in motion, like all the
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: science that needs to be there for this whole sunrise
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: and something to happen. I did that, and now I
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: sit back and watch. Would you like to watch with me?
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: I don't know that I want a theologian to like
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: run that through.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: I'm not.
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: That was my experience in my moment, you know, But
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: that is what I have learned of God is whatever's
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: in that, He's not about controlling it or performing or
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: forcing it.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: You know. The beauty, like he said, was so inviting.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's it. It's invitation. And I think that
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: that is like it is theology. I mean, that is theology,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure it could be debated, but why would
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: why would it be?
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: You know? That's what I come back to is that
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: these are the moments that.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: The veil fins and we touch heaven and we touch
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: this experience with the divine, with God. And it reminds
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: me of a story too. So I'll share a story
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: too about invitation where I used to I don't know
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: if I've ever told you this, Lindsay, but I used
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: to sleep.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: I used to go to sleep with Romans eight open
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: on my face.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I did amazing.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I was trying to get Therefore, there is now no condemnation.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Condemnation for those who are in Christ use for the
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: law of spirit of life set them free from the
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: loves and depth. And I would put it on my
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: face and I would just like, you're if you're safe,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: you're safe, You're safe. As I was kind of coming
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: out of this reductive religious, you know, experience that I
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: had grown up with where I just always felt in
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: trouble by God like I did. Jesus has always been
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: my friend. God is another story in my the way
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: I would just again, we're not going to talk theology,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: just experience. This is the way I experienced the other
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: than me that created me. And one night I'm I'm,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: you know, doing my thing, trying to get my guilt
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: to go away, my my enmeshed guilt. And I fell
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: asleep like that, and about five o'clock in the morning,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I heard God whisper, come, come, pray, come sit with me,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, no, I'm too tired, you know, and
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: I say no. I said no to him a fair
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: amount in the early days, just like I don't know why,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: I just said no.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: No's where I could use my no, I guess.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: And so the next morning I felt so guilty about
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: not obeying, you know, I was I didn't obey him
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: and go do the thing with him in the early morning,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: and so I got myself up, I set my alarm,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: I went downstairs. I sat in my chair and I
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: closed my eyes and I said, I'm so sorry, and
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: he whispered, It's just an invitation.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Mhm, It's just.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: An invitation, right, Yes, I know it changed my brain.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: That there in it.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: Yes, right, yes, exactly, Like wait, what like you're not
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: mad at me?
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like if you said it, it's not an exhortation
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: that then we're going to create systematic theology about it.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: It was like not like it was like I want
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: to be with you, and I'm not mad at you
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: if you don't want to be if you don't want
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: to get up at five. You know, like there was
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: something like you described and shifted in my brain with that.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: And I think that those experiences with God cannot be overstated.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: They cannot be overstated because some of us don't have access,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: especially trauma survivors who might have a whole host of
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: people around them, but internally are so locked down don't
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: have access to another person that's that safe, And in
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: my experience, God has met us there over. I've seen
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: that over and over and over again. And that maybe
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: is how I would say I've experienced something different of God.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: I'm answering my own question. But I love this conversation.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: It's beautiful.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yes, that moment and side where it's more
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: about His love than it is about what we're doing
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: or what we can bring or what we're not doing.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just like being with Okay, I made you, can
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: I be with you?
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Like the sunset?
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: I love that so beautiful.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: One of the things I love most about this conversation
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: is that Lindsay never treats creativity like a performance. Instead,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: she talks about participation, participation with creation, participation with God,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: participation with our own becoming. There's something profoundly healing about
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: remembering that we don't have to manufacture transformation. Sometimes we
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: simply learn to cooperate with it. Next time, we'll take
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: this conversation even deeper. We'll explore why receiving can feel
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: so much harder than giving, how trauma shapes our ability
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: to trust ourselves. The role of meaningful rituals in healing
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and what grace begins to feel like when it moves
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: from an idea into an embodied experience. It's one of
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: my favorite parts of our conversation, and I hope you'll
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: join us. If this episode resonates with you, follow or
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: subscribe to Echoes and Edges on your favorite podcast platform,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: leave a five star review, and share with a friend
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: who might need a gentle invitation to self understanding. Echoes
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: and Edges is produced and edited by Stephen R.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: Sanders.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Music promoted by Envado. Echoes and Edges is part of
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: the Vivid Livid podcast network, where bruses speak and healing
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: finds its voice.