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04: What is the Line Between Love and Self-Abandonment? · Magic Thread Media

• 0:01
  Dr. Pavini Moray: I have a question that I want to ask you, Kristien. What do you imagine would happen if you stopped tracking the alcohol? Welcome back to Salty Sweet. I'm Pavani More. 25 years ago, Kristien and Stijn played in the same band for a few months, but at that point, neither of them was ready for anything more. When they finally found each other again, they made a confession that very first night, and Kristien built a whole future on what she heard. So today we're looking at that future and what it has been costing her to keep that dream alive. Some of what I say to her is hard to
• 0:51
  hear, and I say it anyway because I believe that she's strong enough to take it. Let's get into it.
• 1:05
  Welcome to Salty Sweet, the healing podcast for couples on the brink. They came in barely speaking, salt burning their tongues. After years together, their love was drowning in heavy seas. This season, you'll follow one real couple through their healing journey, their stories, wounds, fights, pivotal moments, and the deep currents shifting beneath years-long dynamics. With Dr. Pavani Marais, somatic coach and R.L.T. practitioner, 15 years of guiding couples through troubled waters, who, in their own partnership, has chartered the course to dawn. Will this couple make it? Stay with us to
• 1:51
  find out. This is Salty Sweet.
• 2:14
  Stijn: We actually met 25 years ago, something like that. We played in the same band actually for a few months, and I don't know, but I don't think that if if it would have been something at that moment, I don't think we were ready for that.
• 2:39
  So I think we needed some time.
• 2:44
  Dr. Pavini Moray: So you just had this experience of meeting her. 25 years goes by. You come back into connection, and then what?
• 2:57
  Stijn: Then what? Well, the first thing. This is the first thing, not the first thing we said to each other. The same evening, I kind of immediately opened up that I be aware I drink two bottles of wine every day.
• 3:13
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Oh, so you were already thinking that this was an issue?
• 3:18
  Stijn: I wasn't proud of it.
• 3:19
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Yeah.
• 3:22
  Stijn: So yeah, somewhere in my mind, I thought maybe give heads up.
• 3:29
  Please be aware there is an issue here.
• 3:34
  But she immediately told me I smoke marijuana. Yeah,
• 3:45
  Kristien: I do remember asking you, "Is that how you want to spend the rest of your life? Is that your plan? And then you said, "No, this is not how I want to live my life.
• 4:00
  That that was what I needed to hear, and I imagine also telling you that I want to quit smoking pot. Can you remember some of that?
• 4:16
  Stijn: I know you asked me. I didn't know it was the first day.
• 4:19
  Kristien: Yeah, I do remember that.
• 4:21
  Stijn: Okay,
• 4:24
  not me because I was drinking.
• 4:26
  True
• 4:35
  Dr. Pavini Moray: So, Kristien you received that, and I'm just guessing. Well, tell me what was, what did you make up about that when he said that?
• 4:47
  Kristien: Then I'm then I'm all in. Then we're on the same trajectory. That we'll see how it how it goes, but we have the same goal to become sober.
• 5:03
  Dr. Pavini Moray: So that's the story you made up.
• 5:05
  Kristien: Yeah, that's what I completely made up. I'm
• 5:12
  Dr. Pavini Moray: just trying to figure out what I wanna where I wanna go with that, because it makes so much sense to me that that's what your heart was longing for, like oh, here's this amazing person. He said that this is a problem. I know I have this problem. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we walk down this path to sobriety, hand in hand? Like he could help me, I could help him.
• 5:45
  Kristien: Yeah, somewhere in my mind, that was the story.
• 6:00
  Dr. Pavini Moray: What do you imagine would happen if you stopped tracking the alcohol?
• 6:13
  Kristien: I think for me it would bring more space to to be with me and to be with my projects, I might sleep better. I I imagine that Stijn would feel less. Yeah, I just think it's well. I see an opening now that you are here and we're addressing this. I see a possibility for me stopping to track it.
• 6:50
  Dr. Pavini Moray: So there is a tension that I think is worth naming because I have heard you on several occasions, Kristien , say, I'm all in. I'm all in with him. He's the one for me, right? And yet, you have this part that longs for a shared sobriety, and you're not with a sober person,
• 7:22
  right?
• 7:25
  Tell me more about that tension. Like how, not about him, but about the tension.
• 7:34
  How do
• 7:35
  you hold that inside of you? I want this. I want this more than anything. I long for this. I long for the thing that is possible after that, and and the person that I want to be with isn't that. May never be that. We don't know. Might be. Well,
• 7:59
  Stijn: it's been a grief process. A grief. cried on on several occasions. Like, oh wow, what are you grieving? Um,
• 8:12
  Kristien: I guess the the story I was holding on to, the image that I had, the possibilities that I see in a life of sobriety, the connection I imagine that becomes even deeper. I see so much more fun, so much more ease between us. Like all of those desires, wishes, or dreams at certain points, just became something I that would hurt me if I held on to it, and I also have a strong A strong desire to accept anyone the way they are, including Stijn and he has so much beauty, so much beauty that I'm letting go of the dreams and desires I that are attached to a life of sobriety. I'm also
• 9:25
  grieving the potential that I I see in him. And according to my story, it doesn't come out because of the drinking, because of the low self-esteem that is attached to that because of the wounds that are underneath it.
• 9:44
  Stijn: Yeah.
• 9:50
  Dr. Pavini Moray: May I speak frankly with you?
• 9:53
  Kristien: Yes.
• 9:55
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Your self-abandoning. How's that to hear?
• 10:11
  Kristien: Tendency of mine-it's nothing new. But the way you said it, and especially in this moment, it really touches me. I feel sadness coming up. I'm wondering how how how can you tell from what I just shared that I'm self-abandoning? I would like to understand that.
• 10:36
  Dr. Pavini Moray: You said I am willing to give up all I long for in order to be with this person who I love deeply, but who is not sober.
• 10:50
  Kristien: I didn't even see that.
• 10:56
  Unknown: Wow.
• 11:06
  Kristien: Yeah,
• 11:11
  Dr. Pavini Moray: and if we play this, and Stijn, I am saying this with all of the love in my heart that I have to give and offer, but if we play this out, where I see this go, ultimately is a path of resentment. You will resent him, and then you will resent Her and you can do that. I mean, people live their whole lives like that.
• 11:52
  Kristien: Can you explain to me why he would resent me? Is it because of the controlling part that would keep showing up?
• 11:59
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Yeah, because like you want to accept him, but you actually want him to be different.
• 12:06
  Stijn: Right,
• 12:10
  Dr. Pavini Moray: and you know he may want to be different for himself, but if he changes for you, he's going to resent it. Yeah.
• 12:20
  Kristien: Okay, I I get that. I feel my body relaxing. I know it might sound weird, but I like the truth, as you know. I like to see reality as it is, and I um I can totally see what you were speaking about. Can totally see us moving or heading toward a life I don't want to live. I've seen my parents live it, and I don't want to live it out. I did have a conversation with Stijn about if he wouldn't, if this would never change, if this alcohol topic would be would stay as big as it was, or is. I said then I can only commit to a part time relationship, where I spend half of my time doing
• 13:21
  these things that nurture me. That I need. I need a kind of emotional intimacy, which I would love to find in our relationship. But if it cannot be there, then I can only commit to part-time relationship.
• 13:47
  Stijn: Can I push back on that? Yeah, you're threatening him. Oh,
• 13:58
  Dr. Pavini Moray: do what I say, Or else,
• 14:08
  Kristien: yeah, yeah, I can see that. That's my voice of desperation.
• 14:17
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Yes, yeah, you want Him, but you want him to be sober, and it's like-I mean, we can couch it like I want that for you. Your life is going to be so much better if you're sober, but it's like we have to just be really honest about. It's like us. It's what I want. I want him to be sober. That may or may not be what he wants for himself.
• 14:52
  Kristien: Well, we have this conversation where I own that, where I feel the impact on our relationship. The impact is. Has on me, and I at multiple at different times I ask him, "Do you want to be sober for you? And the answer was yes.
• 15:12
  Dr. Pavini Moray: No, not yet. The answer is the honest answer is not yet. There's a part that wants to be sober. Instead, please jump in if I'm. I don't want to speak for you, okay? That's gross, but like, there's a part, right? You have a part that wants to be sober, and you have a part that's not ready yet. It's getting ready. Here, I hear a lot of getting readiness, but it has yet to like actually take the steps, right? We have some things in place. You're going to talk to your therapist, but it hasn't happened yet, and it's going to be a process. It's like you know, I don't think it's
• 15:50
  fair to ask him that right now. You know, like you have to. The question isn't about him, Kristien . It's really, in my opinion, about you, and it's the question you don't want to ask, right?
• 16:09
  Kristien: What is the question?
• 16:11
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Do you have a sense? I mean, I can tell you what I'm thinking, and again, it's just a guess, but I can tell you what I'm thinking.
• 16:16
  Kristien: So, just to make sure I'm on the same page with you,
• 16:20
  Dr. Pavini Moray: what question do you not want to ask yourself right now?
• 16:24
  Kristien: What question don't I want to ask myself right now?
• 16:27
  Stijn: Yeah, the
• 16:28
  Kristien: question could I see myself without Stijnas my partner?
• 16:36
  Dr. Pavini Moray: That's right. Has nothing to do with the love, or who he is as a person, or his beauty, right? But it's: Can I live my life like this? Do I want to give up my dreams? Am I willing to self-abandon? Am I willing to risk that I will resent this beautiful human because I'm not brave enough to stand up for what I really want? How's that to hear?
• 17:21
  Painful,
• 17:22
  Stijn: yeah.
• 17:25
  Kristien: It is indeed what I don't want to look at because I cannot imagine a life without him.
• 17:33
  Stijn: Yeah,
• 17:35
  Kristien: and I have a history of love addiction and code it got in the studio. Um. And it feels so right. He feels so right. We're so good together.
• 17:50
  Dr. Pavini Moray: I see that. Yeah.
• 17:57
  Kristien: So no, I I cannot imagine that yet. I don't want to, unless we try to to look at every other possibility. Is
• 18:14
  Dr. Pavini Moray: that my self-abandonment speaking? I mean, I think you really love him. You will really want it to work with him. You really wish that you could just let this go. Yeah,
• 18:30
  Stijn: yeah.
• 18:34
  Dr. Pavini Moray: And the part that can't let it go is the part that's not self-abandoning. The part that has you.
• 18:48
  Kristien: So, what is your advice for me? Oh no! Oh no! Tell me what to do. No way.
• 19:06
  Dr. Pavini Moray: I think you know.
• 19:13
  Kristien: Not sure. I'm feeling very blurry right now.
• 19:16
  Stijn: Yeah, I know. Well, let's say it this way: you will know, right? Like,
• 19:26
  Dr. Pavini Moray: then you either will get sober or you won't. You know, and that's up to you. Completely, 100% your choice. You know, you have amazing love in your life. You have somebody who is willing to stick with you as you go through that process, and it may be enough, and it might not be enough. You know, we'll see. The proof will be in the pudding, right? I think love is rare. You know, I think it's really special, and it's really rare, and we it it deserves to be protected, and so. My wish for you all would be to don't go down the path of resentment. Whatever you do, right?
• 20:07
  You can you can protect your love in lots of ways. It might mean that you're not romantic partners and you still love each other deeply. I don't know. I have no idea what the future holds for you. But protect the love. Don't go down the path of resentment. Don't be like your mom. You know where she's living in a relationship with an alcoholic, and she's tipping toeing around, and you know you don't want that life for yourself, and you don't have to have that. Like that's generational healing, right? She had that. You have something different, and I just would, you know, try and respect the love
• 20:41
  as much as possible by not getting resentful and not letting yourself make choices that lead towards resentment, which are,
• 20:50
  Stijn: in
• 20:51
  Dr. Pavini Moray: particular, staying in love with his potential. I think that's a bullshit thing to do. Like love him for who he is right now, you know, yeah. Because otherwise, that's like that's not a safe love. Like, oh, you can do better. I know you can. You know what I mean? It's like, no. You can. You can absolutely ask him to change things. You know, like we do. We like, oh, you know, would you be willing to whatever? Like, no. How are you doing, Kristien?
• 21:55
  Stijn: I'm always sad when she's sad, and I always blame myself for it. So that's a bit where I am now, and I
• 22:05
  Kristien: heard him respond with that he's sad when I'm sad.
• 22:08
  Stijn: Yeah, yeah. The
• 22:10
  Kristien: codependency shows up, right?
• 22:12
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Well, the and the he feels to blame, right?
• 22:15
  Kristien: Yeah, right.
• 22:16
  Stijn: Right.
• 22:16
  Kristien: I know that.
• 22:20
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Can we do can we do a piece of work around
• 22:22
  Stijn: that? Yeah,
• 22:23
  Dr. Pavini Moray: yeah. And when you feel to blame, do you feel bad about yourself? Yeah, like I'm a piece of shit. Like oh, I made her hurt. I made her sad. Like that. Yeah. Okay. You don't like it when she tries to take responsibility for your drinking, right?
• 22:55
  Stijn: When she takes responsibility for my drinking.
• 22:57
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Yeah, when she's counting your drinks, or
• 22:59
  Unknown: oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You
• 23:00
  Stijn: hate that, okay? When you take responsibility for her feelings, you make it about you. It's the same thing. Okay. The
• 23:21
  Dr. Pavini Moray: practice. is to allow her to feel how she feels, have compassion without making it about you. So I'd like you to try that right now, and I'm going to have you turn to face her, Kristien . I'm going to have you face forward, and just be feeling whatever you're feeling. Instead, I want you to turn your body to face her, and just so you can take her in without her looking at you. So go ahead and turn towards her, and just what I want you to do is say in your head, there she is, and here I am, and really separate these two. And you can put a hand on your own heart for the
• 24:16
  here I am part. So there she is, and here I am. Let's keep saying it in your head. There she is, and here I am, because it's like you're connected, but you're not responsible for how she feels. That's that's her responsibility. Those are her feelings. This is your piece of the codependency, right? Of like, there she is over there. She's feeling sad. Here I am. I was sitting here listening. Didn't do anything in that moment. Sitting here, I feel compassion for her sadness. Feel sad that she's sad. That's not my fault. I'm not to blame. And just that can be a hard sell, right, to your inner
• 25:05
  child. Can be like, oh no, no, no, we're to blame. So just see if you can bring in some care to your own inner child. Like, let's just try this on. I know we're really used to feeling like we're to blame. That's an old pattern, but let's just try this experiment, this weirdo experiment that Pavanis suggesting, is that we just
• 25:30
  Stijn: allow Kristien to feel how she feels, and we're not responsible. We're still in relationship, but we're not Responsible.
• 25:46
  Dr. Pavini Moray: She is there. I am here. Breathing. She is there, and I am here. I'm not responsible. I am compassionate. And stay with it, and tell me what you're noticing.
• 26:12
  Stijn: Well, I think that I always feel the need to respond to it. Otherwise, I'm not doing good.
• 26:33
  I need to fix it. I think.
• 26:35
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Yeah, totally. And how is the experiment of not fixing it, just allowing it. Oh yeah, there she is, feeling like that. Here I am. I'm caring. I'm compassionate. I'm right here, but I'm not doing anything to try and make her feelings change. I don't have to fix it. Let's try that on. It's just an experiment. You can go back to the old way. Just experiment with it. How is it? Have you just let it be?
• 27:16
  Stijn: I'm always wondering. You ask me to see how it feels. I'm immediately wondering how it feels for her.
• 27:28
  Dr. Pavini Moray: You jump right to her.
• 27:30
  Stijn: Yeah.
• 27:31
  Yeah.
• 27:35
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Same thing as counting drinks.
• 27:38
  Stijn: Yeah.
• 27:42
  Dr. Pavini Moray: You're up in her business. Come back into the into the business of being Stijn. How is it for you to just let her feel how she's feeling, not having to fix it?
• 27:52
  Stijn: It would make it a lot easier for me. Oh,
• 27:55
  Dr. Pavini Moray: right in this moment, you're not fixing it. You're just being with her as she's feeling that, but you're not responsible for fixing it. How is it right now?
• 28:07
  Stijn: It would make it a lot easier for me.
• 28:09
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Yeah. How? But I'm asking you in this very moment. How is it to just let her feel how she's feeling?
• 28:27
  Stijn: It maybe wrongly feels like I'm taking distance, which I'm actually not.
• 28:34
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Yeah. So you're worried that she might perceive it that you're taking distance, or do you actually feel distant?
• 28:44
  Stijn: No, I don't feel distant. So yeah, maybe it's me worrying that she might think. Yeah,
• 28:50
  Dr. Pavini Moray: yeah, yeah. Like, how is if I don't jump in there and try and fix it, and I'm just here and present and let her feel what she feels. I'm worried about our connection.
• 29:04
  Stijn: Yeah.
• 29:09
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Okay. So just try this again. Just an experiment,
• 29:15
  Stijn: sweetheart. I'm here. Can you feel me? Say that to her. Can you film?
• 29:29
  Kristien: Not gonna look at you. It's a funny face. Please try again. Can
• 29:39
  Stijn: you film? Yeah,
• 29:45
  Kristien: it's actually easier for me to feel my own feelings
• 29:51
  Dr. Pavini Moray: when you don't withdraw in the shame cycle and making it about you. Feel your presence. What you do like, not what you are glad you're not having. Say what you're appreciating. This,
• 30:07
  Kristien: I really like how you can let me have my feelings and still be with me physically, emotionally. Just you're here. You don't walk away. You're here. I like that.
• 30:24
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Great. How's that stand to here?
• 30:37
  Stijn: Well, it's an exercise because you can't just Stop doing what you've been doing all your life. But I understand that it's that it's not helping her to be
• 30:51
  Dr. Pavini Moray: no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 30:52
  Stijn: Thinking about oh, is he okay?
• 30:55
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Stop, stop, stop. What I'm asking you is, how is it to be present to check in, you were worried about her. She says, "Yeah, I like it. You're present. You're letting me feel how I feel. You're not fixing me. I like it. How's that to hear?
• 31:16
  Stijn: Good. Yeah, it's good.
• 31:25
  Dr. Pavini Moray: You both came into this relationship in a particular role, and on your end, Kristien , it is to be the monitor, to be the supervisor, right? And that was long before Stijn. You were in this role in your family, yeah, yeah. And for what you want, for the intimacy that you want, you have to figure out how to get out of that role.
• 31:54
  Kristien: True,
• 31:56
  Dr. Pavini Moray: right? Like you can't be supervising Stijn and be like intimate, mushy gushy, lovey dovey partners with them, right? Like those are far apart. How does the term codependence work for you?
• 32:15
  Kristien: It's my middle name.
• 32:21
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Are you familiar with Al-Anon?
• 32:25
  Kristien: No,
• 32:26
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Alcoholics Anonymous is. I mean, we all know what AA is, but like Al-Anon is for loved ones, parents, friends, spouses, siblings, anybody who has a really important person in their life who is dealing with substance abuse, and it's a place where you get to get support for looking at your addictive behaviors around codependence.
• 32:57
  Stijn: Okay,
• 32:58
  Dr. Pavini Moray: yeah, and they have meetings online all over every time, and it might be a really helpful. I mean, there's also Coda, Codependents Anonymous. I mean, I think any group support where you can hear other people's stories and how other people are navigating it might might be really helpful in supporting you and stepping around or navigating with Sen around this and and not abandoning the relationship, not abandoning yourself, and also like where are my boundaries with this, right? Yeah, would you be willing to go to a meeting before now in our next session?
• 33:38
  Kristien: Yeah,
• 33:39
  Dr. Pavini Moray: just check it out. You both came into this relationship in a particular role, and on your end, Kristien , it is to be the monitor, to be the supervisor, right? And that was long before Stijn. You were in this role in your family, Yeah, yeah, and for what you want, for the intimacy that you want, you have to figure out how to get out of that role.
• 34:12
  Kristien: True,
• 34:12
  Dr. Pavini Moray: right? Like you can't be supervising Stijnand be like intimate, mushy, gushy, lovey-dovey partners with them, right? Like those are far apart. I would love to hear from each of you one thing that you're taking away from this session.
• 34:57
  Kristien: I'm taking away the self-abandonment. Oh my God! It's it's way more present in the life than I imagined it to be.
• 35:15
  Stijn: That's my mind again. I'm taking with me that it's that she deserves to live the life that she wants to,
• 35:40
  Dr. Pavini Moray: and so do you.
• 35:44
  Stijn: So do I.
• 35:50
  Dr. Pavini Moray: Okay. So pull up a chair because this was a big session for me too. I asked Kristien if I could speak frankly, and then I told her that she was self-abandoning. I didn't say that lightly. She had just described letting go of her dreams, a shared sobriety, the deeper connection, all the fun and ease that she can see so clearly, and she called it acceptance. But what I was hearing was a woman willing to give up everything that she is longing for to stay with a man who she loves deeply, who is not sober. When I reflected it back, she said she didn't even see it. And
• 36:28
  self-abandonment is sneaky like that. It loves to dress up as acceptance. And then came the part-time relationship. She told me she'd said to St that if nothing changes, she can only commit halfway. I pushed back and called it what it was-a threat-and she owned it right away. She called it her voice of desperation. Threats almost always come from desperation, from a part that wants something badly and doesn't believe it can ask for it straight, and the question that she's not wanting to ask herself is the one that we teased last time. Can I see myself without Stijn as my partner? Can I see
• 37:12
  myself without Stijn as my partner? She can't imagine it yet. And what I want her to understand is that the part of her that can't let go of her dream is the part that has not abandoned her. Stint surprised me. He is sad when she's sad, and he blames himself. And when I asked him to simply let her feel her feelings, he jumped straight into her experience. He hates it when she counts his drinks, but he also takes responsibility for her feelings in the exact same moment. Both of them are up in each other's business. Both of them learned these roles long before they met. Kristien was the
• 37:51
  supervisor in her family, and Stin grew up with a father who drank excessively. So each of them walks away with homework. We'll see what's going to happen. My wish for both of them is simple. Love is rare. Protect it, whatever shape it ends up taking, and stay off of that path of resentment. Before we go, here's the relational minute. Today's is about loving someone's potential. This is a concept I learned from Elizabeth Gilbert way back in the day. Kristien said she's grieving the potential she sees instead, the beauty that she believes would come out if the drinking stopped. So many of us
• 38:29
  fall in love with who we believe our partner could become, and it feels hopeful. It feels even generous. Underneath, it's a way of wanting someone to be different while telling ourselves that we accept them, and here's where that leads: you wait for the change, and you wait and you wait and you pray, and then you resent them when it doesn't come. And if they do change, they resent you for it. So there is this balance between loving someone just as they are, supporting them, cheerleading them into who they are becoming, but it has to be from who they want to become, not from who you want to
• 39:07
  become. If loving your partner's potential is alive in your relationship, I want to normalize it. It's, of course, right? We all want the best for the people we love, and just notice where it's bringing tension. Is it bringing more? Is it uplifting them, or is it bringing more tension to you and to your relationship? Next time, what's been living in his nervous system makes it into the room. If any of what you heard today landed a little too close to home, you don't have to wait for it to get worse. Whether you were driving in your car or on your walk, some part of you already knows
• 39:55
  something needs to shift. So let's have a heart-to-heart. Conversation. Let's see how I can support you in having a happy relationship. Visit pavanimoray.com and book your free clarity call again. That is pavanimore.com.