Latest / Man in America Podcast / How ”Science” is the Trojan Horse for the Techno-Marxist Takeover — John G. West Interview

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How ”Science” is the Trojan Horse for the Techno-Marxist Takeover — John G. West Interview · Man in America Podcast

• 0:02
  Seth Holehouse: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Man in America. I'm your host, Seth Holehouse. So if we look at what's happening around us with COVID, even before COVID, the push for science, everything, you can see that if you take a step back that science and really scientism, the religion of science has been used, it's been weaponized, it's been controlled, taken over by enemies, whether you wanna call them the communists or the globalists or whatever you wanna call them, Satan himself perhaps. But you can see how science has been used to push forth an agenda of technocracy, of Scientocracy, which is controlling us and by saying that, as Fauci said, I am science. Right?
• 0:46
  Trust the science. And so to make sense of what's happening and looking back into history at the the people like C. S. Lewis or George Orwell who warned us about this, I'm joined today by John West, who is the vice president of the Discovery Institute, but he's also an author, prolific author, editor. He's made documentaries and films really about this exact topic.
• 1:11
  And he's also an expert in the constitution. And so this is gonna be a discussion where we're gonna be looking at how does Darwinism, which is another thing that he really focuses on, Darwinism and eugenics and scientism and the constitution and the modern day, how does it all converge? And where are we at? What's the hope look like for the future? So, folks, I think you're really gonna enjoy this interview with John West.
• 1:33
  Before we get started, folks, make sure you're following me on social media. In most platforms, it's Maninamerica. On Twitter, it's Maninamericaus. If you're watching this on Rumble, which it won't be on YouTube because we talk about the vaccine, but if you're watching it on Rumble, please two things. One, give it a thumbs up.
• 1:51
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• 2:00
  Three things. Leave me a comment. Let me know, you know, in the middle of the show, whenever you feel comfortable, put a little comment. Let me know what you think of this interview in the comments on Rombo. I'd love to see that.
• 2:09
  Alright, folks. Let's go ahead and jump into this interview with John West. John, thank you so much for joining us today. It's really it's a pleasure to have you for this discussion. It's also an honor to have you because you've been interviewed on all the big the big television stations, and you've done a lot to get some very important information out there.
• 2:27
  So it's it's great to have you on the show.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Well, Seth, it's an honor to be on your show, and thank you for wanting to talk to me.
• 2:34
  Seth Holehouse: Absolutely. So before we dive into, I think, the meat of our discussion, which is gonna be really getting into transhumanism and scientism and social Darwinism and eugenics and the whole combination of all that, can we start just with a brief background of yourself so that way, the people that aren't familiar with you or your work just can help make sense of where our discussion's going.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Sure. I'm vice president of a think tank called Discovery Institute, which is based out of Seattle. And I do a variety of things there, but probably most known for I'm managing, director of the Center for Science and Culture, which I co founded with Philosopher of Science Steve Meyer back in the 1990s. So that's sort of a center within discovery. I also for twelve years was a college professor at Seattle Pacific University.
• 3:20
  I chaired the Department of Political Science there. My work has focused on, in the early part of my career, was focused really on religion and politics in America in the early 1800s, sort of from the founding of the 1790s to the first half of the civil war generation. But then in the last probably ten to fifteen years, I focused on the challenges of science, scientism, what C. S. Lewis would call Scientocracy in our society in a number of books and videos.
• 3:51
  Books including Darwin Day in America, The Magician's Twin, which focuses on C. S. Lewis and scientism, documentaries like Human Zoos, which talks about scientific racism. So that's just a little bit smattering what I'm about. So Discovery Institute is probably known for two things.
• 4:07
  On the economic freedom side, George Gilder, author of Wealth and Poverty and sort of the the guru of supply side economics, that he's one of our main fellows. But then on the, yes, it's showing on the fixed homelessness, we're dealing with a lot of things that, unfortunately, a lot of conservative think tanks aren't addressing, the homelessness crisis. And then on the science side, we're probably most known for having people like biochemist Michael Behe, mathematician Bill Dempsey, many others who think that there's positive evidence of design in nature. And that sort of an unguided Darwinian process isn't adequate to explaining who we are or how we came to be.
• 4:48
  Seth Holehouse: That's a good way to lay a foundation for the discussion. I think it's so it's interesting because as I've looked at your work, and you've got some really great documentaries and May documentaries in addition to your books, but really that that detail, I think, the truth of science and Darwinism and how science science is really being used to bring us into a technocracy or I think what C. S. Lewis referred to as a a was it scienceocracy? What was the word that he used to to describe it?
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Well, he used various ones. Technocracy in one essay, but in later letter, he called it Scientocracy. Scientocracy. Actually, that in better.
• 5:27
  Seth Holehouse: And so I want to start with a quote that you had in your documentary about him. And this was something that he put into an essay, the willing slaves of the welfare state. And this quote now keep in mind, this was written gosh. Do you know what was this written, like, in the sixties or the fifties? Or
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: In the early fifty end of the forties, early fifties. So
• 5:50
  Seth Holehouse: Okay. Where he said he talk referring to talking about politicians. He said, this means they must increasingly rely on the advice of scientists till in the end, the politicians proper become merely the scientists' puppets. And, you know, the the as I've looked into CS Lewis, and you obviously know his work inside and out, it's amazing how it's almost like he saw the future. It's like we go back and we read 1984, we watched the 1984 movie, and it's like, how did George Orwell know exactly what we're gonna be experiencing or Brave New World with all the intricacies of that or any of these these people is a handful of them.
• 6:32
  It's almost as if they saw the future. And, you know, reading some of C. S. Lewis' earlier works, or really, guess, you know, in general, his works, what he saw coming and and the concern that he had over the control of science, I think, is really amazing. So in your view, if C.
• 6:52
  S. Lewis was alive right now and he looked around and he saw, you know, Fauci with documentaries on him and on the cover of the magazines. And even on the religious candles, like the the the vote of candles, you had the religious Fauci on the candles. And you saw not only Fauci, but also how the propaganda of trust the science. Right?
• 7:14
  And now even how Fauci says I am science, but then how that science is being used to control us to say you're forced to wear a mask because science says so. You're forced to take a vaccine because science says says so. I mean, what how do you think CS Lewis would look at our world today and and react to it?
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it would seem in a way right at home with what some of the things he experienced and certainly the things that he foresaw. Right at home in a horrible sort of way. I think he'd be horrified, but I think he would recognize it. I do want to say though, your point is right about the things that he foresaw, but I don't want to downplay the fact that Lewis and Orwell, for that matter, were actually reflecting on things that were happening in their own society that were going in a certain direction that, for some good reasons I can get into, sort of didn't go to the full extent, but partly because people like them were warning against it. If you go back to the early 1900s, late 1800s, early 1900s, science was taken over by this materialistic mindset.
• 8:23
  You know, science came out of what I would call a Judeo Christian worldview, thinking there was a creator. That means that things were rational. We could understand them. That was the impetus for a lot of original science. But by the eighteen hundreds, you had a lot of scientists try to fuse, their views with materialism, saying that everything that we know of just goes back to blind matter in motion.
• 8:44
  There's no God. There's no soul. Things like religion or morality are just these after effects of either natural selection or some other blind process for physical survival. And when scientists tried to move in that direction, of course, Darwin was one of the keys in that. But when they moved in that direction, then they thought, well, if we're just blind matter in motion, and we're learning how to manipulate matter, well, we can recreate our world to whatever we want to be.
• 9:11
  Because there really isn't any God, we're God. And we understand once you understand the levers of the material aspects of society, you understand everything. And so what you saw the rise of in the latter part of the nineteenth and early twentieth century was the rise of, well, progressivism, which we're still dealing with, of people who thought, well, we should be governed by experts. And who are the biggest experts of all? Scientists.
• 9:35
  Because they have unlocked the mysteries of life in the universe. And so who should we trust to govern us? Scientists. And this gave rise to, the crusade known as eugenics, which was this idea that we could harness Darwinian evolution and and guide it to create both a super race, but also get rid of the people we considered they considered less valuable, which happened to be, people who were non white, people who were poor, who were white and poor, people you know, a whole list of people that they, thought, should be gotten rid of. But that was led by the leading evolutionary biologists at Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, in Europe, places like Oxford and Cambridge.
• 10:18
  And so, in Lewis' own time, he actually saw how science was being used as a pretext for authoritarianism. And of course, you saw this in Nazi Germany and in Stalin's Russia, both of which harnessed the claim to be engaged in scientific planning, that they're going to plan us. In fact, that's one of the things that Lewis was talking post World War II in that essay, Willing Slaves of the Welfare State, is this idea that human beings now are in the place of God and through science can plan everything and tell you what to do. And basically, the politicians simply need to hand things over to unelected bureaucrats who are experts trained scientifically to tell us what to do. And in fact, is leading up into World War II.
• 11:08
  That is what was happening both in America under FDR. It was happening in Nazi Germany. It was happening in Stalin's Russia. The good news of that is things were so horrible that happened, especially what Hitler did, is that post World War II, there was a pause button placed on it. People were so revolted by what Hitler did and, to a lesser extent, what Stalin did.
• 11:32
  They should have been equally horrified. It's just that we had a lot of Marxists here who were, you know, covered up what Stalin did. But people were so revolted that sort of the train sort of slowed. And Lewis was one of the people who helped, and George Orwell and others were those who were really warning about this is where the train is going. We need to stop it because they saw the horrors in their own era.
• 11:56
  But now what we've seen were the beginning of a new century now, the last couple decades. And it's like we learned nothing from the period of 1900 to '19, say, '45. It's like we're reliving it, but with even worse tools. And so I do think that the whole COVID era with Fauci, and of course, are mugs and shirts that people had, in Fauci, we trust, which was, you know, rather than God we trust, we're gonna replace the motto. I mean, this is an idolatrous sort of view of science.
• 12:26
  Now, I want to say science is a good thing. I think it came out of Judeo Christian worldview. Lewis would be the first to say science is a good thing. But if it's not encased in a larger moral framework, it can become a very bad thing. And so, scientism, or what I called actually well before COVID, rise of totalitarian science, sort of claims of people in the name of science that science allows us is the only method of achieving any sort of knowledge about anything.
• 12:57
  And if that's the case, then we should basically hand over to scientists or really people claiming to speak for science, often they're not really speaking for science, but claiming to speak for science to rule. And that's the case for Scientocracy that Lewis was warning about in the 1940s and 50s, actually as early as the late 1930s he was warning about it. And that is the world in which we live, unfortunately.
• 13:22
  Seth Holehouse: Yeah. It is. And, you know, if you take a step back and you look at science and really what has become the scientism, the Scientocracy, or, know, was it science? Scientocracy. Scientocracy.
• 13:36
  Right? So if you look at what's happening with that, you look at how evolution and atheism merge with modern science. Right? And where it really is just it's fact, like, to them. Like, it's like, this is the truth.
• 13:50
  It's like, oh, okay. And they've defined this as the truth. But even you're looking at atheism as that, you look at a lot of the leading scientists, you look at a lot of the, you know, entire scientific, you know, faculty departments at colleges, etcetera, are in a large part oftentimes atheist. They really go hand in hand. Now if you then look at and look at, okay, the roots of that of a lot of the atheism is really kinda rooted in Darwinism, and Darwinism goes back to, obviously, Charles Darwin.
• 14:18
  But then you look at how Darwin inspired Marx, and you look at, you know, Karl Marx, and you look at Marxism, and you look at then as that develops into communism, whereas communism is really similar to modern scientism, where there's it it's almost a cult. You know, it replaces God. There's a there's an atheism. And lot times I say, actually, well, communism isn't really atheist. It's actually they hate God.
• 14:46
  Right? It's not that they say, well, there's not really a God. It's actually like, you know, Marx vowed to destroy God. Right? And so as you kinda come into the modern world, you know, I I'm one of those guys that believes in the wild theory that there's a group of people that wanna implement a global communism.
• 15:02
  Right? Call it a new world order or a one world government or, you know, whatever you wanna call it. So when I look when I look at this, and this is, you know, my where my question is leading to, what do you see the relationship as between communism and modern scientism? Do you believe that behind science, the modern science that's been really usurped and taken over, like a lot of our other industries, like our education system, our Hollywood, you know, communists have done a great job of subverting and taking over a lot of the main pillars of our society. So do you believe that at its root that the modern scientific, you know, science you know, scientism, etcetera, been taken over by communists, and it's now being used as a tool like a Trojan horse to bring in a global communist technocracy.
• 15:55
  Folks, I've got a quick message for you. Right now, the world is very, very actively going through a process that the experts are calling de dollarization. And look, I've been talking about this for well over a year now, but maybe you're now starting to see it in the mainstream because they're now talking about it because it's really happening. What does this mean? Well, there's a few factors, but there's two main factors.
• 16:17
  One is that the BRICS nations. Okay, this is Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, and a whole coalition, they are actively getting rid of the US dollar. They're stopping their trade in the US dollar, and this is significant because the dollar's losing its status as the global reserve currency and as the petrodollar. This is what gives our dollar its value. But the other thing is that we have an enemy that's within our own government, Biden and his administration, they are actively working to destroy the dollar.
• 16:49
  And you can see it in their actions that they're not trying to save the dollar, they're actually trying to destroy it because they want to roll out their central bank digital currency. So you have these two forces coming in both the same time working to destroy the dollar because what happens when that dollar gets destroyed? Well, literally, your life savings, if they're sitting in the dollar, whether it's in a savings account or a bank account or the stock market or an IRA or a four zero one k, those savings, that money could literally be wiped out in a matter of days, weeks, even a couple of months. We're already seeing it with inflation, which is gonna be much, much worse. If you're seeing the writing on the wall and you're thinking, what can I do to protect myself?
• 17:30
  Well, there's a few recommendations that I always have. One is just to make sure you've got your food. If you have land, you know, ammunition, whatever it takes, real tangible assets. But fundamentally, the thing I recommend most is precious metals, gold and silver. Look.
• 17:45
  Precious metals have survived the collapse of currencies, the rise and fall of civilization. And also a big factor in this is that the BRICS nations, their new currency they're introducing to replace the dollar, a lot of experts are saying it will be backed by commodities like precious metals. And so you can see there's gonna be a stabilization and I believe a dramatic increase in the value of precious metals. Not to mention, look at the back the past six months, we're seeing, you know, 30% plus increase in the prices of silver and gold. So if you would go back and say you put a hundred grand into silver six months ago, it could be worth well over a hundred and 25, a hundred and 30 thousand dollars because the dollar is losing its value.
• 18:23
  So folks, if you want someone that you can trust for buying your precious metals or gold and silver, I would highly recommend doctor Kirk Elliott. So doctor Kirk Elliott is a good friend of mine, he's a strong Christian patriot. He understands what's happening in the world. He's got two PhDs, one in theology, one in economics. So it's the perfect blend of understanding realistically money in the end times.
• 18:46
  So if you wanna set up a free consultation with Kirk's team, head on over to goldwithseth.com. So again, that's goldwithseth.com or call (720) 605-3900. Again, it's goldwithseth.com. You go to the website, you scroll down, there's a simple form that you fill out right there. You just put your email, name, contact information, and that sets you up for a free wealth consultation where you can talk to either Kirk or one of his experts to really understand what your options are.
• 19:18
  Or you can just call (720) 605-3900 to take action today.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I think ideologically, scientism, la Darwin, Marxism, a la Marx and and Lenin and everyone else. And then I'd say postmodernism or whatever it's called nowadays, which really flows from Nietzsche. I'd say, you know, Darwin, Marx and Nietzsche form this unholy trinity that they connect with each other. So Marx was very clear.
• 19:55
  I mean, Marx was a German, and Germans thumb their noses down at English people and everyone who's not German. Having said that, even though Marx said in his crude English style, Darwin still got something fundamentally right, which is both Marx and Engels appreciated Darwin for basically showing in nature the grounding for what they consider the class struggle. And so, certainly, the denial of teleology and purpose in nature, the effort to show that we're just blind matter in motion, and then changing survival of the fittest to the class struggle. All of these things were things that Marx appreciated about Darwin. And so, was a deep ideological connection there.
• 20:41
  And I think the expertise state, which isn't just among communism, it's among socialists, it's among progressives, and in some sense, they all meld together at some point. But this benefit of secularist expertise and that ordinary people are stupid, and that we should be guided by the secular experts, which just happen to have our ideological beliefs, that is something that joins them. And for me, unless I wouldn't say that I believe there's a sort of global conspiracy or anything. I do think they're like minded people, and they have like minded things, and they have differences, but they do have a lot of similar beliefs. And so, I think that the people who most want the government to control everything are allied with this sort of scientific framework that says that science is the new authority, that's melded with government.
• 21:38
  And that's why you actually see in their rhetoric, they often say, well, science says this, or science commands this, or science requires that we do this, or that you're being anti science. They really do believe that science is sort of the new, like in the Middle Ages, if you wanted to get people to do something, say God says, even if God didn't say it. You just said it. Well, now you say science says, even if, like with masks and other stuff, the science is at best ambiguous. If not, on the other side, you just claim it, then people do it.
• 22:08
  I will say, I'd say the people who want more government power are smart in understanding that, and it plays into their things because who gets to appoint the experts? And it's interesting, pre COVID, say 2016, '20 '17, '20 '18, surveys showed that overwhelmingly Americans were placing more and more trust in science and claims made in the name of science. Now, I would say, fortunately, that some of that has gone down since it's covered at least in certain parts of the population. But that tells you why we went through what we just did, because so many people, if someone says I think a lot of Americans believed in what I call the myth of the white lab coat. You know, scientists are and the people who speak in the name of science are they're just neutral people, and they don't have any axe to grind, and so you could just trust them like your family doctor.
• 23:04
  Well, but we've done overwhelming surveys of the leading scientists, and they don't look anything like most of the American public. They're overwhelmingly either atheist or agnostic, or if they do believe in religion, it's a sort of progressive religion. They're overwhelmingly with one party, not the other, and it's not the Democratic Party. They're overwhelmingly I mean, they're not like and so when they're making these public policy claims, it's not just these neutral people. They have this grid that they're very and people should be concerned about that.
• 23:37
  But again, most Americans have this idea: white lab coat, neutral. In fact, one way you know this is some people may remember, this is a little bit humorous, when Obamacare was passed, when he was rolling it out in the public event for it. Do you remember what he did? You may know this. He staged on the Rose Garden lawn a gathering.
• 23:59
  They brought in all these people who were supposed to be doctors, and they handed them white lab coats. This was a made up you know, some of them were doctors, but they didn't come in their white lab coat to the White House. They handed them white lab coats because they wanted the photo op of all these people standing with Obama wearing white lab coats because they understand the iconography and the emotional significance of that in people's minds. White lab coat, neutral, objective, we can trust. Well, I think a lot of us have realized, a lot of people have now realized, but not everyone, unfortunately, that just because you have a white lab coat, just because Anthony Fauci had a white lab coat or Francis Collins for that matter, does not mean that anything coming out of their mouths was worth listening to.
• 24:44
  Seth Holehouse: Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned that science the trust in science where it was at pre COVID. And have you seen has, you know, Rasmussen or any other, you know, polling they done any other polls about where trust in science is right now?
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen some polling. So, it's polarized. So, I'd say if you're on the rightward, you're now a lot more skeptical than you were. If you're on the leftward, you're now even more embrace it. Now, having said that, I think even across right and left, there's still a lot of trust in medical doctors, which I think, again, there are good medical doctors and not.
• 25:32
  And so I still do think that there is a lot of, even on both sides, people who trust a little more than they should probably.
• 25:42
  Seth Holehouse: Yeah. You know, absolutely. And, you know, so I wanna talk a little bit about what's happening now with this push for transhumanism. Because, you know, that's to me, that's the next evolution of this. Because the the dictators have known, right, that they or they've always sought new ways of control.
• 26:02
  And for control, they need surveillance. And the ultimate surveillance is if they can have something that's surveilling you at the biological level, right, which really is is transhumanism. So I'm gonna play a little clip from Yuval Noah Harari, who is has really become almost the prophet of the the globalist. He's he's kinda like the scientific adviser where he's talking about and he's really he's really revered, you know, amongst the the atheist intellectual circles. He's almost like a a god to them.
• 26:33
  And hearing him talk about, it reminds me of, you know, some of the stuff that CS Lewis was talking about. You know, him talking about how, you know, we are you know, the the God is not the God in the clouds up there. It's the God that is in the the cloud of the information technology that we're building. So I'm gonna play this clip, and then we can we can kind of go into what you take away from it.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: The really big thing is hacking human beings. To hack human beings, you need a lot of biological knowledge, a lot of computing power, and especially a lot of data. If you have enough data about me and enough computing power and biological knowledge, you can hack my body, my brain, my life. You can reach a point when you know me better than I know myself. And once you reach that point and we are very close to that point, then democracy, the free market as we have and actually all political systems, also authoritarian regimes, We have no idea what what happens once you pass that point.
• 27:41
  Seth Holehouse: And that's the that's the frightening thing for me is that it's almost like the first time they tested the atom bomb. Right? It's they didn't know what was gonna happen. Like, they thought it could have, you know, ripped apart the matter for all that we know and destroyed everything instantly. And that's the that's the frightening thing is that when you look at and you listen to I've I've listened to a lot of what he's talked about.
• 28:02
  I've got Klaus Schwab's books on the fourth industrial revolution. You can see where it's going. And so how do you like, so you have, say, that the scientists in the white lab coats. Right? So, you know, the the Fauci's are saying, you know, trust the science.
• 28:16
  Trust the science. But then you also have the people like Harari that are almost like the modern day prophets, except they're not, you know, prophets representing a a spiritual message of, you know, you know, here's the word of God coming to me, etcetera. But they're they're prophets of almost the AI god, you know, talking about what the AI is gonna be like in the future. And so when you see Harari talking like that, how does that fit into what you're witnessing with the scientism and the and the push towards technocracy?
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Well, the first thing I think when I see that is this is the latter coming of eugenics. The eugenicists in the 1900s also proposed they were going create a race of supermen, and that is, again, allied with this planned society. So the problem is we have even more forceful tools now. So it's not actually new, but it's new because our technology is new and he's a new cast of characters. The other thing that I'd like to point out is what as to what's motivating this.
• 29:23
  The the the transhumanists start out from the idea that humans are bots to begin with because we're the product of this this purposeless process of, you know, random mutations and glitches acting on by natural selection, survival of the fittest. And so that's produced a very botched human being. And there's nothing sacred. Rather than the human beings reflect fantastic design of a loving Creator, which if you believe that, you might treat human beings as well, we don't want to tamper with that as much, and you have this sense of sacred awe that humans have dignity. But if that's not your view of how humans came to be, and that's not the transhumanist view, well, the only God that's going to exist is us, and so we're going to do it better than what old, like, natural selection did.
• 30:17
  And so that's the underlying motivation. Then it's the typical one other thing, hubris that humans have had since I'm a Christian, so I believe that we fell and that, you know, we're sinful. I you have this aspiration, yes, to God ourselves, and that's what you have. Now, that is scary, And people ought to be scared by that. On the other hand, they also need to know that a lot of these claims being made about what we can do through science, quote unquote science, or through AI for that matter, really it's a bit bait and switch.
• 31:04
  There is no evidence, for example, that anything like a computer could ever become conscious. The dangerous thing actually about AI is not that the claims that you're going have this smarter machines than we are, and it depends on how you yes, more processing power, but that's not the same as smarter. The dangerous thing is that people believe that there's this godlike AI that that we should just defer to because it's so much greater than us when really there are people who are writing the algorithms, are pulling the levers, and it's just another method of control. It's it's sort of the, you know, in the for people who I'm dating myself, but, you know, the beloved classic wizard of Oz. You know?
• 31:44
  Think of the the wizard behind the curtain. I mean, really, when it comes to, AI, it's who's behind the curtain. It's it's just another method of control, but they're claiming it in names of science. And I think we're even doing it now. For example, people may not know, but that algorithms are being used to decide whether people get how long they stay in jail in some.
• 32:10
  Conservatives do this because, oh, it makes sentencing better because we have this and there are these private algorithms that you as a defense attorney don't even have access to that the state may use and to say, well, know, you're a higher risk to go there, but you don't get access to what we're waiting because it's science. And the Supreme Court has yet to take up a case. There was a case that refused where this happened to someone and they wouldn't adjudicate it. That's scary. In LA, just a few years ago, they used an algorithm to try to predict whether or not you were going to engage in child abuse with your family.
• 32:47
  And fortunately, in that case, it turned out that the number of false predictions were so huge, they junked it. But you have all these experts who are selling these wares that it's science when it's not. It's not science. It's human beings coming up with these algorithms, and you wouldn't give absolute power, or you shouldn't, to a human being even less should you give it to an algorithm that is created by human beings that you don't even have access to. So there are a lot of scary things about what they're proposing, but it's scary in some senses because what they're claiming that science can do, it actually can't.
• 33:26
  It's just they're dressing it up. But the other thing is, you know, when they say, I mean, you sort of see this, I don't usually weigh in on this, but I'll get into it here, I might as well. You know, the whole transgender controversy. This idea that you can actually fashion and change your gender or your sex by cutting off, you know, your genital organs, fashioning new ones that don't really work, pumping you full of stuff. The poor people who end up going through this, they're left with something that's horrific.
• 34:00
  It's not like, you know, if you're a woman who then transitions to a man, what you're left at is like butchery. It's not like a man. It doesn't function like a man. And you're left with a life full of hurt. They're using people for guinea pigs, but they're making claims, oh, we can transform you into a man, or we can transform you into a woman, without really giving, you know, the real results of what that surgery is going to do.
• 34:29
  But again, this is not the first time. You go back one hundred years, what was one of the biggest miracle cures? It was called lobotomy. In fact, someone even won the Nobel Prize for developing, and it was supposed to have no effect. In fact, they ended up doing it even on little kids, six, seven year olds, until they found out that, well, in fact, the lobotomy wasn't so great after all, and that putting in the modified ice pick in your brain wasn't a great way to make you functional.
• 35:00
  It might get rid of your depression because it gets rid of you. I mean, it's the first time we've had this, but it's scary because so many people now in the age of computers, they think, Oh, well, anything's possible. And so, they just uncritically accept these claims of what science can and cannot do. And that's one of the most dangerous things about the claims of the transhumanists, or frankly, Fauci's of the world or everything else, is that when people are uncritical about what they're saying, they don't demand the evidence. And this is for politicians.
• 35:34
  Politicians, I do understand, they would say, and I've had over the years discussions with various people say, Well, I can't get into that because I'm not an expert. I'm not a scientist. That's true. But what you can't do, which happened during COVID, and this is one of my biggest critiques of of Trump during COVID, is he basically relied on a couple of government scientists, Fauci was one, Deborah Birx was the other, to basically be the experts without realizing that, well, they're just as compromised and biased as anyone. And so from the get go, you know, at the very end, he brought in Scott Atlas.
• 36:11
  That was good. But that was really too little, too late. Within the first month of the COVID crisis, he should have brought in the I mean, there were plenty of reputable other experts. Because then what happens if when you're having a task force meeting and Fauci is coming down like Moses with the 10 Commandments saying, This is the way it's got to be, he really doesn't have any evidence for it. If you have another scientist next to him that says, Well, Doctor.
• 36:34
  Fauci, here's what this study actually showed this. So, what are you basing this? So, as a politician, you don't have to be an expert. But if you make sure that there's a variety of experts with different views before you, then, you know, you can cut through the BS. I mean, I remember one of the things that made Ronald Reagan effective was he liked, in cabinet meetings, to have people debate things in front of him and force them to, you know, engage with each other.
• 37:05
  And then out of that, he'd come to, you know, a determination. And that's what politicians can do. They should make sure that when we're interacting between science and public policy, to bring a diverse enough set of dissenting experts together to keep people like Fauci honest or Francis Collins honest. Because our media isn't going to. I mean, with all due respect, they fond over these people.
• 37:32
  They were and so but if you're a politician or if you're a legislator who's being asked to bankroll something for billions of dollars, you can say, Okay, come before my committee, and I'm going to invite some people who have a different view, and let's see what you say to them. Now, don't expect me to critique you, but what do you say? Have Scott Atlas or Jay Butcherichio or some of the other great epidemiologists who are from mainstream institutions who are at the top of their profession until they question the covenant orthodoxy, have Fauci respond to them. And then I think you'll see pretty clear. If he's right, he'll be able to show that.
• 38:06
  If not, then maybe he should be replaced.
• 38:11
  Seth Holehouse: And that's why I think that you never see them engage in these debates. I know that there's a lot of people like Peter McCullough or Del Bigtree or folks that have said, look, I will debate you. Like, let's just have a conversation. But there's it's really one-sided. Like, it's really that they're wielding science as this club.
• 38:31
  They only they get to swing. Right? It's only a weapon they can use. But then, you know, mentioning the lobotomies or thalidomide or any of the things that in the past that at one point, you know, even smoking cigarettes, that at one point science said, oh, this is fine. It's good for us.
• 38:47
  And then they revise it, and they say, oh, well, you know, these babies are now being born deformed because of thalidomide. And so let's stop, you know, let's stop administering it. And there's been mistake after mistake, but it just it just seems that there's some sort of almost brainwashing happening through the mainstream media and through all of these really religious cult like tactics. Right? The repeating of things like it's safe and effective, safe and effective, safe and effective, or, you know, like social distancing, you know, social distance, wash your hands, all these rituals that, you know, that people know.
• 39:23
  Because I think that it's not just the scientists. Think you also have the propagandists. You have the psychologists. You have the people that are rooted in Freud and understanding human behavior, just like how Stalin used a lot of Pavlov's research to, you know, to to use that to control people, to condition people. And so but I I know that you know, so obviously, this overall discussion is one that, as you mentioned, like, yeah, it's it's a little more of a doomy thing because if you look at where we're at now versus, say, where C.
• 39:53
  S. Lewis was warning us and is like, look at I'd do anything to go and live back in the time when he was alive. Right? And and live under the government back then with all the freedoms back then as opposed to now. Like, it's night and day difference.
• 40:07
  But I know that especially with, you know, the Discovery Institute that there's a there's a strong focus not just on let's expose all the evil, but let's find the solutions. Let's use science for good. Right? Because it can be used for amazing things. Right?
• 40:22
  There's a reason why our life our life expectancy is up and everything bad. So, you know, from your perspective looking at this and for someone that's watching this that sees that really sees without a whole lot of, you know, confirmation bias or without even any normalcy bias that's saying, well, you know, it's gonna get back to normal pretty soon here. But people that really understand the threat of technocracy and understand where these people and and where the scientists wanna take things, what do you see as being the antidote? I mean, what can we do in our own lives to resist this, to fight back, to, you know, build something else that they're not gonna have control over?
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think people need to educate themselves about first principles, and then they need to to act on them. Obviously, this may sound like a truism, but ultimately, if you want cultural change, you need to reach the next generation. And I will say that those who tend to have a more holistic view of human beings, believe in God, in the basic precepts of morality that most world civilizations have believed in, they tend to have a lot more kids than those who don't. And so what happens is that those who don't, the way they get access is by basically taking over your kids.
• 41:41
  And so one of the most important things that may be so mundane, but the numbers of people even who are culturally conservative who allow their kids to be basically raised by someone else, whether it be state schools, whether it be TikTok, whether it be, I mean, you name it, don't allow someone else to raise your kids. And make sure that your worldview is transmitted to your kids from day one. The number of parents that I've known who, you know, they wake up after their kids have gone to college, and they don't recognize them. But in reality, I don't wanna blame all parents on it because kids ultimately will go their own way. But let me put it this way.
• 42:23
  If you only become concerned about this after they've headed to college and become utterly unrecognizable, then it is largely, well, if you didn't spend the time. Now, if you spent the time, they still may go the other way. But I'd say they're a lot less likely if you are dealing with issues about, say, for example, many people think that somehow science is anti God. No, it's not. Science over the last two or three decades has showed incredible purposefulness down to the molecular machines inside us that are these whiz bang things that make our own human nanotechnology look positively, you know, simple.
• 43:04
  I mean, the stuff that's actually inside our bodies is just amazing. How anyone could be an atheist or a diagnostic who knows anything about what science really shows is just crock. But you need to be acquainting your kids with some of these marvelous things. You need to be acquainting them that morality isn't relative. And that, in fact, like C.
• 43:24
  S. Lewis wrote a little book called The Abolition of Man, where he helped catalog some of the basic moral precepts like honoring your parents, telling the truth, being self sacrificing, that actually can be found in all most world civilizations. I don't want to discount the differences because I actually think that the biblical tradition adds something new and better. Nonetheless, there are a lot of fundamental things that are there. Morality is not relative.
• 43:50
  If you instill them, and then humans are fallible. I mean, one of the things is that anyone who believes in transhumanism or socialism for that matter is because they have a defective view of human beings as somehow that we can perfect human beings in this life. And if you know that that's not true, well, then you become, as Lord Acton said, you realize that power tends to corrupt, and absolute power ends up corrupting absolutely. And so these fundamental things that you can be teaching from day one in the stories you tell them, I mean, read them C. S.
• 44:24
  Lewis, G. K. Chesterton, others. That's one of the most important things you do. Take control of your own family.
• 44:33
  Because the other side isn't having kids. They only can take yours. And so, that's how you get generational change. And one of the things, do give healthy skepticism. Now, there's an unhealthy skepticism that doesn't believe in anything.
• 44:49
  But to demand evidence for scientific claims that claim to be based on evidence, that's healthy skepticism. And for example, I mean, you raise good examples of people like Fauci and others, I say Francis Collins, didn't ever really have to grapple with serious issues. Won't debate people, and they won't answer. They'll only answer softball questions. I mean, one big thing, regardless of how one comes out on the COVID vaccine, whether you think they work, whether they have a number of side effects and stuff, it is a fact, not fiction, that in the government's own database, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting Database, that within a year, basically thirty years of data showing that most vaccines are safe for most people.
• 45:38
  Thirty years of data was wiped out. And something is like seventy percent now of deaths and hospitalizations are now the reports are attributed just to the COVID vaccines. That's a fact. Now, it's perfectly right that just because it's submitted there doesn't mean correlation isn't necessarily causation. I accept all of that.
• 46:04
  But when you have thirty years of data that suddenly flipped within a year with just one set of vaccines, that certainly is a wake up call to actually investigate. And when Francis Collins was actually asked about this data, because we knew that something strange was happening within the first two or three months after the rollout of vaccine because the VAERS reports were just in the stratosphere. I still remember Senator Ron Johnson from Wisconsin tried to get an answer from Francis Collins to deal with this of, well, how do you explain this? Collins wouldn't even answer a United States senator. He didn't want to deal with a tough question.
• 46:45
  And that actually, to me, is one of the biggest when people avoid answering serious questions like that, they either don't have an answer or the answer that they really know in their heart they don't want to tell about. And when the, you know, basically the only thing that Francis Collins will do when they rolled out the vaccines was, I remember one of his interviews, I think it was with Russell Moore, now on Christianity Today, where he was saying, oh, I can assure you that these vaccines aren't gonna aren't gonna put a microchip in your brain, you know, that that Bill Gates wants or something. Okay. Well, give me a break. There are way more serious issues about the COVID vaccines involving even something simple as how long is it in your body.
• 47:38
  In that same interview, he claimed, he just asserted, that the mRNA was going to be out of your body within forty eight hours, whatever, just really simply. We now know that that's not true. I mean, we now know that from one of the studies of pro vaccine researchers that they still found that stuff there three months later. It was probably even later. That's just when they stopped checking on it.
• 48:03
  But again, people like Fauci and Collins never had to actually engage those questions. And in fact, like I said, the biggest failing of Trump, in my concern, is rather than put them in the hot seat, he basically but, you know, I'm not overly critical. Mean, that's what he was taught. You trust these people in the white lab coats, they're giving you and when they tell you that if you don't shut everything down, you're going to have two million deaths within just two or three months in America, which didn't happen and wasn't going to happen. But, you know, he's horrified.
• 48:43
  But we need to train our politicians to be properly skeptical and find the experts. Yes, there are always fringe people, but there are lots of people who are really credible experts. Find them, put them in the same room, and force the people with the power to actually justify what they're doing. So, again, bottom line is take control of your own family, But as part of that is teach a proper skepticism of claims made in the name of science. And true science is what the evidence shows.
• 49:16
  It's not just claims being made in the name of science.
• 49:20
  Seth Holehouse: Yeah. I think that, you know, hearing you talk about that, it really reminds me of why the First Amendment is really the ability to question things. Right? And when we lose that, like what you have happening in Canada right now, they're they're passing certain laws that will make it that even questioning the trans movement will be considered hate speech and and and an act of And and they you can be imprisoned for it. You can be imprisoned and fined just for questioning something.
• 49:49
  And you can see that that's that's how they're slipping it in. They're using these agendas to slip in these rules where, you know, it's like, you know, that's what Jordan Peterson really became famous for was because he he refused to agree or he refused to comply with the the compelled speech, where you're forced to, you know, call someone by their gender that they want to. And it's like, well, you know, if someone wants me to call them a monkey, I don't have to call them a monkey. Right? Like, that's the principle.
• 50:19
  Like, you can't force speech. Yeah. One thing. Okay. It's illegal to yell fire in a crowded theater or, you know, those kinds of things.
• 50:26
  But you can see though that that's why I think what they're always trying to do with this agenda is finding ways to circumvent free speech. Because when they can shut down dialogue and you can no longer question, we've really lost it's not just our free speech that we lose. It's all freedom that gets lost because of that. And I think the Founding Fathers really understood that as well.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: No, I think you're right. The battle for free speech is the battle for the future of our society. If you can't freely criticize, freely advocate your own views, then how do you improve things? Then you're basically saying that the only way you can do it is through violence, which I think is awful. The whole reason you have free speech is so that you can adjudicate by trying to persuade people and through the ballot box, not bullets, and the efforts to stamp out free speech.
• 51:19
  And, of course, it comes under different guises. So, well, of course, we're for accurate information. But this whole thing of going out, well, we're going to suppress just misinformation or disinformation. Well, of course, I want truthful information. I'm not for misinformation.
• 51:36
  But that opens up Pandora's box because I just gave you an example from Francis Collins making a claim about the mRNA in your body. That was false. So that was misinformation. So do I think he should be put in jail for it? No.
• 51:48
  But do I also think that people should be able to raise those questions for him and and get the interplay of debate? As John Milton said, you know, let truth and error grapple. You know, fight it out. Yeah, I think they should be able to do that. And so the, people need to be aware even of these efforts to just crack down on misinformation because misinformation is often in the eyes of the beholder.
• 52:10
  In fact, we've seen this with some of the the Twitter documents and some of the other public information requests that actually in one of them actually said, Well, some of these statements, yeah, they were true, but we regard them as misleading. So, this actually was with regard to vaccine you know, harm of people being injured by vaccines. Well, yes, maybe they really were, but that goes against the meta level thing that we're trying to say as it's always safe. And so, even if you're sharing about yourself something that truly happened that say, within a day or something, you had these horrific things happen, that's also misinformation, even if it's true. I think that's really telling.
• 52:52
  It's about control of the narrative and about its manipulation. And so, our biggest tool, and even still in America compared to places like Canada or England, where in England, you're praying outside of an abortion clinic, silently you can get hauled in by the police. In America, we still have much more freedom for the moment. And so, we need to fight tooth and nail to protect that and secure that.
• 53:23
  Seth Holehouse: I couldn't agree more. Well, John, it's been such a pleasure speaking with you. I encourage folks to check out, this is where I find to be a great page to follow your work. You search for John G. West and Discovery Institute, you'll find this page about you, which and actually, I'll put this link in the description as well so people will have this as a resource because this has listed a lot of the books that you've written and edited.
• 53:46
  It has all the documentaries that you've been involved with, whether it's a director, writer, editor, etc. It's just it's a great place to find your information. And I would highly recommend folks on here that you go check out in the bottom part here, it talks about the documentaries and The Magician's Twin, C. S. Lewis.
• 54:07
  Let me pull this up for folks. So the magician's twin, C. S. Lewis, and the case against scientism, found to be particularly good. And that's really what helped me frame a lot of our discussion today was watching that.
• 54:18
  So do you have any, you know, closing thoughts for people that are watching or listening?
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: Don't be disheartened because, you know, when I was growing up, I thought the iron curtain would never fall. And then what happened in in Poland with, solidarity and other things and then the fall of the Berlin Wall, yes, there are obviously still problems. That wasn't the end of of our problems with humanity. But what it does show is that significant changes can be occurred even even when the odds seem completely against you. It's not over till it's over.
• 54:53
  And really, with human beings, it's never over. No win is ever permanent. No loss is ever permanent, at least in this life. And so, don't be disheartened. And again, be empowered that in America at least, in most states, some states this isn't correct, you still have a lot of authority over your own kids and your own family members and friends.
• 55:16
  Don't squander that, because you can be an army of one to stand for the truth in the circle that you influence. And by doing that, you may change our country for the better over the next twenty years.
• 55:33
  Seth Holehouse: And I think it's also important in terms of don't be disheartened. You make a good point that, you know, we've been through difficult times before. I mean, even looking back on history, it's like, yeah, there was a time in history when the government put an order out, not just to say wear a mask or don't leave your homes. The order was kill every firstborn son. Right?
• 55:53
  So there's been much worse tyrannies in history than than we're dealing with right now. And I think that people have come out of that. For me, I believe it's through God's guidance that has led us out that. And that's where I think that we're at right now. But it's yeah.
• 56:07
  It's a good message to end with of just don't be disheartened, keep our heads up, keep fighting for truth. And, you know, worse comes to worse, if at the end of our lives, we don't succeed, well, you know, afterwards, God looks at us and says, well, you know what? You fought for what was good, and here's your place in heaven.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I say, it's just the families, churches. That's another place you have influence. And, you know, if you stand for truth, you can be a light in your community, because so many churches aren't. But you can be.
• 56:37
  And that's another area where you can feel empowered with God's guidance. And you're right, I also have the eternal perspective. We stand for what's right and true and good because it's right and true and good regardless of how it turns out. Because for eternity, it's going to turn out right.
• 56:55
  Seth Holehouse: Exactly. Well, John, thanks again for coming on the show today. It's been such a great conversation with you. I really appreciate it.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Seth, for having me. This has been a very enjoyable conversation.
• 57:07
  Seth Holehouse: Alright, folks. I've got a quick message for you. I have one simple question. If today you could no longer go purchase more food for your family, with the food stores that you have in your home, how long would you be able to feed your family? Would it be a week, three weeks, a month, two months, a year?
• 57:27
  This is a really important question folks that we have to be very realistic about because the elites are proactively trying to put us into a state of food crisis and a state of famine. I'm sure you've seen all of the different food processing plants and farms that are blowing up. You've got cattle dying by the tens of thousands. They're proactively trying to collapse our food system because they know if they can control our food, they can control us. And so one of the best ways to be outside of their control is to be able to have our own stores of food and to be able to produce our own food.
• 58:00
  So there's really two things I would recommend. One is having heirloom seeds that you can grow your own food with, making sure that they're non GMO heirloom seeds. That way you can harvest your seeds this year, use them next year. You can use these seeds for generations. Literally, it's how it will work.
• 58:16
  The other thing though is this high quality storable food. This is food that's sitting somewhere. It's hidden in your basement, buried in your backyard, whatever it ever it is. So that way, if there is a crisis, if there is an emergency, you might have three months set aside to get through that time period. And so for this, I would highly recommend a company called Heaven's Harvest.
• 58:36
  This is an amazing Christian owned patriot company, and what they're doing is they're making high quality storable food. Again, lot of the food companies, they say these food buckets, they're all about maximizing calories per dollar. They're filling the buckets with a bunch of filler and junk, like sweet beverages, etcetera. But Heaven's Harvest, they focus on very high quality food that will last up to twenty five years on the shelf. They also sell heirloom seeds.
• 59:03
  You can buy all of your seed. You can buy all of your restorable food. And look, folks, personally, I would recommend having at least three months per person in your household, if not six months or even a year. Again, depends on your budget, but I'll definitely make sure you have some seeds because that seed those seeds could be worth their weight in gold, if not more in the future. So to go ahead and do this right now, go up a new tab and go to heavensharvest.com.
• 59:29
  And if you use the promo code Seth, that's s e t h, promo code Seth, you'll save 15% off of your entire order. So again, the time is running out, and you'd rather be three months or one year early than one day late. Again, heavensharvest.com and use promo code Seth to save 15% today.