Latest / The Photography & Video Show Podcast / 28: Wildlife cinematography secrets w/ Sophie Darlington ASC, Nikon Comedy Wildlife Photography Awards and best motorsports photography kit

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28: Wildlife cinematography secrets w/ Sophie Darlington ASC, Nikon Comedy Wildlife Photography Awards and best motorsports photography kit · The Photography & Video Show Podcast

• 0:09
  David McClelland: Hello and welcome to The Photography & Video Show Podcast, your monthly fix of developing camera news and insights from world-leading photographers and filmmakers.
• 0:19
  David McClelland: It's me, David McClelland.
• 0:21
  David McClelland: It's December 2025 and coming up this month.
• 0:42
  Sophie Darlington: You have to want to tell a story, and I think that's why it always starts with Story David.
• 0:47
  David McClelland: American Society of Cinematographers.
• 0:49
  Sophie Darlington: It's a phenomenal honour to be invited to be amongst the world's best cinematographers.
• 0:59
  David McClelland: Renowned BAFTA-winning wildlife cinematographer Sophie Darlington ASC joins me to share some insights on her journey in filmmaking and conservation.
• 1:09
  David McClelland: December also sees this year's Nikon Comedy Wildlife Photography Award winners announced.
• 1:14
  David McClelland: The award's founder, Paul Joynson-Hicks, MBE, joins us from Tanzania.
• 1:19
  David McClelland: And a reminder that the in-person photography and video show opens its doors between Saturday the 14th and Tuesday, the 17th of March, 2026, at the NEC in Birmingham.
• 1:30
  David McClelland: Tickets are now on sale, and the roster of photographers and filmmakers speaking on stage and exhibitors showing off their latest kit.
• 1:38
  David McClelland: It's building very nicely indeed.
• 1:40
  David McClelland: So a lot to cram into today's podcast, beginning as always with camera and kit news.
• 1:46
  David McClelland: And joining us this month is Digital Camera World's How-To editor, Mike Harris.
• 1:51
  David McClelland: Mike, good to have you on the show.
• 1:53
  David McClelland: Thank you.
• 1:54
  David McClelland: How are you?
• 1:55
  David McClelland: I'm I'm very well, thank you very much.
• 1:56
  David McClelland: Looking forward to what is a really, really busy show today.
• 2:00
  David McClelland: It's your first time on the show.
• 2:01
  David McClelland: Love having new new new new news co-hosts.
• 2:06
  David McClelland: Sounds like I should have said that more times than I actually have.
• 2:09
  David McClelland: What sort of stuff do you cover at Digital Camera World?
• 2:14
  Mike Harris: Well, as How2 Editor, I'm generally focused on tutorials.
• 2:19
  Mike Harris: So I'm a little bit of a jack of all trades, so it'd be anything from landscapes to uh I'm working on a pet photography article at the moment.
• 2:27
  Mike Harris: Right.
• 2:28
  Mike Harris: Street photography, but my my absolute favourite, um, which I think you know, is uh is motorsport photography.
• 2:35
  Mike Harris: So that's that's what I like to do in my in my spare time.
• 2:39
  David McClelland: Yes, a birdie told me you were uh just a bit of a petrol head.
• 2:44
  David McClelland: So to what kind of uh extent does this uh well extend?
• 2:49
  David McClelland: What kind of motorsport do you like?
• 2:50
  David McClelland: Two wheels, four wheels, classic Formula One.
• 2:54
  David McClelland: I know that it's uh pretty much the end of the Formula One season, the final race as this podcast goes out, it's just around the corner.
• 3:00
  Mike Harris: Really, really.
• 3:01
  Mike Harris: So yeah.
• 3:02
  Mike Harris: Not long until we uh find out which which McLaren driver wins the world championship.
• 3:07
  Mike Harris: Hopefully not Max Verstappen, but you you can't count that guy out.
• 3:11
  Mike Harris: He's he's too good.
• 3:13
  David McClelland: I can see the comments on the social posts uh landing already with that one, particularly from our from our Dutch listeners and viewers.
• 3:19
  David McClelland: Um is it so i i is it F1?
• 3:21
  David McClelland: Uh are there particular types of motorsport that that you enjoy covering most?
• 3:27
  Mike Harris: Uh if I've got a camera in my hand, I'll photograph anything, uh anything that moves really, from classic kind of motorsport stuff to um sort of static cars, bikes.
• 3:39
  Mike Harris: As a fan, uh is very much Formula One and the British superbikes, which is the uh sort of highest level of domestic uh motorbike racing in the UK.
• 3:51
  David McClelland: Given your area of expertise, Mike, I thought today it might be fun to lean into that a little bit and take a look back at some recent and maybe earlier 2025 camera and kit announcements through your lens of motorsport photography.
• 4:06
  David McClelland: Or to put it another way, what's been revving your engine this year?
• 4:09
  David McClelland: Is anything that made you that's made you want to change gear, perhaps?
• 4:13
  Mike Harris: Change gear, ooh.
• 4:14
  Mike Harris: Maybe not change gear, but maybe change systems.
• 4:18
  Mike Harris: Uh, of course.
• 4:19
  Mike Harris: Well, I'm I'm talking about the uh the Sigma 300 to 600ml F4, which is a crazy lens.
• 4:29
  David McClelland: Right, yes.
• 4:30
  David McClelland: So this this broke in just after the summer, I think, or around about the summer.
• 4:35
  David McClelland: It's a big lens, 300 to 600 millimeters.
• 4:40
  David McClelland: So in in your experience, just talk to me about what that focal range means, because particularly with motorsport, you're not often able to get too close, nor do you want to get too close to the vehicles as they're whizzing around a track at high speed.
• 4:53
  David McClelland: So, what kind of focal lengths do you tend to try to work with?
• 4:58
  Mike Harris: Um, realistically, 600 mil is is fantastic.
• 5:02
  Mike Harris: That will stand you in pretty good stead if you're at a uh national or international circuit.
• 5:08
  Mike Harris: Because the thing you've got to think about, if you go to an international circuit, so I'm talking to places like Silverstone, Spa, you're gonna have really long runoffs.
• 5:16
  Mike Harris: So you're gonna be sat a lot further back or standing a lot further back.
• 5:21
  Mike Harris: Whereas if you're somewhere like Cadwell Park or Thruxton or even Brands Hatch, you can get a lot closer to the action.
• 5:29
  Mike Harris: And that's something I like to say to people that are starting out in motorsport photography.
• 5:33
  Mike Harris: The very first uh motorsport shot that I properly took was of uh Nigel Mans Nigel Mansell's FW14B, the Williams that he'd won the 92 championship in, um, although Kareem Shandog was driving it at Silverstone, and I had a 28 to 85mm lens, I think.
• 5:57
  Mike Harris: Um and I just kept panning, kept trying, and eventually I got a sharp shot.
• 6:05
  Mike Harris: I was using uh a D800, so I had a few megapixels so I could crop.
• 6:10
  Mike Harris: Oh yeah.
• 6:10
  Mike Harris: Um but you know, you you can take shorter lenses, but ideally, you're really looking at a 400, a lens that max out at 400mm is will stand you in good stead for most tracks.
• 6:23
  Mike Harris: But if you want the the absolute ideal uh focal range, you're probably looking at uh in and around a 180 to sort of 200 to 600mm lens.
• 6:34
  David McClelland: Right.
• 6:34
  David McClelland: So so this is a dedicated sport lens to give it its full name, Sigma 300 to 600 f4.
• 6:40
  David McClelland: I want to come onto that in a moment, DGOS Sport.
• 6:44
  David McClelland: Let's talk about the speed there, because this is a constant aperture F4 throughout that focal range, which is uh which is impressive, but also that F4, while you know, if you're used to shooting with a 70 to 200 or 24 to 70 f2.8 or you know, some of the prime lenses, f4 might seem a little bit slow.
• 7:06
  David McClelland: But when you're looking at focal lengths in the 300 to 600 mil range, particularly variable focal lengths, you know, a kind of super zoom like this, actually that F4 is really quite impressive.
• 7:18
  David McClelland: And I imagine that combined with image stabilization is really, really important when you are making images of some things that are moving so very quickly.
• 7:28
  Mike Harris: Yeah, it's it's quite incredible.
• 7:30
  Mike Harris: It's the kind of thing that you'd you'd expect a prime lens to have.
• 7:34
  Mike Harris: And actually, one of the things that Sigma have said is that it delivers basically prime performance within that zoom range.
• 7:43
  Mike Harris: And uh I know that that we on the website gave it five stars and and our reviewer uh sort of gushed about it.
• 7:50
  Mike Harris: Um I've not used it um uh in a in a practical sense, but I I've got to have a play with it.
• 7:57
  Mike Harris: Um and it's yeah, it's it's no joke.
• 8:02
  Mike Harris: It's a it's a it's a fantastic lens.
• 8:04
  Mike Harris: The only thing is it's quite heavy, so you're you're kind of getting on for about four kilograms.
• 8:10
  Mike Harris: Um and I think to answer your question, funnily enough, with most sports, you'd take the F4 all day.
• 8:17
  Mike Harris: If if you were shooting football, um, if you're shooting rugby, anything like that, baseball, you name it, you'd want to be shooting with that wide open aperture so you can get really fast shutter speeds.
• 8:28
  Mike Harris: With motorsport, I think the two things you've you've got to think about is most motorsport takes place during the middle of the day.
• 8:36
  Mike Harris: So you usually have quite a lot of light.
• 8:39
  Mike Harris: Obviously, there's night races and stuff, um, but but generally speaking.
• 8:43
  Mike Harris: And the other thing is if you're panning, so you're trying to get the um the sort of sharp car or bike, but the motion blur behind it, you're probably going to be using quite slow shutter speeds.
• 8:56
  Mike Harris: So if you're starting eight in motorsport photography for the first time, don't get too hung up on on having a really fast lens.
• 9:05
  Mike Harris: I quite often will shoot it around about f eight, and I'm absolutely fine.
• 9:09
  Mike Harris: The other thing you're you're kind of thinking about is your your kind of area of focus too.
• 9:15
  Mike Harris: So um if you're shooting at f8, you've got a little bit more play um in in kind of hitting your focus.
• 9:22
  Mike Harris: But generally speaking, though, I like I think it's for if you're a football photographer, for example, I just think it's incredible.
• 9:30
  Mike Harris: You're gonna sit there with a monopod, so you don't really need to worry about the weight, and you can react to the game as it unfolds.
• 9:38
  Mike Harris: You've you've got that great zoom range, and you can shoot it F4 throughout the zoom range.
• 9:43
  Mike Harris: It's um yeah, it's a groundbreaking lens, I I I th I think is is is is what you know what you'd call it.
• 9:50
  David McClelland: And I think I saw a line from the Sigma CEO also talking about this as being a dream lens.
• 9:57
  David McClelland: Now, of course, CEO of the company would say that, but that's quite a strong thing to say.
• 10:02
  David McClelland: Um, you mentioned it does the job of of some primes, you know, you're kind of getting more than one lens in one package here.
• 10:09
  David McClelland: When you compare this to what you might see sports photographers, I mean, I'm also thinking maybe wildlife photographers as well.
• 10:18
  David McClelland: Tell me if I'm wrong here, but this kind of focal length, this kind of performance also feels as though it might fit into that.
• 10:24
  David McClelland: And wildlife is absolutely a theme of today's show in in the other conversations we're having on the pod today.
• 10:30
  David McClelland: Um, but but what are the other lenses then, and how do they compare, well, let's say in terms of price, if if nothing else, and and focal lengths with what Sigma is offering here?
• 10:41
  Mike Harris: Yeah, that's the big one.
• 10:42
  Mike Harris: I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and call £4,000 affordable.
• 10:47
  Mike Harris: Um, but in the grand scheme of things, you're looking at a 600mm F4 Prime from someone like Canon or Nikon, you're looking at upwards of 10,000 pounds, even hitting the the 15k mark.
• 11:01
  Mike Harris: Now, that's a huge difference.
• 11:03
  Mike Harris: And I think another thing to think about as well is if you buy a prime lens, you've got your 600mm Prime, you're gonna buy buying other lenses on top of that because you need to fill the rest of the space.
• 11:14
  Mike Harris: If you've got 300 to 600, you don't need as many lenses.
• 11:18
  Mike Harris: If we think that a lens you're probably paying for most sort of higher end lenses above a thousand pounds, maybe hitting two thousand, two and a half, all of a sudden that four thousand pounds seems very reasonable.
• 11:33
  David McClelland: Well, you you mentioned their prices of Canon lenses.
• 11:36
  David McClelland: I I think we need to talk about the systems to which this camera will will fit because it's not across the board, is it?
• 11:43
  David McClelland: That's that's kind of the kind of a little thorn in the side at the moment of it.
• 11:48
  Mike Harris: Yeah, and that that's why I said at the beginning, uh not changing uh changing gears, but but changing systems.
• 11:54
  Mike Harris: A little joke.
• 11:55
  Mike Harris: I'm I'm I'm a Nekon photographer and I've I've got no mind to change as it stands.
• 12:00
  Mike Harris: But yeah, this I think this is the kind of lens that will attract some people to turn around and say, you know, I've been thinking about making the jump to Sony or an L Mant system, and I'm gonna go do it.
• 12:12
  Mike Harris: I think um as well, if you uh if you put that lens on on like an uh sort of a smaller sensor, for example, you're gonna get even more reach, which is something to think about too.
• 12:25
  Mike Harris: Yeah, of course.
• 12:26
  Mike Harris: Yes.
• 12:27
  Mike Harris: Um so I was kind of having a look around it it kind of like other lenses, and you know, you can you can get really nice zoom ranges like that, but but your your uh trade-off is going to be the aperture, obviously.
• 12:40
  David McClelland: That is the Sigma 300 to 600ml f4 sports lens this year.
• 12:47
  David McClelland: There's been another announcement.
• 12:48
  David McClelland: Only in the last few weeks have we started to see some reviews of this, and this is very much on the on the camera side of the kit bag.
• 12:56
  David McClelland: Tell me about the uh Canon R6 Mark III.
• 13:00
  David McClelland: We've gone to Mark III and why this is getting such good reviews and why it might work as a motorsports camera.
• 13:09
  Mike Harris: Yeah, I mean, I um I don't actually have data in front of me, but I can only imagine um the the um R6 Mark II must have been one of the most popular um uh full frame Canon cameras going, if not the most popular.
• 13:27
  Mike Harris: And the Mark III, you know, I I perhaps thought maybe it would be a bit of an incremental update, but it's not.
• 13:35
  Mike Harris: It's it's great.
• 13:36
  Mike Harris: I I think the the big headline spec which will uh please a lot of people is it is now um uh virtually hitting uh 33 megapixels um with with an with an all-new sensor.
• 13:47
  Mike Harris: Um you can get up to 40 frames per second um bursts, but that is with the caveat of pre-capture, um, which is a blistering burst speed, although um something I will say is that um burst speeds, I kind of feel in my personal opinion, you you kind of hit 20 frames per second, and I think for most instances that's probably enough.
• 14:15
  Mike Harris: Um I think when you're looking at very, very fast, you have 40 frames per second, or if you're looking at your you know, your really um high-end cameras like you're at your Sony A93 or whatever, with your 120 frames per second, I think you're kind of thinking about you know photographing the synchronized diving at the Olympics or something where you absolutely have to get the uh the kind of perfect moment.
• 14:39
  Mike Harris: Um but certainly for motorsport photography, I think you're you're you're fine with with with going slower.
• 14:45
  Mike Harris: Otherwise, you just end up getting into the editing suite and and cycling through thousands and thousands of images.
• 14:53
  David McClelland: Also useful, I imagine, is the eight and a half stops of uh image stabilization in there.
• 15:00
  David McClelland: And uh and also also here, I mean this camera is uh it's very much a hybrid camera.
• 15:07
  David McClelland: So that that phrase of the year again, open gate.
• 15:10
  David McClelland: We've got 7k60p internal raw recording, 7k 30p open gate.
• 15:18
  David McClelland: So this is a really, really comprehensive video shooter for those of us on the on the filmmaking and video side, as well as uh as I think James Arteus over at Digital Camera World who did his hands-on with it recently.
• 15:31
  David McClelland: Um very much a photo first camera, but a really, really, really capable video camera as well.
• 15:39
  David McClelland: Also at a really reasonable price for a camera that has got so much going for it, very few uh kind of gaps in in its uh in its arsenal, um, the price is extraordinary and I think very, very compelling, very competitive, certainly, from Canon.
• 15:58
  Mike Harris: Yeah, it's um I I think 2799, which is yeah, for for what it offers is is a fantastic price.
• 16:09
  Mike Harris: And um, you know, something I've been thinking about recently is just where the kind of mid-range of the camera market is.
• 16:18
  Mike Harris: And it it's it's it's catch it's catching up with with flagship specs, basically.
• 16:24
  Mike Harris: I think I think it's kind of a law of diminishing returns, basically, now where um you know flagship cameras are are very much about you know very very specific things, like I said, that 120 frames per second.
• 16:37
  Mike Harris: If you are a professional sports photographer focusing the um um photographing the Olympics, then that's that's going to be very handy.
• 16:46
  Mike Harris: But for for most people, a camera like this, this R6 Mark III, is everything you could ever want possibly for uh I maybe for the next 10 years.
• 16:59
  David McClelland: Yeah.
• 16:59
  David McClelland: I I you wonder if there's an extent to which here Canon is eating its own market with the um R5 Mark II that came out recently as well, which is a a bit more expensive.
• 17:14
  David McClelland: Kind of that's kind of top flagship camera market specs.
• 17:20
  David McClelland: But here with the R6 Mark III, that's actually the camera that might well be most useful for everybody as to how many people if you need an R5 Mark II, you know you know you need it, fine.
• 17:31
  David McClelland: For many other people, though, actually, the argument is, I guess, that the R6 Mark III, particularly at the price, actually does more than enough.
• 17:39
  David McClelland: I I think it's um yes, it's different in terms of megapixels, but you know, you mentioned people probably don't really need more than 20 or so frames per second.
• 17:48
  David McClelland: So pros and cons, but certainly what a great camera to have in your uh on your website uh as part of your product offering from Canon.
• 17:59
  Mike Harris: Yeah, I think um just just one thing to add there as well with megapixels, a lot of kind of high-end sports cameras actually tend to have a few less megapixels.
• 18:08
  Mike Harris: Um so I was actually thinking about this, the Fujifilm XH2S, that's got like 26, I think.
• 18:17
  Mike Harris: Um you've got the the A93 that I mentioned, I think that's around 24, 25.
• 18:24
  Mike Harris: Um, and I think the upshot of that is if you are taking lots of photos, if you are shooting lots of bursts, you're you're you you know you're you're not filling up cards so quickly.
• 18:36
  Mike Harris: Um and realistically, um 24, 25 megapixels for most people is uh is is more than enough.
• 18:47
  David McClelland: And I guess that leads us on to finish up our chat for today, Mike.
• 18:51
  David McClelland: In terms of those who are starting out, perhaps maybe they have been inspired by the you know, Formula One or whatever else, or maybe inspired by our conversation today?
• 19:02
  David McClelland: Uh the question is, is the camera that they already have good enough?
• 19:06
  David McClelland: You know, if you are if you do already pack an APS C rather than a full frame camera, are you at a disadvantage or actually because of the crop, because you get that extra bit of distance, can that be quite helpful at times?
• 19:20
  David McClelland: Do people need to go out and buy new kit?
• 19:22
  David McClelland: What where is the I guess the watermark in terms of kit capability that might hold people back if if if you think of it like that?
• 19:33
  Mike Harris: I think um, you know, for years I shot with a with an Econ D800, which is over 10-year-old camera.
• 19:39
  Mike Harris: That's a great fantastic camera.
• 19:42
  Mike Harris: Certainly not a camera that that that that would be sort of rated by most people for sports.
• 19:48
  Mike Harris: Um more of a landscape portrait photographer's camera.
• 19:52
  Mike Harris: And um I think the thing is something something I often say with with motorsport photography is you you know where the car or bike is going.
• 20:02
  Mike Harris: If it's not going in the direction you think it should be, then then there's a problem.
• 20:07
  Mike Harris: If you're photographing birds or if you're photographing footballers or rugby, then autofocus um is very, very important and the kind of new AF algorithms we've got are exceedingly useful.
• 20:22
  Mike Harris: But when you're photographing Murp Sport, you can actually get really good by using single point uh autofocus because you you know where that car or bike is going to stray into the frame, you can follow it quite happily.
• 20:38
  Mike Harris: Um and also I tend to, you know, no matter how good uh subject subject detection has become, it's not quite at a stage yet, really, where it's picking out the motorbike rider's helmet, which is the ideal place to focus, or maybe midway between the bumper of the of the car and the and the windscreen, or or if you're shooting head-on, you want to get the headlights or whatever.
• 21:02
  Mike Harris: So you can you can definitely get by with cameras with worse AF systems.
• 21:08
  Mike Harris: If you've only got single point, it's absolutely fine.
• 21:11
  Mike Harris: And as you say, APSC, it's a favourite by a lot of uh motorsport enthusiasts, by a lot of wildlife enthusiasts, because yeah, the the crop, whether it's uh 1.5 or even if you've got a micro four-thirds, two times crop factor, um, is going to get you closer to the action um with uh lenses um with shorter focal lengths, which tend to be cheaper.
• 21:36
  Mike Harris: I think I think that's the big thing here.
• 21:38
  Mike Harris: If you're starting out, you're probably not gonna want to invest that same amount of money as somebody who's a who's a serious enthusiast.
• 21:46
  Mike Harris: So really focus on your lenses.
• 21:49
  Mike Harris: You really only need one decent uh zoom lens to start off with.
• 21:54
  Mike Harris: Uh even if you've got a two if you've got an APS C camera and you've got a 70 to 200 and you're looking at that that's maxing out at um at 300 millimeters, and and you're going to domestic race circuits, like I uh like I said, uh sorry, national uh race circuits, we can get quite close to the action, you can get some fantastic photos with with with that kit for for sure.
• 22:18
  David McClelland: That's great to know.
• 22:19
  David McClelland: Great to know.
• 22:19
  David McClelland: Uh listen, we're gonna have to leave it there for now, Mike, but thank you.
• 22:24
  David McClelland: Thank you so much for chatting us through that.
• 22:26
  David McClelland: Lots of valuable advice and also surfacing new cameras from from Canon, but also that lens as well, which does look like an absolute beast, I'm pretty sure you will be able to see and get hands-on with that very lens, the Sigma 300 to 600, as well as the R6 Mark III at the photography and video show in March.
• 22:46
  David McClelland: For now, though, Mike, uh, if viewers, if listeners want to find out more about your work to learn how-to from your expert how-tos uh and to see your other work, where are they best to go?
• 22:59
  Mike Harris: Uh, digitalcameraworld.com, which is where I write is how to editor.
• 23:04
  Mike Harris: And if you'd like to see some more of my work, then you can find me on Instagram.
• 23:08
  Mike Harris: And um, I think um my I've got to think of my hand all now.
• 23:13
  Mike Harris: It's Mike Harris underscore snaps.
• 23:16
  Mike Harris: And there's a link there to my other Instagram as well, with with with more of my motorsports stuff.
• 23:21
  Mike Harris: So thank you very much, David.
• 23:23
  David McClelland: We will put a link to all of that in the show notes accompanying this episode of the podcast.
• 23:28
  David McClelland: But for now, Mike, thank you very much for joining us.
• 23:30
  David McClelland: See you again soon.
• 23:31
  David McClelland: Bye-bye.
• 23:32
  David McClelland: As a wildlife cinematographer, Sophie Darlington has for more than 30 years captured emotional, intimate, and dramatic scenes for flagship natural history series for the BBC, National Geographic, and Netflix.
• 23:48
  David McClelland: With BAFTA and American Society of Cinematographers memberships to her name, she's also a passionate conservationist and an advocate for diversity in wildlife filmmaking.
• 23:58
  David McClelland: And yet, she remains one of only a handful of female photographers working in the wild.
• 24:21
  Sophie Darlington: Also known as wildlife cinematography or filmmaking.
• 24:25
  Sophie Darlington: So I work with a team of people to craft a story in as emotional way as possible so that you can feel the characters like I feel the characters.
• 24:40
  David McClelland: Unpredictable cast.
• 24:41
  David McClelland: That's quite an understatement, isn't it?
• 24:43
  David McClelland: You work with you know they say, never work with children, animals, the cliches are there for a reason because they're very true, but yet you actively go out of your way.
• 24:51
  David McClelland: You've made it your your career to work with with animals and sometimes child animals as well.
• 24:57
  David McClelland: Unbelievably cute, I'm sure.
• 24:59
  David McClelland: The next question's one word.
• 25:01
  David McClelland: Why?
• 25:02
  David McClelland: What is it about what is it about you that has drawn you to this line of work, do you think?
• 25:13
  Sophie Darlington: I know it's about light.
• 25:15
  Sophie Darlington: Um it's always been about natural light for me and nature, the combination, it's just like this explosion of joy in my brain when you can get it to work.
• 25:26
  Sophie Darlington: And um when I say natural light, I don't necessarily mean the most beautiful evening light.
• 25:33
  Sophie Darlington: I mean any kind of light.
• 25:35
  Sophie Darlington: But trying to I see something and it's in here, it's an innate drive to capture what I'm seeing: a landscape, an animal, a piece of behavior, a um a bird in flight.
• 25:50
  Sophie Darlington: It's it's it's the most brilliant and frustrating feeling you can experience because often it doesn't pay off.
• 25:57
  Sophie Darlington: But when you get it right, it's really lovely.
• 26:00
  David McClelland: I think that's one of the things that surprises people who aren't involved in wildlife filmmaking about the um return on investment sounds like a horribly cold way of putting it, but the amount of time that you spend in some really challenging environments, weeks at a time, and the return on that in terms of airtime, it blows people's minds.
• 26:22
  David McClelland: What how do you well do you have a formula?
• 26:26
  David McClelland: What what's your what's your normal return on investment from a from a trip out of the room?
• 26:30
  Sophie Darlington: Return on investment.
• 26:31
  Sophie Darlington: That's great.
• 26:31
  Sophie Darlington: I've never heard it put like that.
• 26:33
  Sophie Darlington: Um you're right.
• 26:35
  Sophie Darlington: We can spend weeks, months.
• 26:36
  Sophie Darlington: I just did a talk with a guy who spent something like two years trying to get um a um a shot.
• 26:43
  Sophie Darlington: You know, it it is commitment on with a capital C.
• 26:47
  Sophie Darlington: Um, how do I how do I approach it?
• 26:51
  Sophie Darlington: I think I was really pleased to hear from a producer I worked with recently, and she said that every morning or every evening, whenever we were working, I would get up and I would go out to work with an absolute can-do attitude.
• 27:07
  Sophie Darlington: So it's with a sense of optimism.
• 27:10
  Sophie Darlington: We're gonna do this, it's gonna happen.
• 27:13
  Sophie Darlington: And every evening when you come back in and it doesn't, you kind of go, Okay, deep breath and rinse and repeat.
• 27:21
  Sophie Darlington: And so it's I really always counter, I always kind of put a lot of weight on optimism because you've got to feel like you're gonna bring home something magnificent, beautiful, moving, evocative.
• 27:33
  Sophie Darlington: And so it's that, and there is patience, of course there's patience because it's hours and days and weeks and months.
• 27:40
  Sophie Darlington: But I think also because we're the luckiest people I mean, I would I can't imagine ever doing any other job.
• 27:47
  Sophie Darlington: I live in central London.
• 27:50
  Sophie Darlington: Getting on a tube fills me with dread.
• 27:52
  Sophie Darlington: So sitting in a hide for sixteen hours is comparatively easy.
• 27:57
  Sophie Darlington: Um it feels like luxury to me.
• 27:59
  Sophie Darlington: So I don't think it requires um getting on a tube is tough.
• 28:04
  Sophie Darlington: And I have, you know, deep admiration for all those who do it day in, day out.
• 28:09
  Sophie Darlington: Um I think I'm I I've just chosen something that suits me and suits my character.
• 28:15
  David McClelland: So when that moment happens, a a shot or a behavior or an interaction or whatever it is that you've been commissioned to make, capture, shoot.
• 28:26
  David McClelland: I'm gonna come I'm I'm gonna come to words in a moment because I know that that they can be a bit contentious, particularly in the wildlife context.
• 28:34
  David McClelland: But with the amount of yourself that you're putting into this, is there a yes?
• 28:39
  David McClelland: Is there like a little a frisson or more than a frisone of excitement when you see that develop in front of your lens in that viewfinder?
• 28:49
  Sophie Darlington: Absolutely.
• 28:50
  Sophie Darlington: I think more than a frisson, it's a hell yes.
• 28:52
  Sophie Darlington: You know, it's it's a quiet hell yes often.
• 28:55
  Sophie Darlington: But it is like you absolutely know.
• 28:58
  Sophie Darlington: I think all people who capture, as you say, words are contentious, they're difficult.
• 29:03
  Sophie Darlington: Um, but um when we try and um imagine and bring in um to people a sequence, a a shot, um, a sequ uh something, it's just it's such a blooming thrill.
• 29:19
  Sophie Darlington: It really is.
• 29:20
  Sophie Darlington: It's just amazing when it goes right, and it's such a small proportion of the time that you're out there, you know.
• 29:25
  Sophie Darlington: But you'll have days where you'll capture absolutely nothing day in, day out, you know, particularly when you're not working with birds who are brilliant at delivering and brilliant at repeat behavior.
• 29:35
  Sophie Darlington: When you're working with a big predator, they do something once, you know, that's it.
• 29:40
  Sophie Darlington: And then then they might not do it for another week.
• 29:43
  Sophie Darlington: And um there is yeah, it's it's it's an absolute joy.
• 29:53
  David McClelland: And I guess uh a sign to not not you, but a sign that.
• 29:59
  David McClelland: That maybe it's time to refocus or think about your work in a different way, would you say, is when you stop getting those those rushes when the moment doesn't create a feeling within you.
• 30:13
  David McClelland: That's a time when you need to maybe start asking yourself some questions.
• 30:18
  Sophie Darlington: Without a doubt.
• 30:19
  Sophie Darlington: I think that you've got to passion is a word that gets overused, but it is, you need it.
• 30:23
  Sophie Darlington: You need to have that passion and drive to do this.
• 30:26
  Sophie Darlington: And if you lose that joy at capturing something that you can share with people, and it's that thing about when I look down a lens, I try and emotionally connect with an animal.
• 30:38
  Sophie Darlington: I know it's kind of the anthropomorphizing, as we discussed earlier, is a word that's very contentious, but for me, um, or can be problematic.
• 30:48
  Sophie Darlington: I completely want to engage with my subject, um, whether that's a crane or a bear, because if I engage with them, then the person who's watching what I'm shooting has a chance of engaging with them.
• 31:00
  David McClelland: We'll be talking about anthropomorphosisation later on in the podcast.
• 31:04
  Sophie Darlington: I'm going to make you say it at least ten times.
• 31:08
  David McClelland: Yeah, it it's not the easiest word to say.
• 31:10
  David McClelland: Um, but yes, uh I I I find that really interesting.
• 31:14
  David McClelland: But just coming back to the connection and the empathy, you clearly empathize with the animals a as you work with them, and as we've said, you follow their lives sometimes for weeks on end.
• 31:26
  David McClelland: But you are also a documentarian, are you not?
• 31:29
  David McClelland: You know, you live your life at the end of a long lens there, and you don't deliberately, I guess, engage with them.
• 31:36
  David McClelland: So are there times when there's a a challenge?
• 31:40
  David McClelland: You've got the connection, you've got a a real sense of empathy with the creature, but then nature does what nature does sometimes very brutally in front of you.
• 31:51
  David McClelland: Does that break your heart?
• 31:53
  David McClelland: Do you let it, do you allow it to break your heart?
• 31:56
  Sophie Darlington: I think after I've finished filming, of course it does.
• 31:59
  Sophie Darlington: When you see some of, you know, nature roaring tooth and claw, it is heartbreaking.
• 32:04
  Sophie Darlington: Um, you see a lion killing another lioness's cubs um because he wants to father her own.
• 32:11
  Sophie Darlington: And you capture a shot, this was way back in the early 90s, but I captured a shot of a lion standing up with a cub in his mouth and he's sneering down the camera.
• 32:21
  Sophie Darlington: He's, you know, and and everything in me hates him, but also I know why he has to do it.
• 32:29
  Sophie Darlington: And you completely and utterly, I get completely emotionally engaged.
• 32:33
  Sophie Darlington: I most probably shouldn't.
• 32:34
  Sophie Darlington: Um, but usually, like everything, we've got cameras between us and the what's happening.
• 32:40
  Sophie Darlington: And I use a camera as a, as so many people, war photographers I know do it.
• 32:46
  Sophie Darlington: I certainly do it.
• 32:47
  Sophie Darlington: Um, I'm not particularly good in going in light aircraft, but if you put a camera in front of me between me and the subject, and you put me in a helicopter, I'm fine.
• 32:56
  Sophie Darlington: You know, it's it's that the camera gives you space and diff distance, sometimes too much.
• 33:03
  Sophie Darlington: And actually, that'll be something that I would like to talk about at NEC next year, um, about respect, um, and how we disengage when we get something between us and an animal, um, or a creature, or wildlife in general, or nature.
• 33:19
  Sophie Darlington: And and I'm and I find that really interesting.
• 33:22
  Sophie Darlington: Have we forgotten why we're there in the first place?
• 33:26
  David McClelland: And related to that, uh something that we just touched on a moment ago, is is the language that we use as well around photography and filmmaking.
• 33:34
  David McClelland: And it's something I know many photographers, many filmmakers are increasingly sensitive, uh increasingly careful about how they use words like take, capture, shoot.
• 33:45
  David McClelland: And I just wonder if if you're aware of sensitivities around using those words, particularly in the conservation in in the wildlife arena, where you know the animals that you work with are directly in danger of being taken, captured, shot.
• 34:02
  Sophie Darlington: Yeah, well, I mean, there's the whole um the whole aspect of othering.
• 34:06
  Sophie Darlington: We've completely forgot we're animals.
• 34:08
  Sophie Darlington: And and you know, it's it's sort of not rocket science, is it?
• 34:11
  Sophie Darlington: You kind of like, oh, we're animals too.
• 34:13
  Sophie Darlington: So that that the the language, interestingly, when I was um learning how to be a cinematographer with a wildlife cameraman called Hugo van Lauek in the um in the 90s, back in the Serengeti, um, a lot of people called animals game, um, as in game watching.
• 34:33
  Sophie Darlington: And he absolutely wouldn't have it.
• 34:36
  Sophie Darlington: And it was a really good um lesson to me to learn why, why?
• 34:40
  Sophie Darlington: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 34:41
  Sophie Darlington: No, absolutely, because it's not a game.
• 34:44
  Sophie Darlington: You know, they're not game.
• 34:46
  Sophie Darlington: And that was just our mentality about how we thought about animals.
• 34:49
  Sophie Darlington: So it is so important, the words that you use.
• 34:52
  David McClelland: Yeah, I do you know what?
• 34:54
  David McClelland: I and I'd never consciously made the association between game in that sense, because it's not a word that I use, I hear being used very often anymore, and sport, and and obviously what all of the stuff that goes with that.
• 35:08
  Sophie Darlington: Well, it's all from hunting, isn't it?
• 35:09
  Sophie Darlington: I mean, it's game birds, and you think of game birds, and you're like, why should poor old quails be game birds?
• 35:15
  Sophie Darlington: You know?
• 35:16
  Sophie Darlington: What kind of it's not fun for them people.
• 35:18
  Sophie Darlington: I don't think they're in the game.
• 35:22
  David McClelland: I want to talk about some of your recent work, Sophie, uh, and in particular Queens.
• 35:27
  David McClelland: Now, this was a seven-part National Geographic series.
• 35:30
  David McClelland: I think it dropped probably about 18 or so months ago at the time when we're talking right now, female dynasties, matriarchies.
• 35:37
  David McClelland: But from having having watched some bits of it and having heard various people talk about it, including yourself, it strikes me that while what was important was the story you were telling, what you were filming, what you were making, but what was also important for you was how you went about making that.
• 35:59
  David McClelland: So for anyone who isn't familiar with with Queens, uh, give us the top line and then give us a bit of what went into making it, what it was that you were trying to achieve, not only from the output, but from the process.
• 36:12
  Sophie Darlington: So Queens was a series about female leadership in nature, and peculiarly it hadn't been done.
• 36:19
  Sophie Darlington: And I think the reason it hadn't been done was maybe maybe because of the people who were making natural history television, predominantly male, and therefore the team uh led by Vanessa Berlowitz from Wildstar Films, um, got together Justine Evans, another wildlife DOP and myself, and and a gaggle of us, and we um she pitched it to Nat Geo, and they loved it because it's like, of course, what what?
• 36:47
  Sophie Darlington: Why hasn't anyone done this?
• 36:49
  Sophie Darlington: But also, why should it be made by a bunch of you know of women as opposed to men?
• 36:55
  Sophie Darlington: Well, the answer is obvious.
• 36:57
  Sophie Darlington: We have a different way of looking and a different way of interpreting, and I think it needed to have a uh a female-led team to to tell the story.
• 37:07
  Sophie Darlington: So it's uh it's about elephants and orcas and bears and everything, and um, so many species are matriarchally led.
• 37:15
  Sophie Darlington: But also, it was really important to Justine and myself, and I can speak on her behalf, I know, because we've done a lot of talking about this, is that we both grew up in an um an environment where there weren't many women behind the camera, and there still aren't, as you know, there really are representation behind the camera of women, is is not great.
• 37:35
  Sophie Darlington: Um and so we really felt like this was an opportunity to have real input.
• 37:41
  Sophie Darlington: And National Geographic were incredible and supported us bringing on five incredibly talented young women, um, not just um behind the camera, but in all the crafts.
• 37:52
  Sophie Darlington: Faith Masembi, a young Kenyan, um uh a phenomenal filmmaker, but not O Fay with blue chip.
• 37:59
  Sophie Darlington: Do you you know the term blue chip?
• 38:01
  Sophie Darlington: Should I explain it maybe?
• 38:02
  David McClelland: No, please do.
• 38:03
  David McClelland: I I feel ignorant, not not knowing what that what that means.
• 38:06
  Sophie Darlington: Well, no, you don't feel ignorant.
• 38:08
  Sophie Darlington: Um, somebody asked me the other day um where I thought blue chip came.
• 38:12
  Sophie Darlington: And it means the kind of David Attenborough top-tier, voice of God, nobody in frame, just the animals.
• 38:19
  Sophie Darlington: That's blue chip.
• 38:20
  Sophie Darlington: And it's you know, life on earth, um, our planet, the hunt, all these and queens.
• 38:25
  Sophie Darlington: And blue chip, I believe, came from a gambling term.
• 38:28
  Sophie Darlington: It was like the most valuable chip, and because it was seen as the creme de la creme of wildlife filmmaking.
• 38:33
  Sophie Darlington: Who knew?
• 38:35
  Sophie Darlington: Um but so there was Faith, who was um brought in as a producer who'd never had a chance.
• 38:41
  Sophie Darlington: She was mentored by the team in Bristol.
• 38:43
  Sophie Darlington: There were four young camera women who were given real opportunities in the field with real cameras.
• 38:49
  Sophie Darlington: Red gave us cameras, they were incredibly generous so that we could have not one camera on location, but two cameras on location, and we gave them meaningful mentorship, um, both Justine and myself, but also all the cameramen.
• 39:03
  Sophie Darlington: Because of course it's not just there's there aren't enough camera women to have led this.
• 39:07
  Sophie Darlington: We needed to have all our male colleagues who were all our male colleagues who were fully supportive.
• 39:13
  Sophie Darlington: And so, yeah, we we we made this series over three years during COVID, and I have to say it's incredible because the all of the people, all the women that were mentored are now flying.
• 39:27
  Sophie Darlington: So proper, meaningful men ship mattered.
• 39:31
  David McClelland: So there's a legacy behind that journey back.
• 39:33
  David McClelland: That that you've been on, the the the talent that you've nurtured as well, which is great.
• 39:38
  David McClelland: And I know that that's that's very important to you.
• 39:41
  David McClelland: Just for a moment on the on the films themselves, though, that that you were able to make.
• 39:46
  David McClelland: You said that, you know, we speak about the animal kingdom, there we are with language again.
• 39:50
  David McClelland: That suggests a very kind of male term, and there and there are lots of, you know, a lot of the drama, or so it seems, is around males, you know, di displaying their domination, posturing, all of that sort of stuff.
• 40:03
  David McClelland: What sort of surprising stories were you able to tell of the queens of the of the animal queendom?
• 40:11
  Sophie Darlington: Well, I loved I there were so many episodes I loved, and um I didn't shoot on all of them, I only shot on a couple couple, but one I didn't shoot on bonobos, I just loved bonobos, which is like uh they look very similar to chimps, they're an ape, um, they live in Central Africa.
• 40:26
  Sophie Darlington: Um, but when they have an argument, instead of fighting, they make love, not war.
• 40:30
  Sophie Darlington: Literally, they make love.
• 40:32
  Sophie Darlington: And not just one, but all of them.
• 40:35
  Sophie Darlington: And it's I mean, it's just like, oh my word.
• 40:38
  Sophie Darlington: And they're led by grannies, like the older, the older grannies, and if they and the males be going around going, ah, and the grannies be like, look, chill out, let's have a hug, maybe some other stuff.
• 40:50
  Sophie Darlington: And and it's like, wow, that's gives you an idea of female leadership in nature, but then you go to the sort of cunning, um, uh, the cunning style of leading leadership of a of a of a dual um of a bee.
• 41:06
  Sophie Darlington: So many bees, ants, and wasps of female led.
• 41:09
  Sophie Darlington: And this this incredible bee, she would um she would trick her daughter into raising her uh her babies.
• 41:19
  Sophie Darlington: Um, and then um her daughter would be going hell for leather trying to feed her little babies, and she in the meantime was eating her daughter's babies too.
• 41:28
  Sophie Darlington: I mean, nature is one of the most extraordinary stories.
• 41:33
  Sophie Darlington: I mean, we know about lionesses, but did you know that a lion, um, if she's thinking that there's new males that are going to come in, she will pretend to mate with them.
• 41:45
  Sophie Darlington: She'll mate with them, even though she's already got cubs.
• 41:47
  Sophie Darlington: So he, not being the brightest spark, might think they're his and therefore save her cubs' lives.
• 41:53
  Sophie Darlington: These are the tiny, you know, just some of the stories.
• 41:56
  Sophie Darlington: Um the orchid bee is what she's called, not a jewel bee, but she looks like a jewel.
• 42:01
  Sophie Darlington: She's like a shiny, beautiful.
• 42:03
  Sophie Darlington: She's so malevolent and evil.
• 42:05
  Sophie Darlington: She's fabulous, very clever.
• 42:08
  Sophie Darlington: But as you say, um females often the ones in charge, not always, but often the ones in charge of rearing their offspring.
• 42:16
  Sophie Darlington: So it really they tend to be muted colours, whereas the males can be all these fabulous bright colours and or big manes or you know, size, whereas the females are usually bigger in birds and muted.
• 42:30
  Sophie Darlington: I love it.
• 42:30
  Sophie Darlington: I love how nature, every time I go into it, I'm like, what was it?
• 42:35
  Sophie Darlington: It's it's a bit Paul Whitehouse, but nature's brilliant, you know.
• 42:38
  Sophie Darlington: Brilliant.
• 42:40
  David McClelland: And I guess coming back to that difficult to say word anthro anthropomorphosisation, where the stories that you were telling there, particularly about the cunning by which some of those female leaders they employ in order to protect their family, to protect their young, or to protect their own interests.
• 43:01
  David McClelland: It's natural, is it not, therefore, as humans, to start applying, not applying lessons, but then to applying what stories you're seeing with your lens of the animal kingdom and applying that to our own, going, actually, that's very much like what I might feel like doing, but would never dare to do, because I I'm a human, I've had 30 years of conditioning or whatever it is.
• 43:22
  David McClelland: But you then start to make that connection back to human behaviour.
• 43:25
  David McClelland: So we not only do we see, not only do we project our humanity onto the animals, it's a two-way thing because we start to project the animal behaviours onto ourselves because we are animals, as you rightly said.
• 43:40
  Sophie Darlington: We are animals, and I mean I look at elephants are my absolute favourite.
• 43:43
  Sophie Darlington: I love elephants and cows, weirdly.
• 43:45
  Sophie Darlington: But elephants and I love cows.
• 43:48
  David McClelland: Okay, okay.
• 43:49
  Sophie Darlington: It's just it's it's slightly surprising for what I do, but I've got a thing about cows.
• 43:54
  Sophie Darlington: One day I'm gonna make the show about cows, and you'll see why.
• 43:57
  Sophie Darlington: Uh, but um elephants, I absolutely there's something when you're with an elephant, David, where you're have you ever been on Safari?
• 44:06
  David McClelland: No, I never have.
• 44:07
  David McClelland: I've I've now been invited, um, but I I haven't been yet.
• 44:11
  Sophie Darlington: Go.
• 44:12
  Sophie Darlington: Well, please go.
• 44:12
  Sophie Darlington: And if you go to Tanzania, you're gonna see elephants.
• 44:15
  Sophie Darlington: And there's something about being with a herd of elephants, also matriarchal, and they're led again by the elder matriarch who's got all the memory.
• 44:23
  Sophie Darlington: When they say that elephants don't forget, they don't forget.
• 44:26
  Sophie Darlington: They have extraordinary memories and they carry with them paths um in their brains of where they've gone in in the past, um, you know, where they can find water, whatever, but they're also democratic.
• 44:39
  Sophie Darlington: So you with a herd of elephants and they communicate, um, you can hear them communicate, but also you can't hear it.
• 44:45
  Sophie Darlington: You feel it because it's subsonic, it's below the frequencies we can hear.
• 44:49
  Sophie Darlington: And they've got special pads on their feet that allow them to feel the sound of the infrasound coming through the I mean, from several miles away.
• 45:00
  Sophie Darlington: They can also hear rain.
• 45:01
  Sophie Darlington: They're extraordinary, but they are a democracy.
• 45:04
  Sophie Darlington: Couldn't we do with a bit more of that right now?
• 45:06
  Sophie Darlington: And they all sit when they want to go somewhere, and you can hear them chatting, and one elephant will want to go this way and she'll have to come back until they all decide as a group to head off in the direction that they're going to go in.
• 45:20
  Sophie Darlington: And so we can absolutely learn from them and their behavior, especially the gentle, the gentle ones.
• 45:28
  David McClelland: Coming back to that connection, and we spoke earlier on about the connection that you have with these animals, albeit with a lot of glass in between you in terms of a lens.
• 45:38
  David McClelland: But uh I I I'm sure you have.
• 45:42
  David McClelland: You get to know, you get to know your subjects.
• 45:45
  David McClelland: You must have, I'm sure, been close up with with elephants when you've been out on on location as well and on safari.
• 45:53
  David McClelland: And while you can see into their eyes from a distance with the aid of technology, how does it feel then when you are with an elephant and you feel it's looking into your eyes?
• 46:04
  David McClelland: Do you feel that sense of connection, that that that sense of communion when you when they see you and you almost feel as though you're the subject of you are the one that's being observed?
• 46:16
  Sophie Darlington: I think elephants are quite um they they're slightly annoyed by us because we're sort of usually in the car.
• 46:23
  Sophie Darlington: And and as are most animals, we're slightly inconvenient.
• 46:26
  Sophie Darlington: If we're if we can be used for shade, fabulous.
• 46:28
  Sophie Darlington: And I'm like, no, my car is not shade, I am not a tree.
• 46:31
  Sophie Darlington: Elephants, they definitely, there's a thing with elephants, you don't drive to them, you go where they're going and let them come to you, make it their decision.
• 46:39
  Sophie Darlington: And that's actually something I do with wildlife as a whole.
• 46:42
  Sophie Darlington: I never ever want to put myself and make myself or make them aware of me.
• 46:48
  Sophie Darlington: And so if you were going into a herd of elephants, you'd just go where you can see them, they don't like being approached from behind.
• 46:54
  Sophie Darlington: Go around, make sure they know.
• 46:55
  Sophie Darlington: And if they want to then come to you, they can come and just, you know, be almost, you could touch them.
• 47:02
  Sophie Darlington: And and there is, it's such an emotional thing.
• 47:06
  Sophie Darlington: I and I think it's to do with their sound, but I I am never happier than when I'm with a herd of elephants.
• 47:12
  Sophie Darlington: And also watching the babies, the calves, the way they play, they're really funny.
• 47:18
  Sophie Darlington: You know, they'll push each other over and they they have absolute joy.
• 47:23
  Sophie Darlington: I mean, there is no, I'm not being anthropomorphic when I say this.
• 47:26
  Sophie Darlington: There is joy in watching an elephant play because you know that they're having the time of their lives, you know, their ears are going, their trunks, which they can't quite handle.
• 47:36
  Sophie Darlington: They, you know, if it's been raining, they're rolling around in the mud on top of each other.
• 47:40
  Sophie Darlington: Joy is the only word I can use to describe it.
• 47:43
  David McClelland: And I'm feeling joy hearing you express that joy as well, as I'm sure people listening and watching are, to see the passion, the heart, the joy that you get from your engagements.
• 47:55
  David McClelland: It it's a job, but it sounds anything but when you when you share these moments with us.
• 48:01
  David McClelland: Um just to change tack slightly though, and I don't know if this removes the joy or not, but I'd like to ask you how things are changing with regards to wildlife filmmaking.
• 48:11
  David McClelland: Um and to be specific, I think there's probably maybe three areas to to address that and to help it.
• 48:18
  David McClelland: First of all, the economics of it, the the budgets, because we know that media consumption, creation, the economics around TV are changing right now.
• 48:28
  David McClelland: Um let's let's cover that one first of all because I think that might lead us on to then engagement, how how audiences are engaging with this content as well.
• 48:36
  David McClelland: But in terms of the practicalities, in terms of the commissions, uh and I'm not just really talking about your work, of course, that that's your experience, but the broader ecosystem of wildlife filmmaking.
• 48:49
  David McClelland: How have you seen that change in the 25 years or or or however long you've been part of this picture for?
• 48:56
  Sophie Darlington: Yeah, 30 plus years, it's ridiculous.
• 48:58
  Sophie Darlington: I'm uh we went through a golden age about uh, you know, the last sort of 10 years have been a golden age for wildlife when there were some extraordinarily brilliant shows coming out, and there's been a couple of things that's happened.
• 49:12
  Sophie Darlington: One is that they have shelf life, because once you've seen um, you know, once you've seen a bear hunting a salmon, doesn't matter if you're seeing it in 2K, 4K, or 8K, it's still a bear hunting a salmon.
• 49:25
  Sophie Darlington: Um and so these these this imagery that we've created, it's really heartening to hear that people are still watching the shows that we were making years ago because they don't get old.
• 49:36
  Sophie Darlington: There's still nature just being incredible.
• 49:38
  Sophie Darlington: But also, as you rightly say, budgets have come absolutely crashing down.
• 49:43
  Sophie Darlington: So there isn't a demand for wildlife as much as there was, and I think there was a flooding of the market of possibly um maybe the quality wasn't as good as it because so many everybody kind of cashed in on the uh economy of it.
• 49:59
  Sophie Darlington: And what's really good now is that storytelling I think is gonna come back to the fore.
• 50:06
  Sophie Darlington: And and we're gonna start people are gonna have to be creative, but also tell uh stories with heart because those are the things people want to watch.
• 50:15
  Sophie Darlington: So the budgets have yes, definitely, there's much less being commissioned, there's much less jobs.
• 50:21
  Sophie Darlington: I mean, there's a huge amount of people out of work right now.
• 50:24
  Sophie Darlington: I think in the industry, it's throughout our industries.
• 50:27
  Sophie Darlington: Um, I think it's I heard somebody say the other day 48% of crews are out of work at the minute.
• 50:33
  Sophie Darlington: It's huge, you know.
• 50:34
  Sophie Darlington: It's it's really, really tough.
• 50:37
  Sophie Darlington: Um so yeah, in answer to that one, budgets are down.
• 50:42
  Sophie Darlington: And the reasons I think are why is because maybe too much content was made, but also the content has been of such incredible caliber and excellence, it just doesn't go away.
• 50:53
  David McClelland: So and and that you you've absolutely touched um on my second point, which is around engagement and about changing media consumption habits uh and the ways in which we are telling the stories, making the films, adapting to ensure that audiences stay engaged and don't get fatigued, you know, because I guess for fatigue is a thing.
• 51:16
  David McClelland: And I noticed this when I was on your least favourite place, the London Underground, one of your least favourite places, the London Underground the other week.
• 51:23
  David McClelland: I s I saw uh I saw an advert um uh and it was from a conservation charity.
• 51:30
  David McClelland: I can't remember which one it was, but normally you would see an image of um some wildlife that was in a sorry state, and it would be on a billboard and it would it would lean into the shock factor and encourage me to engage in some way, to subscribe, to donate, whatever it was.
• 51:47
  David McClelland: But this took the opposite approach, and it was telling a good news story about how the work that they had done enabled by donations and engagement from general public was helping to have a positive impact.
• 52:00
  David McClelland: There's still more work to be done, but look at I guess this is social proof that that they that they talk about.
• 52:06
  David McClelland: But clearly charities are looking, conservation charities are looking at different ways to engage people because they are, I guess, sensing a sense of fatigue that the same old ways of telling the stories aren't resonating, aren't impacting, aren't creating the engagement anymore, which presents a challenge for filmmakers such as yourself.
• 52:27
  Sophie Darlington: Yeah, absolutely.
• 52:28
  Sophie Darlington: I mean, it was interesting because at COP 30, which is ongoing at the minute, um I the way that I've attacked uh because the shock uh the shock is not working anymore.
• 52:38
  Sophie Darlington: We've all been, we're desperately tired with shock.
• 52:42
  Sophie Darlington: There's so much shocking, shocking going on in the world.
• 52:45
  Sophie Darlington: It's so appalling that actually we need stories of we need to be real and accept that they are there's you know, the devastation in the natural world is just immense, but we also need to hear stories of hope.
• 52:57
  Sophie Darlington: And I think that stories with heart, Billy and Molly, uh, The Octopus Teacher, um, the shows I grew up on when I was a little girl, Born Free, you know, um Um Um Ring of Bright Water, Tarka the Otter, these are the stories we really engage and kind of like um feel drawn to nature through.
• 53:17
  Sophie Darlington: And I think now at COP 30, wildlife is finally being recognised as part of climate solution, not just a victim, which is really important.
• 53:27
  Sophie Darlington: Um so you know, you're seeing sharks, don't kill sharks not because of shark fin soup, and it's you know, and that's bad, but don't kill sharks because sharks are maintaining the ecosystem on the ocean, you know, within the ocean, and that's actually really good for carbon capture, you know, and don't um elephants are tricky, but um they're ecosystem engineers, you know.
• 53:53
  Sophie Darlington: They they they are they are again, you know, they promote growth of carbon.
• 53:57
  Sophie Darlington: So you're protecting elephants, you're actually helping the environment.
• 54:00
  Sophie Darlington: So turning things on their head, I think is really important.
• 54:04
  Sophie Darlington: But telling stories with heart, the stories that engage, as opposed to, yeah, stories of desperation are hella hard to watch, aren't they?
• 54:12
  David McClelland: On that, on that note, and it's a really, really trivial example, but it's worked in my house.
• 54:18
  David McClelland: Uh we moved into a new house not all that long ago.
• 54:20
  David McClelland: I have children, two young girls.
• 54:22
  David McClelland: And they hate spiders.
• 54:23
  David McClelland: They were scared of sp were scared of spiders.
• 54:26
  David McClelland: It's a normal thing.
• 54:27
  David McClelland: Well oh oh c completely.
• 54:30
  David McClelland: And this house, much older, much higher ceilings, you know, um many more spiders, particularly as you start to enter the autumn.
• 54:37
  David McClelland: But what's really worked for me is that they don't like flies, they don't like flying things either.
• 54:40
  David McClelland: So teaching them that the spiders play a really, really valuable role with the webs that they spin in catching those flies, they've gone, oh, actually, okay, I can kind of live with these spiders if it means that there are less flying things around my room likely to land on me.
• 54:57
  David McClelland: All right.
• 54:57
  David McClelland: So I guess extending that out to what you're talking about there in terms of the ecosystems in which elephants are fine.
• 55:04
  Sophie Darlington: And also looking them at macro, looking, I think that's brilliant.
• 55:07
  Sophie Darlington: I love that what you've done there.
• 55:08
  Sophie Darlington: And but also looking at them at macro and seeing actually just get them to Google cute spiders.
• 55:13
  Sophie Darlington: You might not win, but honestly, some of them are so cute.
• 55:17
  Sophie Darlington: It's like when you look at the macro, um, I'll send you a link to uh Instagrammer whose work I absolutely adore.
• 55:24
  Sophie Darlington: And he's just showing you can't be scared of them.
• 55:27
  Sophie Darlington: They look ludicrous.
• 55:28
  David McClelland: Yeah.
• 55:29
  David McClelland: Back to the comedy wildlife photography awards again later on.
• 55:32
  David McClelland: There we go.
• 55:34
  Sophie Darlington: Yeah.
• 55:34
  David McClelland: Uh my final thing on how things are changing in wildlife filmmaking.
• 55:39
  David McClelland: And maybe it's the least interesting of everything that we've spoken about.
• 55:44
  David McClelland: But I'm just curious about the kit that you use and whether that's really interesting.
• 55:48
  David McClelland: Okay, okay.
• 55:49
  David McClelland: Do you know it it's interesting.
• 55:51
  David McClelland: I've been doing this show and and speaking with photographers and and filmmakers for a long time.
• 55:56
  David McClelland: I think kit is probably the thing that we talk about the least.
• 56:00
  David McClelland: But nevertheless, there are times, particularly when the work is quite technical, uh can be quite technical, certainly, with the work that you do.
• 56:09
  David McClelland: That it's it's interesting, I think, to talk about it.
• 56:11
  David McClelland: We've mentioned a few times the lens, the the long, long lens that you use.
• 56:16
  David McClelland: Uh talk to me about what you would typically go out and and film make with if you were going out tomorrow or or next week, and whether that has fundamentally changed over the last, I don't know, five, ten years or so.
• 56:30
  Sophie Darlington: The lenses move very slowly because they're um I believe there's a new one coming, but uh the CN20, it's called, it's a 20-time zoom.
• 56:38
  Sophie Darlington: It goes from 50 to 1,500.
• 56:40
  Sophie Darlington: It's really slow, it's really heavy.
• 56:43
  Sophie Darlington: But as wildlife cinematographers, we need, we don't have the luxury of time to change, um, to change lenses.
• 56:51
  Sophie Darlington: And we have to capture one sequence as it happens.
• 56:54
  Sophie Darlington: So you need that massive close-up, you need your mid-shop for the behavior or whatever it might be, and you need to set the scene.
• 57:02
  Sophie Darlington: And at the minute, that is the best lens, I think.
• 57:05
  Sophie Darlington: Um, I'd rather it was a bit wider.
• 57:07
  Sophie Darlington: Um, if it was a 25 to 1500, just saying canon, um, that would be really good.
• 57:13
  Sophie Darlington: I don't know what it'll be.
• 57:14
  Sophie Darlington: Just like you can imagine lifting it.
• 57:16
  Sophie Darlington: Um but yeah, um, it's um people are quite surprised.
• 57:21
  Sophie Darlington: We still pull our own focus.
• 57:23
  Sophie Darlington: We still we don't have autofocus.
• 57:26
  Sophie Darlington: Um, um, the long lenses, we we all do it ourselves, and I always have done.
• 57:30
  Sophie Darlington: I know that's changing hugely, and everyone must be going, why?
• 57:34
  Sophie Darlington: Why would they do that?
• 57:35
  Sophie Darlington: I think it's as yet our the different different setups work with autofocus, but the way we do it, we still do our own focus, our our own everything.
• 57:46
  Sophie Darlington: We have no assistance.
• 57:47
  Sophie Darlington: So I will go out with a camera, a red or an ARI, the ARI Alexa 35 I've been using for the last three and a half years on a project.
• 57:56
  Sophie Darlington: Um beautiful, simple uh just the imagery off them.
• 58:04
  Sophie Darlington: I mean, just glorious.
• 58:05
  Sophie Darlington: Um, and a very, very substantial head, um, an Atlas 40 or 50 or an O'Connor.
• 58:12
  David McClelland: So something that's in particular, gorgeous.
• 58:14
  Sophie Darlington: Exactly, because when you're moving a lens of that length, you're really gonna show every every move, you know, you're gonna see every wobble.
• 58:21
  Sophie Darlington: And we don't have image stabilization in the lenses either.
• 58:24
  Sophie Darlington: Um, it's all done in post.
• 58:26
  Sophie Darlington: Um, so yeah, and we usually work with either a small HD monitor.
• 58:32
  Sophie Darlington: Um, if you're filming birds and you want to be, you know, filming in the sky, you can't really work with a viewfinder, but I still work with a viewfinder, um, as do most long lenses, um, because you're sort of then engaged actively with the camera and the lens.
• 58:48
  Sophie Darlington: Um, so CN20, CN7 as well.
• 58:51
  Sophie Darlington: Um you know, both.
• 58:54
  Sophie Darlington: Um, but that's for I am a long lens specialist.
• 58:58
  Sophie Darlington: That's what I've done for 30 years.
• 59:00
  Sophie Darlington: That is no longer something that I think people can get away with.
• 59:04
  Sophie Darlington: Everyone now has to be able to go on a Ronin, sh work a drone, do long lens, master of all trades.
• 59:12
  Sophie Darlington: Um, there's another, by the way, word, master, a master.
• 59:16
  Sophie Darlington: Couldn't really be a mistress of all trades.
• 59:18
  David McClelland: No, I was just thinking that.
• 59:19
  David McClelland: That wouldn't really go well.
• 59:20
  David McClelland: No.
• 59:20
  David McClelland: A ja a jackalin of all trades, maybe a a Jackie of all trades.
• 59:25
  David McClelland: I don't know.
• 59:25
  David McClelland: I don't know.
• 59:26
  Sophie Darlington: Yeah, well, or just we just we we I've I think we've all chosen master to be for everyone.
• 59:31
  Sophie Darlington: But yeah, so it I'm a long lenser, but if I was shooting on a gimbal, on a six, you know, on a six-axis gimbal, on a Cineflex, a shot over, you would work with um uh that is a stabilized lens, and you work with a sort of PlayStation setup.
• 59:46
  Sophie Darlington: Um, with you know, you um underwater, it's completely different.
• 59:51
  Sophie Darlington: You know, w the the tools that are coming into our um that are coming into Wild Knife now are changing it hugely.
• 59:59
  Sophie Darlington: They're democratizing it hugely.
• 1:00:02
  Sophie Darlington: It's much more affordable.
• 1:00:04
  Sophie Darlington: Um, the editing software is more affordable.
• 1:00:06
  Sophie Darlington: Everybody now can make their own films, which is incredible.
• 1:00:10
  Sophie Darlington: I love that.
• 1:00:12
  David McClelland: It's access to the subject and it's also frankly, getting out of the studio and then going for everyone has the ability to make their own films, but actually going out there and doing it is is is a step that isn't a given necessarily.
• 1:00:29
  David McClelland: People still need to go out with that intent.
• 1:00:32
  Sophie Darlington: You have to want to tell a story, and I think that's why it always starts with story, David.
• 1:00:37
  Sophie Darlington: It must always start with story.
• 1:00:38
  Sophie Darlington: It can't it can't start with a whim.
• 1:00:40
  Sophie Darlington: Or or it's maybe it starts with a creature, and it doesn't have to be an elephant.
• 1:00:44
  Sophie Darlington: You know, it can be a cow.
• 1:00:46
  Sophie Darlington: Don't make it a cow, that's my show.
• 1:00:49
  Sophie Darlington: But um it's it's you know, it can be um something tiny.
• 1:00:55
  Sophie Darlington: It can be magpies in your garden.
• 1:00:57
  Sophie Darlington: It can be anything as long as you can think of a way uh that you're gonna tell the story that you want to tell.
• 1:01:04
  Sophie Darlington: And um there's a show on uh YouTube at the moment called Listers, which is about extreme bird watching.
• 1:01:10
  Sophie Darlington: Not my thing, but they've made a show about you know, um, where they go and just like they're trying to count off as many birds as possible.
• 1:01:17
  Sophie Darlington: It's these two, I think brothers.
• 1:01:19
  Sophie Darlington: And um it's had over two million views on YouTube, you know.
• 1:01:23
  Sophie Darlington: It's and it's just making your own stuff, I think now, and which is kind of there's a freedom to that, you know, and not going, oh, I have to do it as we've always done it.
• 1:01:35
  David McClelland: Final question on the on the on the filming piece, I think.
• 1:01:39
  David McClelland: And maybe this is a bit of uh but behind the scenes secrecy, but not everyone really knows the answer to this, I think, which is why I want to ask it.
• 1:01:48
  David McClelland: What about sound?
• 1:01:49
  David McClelland: When you're at the end of a very long lens and your choosing of speed.
• 1:01:54
  David McClelland: Right, yes, indeed.
• 1:01:57
  David McClelland: So what are you doing as a filmmaker, if anything, to try and capture some sort of uh some sort of atmosphere if not able to capture the sound of of your subject and it's what whatever it is that it's doing.
• 1:02:14
  Sophie Darlington: It's a whole new podcast for you.
• 1:02:16
  Sophie Darlington: Um there is the most amazing people who do post on sound because we're shooting and I'll bounce from anything from one frame a second up to as many frames as I can get, whatever I'm working on.
• 1:02:28
  Sophie Darlington: If it's on a phantom, I'll go up to six or seven hundred.
• 1:02:31
  Sophie Darlington: Um, but on the ARI, I'll be anywhere between 28 and 70.
• 1:02:36
  Sophie Darlington: And that means that your sound is not synced, right?
• 1:02:40
  Sophie Darlington: It means that um Roll Steiman, excellent long lens cameraman, cinematographer from Germany, when he's filming birds, he'll f film a snippet at 24 with audio on so people know what the bird sounds like.
• 1:02:54
  Sophie Darlington: That you can't do that when a line's having a fight because you're filming it at whatever, you know, whatever speed you're filming at.
• 1:03:02
  Sophie Darlington: So it's all done in post by these people who know, and they have a bank of sound.
• 1:03:09
  Sophie Darlington: We also have sound recorders, depending on the budget of the project, who come out with us and then it all gets done.
• 1:03:15
  Sophie Darlington: It's fixed in post.
• 1:03:16
  Sophie Darlington: Or it gets done by Foley.
• 1:03:18
  Sophie Darlington: There's someone you know munching on an orange or putting their hands through, you know, baking powder.
• 1:03:24
  David McClelland: Cornflower, sorry.
• 1:03:25
  David McClelland: I think you're absolutely right there.
• 1:03:28
  David McClelland: I might take that idea and pitch it around somewhere, the kind of Foley podcast.
• 1:03:31
  David McClelland: I'm sure there must be a Foley Artist podcast somewhere.
• 1:03:33
  David McClelland: If not, then I think that's a great idea.
• 1:03:36
  Sophie Darlington: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 1:03:38
  David McClelland: Just as we start to wrap up our conversation and we've spoken about what things are like, how things have changed, your your feelings towards your work.
• 1:03:46
  David McClelland: Um you've worked on all kinds of programs, worked with all kinds of animals, not cows yet, but watch this space.
• 1:03:53
  David McClelland: Um is there anything that you're looking for in your work now?
• 1:03:58
  David McClelland: Is it the same now as it was 25, 30 years ago?
• 1:04:04
  David McClelland: And maybe what's different?
• 1:04:05
  David McClelland: I So I I guess what I'm asking really is what are you looking for now?
• 1:04:09
  David McClelland: Is it new behaviors, new interactions, is it new technical shots, is it new stories to tell?
• 1:04:15
  David McClelland: What what floats your boat right now?
• 1:04:18
  Sophie Darlington: Stories.
• 1:04:19
  Sophie Darlington: Um yes, what floats my boat?
• 1:04:22
  Sophie Darlington: I won't be engaged, um, I won't work on a project that doesn't do something to address the climate crisis anymore.
• 1:04:30
  Sophie Darlington: Um, however, that comes.
• 1:04:31
  Sophie Darlington: And it doesn't have to be gloom and doom, but it just has to do something.
• 1:04:35
  Sophie Darlington: It has to have a positive impact.
• 1:04:38
  Sophie Darlington: Um, and impact, I think, is a huge word for us all in the industry now.
• 1:04:43
  Sophie Darlington: It's what we do, what what effect and impact does it have, what legacy does it leave, whether that's in the camera work and um in the in the way like we made Queens, where um Faith Musembi had this wonderful line because she was on in front of camera in the final episode, which I is one of my favorite episodes, actually.
• 1:05:04
  Sophie Darlington: I love it.
• 1:05:04
  Sophie Darlington: It's all about the behind the behind the scenes, um, behind the queens.
• 1:05:09
  Sophie Darlington: And she said representation doesn't matter, doesn't just matter, it's everything.
• 1:05:14
  Sophie Darlington: So it's in the way we tell our stories, how we tell our stories, including voices that haven't been included, but it's also the impact we leave behind.
• 1:05:23
  Sophie Darlington: What are we doing?
• 1:05:24
  Sophie Darlington: We're spending weeks, months, years with animals.
• 1:05:28
  Sophie Darlington: What are we doing to make their um and landscapes, what are we doing to help preserve them, conserve them, actively engage people in them?
• 1:05:37
  Sophie Darlington: Um, so that's my thing is that I want to make sure that everything I do, whether it's done with humor or um um or with heart, is done with purpose.
• 1:05:50
  David McClelland: On impact, you'll be making an impact when you come to Birmingham in March for the photography and video show, the in-person event.
• 1:05:59
  David McClelland: Uh, you're going to be involved in a couple of panels there, I think.
• 1:06:03
  David McClelland: What I I I know it's still months away, but are you able to share anything about what you will be hoping, what what impact you will be hoping to have through your uh engagement with the audience and your fellow panelists there?
• 1:06:18
  Sophie Darlington: I love I love the idea of coming to Birmingham and doing the show because I've never done one before.
• 1:06:23
  Sophie Darlington: And it's been with like-minded people who are absolutely just they love cameras, they love what they do.
• 1:06:30
  Sophie Darlington: Um, we're all enhanced by light and and and and it's magic.
• 1:06:35
  Sophie Darlington: And I'm looking forward to engaging with them.
• 1:06:36
  Sophie Darlington: I'm looking forward to asking questions as well.
• 1:06:39
  Sophie Darlington: I I believe that we touched on it, but this whole idea of these phones, um, have they taken away our respect for you know taking pictures, whether that's of humans of animals?
• 1:06:55
  Sophie Darlington: Um have we forgotten that we're animals?
• 1:06:59
  Sophie Darlington: Are we um I I I really revel in the fact that I'm far away from an animal and I let it do what it does naturally without getting engaged or involved, and it hopefully doesn't know I'm there, and if it does know I'm there, it doesn't care.
• 1:07:15
  Sophie Darlington: Um I'm seeing more and more where I go, people doing the opposite of that.
• 1:07:21
  Sophie Darlington: Are they are we putting the shot before the welfare of the animal?
• 1:07:25
  David McClelland: Sophie Darlington, ASC.
• 1:07:26
  David McClelland: We haven't spoken about the ASC, ASC thing.
• 1:07:29
  David McClelland: No, no, I'm I'm gonna make sure we do.
• 1:07:31
  David McClelland: I'm gonna make sure we do, because this is 2025 news.
• 1:07:34
  David McClelland: I was gonna wrap up the conversation there, but I have to ask you about this American Society of Cinematographers.
• 1:07:40
  David McClelland: That's that's a thing for for people who don't necessarily know what that what that means, what what does it mean?
• 1:07:47
  David McClelland: Uh uh and what does it mean to you to have the ASC after your name?
• 1:07:51
  David McClelland: I can see on the screen right now, Sophie Darlington ASC.
• 1:07:56
  Sophie Darlington: I'm really proud of it.
• 1:07:57
  Sophie Darlington: I am really proud of it because it's um it's a phenomenal honour to be invited to be amongst the world's best cinematographers.
• 1:08:07
  Sophie Darlington: It is it's everybody I've ever admired, Chivo, Deacons, you just they're all there.
• 1:08:14
  Sophie Darlington: Rachel Morrison, you know, it's like they're all in it.
• 1:08:18
  Sophie Darlington: And um I was the um I had the honor of being invited as the first dedicated wildlife cinematographer this year to be a part of it.
• 1:08:27
  Sophie Darlington: And that for me is such a glorious moment for wildlife filmmaking because our craft is being recognized by the dons by the absolute best, and it gives us a biggest voice and uh arena.
• 1:08:42
  David McClelland: And back to platform a platform and back to impact if that empowers you to make and eat to uh enable change to have more of an impact and create more.
• 1:08:55
  David McClelland: And I don't again, we we can talk about legacy another time, maybe in Birmingham.
• 1:08:59
  David McClelland: But if it means that you can have more of an impact and enable more change, then great.
• 1:09:04
  David McClelland: More power to you.
• 1:09:06
  David McClelland: Thank you.
• 1:09:07
  David McClelland: Sophie Darlington, ASC.
• 1:09:10
  David McClelland: Thank you for joining us.
• 1:09:11
  David McClelland: Look forward to seeing you in Birmingham in March.
• 1:09:14
  Sophie Darlington: Can't wait, David.
• 1:09:15
  Sophie Darlington: Thanks so much.
• 1:09:15
  Sophie Darlington: Cheers.
• 1:09:19
  David McClelland: Big thanks again to Sophie.
• 1:09:20
  David McClelland: Links to her website and her socials in the show notes.
• 1:09:24
  David McClelland: And yes, what an absolute thrill that Sophie will be joining us at the in-person photography and video show at the NEC in Birmingham in March.
• 1:09:31
  David McClelland: Continuing with this month's wildlife and conservation theme, the 2025 Nick on Comedy Wildlife Photography Award winners are being announced any day now, depending on when you're watching, listening to this.
• 1:09:44
  David McClelland: And we love the images that make their way around the internet every year because of this fantastic event.
• 1:09:51
  David McClelland: So we thought, well, what if we could speak to the person who made it all happen in the first place?
• 1:09:57
  David McClelland: Paul Joynson Hicks joining us from Arusha in Tanzania.
• 1:10:04
  David McClelland: Wow, I don't know that we've ever had anyone on the show all the way from East Africa before.
• 1:10:09
  David McClelland: Thank you for for joining us.
• 1:10:11
  David McClelland: Uh the Nikon Comedy Wildlife Photography Awards.
• 1:10:15
  David McClelland: What what are they?
• 1:10:16
  David McClelland: The clues in the name, but I guess how did they how did they come about and what role did you play in them?
• 1:10:22
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Um well, thank you very much for having me from Arusha in Tanzania.
• 1:10:26
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So I am a wildlife photographer and I have been for many years, and I moved from Darasalam, where I used to live, up to Arusha to be nearer the wildlife, you know, 15 years ago or so.
• 1:10:41
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And uh I I had done a bunch of sort of social enterprise work in Dart and with people, and then I was looking at what I could do in Arusha in and in my sphere of work, which is wildlife, and I thought that it was about time to do something uh for conservation.
• 1:11:01
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And, you know, because obviously, you know, increasingly, you know, wildlife, wild areas are becoming more pressurized, habitats are being destroyed, there's a lot of poaching going on all over the world.
• 1:11:13
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: I mean, all the messaging is really sad.
• 1:11:16
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: It's really tragic.
• 1:11:18
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And, you know, we we all know that.
• 1:11:20
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And and and and when I was thinking about it, I was thinking, oh my god, what can I do?
• 1:11:24
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: It's all so tragic.
• 1:11:25
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And then I find myself going off and sitting on my veranda and having a whiskey and not doing anything because I'm feeling really sad.
• 1:11:32
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And, you know, there's there is no hope for our world.
• 1:11:36
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And uh and so then I thought, well, because I'm basically a naively positive human being, I thought, no, no, come on, there's got to be something we can do to, you know, create awareness about conservation, wildlife, habitat, all that sort of thing, but positively.
• 1:11:56
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And so when I was thinking about that, I thought about an exhibition I'd had recently.
• 1:12:00
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And you know, I had these amazing giant, fine art black and whites on the wall, you know, all over the place, and it was beautiful and stunning.
• 1:12:09
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And then I had a few little vignettes of funny pictures, you know, around the edges.
• 1:12:14
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And within a nanosecond, those pictures sell at an exhibition.
• 1:12:20
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: They just sold.
• 1:12:20
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: I mean, within people coming through the door, bang, bang, bang.
• 1:12:23
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Obviously, they're a bit cheaper, but basically they really appealed to people.
• 1:12:26
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So I thought, well, huh.
• 1:12:27
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So hang on a second, I'm not the only one with an archive of wildlife pictures.
• 1:12:32
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So so, you know, maybe other people have funny animal pictures from the wild.
• 1:12:37
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So uh so I thought, well, how do we get them all together?
• 1:12:42
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And so that thus uh I gave birth to the Comedy Wildlife Photography Awards, you know, ten years ago.
• 1:12:50
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And um and so and I was sitting in this little office in Arusha, and it was really funny because amazing what you can do.
• 1:12:57
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: I have great friends who have an internet company, so they were very kind setting up the website.
• 1:13:03
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Uh, and then another great friend of mine uh for many years is Kate Humble, who uh she's one of the judges, isn't she?
• 1:13:11
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: She's one of the judges, and she's uh uh both a TV presenter but also uh a writer, and so she knew the telegraph travel editor, and she said, Oh, let me give him a rung.
• 1:13:23
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So when when I opened, uh you know, I sent the message out as far and wide as I could, and then I got a few images in, and then she did an article with the Telegraph Online, and then you know, literally from there it snowballed, and because you know, the whole world apparently looks at British media, and so when you know, when they saw those funny pictures, they said, Oh, we want them, we want them, we didn't want.
• 1:13:49
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So suddenly I was sitting in my office just pinging these funny pictures out to news, news, blogs, things all over the world.
• 1:13:56
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And so basically that's that's how it started.
• 1:13:59
  David McClelland: So fast forward ten years from the first idea and and those images selling very, very quickly to where you are now, almost 10,000 entrants.
• 1:14:09
  David McClelland: I bel I understand this year, lots of lots of categories.
• 1:14:13
  David McClelland: Tell me for from your point of view what this has morphed into and the stage that we're at right now.
• 1:14:18
  David McClelland: This podcast will be going out right at the beginning of December 2025, just a few days before the big announcement of the winners uh is made.
• 1:14:28
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:14:29
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So that's obviously super duper exciting, and uh and I and you know, we have our exhibition in the Oxo Towers, and it's uh and it's just uh I mean it's fantastic, and it's a really fun evening, you know, and uh um Yeah, and I suppose I suppose ten years on, the seeing the coverage we get around the world and you know, it's uh I mean it's it's phenomenal and it's uh you know it's exciting and and I so and I hope that some of our kind of ideas and messages can come across.
• 1:15:08
  David McClelland: So what do you think it is then about this genre that captures the public and the media's uh imagination?
• 1:15:15
  David McClelland: Because you know as well as I do, practically every media outlet just loves these images.
• 1:15:22
  David McClelland: I think because consumers obviously love it as well.
• 1:15:25
  David McClelland: And then taking it beyond that, what beyond the entertainment, beyond the human, uh beyond the humor factor, how do these awards then go on to promote wildlife?
• 1:15:36
  David McClelland: You know, what what's the what's the good that they do beyond providing the entertainment?
• 1:15:43
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Well, I think I think the so the first question, why why do people love it?
• 1:15:48
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: It's it's positive.
• 1:15:50
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: It is positive, pure and simply it's positive.
• 1:15:54
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And not only positive, it it takes it to a whole new level of positive, you know, which is it's funny, it's humour, and and it's not humour at anyone's at any person falling over, it's not it's not anything to do with people, it's the purest form of humor, it's sort of wild humour in within nature.
• 1:16:15
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And and I think that's that's why people really love it, because it's it's you know, it has a sense of purity, maybe, but it's you know, fundamentally it's just funny and people love it.
• 1:16:28
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And they they they feel righteous loving it, because there's nothing there's nothing not to feel righteous about it, if you see what I mean.
• 1:16:36
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And so and so people just love it.
• 1:16:38
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: It's it's I think also there's elements of because as a species, the human race is really, really rubbish.
• 1:16:47
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So we're a really, really rubbish race.
• 1:16:49
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So if you look at nature all over, then then the animal kingdom is basically does everything right, and we tend not to.
• 1:16:59
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And so, you know, so when you see animals apparently failing, which obviously they're not, but apparently it looks like it, people people quite f f find that quite funny, and I think it makes them feel better about themselves as well.
• 1:17:12
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Um so so I think that's why people like it.
• 1:17:17
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And then I think your second question, you know, how how is the awards doing its thing?
• 1:17:22
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And I think through that point, the the positivity I think if you if you take t two different images, for example, you take a picture of a rhino that's had its it's been slaughtered, it's had its uh its horns you know removed by poachers and it's lying there dead in a pool of blood, and then you take a picture of a tern with a bunch of reeds over its face, like one of our finalists this year.
• 1:17:53
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: You know, one's gonna make you cry and one's gonna make you laugh.
• 1:17:56
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And so I think uh I think that if even a tiny morsel of the people who enjoy our pictures, if a tiny morsel of them will connect with wildlife, uh, you know, then think, well, what can I do to help my uh to help my wildlife community in my area, or you know, can what can I do?
• 1:18:20
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: I think the then we're succeeding.
• 1:18:22
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And I think with the billions of views that we get each year, hopefully a very s a small part of that is working.
• 1:18:28
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And I think that the the the positive energy that comes from funny pictures invigorates as opposed to innovates.
• 1:18:37
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And I think if you're invigorated, you get off your ass and you do something, you know.
• 1:18:42
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And so hopefully there's a tiny morsel of that happening vicariously through our competition.
• 1:18:48
  David McClelland: And more of that as well.
• 1:18:49
  David McClelland: I understand that the Whitley Fund for Nature as well is a recipient of a portion of the profits from the competition.
• 1:18:58
  David McClelland: Uh, what kind of work does the Whitley Fund for Nature do?
• 1:19:01
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Uh so Whitley Fund um is a fantastic organization that supports grassroots conservation entrepreneurs, if you like.
• 1:19:09
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So they're they're all local people in all these world areas and they get an award uh for the work that they're doing.
• 1:19:17
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And that award is consistent in terms of a grant and it helps fund their work.
• 1:19:23
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So, you know, we're obviously not a huge cash machine, but what we can do is hopefully support them through a little bit of exposure.
• 1:19:32
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Obviously a little bit of cash, but a little bit of exposure or a lot of exposure to hopefully spread their news, spread the word.
• 1:19:40
  David McClelland: I'm looking right now at some of the finalists this year, uh, and you mentioned the turn there.
• 1:19:46
  David McClelland: I'm looking at some uh Gilmots here, uh, a wonderful image by Warren Price.
• 1:19:51
  David McClelland: Squirrels do pretty well in this competition, it's fair to say.
• 1:19:55
  David McClelland: And I'm looking at uh Stefan Kreuzberg's image, uh, an airborne squirrel in surrender mode just there.
• 1:20:02
  David McClelland: I mean, I guess first of all, what is it about squirrels?
• 1:20:04
  David McClelland: But just to broaden the question perhaps a little bit more, what is it that you feel makes a successful comedy wildlife photograph?
• 1:20:15
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Uh that's a great question.
• 1:20:16
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So we get a bunch of different species that are really common, squirrels obviously being one of them, and and also the nice thing about squirrels is they can happen in your backyard.
• 1:20:24
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: I think what it is, it's if and if you look at those pictures, you know, you you can see it's it's the anthropomorphization of the wildlife.
• 1:20:36
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: You know, whether it's um one of my favorites is Grayson's frogs, uh, for example, you know, I've got obviously many favourites, but one of them is it's just so funny because it looks like it looks like one frog waterboarding another frog.
• 1:20:51
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Which obviously, uh, you know, it's not his caption.
• 1:20:54
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: His caption is as an unwilling baptism.
• 1:20:56
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: But uh, you know, you can see that uh that I think it's it's all about making this wildlife look like people and doing funny people-like things, you know, that we can relate to.
• 1:21:11
  David McClelland: I guess the question there is is there a is there a danger in any way that you can think of as regards this anthropomorphosization, if that if I've said that word right, but you know what I mean, uh of the animals here.
• 1:21:24
  David McClelland: Because animals are animals, wildlife is wildlife, they are absolutely not humans.
• 1:21:29
  David McClelland: Yet you're absolutely right.
• 1:21:30
  David McClelland: The connection that makes these images work is that they are kind of being humanized in a way.
• 1:21:36
  David McClelland: But is is there a danger in kind of almost deliberately taking what these animals are doing out of context?
• 1:21:45
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: I think I think if I think Well, no, is the short answer.
• 1:21:48
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: But I think if you if you look at them, I think that the thing is there's so much wildlife imagery out there which is sensible and serious and beautiful.
• 1:21:58
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And I think ours is such a such a small portion of that, although obviously very widely seen, um, which uh I'm obviously very thankful for.
• 1:22:08
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: But I think the I think you know what could be the danger of that?
• 1:22:12
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Because if you see our picture and you're going off on safari next week and you see a cheetah looking like, you know, it's hiding or something, or lions laughing or singing, you're gonna be in a vehicle on safari in the Masaymara or the Serengeti, wherever it is.
• 1:22:30
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And you know, you're just not going to get out of the vehicle to to go and see them.
• 1:22:36
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Uh, you know, and so so in from that respect, I don't know what the danger is.
• 1:22:42
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: I think the, you know, are we projecting the wrong image of wildlife?
• 1:22:46
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: I think we're we're showing another side of it.
• 1:22:49
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And if it can it can have a positive effect of any description on conservation, then I think um no, I think it's it's a really good thing.
• 1:22:59
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And I don't think they mind.
• 1:23:03
  David McClelland: As long as the photographers act responsibly, and you know, you you've had a good number of entrants this year, and and I I'm sure that the message, particularly among those who are engaged in wildlife photography, either as professionals or as uh enthusiasts, is respect, respect the wildlife, respect the context, respect the environment.
• 1:23:23
  David McClelland: Uh what happens next?
• 1:23:24
  David McClelland: So, as I said, this podcast will be uh released at the beginning of December, and that's just around the corner from the big day.
• 1:23:32
  David McClelland: So uh what happens with the awards and how can people then go and go on and see the award winning the the finalists' images?
• 1:23:44
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Um so uh we're busy completing all the judging at the moment, and then the awards will be announced, uh like we I think we were saying the 9th of December at the OXO Gallery, um at a fabulous, uh quite light-hearted, needless to say, event.
• 1:24:03
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And uh and then we will have that exhibition will be up then uh for uh I think it's um a week will the exhibition will be up there.
• 1:24:12
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So anyone can go there who's in London, or you can see it online on our website or socials, um, and of course it'll be in the media.
• 1:24:20
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Thanks to you, Lot.
• 1:24:22
  David McClelland: We will make sure that we put all of the links and all of the details in the show notes for this episode.
• 1:24:27
  David McClelland: My final question to you, Paul, is what your advice would be to a photographer, amateur or otherwise, who's considering putting forward an entry for a 2026 comedy wildlife photography competition.
• 1:24:42
  David McClelland: Based on your curation over the last decade or so of these awards, someone's looking at doing something next year, they've been inspired by what's happened this year.
• 1:24:53
  David McClelland: What would you say to them?
• 1:24:55
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: I think it's very simple, really.
• 1:24:57
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So the first and the most fundamental thing, and this is for any wildlife photographer comedy or otherwise, is just to get out there.
• 1:25:04
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And uh and I think it's really, really important.
• 1:25:07
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: And whether it is your squirrel in your back backyard, we had a winner actually who was a squirrel.
• 1:25:12
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So, you know, you've got deer in parks in the UK, you've got squirrels, you've got animals all over.
• 1:25:19
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: You don't have to go and photograph lions or I mean seals or polar bears or you know, anything, you know, big.
• 1:25:28
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: You can you can find it all in your back garden, your nearest park.
• 1:25:32
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So I think the first thing is get out there, that's the really important thing.
• 1:25:35
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: The second thing is just the basics of photography.
• 1:25:38
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So the single most important thing, in my humble opinion, the single most important thing for a photograph is that it's sharp.
• 1:25:47
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So your main subject is sharp.
• 1:25:48
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So so get your pictures nice and sharp, nicely exposed, and then of course nicely composed, and uh and then enter because you know, anything that you think is funny, you know, in and it's an animal and it's in the wild, obviously.
• 1:26:04
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: So no domestic, no captive creatures, um, then uh then you're in for a great chance.
• 1:26:11
  David McClelland: Great stuff.
• 1:26:12
  David McClelland: Thank you for chatting with us, Paul.
• 1:26:15
  David McClelland: Uh I wish you every success for this year's awards.
• 1:26:18
  David McClelland: I wish all of the finalists every success with uh this year's awards as well.
• 1:26:22
  David McClelland: And uh, well, hope to hope to see you in person soon, either here in the UK or wow, over there in Tanzania.
• 1:26:29
  David McClelland: But for now, thank you very much.
• 1:26:31
  Paul Joynson-Hicks: Thanks for having me.
• 1:26:35
  David McClelland: Again, links to the awards website and details of the pop-up gallery for the finalists at the OXO Tower in London are all in the show notes.
• 1:26:43
  David McClelland: And remember, the in-person photography and video show takes place at the NEC in Birmingham from Saturday, the 14th of March, to Tuesday, the 17th of March, 2026.
• 1:26:55
  David McClelland: We spoke on last month's podcast with Bill Ward.
• 1:26:58
  David McClelland: He'll be there, along with landscape legend Charlie Waite, fine art macro photographer Daniel Orquire, and of course, now friend of the show too, wildlife cinematographer Sophie Darlington, ASC.
• 1:27:10
  David McClelland: And uh many, many, many, many, many more.
• 1:27:13
  David McClelland: It's gonna be an absolutely packed four days.
• 1:27:16
  David McClelland: So head over to photography show.com for tickets, which are now available.
• 1:27:22
  David McClelland: And if you are a professional photographer, filmmaker, or content creator, then you can apply for free entry to the show.
• 1:27:30
  David McClelland: Full details on the website photography show.com.
• 1:27:33
  David McClelland: And joining me in next month's podcast that's coming out at the beginning of January 2026.
• 1:27:39
  David McClelland: That will be someone from the photography and video show event team.
• 1:27:43
  David McClelland: So we want your questions, please.
• 1:27:46
  David McClelland: Your questions, your comments, your suggestions, whatever.
• 1:27:49
  David McClelland: What do you want me to put to them to ask the events team?
• 1:27:53
  David McClelland: Drop us a line on the socials at Instagram, uh at at the photography show.
• 1:27:58
  David McClelland: I am at David McClelland TV on Instagram.
• 1:28:01
  David McClelland: DM us if you like.
• 1:28:02
  David McClelland: You can hook up on Facebook too, and you can send us a good old-fashioned text message.
• 1:28:07
  David McClelland: Just tap on the link in our show notes.
• 1:28:10
  David McClelland: But that is all for now.
• 1:28:11
  David McClelland: We'll be back next month.
• 1:28:12
  David McClelland: We'll be back next year, gosh, January 2026, with more photography and filmmaking news and chat.
• 1:28:19
  David McClelland: But for now, from all of us here, have a Merry Christmas, have a good new year, see you in 2026.